Never..John 11.26

[micah7:9]

Did Jesus say one thing to Adam back in the Garden and then contradict Himself in His teaching of John 11:26? Does Jesus "change?" No. "Jesus Christ the same yesterday, today, and for ever" (Heb. 13:8.) Not only does the serpent's statement contradict God's statement, but according to the King James, even Jesus Christ contradicts God's statement. Surely this cannot be. Remember all those statements of God regarding "adding to or taking from" the words of God? Well, I'm afraid the King James has done it again. Let's take a look at this phrase "shall never die" from John 11:26 in a Greek Interlinear:

If you have e-Sword, you can see that the word translated "never" is the translation of three Greek words, not just one. Does it really take three Greek words to represent our English word "never?" No it doesn't.

The Greek word oudeic means "not ever, none, nought" as in when Peter said to Jesus, "I will NEVER [#3762--oudeic] be offended" (Matt. 26:33.) This word is translated "never" dozens of times in Scripture. However, in John 11:26 where we read "shall NEVER die," the word "never" is the singular word translation of three Greek words, not one of them being #3762, oudeic."

"So what," you say? So maybe it behooves us to see just what Greek words God used in this verse, that's what. This is one of those huge translation errors. This verse as recorded in the King James flat out contradicts God's statement back in the Garden, that's why.

The word "never" in John 11:26 is translated from:

#3364 = oume, "a double negative; not at all, neither, never, nor ever."

#1519 = ice, "to, into, throughout, for."

#165 = aion, "age."

BELIEVERS DO NOT DIE FOR THE EON

Notice how more responsible translators have rendered this verse:

"...should by NO means BE DYING for the EON." (Concorant Literal New Testament.) There is no phrase, "shall NEVER die."

"...NOT ever shall DIE to THE AGE." (Jay P. Green: Interlinear Greek-English New Testament—from the Interlinear, not the translation.) There is no phrase, "shall NEVER die."

"...NO one living and believing in Me, shall DIE to the AGE." (Emphatic Diaglott.) There is no phrase, "shall NEVER die."

"...shall in ANYWISE DIE unto times AGE-abiding." (Rotherham's Emphasized Bible.) There is no phrase, "shall NEVER die."

For sure, "All have sinned... the wages of sin is death... in Adam all die."

However, those "in Christ... should by no means be dying for the eon." And the reason is simple and Scriptural:

"...that He should give eonian life to as many as You have given Him" (John 17:2)

And that:

"all which He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day" (John 6:39.)

Yes, we shall all die, but not for or through the eon. We will be raised and reign with Christ through the coming millennial eon (and beyond—"Know you not that we shall judge the world" (I Cor. 6:2.)

And so it should be clear to all, that there is no word "never" in this Greek verse.

[sheila]

 jESUS ANSWERED; 'IF I WANT HIM TO REMAIN ALIVE UNTIL I RETURN,WHAT IS THAT TO YOU? YOU MUST FOLLOW ME'

   LISTEN,I TELL YOU A MYSTERY,WE WILL NOT ALL SLEEP,BUT WE WILL ALL BE CHANGED-IN A TWINKLING OF AN EYE,

  AT THE LAST TRUMP.FOR THE TRUMPET WILL SOUND,THE DEAD WILL BE RAISED IMPERISHABLE...

   AND WE WILL BE CHANGED

[micah7:9]

jESUS ANSWERED; 'IF I WANT HIM TO REMAIN ALIVE UNTIL I RETURN,WHAT IS THAT TO YOU? YOU MUST FOLLOW ME'

   LISTEN,I TELL YOU A MYSTERY,WE WILL NOT ALL SLEEP,BUT WE WILL ALL BE CHANGED-IN A TWINKLING OF AN EYE,

  AT THE LAST TRUMP.FOR THE TRUMPET WILL SOUND,THE DEAD WILL BE RAISED IMPERISHABLE...

   AND WE WILL BE CHANGED

Please, what exactly has that have to do with the post? I guess I just do not see. :(

[Molly]

This is a stronger phrase than 'never,' Micah.

It's a double negative.

shall never, ever die

shall never, never die

shall never, NOT EVER, die

[micah7:9]

This is a stronger phrase than 'never,' Micah.

It's a double negative.

shall never, ever die

shall never, never die

shall never, NOT EVER, die

"It's a double negative." Molly

The word "never" in John 11:26 is translated from:

#3364 = oume, "a double negative; not at all, neither, never, nor ever."

#1519 = ice, "to, into, throughout, for."

#165 = aion, "age."

BELIEVERS DO NOT DIE FOR THE EON

Notice how more responsible translators have rendered this verse:

"...should by NO means BE DYING for the EON." (Concorant Literal New Testament.) There is no phrase, "shall NEVER die."

"...NOT ever shall DIE to THE AGE." (Jay P. Green: Interlinear Greek-English New Testament—from the Interlinear, not the translation.) There is no phrase, "shall NEVER die."

"...NO one living and believing in Me, shall DIE to the AGE." (Emphatic Diaglott.) There is no phrase, "shall NEVER die."

"...shall in ANYWISE DIE unto times AGE-abiding." (Rotherham's Emphasized Bible.) There is no phrase, "shall NEVER die."

For sure, "All have sinned... the wages of sin is death... in Adam all die."

However, those "in Christ... should by no means be dying for the eon." And the reason is simple and Scriptural:

"...that He should give eonian life to as many as You have given Him" (John 17:2)

[Molly]

ou me is a double negative

never never [die]

From ou which means NOT

and

me which means NEVER

A double negative NOT NEVER   or NOT EVER

GIVEN FOR EMPHASIS LEST THERE BE SOME WHO MISS IT!

now if you want to talk about what to the age means --that's a different story.

I read that as living throughout the age.  And at the end of the age--the redemption of our bodies.

[micah7:9]

No I do not want to talk about,"now if you want to talk about what to the age mean..."  You do not see, you hold to man's doctrine and orthodox religion. I do not, I believe the Word of God. What you believe reminds of the "claim it" teaching. But that has proven to be false. I must assume you believe in an immoral soul as well, is that true?

This is what I been receiving from some of the posts about dying.

Grasping to the teaching that Jesus died for us and that from His dying in the flesh[His body dying/quit breathing]that we dont have to die{our body of flesh], for we shall never die; it would seem there maybe some kind of fear of that dying.

Besides, Paul taught that the wages of sin is death. Jesus died, gave His life for the sin of the world, I do not understand how that defaults, how we, as individuals escape that wage.

It reminds somewhat of the "physical rapture" theory. That theory is accepted, I would suggest because those who believe that theory are fearsome, that God is not able to bring His creation through that time.

[Molly]

Micah I do not ascribe to 'orthodox teaching.'  But sometimes the church gets it right.  You don't have to throw out the baby with the bathwater.

I study the Bible--that's what I do.  I just read it, as best I can, in English, Greek, and Hebrew.

And, I ask the Holy Spirit for guidance.

[micah7:9]

Then you should know that the WAGES[payment] for sin is death. That's what the Word of God, the Bible teaches.

When we are born anew, we are a new creature. And in the ages/eion/aion we will not die, but here as earthly vessels of clay who have sinned[all have sinned] we must pay the debt. We are in Christ and Christ in us, we are alive in THE SPIRIT, yet as long as we are dying as carnal human body man, we must see death through, no fear, for Christ has victory over death and the grave.

I'm dying, I am dying daily, in the spirit I continue to mortify this body of flesh, bring it under subjection; All this does not annul the truth that we must die/dead/expire/quit breathing. We have LIFE and that LIFE[in and through Him] more abundantly.

[Molly]

Micah, we can live outside of this body, and we will.  I don't need this body to live.
The death of this tent is not going to affect me in the least.


JESUS DIED FOR ME SO I CAN LIVE.

For we know that when this earthly tent we live in is taken down (that is, when we die and leave this earthly body), we will have a house in heaven, an eternal body made for us by God himself and not by human hands. [2 Cor 5:1]

[micah7:9]

Micah, we can live outside of this body, and we will.  I don't need this body to live.
The death of this tent is not going to affect me in the least.


JESUS DIED FOR ME SO I CAN LIVE.

For we know that when this earthly tent we live in is taken down (that is, when we die and leave this earthly body), we will have a house in heaven, an eternal body made for us by God himself and not by human hands. [2 Cor 5:1]

YEP :bigGrin: :dsunny: I ain't said nothing different. " when we die and leave this earthly body" we die, and wait in the grave for that day. And we in our own order, will we be changed and become incorruptible, immortal. Those chosen will be raised first, to judge.

[Molly]

Micah, we can live outside of this body, and we will.  I don't need this body to live.
The death of this tent is not going to affect me in the least.


JESUS DIED FOR ME SO I CAN LIVE.

For we know that when this earthly tent we live in is taken down (that is, when we die and leave this earthly body), we will have a house in heaven, an eternal body made for us by God himself and not by human hands. [2 Cor 5:1]

YEP :bigGrin: :dsunny: I ain't said nothing different. " when we die and leave this earthly body" we die, and wait in the grave for that day. And we in our own order, will we be changed and become incorruptible, immortal. Those chosen will be raised first, to judge.

You are welcome to wait in the grave--I will be in the eternal body made for me by God in the heavenlies with my Lord.


Yes, we are fully confident, and we would rather be away from these earthly bodies, for then we will be at home with the Lord. [2 Cor 5:8]

[micah7:9]

Okay, still you must await, and then as you can see there is a qualifier.... rest of the dead  and  rest of the dead

Rev 20:5  and the rest of the dead did not live again till the thousand years may be finished; this is the first rising again.
Rev 20:6  Happy and holy is he who is having part in the first rising again; rest of the dead but they shall be priests of God and of the Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. 

I have a doubt against you, for you must be dead, and that is not a "spiritual death."

1Co 15:12  And if Christ is preached, that out of the dead he hath risen, how say certain among you, that there is no rising again of dead persons?
1Co 15:13  and if there be no rising again of dead persons, neither hath Christ risen;
1Co 15:14  and if Christ hath not risen, then void is our preaching, and void also your faith,

1Co 15:15  and we also are found false witnesses of God, because we did testify of God that He raised up the Christ, whom He did not raise if then dead persons do not rise;
1Co 15:16 for if dead persons do not rise, neither hath Christ risen,
1Co 15:17  and if Christ hath not risen, vain is your faith, ye are yet in your sins;
1Co 15:18 then, also, those having fallen asleep in Christ did perish;

1Co 15:19  if in this life we have hope in Christ only, of all men we are most to be pitied.

[Molly]

I am waiting now in this tent.  And, each day it gets better.

It will be even better in heaven with Christ.

And, it will be better yet when my body is glorified, to rule with Christ in the millenium.

It's not like waiting in a doctor's office, Micah.

Each stage has its excitement and its merits, just like each age we've lived through on earth.


SUPERABUNDANT LIFE DOES NOT INCLUDE DEATH.

[micah7:9]

"It will be even better in heaven with Christ."

No doctors office, but the wait in this tent will only end when we die. That's scripture, not me. You are not going to heaven when you die; should that be true, is there a verse in scripture that says when you are removed(die) from this tent that one goes to heaven.

As far as I believe I am dwelling in heaven( high and lofty, lifted up) right now. I walk in heaven, I am fighting my battles in heaven, I rest in Him. I'm not waiting as you say, He redeemed me, He is in the process of making my salvation complete. I am a new creature and all things have become new.
It can only get better when I am resurrected, for now in this tent I am dying, mortifying the deeds of my flesh through the strength and faith through the Holy Spirit.
And I know for the Bible tells me so, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of heaven/God, so this tent must die. If I don't die I will lose, only I know that I will not lose, for He died for the sin of the world, so I must die as my elder brother.
Amen. :bigGrin:

[Molly]

You are not going to heaven when you die; should that be true, is there a verse in scripture that says when you are removed(die) from this tent that one goes to heaven.

Am I shouting down a well?


Yes, we are fully confident, and we would rather be away from these earthly bodies, for then we will be at home with the Lord. [2 Cor 5:8]


For we know that when this earthly tent we live in is taken down (that is, when we die and leave this earthly body), we will have a house in heaven, an eternal body made for us by God himself and not by human hands. [2 Cor 5:1]

[micah7:9]

No, I believe just the opposite you perhaps are the well. So is there a scripture or verse that says when you did you go to heaven?

This verse tells us exactly what I have said  For we know that when this earthly tent we live in is taken down (that is, when we die and leave this earthly body), we will have a house in heaven, an eternal body made for us by God himself and not by human hands. [2 Cor 5:1]

BUT you aint going there when you die, you WILL have, we live now as a new creature in the heavens, but when this body/tent dies the death, it goes to the grave to await the rising again.

[Molly]

No, I believe just the opposite you perhaps are the well. So is there a scripture or verse that says when you did you go to heaven?

This verse tells us exactly what I have said  For we know that when this earthly tent we live in is taken down (that is, when we die and leave this earthly body), we will have a house in heaven, an eternal body made for us by God himself and not by human hands. [2 Cor 5:1]

BUT you aint going there when you die, you WILL have, we live now as a new creature in the heavens, but when this body/tent dies the death, it goes to the grave to await the rising again.

Micah, it's not up to you where I go when I die.  You refuse to listen to any scripture because you have some fixed notion in your head.  You want the grave.  So be it.

For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain. [Phil 1:21]

There are some whose tent body will not die at all but will be instantly transformed when the Lord returns.

The rest of us will be in heaven with the Lord in eternal bodies until that day when we return with him as clouds.

14And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

15To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.
--Jude 1

[micah7:9]

No, I believe just the opposite you perhaps are the well. So is there a scripture or verse that says when you did you go to heaven?

This verse tells us exactly what I have said  For we know that when this earthly tent we live in is taken down (that is, when we die and leave this earthly body), we will have a house in heaven, an eternal body made for us by God himself and not by human hands. [2 Cor 5:1]

BUT you aint going there when you die, you WILL have, we live now as a new creature in the heavens, but when this body/tent dies the death, it goes to the grave to await the rising again.

Micah, it's not up to you where I go when I die.  You refuse to listen to any scripture because you have some fixed notion in your head.  You want the grave.  So be it.

For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain. [Phil 1:21]

There are some whose tent body will not die at all but will be instantly transformed when the Lord returns.

The rest of us will be in heaven with the Lord in eternal bodies until that day when we return with him as clouds.

14And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

15To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.
--Jude 1

"You refuse to listen to any scripture because you have some fixed notion in your head." Molly

No, I suggest it is you who will not accept God's Word. You believe the first lie ever told, "you shall not die."
And that is the way religion puts forth its message, I have learned that when things are written in the Bible the very first time it is of great importance and it is that foundation that one should build on. I for one believe God not how man's desire in how he would rather be.
Heb 11:13 In faith, all these died—not bearing away the promises, but, from afar, beholding and saluting them, and confessing that, strangers and sojourners, were they upon the land.

Jas 4:14  Men who are not versed in the morrow—of what sort your life will be ; for ye are, a vapour—for a little, appearing, then, just disappearing!

[Molly]

I have learned that when things are written in the Bible the very first time it is of great importance and it is that foundation that one should build on.

Our foundation is Christ.   He is the sure foundation that we build on.


Read the whole sentence:


39And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:


40God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

--Heb 11

[jabcat]

Romans 8:9 You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you.  Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. 10 But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus  4 from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you.

[micah7:9]

from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you. :bigGrin:

[micah7:9]

I have learned that when things are written in the Bible the very first time it is of great importance and it is that foundation that one should build on.

Our foundation is Christ.   He is the sure foundation that we build on.


Read the whole sentence:


39And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:


40God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

--Heb 11

"40God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect."

I just dont see us there yet. If so, why are we still running the racs?

[Molly]

Yes, Micah, Jesus died so that we might live.


9In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.

10Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

--1 John 4


"propitiation"

G2434
ἱλασμός
hilasmos
hil-as-mos'
atonement, that is, (concretely) an expiator: - propitiation.

[Molly]

I have learned that when things are written in the Bible the very first time it is of great importance and it is that foundation that one should build on.

Our foundation is Christ.   He is the sure foundation that we build on.


Read the whole sentence:


39And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:


40God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

--Heb 11

"40God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect."

I just dont see us there yet. If so, why are we still running the racs?

Yes we are there.


22But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

23To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

--Heb 12



Hebrews 12:1
Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,


2Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.



This is my church:  the church of the firstborn.  Description given above. :icon_king: