Let me see if this can come together. Spirit= of God... God is Spirit Joh 4:24 God is Spirit;
Im trying to start a topic that seperates what a soul is and a body is, and this is what I come to face with.
Lev 21:11 Neither shall he go in to any deadH4191=mûth(to die)
H5315 body,=nephesh(a breathing creature),
The body is BETH a container; it is the vessel that contains the living creature, a creature/human being that could in no way get past the atom and its first twinkle with out the SPIRIT OF GOD! If the Spirit of God does not move, enlighten, energize, something, anything, then that house or vessel, or container could not CAN NOT go forth, so it is with us the human being, should GOD quit putting His Energy(Spirit) into vessels of clay..that vessel would not have a soul, it would lay dormant, useless, void, WITHOUT energy, usless, sorry. Praise God! Praise God!
:cloud9: Micah, you can believe what you want, but if you miss this vital precept that is all through the bible from Genesis to Revelation, you have come to a stumbling block..... :2c:
Micah, you can believe what you want, but if you miss this vital precept that is all through the bible from Genesis to Revelation, you have come to a stumbling block.....
"this vital precept"
What precept is this vital precept?
AND I do not wish or desire to believe what I want, I desire the spirit and truth of His WORD. And then, and well, just what is it that I believe,"as I want?" What are you telling me anyway? What is the "vital precept," that is all through Genesis to Revelation?
Yes...I have come to a stumbling block, please help. Thank You.
Peace and Love Through Jesus
"but if you miss this vital precept that is all through the bible from Genesis to Revelation" part of a quote from Cardnial.
What is this vital precept? What is it that I have missed, a thread that weaves through Genesis to Revelation? I really want to know!
:cloud9: Soul and spirit as being separate things that are made to come into union. It's the same precept as when He separated the light (spirit) from the darkness (soul). He separates, to cleanse the motive of it, refines it, and brings it back into union with the Spirit. The resurrection IS the union of soul and Spirit. Blessings...
Hi Micah, this is what I believe.
The body is simply a physical vessel that contains spiritual "me" for this earthly life. When we die, it returns to earth/dust.
Spirit is the breath of life that God breaths into all physical beings - it animates the earthly body and it returns to God when we die.
Soul is "ego," the individual, "me." At judgment it is either utterly destroyed forevermore, or it enters into the presence of the LORD forevermore.
Quote from: LS on July 18, 2010, 07:18:15 PM
Hi Micah, this is what I believe.
The body is simply a physical vessel that contains spiritual "me" for this earthly life. When we die, it returns to earth/dust.
Spirit is the breath of life that God breaths into all physical beings - it animates the earthly body and it returns to God when we die.
Soul is "ego," the individual, "me." At judgment it is either utterly destroyed forevermore, or it enters into the presence of the LORD forevermore.
This is where I am also :thumbsup: . But I am not sure what the difference is between an Adam type person who is spiritually dead, (let the dead bury their dead) and a spiritually alive person who is born again as a believer in Jesus christ. I think that the spiritually dead persons (all in Adam), go to sleep in the dust, have no knowledge of love or have no thought, and perhaps have a tiny spark of life in them that allows, e.g Samuel to temporary "wake up" and appear to Saul, but then goes back to sleep. But for the believer I think its possible that they may have a spiritual life with the lord, he that beliveth on me shall never die, beliveth thou this. To thief "today thou shall be with me in paradise"
Until their bodies are resurected with their spirit, which then becomes a soul, fit for heaven and are as the angels of heaven.
But I would not be suprised if even believers did not have any life until the resurection and that the spirit that goes to God is some kind of "Hard disk" that stores the persons experience, "works" and energies, which will be put back into the resurected body>soul at the last trumpet day of resurection.
Works being the things that the beliver did in jesus name, verily he that giveth a cup of water shall not lose his reward in heaven.
Quote from: thinktank on July 18, 2010, 07:52:59 PM
I think that the spiritually dead persons (all in Adam), go to sleep in the dust, have no knowledge of love or have no thought,
Body=dust.
Quote from: thinktank on July 18, 2010, 07:52:59 PM
Until their bodies are resurected with their spirit, which then becomes a soul, fit for heaven and are as the angels of heaven.
I'm not sure the bodies are ever resurrected - we are told we are given new spiritual bodies.
I think its Paul that say them that sleep in the dust shall awaken. Then this mortal shall put on immortality, the corrupt shall become uncorrupt.
If you look at Lazarus a shadow of the resurection, he comes forth by the voice of Jesus, and retains his grave clothes (flesh corruption) but is loosed from them. (incorruption)
Even after Lazarus was rotting, Jesus brought him back to life.
Quote from: thinktank on July 18, 2010, 08:44:23 PM
I think its Paul that say them that sleep in the dust shall awaken. Then this mortal shall put on immortality, the corrupt shall become uncorrupt.
I don't know if that means the bodies will be resurrected, though. I tend to think that believers are immediately taken to His presence when the body dies. The soul of all others "sleeps" until the Matthew judgment of goats & sheep - when Paul says that those asleep in the dust shall awaken. Do the bodies need to be resurrected for this judgment? I don't think so, necessarily.
I'm not hardcore in my beliefs here, though - I think we are told just enough to give us hope and comfort, but not too much so we don't get ahead of ourselves and so that we "keep our head in the game" here on earth, so to speak.
Quote from: Cardinal on July 18, 2010, 12:23:11 PM
:cloud9: Soul and spirit as being separate things that are made to come into union. It's the same precept as when He separated the light (spirit) from the darkness (soul). He separates, to cleanse the motive of it, refines it, and brings it back into union with the Spirit. The resurrection IS the union of soul and Spirit. Blessings...
Well Glory we agree, He seperates and then He RE-news, RE stores, RE generates.
:cloud9: :laughing7: :thumbsup:
Here is my thought, I believe that to much is put on the poor "soul" as being more that it is which is a living creature. I believe that when we talk about soul this and soul that, what we really mean is the self, the ego. I believe that this is what the dead old man was all about, that living creature-man-soul. It was the self, the ego, an awakened mind (the rib? of Gen. 2 thats just how I understand it) that was tempted after seeing and desiring, that ate of the knowledge of good and bad. The soul-living creature is the body impowered by the spirit that carries the ego around.
The only place I find the combination of "soul of man" is Roman 2:9 (KJV) here are several translations that I contend render it properly.
Should all the translations read this way, I believe much would be cleared up about the fuzzy meaning of what a soul is.
9. pressure (affliction; trouble.; tribulation) and squeezed narrowness (tight restriction; distress; anguish) upon every soul of mankind which is persistently in himself working down and effecting the bad (the worthless; the evil; the injurious; the bad situation; the worthless quality; the malicious intent) -- both of a Jew, first, and also of a Greek (one of the Hellenist culture); (Johnathan Mitchell)
Rom 2:9 And tribulation and anguish [will be] to every man that doeth evil; to the Jews first, and also to the Gentiles: (Murdock 1851)
rdock 1851
Rom 2:9 crushing distress and anguish, every human soul of them that actually does what is wrong—the Jew first, and the Greek also (Goodspeed)
oodspeed
Rom 2:9 will fall upon every human being who persists in wrong-doing—upon the Jew first, but also upon the Greek. ( Malan)
alan
Rom 2:9 and affliction and distress, upon every man who worketh evils; to Jihudoyee first, and to Aramoyee; ( Etheridge)
eridge
Peace and Love Through Jesus
Is there something in these two verses that speak of a seperating? Or am I seeing nothing? The word FIRE jumps out at me!
Heb 4:12 for the reckoning of God is living, and working, and sharp above every two-edged sword, and piercing unto the dividing asunder both of soul and spirit, of joints also and marrow, and a discerner of thoughts and intents of the heart;
Mat 10:28 `And be not afraid of those killing the body, and are not able to kill the soul, but fear rather Him who is able both soul and body to destroy in gehenna.
Micah, to simplify things for you, the Jews believe that we have an animal soul and a human soul. :icon_jokercolor:
Good night :lazy: :snor:
:cloud9: :laughing7:
Quote from: micah7:9 on July 19, 2010, 12:06:20 AM
Is there something in these two verses that speak of a seperating? Or am I seeing nothing? The word FIRE jumps out at me!
Heb 4:12 for the reckoning of God is living, and working, and sharp above every two-edged sword, and piercing unto the dividing asunder both of soul and spirit, of joints also and marrow, and a discerner of thoughts and intents of the heart;
Mat 10:28 `And be not afraid of those killing the body, and are not able to kill the soul, but fear rather Him who is able both soul and body to destroy in gehenna.
To me since the soul is a living creature, then destroying this soul in gehenna means that God will not give the soul a resurection. For unlike man who can kill the body, but then don't have any more power. But God on the other hand has power to raise people from the dead and if "he" alone has this power, then respect this person called God, for he will have mercy on whom he have mercy.
:cloud9: Yes, He says to fear Him who hath the power to kill both body AND soul in Gehenna.....being put to death is not a bad thing if you lay your life down, though. Blessings...
There is a part in the book of revelation where , there are souls under the altar, there must be a mistranslation or perhaps, everyone who is martyred will be resurected immiediately. :dontknow:
:cloud9: It's not a mistranslation. Back up a chapter and you see these are those that are REDEEMED from every nation, kindred, tribe, ect. Those are men who laid their souls on the altar, making of themselves a living sacrifice.
The altar had a grate; the only way under it was to become as ashes/consumed. For ashes He gives us beauty, the beauty of Christ. We "tie" our souls, to the 4 corners of the altar, which has horns on it, tied down with cords of love that cannot be broken. Paul calls this our reasonable service. Blessings....
Quote from: Cardinal on July 19, 2010, 12:46:15 AM
:cloud9: It's not a mistranslation. Back up a chapter and you see these are those that are REDEEMED from every nation, kindred, tribe, ect. Those are men who laid their souls on the altar, making of themselves a living sacrifice.
The altar had a grate; the only way under it was to become as ashes/consumed. For ashes He gives us beauty, the beauty of Christ. We "tie" our souls, to the 4 corners of the altar, which has horns on it, tied down with cords of love that cannot be broken. Paul calls this our reasonable service. Blessings....
ok, it says these souls cried with a voice? Are these souls real people? or is it symbolic?
What I don't understand is that Abel when he died, it was his blood that cried out, but in Revelation, these souls are crying out?
I thought it might either be their spirits crying or that their souls were resurected after martyrdom.?
Lev 17:11 for the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you on the altar, to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood which maketh atonement for the soul.
Quote from: thinktank on July 19, 2010, 12:54:12 AM
Quote from: Cardinal on July 19, 2010, 12:46:15 AM
:cloud9: It's not a mistranslation. Back up a chapter and you see these are those that are REDEEMED from every nation, kindred, tribe, ect. Those are men who laid their souls on the altar, making of themselves a living sacrifice.
The altar had a grate; the only way under it was to become as ashes/consumed. For ashes He gives us beauty, the beauty of Christ. We "tie" our souls, to the 4 corners of the altar, which has horns on it, tied down with cords of love that cannot be broken. Paul calls this our reasonable service. Blessings....
ok, it says these souls cried with a voice? Are these souls real people? or is it symbolic?
What I don't understand is that Abel when he died, it was his blood that cried out, but in Revelation, these souls are crying out?
I thought it might either be their spirits crying or that their souls were resurected after martyrdom.?
:cloud9: I think the difference is in the fact that these were on that altar willingly, making of themselves a living sacrifice; they said how long oh Lord before our brethren will be killed as we were.
This is not the cry of vengence like Abel, but rather of wanting their brethren to experience death to self on the cross/altar, like they did, which is basically wanting them to experience the kingdom.
Abel's blood cried out from the ground because that's where his soul was because he didn't have a revelation of Christ yet, and he was murdered. The "life" in the blood of carnal man IS the soul.
So without the revelation of Christ, he was "justified" in wanting vengence on his killer, which is an awareness of law and not grace. But with the blood of Christ, which is Spirit, it speaks of better things. To speak is to give testimony, or prophesy, as a witness. Blessings...
That's a great reply card, thank you. But as to how the souls are in heaven is still a mystery. I think that they would be resurected, but the book says, the resurection happened when the sickle is placed and the earth was reaped, corresponding to the harvest of the wheat and the tares at the end of the age.
:cloud9: It's going on NOW. The souls of men are being made perfect/complete by being joined unto Christ the Lord. This is why we are seated in heavenly places. Heaven is not a destination, it's a state of being IN Christ.
John was in the Spirit (in Christ) on the Lord's day (7th day, His rest) IN the temple, whose temple we are. When Jesus walked on the water, He was walking above the waters below the firmament, ie. walking in "heaven", the firmament is called heaven. Note He told Peter to do the same, and he did.
When He spoke to Nicodemus, He basically said, I'm standing right here talking to you, but I'm in heaven.
Our conversation is to be from heaven. You can't have a conversation from a place you've never been! Being baptised in the Spirit, which is Christ, "places" part of us, in "heaven", and we speak out of that "place" things that are not lawful (or of the letter of the law) for men to speak. We speak what we have "seen", ie. perceived thru the mind of Christ that we received on the day of Pentecost.
The fire that came/comes, is the same as the fire destroying the old temple, not allowing one stone to stand upon another. It begins to take down all the man-made religious stones built by the works of flesh, in our hearts. Blessings...
Quick!
Someone help me hold Card's arms in the air!
Ah I see I think we differ on the timings. I think that what you said is true, but in terms of the context of the message where those souls are slain I belive it is talking about those who are killed by the beast, and I'm trying to figure out how is it that these living souls get resurected, before the trumpet is blown and my best conclusion is that once they are killed, they are then resurected to heaven, and are given a rest for their sacrifice. That the trumpet represents the major harvest but these souls who are matyred are given a special resurection, representing a smaller harvest before the big one.
God bless
Quote from: Beloved Servant on July 19, 2010, 11:54:21 PM
Quick!
Someone help me hold Card's arms in the air!
:banana:
Quote from: thinktank on July 19, 2010, 11:58:03 PM
Ah I see I think we differ on the timings. I think that what you said is true, but in terms of the context of the message where those souls are slain I belive it is talking about those who are killed by the beast, and I'm trying to figure out how is it that these living souls get resurected, before the trumpet is blown and my best
But they where told to rest/sleep/be dead a little more.
Quote from: WhiteWings on July 20, 2010, 12:13:16 AM
Quote from: Beloved Servant on July 19, 2010, 11:54:21 PM
Quick!
Someone help me hold Card's arms in the air!
:banana:
Why does she have a rod in her hands :laughing7:
Holy Moses
Quote from: WhiteWings on July 20, 2010, 12:15:31 AM
Quote from: thinktank on July 19, 2010, 11:58:03 PM
Ah I see I think we differ on the timings. I think that what you said is true, but in terms of the context of the message where those souls are slain I belive it is talking about those who are killed by the beast, and I'm trying to figure out how is it that these living souls get resurected, before the trumpet is blown and my best
But they where told to rest/sleep/be dead a little more.
Hmm good point, that's why I thought there maybe was a mistranslation, that it should read "spirits", instead of "souls".
Quote from: WhiteWings on July 19, 2010, 12:06:47 AM
Micah, to simplify things for you, the Jews believe that we have an animal soul and a human soul. :icon_jokercolor:
Good night :lazy: :snor:
Okay so you are saying that if the Jews say that there is a soul for animals and humans, then it is so? Thats it? Do they have any scriptures to show this is valid?
Sorry If I woke you, was not my intent.
Peace and Love Through Jesus.
I'm awake again.... 8:25
Quotethere is a soul for animals and humans
Not exactly. (if I understand you correctly)
They believe humans and animals have exactly the same soul. But humans have an
extra soul.
QuoteThe Struggle Between Our Two Souls
We are composed of not one, but two souls, the animal soul which animates the body and is focused on the desires and pleasures of the body, and the Godly soul, which yearns continually for Godliness.
The mind is a neutral ground between the animal soul and the Godly soul which are constantly battling to take control of it. If the Godly soul controls the mind and eradicates the animal soul, then the person is a tzaddik, a completely righteous person. If the animal soul takes possession and subdues the Godly soul, then the person is a rasha, a person who is driven by self-centered and egotistical drives.
A benoni is the intermediate man, a human being who is controlled by the Godly soul, yet is constantly challenged in a running battle with the darker side of his character, the animal soul. Not everyone can be a tzaddik, but every person can and should try to become a benoni. Rabbi Schneur Zalman of Liadi,teaches us that the level of the Benoni, the intermediate man is an extremely high level of refinement, and in his holy book, the Tanya, he teaches us how we can attain this level.
There is more in Gen 1 and 2 but haven't found it yet.
http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/924915/jewish/Evil-Inclination-vs-Animal-Soul.htm
http://www.inner.org/nonjews/kabbalah-for-nations-mystical-symbolism-noahide-laws-1.php
Two souls--that's not Biblical...
Num. 15:30" "ti-karet ha-nefesh" - "that person (animal soul) will surely be cut off". The use of the term "nefesh" (animal soul) instead of the higher order soul (neshamah) indicates that which is closest to the physical body and its drives - it means kill the body and the soul will be cut off in heaven as well.
Read more: http://www.prodeathpenalty.com/Judaism.htm
Hummm? http://www.kheper.net/topics/bardo/kabbalah.html Not sure this one is mainstream...
http://rabbidavidcooper.com/five-dimensions-of-the-soul-in-five-worlds.html
http://www.usajewish.com/jewish-civilization/DO_WE_HAVE_SOULS.asp
'They called the soul by five names. Nefesh, Ruach, Neshama, Yechida, Chaya. Nefesh is blood... Ruach is the spirit that rises and descends...Neshama is the personality of a person... Chaya, even if all the limbs are dead, it still survives in the body... Yechida, all limbs are in pairs but this one it remains unique.'
.....
There are three main words used in the Torah for what we call 'soul'. The first is 'ruach', spirit, which appears initially as another word to describe the presence of God 'And the spirit of YHVH was hovering over the deep'.
.....
The second word for 'soul' is ' nefesh', as in ' 'And YHVH said Let the earth produce all kinds of living souls, animals, reptiles and beasts, and it was so ' . And when forbidding the Israelites to drink blood, the Torah says ' For the life of a person ( nefesh ) is in the blood ' . Nefesh is the word used almost interchangeably with 'adam' , a person, to describe a human who comes to bring a sacrifice in the book of Leviticus . Significantly, when the Torah institutes the law of fasting on Yom Kippur, the term it uses is ' Afflicting your souls' using the word nefesh .
.....
The third word for 'soul' and the one that in the Torah ( but not in rabbinic literature ) is only used of humans, is the word ' neshama'. 'And YHVH Elohim said formed man from the dust of the ground and He breathed into his nostrils the breath ( soul ) of life.' But this breath of life does not mean that it is automatically 'good'. And so later on in the Torah, when talking about Cannanite tribes that have to be destroyed because of their corruption and the threat they present to the newcomers, the word 'neshama' is used simply to mean all living humans. 'Do not let any breathing being ( neshama ) live.'
The Torah also uses the words ' neshama' and 'ruach' together describing the destruction of life by the flood, ' Everything that had the breath of the spirit of life ( nishmat ruach ) in its nostrils that was on dry land, died ' . So the distinction between the way the two words are used is blurred and ambiguous as to whether it applies to all life or only human life.
:cloud9: Well, there is something to it, because I've read that the prohitition on eating blood was because of the life being in the blood, in the sense that the attributes of that animal nature will become part of you. The attributes are the the soul of it, spiritually.
It ties in with the woman/soul/heart with the issue of blood. We all have that issue of blood because it's what comes out of a man's mouth that defiles him, and out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks.
Thanks for the links, will check them out later.....Blessings...
QuoteThe Talmud states: "...those who are kind to cruel will one day be cruel to the kind...". This supports the concern for paroling, escaping or commuting prisoner sentences and its affect on society. Society is brutalized by the maintenance and release of such criminals, not their execution. The Talmud and its hundreds of rules for interpretation, printed in 499 CE, compiled over a period of hundreds of years before due to the fear of dispersion of the Jews, is the basic tool for all Jewish Law education. It is not well known or appreciated outside of Orthodox Jewish circles - but is definitive in such matters.
To me, this shows how they can be so completely without mercy and why they love their volumes and volumes of rules, regulations, and laws.
4For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers. --Mat 23
QuoteAgain, this Kabbalistic conception of several souls, each of which has its own specific fate after death, likewise finds connection with the Egyptian understanding. The Nefesh which "remains...in the grave, brooding over the body" can be compared with the Ka which remains in the tomb; and the Ruah ascending to the "terrestrial paradise" finds similarity with the Ba which likewise ascends to the paradisical regions, but is not yet totally free of the trials of this world.
That about sums it up--the kabbalists are getting their information from Babylon and Egypt. I feel these ideas form what the Bible calls the mystery of iniquity. If you are able to see a human as equivalent to an animal, then it is not long before human life becomes very cheap. And, it's an easy step to say, We are the higher souls--They are the animals. Man's pride would almost demand it under such a system.
Don't forget, it is not the animals who are made in God's image and likeness--it is man.
26And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
27So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. --Gen 1
QuoteBoth schemes are extremely useful; but the first mentioned is spiritual-mystical, like the comparable maps of stages of the development of consciousness in Tantra, Sufism, and Christian Mysticism, whereas the latter is more psychological, like the Freudian distinction of Id and Ego It has even been suggested that Freud got some of his ideas from Kabbalah, although I would see any similarity as coming from the "Kabbalistic" psychology being already ingrained in the popular Jewish mind, and thus be uncon-sciously transcribed, rather than direct and conscious borrowing.
This Freudian idea of an Id which follows purely animal instinct would naturally lend itself to a control of man by stressing constantly sex without love, war without honor, and family without loyalty. Sound familiar? Welcome to the created nightmare of modern society--created in the backrooms of thinktanks--for death, destruction, and control of the many by the few.
Sorry, but this angers me because of its callous disregard and dismissal of the sanctity of human life--which disregard is taught as reality until it becomes reality. :sigh:
Quote from: Molly on July 20, 2010, 11:54:24 AMThat about sums it up--the kabbalists are getting their information from Babylon and Egypt. I feel these ideas form what the Bible calls the mystery of iniquity.
And where you think
Constantinanity Christianity got their idea's?
Quote from: thinktank on July 20, 2010, 12:17:23 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings on July 20, 2010, 12:13:16 AM
Quote from: Beloved Servant on July 19, 2010, 11:54:21 PM
Quick!
Someone help me hold Card's arms in the air!
:banana:
Why does she have a rod in her hands :laughing7:
(http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:6UsIZ9fkKEwflM:http://img2.photographersdirect.com/img/91/wm/pd2463425.jpg)(//)
Quote from: WhiteWings on July 20, 2010, 12:38:58 PM
Quote from: Molly on July 20, 2010, 11:54:24 AMThat about sums it up--the kabbalists are getting their information from Babylon and Egypt. I feel these ideas form what the Bible calls the mystery of iniquity.
And where you think Constantinanity Christianity got their idea's?
From the New Testament.
Quote from: Molly on July 20, 2010, 02:11:49 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on July 20, 2010, 12:38:58 PM
Quote from: Molly on July 20, 2010, 11:54:24 AMThat about sums it up--the kabbalists are getting their information from Babylon and Egypt. I feel these ideas form what the Bible calls the mystery of iniquity.
And where you think Constantinanity Christianity got their idea's?
From the New Testament.
And the interpretation of the NT isn't influenced by external factors?
Quote from: WhiteWings on July 20, 2010, 03:05:09 PM
Quote from: Molly on July 20, 2010, 02:11:49 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on July 20, 2010, 12:38:58 PM
Quote from: Molly on July 20, 2010, 11:54:24 AMThat about sums it up--the kabbalists are getting their information from Babylon and Egypt. I feel these ideas form what the Bible calls the mystery of iniquity.
And where you think Constantinanity Christianity got their idea's?
From the New Testament.
And the interpretation of the NT isn't influenced by external factors?
It should be influenced by the Holy Spirit.
should...
WW And where you think Constantinanity Christianity got their idea's? From fables and stories it would seem if you look at it today.
WW And the interpretation of the NT isn't influenced by external factors? No. I believe the imagination of mens minds overflow into too many religious books.
MOLLY! It should be influenced by the Holy Spirit...Now Glory, that IS the answer.
MOLLY! That about sums it up--the kabbalists are getting their information from Babylon and Egypt. I feel these ideas form what the Bible calls the mystery of iniquity. If you are able to see a human as equivalent to an animal, then it is not long before human life becomes very cheap. And, it's an easy step to say, We are the higher souls--They are the animals. Man's pride would almost demand it under such a system.
Don't forget, it is not the animals who are made in God's image and likeness--it is man.
And I for one believe that christianity is still getting it from that source! Not every religious info web site should be taken as an absolute to build from.
The Adversary is very much about. Peace and Love Through Jesus
My :2c:
Quote from: micah7:9 on July 20, 2010, 04:38:11 PM
WW And where you think Constantinanity Christianity got their idea's? From fables and stories it would seem if you look at it today.
Constatine just merged/forced his Roman gods/idea's (hell) with Christianity. Put statues of Roman/Greek gods in RCC and called them apostles.
QuoteWW And the interpretation of the NT isn't influenced by external factors? No. I believe the imagination of mens minds overflow into too many religious books.
So the interpretation of the NT is influenced by imagination. And that imagination often is rooted in paganism.
:cloud9: I'm not sure who you're replying to Molly, but I don't think what I'm saying should cause offense. Spiritually speaking, His Spirit is in all creation, He lowered Himself into this bondage of corruption.
The life that causes the seed to grow, comes from Him. That that life would express itself as a lesser form as a soul, is no different than the principle of woman/soul being the lesser glory. All of creation is the lesser glory, it's all the WATERS below the firmament, and the firmament is Christ.
So animals having a soul, as an expression of the lesser glory of the carnal beastly natures that Adam named thru his soulish nature, is to me, what they were seeing, but not understanding as the "two" souls.
The redeemed soul that they caught a glimpse of thru the darkened glass, was the one that has had the work of Christ completed in it. I personally think they thought they saw "2", because they had no explanation for the change, since they didn't know Christ. The law had a form of godliness, and a lesser glory, also, and so possible for them to perceive some glory. There were some very spiritual Jews.
All babies are female until a certain point in their development inside the womb. Spiritually speaking, the flesh is all female, because the Spirit plants the seed.
I haven't studied Kabbalah, and don't intend to, but a FB Jewish friend just sent me a link to some studies last week, and I read the pages, and was surprised when the Lord quickened a couple of things to me, principles I had seen but had not connected. So like all the trees (men are trees) of the garden we were told we eat from, thru the mind of Christ, what is clean is eaten. My :2c: Blessings....
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WW And the interpretation of the NT isn't influenced by external factors? No. I believe the imagination of mens minds overflow into too many religious books.
So the interpretation of the NT is influenced by imagination. And that imagination often is rooted in paganism.
No, not at all. But the imagination of men certainly take the NT and expand what it says to work for their benift in the present day. ALL imagination is birthed in paganism.
I believe that if you are not grounded in the faith of sound doctrine in this world or age of the internet, just as the TV evangelists created many schisms, so the internet will sway all that many more just out of the sheer personal emotion and its flood of finger tip information.
Peace and Love Through Jesus
I will do my best to really read Gen. 1&2 to find where there are "two souls." Still.... no mattter how I read Gen 2:7
(ASV) And Jehovah God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
(KJV) And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
(YLT) And Jehovah God formeth the man--dust from the ground, and breatheth into his nostrils breath of life, and the man becometh a living creature.
Man was NOT given a SOUL, man BECAME a living soul. And it does not read that fish, sea monsters, fowl, were given souls... they were just living creatures(souls.) And formed Gen. 2:19 :2c:
KJVGen 1:24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.
5315 vp,n< nephesh {neh'-fesh}
Meaning: 1) soul, self, life, creature, person, appetite, mind, living being, desire, emotion, passion 1a) that which breathes, the breathing substance or being, soul, the inner being of man 1b) living being 1c) living being (with life in the blood) 1d) the man himself, self, person or individual 1e) seat of the appetites 1f) seat of emotions and passions 1g) activity of mind 1g1) dubious 1h) activity of the will 1h1) dubious 1i) activity of the character 1i1) dubious
KJVGen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
5397 hm'v'n> neshamah {nesh-aw-maw'}
Meaning: 1) breath, spirit 1a) breath (of God) 1b) breath (of man) 1c) every breathing thing 1d) spirit (of man)
KJVGen 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
7307 x;Wr ruwach {roo'-akh}
Meaning: 1) wind, breath, mind, spirit 1a) breath 1b) wind 1b1) of heaven 1b2) quarter (of wind), side 1b3) breath of air 1b4) air, gas 1b5) vain, empty thing 1c) spirit (as that which breathes quickly in animation or agitation) 1c1) spirit, animation, vivacity, vigour 1c2) courage 1c3) temper, anger 1c4) impatience, patience 1c5) spirit, disposition (as troubled, bitter, discontented) 1c6) disposition (of various kinds), unaccountable or uncontrollable impulse 1c7) prophetic spirit 1d) spirit (of the living, breathing being in man and animals) 1d1) as gift, preserved by God, God's spirit, departing at death, disembodied being 1e) spirit (as seat of emotion) 1e1) desire 1e2) sorrow, trouble 1f) spirit 1f1) as seat or organ of mental acts 1f2) rarely of the will 1f3) as seat especially of moral character 1g) spirit of God 1g1) as inspiring ecstatic state of prophecy 1g2) as impelling prophet to utter instruction or warning 1g3) imparting warlike energy and executive and administrative power 1g4) as endowing men with various gifts 1g5) as energy of life 1g6) ancient angel and later Shekinah
They call soul what Strong calls spirit...?
:cloud9: I'm not saying I think there are two souls in man.....I'm saying I think the Jews saw the difference between a redeemed one and the carnal beastly nature of one, and they THOUGHT it was two. But not having read their materials on what they based that on, it's just my best guess. Blessings...
To me all those in Adam are made up of water, blood and the spirit, but after the fall are now and are accounted spiritually dead.
But the second adam is he from heaven, who is made up of father, son, holyghost.
Those who come to christ are now accounted as bourning the image of the heavanly, the spirit quickeneth our spirits and our mortal bodies
John 14:20
So to me when Jews speaks of two souls they mean, that one soul be of the earth like Adam, but the other soul be alive like unto Christ, where God pours his spirit upon them to make them alive, for even in the old testament God poured his spirit upon the people. :2c: