eve the serpent

[WhiteWings]

It means for example he disagrees wth most Jewish scholars who are are mostly universalists

What do you mean by Jewish scholars?  All the ones I have known were atheists.

That's impossible. That would make them Hebrew scholars. :winkgrin:

Do you mean priests from ancient times? Or rabbi's today?

"Today".
There are several sites where Jews can ask a Rabbi al sort of questions. Or just articles from a Jewish perspective. The first thing you will notice when looking for such articles it that they are really hard to find. That's a big hint hell isn't a concept considered by Jews. On Christian websites a large percentage is about hell.
The few articles I found are about correction in afterlife. Just from memory. 3 months for most of humanity. Up to 12 months for the very severe cases. A small percentage believes a tiny part will be destroyed completely.
That's for today's orthodox Jews who are AFAIK very similar to Pharisees.

Here's a question for you.  I could see why Jews would be universalists--for the Jews.  But what did they think happens to the Gentiles?

In their view Gentiles are saved too.

Did the ancient rabbi's[priests] or current ones even consider the Gentiles?  Did they ever make a statement about them?
I've seen things in the Talmud that don't paint a pretty picture of Gentiles.  I don't see how the people writing that stuff could be universalists for Gentiles.

Could be. But we should see that seperately from what they think will be teh end result. Obviously in their mind everybody should become Jewish. Or at the very least bow to their God., who is also the Christian God but not of other religions.
I've read an article that the 7 pre-flood commandments are for all people on earth and the 613 of Moses for all Jews. Everyone will be judged accordingly to those commands. I think that means  Gentiles aren't without hope in the Jewish view.
All that isn't unlike Christianity. Or what Gary teaches. Gary believes in UR (yeah really! :winkgrin:) but he also believes everybody should kneel before God. In my understanding Jews excpect such an understanding too.
Not sure about this!! but I remeber a Rabbi teaching Hitler will be friends with his victims.
All that said I'm sure your able to find articles that state all none Jews are eternally doomed. Just like UR is a Chritsian minory view that doesn't believe in classic hell, Jews have a minory view that does believe in ED (for some) and ET.

http://www.myjewishlearning.com/beliefs/Theology/Afterlife_and_Messiah/Life_After_Death/Heaven_and_Hell.shtml
http://www.asktherabbi.org/DisplayQuestion.asp?ID=390
http://www.faqs.org/faqs/judaism/FAQ/06-Jewish-Thought/section-9.html

In that quoute he basicly says: "As shown above, the verses seems to clearly point to Universalism. I don't believe in Universalism so I'll reason it away."

I agree with that.  He's out of his field here and into belief.  Because that verse does clearly point to universalism, what he said after that, didn't make any sense to me.  Did it make sense to you?  It sounded like he was trying his best to not make it universalist.

This article was found on a website, not in a scholarly paper.  He's just chatting with his friends.

He's not just chatting with friends. He has a blog with articles that state his views. Then people can respond to that article. He doesn't interact with his "friends". He just bites at them.

That doesn't detract from his area of expertise.  There is nothing in that verse that requires a Greek or Aramaic expert to understand it.

That's your view. My view is that he plainly admits he does not understand the verse in a scholary way. He clearly admits he set a trap for himself elsewere and now needs to reason himself out of it. Perhaps that's why he uses no scholary approach?



Finally let it be said that I noticed you totally ignored the conclusion of my post :laughing7:

[Molly]

You are trying to tell me that the ancient and current 'Jewish scholars' believe that all the Gentiles will be saved?  Please show me evidence of this.  They were forbidden to even interact with the Gentiles in an intimate way.    So how would they come to that conclusion?  And, I would like to see evidence that this is a mainstream Jewish belief.

My recommendation of Heiser to RHM was not about his universalist beliefs.  Good grief.  It was about RHM finding a source other than the one that told him Eve means the sepent which is one of the most misogynistic things I have ever heard, in addition to being wrong.


RHM also asked questions about pagan names and pagan nations.  Heiser teaches a course on that online.

[WhiteWings]

"Mike has an active ministry to people whose worldview is molded by occult, paranormal, and esoteric beliefs.  He observed that many who have adopted "alternative" worldviews were formerly traditional theists and Christians who left the faith when their questions on difficult passages and topics went unanswered, or when spiritual leaders failed to address experiences they had had."

I don't know if you would call this a 'ministry.'

Maybe that depends on what you think the definition of ministry is.

Reading his article he certainly doesn't sound like  a secular linguist.

He's a Christian with Christian beliefs.  So I suppose in your mind that makes him not a 'secular linguist' which would require him to be atheist.  Neither are the 'Hebrew scholars' you mention secular linguists then.   That doesn't make them any less expert on the Hebrew language.

  He isn't talking about linguistics in that chat session  He's talking about belief.

You are mixing thing up Molly.

For a liguist it doesn't matter if s/he is religious if it's about none Biblical languages. German for example.

But what if linguists are hired for religious translations? No matter what religion their work must be in line who pays them.
Regarding the article:
He refers to other posts he made that clearly show UR is a hoax. The whole aricle is about the fact that the "all verse" sounds very UR.  He gives a doctrinal twist to the answer.
A secular linguist would just have concluded the verses contradict or certain words have a (wide) range of meanings. Secular liguists do care about God's need/desire to (not) punish sinners.
Heiser draws conclusions that are not in his field of expertise (religion).
And yes, that's also true for Jewish scholars/linguists.
Then we see, imo, Heiser is outnumbered a 1000 to 1.
Same goes for Gary and any UR teacher.
Does that make them bad?
No, not in my opinion.
All I said, and repeat is that religion, opinions in general erode sound scholarship.
Compare it to a court.
Say there are two judges. Both, obviously, graduated. One judge just graduated while the  judge that wears the KKK hat graduated with summa cum laude.
Which judge would give the "black criminal" the most honest (scholary) ruling?

[Molly]

Heiser draws conclusions that are not in his field of expertise (religion).

I agree with you on this chat session.  He clearly states that this is sounding like a universalist scripture, and then he twists it so it is not [in his mind].

I have never seen him do anything like that before and I have watched and read hours of his stuff.

But he is not presenting this as a scholarly argument, no matter what you say, he is chatting on his blog.

Read some of his scholarly papers before you condemn him.

When he makes scholarly arguments, he always digs into the original language it was written in.

[redhotmagma]

I never thought that eve and the serpent were the same, but that they had root words linking them.  Btw the article he gives doesn't even mention the aramaic, it just writes off the notion, by linking it with the idea that eve was deceived by sex with the serpent, which was not my thinking anyway, and saying that aramaic is not hebrew, or something to that effect.

But

If eve is the soul, which is(?) the carnal mind, which may be satan (I'm still up in the air on all this), this would give some philological evidence for the link. 

I was just posting it for you molly because I know you seem to adhere to some of his teachings, with the nachash being the shining one, the two powers etc.  This article just confirms what I've felt in reading some of his other writings, that he makes some missteps in his logic, and may not be as trusted a source as previously thought.  Just because someone has a degree, and has books, doesn't mean they actually know what they talk about. 

I see him as many other carnal christians, with a POV to prove, a tainted worldview.  Maybe I'm not giving him a fair shake, but the divine council has not sat well with me from day one, and with him being an ET, thats a big strike against his credibility in my eyes.  Whether thats fair or not, its just the way I judge the matter. :2c:

[Molly]

"The one act of Jesus affects all IN THEORY but actually leads to a subset of many. All could have eternal life and justification, but not all do. Why take it this way? Because it resolves what looks like a contradiction in Paul. In verse 18 Paul says what Jesus did "leads to justification and life for all humanity" but then he turns around and limits it (creates a subset) in the next verse: "so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous." My proposal has Paul make sense here and not appear schizophrenic."
--Heiser


It could be taken that way I guess.  Paul could look schizophrenic in this verse,-- if Jesus' act on the cross leads to justification and life for all, why are only the many made righteous, -- unless--you take into account God's plan for the ages.  Some now, the rest later.  I don't know why he doesn't take this into account.  Maybe he's never thought about it.

[WhiteWings]

You are trying to tell me that the ancient and current 'Jewish scholars' believe that all the Gentiles will be saved?

I wrote I found little on the subject, modern jews thik so and I didn't find information that shows otherwise for ancient Jews.

Please show me evidence of this.

Just read the links I gave you. Just do some Googling.

They were forbidden to even interact with the Gentiles in an intimate way.

So? Not much of interacting was needed for the ancient Jews to conclude the Egyptians, Romans and Greeks were not Jews living by the laws of Moses.

So how would they come to that conclusion?

Just a wild guess: OT study? :winkgrin:

And, I would like to see evidence that this is a mainstream Jewish belief.

I already answered that.

My recommendation of Heiser to RHM was not about his universalist beliefs.  Good grief.

You are long enough on this forum to know threads frequently go off-topic. But in this case I'm not so sure it;s off-topic.
If you truely believe in the scholarship of Heiser you would be better of on a forum like CARM. That's a religious forum and opposes UR.

It was about RHM finding a source other than the one that told him Eve means the sepent which is one of the most misogynistic things I have ever heard, in addition to being wrong.

RHM also asked questions about pagan names and pagan nations.  Heiser teaches a course on that online.

Sure I'm not denying that. I think it was even good you helped Red with that link.
You promoted Heiser so people think: Ha! Molly found a good scholar. Let's read a few good articles.
Just like when I mentiion that most Jews are not ETs you start an "attack" and demand proof of my claims. If that's the right thing to do why aren't others allowed to look beyond the "Heiser-link" you gave?

[Molly]

well, I'm not promotiing the guy for any personal reasons.  I have just found his lectures fascinating, and thought RHM might enjoy them.

So if you want to reject him based on one chat, your loss not mine.

But I notice that you will not present me evidence that Jews believe all the Gentiles will be saved.

And, I don't believe that to be a factual statement.

That belief would only come out of Christianity and Christ's work on the cross.

[redhotmagma]

well, I'm not promotiing the guy for any personal reasons.  I have just found his lectures fascinating, and thought RHM might enjoy them.

So if you want to reject him based on one chat, your loss not mine.

But I notice that you will not present me evidence that Jews believe all the Gentiles will be saved.

And, I don't believe that to be a factual statement.

That belief would only come out of Christianity and Christ's work on the cross.

Molly I do appreciate you pointing me to that link.  I know there is no personal agenda here.

[WhiteWings]

Heiser draws conclusions that are not in his field of expertise (religion).

I agree with you on this chat session.  He clearly states that this is sounding like a universalist scripture, and then he twists it so it is not [in his mind].

I have never seen him do anything like that before and I have watched and read hours of his stuff.

But he is not presenting this as a scholarly argument, no matter what you say, he is chatting on his blog.

Read some of his scholarly papers before you condemn him.

When he makes scholarly arguments, he always digs into the original language it was written in.

Molly I'm not saying he made a scholarly post. I state again I totally agree with that Molly.
Let's say you teach math at a university and you are among the best in your field.
A five year old asks you to help with some calculus. Obviously you will not take the scholary approach that makes even your collegues dizzy.
But neither you will teach the child 6x6=22, which would totally deny your scholastic (sp?) roots. You will use simple words and examples but the answer will be 36 just as you teach your students.

Believes and opions often erode honest research and judgement. Imo everybody (me included) should guard about that. No matter what level that research is on.

You know whitout that article I might have thought. Yep, smart scholar that certainly makes a solid argument. But now I think, true scholarship or force fit religious scholarship?
Still I think there is much to learn from him.
As I wrote in Micahs "Study Bible" thread just read opposing views from scholars and you have the best arguments from both sides.
In the end each induvidual has to make up his/her own mind. Either by reading stuff from scholars or become a scholar in each relevant field.
:2c:

[Molly]

I think math is an unfair comparison.  Math is just applying internal rules.

What I have noticed in general in the field of Biblical studies is that there are no scholars who do not bring a religious bias to the topic.

At least, I haven't seen any.

But in the case of words--yes you are limited by your understanding of words in the original languages.  And, someone who can read the original languages and knows the cultural context of them is head and shoulders over someone who can just compare various English translations to each other.

That type of bias is true of most other fields, as well.

It has even bled into scientific fields now---see:evolution.

ps I consider atheism a religion.

[WhiteWings]

I never thought that eve and the serpent were the same, but that they had root words linking them.

Obviously Eve can't be the snake becaus ethat would mean she had sex with herself or talked to herself.

Btw the article he gives doesn't even mention the Aramaic, it just writes off the notion, by linking it with the idea that eve was deceived by sex with the serpent, which was not my thinking anyway, and saying that Aramaic is not Hebrew, or something to that effect.

I wonder if the languages were different at those times.
Many languages come from the same source. Hebrew uses "loan words" from Aramaic. Just like English uses French words or even Latin.
I wonder that at the time of Moses there was much difference between Hebrew and Aramaic.
The words I have in my avatar is how Moses wrote them. The modern Jewish "square script" was invented by Ezra (father of the Scribes).
The reason btw was that He wanted to distinguish the true words f God from the many paganised Jewish writing that floated around at his time.

But

If eve is the soul, which is(?) the carnal mind, which may be satan (I'm still up in the air on all this), this would give some philological evidence for the link.

If Eve is the soul it would mean Adam and Eve never existed because they were one person.
Anyway sex with the serpent could for example mean that her mind lusted for the fruit of that tree and then she concieved the thought as expressed in Gen 3:1-5

[WhiteWings]

I was just posting it for you molly because I know you seem to adhere to some of his teachings, with the nachash being the shining one, the two powers etc.  This article just confirms what I've felt in reading some of his other writings, that he makes some missteps in his logic, and may not be as trusted a source as previously thought.  Just because someone has a degree, and has books, doesn't mean they actually know what they talk about. 

http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/discussions_universal_salvation/the_fall_man_8424.msg101596.html#msg101596

[Molly]

I was just posting it for you molly because I know you seem to adhere to some of his teachings, with the nachash being the shining one, the two powers etc.  This article just confirms what I've felt in reading some of his other writings, that he makes some missteps in his logic, and may not be as trusted a source as previously thought.  Just because someone has a degree, and has books, doesn't mean they actually know what they talk about. 

http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/discussions_universal_salvation/the_fall_man_8424.msg101596.html#msg101596

What do you think of that article?

[Cardinal]

If Eve is the soul it would mean Adam and Eve never existed because they were one person.
Anyway sex with the serpent could for example mean that her mind lusted for the fruit of that tree and then she concieved the thought as expressed in Gen 3:1-5

:cloud9: Eve was his stony heart that God removed, the rib in type (bones/calcium, a mineral). God called THEIR name Adam. Adam named her Eve.

[WhiteWings]

well, I'm not promotiing the guy for any personal reasons.  I have just found his lectures fascinating, and thought RHM might enjoy them.

So if you want to reject him based on one chat, your loss not mine.

But I notice that you will not present me evidence that Jews believe all the Gentiles will be saved.

I gave you that in a previous post.
http://www.myjewishlearning.com/beliefs/Theology/Afterlife_and_Messiah/Life_After_Death/Heaven_and_Hell.shtml
http://www.asktherabbi.org/DisplayQuestion.asp?ID=390
http://www.faqs.org/faqs/judaism/FAQ/06-Jewish-Thought/section-9.html

Notice how they speak about souls instead of Jews.
And different rules for Jew and gentile.
I don't read ET stuff in that for non-Jews
In fact I;ve read the opposite. You just hve to believe that or not. I can't find the article.
On of the reasons for that is, that's hard to Google for hell related subject concerning Jews.
Imo that means hell is not on their mind. They warn to live a rightous life because God will deal with all tresspasses. But even in those articles they never mention Et hell.
Most certainly there are Jews that could qualify for hell (if it exited) for example one of their own kings (Jochaim IIRC) who burned a Torah scroll.

[WhiteWings]

If Eve is the soul it would mean Adam and Eve never existed because they were one person.
Anyway sex with the serpent could for example mean that her mind lusted for the fruit of that tree and then she concieved the thought as expressed in Gen 3:1-5

:cloud9: Eve was his stony heart that God removed, the rib in type (bones/calcium, a mineral). God called THEIR name Adam. Adam named her Eve.

Ok.
How many persons were Adam and Eve?
2? Male and female?
1? Just one person with a "female mind" ?

[Molly]

well, I'm not promotiing the guy for any personal reasons.  I have just found his lectures fascinating, and thought RHM might enjoy them.

So if you want to reject him based on one chat, your loss not mine.

But I notice that you will not present me evidence that Jews believe all the Gentiles will be saved.

I gave you that in a previous post.
http://www.myjewishlearning.com/beliefs/Theology/Afterlife_and_Messiah/Life_After_Death/Heaven_and_Hell.shtml
http://www.asktherabbi.org/DisplayQuestion.asp?ID=390
http://www.faqs.org/faqs/judaism/FAQ/06-Jewish-Thought/section-9.html

Notice how they speak about souls instead of Jews.
And different rules for Jew and gentile.
I don't read ET stuff in that for non-Jews
In fact I;ve read the opposite. You just hve to believe that or not. I can't find the article.
On of the reasons for that is, that's hard to Google for hell related subject concerning Jews.
Imo that means hell is not on their mind. They warn to live a rightous life because God will deal with all tresspasses. But even in those articles they never mention Et hell.
Most certainly there are Jews that could qualify for hell (if it exited) for example one of their own kings (Jochaim IIRC) who burned a Torah scroll.

"How is one to receive a place in the World to Come? By performing Mitzvot, commandments, and keeping God's Torah. There are people in this world that deny the very existence of God and they believe that they have no need for the World to Come. However, such people manage to perform plenty of Mitzvot during their lives. This is so even if they did so without any of the correct intentions at all. God, then has to reward them for their actions with a form of "currency" that fits their lifestyle. One of the ways that God has for rewarding the wicked is to grant them long life and riches in this world. This means that at their Final Judgment, the Heavenly Tribunal can check its records and see that all merits and rewards were paid in the physical world."


It sounds like a ledger system.  You pay all your debts or ---what?   He says the wicked rich are rewarded in this life, so that they will already have been paid in full for any good deeds when it comes to tallying things up.   So, then what?  Anihilation?

It explains though why people think they can do unspeakably bad acts and pave them over with good deeds.  If it's just a ledger system, one side balances the other.  They hope.

[WhiteWings]

I was just posting it for you molly because I know you seem to adhere to some of his teachings, with the nachash being the shining one, the two powers etc.  This article just confirms what I've felt in reading some of his other writings, that he makes some missteps in his logic, and may not be as trusted a source as previously thought.  Just because someone has a degree, and has books, doesn't mean they actually know what they talk about. 

http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/discussions_universal_salvation/the_fall_man_8424.msg101596.html#msg101596

What do you think of that article?

It's far more scholary than the blog post.  It also aligns a bit with the view that the serpent was a "wizard" or like the witch of Edor.
I have to re-read the article. I just remembered I posted it a few years ago. It also refereneces to his book the Facade. (which I have, but not read yet. PM for info)
But now it's time for a few eps of Hi-Di-Hi  :thumbsup:

[WhiteWings]

well, I'm not promotiing the guy for any personal reasons.  I have just found his lectures fascinating, and thought RHM might enjoy them.

So if you want to reject him based on one chat, your loss not mine.

But I notice that you will not present me evidence that Jews believe all the Gentiles will be saved.

I gave you that in a previous post.
http://www.myjewishlearning.com/beliefs/Theology/Afterlife_and_Messiah/Life_After_Death/Heaven_and_Hell.shtml
http://www.asktherabbi.org/DisplayQuestion.asp?ID=390
http://www.faqs.org/faqs/judaism/FAQ/06-Jewish-Thought/section-9.html

Notice how they speak about souls instead of Jews.
And different rules for Jew and gentile.
I don't read ET stuff in that for non-Jews
In fact I;ve read the opposite. You just hve to believe that or not. I can't find the article.
On of the reasons for that is, that's hard to Google for hell related subject concerning Jews.
Imo that means hell is not on their mind. They warn to live a rightous life because God will deal with all tresspasses. But even in those articles they never mention Et hell.
Most certainly there are Jews that could qualify for hell (if it exited) for example one of their own kings (Jochaim IIRC) who burned a Torah scroll.

"How is one to receive a place in the World to Come? By performing Mitzvot, commandments, and keeping God's Torah. There are people in this world that deny the very existence of God and they believe that they have no need for the World to Come. However, such people manage to perform plenty of Mitzvot during their lives. This is so even if they did so without any of the correct intentions at all. God, then has to reward them for their actions with a form of "currency" that fits their lifestyle. One of the ways that God has for rewarding the wicked is to grant them long life and riches in this world. This means that at their Final Judgment, the Heavenly Tribunal can check its records and see that all merits and rewards were paid in the physical world."


It sounds like a ledger system.  You pay all your debts or ---what?   He says the wicked rich are rewarded in this life, so that they will already have been paid in full for any good deeds when it comes to tallying things up.   So, then what?  Anihilation?

It explains though why people think they can do unspeakably bad acts and pave them over with good deeds.  If it's just a ledger system, one side balances the other.  They hope.

Not unlike Christianity that teaches Jesus paved over all unspeakably bad acts.

[Molly]

Not unlike Christianity that teaches Jesus paved over all unspeakably bad acts.

Yes,   But, it's one thing for Jesus to do it, and another for a man to think he can do it for himself.

The whole point of Christianity is that man cannot do it for himself.   The debt is too great.

[Molly]

I wonder how they even figure out the balancing act?

Let's see, what good deed do I have to do for destroying the lives of a million people to make myself rich...

[thinktank]

Just tooling around on the ole internet and happened across someone saying that the word for eve chaya is very similar or the same as the aramaic root for serpent.

Can't find any good evidence, anyone else know anything about this?  Did see some more writing about it, but nothing solid.

What is your suspicion?

Do you think that Eve is similar to the serpent, subtil, seducing Adam to eat the fruit?

[redhotmagma]

Just tooling around on the ole internet and happened across someone saying that the word for eve chaya is very similar or the same as the aramaic root for serpent.

Can't find any good evidence, anyone else know anything about this?  Did see some more writing about it, but nothing solid.

What is your suspicion?

Do you think that Eve is similar to the serpent, subtil, seducing Adam to eat the fruit?

Well, its the whole soul=woman=carnal mind==>tokogae

Not that I even think they necessarily are the same but that they are maybe associated etymologically.  I wasn't searching for it, I just happened on it.  my exact search was
"mythology bible"

If serpent means to learn by experience(one definition), and that is our flesh nature/soul that we experience the outside world by then it wouldn't surprise me if there was some verbal linkage. 

[WhiteWings]

Not unlike Christianity that teaches Jesus paved over all unspeakably bad acts.

Yes,   But, it's one thing for Jesus to do it, and another for a man to think he can do it for himself.

The whole point of Christianity is that man cannot do it for himself.   The debt is too great.

True. But both religions think that God will forgive all sins. Either by following 613 rules or 1 bow before Jesus rule.

What is the Jewish view about the Messiah and their sin? Is the Messiah just a great teacher and warrior that destrys their enemies? Or does the Messiah also has the ability to wipe out their sins?