Did Jesus say one thing to Adam back in the Garden and then contradict Himself in His teaching of John 11:26? Does Jesus "change?" No. "Jesus Christ the same yesterday, today, and for ever" (Heb. 13:8.) Not only does the serpent's statement contradict God's statement, but according to the King James, even Jesus Christ contradicts God's statement. Surely this cannot be. Remember all those statements of God regarding "adding to or taking from" the words of God? Well, I'm afraid the King James has done it again. Let's take a look at this phrase "shall never die" from John 11:26 in a Greek Interlinear:
If you have e-Sword, you can see that the word translated "never" is the translation of three Greek words, not just one. Does it really take three Greek words to represent our English word "never?" No it doesn't.
The Greek word oudeic means "not ever, none, nought" as in when Peter said to Jesus, "I will NEVER [#3762--oudeic] be offended" (Matt. 26:33.) This word is translated "never" dozens of times in Scripture. However, in John 11:26 where we read "shall NEVER die," the word "never" is the singular word translation of three Greek words, not one of them being #3762, oudeic."
"So what," you say? So maybe it behooves us to see just what Greek words God used in this verse, that's what. This is one of those huge translation errors. This verse as recorded in the King James flat out contradicts God's statement back in the Garden, that's why.
The word "never" in John 11:26 is translated from:
#3364 = oume, "a double negative; not at all, neither, never, nor ever."
#1519 = ice, "to, into, throughout, for."
#165 = aion, "age."
BELIEVERS DO NOT DIE FOR THE EON
Notice how more responsible translators have rendered this verse:
"...should by NO means BE DYING for the EON." (Concorant Literal New Testament.) There is no phrase, "shall NEVER die."
"...NOT ever shall DIE to THE AGE." (Jay P. Green: Interlinear Greek-English New Testament—from the Interlinear, not the translation.) There is no phrase, "shall NEVER die."
"...NO one living and believing in Me, shall DIE to the AGE." (Emphatic Diaglott.) There is no phrase, "shall NEVER die."
"...shall in ANYWISE DIE unto times AGE-abiding." (Rotherham's Emphasized Bible.) There is no phrase, "shall NEVER die."
For sure, "All have sinned... the wages of sin is death... in Adam all die."
However, those "in Christ... should by no means be dying for the eon." And the reason is simple and Scriptural:
"...that He should give eonian life to as many as You have given Him" (John 17:2)
And that:
"all which He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day" (John 6:39.)
Yes, we shall all die, but not for or through the eon. We will be raised and reign with Christ through the coming millennial eon (and beyond—"Know you not that we shall judge the world" (I Cor. 6:2.)
And so it should be clear to all, that there is no word "never" in this Greek verse.
jESUS ANSWERED; 'IF I WANT HIM TO REMAIN ALIVE UNTIL I RETURN,WHAT IS THAT TO YOU? YOU MUST FOLLOW ME'
LISTEN,I TELL YOU A MYSTERY,WE WILL NOT ALL SLEEP,BUT WE WILL ALL BE CHANGED-IN A TWINKLING OF AN EYE,
AT THE LAST TRUMP.FOR THE TRUMPET WILL SOUND,THE DEAD WILL BE RAISED IMPERISHABLE...
AND WE WILL BE CHANGED
Quote from: sheila on September 25, 2011, 04:46:41 AM
jESUS ANSWERED; 'IF I WANT HIM TO REMAIN ALIVE UNTIL I RETURN,WHAT IS THAT TO YOU? YOU MUST FOLLOW ME'
LISTEN,I TELL YOU A MYSTERY,WE WILL NOT ALL SLEEP,BUT WE WILL ALL BE CHANGED-IN A TWINKLING OF AN EYE,
AT THE LAST TRUMP.FOR THE TRUMPET WILL SOUND,THE DEAD WILL BE RAISED IMPERISHABLE...
AND WE WILL BE CHANGED
Please, what exactly has that have to do with the post? I guess I just do not see. :(
This is a stronger phrase than 'never,' Micah.
It's a double negative.
shall never, ever die
shall never, never die
shall never, NOT EVER, die
Quote from: Molly on September 25, 2011, 05:59:17 AM
This is a stronger phrase than 'never,' Micah.
It's a double negative.
shall never, ever die
shall never, never die
shall never, NOT EVER, die
"It's a double negative." Molly
The word "never" in John 11:26 is translated from:
#3364 = oume, "a double negative; not at all, neither, never, nor ever."
#1519 = ice, "to, into, throughout, for."
#165 = aion, "age."
BELIEVERS DO NOT DIE FOR THE EONNotice how more responsible translators have rendered this verse:
"...should by NO means BE DYING for the EON." (Concorant Literal New Testament.) There is no phrase, "shall NEVER die.""...NOT ever shall DIE to THE AGE." (Jay P. Green: Interlinear Greek-English New Testament—from the Interlinear, not the translation.) There is no phrase, "shall NEVER die."
"...NO one living and believing in Me, shall DIE to the AGE." (Emphatic Diaglott.) There is no phrase, "shall NEVER die."
"...shall in ANYWISE DIE unto times AGE-abiding." (Rotherham's Emphasized Bible.) There is no phrase, "shall NEVER die."
For sure, "All have sinned... the wages of sin is death... in Adam all die."
However, those "in Christ... should by no means be dying for the eon." And the reason is simple and Scriptural:
"...that He should give eonian life to as many as You have given Him" (John 17:2)
ou me is a double negative
never never [die]
From ou which means NOT
and
me which means NEVER
A double negative NOT NEVER or NOT EVER
GIVEN FOR EMPHASIS LEST THERE BE SOME WHO MISS IT!
now if you want to talk about what to the age means --that's a different story.
I read that as living throughout the age. And at the end of the age--the redemption of our bodies.
No I do not want to talk about,"now if you want to talk about what to the age mean..." You do not see, you hold to man's doctrine and orthodox religion. I do not, I believe the Word of God. What you believe reminds of the "claim it" teaching. But that has proven to be false. I must assume you believe in an immoral soul as well, is that true?
This is what I been receiving from some of the posts about dying.
Grasping to the teaching that Jesus died for us and that from His dying in the flesh[His body dying/quit breathing]that we dont have to die{our body of flesh], for we shall never die; it would seem there maybe some kind of fear of that dying.
Besides, Paul taught that the wages of sin is death. Jesus died, gave His life for the sin of the world, I do not understand how that defaults, how we, as individuals escape that wage.
It reminds somewhat of the "physical rapture" theory. That theory is accepted, I would suggest because those who believe that theory are fearsome, that God is not able to bring His creation through that time.
Micah I do not ascribe to 'orthodox teaching.' But sometimes the church gets it right. You don't have to throw out the baby with the bathwater.
I study the Bible--that's what I do. I just read it, as best I can, in English, Greek, and Hebrew.
And, I ask the Holy Spirit for guidance.
Then you should know that the WAGES[payment] for sin is death. That's what the Word of God, the Bible teaches.
When we are born anew, we are a new creature. And in the ages/eion/aion we will not die, but here as earthly vessels of clay who have sinned[all have sinned] we must pay the debt. We are in Christ and Christ in us, we are alive in THE SPIRIT, yet as long as we are dying as carnal human body man, we must see death through, no fear, for Christ has victory over death and the grave.
I'm dying, I am dying daily, in the spirit I continue to mortify this body of flesh, bring it under subjection; All this does not annul the truth that we must die/dead/expire/quit breathing. We have LIFE and that LIFE[in and through Him] more abundantly.
Micah, we can live outside of this body, and we will. I don't need this body to live.
The death of this tent is not going to affect me in the least.
JESUS DIED FOR ME SO I CAN LIVE.
For we know that when this earthly tent we live in is taken down (that is, when we die and leave this earthly body), we will have a house in heaven, an eternal body made for us by God himself and not by human hands. [2 Cor 5:1]
Quote from: Molly on September 25, 2011, 07:17:20 AM
Micah, we can live outside of this body, and we will. I don't need this body to live.
The death of this tent is not going to affect me in the least.
JESUS DIED FOR ME SO I CAN LIVE.
For we know that when this earthly tent we live in is taken down (that is, when we die and leave this earthly body), we will have a house in heaven, an eternal body made for us by God himself and not by human hands. [2 Cor 5:1]
YEP :bigGrin: :dsunny: I ain't said nothing different. " when we die and leave this earthly body"
we die, and wait in the grave for that day. And we in our own order, will we be changed and become incorruptible, immortal. Those chosen will be raised first, to judge.
Quote from: micah7:9 on September 25, 2011, 07:29:20 AM
Quote from: Molly on September 25, 2011, 07:17:20 AM
Micah, we can live outside of this body, and we will. I don't need this body to live.
The death of this tent is not going to affect me in the least.
JESUS DIED FOR ME SO I CAN LIVE.
For we know that when this earthly tent we live in is taken down (that is, when we die and leave this earthly body), we will have a house in heaven, an eternal body made for us by God himself and not by human hands. [2 Cor 5:1]
YEP :bigGrin: :dsunny: I ain't said nothing different. " when we die and leave this earthly body" we die, and wait in the grave for that day. And we in our own order, will we be changed and become incorruptible, immortal. Those chosen will be raised first, to judge.
You are welcome to wait in the grave--I will be in the eternal body made for me by God in the heavenlies with my Lord.
Yes, we are fully confident, and we would rather be away from these earthly bodies, for then we will be at home with the Lord. [2 Cor 5:8]
Okay, still you must await, and then as you can see there is a qualifier.... rest of the dead and rest of the dead
Rev 20:5 and the rest of the dead did not live again till the thousand years may be finished; this is the first rising again.
Rev 20:6 Happy and holy is he who is having part in the first rising again; rest of the dead but they shall be priests of God and of the Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
I have a doubt against you, for you must be dead, and that is not a "spiritual death."
1Co 15:12 And if Christ is preached, that out of the dead he hath risen, how say certain among you, that there is no rising again of dead persons?
1Co 15:13 and if there be no rising again of dead persons, neither hath Christ risen;
1Co 15:14 and if Christ hath not risen, then void is our preaching, and void also your faith,
1Co 15:15 and we also are found false witnesses of God, because we did testify of God that He raised up the Christ, whom He did not raise if then dead persons do not rise;
1Co 15:16 for if dead persons do not rise, neither hath Christ risen,
1Co 15:17 and if Christ hath not risen, vain is your faith, ye are yet in your sins;
1Co 15:18 then, also, those having fallen asleep in Christ did perish;
1Co 15:19 if in this life we have hope in Christ only, of all men we are most to be pitied.
I am waiting now in this tent. And, each day it gets better.
It will be even better in heaven with Christ.
And, it will be better yet when my body is glorified, to rule with Christ in the millenium.
It's not like waiting in a doctor's office, Micah.
Each stage has its excitement and its merits, just like each age we've lived through on earth.
SUPERABUNDANT LIFE DOES NOT INCLUDE DEATH.
"It will be even better in heaven with Christ."
No doctors office, but the wait in this tent will only end when we die. That's scripture, not me. You are not going to heaven when you die; should that be true, is there a verse in scripture that says when you are removed(die) from this tent that one goes to heaven.
As far as I believe I am dwelling in heaven( high and lofty, lifted up) right now. I walk in heaven, I am fighting my battles in heaven, I rest in Him. I'm not waiting as you say, He redeemed me, He is in the process of making my salvation complete. I am a new creature and all things have become new.
It can only get better when I am resurrected, for now in this tent I am dying, mortifying the deeds of my flesh through the strength and faith through the Holy Spirit.
And I know for the Bible tells me so, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of heaven/God, so this tent must die. If I don't die I will lose, only I know that I will not lose, for He died for the sin of the world, so I must die as my elder brother.
Amen. :bigGrin:
Quote from: MicahYou are not going to heaven when you die; should that be true, is there a verse in scripture that says when you are removed(die) from this tent that one goes to heaven.
Am I shouting down a well?
Yes, we are fully confident, and we would rather be away from these earthly bodies,
for then we will be at home with the Lord. [2 Cor 5:8]
For we know that when this earthly tent we live in is taken down (that is, when we die and leave this earthly body),
we will have a house in heaven, an eternal body made for us by God himself and not by human hands. [2 Cor 5:1]
No, I believe just the opposite you perhaps are the well. So is there a scripture or verse that says when you did you go to heaven?
This verse tells us exactly what I have said For we know that when this earthly tent we live in is taken down (that is, when we die and leave this earthly body), we will have a house in heaven, an eternal body made for us by God himself and not by human hands. [2 Cor 5:1]
BUT you aint going there when you die, you WILL have, we live now as a new creature in the heavens, but when this body/tent dies the death, it goes to the grave to await the rising again.
Quote from: micah7:9 on September 25, 2011, 06:20:24 PM
No, I believe just the opposite you perhaps are the well. So is there a scripture or verse that says when you did you go to heaven?
This verse tells us exactly what I have said For we know that when this earthly tent we live in is taken down (that is, when we die and leave this earthly body), we will have a house in heaven, an eternal body made for us by God himself and not by human hands. [2 Cor 5:1]
BUT you aint going there when you die, you WILL have, we live now as a new creature in the heavens, but when this body/tent dies the death, it goes to the grave to await the rising again.
Micah, it's not up to you where I go when I die. You refuse to listen to any scripture because you have some fixed notion in your head. You want the grave. So be it.
For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain. [Phil 1:21]
There are some whose tent body will not die at all but will be instantly transformed when the Lord returns.
The rest of us will be in heaven with the Lord in eternal bodies until that day when we return with him as clouds.
14And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
15To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.
--Jude 1
Quote from: Molly on September 25, 2011, 06:38:52 PM
Quote from: micah7:9 on September 25, 2011, 06:20:24 PM
No, I believe just the opposite you perhaps are the well. So is there a scripture or verse that says when you did you go to heaven?
This verse tells us exactly what I have said For we know that when this earthly tent we live in is taken down (that is, when we die and leave this earthly body), we will have a house in heaven, an eternal body made for us by God himself and not by human hands. [2 Cor 5:1]
BUT you aint going there when you die, you WILL have, we live now as a new creature in the heavens, but when this body/tent dies the death, it goes to the grave to await the rising again.
Micah, it's not up to you where I go when I die. You refuse to listen to any scripture because you have some fixed notion in your head. You want the grave. So be it.
For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain. [Phil 1:21]
There are some whose tent body will not die at all but will be instantly transformed when the Lord returns.
The rest of us will be in heaven with the Lord in eternal bodies until that day when we return with him as clouds.
14And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
15To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.
--Jude 1
"You refuse to listen to any scripture because you have some fixed notion in your head." Molly
No, I suggest it is you who will not accept God's Word.
You believe the first lie ever told, "you shall not die."And that is the way religion puts forth its message, I have learned that when things are written in the Bible the very first time it is of great importance and it is that foundation that one should build on. I for one believe God not how man's desire in how he would rather be.
Heb 11:13
In faith, all these died—not bearing away the promises, but, from afar, beholding and saluting them, and confessing that, strangers and sojourners, were they upon the land.
Jas 4:14 Men who are not versed in the morrow—of what sort your life will be ; for ye are, a vapour—for a little, appearing, then, just disappearing!
Quote from: MicahI have learned that when things are written in the Bible the very first time it is of great importance and it is that foundation that one should build on.
Our foundation is Christ. He is the sure foundation that we build on.
Read the whole sentence:
39And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
40God having provided
some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.--Heb 11
Romans 8:9 You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. 10 But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus 4 from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you.
from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you. :bigGrin:
Quote from: Molly on September 25, 2011, 09:00:41 PM
Quote from: MicahI have learned that when things are written in the Bible the very first time it is of great importance and it is that foundation that one should build on.
Our foundation is Christ. He is the sure foundation that we build on.
Read the whole sentence:
39And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
40God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.
--Heb 11
"40God having provided some better thing for us, that they
without us should not be made perfect."
I just dont see us there yet. If so, why are we still running the racs?
Yes, Micah, Jesus died so that we might live.
9In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.
10Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
--1 John 4
"propitiation"
G2434
ἱλασμός
hilasmos
hil-as-mos'
atonement, that is, (concretely) an expiator: - propitiation.
Quote from: micah7:9 on September 25, 2011, 10:49:29 PM
Quote from: Molly on September 25, 2011, 09:00:41 PM
Quote from: MicahI have learned that when things are written in the Bible the very first time it is of great importance and it is that foundation that one should build on.
Our foundation is Christ. He is the sure foundation that we build on.
Read the whole sentence:
39And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
40God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.
--Heb 11
"40God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect."
I just dont see us there yet. If so, why are we still running the racs?
Yes we are there.
22
But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
23To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and
to the spirits of just men made perfect, --Heb 12
Hebrews 12:1
Wherefore seeing
we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
2Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
This is my church: the church of the firstborn. Description given above. :icon_king:
Well, I would like to see you cut yourself and not bleed, I would see you are spirit, then I would reconsider what the Word of God says.
Should you BE THERE [ with them[cloud of witness], which you say are not dead, the Bible says they are dead(they cant be in that place called heaven for NO ONE has ascended to heaven save Jesus who came from heaven,) you would have to be spirit, flesh and blood cant enter. You say you are not going to die, so you cant be resurrected, cause it is the resurrection of the dead.
And you have heralded that YOU will NEVER die, sooo?
Quote from: micah7:9 on September 25, 2011, 11:26:02 PM
Well, I would like to see you cut yourself and not bleed, I would see you are spirit, then I would reconsider what the Word of God says.
Should you BE THERE [ with them[cloud of witness], which you say are not dead, the Bible says they are dead(they cant be in that place called heaven for NO ONE has ascended to heaven save Jesus who came from heaven,) you would have to be spirit, flesh and blood cant enter. You say you are not going to die, so you cant be resurrected, cause it is the resurrection of the dead.
And you have heralded that YOU will NEVER die, sooo?
We are raised
together with him, as I've already shown you. There's a limit to how much I'm going to repeat myself.
But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5Even when we were dead in sins,
hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
6And
hath raised us up together, and
made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: --Eph 2
This is happening PRESENT TENSE.
Quote from: Molly on September 26, 2011, 12:50:49 AM
Quote from: micah7:9 on September 25, 2011, 11:26:02 PM
Well, I would like to see you cut yourself and not bleed, I would see you are spirit, then I would reconsider what the Word of God says.
Should you BE THERE [ with them[cloud of witness], which you say are not dead, the Bible says they are dead(they cant be in that place called heaven for NO ONE has ascended to heaven save Jesus who came from heaven,) you would have to be spirit, flesh and blood cant enter. You say you are not going to die, so you cant be resurrected, cause it is the resurrection of the dead.
And you have heralded that YOU will NEVER die, sooo?
We are raised together with him, as I've already shown you. There's a limit to how much I'm going to repeat myself.
But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
6And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
--Eph 2
This is happening PRESENT TENSE.
"
This is happening PRESENT TENSE."
By Jove! I believe your catching on!
Quote from: micah7:9 on September 26, 2011, 01:24:02 AM
Quote from: Molly on September 26, 2011, 12:50:49 AM
Quote from: micah7:9 on September 25, 2011, 11:26:02 PM
Well, I would like to see you cut yourself and not bleed, I would see you are spirit, then I would reconsider what the Word of God says.
Should you BE THERE [ with them[cloud of witness], which you say are not dead, the Bible says they are dead(they cant be in that place called heaven for NO ONE has ascended to heaven save Jesus who came from heaven,) you would have to be spirit, flesh and blood cant enter. You say you are not going to die, so you cant be resurrected, cause it is the resurrection of the dead.
And you have heralded that YOU will NEVER die, sooo?
We are raised together with him, as I've already shown you. There's a limit to how much I'm going to repeat myself.
But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
6And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
--Eph 2
This is happening PRESENT TENSE.
"This is happening PRESENT TENSE."
By Jove! I believe your catching on!
Yes, and that is how we can attend the church of the firstborn in the heavenly Jerusalem right now. This day
We have already been raised together with him into heavenly places.
O WELL! :dontknow:
12 having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead
--Col 2:12
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come! [2 Cor 5:17]
If then you have been raised with Christ, seek the things that are above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.
--Col 3:1
"raised with" [Christ]
G4891
συνεγείρω
sunegeirō
soon-eg-i'-ro
From G4862 and G1453; to rouse (from death) in company with, that is, (figuratively) to revivify (spiritually) in resemblance to: - raise up together, rise with.
Yep. That's what I've been trying to tell you, you just seem to lack the patience. :swordfight: :bigGrin:
Lets just drop this I'm getting terribly dizzy, circles you know to many and you get sick. :sigh: :HeartThrob:
Quote from: micah7:9 on September 26, 2011, 06:43:10 AM
Yep. That's what I've been trying to tell you, you just seem to lack the patience. :swordfight: :bigGrin:
Lets just drop this I'm getting terribly dizzy, circles you know to many and you get sick. :sigh: :HeartThrob:
What exactly are you trying to tell me? Why don't you spell it out.
I'm trying to tell you that we are raised with Christ right now and seated in heavenly places with him right now.
The proof of this is our faith.
And, if we are seated in the heavens with Christ right now, we have already been given and do possess eternal life.
But since you continue to mock me, I'm pretty much finished with this conversation anyway.
Quote from: Molly on September 26, 2011, 07:36:22 AM
Quote from: micah7:9 on September 26, 2011, 06:43:10 AM
Yep. That's what I've been trying to tell you, you just seem to lack the patience. :swordfight: :bigGrin:
Lets just drop this I'm getting terribly dizzy, circles you know to many and you get sick. :sigh: :HeartThrob:
What exactly are you trying to tell me? Why don't you spell it out.
I'm trying to tell you that we are raised with Christ right now and seated in heavenly places with him right now.
The proof of this is our faith.
And, if we are seated in the heavens with Christ right now, we have already been given and do possess eternal life.
But since you continue to mock me, I'm pretty much finished with this conversation anyway.
"What exactly are you trying to tell me?
Why don't you spell it out." "D -Y- I- N- G T- H -O -U D- O -S -T D -I -E."
Gen 2:17 and of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou dost not eat of it, for in the day of thine eating of it--dying thou dost die.
From the related "Dead Know Nothing" thread (these threads could be merged, they're sort of following the same track);
"Jesus' death... paid the price for your resurrection from the dead! As the wages of sin is death,... so if you actually lived on after death in a unbody state. Then the debt has not been paid as you never died, just your body! Jesus did not die for your physical body to be raised! He died for your sinning soul! YOU! Your mind and thoughts to continue to exist in a new spiritual body!"
Paul
Are you saying that before Jesus died and rose again, the plan was that all people would stay physically dead forever, and that exclusively is what Jesus' death (and resurrection) addressed? Seems to me more was dealt with by our Savior's sacrifice and resurrection than that. I'd propose that Adam became spiritually dead due to his sin, while he was dying physically - sort of "package deal". "Dying [physically?] thou dost die [spiritually?]". Is that possibly talking about 2 kinds of death?
Hopefully we all believe Jesus reversed the curse of sin. Seems to me, part of the issue here is the understanding of just what is the curse of sin? I keep thinking about this topic, and I admittedly don't have every aspect of it clear in my mind. It can be difficult to "sort this out" rather than just defend a position. :mblush:
A thought; when considering spiritual vs. physical - they were told to not eat of the tree of knowledge, not the tree of life - which could imply a spiritual not ["just"] physical death... :scratchhead: Doesn't Genesis 3:22-23, which states that Adam and Eve were expelled from Eden to prevent them obtaining immortality by eating of the Tree of Life, indicate they were already mortal by default?
Along with that, there apparently was already a belief amongst the Jews (except for the Sadducees) about a resurrection from physical death, which of course was before Jesus' birth. Molly, sheila (or anyone) do you know where that belief came from at that time from the Old Testament scriptures?
Here's an interesting excerpt worth considering, IMO.
-------------------------------------
"Death through sin" is not equivalent to physical death
by Dr. Hugh Ross, M.Sc., Ph.D. (from his book "Creation And Time")
1. "Death through sin" is not equivalent to physical death. Romans 5:12 says, "Sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned." Some have interpreted this verse as implying no death of any kind for any creature existed before Adam's sin and, therefore, only a brief time could have transpired between the creation of the first life-forms and Adam's sin.
The proponents of such a view fail to realize that the absence of physical death would pose just as great a problem for three twenty-four-hour days as it would for three billion years. Many species of life cannot survive for even three hours without food, and the mere ingestion of food by animals requires death of at least plants or plant parts.
Are birds and mammals condemned to "death through sin"?
Of all life on the earth, only humans have earned the title "sinner." Only humans can experience "death through sin." Note that the death Adam experienced is carefully qualified in the text as being visited on "all men" - not on plants and animals, just on human beings (Romans 5:12,18-19).
The book of Romans discusses four kinds of death: death to the law, death to sin, physical death, and spiritual death. Romans 5:12 addresses neither physical nor soulish death. It addresses spiritual death. When Adam sinned, he instantly "died," just as God said he would ("In the day that you eat of it, you shall surely die" - Genesis 2:17, NKJV). Yet, he remained alive physically and soulishly (i.e., mentally, volitionally, and emotionally). He died spiritually. He broke his harmonious fellowship with God and introduced the inclination to place one's own way above God's.
In the same manner, it has been established that 1 Corinthians 15:21 ("since death came through a man") also must refer to spiritual death rather than to physical death. As the following two verses in 1 Corinthians explain, "For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him" (verses 22-23). Christ grants eternal life through His crucifixion and resurrection, and will give believers indestructible bodies at His return. Christ's crucifixion and resurrection conquered sin and removed the barrier Adam erected between humanity and God. Any person choosing spiritual life in Christ will receive it. Eventually, at Christ's second coming, the eternal spiritual life that the believer in Christ already possesses results in eternal physical life.
Genesis 3 records that after Adam and Eve died (spiritually) through sin, God sent an angel to block their access to the tree of life. Apparently Adam and Eve had the potential for eternal physical life before and after sinning against God. Knowing that eternal physical life in their newly acquired sinful condition ultimately would be disastrous for them and their descendants, God barred their access to it. God would not allow His plan to be thwarted. Dr. Hugh Ross
Father forbid the eating of the tree of life in the garden,after deception[spiritual dying/entered] and disobediance[physical death/undeceived spirit/ corruption entered]
so that man would not remain in that death state eternally.as a deceived spirit,hostage to the deception of the evil spirits.[expierence demonic state eternally/]
The TOL is granted only after mercy and free gift given of eternal spiritual life/spirit of truth/spiritual regeneration.
Only after the 'saving' of the spirit from deception...and new spirit of truth given[regeneration] and death of disobediant flesh[sin entered=evil spirit destroying]
is new immortal body given. the spirit is immortal and can be regenerated[he will not extinguish a flaxen wick=golden oil/truth] He 'lights' the candle
of every man=regenerate spirit deceived.....[evil spirit =contaminated impure oil=sputtering..light with shadows[of which God's spirit has no variation of a shadow]
Now the corruption of the flesh part of the equation He has dealt with by clotheing regenerated spirit creature in immortal,incorruptible bodies.
thus spirit is immortal[from/of God] and can be regenerated.[trim flaxen/linen wick add pure golden oil..].flesh is not....for it is corruptible[naked]and serpent
food[serpent eat dust] When He clothes with incorruption serpent dies from starvation/no substinance.
it is not true that only man is affected by the corrupted spirit[serpent the most subtil beast of the feild] so too the animals that lost their proper nature..
devouring beasts..and even thorny trees,briars,poisonous weeds....the whole creation has been affected...due to Adam givien dominion of theearth
when the evil one gained the upper hand through deception and disobediance...the entire world was deceived.
New Heaven= new regenerated spirit, new earth = incorruptible vessels[corruption no longer able to enter]
Quote from: micah7:9 on September 26, 2011, 08:45:25 AM
Quote from: Molly on September 26, 2011, 07:36:22 AM
Quote from: micah7:9 on September 26, 2011, 06:43:10 AM
Yep. That's what I've been trying to tell you, you just seem to lack the patience. :swordfight: :bigGrin:
Lets just drop this I'm getting terribly dizzy, circles you know to many and you get sick. :sigh: :HeartThrob:
What exactly are you trying to tell me? Why don't you spell it out.
I'm trying to tell you that we are raised with Christ right now and seated in heavenly places with him right now.
The proof of this is our faith.
And, if we are seated in the heavens with Christ right now, we have already been given and do possess eternal life.
But since you continue to mock me, I'm pretty much finished with this conversation anyway.
"What exactly are you trying to tell me? Why don't you spell it out." "D -Y- I- N- G T- H -O -U D- O -S -T D -I -E."
Gen 2:17 and of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou dost not eat of it, for in the day of thine eating of it--dying thou dost die.
First of all, I reject that is what Gen 2:17 says. It says,
thou shalt surely die! --muth said twice for emphasis. As long as Adam is in the garden with access to the tree of life, he is not dying. He is living. It is his separation from God that causes his death condition.
Jesus has reconciled us with God. We are no longer separated from God. Through Christ, we are no longer death food for the serpent.
Isa 9:2 The people walking in darkness have seen a great light; on those living in the land of the shadow of death a light has dawned.
Isaiah 42:16 I will lead the blind by ways they have not known, along unfamiliar paths I will guide them; I will turn the darkness into light before them and make the rough places smooth. These are the things I will do;
I will not forsake them.And a highway shall be there, and it shall be called the Way of Holiness; the unclean shall not pass over it. It shall belong to those who walk on the way; even if they are fools, they shall not go astray. [Isa 35:8]
Quote from: Molly on September 26, 2011, 07:36:22 AM
Quote from: micah7:9 on September 26, 2011, 06:43:10 AM
Yep. That's what I've been trying to tell you, you just seem to lack the patience. :swordfight: :bigGrin:
Lets just drop this I'm getting terribly dizzy, circles you know to many and you get sick. :sigh: :HeartThrob:
What exactly are you trying to tell me? Why don't you spell it out.
I'm trying to tell you that we are raised with Christ right now and seated in heavenly places with him right now.
The proof of this is our faith.
And, if we are seated in the heavens with Christ right now, we have already been given and do possess eternal life.
But since you continue to mock me, I'm pretty much finished with this conversation anyway.
Hi Molly,
I see what you are saying and what you say above is true, we are SPIRITUALLY sitting in Christ on the right hand of God.
Even though we are SPIRITUALLY sitting in heaven NOW doesn't mean that we don't sin, that we won't die a physically death. In reality we are still hear in the flesh. I don't really know how to explain it.
OK, lets say we are in heaven NOW literally. Can you tell me that you see God? can you tell me what you see up there as far as angels, Christ? What does the surroundings look like?
You see, I think it is a process. Jesus Christ was slain before the foundation of the earth, but was he really? Or was this as though it had already happened, even though it hadn't?
I think that Paul knew that it was as though we already were sitting in Christ in the heavenlies but physically we are still here on earth.
When Jesus said those who believe on me will never die, was he speaking spiritually or physically? I think he meant that we spiritually, like in our being, our being in him so to speak, would never die, even though our bodies would. We are sealed, spiritually and have died and been resurrected in a sense but we still have to go through a process of it all just like Jesus did, even though he died before the foundation of the world.
Hope I explained this so it makes some sense?
CHB
Quote from: CHBWhen Jesus said those who believe on me will never die, was he speaking spiritually or physically? I think he meant that we spiritually, like in our being, our being in him so to speak, would never die, even though our bodies would. We are sealed, spiritually and have died and been resurrected in a sense but we still have to go through a process of it all just like Jesus did, even though he died before the foundation of the world.
Physically, we know that we live in temporary tents. No one was ever suggesting that these tents will be a permanent home. Even those alive and living in their tents when Jesus returns will be changed physically.
But when/if I discard this tent as my garment, I know that God has created an eternal home for me in heaven. So I will not lose consciousness, I will not be 'dead,' I will not perish---I will simply move from one home to another more permanent one. That's 2 Cor 5:1. Thus, I will always be with the Lord.
Think of the hermit crab. He doesn't die when he leaves his shell. :bigGrin:
Molly, one who walks in faith will always see things that one who doesn't walk in faith can not see. Your faith is what is revealing to you this "mystery". And "from" that perspective of your faith, the Scriptures you read will also manifest what your spirit sees. It's all good!
The frustration comes when one tries to explain that which can't be seen. The only way to see these things it through the spirit in us, not through logic and reason. Faith and spirit go hand in hand, neither can be seen, but both can see what can't be seen. The best you can do is embrace what you're able to see due to your spirit revealing what can't be seen, and let those that embrace the tangible things be. It'll only result in weariness on both ends. It's one thing to plant a seed in fertile soil, a whole other matter when the soil isn't in season for the seed to be received.
A person with an experience is never at the mercy of a person with an argument. Seeing what can't be seen is not knowledge, but it's an inward experience that births a "knowing" in us. You may want to do some digging around the passages where Jesus instructed those to whom he personally touched not to tell any "men" of what they either experienced or saw.
This conversation has been exasperating.
Quote from: CHBI see what you are saying and what you say above is true, we are SPIRITUALLY sitting in Christ on the right hand of God.
Even though we are SPIRITUALLY sitting in heaven NOW doesn't mean that we don't sin, that we won't die a physically death. In reality we are still hear in the flesh. I don't really know how to explain it.
This tent I'm living in is dead matter. Again, it is like the shell of the hermit crab. That is what Paul keeps telling us, we were pulled down into the carnal and held captive by death until Jesus released us.
When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature,
God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins,
He canceled the record of the charges against us and took it away by nailing it to the cross. [Col 2:13, 14]
This happened once and for all at the cross. Jesus paid our debt in full which is death. It's like we were in debtors prison until we pay up and now we are free. No more debt. We are free to leave the prison which is our tent bodies, our carnal nature. But, although it happened once and for all at the cross, it is now playing itself out in each individual life, as preordained by God.
I don't know about you, but if someone opens the prison door for me, I'm walking out. :bigGrin:
For he has rescued us from the kingdom of darkness and transferred us into the Kingdom of his dear Son,who purchased our freedom and forgave our sins. [Col 1:13,14]
Another LOGICALLY thing is, when Jesus was resurrected he had not ascended to the Father right away, how do you explain that as to us going on to heaven when we die?
Nathan, I think it takes faith, spirit, logic, reasoning's, all these things to come to an accurate understanding of things. We are both physical and spiritual so I think it is natural to use both to discern things
CHB
Amen!
Quote from: CHB on September 26, 2011, 08:59:08 PM
Another LOGICALLY thing is, when Jesus was resurrected he had not ascended to the Father right away, how do you explain that as to us going on to heaven when we die?
Nathan, I think it takes faith, spirit, logic, reasoning's, all these things to come to an accurate understanding of things. We are both physical and spiritual so I think it is natural to use both to discern things
CHB
Jesus died and was resurrected in a glorified body. He is the first fruit.
We will not receive our glorified bodies until the end of the age.
When I say we are born out of due time, I mean we were born from above in the wrong age.
We are like premature babies, a type of first fruits. We are being saved from the inside out.
Hence even the eternal home in heaven that he has prepared for us is only for the age. [eternal=aionios]
At the end of the age, that will be replaced by the glorified bodiy of Christ--and we shall be fully redeemed.
Quote from: Nathan on September 26, 2011, 08:34:44 PM
Molly, one who walks in faith will always see things that one who doesn't walk in faith can not see. Your faith is what is revealing to you this "mystery". And "from" that perspective of your faith, the Scriptures you read will also manifest what your spirit sees. It's all good!
The frustration comes when one tries to explain that which can't be seen. The only way to see these things it through the spirit in us, not through logic and reason. Faith and spirit go hand in hand, neither can be seen, but both can see what can't be seen. The best you can do is embrace what you're able to see due to your spirit revealing what can't be seen, and let those that embrace the tangible things be. It'll only result in weariness on both ends. It's one thing to plant a seed in fertile soil, a whole other matter when the soil isn't in season for the seed to be received.
A person with an experience is never at the mercy of a person with an argument. Seeing what can't be seen is not knowledge, but it's an inward experience that births a "knowing" in us. You may want to do some digging around the passages where Jesus instructed those to whom he personally touched not to tell any "men" of what they either experienced or saw.
This conversation has been exasperating.
Thank you.
I keep telling myself, 'Shut up, Molly!' :laughing7:
But, then I think maybe if I just could communicate it better...
Even so, you have no idea how much I bite my tongue--not just here, but everywhere.
"Seeing what can't be seen is not knowledge"---That's a great way to put it. Thanks!
Quote from: CHB on September 26, 2011, 08:59:08 PM
Another LOGICALLY thing is, when Jesus was resurrected he had not ascended to the Father right away, how do you explain that as to us going on to heaven when we die?
Nathan, I think it takes faith, spirit, logic, reasoning's, all these things to come to an accurate understanding of things. We are both physical and spiritual so I think it is natural to use both to discern things
CHB
Then why all the sparring over death? If God is light and in him there is no shadow or turning, where does the emphasis of this death and soul sleep and absence from the Father and "wages of sin" . . .all of it . . . what part of God's nature is being emphasized in these arguments? What part of God's "light" does death fit in with?
This whole topic has been one about something that is impossible to prove. It's an argument at best. I agree there are things in us that we, ourselves may need to flesh out from time to time. But I struggle with the idea that we're to combine natural with spiritual when we're specifically called to walk in only "one" of those. Yes, we are beings that have the ability to experience both natural and physical experiences. But "which" are we to embrace and which are we to not rely on? I have yet to come across anything that states the spirit is calling us to embrace our reasoning.
The renewed mind is not one that relies on itself for spiritual truth. It's one that has submitted to the spirit and has been transformed as a result. But even "that" part is temporal because our minds are temporal. Renewing the mind is a process and a repetition, an on-going submissive positioning.
Genesis 6 speaks about what transpires when spiritual is blended with natural . . it never ends well. Yes, our minds have a role, but it's a submissive one and yes, understanding does manifest, just as Molly has been trying to share on this particular subject. But spiritual understanding doesn't come by natural means. Faith is not a "natural" avenue people rely on when pursuing knowledge. Spiritual truth is birthed "from within" us, not from obtaining knowledge.
Seriously guys . . . do you think any of the Apostles got to the spiritual levels of relationship with God that they did by emphasizing meanings of words? By arguing about what is Greek and what is mistranslated to say something else? all of this is a continual extension of relying on our knowledge . .then at the end, we want to tag on that the Spirit will take our accumulated knowledge that we've acquired and lead us into the spiritual truth that other people who either don't have our intellectual drive, or the means for in-depth studies can not enter into?
Faith doesn't come by gathering more facts . . .it comes by "hearing" the Word within us. The rest of it turns into clanging symbols if we're not careful. I'm not condemning, I'm just trying to point out the affects of the bigger picture with some of these conversations.
...this last posts brought to mind Stephen's declaration..[pre-Nathans]
.'LOOK,I SEE HEAVEN OPENED AND THE SON OF MAN STANDING AT THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD"
Better Covenant=Better resurrection...life eternal in spirit
...old law covenant[sin condemned in flesh]
:thumbsup:
Quote from: Nathan on September 26, 2011, 09:25:32 PM
Then why all the sparring over death? If God is light and in him there is no shadow or turning, where does the emphasis of this death and soul sleep and absence from the Father and "wages of sin" . . .all of it . . . what part of God's nature is being emphasized in these arguments? What part of God's "light" does death fit in with?
I guess you will have to get that answer from God since he is the one who created death in the first place.
Quote from: Nathan
This whole topic has been one about something that is impossible to prove. It's an argument at best. I agree there are things in us that we, ourselves may need to flesh out from time to time. But I struggle with the idea that we're to combine natural with spiritual when we're specifically called to walk in only "one" of those. Yes, we are beings that have the ability to experience both natural and physical experiences. But "which" are we to embrace and which are we to not rely on? I have yet to come across anything that states the spirit is calling us to embrace our reasoning.
Isn't it true of most everything we discuss,...it being impossible to prove, that is?
I never said we were to imbrace our reasonings. Isn't it sensible to use our reasonings when discussing things?
Quote from: Nathan
The renewed mind is not one that relies on itself for spiritual truth. It's one that has submitted to the spirit and has been transformed as a result. But even "that" part is temporal because our minds are temporal. Renewing the mind is a process and a repetition, an on-going submissive positioning.
You see, here is where part of the problem lies. You just said our minds are temporal, if it is renewed and spiritual how is it temporal? I thought it would never die?
Quote from: Nathan
Genesis 6 speaks about what transpires when spiritual is blended with natural . . it never ends well. Yes, our minds have a role, but it's a submissive one and yes, understanding does manifest, just as Molly has been trying to share on this particular subject. But spiritual understanding doesn't come by natural means. Faith is not a "natural" avenue people rely on when pursuing knowledge. Spiritual truth is birthed "from within" us, not from obtaining knowledge.
I thought spiritual truth came by the Holy Spirit not something within us? It comes from God not us.
Quote from: Nathan
Seriously guys . . . do you think any of the Apostles got to the spiritual levels of relationship with God that they did by emphasizing meanings of words? By arguing about what is Greek and what is mistranslated to say something else? all of this is a continual extension of relying on our knowledge . .then at the end, we want to tag on that the Spirit will take our accumulated knowledge that we've acquired and lead us into the spiritual truth that other people who either don't have our intellectual drive, or the means for in-depth studies can not enter into?
You lost me here.
[/quote author=Nathan]
Faith doesn't come by gathering more facts . . .it comes by "hearing" the Word within us. The rest of it turns into clanging symbols if we're not careful. I'm not condemning, I'm just trying to point out the affects of the bigger picture with some of these conversations.
[/quote]
I am not going to listen to my own mind speaking and call it truth. I don't listen to my own being or something within me because I can deceive myself into thinking something that is not truth. Faith comes by hearing, hearing by the WORD OF GOD.
(Heb. 11:13) These ALL DIED in faith, NOT HAVING RECEIVED THE PROMISES,
If everyone goes on to heaven when they die why does it say they didn't receive the promises? What were the promises they didn't receive?
Also in verse 40 of the same chapter it says "God having provided some better thing for us, THAY THEY WITHOUT US SHOULD NOT BE MADE PERFECT".
Please explain the above to me. It sounds to me that Paul is saying these people are still dead and have not received immortality yet?
CHB
CHB
CHB,
The Holy Spirit is inside us. "Don't you know you are the temple of the Holy Spirit". Christ in you is the hope of glory.
Not taking sides btw, just pointing out :bigGrin:
redhot, since you "didn't take sides", I "won't either" lol
I did see a line in CHB's post though that I can REALLY identify with; "I am not going to listen to my own mind speaking and call it truth. I don't listen to my own being or something within me [sometimes it is the Lord] because I can deceive myself into thinking something that is not truth. Faith comes by hearing, hearing by the WORD OF GOD."
I personally have to be VERY careful with that, not always taking what comes from "inside me" to be God speaking, without "testing it". "...test everything. Hold on to what is good." I Thes. 5:21 Our hearts are deceitful (Jer. 17:9). We can indeed hear the Lord (My sheep know my voice), but I for one must listen very carefully. How many times have I blundered forward with something I "heard", taking it as from the Lord, when it turned to be I was flat out wrong? Was that the Lord I heard? No, many times it's been my own imagination. :2c: Again, we CAN and DO hear from the Lord, so I'm NOT saying we can't...but just a word to the wise, and hopefully I can be "wise". :) I pray for it. Blessings.
P.S. Brother Nathan, and all really, have said some very good things in these recent discussions. Every participant loves and hears the Lord. It just becomes obvious none of us have all the answers, see the complete picture. We see in part, know in part, etc... That's why we can learn from each other if we will. :thumbsup:
God bless.
Quote from: Nathan
Seriously guys . . . do you think any of the Apostles got to the spiritual levels of relationship with God that they did by emphasizing meanings of words? By arguing about what is Greek and what is mistranslated to say something else? all of this is a continual extension of relying on our knowledge . .then at the end, we want to tag on that the Spirit will take our accumulated knowledge that we've acquired and lead us into the spiritual truth that other people who either don't have our intellectual drive, or the means for in-depth studies can not enter into?
You lost me here.
I was trying to point out the fact that spiritual truth "in" us doesn't require intellectual reasoning. Of course we use our minds to communicate, ask questions, and even reason . . .but I'm not one that believes we're to rely more on our knowledge of information than we are to rely on our experiences in revelation.
[/quote author=Nathan]
Faith doesn't come by gathering more facts . . .it comes by "hearing" the Word within us. The rest of it turns into clanging symbols if we're not careful. I'm not condemning, I'm just trying to point out the affects of the bigger picture with some of these conversations.
[/quote]
I am not going to listen to my own mind speaking and call it truth. I don't listen to my own being or something within me because I can deceive myself into thinking something that is not truth. Faith comes by hearing, hearing by the WORD OF GOD.
You don't think our "mind" is the most subtle beast in all of the field? The reason it "can" deceive us is because we're not "aware" of the fact that it's doing it. The WORD OF GOD is exactly what I was referring to . . .not the written word on parchment, "that" word is inevidibly filtered through the very mind that is deceiving us. The WORD OF GOD is the word that God has written IN OUR HEARTS . . .that's the "sound" that builds our faith. You can't build what you can't see (your faith) with things that you "can" see. (written Scripture)
(Heb. 11:13) These ALL DIED in faith, NOT HAVING RECEIVED THE PROMISES,
If everyone goes on to heaven when they die why does it say they didn't receive the promises? What were the promises they didn't receive?
It isn't talking about not receiving the promises after they died. It's saying they were given the prophecy of the coming of the promise, but died before it materialized in their generation.
Also in verse 40 of the same chapter it says "God having provided some better thing for us, THAY THEY WITHOUT US SHOULD NOT BE MADE PERFECT".
Please explain the above to me. It sounds to me that Paul is saying these people are still dead and have not received immortality yet?
I can't respond to the one verse you've pulled out . . .I need to see the context and right now, my time here is up.
"Jesus died and was resurrected in a glorified body. He is the first fruit." Molly ( Know the first fruit part)
We will not receive our glorified bodies until the end of the age." Molly
You seem to come up with sentences that sound like its biblical, but when I go to find scripture and verse, I get stumped.
Like the two above.
How about this Joh 13:31 When, therefore, he went forth, Jesus saith, `Now was the Son of Man glorified, and God was glorified in him;
Joh 13:32 if God was glorified in him, God also will glorify him in Himself; yea, immediately He will glorify him.
I have read nothing of this glorified bodies, I read much in religious and charismatic writings.
I have heard speak of spiritual death, I understand what it says but the Bible is lack of such word. I know that The Father drew me Jesus, I know that I have been born from above, I know that I am in the spirit Rom 8:1 There is, then, now no condemnation to those in Christ Jesus, who walk not according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit;
I know that I die daily, I know that this house of clay is temporary, I know that Jesus died for the sin of the whole world, I know that I have the mind of Christ, I know that I am supposed to compare spiritual with spiritual, I know 1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
I know that the Lord God said that will surely die and I know that the serpent said you will NOT surly die. I just happened to believe the Lord God over the serpents lie.
I know that these words are TRUE Joh 11:26 And, no one who liveth again and believeth on me, shall in anywise die, unto times age-abiding. Believest thou this? YES YES! YES! I believe this.
But I also know that we will die the death and that my body will return to the dust and that the Breath of life that the Lord God breathed into the dust will return to the one who gave it. I know that the natural day that I die I will know not anything. Waiting the rising again.
I know this as well Joh 3:13 and no one hath gone up to the heaven, except he who out of the heaven came down--the Son of Man who is in the heaven.
I know My Redeemer Lives, I know that I am alive in Him, these things I know for the Bible reads it and the Holy Spirit comforts me on this journey.
Psa 90:3 You can turn a mortal back to crushed dust And say, Return, O sons of humanity."
Quote from: CHB on September 26, 2011, 10:36:40 PM
Quote from: Nathan on September 26, 2011, 09:25:32 PM
Then why all the sparring over death? If God is light and in him there is no shadow or turning, where does the emphasis of this death and soul sleep and absence from the Father and "wages of sin" . . .all of it . . . what part of God's nature is being emphasized in these arguments? What part of God's "light" does death fit in with?
I guess you will have to get that answer from God since he is the one who created death in the first place.
Quote from: Nathan
This whole topic has been one about something that is impossible to prove. It's an argument at best. I agree there are things in us that we, ourselves may need to flesh out from time to time. But I struggle with the idea that we're to combine natural with spiritual when we're specifically called to walk in only "one" of those. Yes, we are beings that have the ability to experience both natural and physical experiences. But "which" are we to embrace and which are we to not rely on? I have yet to come across anything that states the spirit is calling us to embrace our reasoning.
Isn't it true of most everything we discuss,...it being impossible to prove, that is?
I never said we were to imbrace our reasonings. Isn't it sensible to use our reasonings when discussing things?
Quote from: Nathan
The renewed mind is not one that relies on itself for spiritual truth. It's one that has submitted to the spirit and has been transformed as a result. But even "that" part is temporal because our minds are temporal. Renewing the mind is a process and a repetition, an on-going submissive positioning.
You see, here is where part of the problem lies. You just said our minds are temporal, if it is renewed and spiritual how is it temporal? I thought it would never die?
Quote from: Nathan
Genesis 6 speaks about what transpires when spiritual is blended with natural . . it never ends well. Yes, our minds have a role, but it's a submissive one and yes, understanding does manifest, just as Molly has been trying to share on this particular subject. But spiritual understanding doesn't come by natural means. Faith is not a "natural" avenue people rely on when pursuing knowledge. Spiritual truth is birthed "from within" us, not from obtaining knowledge.
I thought spiritual truth came by the Holy Spirit not something within us? It comes from God not us.
Quote from: Nathan
Seriously guys . . . do you think any of the Apostles got to the spiritual levels of relationship with God that they did by emphasizing meanings of words? By arguing about what is Greek and what is mistranslated to say something else? all of this is a continual extension of relying on our knowledge . .then at the end, we want to tag on that the Spirit will take our accumulated knowledge that we've acquired and lead us into the spiritual truth that other people who either don't have our intellectual drive, or the means for in-depth studies can not enter into?
You lost me here.
[/quote author=Nathan]
Faith doesn't come by gathering more facts . . .it comes by "hearing" the Word within us. The rest of it turns into clanging symbols if we're not careful. I'm not condemning, I'm just trying to point out the affects of the bigger picture with some of these conversations.
I am not going to listen to my own mind speaking and call it truth. I don't listen to my own being or something within me because I can deceive myself into thinking something that is not truth. Faith comes by hearing, hearing by the WORD OF GOD.
(Heb. 11:13) These ALL DIED in faith, NOT HAVING RECEIVED THE PROMISES,
If everyone goes on to heaven when they die why does it say they didn't receive the promises? What were the promises they didn't receive?
Also in verse 40 of the same chapter it says "God having provided some better thing for us, THAY THEY WITHOUT US SHOULD NOT BE MADE PERFECT".
Please explain the above to me. It sounds to me that Paul is saying these people are still dead and have not received immortality yet?
CHB
CHB
[/quote]
:grin: Stand CHB Stand :thumbsup:
Quote from: Nathan on September 26, 2011, 08:34:44 PM
Molly, one who walks in faith will always see things that one who doesn't walk in faith can not see. Your faith is what is revealing to you this "mystery". And "from" that perspective of your faith, the Scriptures you read will also manifest what your spirit sees. It's all good!
The frustration comes when one tries to explain that which can't be seen. The only way to see these things it through the spirit in us, not through logic and reason. Faith and spirit go hand in hand, neither can be seen, but both can see what can't be seen. The best you can do is embrace what you're able to see due to your spirit revealing what can't be seen, and let those that embrace the tangible things be. It'll only result in weariness on both ends. It's one thing to plant a seed in fertile soil, a whole other matter when the soil isn't in season for the seed to be received.
A person with an experience is never at the mercy of a person with an argument. Seeing what can't be seen is not knowledge, but it's an inward experience that births a "knowing" in us. You may want to do some digging around the passages where Jesus instructed those to whom he personally touched not to tell any "men" of what they either experienced or saw.
This conversation has been exasperating. :thumbsup: YOU GOT THAT RIGHT! :bigGrin:
I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. [1 Cor 15:50]
Why is it that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom? It is because the life is in the blood. The blood is the corruptible source of life. And the perishable cannot inherit the imperishable.
Thus we see the sprinkling of the blood over all manner of the Temple to make things holy. It is the blood of Christ that we refer to here. Was his blood perishable? Most certainly, he was in the body of a man. The blood of Christ signifies the sacrifice of the holy, the just for the unjust, to make us whole.
Yet, we see the resurrected Christ still in flesh, but his blood has been given to the world. Now he calls his body 'flesh and bone.' This then is one quality of the glorified body. No blood, no corruption. The blood has been replaced by Spirit. We, too, will be flesh and bone at the final redemption of our bodies.
Matthew 26:28 ...this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
Hebrews 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
And after my body has decayed, yet in my body I will see God! [Job 19:26]
flesh=the tabernacle curtains/veils
bones=the poles and supports
Quote from: redhotmagma on September 27, 2011, 05:04:18 PM
flesh=the tabernacle curtains/veils
bones=the poles and supports
By his death, Jesus opened a new and life-giving way through the curtain into the Most Holy Place.
And so, dear brothers and sisters, we can boldly enter heaven's Most Holy Place because of the blood of Jesus.
by a new and living way which He inaugurated for us through the veil, that is, His flesh,
--Heb 10:19,20
The first tabernacle = Adam=flesh and blood.
(But only the high priest entered the inner room, and that only once a year, and never without blood, which he offered for himself and for the sins the people had committed in ignorance.Heb 9:7)
(The Holy Spirit was showing by this that the way into the Most Holy Place had not yet been disclosed as long as the first tabernacle was still standing. Heb 9:8)
those that died in faith awaiting the promised seed and NEW Covenat....are not made perfect[law could make nothing perfect] apart from us.....=
partakers of the NEW AND BETTER COVENANT INSTITUTED BY THE PROMISED SEED.......GRACE.
Under the old law covenant the people hoped in a resurrected flesh body on the earth[righteousness through law] the law is GOOD, but when that
which is perfect comes, so,too, a BETTER resurrection. A HEAVENLY RESURRECTION...of just spirits made perfect that enter into the heavenly
eternal city. Thus, they shall not be made perfect apart from us.......spirits of just men made perfect clothed in incorruptible garments
Yes, but one day that garment of the righteous will be the resurrected glorified body of Christ and they will walk on this earth.
Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth. [Mat 5:5]
And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified. [Rom 8:30]
the Law is a tutor to lead us to Christ. LOVE AND PERFECTION/LIGHTS THE FULLNESS AND FULFILLING OF THE LOVE OF GOD AND MAN
If LOVE is not there...the law will NOT REVEAL OR DECLARE IT....BUT WILL RESTRAIN/CENSOR EVIDENCE OF IT'S LACK[OF FULLNESS}
IT THUS REVEALS LAWLESSNESS OF MISSING THE MARK OF SPIRITUAL PERFECTION..FALLINS SHORT OF GOD'S GLORY?PERFECTION AND LOVE....
Awake not Love until HE desires......God's LOVE FOR MANKIND AWAKENED AND FULFILLED THE LAW OF HIS LOVE...and thus....
THE KINGDOM OF THE LOVE IN HIS SON WAS BEGOT THAT DAY. Can a nation be born in a day? NOTHING IS IMPOSSIBLE WITH GOD!
AND WE LOVE HIM,BECAUSE HE FIRST LOVED US[see how He teaches us?] AND ALL YOUR CHILDREN SHALL BE TAUGHT OF THE LORD!!
So now we see the spirits of just men made perfect inhabiting the holy city in heaven, the new Jerusalem, the great assembly and church of the firstborn, which communion we can now enter into in that Most Holy place through the blood of Jesus and through the veil which is his flesh. This is the rest he speaks of us entering into, the promised land.
Let us then with confidence draw near to the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need. Heb 4:16
Later, we see that heavenly holy city coming to earth like a bride prepared for her groom, that groom the glorified body of Christ, and the new wine will enter the new wineskins of flesh and bone.
I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband.[Rev 21:2]
How do you know that you are his chosen and beloved, his holy ones? Because you believe!
You are his priests according to the order of Melchizedek.
that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life. [John 3:15]
And you are living stones that God is building into his spiritual temple. What's more, you are his holy priests. Through the mediation of Jesus Christ, you offer spiritual sacrifices that please God. [1 Peter 2:5]
one who has become a priest not on the basis of a regulation as to his ancestry but on the basis of the power of an indestructible life.[Heb 7:16]
YES WE DO WEAR THAT GLORIFIED GARMENT OF CHRIST RIGHT NOW! ON THIS EARTH. DECLARED RIGHTEOUS AND CLOTHED BY HIM
SITTING IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH HIM. GLORY. WE have inherited all things of heaven and earth. We go in and out of the spiritual city
as we walk on this earth[see Paul's testimony about caught up to paradise/whether in or out of the body,I do not know]No vail constrains
in the spirit. There is a time when we will go in and come out no more. We who used to be alienated from Him,have now through the spirit
inherited this earth[the better spiritual resurrection has come] the camp'tent' our flesh/of the Holy city[our spirits] dwell and exist at present.
Has the Glory of Christ not been revealed?in us... has the Holy spirit not let us into the wilderness and given us back the vineyards? Has He not
'wooed' us with His love? Has He not caused Babylon to fall for our sakes? Has He not abyssed satan?'accusor" Do we not judge 'angels' spirit messages
whether of Christ or not? Does not the spirit of Christ reign in us through His Holy spirit? Do we not rule the nations[uncircumcized flesh/carnal] with a rod of iron
= JUDGE AS CARNAL TEACHING eternal torture,in essence 'shattering that vessel of wrath' into bits by the truth revealed in Him?
I see these things occurring now. The further increasing of it will become a mountain filling the earth[MT ZION].
'tent' maker.....you are a camp of the Holy city NOW....awaiting the fire of His spirit to deliver from all opposition. THE LORD REIGNS!
:thumbsup: :bgdance: :bgdance:
BOOM goes the dynamite Sheila :HeartThrob:
8For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:
9(For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth;)
30For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.
31For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.
32This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.
--Eph 5
There are dimensions to everything. And the flesh I referred to was carnal flesh in us. Why can't flesh and blood enter into the kingdom? For me, flesh and blood is based on natural reasoning, which is directly connected to the temporal side of man. Where as the spirit of man is where the truth of God is revealed because it's a spirit to spirit language. If flesh could enter into spiritual, there would have been no need for the circumcision.
This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after that time," declares the LORD. "I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people.[Jer 31:33]
I delight to do Your will, O my God, Your law is within my heart. [Psa 40:8]
But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God. [Rom 2:29]
But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God. [Rom 2:29]
I'm never quite sure what the intent is when "just" a passage of Scripture is posted with no remarks included . . . but much of our tennis-ball conversations seem to stem from verses like the one above. All I can speak to is my own intentions of where it is I'm coming from. My intent is merely to illuminate the importance of spiritual pursuit over natural logic or reasoning.
When I say everything is spiritual or dimensional, it's merely stating what this verse is also touching on. The "reason" behind physical circumcision was to reveal the spiritual principle of the "spiritual" circumcision that takes place within every one of us individually. Ever wonder "why there?" Why "that" flesh? Why from males and not females? Why couldn't it have been excess flesh from around the waste? Or under one's arm, or even ones chin? Why did it have to be the flesh that was a part of the male organ?
There is GREAT significance to all of this. But that's only one tiny part of what's being stated here. Why did he then also say "not in the letter . . ." What message is he trying to tell us? Could it be that he's trying to tell us that the things God shows us inwardly should take precedence of the things our eyes "read" in Scripture? Because "that's" where God speaks to his children, through their hearts rather than their heads? "Scripture was inspired by the Holy Ghost . . ." Of course it was, The "spirit" inspired men to write it, so wouldn't it only make sense that what is spiritually inspired is to be spiritually discerned? Yet many spend so much time and effort building a reputation for themselves based on their "knowledge" of what the "letter" is stating rather than receiving the unseen message the Spirit is giving through what's been written.
We all would love to receive recommendation from each other. We all would love to have pats on the backs from each other, telling us how much the things we've said really spoke to them. But the truth is, it's not our spirit that desires that attention, it's our ego. Our spirit desires the pat on the back from the Spirit that authored the Scripture, not from the hands of others who's minds agree with our interpretations. It'd be great if we had both, but the more you delve into the spiritual matters, the more it stirs up resistance in the minds of those to whom you are trying to spiritually release your seed in. Everything is reactive to the season in which it's living in. It's "our" responsibility to know what season the other individual is in as to whether or not life-seeds can be planted in their fields.
Paul was trying to relay the same thing in this verse. It's not what is outwardly that matters, it's what's inwardly. We are all Jews "inwardly" because the Holy Spirit has/is/continues to circumcise our carnality from our life-releasing spirit . . ."that's" why it was to be removed from the male organ, it's connected to reproduction . . .always is.
Or you could also say it is connected to farming. Our God is a farmer.
Thus the seed lies dormant until its hard shell is cut and watered, then, as it breaks through the soil, sunlight!
Our hard hearts are like that seed, and the word of God is the circumcisor.
For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart. Heb 4:12
Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom, but can flesh?
Oh yes.
I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. Eze 36:26
You shift spiritual gears . . .carnal flesh and flesh and blood are the same thing. . . on one level/dimension.
But the flesh you speak of is not carnal, but spiritual . . . he doesn't write his word upon my flesh of carnality, flesh profits nothing . . .
but upon my heart of flesh that you speak of is upon my inward nature, my spirit man, my anointed man . . . we just gotta define one dimension from another is all.
Quote from: Nathan on September 28, 2011, 02:14:48 AM
You shift spiritual gears . . .carnal flesh and flesh and blood are the same thing. . . on one level/dimension.
But the flesh you speak of is not carnal, but spiritual . . . he doesn't write his word upon my flesh of carnality, flesh profits nothing . . .
but upon my heart of flesh that you speak of is upon my inward nature, my spirit man, my anointed man . . . we just gotta define one dimension from another is all.
Yes!
The flesh of Christ!
And the Word became flesh.
:thumbsup:.......and even to this day....you can 'TEST" a spirit...by this very thing......for they will deny the 'word of God..come in flesh. :HeartThrob:
the 'New' Creature, the New Jerusalem, the New earth, the New heart, the New spirit...I make ALL things NEW!....
though our 'outward' man perish,yet, Our inner man is RE...NEWED DAILY :HeartThrob:
What We Have Tasted
Enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come. (Hebrews 6:4-5)
THOUGH the thrust of this verse goes in another direction, it gives us a brief but amazing picture of what it means for us to know Christ.
We have been enlightened. This is a work of the Holy Spirit, who convicts the world of sin, righteousness and judgment (John 16:8). In other words, He reveals to us the Lord Jesus Christ, the Light of the World (John 1:4-9). The Spirit reveals the things of God, which would otherwise be unintelligible to us (1 Corinthians 2:9-14). Early Church Fathers saw in this a reference to baptism, the sign of initiation into the truth of the gospel and the body of Christ.
We have tasted the heavenly gift. To taste is to experience. We experience the heavenly gift. "Gift" means that it is not earned by us or owed to us. It is given freely to us as an act of divine grace and we receive it simply by faith. It is not of this age but of the next. It does not come from earth but from heaven. It is the kingdom of God breaking into the present age, the will of God being done on earth as it is in heaven (Matthew 6:10). Early Church Fathers saw in this a reference to the Eucharist, the Table of the Lord, the continuing sign of Christ's presence in the world.
We have become partakers of the Holy Spirit. "Companions" of the Holy Spirit is how the HCSB puts it. This is divine fellowship with the One by whom we cry out joyfully, "Abba, Father" (Romans 8:15). He reveals and works in us everything that belongs or pertains to Jesus (John 16:15). He brings forth in us divine fruits, the character of Christ (Galatians 5:22-23). He gives us manifestations of divine power by which He works miracles among us (1 Corinthians 12:1-11; Galatians 3:5). He ministers to us the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of the Father.
We have tasted the good word of God. This is the message of the gospel, the good news of Jesus Christ, in whom all God's promises to us are fulfilled in every way. No good thing does He withhold from us who have become the righteousness of God in Jesus Christ (Psalm 84:11; 2 Corinthians 5:21).
We have tasted the powers of the age to come. The Greek word for "powers" is dunamis, often translated as "miracles" (for example, 1 Corinthians 12:10 and Galatians 3:5). It is the miracle-working power of God. It is not of this age but of God's kingdom age now breaking into the world. It is the power of the Holy Spirit by which Jesus healed all who were oppressed of the devil (Acts 10:38). It is the power Jesus promised His disciples would receive when the Holy Spirit came upon them (Acts 1:8). Paul said that God is "able to do exceedingly abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that works in us" (Ephesians 3:20).
Though we live in this present age, as believers in Jesus Christ, we are part of the next. We are not relics of the past but agents of God's coming kingdom. Jesus taught us to pray, "Kingdom of God, come! Will of God, be done on earth as it is in heaven." The tense of the Greek verbs speaks of a continuous action. We are not waiting for the kingdom of God to begin — it has begun already. We pray for it to increase until it is present in all its fullness. As John said, "The darkness is passing away, and the true light is already shining" (1 John 2:8).
Jesus also taught us to pray, "Give us this day our daily bread." This has usually been taken to be a request to meet today's need with today's substance. But the Greek word for "daily" actually speaks of "the coming day." What day is that? The day of God's kingdom fullness, the day when His will is completely done on earth as in heaven.
We have tasted the bread of this present age and it does not sustain. There is no life to it. It is full of darkness and is already passing away. The provision we need is the substance of God's kingdom, the will of heaven manifest on earth — the bread of that coming day. The prayer is that God give us that bread today. It is a prayer God has been answering ever since Jesus taught us to pray it, and will continue to answer until heaven and earth are one.
God gives us that bread today, so that we may experience, in this life, the heavenly gift, the good word of God, the powers of the age to come and fellowship with God by His Spirit. Christ gave His body and shed His blood — tasted death for us — that we might taste these things (Hebrews 2:9).
http://www.walkingbarefoot.com/writings/WhatWeHaveTasted.htm
© 2009 by Jeff Doles.
All Rights Reserved.
You are welcome to print it out for personal or small group use. You may also reprint it for non-profit publications online or offline. Just email us let us know — we would love to hear about it. Also, please be sure to include the copyright notice (found at the bottom of each article) along with the following:
"JEFF DOLES is a Christian author, blogger and Bible teacher. His books include The Kingdom of Heaven on Earth: Keys to the Kingdom of God in the Gospel of Matthew and Praying With Fire: Change Your World with the Powerful Prayers of the Apostles. He and his wife, Suzanne, are the founders of Walking Barefoot Ministries. Visit their website at www.walkingbarefoot.com."
some powerful words there :thumbsup:
Indeed, the Kingdom of Heaven is in your midst[inner man]
Quote from: Molly on September 25, 2011, 05:59:17 AM
This is a stronger phrase than 'never,' Micah.
It's a double negative.
shall never, ever die
shall never, never die
shall never, NOT EVER, die
Age is the keyword of that verse. "Never" or "not ever" or "never ever" or whatever way you want to translate it is of no importance if "Age" isn't understood.
The verse
only discusses death during that age. Not death during other periods of time.
Quote from: micah7:9 on September 25, 2011, 02:15:37 AM
BELIEVERS DO NOT DIE FOR THE EON
Notice how more responsible translators have rendered this verse:
On that mission again Micah? :laughing7:
I must say I fully agree. (Maybe for different reasons)
I think it's a direct reference to LoF/1000 years.
Quote from: micah7:9 on September 25, 2011, 06:28:15 AM
Grasping to the teaching that Jesus died for us and that from His dying in the flesh[His body dying/quit breathing]that we dont have to die{our body of flesh], for we shall never die; it would seem there maybe some kind of fear of that dying.
Besides, Paul taught that the wages of sin is death. Jesus died, gave His life for the sin of the world, I do not understand how that defaults, how we, as individuals escape that wage.
The Jews had 2 types of sin offerings.
For individuals. Could be done every day.
For the Jewish nation. Was done on atonement day.
John 11 [ACV]
51 Now he said this not from himself, but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus was going to die
for the nation.
Quote from: Molly on September 26, 2011, 05:26:25 PMFirst of all, I reject that is what Gen 2:17 says. It says, thou shalt surely die! --muth said twice for emphasis. As long as Adam is in the garden with access to the tree of life, he is not dying. He is living. It is his separation from God that causes his death condition.
Nope. I remember your only defense was that we should burn YLT (which you quoted alter at your convenience)
My thought is that you are not open to verses. You verify verses against your personal doctrine instead of teh otehr way around.
First of all the correct translation is dying.
Secondly it doesn't say Adam was dying in the Garden.
The dying started when Adam ate from that tree. Shortly afterwards they were kicked out of the garden. So yes it can be argued they where dying in the Garden. But that was only a brief period of time. The unknown lenght of time before that the were not dying in the Garden
QuoteJesus has reconciled us with God. We are no longer separated from God. Through Christ, we are no longer death food for the serpent.
Yeah, reconciled as in made certain promisses. Promisses about an endresult.
Remembe that the
last enemy done away with is death.
So as far as I'm concerned people can die. Be resurrected. Judged. Cast into LoF. Exit LoF and "start living".
Absolutely nothing of that mimimizes the things Jesus did. Make Him a failure. Makes Him "not enough". Etc and other things suggested in similar discussions.
In fact it's a view that doesn't require to ignore a single verse.
Quote from: jabcat on September 25, 2011, 10:03:25 PM
Romans 8:9 You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. 10 But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus 4 from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you.
When?
Quote from: CHB on September 26, 2011, 08:59:08 PM
Another LOGICALLY thing is, when Jesus was resurrected he had not ascended to the Father right away, how do you explain that as to us going on to heaven when we die?
Neither did He jump of the cross right after "It is finished".
He was dead for a while.
something to consider about the 1000 year Messiah's reign[eternal,generation unto generation] Micah 4;4 and Zechariah 3;10....each man will sit
under his own vine and vig tree. All the nations may walk in the name of their gods,we will walk in the name of the Lord.
When Christ sit at the right hand of God..He was reigning with Him. The Grace of God as manna from heaven'what is it?' tasted like what each preferred..
thus sitting under their own vine and fig tree, but we shall walk in the name of our God, bespeaks circumcized hearts of overcomers..eating'hidden'
manna/spirit/truth vine.
another thing in regard to 1000 year reign........and to what it speaks about....in the day ye eat from it,ye shall die.1000 years as a day/Day of
Judgement and Day of Salvation. Adam died at 930 years...God cut the time of man dwelling in this day in flesh to 70 years...= day of judgement
of all in Adam. Now Christ's reign of a thousand years is to raise up condemned/dead in Adam as new creature.
My understanding is this...those that are spiritually quickened in Christ while in the flesh/receive His spirit are first resurrection/reigning with Christ
during time in flesh/overcomers of the world through Christ. The rest of the dead were not resurrected until the 1000 years were over, in my understanding
is that they died in Adam and were raised up after death/righteous. gift in Christ. they remain unspiritually quickened in Christ the entire time they
dwell in the flesh on earth/the rest of the dead did not come to life until the end of the 1000 years[Christ Lord of the living and dead].
His reign has been from generation to generation since He sat at His Father's right hand. He began reigning in the midst of His enemies, is the spirit
given to the inner man that was once at enmity with Him. Love is as strong as death.
so, I differ in my understanding as to where we are in spiritual timeing, I see Him already reigning[Father already sunjecting everything under Him] while
some of you await His coming reign.
as far as eans and ages,He has not taught me these understanding. The understanding I do have is this. Time,Times and half a time. the time of Him appearing
to us, the times of the gentiles and the half a time, where He cuts it short. 3 and 1/2 days and nights in the center of the earth. For at His
resurrection those also dead in Christ are raised up with Him. 3 1/2 year ministry to finish it.
the kinsman redeemer,brother of Adam, raised up children for his dead brother
Quote from: sheila on September 28, 2011, 06:20:00 PM
something to consider about the 1000 year Messiah's reign[eternal,generation unto generation] Micah 4;4 and Zechariah 3;10....each man will sit
under his own vine and vig tree. All the nations may walk in the name of their gods,we will walk in the name of the Lord.
When Christ sit at the right hand of God..He was reigning with Him.
I don'y understand that :mblush:
Father has given everything in the Son's hands. Jesus rules His own millenium kingdom. His reign ends and Father becomes all in all.
To me that sounds that Father basicly does nothing. Just a distant name in the Bible that was there in early Genesis and shows up again at the end of Revelation.
:dontknow:
QuoteMy understanding is this...those that are spiritually quickened in Christ while in the flesh/receive His spirit are first resurrection/reigning with Christ
during time in flesh/overcomers of the world through Christ.
When does that resurrection take place. Before or after the secular defenition of death?
QuoteThe rest of the dead were not resurrected until the 1000 years were over, in my understanding
That's my understanding too. And it completely debunks every idea people can't die or otherwise Jesus somehow failed on the cross and didn't pay in full.
Quoteso, I differ in my understanding as to where we are in spiritual timeing, I see Him already reigning[Father already sunjecting everything under Him]
Does that reign/subjecting end exactly at the moment we die (secular defenition)?
1Cor 15 [ACV]
25 For he must reign until he will put all his enemies under his feet.
BTW note one of those enemies is death...
I hope your answer is no... :winkgrin:
Hi ww
1 Jesus does thw works of the Father..Father's power was with Him, by my spirit. Jesus and the Father are ONE SPIRIT.
2.Before while in flesh for thos made spiritually alive in Christ by Holy spirit[they were once dead in sin and tresspass.] at death/or spirit returning are clothed in immortal body. The rest of the dead are resurrected spiritually and new body after death[spiritual/body in Adam] Free gift applied
3 Christ Lord of living and dead. He gives free gift to all that were in Adam/died...now
Jesus Christ's mission was to restore prodigal sons to their Father/God...so in the parable of Christ
as elder son...He went forth and recovered and paid cost to restore prodigals to Father.
4. does Christs reign end exactly when we die? No..He has authority over the dead to raise them up in Heaven and restore them unto Father, which is exactly what He does,after He restores
As He told us, nothing is impossible with God
Quote from: sheila on September 28, 2011, 07:45:26 PM
Hi ww
1 Jesus does thw works of the Father..Father's power was with Him, by my spirit. Jesus and the Father are ONE SPIRIT.
That's forbiden trinity stuff :winkgrin: But my guess is by reading my previous post you have figured out my view on that.
Quote2.Before while in flesh for thos made spiritually alive in Christ by Holy spirit[they were once dead in sin and tresspass.] at death/or spirit returning are clothed in immortal body. The rest of the dead are resurrected spiritually and new body after death[spiritual/body in Adam] Free gift applied
So right now Jesus is ruling and a certain amount of saints are resurrected. How do they aid Jesus with that ruling?
Quote3 Christ Lord of living and dead. He gives free gift to all that were in Adam/died...now
Jesus Christ's mission was to restore prodigal sons to their Father/God...so in the parable of Christ
as elder son...He went forth and recovered and paid cost to restore prodigals to Father.
My point isn't about "be able" or "will do". Only about exactly when.
Quote4. does Christs reign end exactly when we die? No..He has authority over the dead to raise them up in Heaven and restore them unto Father, which is exactly what He does,after He restores
As He told us, nothing is impossible with God
I wasn't implying Jesus lost control and/or is defeated by death. Basicly my question was: Does Father all-in-all start at death?
all in all is about restored relationship with Father and all our brothers, a re-union of all in the family in Love. When restored to sonship with the Father,
Jesus turns them over to the Father.... we are in his likeness and image. The Kingdom of the Love of His son...which is what Father wants...His
sons to love respect and honour Him.
hi ww,where have you been?
If I could try to outline the dispute for you, it involves this particular passage:
and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?" John 11:26 [KJV]
This passage concerns me personally since I live and believe in Jesus. It says I will never die.
The dispute is --Micah says, that is not what it says in the Greek. In the Greek it says, [some of the translations he gave] shall [not] die to the age, shall [not] die unto times age abiding, etc.
He wants that age thing in there because it is in the Greek.
My point is whether you put the age thing in there or not, it is still saying I will never die--because first I will live in heaven with Christ for the age, and then I will be resurrected in my glorified body and reign with Christ in the next age, etc, if that is the way the timing works out. Either way, I am never going to die from this time going forward.
The implication is that those who do not believe in Jesus will suffer a different fate, that is, they will die.
But, as Sheila pointed out, Jesus is also Lord of the dead, so they are not doomed, just delayed.
Micah disagrees with me. He says I will die even though I believe in Jesus.
Anyway, I think the KJV got it right in terms of meaning. Some will never die and some will die [and be resurrected in the next age or the one after that.]
Quote from: Molly on September 28, 2011, 08:54:51 PM
hi ww,where have you been?
Few days of threads that don't intrest me; few days visiting my parents. I think I decended from two light creatures :boyheart: :girlheart:
QuoteIf I could try to outline the dispute for you, it involves this particular passage:
and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?" John 11:26 [KJV]
I know Molly. Actually I jotted down an answer to that verse because it was being discussed in another thread. (Many I other threads)
QuoteThis passage concerns me personally since I live and believe in Jesus. It says I will never die.
Unlike Micah you always stay vague....
What does that mean to you?
a] Your flesh body doesn't die. In that case I simply disagree. A lot.
b] You die but your spirit instantly steps into the next world. You know NDE style white light.
QuoteThe dispute is --Micah says, that is not what it says in the Greek. In the Greek it says, [some of the translations he gave] shall [not] die to the age, shall [not] die unto times age abiding, etc.
The way I understand Michah I agree with him 100%.
It's about an age. It's about dying. Not death. Note that I think the second death is NOT death. It's being fully alive but the bad habits die. Correcting. Purging. Seperating wheat from chaff are all terms that spring to mind.
QuoteHe wants that age thing in there because it is in the Greek.
I think you can't blame him for sticking to the Book he truely thinks is inspired....
QuoteMy point is whether you put the age thing in there or not, it is still saying I will never die--because first I will live in heaven with Christ for the age, and then I will be resurrected in my glorified body and reign with Christ in the next age, etc, if that is the way the timing works out. Either way, I am never going to die from this time going forward.
In a nutshell (only) focused on life and death.
Look up the secular defenition of death. Death according to an atheist.
That death did not exit before Adam ate from the tree.
Afterwards that death did exit.
I think it still exits.
Anyway Jesus payed the price in full. Jesus bought back life.
But that DOES not mean Jesus is handing out the gift of life instantly. We know eventually He will hand it out (the resurrections)
But when exactly He hands it out?
I don't know. I wouldn't suprised that it is after his second coming.
I'm getting a bit of topic.
I'll rewrite your favorite verse a few times to show what I mean
- and believes in me will never die.
- and believes will not be dying for the age.
- and believes will not be dying in that mysterious not so well defined age.
- and believes in me will not die a second death in LoF that lasts an age.
Matt 25 [ACV]
46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
And these unbelievers will be dying for an age, but the "and believes in me" into eternal life.
As a summary: Matthew 25:46 = John 11:26
QuoteThe implication is that those who do not believe in Jesus will suffer a different fate,
Yes.
Quotethat is, they will die
a second time.
QuoteBut, as Sheila pointed out, Jesus is also Lord of the dead, so they are not doomed, just delayed.
Agreed but beter would be the believers get a headstart.
QuoteMicah disagrees with me. He says I will die even though I believe in Jesus.
Micah-Molly 1-0
The only thing you (possibly) escape, is the 2nd death.
QuoteAnyway, I think the KJV got it right in terms of meaning.
In case of disagreement in translations by default I don't trust that Constantinian translation.
QuoteSome will never die and some will die [and be resurrected in the next age or the one after that.]
Well I don't know your exact life style but aren't any better than the Apostles who all are dead...
They died the natural death, but before they died naturally, they had first experienced spiritual life . . .the kind that never dies. So even though . .before life came to them, they were alive naturally, but dead spiritually . . .and now, even though they died naturally, they continue to live spiritually.
And even though Micah pounds on all the Scriptures that speak of death . . .for me, it's not pertaining to spiritual death, only physical . . .when a person dies "physically" their "physical" body returns to the dust, their spirit is the essence of who they are . . .it does as Paul claimed it would . . .it continues to live on in the presence of the Lord.
By the way, this thought came to me last night . . . Was not part of the reason why Jesus came in the flesh was to show how we in the flesh could be free "from" the flesh through the EXAMPLE Jesus left us with? Was he not the ultimate example for us? Which would also include his death. If the belief is that "we" are all going to remain in a grave "until" THE resurrection . . . you would have to also say that Jesus also, when he died was in "soul sleep" also would you not? Even though Scripture clearly states when his body gave it's last breath, he released his spirit back to the Father who sent it. And between that point and the moment his spirit was returned to his body, there was much still transpiring . . .kind a hard to exist while your soul is dead isn't it?
If Jesus wasn't in a place of suspension or whatever for those three days, what would make us think that "we" would be as well then?
I don't ask that as one looking for an answer, I just ask it in an attempt to have others give thought to it.
ww, I'm not sure what you are saying, but what I believe that verse is telling me is that I have been offered uninterrupted life.
There will be no interruption in my consciousness, memory, awareness, etc --in fact, I'm thinking that after I leave this tent I won't even sleep--that is loss of conscious awareness. 2 Cor 5:1 says that God has prepared an eternal [aionios] body for me in heaven for when I leave this tent. It is more permanent than this tent, even if it is just for the aion.
So--in short--uninterrupted life from this time going forward, no matter what body I am in. Thus, I will always be present with the Lord, as I am now, but in even more glorious ways in the future.
Of course, I don't need this verse to tell me this, because I already know it.
Quote from: Nathan on September 28, 2011, 10:52:30 PM
They died the natural death, but before they died naturally, they had first experienced spiritual life . . .the kind that never dies. So even though . .before life came to them, they were alive naturally, but dead spiritually . . .and now, even though they died naturally, they continue to live spiritually.
And even though Micah pounds on all the Scriptures that speak of death . . .for me, it's not pertaining to spiritual death, only physical . . .when a person dies "physically" their "physical" body returns to the dust, their spirit is the essence of who they are . . .it does as Paul claimed it would . . .it continues to live on in the presence of the Lord.
By the way, this thought came to me last night . . . Was not part of the reason why Jesus came in the flesh was to show how we in the flesh could be free "from" the flesh through the EXAMPLE Jesus left us with? Was he not the ultimate example for us? Which would also include his death. If the belief is that "we" are all going to remain in a grave "until" THE resurrection . . . you would have to also say that Jesus also, when he died was in "soul sleep" also would you not? Even though Scripture clearly states when his body gave it's last breath, he released his spirit back to the Father who sent it. And between that point and the moment his spirit was returned to his body, there was much still transpiring . . .kind a hard to exist while your soul is dead isn't it?
If Jesus wasn't in a place of suspension or whatever for those three days, what would make us think that "we" would be as well then?
I don't ask that as one looking for an answer, I just ask it in an attempt to have others give thought to it.
Nathan, Jesus did die, spirit, soul, and body, if he didn't then how could our spirit, soul and body be free of sin? Jesus remained in the grave 3 days and nights. Remember Jesus telling on of the women that he hadn't ascended to the Father yet? This was after his resurrection.
CHB
CHB: This says after Jesus' death he was quickened by the Spirit. He preached to the spirits in prison.
18For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
21The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
22Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.
1 Peter 3
This says he was in hades.
he looked ahead and spoke of the resurrection of the Christ, that HE WAS NEITHER ABANDONED TO HADES, NOR DID His flesh SUFFER DECAY. [Acts 2:31]
This says he led a host of prisoners on high when he ascended from the grave [Hades]. He's bringing them to heaven with him.
Therefore it says, "WHEN HE ASCENDED ON HIGH, HE LED CAPTIVE A HOST OF CAPTIVES, AND HE GAVE GIFTS TO MEN."[Eph 4:9]
well His spirit lives in our dead bodies :mshock: and quickens them
it's called in the manner of Mechezedek...without beginning without end..FOREVER....
To the church of Philadelphia:
Revelation 3:8
I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.
What is this open door set before the church of Philadelphia? Of all the churches, the church of brotherly love is the one to receive this gift.
Is it the same open door set before the apostle John?
After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
--Rev4:1
And, again, a door is open to five out of ten virgins, and shut to the other five.
1Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.
2And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.
3They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:
4But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.
5While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.
6And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.
7Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.
8And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.
9But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.
10And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
11Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
12But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
13Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.
--Mat 25
This is talking about the marriage. Once this marriage takes place, we are partakers of the flesh and bones of the resurrected Christ---and the two shall become one flesh--seated with him in heaven on the right hand of God. We are raised with Christ with the same power [energeia] that God used to raise Jesus from the dead. We are raised with the faith of Christ.
This happened when you were placed in the tomb with Christ through baptism. In baptism you were also brought back to life with Christ through faith in the power [energeia] of God, who brought him back to life. [Col 2:12]
And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,
7That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. [Eph 2]
These are the ones, resurrected before they die, who will never never die into the ages. [John 11:26]
I tell you the truth, he who believes in me has everlasting life. [Jn 6:47]
Romans 6:14 For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace.
so that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. [Rom 5:21]
John 5:24 "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.
I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life. [1 John 5:13]
Quote from: Molly on September 29, 2011, 01:49:51 AM
CHB: This says after Jesus' death he was quickened by the Spirit.
After... It doesn't say instantly.
QuoteHe preached to the spirits in prison.
Quote18For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
"In prison" (en phulakēi) would be a metaphor for Israel's captivity to sin or satan (cf. Matt. 12:29; Mk. 3:27; Lk. 11:21). Isaiah says that the servant of the Lord will "bring out from bonds those who are bound and from the prison (phulakas) house those who sit in darkness" (Is. 42:7 LXX).
http://www.postost.net/commentary/1-pet/3/did-jesus-preach-spirits-prison-between-his-death-resurrection
.....and the creature was subjected to vanity,not of it's own will,but by the will of He who subjected it...in order that
the whole creation would be set FREE....INTO THE GLORIOUS LIBERTY OF THE SONS OF GOD
He will place the sheep at his right hand and the goats at his left. [Mat 25:33]
Awake, awake! Clothe yourself with strength, O arm of the LORD; awake, as in days gone by, as in generations of old. [Isa 51:19]
The Lord hath prepared his holy arm in the sight of all the Gentiles: and all the ends of the earth shall see THE SALVATION OF OUR GOD [Y'shuah elohiym]. [Isa 52:10]
Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and ARISE FROM THE DEAD, and Christ shall give thee light.
--Eph 5:14
"ARISE, shine, for your light has come, and the glory of the LORD rises upon you. [Isa 61]
Just out of curiosity, what is the importance about this idea that Jesus was 100% dead and not alive until after his resurrection? Why is there such an emphasis on death at all? What's the significance?
There is a way that seems right to a man,but in the end it leads to death. Now the spirit of Christ Our Lord leads us to the tree of life.
I am concerned that some of the little children may have stumbled, or we have not addressed something fully
Let them speak their concerns...maybe they will be reassured by what
the holy spirit brings out to them on the board. And a clearer declaration of scriptures and spirit will edify us all.
Psalms 116;15 Precious in the sight of the Lord is the death of His saints
The last enemy to be overcome is death...maybe we need to prepare better for it. The squeeky wheel gets the 'oil"
The last enemy is death . . .
Question . . .
Did or did "not" Jesus already over come that?
For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. [Rom 8:2]
But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves to God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life. [Rom 6:22]
Of course Jesus overcome death...but maybe, He is concerned for some of the little ones that have not quite attained it,yet.
FEED MY SHEEP
Quote from: sheila on September 29, 2011, 04:50:27 PM
Of course Jesus overcome death...but maybe, He is concerned for some of the little ones that have not quite attained it,yet.
FEED MY SHEEP
I thought I was serving up a banquet. :mshock:
What if it's already accomplished . .. like everything else he set out to do . . .but because people are still in a "flatland" position, they can't "see" the finished state. Even when you explain it, they would rather hang on to what they can prove rather than what can't be seen.
And Molly, I thought your last post where you quoted Scripture really does answer the question . . .We are free from the "law of death". Which is kinda why I've been questioning the reasoning behind the emphasis on this death issue in the first place. If eternal life is truly in us, why all of the talk about the goings on after death? Or, for that matter, why think that we'll be "in" death if we're free from the law of death??
:laughing7: I know it! Me,too! But maybe it need's to be 'examined further"?
Micah 4;2 Come, let us go up to the Mountain of the Lord[transfiguration], to the House of the God of Jacob
He will teach us His ways,so that we may walk in His paths
I had considered sharing this but kinda side-stepped the idea as it would probably call for its' own thread, but you just made it relevant. This came out of our study last night as we journey through the book of Genesis. Here's the context . . .
Genesis 26
12Then Isaac sowed in that land, and received in the same year an hundredfold: and the LORD blessed him.
13And the man waxed great, and went forward, and grew until he became very great:
14For he had possession of flocks, and possession of herds, and great store of servants: and the Philistines envied him.
15For all the wells which his father's servants had digged in the days of Abraham his father, the Philistines had stopped them, and filled them with earth.
16And Abimelech said unto Isaac, Go from us; for thou art much mightier than we.
17And Isaac departed thence, and pitched his tent in the valley of Gerar, and dwelt there.
18And Isaac digged again the wells of water, which they had digged in the days of Abraham his father; for the Philistines had stopped them after the death of Abraham: and he called their names after the names by which his father had called them.
19And Isaac's servants digged in the valley, and found there a well of springing water.
20And the herdmen of Gerar did strive with Isaac's herdmen, saying, The water is ours: and he called the name of the well Esek; (quarreling) because they strove with him.
21And they digged another well, and strove for that also: and he called the name of it Sitnah. (enmity)
22And he removed from thence, and digged another well; and for that they strove not: and he called the name of it Rehoboth; and he said, For now the LORD hath made room for us, and we shall be fruitful in the land.
23And he went up from thence to Beersheba.
24And the LORD appeared unto him the same night, and said, I am the God of Abraham thy father: fear not, for I am with thee, and will bless thee, and multiply thy seed for my servant Abraham's sake.
The reason why I say you just made this relevant is because of your comment about "examine this further" and then you quoted Scripture about where the actual source of truth is at . . .which is not in other men, but in the Mountain of the Lord .. .
But the story in the context is about a person who is trying to "find" their "place" and every time they dig a well . . .signifying a spiritual connection with God . . . someone comes along and fills their well back in with . . .. earth . . .flesh . .. carnality . . .natural reasonings . . . so what once was a well of refreshment and life, now has been named as quarreling . . .the next well, same thing, but it's named as "enmity" . . .that Genesis word about the conflict between my soul and spirit . . .between the spiritual and natural . . .much like the conversations happening on the boards . . .but finally, he gets far enough away from the nay-sayers to where he finds home. Finally, he gets to a places that's beyond the reaches of the "noise" of earth-dwellers that he can rest in the "sound" of his position in God.
At that point . . .he goes "up". It's an ascended place. Only after he gets beyond the reaches of those who use earth, carnal ways to fill in his spiritual source of strength . . .with in me, only when I get above the noise of my flesh do I then set myself up to be "caught up" to the upper room where the flowing well of the spirit can be poured out upon ALL flesh. And THAT'S when the Lord can finally "appear" to him. And like Jesus did with Peter in making his relationship "personal", God did the same thing here. Fear not, for I am with you . . .we've heard that song over and over. "Fear not . ..for "I" am with you . . ." But I don't think we have the emphasis quite right. I think it was more like . . ."Fear not, for I am with YOU. . . it brings it down to me as an individual with God rather than just an inclusion with all the rest who try to pursue God's promises. But in all of it . . .he had to first get beyond those that kept filling his wells of living water with their earth-thinking ways.
:thumbsup: The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few,
ASK THE LORD OF THE HARVEST,THERE FORE,TO SEND OUT WORKERS INTO HIS HARVEST FIELD
When He saw the crowds He had compassion on them,because they were harassed and helpless,like sheep without a shepherd
stellar post Nathan!
He will give eternal life to those who keep on doing good, seeking after the glory and honor and immortality that God offers. [Rom 2:7]
Even now the reaper draws his wages, even now he harvests the crop for eternal life, so that the sower and the reaper may be glad together.[Jn 4:30]
Grace to all who love our Lord Jesus Christ with an undying love.[Eph 6:24]
You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised.[Heb 10:36]
"immortality"
G861
ἀφθαρσία
aphtharsia
af-thar-see'-ah
From G862; incorruptibility; generally unending existence; (figuratively) genuineness: - immortality, incorruption, sincerity.
'If anyone is thirsty,let him come to me and drink, Whoever beleives in me,as the scripture has said, STREAMS OF LIVING WATER WILL FLOW
FROM WITHIN HIM. By this,He meant, THE SPIRIT,whom those who beleived in Him,were later to receive