Tentmaker Forum

The word "eternity" is only used once in the entire Bible [ Isa. 57:15] Yet much is said of eternity in many disccusions, its lenght or its lengthlessness. Just what is eternity?
Isa 57:15 For thus says Yahweh, high and lifted up, who tabernacles the future, and holy is His name:"In the high and holy place am I tabernacling, and with the crushed and lowly spirit, to preserve alive the spirit of the lowly, and to preserve alive the heart of the crushed."(CLV)
Isa 57:15  For, thus, saith he that is high and lifted up—Inhabiting futurity, And, holy, is his name: A high and holy place, will I inhabit, Also with the crushed and lowly in spirit, To revive the spirit of the lowly, and To revive the heart of them who are crushed;— (Rotherham)
Isa 57:15  For thus said the high and exalted One, Inhabiting eternity, and holy is His name: `In the high and holy place I dwell, And with the bruised and humble of spirit, To revive the spirit of the humble, And to revive the heart of bruised ones,'
Isa 57:15  For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy: I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite. (ASV)

It is my thought as of late, that eternity is not what I thought it to be. I had always been taught that eternity was a realm of no time. Why?  I felt and read that God created time just for this creation.

Doesn't Paul call things temporary and "for the occasion."

Yes
2Co 4:18

(ASV)  while we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

(CLV) at our not noting what is being observed, but what is not being observed, for what is being observed is temporary, yet what is not being observed is eonian."

(KJV)  While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

(Rotherham)  So long as we are not looking out for the visible things, but for the invisible; for, the visible things, are temporary, whereas, the invisible, are age-abiding.

(RYLT-NT)  we not looking to the things seen, but to the things not seen; for the things seen are temporary, but the things not seen are age-during.

(WNT)  while we look not at things seen, but things unseen; for things seen are temporary, but things unseen are eternal.

(YLT)  we not looking to the things seen, but to the things not seen; for the things seen are temporary, but the things not seen are age-during.

Are we just at the beginning?  The ages are never going to end.

Ephesians 3:21
Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. [aion aion]  Amen.

Quote from: Molly on November 01, 2010, 01:11:28 PM
Are we just at the beginning?  The ages are never going to end.

Ephesians 3:21
Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. [aion aion]  Amen.

Understood. the question is about eternity, not ages.

Quote from: micah7:9 on November 01, 2010, 03:04:14 PM

Quote from: Molly on November 01, 2010, 01:11:28 PM
Are we just at the beginning?  The ages are never going to end.

Ephesians 3:21
Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. [aion aion]  Amen.

Understood. the question is about eternity, not ages.

You asked, what is eternity?  So I gave you my answer, neverending ages--world without end, ages in perpetuity.

"eternity" [Isa 57:15]
H5703
עד
‛ad
ad
From H5710; properly a (peremptory) terminus, that is, (by implication) duration, in the sense of perpetuity (substantially as a noun, either with or without a preposition): - eternity, ever (-lasting, -more), old, perpetually, + world without end.

Thank you.

Is there time in eternity?

Quote from: micah7:9 on November 01, 2010, 03:53:45 PM
Thank you.

Is there time in eternity?

Yes, within the ages, there is time--a beginning, a middle, and an end of the age.  Then on to the next--in perpetuity, where there is no time.

And we get to watch it all--as God's plan unfolds from one age to the next!

Psalm 90:2
Before the mountains were born Or You gave birth to the earth and the world, Even from everlasting to everlasting, You are God.

"from"
H4480
מנּי    מנּי    מן
min  minnı̂y  minnêy
min, min-nee', min-nay'
For H4482; properly a part of; hence (prepositionally), from or out of in many senses: - above, after, among, at, because of, by (reason of), from (among), in, X neither, X nor, (out) of, over, since, X then, through, X whether, with.


"everlasting"
H5769
עלם    עולם
‛ôlâm  ‛ôlâm
o-lawm', o-lawm'
From H5956; properly concealed, that is, the vanishing point; generally time out of mind (past or future), that is, (practically) eternity; frequentative adverbially (especially with prepositional prefix) always: - always (-s), ancient (time), any more, continuance, eternal, (for, [n-]) ever (-lasting, -more, of old), lasting, long (time), (of) old (time), perpetual, at any time, (beginning of the) world (+ without end). Compare H5331, H5703.


"to"

H5704
עד
‛ad
ad
Properly the same as H5703 (used as a preposition, adverb or conjugation; especially with a preposition); as far (or long, or much) as, whether of space (even unto) or time (during, while, until) or degree (equally with): - against, and, as, at, before, by (that), even (to), for (-asmuch as), [hither-] to, + how long, into, as long (much) as, (so) that, till, toward, until, when, while, (+ as) yet.

H5703
עד
‛ad
ad
From H5710; properly a (peremptory) terminus, that is, (by implication) duration, in the sense of perpetuity (substantially as a noun, either with or without a preposition): - eternity, ever (-lasting, -more), old, perpetually, + world without end.

"everlasting"
H5769
עלם    עולם
‛ôlâm  ‛ôlâm
o-lawm', o-lawm'
From H5956; properly concealed, that is, the vanishing point; generally time out of mind (past or future), that is, (practically) eternity; frequentative adverbially (especially with prepositional prefix) always: - always (-s), ancient (time), any more, continuance, eternal, (for, [n-]) ever (-lasting, -more, of old), lasting, long (time), (of) old (time), perpetual, at any time, (beginning of the) world (+ without end). Compare H5331, H5703.



eternally from eternity to eternity

Is that enough time for everyone?

Quote from: Molly on November 01, 2010, 04:15:39 PM

Quote from: micah7:9 on November 01, 2010, 03:53:45 PM
Thank you.

Is there time in eternity?

Yes, within the ages, there is time--a beginning, a middle, and an end of the age.  Then on to the next--in perpetuity, where there is no time.

And we get to watch it all--as God's plan unfolds from one age to the next!

How does it "unfold" without time? Its an unfolding a happening of tijme?

Ecclesiastes 3:11
He has made everything beautiful in its time. He has also set eternity in the human heart; yet no one can fathom what God has done from beginning to end.


"eternity"

H5769
עלם    עולם
‛ôlâm  ‛ôlâm
o-lawm', o-lawm'
From H5956; properly concealed, that is, the vanishing point; generally time out of mind (past or future), that is, (practically) eternity; frequentative adverbially (especially with prepositional prefix) always: - always (-s), ancient (time), any more, continuance, eternal, (for, [n-]) ever (-lasting, -more, of old), lasting, long (time), (of) old (time), perpetual, at any time, (beginning of the) world (+ without end). Compare H5331, H5703.


H5956
עלם
‛âlam
aw-lam'
A primitive root; to veil from sight, that is, conceal (literally or figuratively): -  X any ways, blind, dissembler, hide (self), secret (thing).



He uses time to blind man and conceal his plans.  This gives eternity a frame of reference that man can deal with--there's a big election tomorrow, for those who are watching it, it seems an eternity before we get the results.  So, the focus becomes the immediate--even if it is a 30 year plan, or 100 year plan, it is still the world as it is now that is the focus.

But, God's plan covers min olam ad olam, something that is so vast we cannot even conceive it.  He feeds us the eternities, the ages, in bite size pieces of time, until we are able to consume more...


26 the mystery that has been kept hidden for ages and generations, but is now disclosed to the saints.

--Col 1

willieH: Hi Molly...  :cloud9:

Quote from: Molly on November 01, 2010, 04:15:39 PM

Quote from: micah7:9 on November 01, 2010, 03:53:45 PM
Thank you.

Is there time in eternity?

Yes, within the ages, there is time--a beginning, a middle, and an end of the age.  Then on to the next--in perpetuity, where there is no time.

And we get to watch it all--as God's plan unfolds from one age to the next!

FIRST --- (no offense, Molly) but this statement is contradictory...  You say that AGES stretch into "perpetuity" in which "there is NO TIME"

How can there be NO TIME, when the AGES themselves (according to you) CONSIST of it?  :Chinscratch:

SECOND --- Another flaw in this observation (as I see it) is your indication of AGES having a BEGINNING...  If ETERNITY (according to you), is indeed composed of "AGES", and ALL "AGES" have a beginning (and end), then YHVH must needs have a BEGINNING as well... for HE inhabits ETERNITY, as Micah has noted in Isaiah 57:15

SO, according to you, and your observation of  Isaiah 57:15 --- His "habitation" constitutes having a BEGINNING (for each AGE according to you has a BEGINNING), then either YHVH preceeded the FIRST AGE (whenever that was), and was without a setting of "HABITATION" (which means without His OCCUPATION)...  How could GOD possibly BE, ...without a "setting" in which to ...BE, and therefore "INHABIT"?

in·hab·it verb \in-ˈha-bət\
Definition of INHABIT
transitive verb
1: to occupy as a place of settled residence or habitat : live in <inhabit a small house>
2: to be present in or occupy in any manner or form <the human beings who inhabit this tale — Al Newman>



in·hab·i·tant noun \in-ˈha-bə-tənt\
Definition of INHABITANT
: one that occupies a particular place regularly, routinely, or for a period of time <inhabitants of large cities> <the tapeworm is an inhabitant of the intestine>

As I see it... there is only one observation that can be made by MEN of GOD's -- "Habitation" -- that lies in TRUTH, ...and that is, that it exists BEYOND our view and present existence AS WELL AS our ability to OBSERVE, 

A "habitation" that is WITHOUT BEGINNING or END... 2 ASPECTS that both -- "TIME" and "AGES" -- contain... and which WE are amidst.  :dontknow:

willieH: Hi Molly...  :cloud9:

Quote from: Molly on November 01, 2010, 04:32:11 PM
Psalm 90:2
Before the mountains were born Or You gave birth to the earth and the world, Even from everlasting to everlasting, You are God.

"from"
H4480
מנּי    מנּי    מן
min  minnı̂y  minnêy
min, min-nee', min-nay'
For H4482; properly a part of; hence (prepositionally), from or out of in many senses: - above, after, among, at, because of, by (reason of), from (among), in, X neither, X nor, (out) of, over, since, X then, through, X whether, with.


"everlasting"
H5769
עלם    עולם
‛ôlâm  ‛ôlâm
o-lawm', o-lawm'
From H5956; properly concealed, that is, the vanishing point; generally time out of mind (past or future), that is, (practically) eternity; frequentative adverbially (especially with prepositional prefix) always: - always (-s), ancient (time), any more, continuance, eternal, (for, [n-]) ever (-lasting, -more, of old), lasting, long (time), (of) old (time), perpetual, at any time, (beginning of the) world (+ without end). Compare H5331, H5703.


"to"

H5704
עד
‛ad
ad
Properly the same as H5703 (used as a preposition, adverb or conjugation; especially with a preposition); as far (or long, or much) as, whether of space (even unto) or time (during, while, until) or degree (equally with): - against, and, as, at, before, by (that), even (to), for (-asmuch as), [hither-] to, + how long, into, as long (much) as, (so) that, till, toward, until, when, while, (+ as) yet.

H5703
עד
‛ad
ad
From H5710; properly a (peremptory) terminus, that is, (by implication) duration, in the sense of perpetuity (substantially as a noun, either with or without a preposition): - eternity, ever (-lasting, -more), old, perpetually, + world without end.

"everlasting"
H5769
עלם    עולם
‛ôlâm  ‛ôlâm
o-lawm', o-lawm'
From H5956; properly concealed, that is, the vanishing point; generally time out of mind (past or future), that is, (practically) eternity; frequentative adverbially (especially with prepositional prefix) always: - always (-s), ancient (time), any more, continuance, eternal, (for, [n-]) ever (-lasting, -more, of old), lasting, long (time), (of) old (time), perpetual, at any time, (beginning of the) world (+ without end). Compare H5331, H5703.



eternally from eternity to eternity

Is that enough time for everyone?

More contradictory words... How can ETERNITY (as you noted in a previous post) have "enough time" when you defined ETERNITY as a scenario which has -- NO "TIME"?

Quote from: MollyYes, within the ages, there is time--a beginning, a middle, and an end of the age.  Then on to the next--in perpetuity, where there is no time.

And we get to watch it all--as God's plan unfolds from one age to the next!

The words "from EVERLASTING" to "EVERLASTING" does not suggest "multiple" ..."everlastings"!  :mnah:

It suggests that EVERLASTING is the place from which TIME emerged, and to which it returns... the SAME "everlasting"... not "another" one...

If something is considered as "EVERLASTING", then it cannot have a point of "generation" or beginning, because that in itself defeats the words "EVER --- LASTING"...  :dontknow:

The point in which TIME began its "circlular journey"... ends in the  very same PLACE (where) it began -- in THE "EVERLASTING"... which awaited TIME (and the entire CONTENTS of TIME) to complete its journey...  :nod:

EVERLASTING is not the circle [time] (which WAS NOT existent before the journey BEGAN) the circle [time] emerged from EVERLASTING and returns to IT...   :winkgrin:

I once asked  God about 2 days ago about the concept of eternity and he said to me

"imagine a circle, the begining and end of it, completes one cycle"

So I said "So is there an end to eternity, do you go once around the circle, and then start over again?

"Imagine the circle expanding at a constant rate, so wherever you place a spot on that circle, there will allways be more in existence, so in effect there is no end to eternity, but yet there is a begining and an end, for I am the alpha and omega"

It's probably more complex than that, but I think that's a genius explanation from God  :bigGrin:

willieH: Hi Micah... :hithere:

Quote from: micah7:9 on November 01, 2010, 03:53:45 PM
Thank you.

Is there time in eternity?

In a word, ...NO... :mnah: 

TIME is a creation that is necessary in the depiction of the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL... for within the REVELATION OF IT, ...was TIME created... a LIVING "classroom" if you will...  :happygrin:

TIME is a scenario encased in MOVEMENT (which is in TURMOIL/MOTION, and which is NOT at PEACE)... 

CHRIST came amidst TIME and MADE PEACE (by the blood of His Cross) within it... prior to His entering into it (time), there was NO PEACE, for PEACE had not yet, been "MADE" -- Col 1:20

ALL things within TIME, decay, and is the TOOL of CORRUPTION for ALL CORRUPTION finds itself within TIME... CHRIST was resurrected before the CORRUPTING parameters of TIME, produced DECAY in His body -- Psalm 16:10 -- Acts 13:35 -- Acts 2:31

YHVH (who INHABITS ETERNITY) demands that we be STILL in order to KNOW (gain truthful understanding) that He is GOD -- Psalm 46:10 -- for only in STILLNESS can He be percieved in TRUTH...

In the JUDGMENT of YHVH  which brings forth RIGHTEOUSNESS -- Isaiah 26:9 -- is STILLNESS found -- Psalm 76:8 -- TIME is NEVER "STILL"... it is ALWAYS (during its existence), ...in MOTION.

Just like LOVE exceeds KNOWLEDGE -- Eph 3:19 -- so does ETERNITY exceed TIME...

The FULLNESS of GOD, completely exceeds the FINITE experience... :nod:

Thanks WillieH, that was great. Gives me more to look into.  :thumbsup:

very nice, WillieH. :thumbsup:

now I have to figure out what you just said. :happygrin:

I especially liked what you said about Christ--if I understood it.

Quote from: willieHTIME is a creation that is necessary in the depiction of the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL... for within the REVELATION OF IT, ...was TIME created... a LIVING "classroom" if you will... 

TIME is a scenario encased in MOVEMENT (which is in TURMOIL/MOTION, and which is NOT at PEACE)... 

This right here is really interesting.  It would explain why we are not given details of how long Adam was in the garden or how old when he left.  The time in the garden would be timeless?

But the thought  that time is a by product of them eating from the forbidden tree--that is profound.  Is this when he set olam in their hearts?  Now we have a time for everything, and there is nothing new under the sun--all is vanity.





1 There is a time for everything,
   and a season for every activity under the heavens:
2 a time to be born and a time to die,
   a time to plant and a time to uproot,
3 a time to kill and a time to heal,
   a time to tear down and a time to build,
4 a time to weep and a time to laugh,
   a time to mourn and a time to dance,
5 a time to scatter stones and a time to gather them,
   a time to embrace and a time to refrain from embracing,
6 a time to search and a time to give up,
   a time to keep and a time to throw away,
7 a time to tear and a time to mend,
   a time to be silent and a time to speak,
8 a time to love and a time to hate,
   a time for war and a time for peace.

9 What do workers gain from their toil? 10 I have seen the burden God has laid on the human race. 11 He has made everything beautiful in its time. He has also set eternity in the human heart; yet no one can fathom what God has done from beginning to end. 12 I know that there is nothing better for people than to be happy and to do good while they live. 13 That each of them may eat and drink, and find satisfaction in all their toil—this is the gift of God. 14 I know that everything God does will endure forever; nothing can be added to it and nothing taken from it. God does it so that people will fear him.

15 Whatever is has already been,
   and what will be has been before;
   and God will call the past to account.

16 And I saw something else under the sun:

   In the place of judgment—wickedness was there,
   in the place of justice—wickedness was there.

17 I said to myself,

   "God will bring into judgment
   both the righteous and the wicked,
for there will be a time for every activity,
   a time to judge every deed."

18 I also said to myself, "As for humans, God tests them so that they may see that they are like the animals. 19 Surely the fate of human beings is like that of the animals; the same fate awaits them both: As one dies, so dies the other. All have the same breath; humans have no advantage over animals. Everything is meaningless. 20 All go to the same place; all come from dust, and to dust all return. 21 Who knows if the human spirit rises upward and if the spirit of the animal goes down into the earth?"

22 So I saw that there is nothing better for a person than to enjoy their work, because that is their lot. For who can bring them to see what will happen after them?

--Ecc 3

Quote from: willieHMore contradictory words... How can ETERNITY (as you noted in a previous post) have "enough time" when you defined ETERNITY as a scenario which has -- NO "TIME"?

I was just looking at the words.  Olam, ad, age.  Eternity is 'timeless.'

If eternity does not include time, then it just is--I AM.

But, if you string pieces of time anywhere inside eternity--how did Vonnegut put it?--like bugs in amber?  --then you string them together and you can have a beginning, a middle, and an end--or a middle, a beginning, a middle,  and an end--however you choose--but you get a story and a history.

The word for eternity--


H5703
עד
‛ad
ad
From H5710; properly a (peremptory) terminus, that is, (by implication) duration, in the sense of perpetuity (substantially as a noun, either with or without a preposition): - eternity, ever (-lasting, -more), old, perpetually, + world without end.

and its root--

H5710
עדה
‛âdâh
aw-daw'
A primitive root; to advance, that is, pass on or continue; causatively to remove; specifically to bedeck (that is, bring an ornament upon): - adorn, deck (self), pass by, take away.


He is also the God of the ages, who is, and was, and will be.

The ages are the jewels of eternity?

Time is the jewel of timelessness?

Perhaps "eternity" doesn't have anything to do with time at all, but instead with a quality of existence beyond linear measurements entirely.

A sphere is like a circle, but of an entirely better, and loftier quality dimension-wise than the circle.

You can't compare a circle to a sphere, only so far as their shape from one perspective.  But if you turn a circle, and turn a sphere...they lose alot of their comparability.

So too, is Time, and Eternity like a circle, and sphere.  Comparable in one sense of shape, and one perspective, but entirely incomparable otherwise.

I was just going to ask isnt eternity mistranslated?  Shouldnt it be Isa 57:15  For, thus, saith he that is high and lifted up—Inhabiting futurity,? Then the whole idea of what man calls eternity would not enter in?

Quote from: thinktank on November 01, 2010, 09:20:08 PM"Imagine the circle expanding at a constant rate, so wherever you place a spot on that circle, there will allways be more in existence, so in effect there is no end to eternity, but yet there is a begining and an end, for I am the alpha and omega"

It's probably more complex than that, but I think that's a genius explanation from God  :bigGrin:

Actually there is NO BEGINNING concerning GOD or ETERNITY...

The ALPHA (beginning) and OMEGA (ending) represent GOD as being the BEGINNING (first cause) and ENDING (conclusion) of all things which HAVE beginnings and endings...

GOD Himself, and His WORD are known to be "after the order of Melchizidek"... WITHOUT beginning of days or end of life...  WITHOUT "geneology" (which presents BEGINNING), a designation of another PRIOR to oneself -- Heb 7:3

If EVERYTHING emerged from GOD (and it did)... then HE preceeded ALL of IT...  Because He preceeded, certainly does not designate that He -- (1) -- has THEIR characteristics or -- (2) -- is subject to the parameters that the "emergents" are subject to...  :dontknow:

(Try, if you will, ...to "tune in" on the following)...

GOD "inhabits" the PRAISE of His people -- Psalm 22:3 -- and PRAISE of Him has been going on FOREVER... For ALL of the SONS of GOD, have praised Him and were praising Him at the foundation of the WORLD (before TIME appeared) -- Job 38:6-7

And, ...IN HEAVEN (which is the ETERNAL setting) are "MUCH PEOPLE" (I believe this "much people" depicts ALL men which one by one (AS they are REVEALED by the WORD in this realm, and are traversing TIME) seen praising Him -- Rev 19:1-5  :boogie:

GLORY is praise... and it is FOREVER (always present) -- Rev 1:5 -- there ...IS... NEVER an instance or moment, in which YHVH is NOT PRAISED (for He is UNCHANGING), nor has there ever been, or ever "WILL BE"...

GOD is an UNCHANGING entity -- Mal 3:6 -- so anything He "INHABITS", ...He has ALWAYS "inhabited"...  :dontknow:

Furthermore, ...if GOD "inhabits" the PRAISES of His people, then those "people" (which are HIS), have ALWAYS BEEN His, and have ALWAYS BEEN, ...His "habitation"... 

That we cannot (in this life) recall this, is our SIN, actively separating us from the rememberance of that "praise".

wow.  Another great post, WillieH, --if only I could understand it. :winkgrin:


Furthermore, ...if GOD "inhabits" the PRAISES of His people, then those "people" (which are HIS), have ALWAYS BEEN His, and have ALWAYS BEEN, ...His "habitation"... 

Well micah, possibly.  But if the word for "eternity" is being translated from Olam, then I think what we are dealing with is not something that is a matter of futurity, but a quality of dimensional existence that on occasion includes time.

Hence my sphere example.

You see, most people want to attribute Eternity as endlessness without beginning or end, this is true in a sense, it is one of the aspects of something that is "Eternal", but they wrongly (or assumptively rather) still compare it almost as the antithesis or polar opposite of Temporality, of which is only a single part of what Olam really is (from my understanding).

Olam is the three dimensional sphere, and measurable time, even the endless 'no beginning or end' measurement (a measurement of infinity is still a measurement) is but a single part of it, it is only one dimension of Olam.

A sphere has width, height, volume, and also time (in the case of an existing thing in Reality, not just a theoretical polygon).

God if I can say so in my limited understanding, has a timeline also, his time is just different from ours because his time is measured in infinity, and is not bound to a linear continuum like ours.

God exists in point A, B, C, Blue, Zebra, and Haggledoogle, while we are always going from A, to B, to C, and cannot go back to A, or B, or C, all we have is the present, but God has endlessness and everytime.

That being said, there is much more to the sphere that is Olam/Eternity than mere time.  There is the quality of its other dimensions, and its consistency from every angle, and its never changing, but infinitely unique forever newly-manifesting beauty.

If you take a circle and you turn it around, you find that it is flat, a disc, and well..you can only look at the top, or the bottom, and it is inconsistent, changing, and odd.  Limited if you will.  It has only two dimensions, three if you could Time.

But the sphere, you can turn it around in every direction, and it will always be a sphere.  But the depth, and volume, and beauty of a sphere is infinite compared to the flat limited shape of a circle, even with or if time involved.

I suspect that what we need translation wise, is a word that isn't rooted in a concept of time, but is instead rooted in a concept of dimensional quality.

Quote from: Lefein on November 01, 2010, 10:37:58 PM
Perhaps "eternity" doesn't have anything to do with time at all, but instead with a quality of existence beyond linear measurements entirely.

I agree with this entirely.  :happygrin: 

Time is "kind of like eternity", in that it is shapen in "NOW", but in dimension, it is TWO dimensional... whereas a SPHERE is "circular" yet THREE dimensional in the same "NOW" moment...

The CIRCLE is round "this way" only, whereas...

The SPHERE is "round this way, and that"... :nod:

Quote from: Lefein on November 01, 2010, 10:37:58 PMA sphere is like a circle, but of an entirely better, and loftier quality dimension-wise than the circle.

Amen.  :thumbsup:  Great illustration!

A CIRCLE is shaped in the same way as a SPHERE, but is vastly LESS and LIMITED in almost every way as well as dissimilar to a SPHERE with the exception of its "shape".

Quote from: Lefein on November 01, 2010, 10:37:58 PMYou can't compare a circle to a sphere, only so far as their shape from one perspective.  But if you turn a circle, and turn a sphere...they lose alot of their comparability.

Agreed ! ...this is bordering upon, ...PHENOMENAL!  :mshock:  Let us mark down this date!  :laughing7:

Quote from: Lefein on November 01, 2010, 10:37:58 PMSo too, is Time, and Eternity like a circle, and sphere.  Comparable in one sense of shape, and one perspective, but entirely incomparable otherwise.

That "shape" being "NOW"...

Just completely well said Lefein...   :thumbsup:

I see this (as limited finite vision affords me), in exactly the same way...  :winkgrin:

Indeed WillieH, to use what scientists say about our universe, we can only see an observable part of it, that looks flat to us, but in reality it is this gargantuan expansion.

Olam/Eternity we can only barely see even a slice of the sphere, a flat condensed, limited circle of it, much like how when we look up into space, it seems endless - this flat slice of the Olamic Sphere seems endless too, and endless indeed it is, but it is much more than just the 2 dimensional circle (+time; infinite in measurement), it is a whole sphere with volume, depth, and incomprehensible measurements, and qualities.

Olam is not about time, rather than quality of an unobservable reality, of which time - from a millisecond to infinity to a day's stroll in the park is but a barely observable part.

You guys have been great. Thanks many times :bigGrin: :thumbsup:

Quote from: thinktank on November 01, 2010, 09:20:08 PM
I once asked  God about 2 days ago about the concept of eternity and he said to me

"imagine a circle, the begining and end of it, completes one cycle"

So I said "So is there an end to eternity, do you go once around the circle, and then start over again?

"Imagine the circle expanding at a constant rate, so wherever you place a spot on that circle, there will allways be more in existence, so in effect there is no end to eternity, but yet there is a begining and an end, for I am the alpha and omega"

It's probably more complex than that, but I think that's a genius explanation from God  :bigGrin:

:cloud9:  :thumbsup: Those "circles" are REVOLUTIONS, LIKE THE WHIRLWIND that Elijah went up in. Same word comes from Genesis, ie. generations.

There is no time in the Spirit, because there is no death in the Spirit. Time is the measurement of death, ie. something had to die to create time. And "something" did........the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. Blessings.....

"There is no time in the Spirit..."
" Time is the measurement of death." And where can I find this info?

 :cloud9: That's something the Lord spoke to me one day while I was reading the Word. He used the example of how our seasons change and we perceive time has passed because of the decay occuring from the changes, ie. same princilple as something has to die to create time. Otherwise, without death, we (and it) would live forever. Blessings....

Time does not stop

Time exists as long as there is space, and matter.  Decay might cease, but time does not.  Atleast in our conventional understanding of it.

Correct, God is I AM so time will nor cease!

Quote from: Lefein on November 03, 2010, 03:27:09 AM
Time exists as long as there is space, and matter.  Decay might cease, but time does not.  Atleast in our conventional understanding of it.

:cloud9: You missed the point. There is no time IN THE SPIRIT. Which is why He knows the end from the beginning. There is no space or matter to be concerned with, in the Spirit of God. These are things that were created, and created to display that which is limitless in nature. Blessings....

I think that the idea of timeless-existence (no time) came from the concept of Eternity (Olam/Aion) being time-based instead of quality based in which time is a but another facet, or pillar.

"God is Eternal" it is true in terms of time that God is endless, of course it is because God is already endless - but Eternal I think has a greater sort of essence to it; when someone says God is Eternal, they should really be thinking more along the lines of "God is not bound by the facade of our observable faculties --- God isn't a flat being, he is multi-dimensional" rather than "God is not bound by time".

Everlasting, For ever - translations of Aion and Olam even when regarding "Hell" like "Eternal Hellfire", well these describes not a situation of endless time, but of a circumstance that is beyond our ability to comprehend.

How many of us can comprehend Heaven?  Not even John in his Revelation could fully express the magnificence, even under the very breath of the Spirit, caught up in the spirit.  Aionion Chastisement is likewise, chastisement beyond our realm of comprehension -- of a quality, and a sort that we cannot express fully, rather than "it lasts forever".

Eternal, which comes from Olam and Aion I think...might be best described as "Incomprehensible", if that makes sense.

The Spirit must have time, if not the spirit is not, and that cant be true, for the Spirit DOES is action.

Omnipresence is existence in all moments, and omniscience is perception of all moments.  These moments do not bind God, but he does exist, and have perception in them.

The Spirit has time - all time.  But time does not have it, for he made time as we notice it.  I think that the nature of The Spirit and Time is something that we'd need to study though...It is probably (like all things with God's nature) a bit complicated...

Perhaps it is a part of his "I AM"

He has always existed, and therefore has all the time in the world, and beyond.

I AM, is time... and as long as I Am IS, there is time.

Unless you can explain the difference between these literally rendered Scripture phrases:  1.) "the age of the age," 2.) "the age of the ages," and, 3.) "the ages of the ages," you do not know what "eternity" means!  I can assure you, the Holy Spirit is not guilty of a slip of the pen.  "Oops, I missed a letter!"  Not!

Lack of experience and knowledge cannot be remedied if you're taught to be deaf and blind.  God sees and hears everything.  He's not deceived or defiled. To be like Him is the Image of your destiny.  The spirit of deception is identified by an inability to listen, specifically to talk about God by those of God.  (conf., 1 Jn 4.5-6)  Don't think whatever the label "orthodoxy" is trumpeted before by bought religious elite who give titles of honor to one another must therefore be true.  What it really is (now think about this) is the popular consensus at any given time among Institutionally owned professionals who believe they should have the microphone.

To illustrate the inconsistency of the translators, in the following passages the Greek word translated with "eternity" in English is consistently so translated.  Consider how illogical the Holy Spirit would appear saying,

"which God, who does not lie promised before the beginning of eternity (literally:  before times aeonian)" (Tit 1:2);

"according to the revelation of the mystery hidden for eternity past (literally:  in times aeonian)" (Rom 16:25);

"we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the eternities (literally:  before the eons) unto our glory:  which none of the princes of this eternity (literally:  this aeon) knew..."(1 Cor 2:7-8) this says there is before at least two or more in the past;

"who gave Himself for our sins to rescue us from the present evil eternity (literally:  this present wicked aeon)" (Gal 1:4);

"who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming eternity (literally:  impending aeon)" (Heb.6:5.)

"that in the eternities to come (literally:  aeons to come) he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus;" (Eph 2:7) this says there are two or more in the future;

"the harvest is the end of this eternity (literally:  conclusion of the aeon)" (Matt 13:39);

"now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the eternities (literally:  the ends of the aeons) are come;" (1Cor 10:11) this says they all end!

If I'm deceived it's the fault of Scripture itself. Consistent rendering not only works, it's to be preferred, though it has little to do with settling the larger question.  Most people only think it does because they're ignorant of what is or is not written in Holy Scripture.  Never the less, for those who consider Scripture to be the authority for faith and practice this information should be decisive.  Those who don't bother reading it will give an explanation why in that great day.  Those who do read it but refuse to bow their proud necks will have more to answer for.

 :thumbsup:

 :cloud9: One of the things that makes this site different from so many others, is that it is inhabited by people who have, by virtue of being here in the first place, decided to lay down everything they were taught by man in Babylon, and seek GOD for answers. So it should not come as a surprise or an affront to anyone, if they see things on here they've never heard of. Eye has not seen and EAR HAS NOT HEARD, the things that God has reserved for those that love Him. My  :2c: Blessings....

I see things differently. I think that time does exist, but in the spirit God is not bound by time, so he can in effect be here or there, the alpha and Omega before Abraham was I am, he can be anywhere at anytime. But we as people exist on a time scale that unveils and this time scale is eternal, never runs out. For through time here are somethings having been accomplished.

The birth of the word, the first born creature (If the word is the first, then does that mean time existed at his conception? For before that it was just Father all by himself), The creation of the angels, universe. Creation of Earth all creatures and mankind. The fall of man, the unveiling of the plan of God through the age. Bringing Jesus on the scene

If time does not exist then how can things be after death. e.g If I as a spirit die, and there is no time I could in effect be back at the begining of creation, where death still reigns.

But as micah also said Jesus said I am so he in effect maybe he's saying yes I can go here or there but right now I am, with you now in this present moment of existence, in this present Time.

What do you think? For without time how can things be birthed, seed time and harvest etc.

Time is a creation of God's, and as such why should it also not be redeemed for its purpose?  To perpetuate motion, instead of decay as it does now in the fallen state.

As for God, a metaphor to describe his omnipresence/science?

"God is the film editor, we watch it play."

Old film strips used to be edited frame by frame if I am thinking correctly, but when you press play it works very much like our linear, unfolding timeline.

Of course, just because God is the film editor, doesn't mean he doesn't watch the film either. :)

God Will be all in all and all things will be swallowed up of Him. Yea, are already. It is finished.

He is limitless and thus can not be measured — where would one start? — where would one finish?

Our perceptions do not always reflect what is going on outside of our limited understanding, that's the purpose of faith.

In time :bigGrin:

So if time did not exist does that mean I could spend an eternity with Jesus in his peace, without having to worry about turning the electricity off?

What would happen around me, let's say I spend a millon years doing nothing but enjoying the presence of Jesus, does that mean if I decide to do something else, I walk outside that nothing has happened, that the other beings in heaven angel and human would be exactly the same? Not even wearing different clothes? But if that's the case doesnt that mean that time in fact did not take place, that time was still or stopped? But if they did wear different clothes, doesn't that mean that time passed?

In my limited knowledge it seems to be that only God the father exists outside of time and possibly the word Jesus, but everyone else is subject to time or unfoldment of time, as Gods plan unfolds.
:2c:

Quote from: micah7:9 on November 03, 2010, 05:24:23 AM
I AM, is time... and as long as I Am IS, there is time.

Actually... TIME is "NOW" in motion. (something in MOTION is not at PEACE/STILL)...

God notes in the OT -- Psalm 46:10 -- that one must be STILL (PEACE), and in that "STILLNESS" -- KNOW that He is GOD... 

Man cannot entirely separate Himself from the decaying "movement" of TIME, but He can separate Himself from its "doings", by separating himself from those "doings"... which is WHY CHRIST removed into the wilderness and, into the Garden, ...to pray (away from the city and the corruptible "DOINGS" of MEN, into a setting which GOD made without the presence of MAN, ...and which is perpetuallly of HIM and His "doings")

Quote from: willieH on November 03, 2010, 08:34:56 PM

Quote from: micah7:9 on November 03, 2010, 05:24:23 AM
I AM, is time... and as long as I Am IS, there is time.

Actually... TIME is "NOW" in motion. (something in MOTION is not at PEACE/STILL)...

God notes in the OT -- Psalm 46:10 -- that one must be STILL (PEACE), and in that "STILLNESS" -- KNOW that He is GOD... 

Man cannot entirely separate Himself from the decaying "movement" of TIME, but He can separate Himself from its "doings", by separating himself from those "doings"... which is WHY CHRIST removed into the wilderness and, into the Garden, ...to pray (away from the city and the corruptible "DOINGS" of MEN, into a setting which GOD made without the presence of MAN, ...and which is perpetuallly of HIM and His "doings")

...willieH  :happygrin:

Understood,  yet time was still there in the garden and in the wilderness, perhaps " silent" but there.

Perhaps for us but not for Jesus.
For, if He did not lay His Life down, He would still be walking in those same sandals.
And! Those sandals would never wear out!
He knew no bounds that He chose not to know.

Yet He did it in time. Time Is.

I disagree.

He did "it" in our observation and understanding but nothing He did/does in one dimensional!

Quote from: thinktank on November 03, 2010, 07:53:03 PM
In my limited knowledge it seems to be that only God the father exists outside of time and possibly the word Jesus, but everyone else is subject to time or unfoldment of time, as Gods plan unfolds.
:2c:

:cloud9: Since God is Spirit, and there is no death in His Spirit, then no time in His Spirit, because time is the measurement of death. Willie's right in what He said about it being the "NOW" unfolding, as in His perfect will and counsel being established in the creation.

More food for thought. I've shared this before, but I was praying at bible study and He showed me a vision of brilliant light
going from my left to my right, really fast at the beginnning. As it neared a "midpoint" it keep getting slower and slower, and darker and darker, until it was totally black darkness. It then began to "speed up" again from that midpoint, gradually growing lighter and faster until it was total bright light again. Just then He spoke to me, "You have just witnessed creation."

I was stunned, and it came with the understanding that Spirit slowed down ("died" if you will, ie. lowered and slain from the foundationof the world) to form that which is a lesser glory, yet it is still a glory. This also explains why He said He dwells in the thick darkness. It also explains why it says He QUICKENS (means to speed up) our mortal bodies, and why we are returning to where we, as spirit, are returning TO. My  :2c: Blessings....

Quote from: micah7:9 on November 03, 2010, 09:08:22 PM

Quote from: willieH on November 03, 2010, 08:34:56 PM

Quote from: micah7:9 on November 03, 2010, 05:24:23 AM
I AM, is time... and as long as I Am IS, there is time.

Actually... TIME is "NOW" in motion. (something in MOTION is not at PEACE/STILL)...

God notes in the OT -- Psalm 46:10 -- that one must be STILL (PEACE), and in that "STILLNESS" -- KNOW that He is GOD... 

Man cannot entirely separate Himself from the decaying "movement" of TIME, but He can separate Himself from its "doings", by separating himself from those "doings"... which is WHY CHRIST removed into the wilderness and, into the Garden, ...to pray (away from the city and the corruptible "DOINGS" of MEN, into a setting which GOD made without the presence of MAN, ...and which is perpetuallly of HIM and His "doings")

...willieH  :happygrin:

Understood,  yet time was still there in the garden and in the wilderness, perhaps " silent" but there.

My  :2c:

Before it was "created", ..."TIME" was a non-existent (or better yet) UNREVEALED entity --  :dontknow:  As well, because TIME had a BEGINNING, means that TIME by the negation of " having a BEGINNING", ...is NOT an ETERNAL entity...

"NOW" is the ETERNAL entity... which has been set IN MOTION by the creation of TIME... and in which ALL, DECAY, EVIL, SIN and DEATH, ...are manifest and found... :nod:

That we (being IN time) do not and cannot percieve of "NOW"  ...without the association of "TIME" is a matter of INOBJECTIVITY, ...inobjective because we are AMIDST and MEMBERS of, ...TIME... (which is "now" within turmoil)

Being separated by our SIN from the perception of "NOW" ...which IS STILL ("now" at PEACE), and is NOT in MOTION nor the TOOL of DECAY that TIME, ...which utilizes the characteristic of "NOW", ...IS...

:Peace: bro...

 :cloud9: I can totally see that, and the "unrevealed part" really struck me, as it ties in with what I shared yesterday about the soul/wife being hidden. Awesome post.  :thumbsup:

When was time created?
And if there was no time before...  then how come we read "Gen 1:2  And the earth was.." there had to be time for the "was" to have been no?

Do things happen out side of time? And if that be true then when time is no more then nothing will get done or go further right?
Isa 57:15 For thus says Yahweh, high and lifted up, who tabernacles the future,(CVL)
Isa 57:15  For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity

Time is a dimension. 

1 dimension = a line, 2 dimensions = a square, 3 dimensions = a cube, 4 dimensions = an animated cube.

The dimensions are a part of Creation, that being said, God's omnipresence is also omnidimensional.  He exists in all facets of dimensionality, as well as outside of all conceivable dimensions (Olam).

It might even be legitimately said that God is a dimension all to himself as a part of his nature, of which has its own animation.

If lines, shapes, and volumetric things exist, and consist by God, so too does the animation of their physics depend on his empowerment?

Eternity H5703  From H5710; properly a (peremptory) terminus, that is, (by implication) duration, in the sense of perpetuity (substantially as a noun, either with or without a preposition): - eternity, ever (-lasting, -more), old, perpetually, + world without end.
H5710  A primitive root; to advance, that is, pass on or continue; causatively to remove; specifically to bedeck (that is, bring an ornament upon): - adorn, deck (self), pass by, take away.

I believe if something is happening, then there is Time.

Quote from: micah7:9 on November 03, 2010, 10:56:38 PM
Eternity H5703  From H5710; properly a (peremptory) terminus, that is, (by implication) duration, in the sense of perpetuity (substantially as a noun, either with or without a preposition): - eternity, ever (-lasting, -more), old, perpetually, + world without end.
H5710  A primitive root; to advance, that is, pass on or continue; causatively to remove; specifically to bedeck (that is, bring an ornament upon): - adorn, deck (self), pass by, take away.

I believe if something is happening, then there is Time.

Yes I beleive this to, that only GOD the Father is outside of creation. That we are not God, therefore we are not outside of time or unfoldment. Perhaps our PERCEPTION of time is different, especially in the spirit world, for 1 day is as a thousands years and a thousand to 1 day to the lord, but the fact that God perceives time Here shows us something, why should we believe that we can outdo God and be outside of time.

:2c:

I had always thought that time was a tool created by God just for us now, here for us mankind. That when He closes the book and all men and all His creation have returned to Him, then there will be no more need for time. Ive changed my mind, I agree Thinktank our perception of time I believe is blurred. I believe that God, The Father, Jehovah IS, and if that is so, then "things" are still going to happen, unfold  for eternity is the future, advancing so there is time.

We know not yet what we shall be, but we know that when He appears we shall be like Him, for we will see Him as He is...

1Co 13:12  For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

Was there time before Adam "ate and died"? Of course there was, because the Word defines the creation as a process of "days". The only reason I make that point is because some people try to define time in terms of death and see all that is finite as a result of death, and the eternal as a result of redemption, re-connection to the infinite God,... but I like the idea that the finite is the result of creation. Before God created, there was only God outside time, eternal.  Once He created, were there finite divisions of Himself? Was Adam, "eternal" before he died? Or will our eventual reunion with Him in the "all in all" be a revelation of an indivisible union with eternity/infinity in YHWH? Do we become infinite? Or are we as many finite parts of that which is infinite? Or is anything that is part of the infinite, itself infinite? Wow, mind boggling stuff to consider :o), and I don't have the answer, but I can't wait to find out !

The words eternal and eternity( futurity) are used much in our Bible vocabulary, but what does the
Bible say about eternity? I cant find much but Isa.57:15 I feel that as long as "something" is happening then there is time.
I read here on this forum that time was created, I used to say that, but now I find no evidence of such. Am I in error?
If "things" continue to be, then there must be time. And yes I can second this,"Wow, mind boggling stuff to consider :o), and I don't have the answer, but I can't wait to find out !" :bigGrin:

Hi Micah7:9
The hypothesis that as long as there are things there must be time may or may not be true. I kno the hypothesis that eternity is not endless time, but rather a time transcendent state of being is commonly held, and also may or may not  be true.   I wonder if it is knowable, since we know not yet what we shall be- the whole "seen through a glass darkly" thing. I kno that some people think time is the result of death, but IMO time is the result of creation, since creation occured "In the beginning" and as a process of "days". Previous to creation, as I see it, God was alone in eternity.

But I wonder about the end of the ages when all things are summed up in Christ and He returns all things to the Father, having put down all rule power and authority, so that God will be all in all. Isn't time, which is expressed in the words ;"chronos", "kairos", "genea", "aion/aionios" and "kosmos"; a form of rule, power and authority?
If we are pieces of the infinite, are we finite? When we know "as we are known" will we share infinity/eternity as a state of being, partaking in the divine nature in the "all in all"? When we know as we are known, what will be the state of our "being" and "doing".

Also, I am not sure, having done a thorough examination in the Greek and Hebrew, that eternity equates to futurity. In the KJV OT etrnal is "qedem" once and "olam" once and "ad" once. Everlasting occurs 65 times and is "olam" evry time. In the NASB everlasting is "olam" 110 times. But "olam" occurs 413 times and is translated as different words such as "of old", "always", "perpetual" and more.

I think eternal equates more to "I am that I am"(yhwh-the self-existent one; the eternal one-Strongs From h1933 be; breathe h1961 exist) and "was and is and is to come"- the state of being of God related to time may become ours as well when we become whatever we will be.

This verse intrigues me.
"The LORD(YHWH) shall reign forever(olam) and ever(ad)." olam means- unseen/unknown/other-world/beyond the horizon  ad means- terminus
(Exo 15:18)

"beyond the unseen end" or to the end of the unknown maybe

I agree that from our present perspective, as long as there are things and actions it seems there must be time as a record and process of the sequence of events- I am just not sure that our present perspective is sufficient to peer over the edge into what will actually be :o)

Micah, can you imagine time traveling in three dimensions?

1 Timothy 1:4

Quote from: Beloved Servant on November 04, 2010, 04:41:59 PM

Micah, can you imagine time traveling in three dimensions?

1 Timothy 1:4

I said nothing about time traveling and I know nothing of time traveling, thats all I can about that.

Quote
This verse intrigues me.
"The LORD(YHWH) shall reign forever(olam) and ever(ad)." olam means- unseen/unknown/other-world/beyond the horizon  ad means- terminus
(Exo 15:18)

"beyond the unseen end" or to the end of the unknown maybe

Beyond the end of the horizon?

 :cloud9: @ Eaglesway......

Exo. 15:18 The LORD(YHWH) shall reign forever(olam) and ever(ad).  olam means- unseen/unknown/other-world/beyond the horizon  ad means- terminus

Olam comes from a root meaning to conceal or hide, Ad comes from a root that means to glory, and is used as "to deck" with ornaments. The word for "ornaments" means something that goes on the head, like a turban, ie. to shew His glory openly. He reigns over the hidden and the openly seen, He dwells in thick darkness (hidden). My  :2c: Blessings....

Quote from: MicahI read here on this forum that time was created, I used to say that, but now I find no evidence of such. Am I in error?

Not sure what that means, but time is not a constant--as you approach the speed of light, time slows down...

Time is relative to a frame of reference.

But continous, does not stop.

Remember friends, time doesn't just mean the motion of decay, it also means the motion of growth.  You can't have a harvest without harvest time.

Quote from: micah7:9 on November 04, 2010, 07:40:43 PM
But continous, does not stop.

Does time stop at the speed of light? :dontknow:

The standard equation for "time dilation" is that the time passing on Earth will equal the time on the object * 1/sqrt(1-((v*v)/(c*c))), where v is the velocity of the object and c is the speed of light. At v=c this goes to infinity, or in other words, time would stop for an object moving at the speed of light. This is not a problem because objects can't go at the speed of light -- it would take an infinite amount of energy (and their mass would also become infinite).

http://helios.gsfc.nasa.gov/qa_gp_sl.html#time

Dr. Eric Christian

Quote from: Molly on November 04, 2010, 08:06:39 PM

Quote from: micah7:9 on November 04, 2010, 07:40:43 PM
But continous, does not stop.

Does time stop at the speed of light? :dontknow:

The standard equation for "time dilation" is that the time passing on Earth will equal the time on the object * 1/sqrt(1-((v*v)/(c*c))), where v is the velocity of the object and c is the speed of light. At v=c this goes to infinity, or in other words, time would stop for an object moving at the speed of light. This is not a problem because objects can't go at the speed of light -- it would take an infinite amount of energy (and their mass would also become infinite).

http://helios.gsfc.nasa.gov/qa_gp_sl.html#time

Dr. Eric Christian

:cloud9:  :thumbsup: Which is exactly what He showed me in the vision of light speeding up and then slowing down becoming darkness, and then speeding up again, if you understand that the "darkness", or that which is formed from the light, is under time and therefore subjected to death. Blessings....

Your saying as far as your vision is concerned time and darkness dies, stops and is no more at a certain place?

When might that be?

For yourselves know perfectly that The Day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

Quote from: Beloved Servant on November 04, 2010, 09:21:24 PM


For yourselves know perfectly that The Day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

And then time stops?

To me no time means time stops. IF there is no time then there is nothing in existence, nothing happening, except God existing in peacefull tranquility.

If there is no time, then everything happens at the exact same time. Im typing this while at the exact same time, Jesus is returning to earth, while at the same time he is being born by the virgin Mary, while also preaching at Gethsame. Is that what you guys are saying that everything has already happened in another dimension and we switch back and forth to each dimension, so it seems as if time is passing.  :dontknow:

Quote from: micah7:9 on November 04, 2010, 08:27:18 PM
Your saying as far as your vision is concerned time and darkness dies, stops and is no more at a certain place?

When might that be?

At the speed of light.  On the seventh day.


After six days Jesus took with him Peter, James and John the brother of James, and led them up a high mountain by themselves. 2 There he was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as the light. 3 Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with Jesus.

--Mat 17

willieH: Hi EW... :hithere:

As always your posts are entertaining and thought provoking... as well as naming as possibilities --- those things (at present) you consider and admit you do not "know" (convinced one way or the other),  ...which is a commendable exercise in honesty!  :thumbsup:

Quote from: eaglesway on November 04, 2010, 04:51:51 AM
We know not yet what we shall be, but we know that when He appears we shall be like Him, for we will see Him as He is...

1Co 13:12  For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

These statements are pretty clear to me... and as I see it... to "KNOW" as we are "KNOWN" is in --- COMPLETENESS --- which is the definition of the word PERFECT...  Something PERFECT is not in need of any change or modification, for it is in a state which if altered, can no longer be considered COMPLETE... it cannot have anything "taken away" for it becomes LESS than PERFECT and it cannot be "added" to because something which is COMPLETE cannot be improved or enhanced.

When the cup is FULL adding to it is futile for it's capacity is met... when the cup is EMPTIED in even the slightest increment, it is no longer FULL.

Quote from: eaglesway on November 04, 2010, 04:51:51 AM
Was there time before Adam "ate and died"? Of course there was, because the Word defines the creation as a process of "days".

The following is quite a mouthful (apologies ahead of "time"), hope you will bear with me, as the subject of ETERNITY is not a "brief" proposition   :laughing7:

FIRST --- As I see it, there is assumption here... "was there a TIME" before Adam?  NO... there was NOW.  NOW is not TIME, ...NOW is existence.  TIME is a quantity of measurement.  Actually, when it comes down to it... ONLY "NOW" truly EXISTS... for the quantities of "TIME" which are considered PAST are INACCESSIBLE for they no longer are "NOW"... and the quantities of "TIME" which are considered FUTURE are AS INACCESSIBLE, for they are YET ot be "NOW"... the FUTURE, as soon as "NOW" arrives IN IT... decomposes to being the PAST...

SECOND --- the "process of DAYS"... begins with the FIRST DAY... and IN that designation (1st), is noted that there were NO "DAYS" before it, otherwise it is UNTRUTHFUL to name it the FIRST DAY... also, the Scripture notes (in several places -- John 6:44 -- John 6:39) that there shall be a "LAST DAY"... again, ...IN that designation (last) is noted that there shall be NO DAYS which follow it... otherwise it is also UNTRUTHFUL to name it the "LAST DAY", when other "days" shall follow it.

THIRD --- and certainly NOT LEAST in the considerations of "DAYS" ...there is also to be considered the "DAY of YHVH"... (which is the SABBATH), and the "DAY" (which I believe to be the SABBATH)... in which ALL GENERATIONS appear -- Gen 2:4

Though it may be argued by some, ...as I see it, the SABBATH is clearly paralleled with JESUS CHRIST... and the designations of "SABBATH" and "DAY" concerning Him, ... is the ETERNAL enlightenment of the REVELATION of Him, which contains the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL... There is NO DARKNESS in the knowledge of EVIL, for it is KNOWLEDGE which enlightens the KNOWER of GOOD... and identifies it by its (eternally) existent (albeit, sorrow filled) information.

It is LIGHT to KNOW this information, for it's source is YHVH in which there is NO "DARKNESS" (unenlightenment)... so as I see it, YHVH Himself and the WORD which proceeds from Him, are the "DAY" in which ALL Generations appear, as well as the "DAY" He has called His own -- Isaiah 58:13 -- as did the Son note Himself as Lord of it -- Matt 12:8 -- Mark 2:28

The SABBATH... is that in which REST is COMPLETE in the REVELATION of the PERFECT KNOWLEDGE of YHVH which He has shared with ALL... thereby being ALL in ALL...

Another interesting aspect to consider is that the SABBATH has no "beginning or ending" characteristics, for NO "evening or morning" is noted about it, neither is a creation aspect attributed to it, for "IN SIX DAYS, God CREATED the heavens and the earth" -- Ex 20:11 -- not in SEVEN.

Quote from: eaglesway on November 04, 2010, 04:51:51 AMThe only reason I make that point is because some people try to define time in terms of death and see all that is finite as a result of death, and the eternal as a result of redemption, re-connection to the infinite God,... but I like the idea that the finite is the result of creation. Before God created, there was only God outside time, eternal.

I differ a bit with this bro, ...for ALL the SONS of GOD were present, in and at the founding moments of Creation (which in part contained the progression of TIME) -- Job 38:7 -- these observers which SHOUTED, had to EXIST in order to "SHOUT".  :dontknow:

The Creation is the REVEALING of things within the WORD of YHVH, which were withheld by Him... The REVELATION is the resulting manifestation (in LIVING terms) of contained information within YHVH, which in the ETERNAL setting, had NOT found expression by YHVH.  THIS (time and all contained in it) is that LIVING "expression"... which has both the boundaries of BEGINNING and END...

Each of those parameters which define and confine this "expression" (first DAY, last DAY), are found IN the WORD as well -- Rev 1:8 -- even though the WORD itself has neither, the KNOWLEDGE expressed BY and OF the WORD concerning the identifying aspects of Good and Evil, ...DOES!

Quote from: eaglesway on November 04, 2010, 04:51:51 AMOnce He created, were there finite divisions of Himself? Was Adam, "eternal" before he died? Or will our eventual reunion with Him in the "all in all" be a revelation of an indivisible union with eternity/infinity in YHWH?

The Creation (again, as I see it), was not YHVH bringing into being something from nothing.  It was Him EXPRESSING the knowledge within Himself... by REVEALING it in LIVING terms.  That He noted ALL before ANY of it occured, meant that it was ALREADY existent IN HIM -- Acts 17:28 --

The Creation (as I see it), is not something that "came into being"... it was something that ALWAYS existed IN the heart of YHVH, ...and was UNREVEALED to the existent beings which share ETERNITY (because of YHVH's existance) with YHVH. 

Anything emergent of YHVH (infinite source) cannot be other than infinite, for said things are emergent of the infinite. 

EXAMPLE --- If one takes a container and dips it into a POT of molten metal (YHVH)... the container shall still contain molten metal.  The contents (MAN) of the (smaller) container will not have ANY characteristics which are not present in the contents of the POT.

The doings of the knowledge of GOOD and EVIL in time, are FOREVER KNOWN by all which observed the events of TIME, or partook of them within TIME...

Quote from: eaglesway on November 04, 2010, 04:51:51 AMDo we become infinite?

I do not think so... I believe the opposite is true... we "became", by the expression of YHVH, finite by His insertion of us into a finite scenario (time).   I believe we have ALWAYS BEEN... and that -- Job 38:7 and Luke 15:11-32 -- testify of the fact that we as "SONS" were with the Father, ...left Him into a FAR COUNTRY (time), and then RETURNED to where we were... ALL of this is amidst ETERNITY, which existed prior, during and after TIME ran its course.

As I see it, ...In the parable of the "LOST Son" it is significant to note that the SON suggested to YHVH that he be given HIS portion (and YHVH complied) -- Luke 15:12 -- Elsewhere in the WORD of TRUTH, the Scriptures clearly note, that NO ONE "advises" GOD -- Isaiah 40:13 -- Eph 1:11  -- and GOD does NOT comply with that which has emerged from Him, ...that which emerges from Him, is that which "complies" with HIM.

That it appears that YHVH submitted to his "son's" request, does not mean that the request originated from the son.  For the SON as an emergent from YHVH, included the request as part of his existence, which IS ordered by YHVH in its totality. 

Which in turn means, that the "suggestion" which proceeded from the "LOST SON", had to have come from YHVH's inspiration of him... and was PURPOSED by the time of the conclusion of that "suggestion" (he going into the "far country"/time, wasting himself and his giftings)...  to enlighten BOTH SONS, of individual things they BOTH needed to learn. (the elder son was also corrected of his jealousies, by the enlightenment of the LOVE of YHVH, which he in part being inhibited by those "jealousies" ...was "devoid" of -- Luke 15:28-32

Though many shall likely object to this thinking, ...ALL are destined to "comply" forever with the WILL of YHVH in the ETERNAL, ...FOREVER... so get used to it...  :winkgrin:

Quote from: eaglesway on November 04, 2010, 04:51:51 AMOr are we as many finite parts of that which is infinite? Or is anything that is part of the infinite, itself infinite? Wow, mind boggling stuff to consider :o), and I don't have the answer, but I can't wait to find out !

More great ponderings bro... I think that I have already given my view of these last questions, above...  :thumbsup:

:Peace:

Quote from: micah7:9 on November 04, 2010, 09:42:29 PM

Quote from: Beloved Servant on November 04, 2010, 09:21:24 PM


For yourselves know perfectly that The Day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

And then time stops?

EYE HAS NOT SEEN, NOR EAR HEARD, NOR HAVE ENTERED INTO THE HEART OF MAN THE THINGS WHICH GOD HAS PREPARED FOR THOSE WHO LOVE HIM.
1 CORINTHIANS 2:9

 :cloud9: @ Willie  :thumbsup:

Has time stopped here?
Psa 102:27  But, thou, art, the same,—And, thy years, shall have no end:
Or here?

Isa 9:7  Of the increase of dominion, and of prosperity, There shall be no end—Upon the throne of David and Upon his kingdom, By establishing it and By sustaining it, With justice and With righteousness,—From henceforth, Even unto times age-abiding: The jealousy of Yahweh of hosts, will perform this!
Or here?

Luk 1:33  And he shall reign over the house of Jacob, unto the ages, and, of his kingdom, there shall be, no end.

Hi Willie,

I thoroughly read your post. Lots of interesting stuff. Some of which I agree with, some I don't, some I am not sure yet - as usual :o)

I am quite certain that time definitely actually exists. Time is a substantial part of this present reality/revelation, according to the scriptures. I thoroughly reject reducing the scriptures to arguments in semantics. Yet, I am also quite certain that time is being progressively swallowed up by the NOW- which is also the "I AM THAT I AM" and the "WAS, IS, WILL BE "of YHWH. The Now/I AM/YHWH will become "All in All"- eventually. At least in so far as the scriptures are concerned, we do not yet see all things subject unto Him. Only after all things become subject/summed up in Christ will God be "all in all"(IMO). Until then at least, time is. He has made it so.

The idea that something is perfect, does not, in my mind, eliminate that it can grow/expand/etc. In fact, such continuing growth is, IMO, a chief element of perfection and a big part of the promise of eternity. Logic arguments are affected by the parameters of our perspective/paradigm and are not always as complete as we think they are.

I understand the teaching that we existed in an ever-present eternal way with God before the foundation of the world,- I am not convinced, but I am not closed to the idea nor is it new to me. I think some of the things you express represent a theoretical understanding which may or may not be fully correct/real, but as usual, I am open to the Holy Spirit for further enlightenment.

Also, Some of my questions are asked for the purpose of provoking thought, not necessarily because I am seeking an in depth theological presentation concerning them, (as you said, eternity and time are big subjects) but I am grateful for your presentation, there are many good thoughts included in it.  It is just that I prefer to present Possibilities concerning some things, lest I should commit the error of declaring my Possibilities or even Probabilities to others as if they were Absolutes. As always, wherever the scriptures leave question marks, or even present question marks as answers- I prefer to leave them in place. Peace, John

If I could say so without seeming overly spiritual, I believe that God revealed Eternity, and Perfection to me in this way when I was thinking about what Heaven would be like.

"Perpetually, and perfectly fold-forging a perfect ingot of perfect metal"

Japanese swords are made through a process called fold forging, where the hot metal is folded onto itself in order to get rid of the impurities in it, instead of the usual way of just beating the carbon out of it directly.

So, if you applied that sort of idea to Eternity, you'd continually be "perfecting" the already perfect, and continually reforging the perfect into ever increasingly beautiful works of art; even arts like the art of living, or the art of music, or even worship is an art.  These things will already be perfect, but continually, and eternally reforged into new manifestations of perfection.

Just what I believe I'd received about the subject, perhaps it might resonate.  :2c:

I HEAR IT. :bigGrin:

Quote from: Lefein on November 05, 2010, 06:18:28 AM
If I could say so without seeming overly spiritual, I believe that God revealed Eternity, and Perfection to me in this way when I was thinking about what Heaven would be like.

"Perpetually, and perfectly fold-forging a perfect ingot of perfect metal"

Japanese swords are made through a process called fold forging, where the hot metal is folded onto itself in order to get rid of the impurities in it, instead of the usual way of just beating the carbon out of it directly.

So, if you applied that sort of idea to Eternity, you'd continually be "perfecting" the already perfect, and continually reforging the perfect into ever increasingly beautiful works of art; even arts like the art of living, or the art of music, or even worship is an art.  These things will already be perfect, but continually, and eternally reforged into new manifestations of perfection.

Just what I believe I'd received about the subject, perhaps it might resonate.  :2c:

:bigGrin: That's how I see God as an ever creating entity who does not stop creating but continually grows. If God knows all things, that might be true in the second they were written, but then he can create even more and then still know all things.

You bet!  And that is just great!!

Quote from: Lefein on November 05, 2010, 06:18:28 AM
If I could say so without seeming overly spiritual, I believe that God revealed Eternity, and Perfection to me in this way when I was thinking about what Heaven would be like.

"Perpetually, and perfectly fold-forging a perfect ingot of perfect metal"

Japanese swords are made through a process called fold forging, where the hot metal is folded onto itself in order to get rid of the impurities in it, instead of the usual way of just beating the carbon out of it directly.

So, if you applied that sort of idea to Eternity, you'd continually be "perfecting" the already perfect, and continually reforging the perfect into ever increasingly beautiful works of art; even arts like the art of living, or the art of music, or even worship is an art.  These things will already be perfect, but continually, and eternally reforged into new manifestations of perfection.

Just what I believe I'd received about the subject, perhaps it might resonate.  :2c:

:cloud9: That was beautiful and sounds just like Him...... :thumbsup:

willieH: Hi Brother EW...  :winkgrin:

I enjoyed your response and have considered it, ...here is my reply to it!   :HeartThrob:

Quote from: eaglesway on November 05, 2010, 06:05:36 AM
Hi Willie,

I thoroughly read your post. Lots of interesting stuff. Some of which I agree with, some I don't, some I am not sure yet - as usual :o)

That's okay...   :winkgrin:  we are all learning, and in that learning, things we thought we knew as truth, were actually shielded from it.  Since 2000 (quite a momentous year for me), ...I have learned that many of the things that I considered as TRUTH, actually were not truth at all... and in humility, and dilgence, I continue to surge forward, anxiously awaiting further revelation in the time I have left to seek... And will surely find some (if not many) things that I hold presently... to be in need of further alteration by our Father...

QuoteI am quite certain that time definitely actually exists.

I have no doubt of that either...  :thumbsup: ...but the proposal that it existed prior to its revelation (other than as KNOWLEDGE that was KNOWN in the heart of YHVH), ...and/or that it shall exist beyond its "end" is what I question.

Quote from: eaglesway on November 05, 2010, 06:05:36 AMTime is a substantial part of this present reality/revelation, according to the scriptures. I thoroughly reject reducing the scriptures to arguments in semantics. Yet, I am also quite certain that time is being progressively swallowed up by the NOW- which is also the "I AM THAT I AM" and the "WAS, IS, WILL BE "of YHWH.

I can agree with that... :nod:  ...however I see the notations of --- "was, is and will be" --- as notations for our benefit as cognizant members of TIME (not ETERNITY) and are issued "condescensions" from the ETERNAL heart YHVH to those (us) within the FINITE state, ...a "mercy" which is given due to our lack of the true vision and comprehension of the ETERNAL state...

Quote from: eaglesway on November 05, 2010, 06:05:36 AMThe Now/I AM/YHWH will become "All in All"- eventually. At least in so far as the scriptures are concerned, we do not yet see all things subject unto Him. Only after all things become subject/summed up in Christ will God be "all in all"(IMO). Until then at least, time is. He has made it so.

That we (in this finite condition and scenario) cannot "see" that all things ARE SUBJECT to Him, does not mean that they ARE not... It only means that WE are yet to "see" that THEY ARE...  YHVH is an UNCHANGING entity... so He NEVER "becomes" anything that He IS NOT (already).  Such suggestion of CHANGE means that He is other than COMPLETE and in need of "enhancements" --  :mshock:

Mal 3:6 -- this SCRIPTURAL statement is either truth or deception... I choose to believe it to be TRUTH.  :winkgrin:

Quote from: eaglesway on November 05, 2010, 06:05:36 AMThe idea that something is perfect, does not, in my mind, eliminate that it can grow/expand/etc. In fact, such continuing growth is, IMO, a chief element of perfection and a big part of the promise of eternity. Logic arguments are affected by the parameters of our perspective/paradigm and are not always as complete as we think they are.

Your "mind" is welcome to this perception and belief, bro... and you are not alone, for it is quite commonly held by most. (even L. Ray Smith! -- who is of the MOST CONTROVERSIAL of teachers!) 

However if indeed this were TRUE, then YHVH God could not claim to be ALL KNOWING or "all anything" for that matter, ...for there are things (according to your present vision), that are NOT KNOWN by Him, for you designate "PERFECT" (which means COMPLETE), as something INCOMPLETE and in the process of "growth"...

That proposes to the meaning of the word "PERFECT" that it does not mean what it implies... something in the state of "PERFECTION" means that it is not in need of ANY ALTERATIONS, for it is COMPLETE in EVERY CONCIEVABLE observation.

If we are to take your definition of the word "PERFECT"... then the demand of GOD that we be loving, blessing, and forgiving our brothers is only POSSIBLY PERFECT, as the Father in Heaven is POSSIBLY PERFECT -- Matt 5:48 -- and that these suggestions in -- Matt 5:43-47 -- will someday (as YHVH "grows"), be "possibly" altered in some way!   :faint: 

Sorry bro, ...you are welcome to embrace this, ...but as I see it, it is COMPLETELY and PERFECTLY...  unacceptable.  :mnah:

KNOWLEDGE is POWER...  The designation of ALL in the word "ALMIGHTY" means that NO "might" exists that is NOT in His capacity NOW... and you appear to suggest that YHVH has "growth" to enhance PERFECTION... which He claims is HIS state... means that CHANGE is afoot for Him.  I cannot agree with this thinking.  :dontknow:

To suggest that there is something that YHVH does NOT "know", means that along with that lack, POWER is also lacking, for it recommends that His CAPACITY is limited to a measurement that is INCOMPLETE... And further suggests IMPERFECTION as well as demeans the TRUTH of the term "ALMIGHTY"...

Quote from: eaglesway on November 05, 2010, 06:05:36 AMI understand the teaching that we existed in an ever-present eternal way with God before the foundation of the world,- I am not convinced, but I am not closed to the idea nor is it new to me. I think some of the things you express represent a theoretical understanding which may or may not be fully correct/real, but as usual, I am open to the Holy Spirit for further enlightenment.

I fully realize that what I write or understand can easily be other than PERFECT... for I am not in a state of perfection, and readily admit this.  :blush: ...however, this belief is NOT something I was EVER taught by anyone... nor is it common in ANY "christian" circles...  It is quite a strong position and can be SCRIPTURALLY argued from several different directions... (which I am able to do, if one wishes to contend with the position I hold.)    In this, you have not rebuttled the position, only stated that it does not lie within the beliefs that you hold, without presenting that belief,  ...nor showing by the use of Scripture that my position is in some way, inaccurate.  :dontknow:

That ALL the SONS (BEN which is universally used in the OT in reference to GENEOLOGICAL designation) of God were present at creation is SCRIPTURALLY documented, not to mention that there are MANY other supporting verses to my "belief" (which you presently term as "theory")... such as has already been named in the "parable of the Lost Son"... as well as Jeremiah's notation of himself, ...that as stated BY YHVH, he was KNOWN (by YHVH) prior to being manifest in his mother's womb -- Jer 1:5

The very same word (know/knew) -- #H3045 -- YADA  -- is used in -- Psalm 46:10 as well as so many Scriptures (and I'll provide 20 or 30 or more if you need them) -- that designates MORE than INFORMATION, rather points to EXPERIENCE combined with INFORMATION...

To "KNOW" is not just solely ...the possession of "information"... rather to "KNOW" includes EXPERIENCE of whatever is "KNOWN"...  I have given examples in the past such as this:

EXAMPLE --- You can read a million BOOKS about "how to drive"... and have ALL information concerning "DRIVING"... but until one actually "DRIVES"... one does not KNOW "how to drive"

This same example can be applied to anything that is considered as KNOWLEDGE... You don't KNOW how to cook, or KNOW how to fly a plane, or KNOW how to type on a keyboard, just because you have gained the INFORMATION that surrounds them...

Quote from: eaglesway on November 05, 2010, 06:05:36 AMAlso, Some of my questions are asked for the purpose of provoking thought, not necessarily because I am seeking an in depth theological presentation concerning them, (as you said, eternity and time are big subjects) but I am grateful for your presentation, there are many good thoughts included in it.  It is just that I prefer to present Possibilities concerning some things, lest I should commit the error of declaring my Possibilities or even Probabilities to others as if they were Absolutes. As always, wherever the scriptures leave question marks, or even present question marks as answers- I prefer to leave them in place. Peace, John

That is fine my brother... you are welcome to your way, far be it from me to seek to change YOU... That is God's biz!  I present my observations, and leave them to Him to use or not use concerning others.

Before I close, ...It is significant to note that I did not designate ANYTHING that I said to you as "ABSOLUTE"... and it is inaccurate to infer that I did...   

Until I do so (name ANY of my beliefs as ABSOLUTE), then this appears to be more of a "STRAWMAN" (the word, absolute), than an address of the things I said.  :dontknow:   If this was not your intention toward my words, then please consider that I retract this ahead of time with apologies! - :HeartThrob:

I am not insecure on the postions I hold... that does not mean they cannot be proven as inaccurate... Goodness sake!  Such arrogance is only found in those who are no longer "students", vainly percieving they have "arrived" in complete understanding of the WORD, with NOTHING left to learn!

But until such time as you or anyone else (inspired by YHVH), might show them via Scriptural testimony to be inaccurate (again, only as the Holy Spirit would guide), ...I shall hold on to them tightly!  :thumbsup:

:Peace: me bratha...  :afFro:

Quote from: micah7:9 on November 01, 2010, 04:26:10 AM
It is my thought as of late, that eternity is not what I thought it to be. I had always been taught that eternity was a realm of no time. Why?  I felt and read that God created time just for this creation.

Did God create the ages? Yes.
Are ages time? Yes.
Did God live before the ages? Yes.

So God lives His eterinity outside of time. (one of the attributes of omnipresent imo)

 :cloud9: I think He lives outside of it, and inside of it at the same time.  :dontknow:

He is everywhere, and has authority over time (sun stood still) so, it makes sense he is above it, as well as in it.

Hi Willie,

quote from EW
    The idea that something is perfect, does not, in my mind, eliminate that it can grow/expand/etc.  In fact, such continuing growth is, IMO, a chief element of perfection and a big part of the promise of eternity. Logic arguments are affected by the parameters of our perspective/paradigm and are not always as complete as we think they are.


reply from W
However if indeed this were TRUE, then YHVH  God could not claim to be ALL KNOWING or "all anything" for that matter, ...for there are things (according to your present vision), that are NOT KNOWN by Him, for you designate "PERFECT" (which means COMPLETE), as something INCOMPLETE and in the process of "growth"...

This may or may not be true. It is a logic argument based on what you believe is the complete picture. My proposal is that perfection may be like a river flowing, an ever mellifluous song, etc. For instance, for God to "know" all, may mean a kind of knowing we are as yet unfamiliar with (who has known the mind of the Lord). The perfect, complete, knowledge of which you speak is quite likely- "how to be like the wind"- and not limited to a "volume" of knowing, but rather in the experience of a state of being. For instance, once something is completely filled with God.....permeated with His fulness(for so it pleased the Father for all the fulness to dwell in Him...and of His fulness have we all received...and you are in Him having been filled) He can be all in all in all of it whatever it is doing/being. This union and harmony is my vision of perfection. The limitations of one paradigm may be the chaff fallen off of another. Even as we "abide" in the vine and "continue" in His word now- this seed which has been sown in imperfection will be raised in perfection- but we are told plainly that we DO NOT KNOW what that perfection will be in several places.

Also Willie, I was not impliyng that you are insisting that all your shares are absolutes, I was merely trying to explain that I prefer to hold discussions such as this one in the realm of possibilities and probabilities as opposed to establishing "doctrine" or setting, or even seeking, "absolutes"- its more fun and IMO more edifying because we can shift perspectives and re-examine and sift our ideas and our revelation. As I have stated before in many posts- I believe we see through a glass darkly concerning much of this- and while I love pressing into the mind of Christ- I do not feel the need to be too emphatic while enjoying the exploration of my brothers and sisters thoughts on the matter- including yours :o), Peace, John

Quote from: Cardinal on November 05, 2010, 11:05:16 PM
:cloud9: I think He lives outside of it, and inside of it at the same time.  :dontknow:

:thumbsup:

God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things; And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us: For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
(Act 17:23-28)

I think He lives in everywhere and everywhen and everyone. :o)

Quote from: eaglesway on November 06, 2010, 12:50:01 AM

Quote from: Cardinal on November 05, 2010, 11:05:16 PM
:cloud9: I think He lives outside of it, and inside of it at the same time.  :dontknow:

:thumbsup:

God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things; And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us: For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
(Act 17:23-28)

I think He lives in everywhere and everywhen and everyone. :o)

He lives out side of it and in side of it because HE IS TIME, thats why time cannot and will not stop. Its an amazing thing that man has so much to say about a word in the Bible that is only used once..ETERNITY...not even God has much to say about it, but man has alot to say about it. Time...does not stop with death....Jehovah

Quote from: micah7:9 on November 05, 2010, 05:06:31 AM
Has time stopped here?
Psa 102:27  But, thou, art, the same,—And, thy years, shall have no end:
Or here?

Isa 9:7  Of the increase of dominion, and of prosperity, There shall be no end—Upon the throne of David and Upon his kingdom, By establishing it and By sustaining it, With justice and With righteousness,—From henceforth, Even unto times age-abiding: The jealousy of Yahweh of hosts, will perform this!
Or here?

Luk 1:33  And he shall reign over the house of Jacob, unto the ages, and, of his kingdom, there shall be, no end.

How do these verses fit into your verse listed above?

1Co 15:25  For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.   until?

1Co 15:27  For HE HAS PUT ALL THINGS IN SUBJECTION UNDER HIS FEET. But when He says, "All things are put in subjection," it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him.
1Co 15:28  When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.


Paul

Quote from: Pierac on November 06, 2010, 05:36:11 AM

Quote from: micah7:9 on November 05, 2010, 05:06:31 AM
Has time stopped here?
Psa 102:27  But, thou, art, the same,—And, thy years, shall have no end:
Or here?

Isa 9:7  Of the increase of dominion, and of prosperity, There shall be no end—Upon the throne of David and Upon his kingdom, By establishing it and By sustaining it, With justice and With righteousness,—From henceforth, Even unto times age-abiding: The jealousy of Yahweh of hosts, will perform this!
Or here?

Luk 1:33  And he shall reign over the house of Jacob, unto the ages, and, of his kingdom, there shall be, no end.

How do these verses fit into your verse listed above?

1Co 15:25  For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.   until?

1Co 15:27  For HE HAS PUT ALL THINGS IN SUBJECTION UNDER HIS FEET. But when He says, "All things are put in subjection," it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him.
1Co 15:28  When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.


Paul

Ok my bad as usual ,time is over at until. Got it, dont want to be stubborn about this, your  correct. Thanks, Im a slow learner.

If I may be perhaps a little unorthodox, and maybe a bit prodding;  Why is it important that time not exist in the inheritance to come?  Are we afraid we'll grow old?  Time is a part of creation, and God redeems our time - I suspect that time will not end, and I am absolutely certain that God will redeem it, and glorify it to be as he intended.

Glorified time sounds an awful lot more positive, and worthwhile than..."suspended time"; in my opinion anyway.

Good reasoning. :bigGrin:

 :cloud9: My  :2c:....For me, it's because of what He spoke to me about time being the measurement of death, AND, the fact that it is yet another boundary that we only have to experience here.

If the last enemy to be destroyed is death, and time is the measurement of death, then what would time be needed FOR, after the last enemy is destroyed? There would be nothing to measure, all would live forever in Him, fully redeemed.

I would propose that the reason Jesus walked thru walls is not because He was a spirit, which He proved He wasn't, ONLY, but because He overcame death, the last enemy, He could walk unhindered in a time BEFORE the wall was even built. Physicists believe there are "doors"; even science is catching up to spiritual ideas. Blessings...

One  cant counter that My :2c:

Micah, is there a thread of sarcasm in your posts today?
Or is that sushi?

Quote from: Beloved Servant on November 06, 2010, 06:19:43 AM
Micah, is there a thread of sarcasm in your posts today?
Or is that sushi?

Its diffinetlly sarcasim

Didn't time exist before death? The first - seventh "days" of creation all took place before the fall. Scripture says death reigned from Adam..... Again, I am just looking at the possibilities presented by the Word. It appears to me that time was from the beginning of creation, before death.

Genesis starts with "There was night. There was day"
That sounds like time to me.

Quote from: WhiteWings on November 06, 2010, 10:42:55 AM
Genesis starts with "There was night. There was day"
That sounds like time to me.

But the Bible ends with just day all the time, at least in the city--no darkness there.

So it starts off all darkness and ends up all light.

There is no time in the light, but the darkness marks off the ages.

Quote from: eaglesway on November 06, 2010, 08:49:55 AM
Didn't time exist before death? The first - seventh "days" of creation all took place before the fall. Scripture says death reigned from Adam..... Again, I am just looking at the possibilities presented by the Word. It appears to me that time was from the beginning of creation, before death.

:cloud9: Yes, something has to die to create time. The whole creation process was a type of death/lowering for God. But I think Him giving them dominion over the creation, meant that originally they were spirit in some form, as spirit is supposed to rule over soul, until they became lowered themselves. The difference in the "lowering" was in the motive of the heart. God's reason was different from Eve's, whose reason was pure selfishness. My  :2c: Blessings....

You can't have growth, planting, harvesting, increase, fruit, or abundance without time either.

Time is an easy concept in our 4D world (3.5D actually)
But when adding more dimensions time still exists but at teh same time isn't there anymore.
It's so different it can hardly be compared.

http://weirdsciences.net/2010/04/13/what-would-a-flatlander-really-see/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JkxieS-6WuA&feature=related

Quote from: Lefein on November 06, 2010, 06:52:31 PM
You can't have growth, planting, harvesting, increase, fruit, or abundance without time either.

I think you can,   the assumption is that certain things must take place within a certain time.  Yet water in a pot boils when it boils the amount of time is only relevant if you think it ought to happen in a time frame you expect.   If there is no expectation of time, then something happening doesn't require time.

If something takes place somewhere on earth where there is nothing imposed upon it as far as an expectation then time is irrelevant to it's occurance.  I have reaped harvests when I reaped them time had nothing to do with it.   I have manifested fruit and the time when it happened was irrelevant because there was no expectation concerning when it should occur, it just did when it did.

Another thought that occured to me is this.  Back in the day just as computers were starting to come with CD drives I couldn't afford one.  But I bought a couple of CD games, my wife said why did you buy them when you can use them.  I said I will eventually,  and she asked when, I said whenever it happens, I know it will.  Time was irrelevant as I set no limit or expectation for time I just knew I would get a cd drive for my computer and was not concerned with when.

Yet timed passed, and you had your CD drive.

Motion is measured by time and distance and speed - without time, you have no movement.

Quote from: Lefein on November 06, 2010, 08:41:52 PM
Yet timed passed, and you had your CD drive.

Motion is measured by time and distance and speed - without time, you have no movement.

Time as we are told to define it has passed, but time had no bearing upon me getting a cd drive or not getting one.  I got it and  my perception of how long it took was irrelevant to it occuring.

We measure things in time because that is how we perceive accomplishment.    If I am not concerned with how long a trip takes, then distance and speed is irrelevant.  It only matters when we operate within time if we are forced to do so.   I am forced by my companies adherance to time if I wish for them to pay me.   If I had the ability to operate outside of the realm of time that others expect then time would be irrelevant because I would do things when I did them and I would not have to watch time at all.

Within the thread topic I believe that is how God is,  he can do all sorts of things and time is irrelevant because he is not subject to anything concderning when or how long anything last or takes or an expectation of when it should occur.

Quote from: Lefein on November 06, 2010, 08:41:52 PM
Yet timed passed, and you had your CD drive.

Motion is measured by time and distance and speed - without time, you have no movement.

God is omnipresent so He doesn't move? So He doesn't experience time?

Imagine your body has build in time travel capability.
You just think you want to be in the year 500 BC and you are in that year. Then you think of being in the year 2000 AD and instantly you are in that time.
Did you have to wait 2499 years? Did you experience time?
In a certain way there is time because the year 500 BC and 200AD exist.
But the awareness of time is completly gone or so vastly different from what we have now it can hardly be compared.

Now imagine you can not only travel in time but also during that time travel move to another place a 1000 miles away.
Example: You travel 5 years back in time and arrive at a place 1000 miles away from your present location.
Did you travel that distance? Did it take some time?
Now use that same time travel to travel 2000 miles but travel 0 seconds in time. Did you move to another place? Did it take time?

That, imo, is a very simple view of God's omnipresence.

Psa 102:27  But, thou, art, the same,—And, thy years, shall have no end:
Isa 9:7  Of the increase of dominion, and of prosperity, There shall be no end—Upon the throne of David and Upon his kingdom, By establishing it and By sustaining it, With justice and With righteousness,—From henceforth, Even unto times age-abiding: The jealousy of Yahweh of hosts, will perform this!
Luk 1:33  And he shall reign over the house of Jacob, unto the ages, and, of his kingdom, there shall be, no end.

NO END

NO  G3756    ou     A primary word; the absolutely negative (compare G3361) adverb; no or not:
END  G5056  telos   From a primary word τέλλω tellō (to set out for a definite point or goal); properly the point aimed at as a limit, that is, (by implication) the conclusion of an act or state (termination [literally, figuratively or indefinitely], result [immediate, ultimate or prophetic], purpose);
NO END
NO  H369  'ayin  As if from a primitive root meaning to be nothing or not exist; a non-entity; generally used as a negative particle:
END H7093 qêts  Contracted from H7112; an extremity; adverbially (with prepositional prefix) after: -  + after, (utmost) border, end, [in-] finite, X process.
NO 1) not[whether or no] 2) not at any degree; not at all 3) nay; not so: opposite of yes used to deny refuse, or disagree,
END 1) a limit or limiting part; point of beginning or stopping, boundary 2) the last part of anything; final point ; finish; completion, conclusion.
Eternity H5703  From H5710; properly a (peremptory) terminus, that is, (by implication) duration, in the sense of perpetuity (substantially as a noun, either with or without a preposition): - eternity, ever (-lasting, -more), old, perpetually, + world without end.
H5710  A primitive root; to advance, that is, pass on or continue; causatively to remove; specifically to bedeck (that is, bring an ornament upon): - adorn, deck (self), pass by, take away.

Quote from: Lefein on November 06, 2010, 06:52:31 PM
You can't have growth, planting, harvesting, increase, fruit, or abundance without time either.

I don't know about that. On what information can a conclusion like that be based? Are we so confident that we see into eternity that we can make such a statement :o). If time is a record of that which must end, perhaps at some point time itself will end and our transformation will transcend time. Would such a transformation eliminate the possibility of abundance? increase?

We really don't know the substance of eternity as yet. We have only glimpses. Yet, I hear so many confident "logic arguments". "Oh, well if this is thus, then that
must be so and so..."   I'm not being disagreeable I hope, I just think the truth about this is far beyond(olam) our "conclusions".

willieH: Hi EW...  :happygrin:

Quote from: eaglesway on November 06, 2010, 12:36:41 AM
Hi Willie,

    The idea that something is perfect, does not, in my mind, eliminate that it can grow/expand/etc.  In fact, such continuing growth is, IMO, a chief element of perfection and a big part of the promise of eternity. Logic arguments are affected by the parameters of our perspective/paradigm and are not always as complete as we think they are.

Quote from: willieHHowever if indeed this were TRUE, then YHVH  God could not claim to be ALL KNOWING or "all anything" for that matter, ...for there are things (according to your present vision), that are NOT KNOWN by Him, for you designate "PERFECT" (which means COMPLETE), as something INCOMPLETE and in the process of "growth"...

Quote from: eaglesway on November 06, 2010, 12:36:41 AMThis may or may not be true. It is a logic argument based on what you believe is the complete picture.

It is fine for you to hold your position (and I do not condemn the position, nor you for holding it),  ...but the fact remains that if something is in a "growth" scenario... according to any observation containing REASON (which God invites us to do, and in that invitation is contained the fact that we are ABLE to do so), something which is "GROWING" has not arrived at ANY state of COMPLETION in the portion that the observation, notes as "growing"...  :dontknow:

Quote from: eaglesway on November 06, 2010, 12:36:41 AM
My proposal is that perfection may be like a river flowing, an ever mellifluous song, etc. For instance, for God to "know" all, may mean a kind of knowing we are as yet unfamiliar with (who has known the mind of the Lord).

That GOD "knows ALL" and is ETERNAL, ...and that we are --- (1) finite and limited to 100yrs of existence (or less) and, --- (2) are limited to 2 or 3% of useable brain capacity, certainly soundly inhibits us from approaching any attempt at observing the "knowledge" which is considered "ALL"...  Heck... we cannot even claim to "know" what MAN "knows" in totality!

A given man can be called a "GENIUS" such as let's say --- Albert Einstein... But was he really a GENIUS?

Did He know how to program a computer, or change a transmission in a car, or diagnose cancer in a human being, or draw an engineering schematic, or mix concrete, or cook every recipe which has been cooked by humanity?  Please...  When Albert Einstein is compared to the total "knowledge" of MAN which has manifest in the History of humanity, he is just another almost TOTALLY lacking, DUMB SHEEP!   A dimwit that didn't really "KNOW" anything to speak of... 

I honestly intend no offense ito Mr. Einstein, as think of him as a "smart or knowledgeable" man, but the truth is that in comparison, to one we might consider to be a "smart or knowledgeable man"...  YHVH GOD knew of EVERY moment of his life (and ours), as well as ALL events the surrounded him (and us), that were before him (and us) and are after him (and us)...  :dontknow:

Quote from: eaglesway on November 06, 2010, 12:36:41 AMThe perfect, complete, knowledge of which you speak is quite likely- "how to be like the wind"- and not limited to a "volume" of knowing, but rather in the experience of a state of being. For instance, once something is completely filled with God.....permeated with His fulness(for so it pleased the Father for all the fulness to dwell in Him...and of His fulness have we all received...and you are in Him having been filled) He can be all in all in all of it whatever it is doing/being. This union and harmony is my vision of perfection. The limitations of one paradigm may be the chaff fallen off of another. Even as we "abide" in the vine and "continue" in His word now- this seed which has been sown in imperfection will be raised in perfection- but we are told plainly that we DO NOT KNOW what that perfection will be in several places.

I COMPLETELY ("perfectly"  :laughing7:) disagree with this brother EW... 

GOD does not have a "volume" of knowing for a "volume" has limitation.  That GOD "knows" ALL... means that ALL that CAN be KNOWN (without boundary), is beheld by Him... BIG DIFFERENCE.

If something were to exist that couldn't be KNOWN by GOD, then He is no longer ALL knowing, and incapable of knowing it... and therefore NOT Almighty, for there exists things of which GOD is unaware, and therefore NOT the "GOD" of those things...

OMNIPOTENCE is FULLNESS... as is OMNIPRESENCE... as is OMNISCIENCE... one cannot exist without the other.  If GOD were not EVERYWHERE (OMNIPRESENT), then there would be events (no matter how small or insignificant), of which HE would be unawares... and therefore He could not be considered OMNIPOTENT concerning those things (having power over them), nor OMNISCIENT (unaware of the informational details of them)...  :dontknow:

In the WORD, ...we are INSTRUCTED to BE PERFECT --- AS IS He -- Matt 5:48 -- and if we are instructed to be PERFECT and this verse is TRUE, ...then there is an EXISTENT potential of the one INSTRUCTED, ...to becomie PERFECT by following that instruction, otherwise the instruction is HOGWASH and even worse than that, ...UNREASONABLE!  If the INSTRUCTION of the WORD is UNREASONABLE, than we are ALL in quite a mess... and the WORD is become unto us such a thing that cannot be depended upon.  :sigh:

We are told that the MAN of GOD may become PERFECT [complete] by the administration of the WORD -- 2 Tim 3:16-17

PERFECTING [completion] is a process which the Scriptures note to be, now ON-GOING -- Eph 4:12 -- If PERFECT means NEVER arriving at the state of COMPLETION... then these Scriptures ALL bear false witness...

Quote from: eaglesway on November 06, 2010, 12:36:41 AM
Also Willie, I was not impliyng that you are insisting that all your shares are absolutes, I was merely trying to explain that I prefer to hold discussions such as this one in the realm of possibilities and probabilities as opposed to establishing "doctrine" or setting, or even seeking, "absolutes"- its more fun and IMO more edifying because we can shift perspectives and re-examine and sift our ideas and our revelation.

Thanks for clarifying this brother... but that you hold this to be YOUR way, is not a basis for me to adopt it.   I welcome your "way" as yours and as acceptable to you, as well as your right to maintain it... however...

I think that though we must remain OPEN to the leading of GOD concerning Him and His knowledge and agenda... we must also FIRMLY remain planted in the things He has REVEALED to us along the way, until such time as HE decides to alter them... Not blowing about within the "leaves" of possibility or probability, but remaining firmly standing inside the SHOES which are embedded in the ROCK, and founded upon REASON which He has availed to us... which has resulted from a PERSONAL search of His WORD and its premises...  If we believe even ONE THING without having verified it in the WORD, we stand upon sand in that (unverified) "belief"...

That I cannot KNOW the immense, overwhelming capacity of GOD and His KNOWLEDGE, does not mean that I should "believe" this or that, and in "believing" consider it might be FALLIBLE!   Where does FAITH exist in such a practice?  That is "believing" with a foundation of DOUBT.  We are to be seeking in the WORD, and letting the WORD establish what we "believe"... not other men.  Nor should we be about the practice and insecurity of DOUBT of what we believe...

GOD intends that we be without revelation in certain areas... but only the stagnant believer, shall hold beliefs which he/she has never searched out for him/herself, and is a "believer" in word only, and has not SOUGHT YHVH within his/her desire to KNOW Him.   "Knowing" OF HIM, ...never "knowing" Him...

What good are beliefs to us, if they must remain nothing but (expected) SHIFTING PERSPECTIVES?  That I believe in the CDS (complete divine sovereignty), notes that YOU are where you ARE, and I AM where I AM in that picture, because HE has decided both our perspectives... That does not mean that either of us are immersed in the futility of EVER SHIFTING what we "believe"...

Believing as I do... I am perfectly at PEACE with both, where I am VEILED, as well as where I am REVEALED... for I know that GOD is truly IN CONTROL... and HE has decided both my "veilings" and "revelations"...  In that PEACE, I (in the process of perfection) continue to search and discuss with such wonderful minds as yours (also in the process of perfection)...  :winkgrin:

I personally believe that most who are GIVEN their beliefs by others... are lying in collective confusion.  Those who are disregarding what is commonly thought until it is REASONABLY PROVEN in the WORD to them, are -- (1) truly seeking (2) open to and demanding a firm foundation (3) vessels which might be filled...

Those who are handed their beliefs by the TRADITIONAL teachings of the "church"... are those who are immersed in foolishness and in truth, their faith is not their own, it is a borrowed set of fallacies.

If I believe there is NO HELL, and it is because I have thoroughly researched the issue... and it turns out that I am INCORRECT... then I have at least exhibited and enacted the desire to KNOW the truth... and have remained TRUE as a seeker and to myself...  The batter that WATCHES ineptly the 3rd strike is immensely LESS than the one that at least "took a swing", and missed...

Quote from: eaglesway on November 06, 2010, 12:36:41 AMAs I have stated before in many posts- I believe we see through a glass darkly concerning much of this- and while I love pressing into the mind of Christ- I do not feel the need to be too emphatic while enjoying the exploration of my brothers and sisters thoughts on the matter- including yours :o), Peace, John

I have thoroughly enjoyed your posts, and hold high regard to many things you have stated... It is easy to see that you are a searcher of the WORD... and in my own personal growth as a believer, you have certainly made me think many times, and contributed to that growth as your words have been used by GOD to provoke me to re-think or retrace what I believe...  :thumbsup:

That said, I do not aspire to change anyone here or elsewhere.  I have observations that I share here and elsewhere, and in my best effort, seek them to be aligned with REASON and LOGIC while ever searching for the SPIRITUAL which always shall contain those two elements.  :wink1:

Our definitions of perfection and completion are different, as well perhaps as our conception in this particular instance of the word growth. Is a plant perfect when it is a seed? Yes, it may be a perfect seed. Is it complete? Well, that determines the purpose you envision for it. Is a mature plant perfect? Yes. It may be perfect. Is it complete? Definitely, if it is bearing more seeds. Can that which is perfect grow? I do not think it is beyond the scope of reason to propose that....that which is perfect and complete may continue to grow. The exploration and enjoyment of eternal beings allows for that. Relationship allows for that. In my view that's what is is ALL about. When I meet someone, and we become friends, brothers, sisters, etc.- the joy of that union is the exploration and celebration of the infinite returns of an exchange of being within the "I AM".

If you define your paradigm as encompassing every reasonable possibility so be it. I just don't think it is necessarily so- I am not yet convinced. The least of my concerns is whether or not anyone condemns my perspectives on time and eternity, as they are still evolving, partially through fellowship with others, including you :o) - and partially through my own considerations, which may never fully end(I hope they don't!). As I have already stated, I will continue to address the possibilities allowed in the Word, unless and until someone should show me something closer to an absolute- in the Word.

I sometimes see circular logic arguments that are based in the perceptions of those who make them, not in the Word of Life. I am sure some of my perceptions are incomplete or in error for similar reasons. We are all so limited, as Paul said, "If any man thinks he knows anything he knows not yet as he ought to know." In explaining my way in this, I certainly have no expectation that anyone else should adopt it. You are you and I am me and there's the rub- and the goodness  as well ;o)

The whole creation will unshackled into the glorious liberty of the sons of God- joy unspeakable and full of glory, peace that surpasses understanding, and the koinonea of the Father and the Son.... "That you may be one as I and the Father are one-I am in the Father and the Father is in Me and I am in you". This is the perfection and the completion that will be fulfilled in us as the first-fruits, predestined to be conformed to the image of the Son. From there on, who knows how that perfection and completion will manifest within the "ALL IN ALL". Peace, John

willieH: Hi-D-ho EW...  :laughing7:

Quote from: eaglesway on November 07, 2010, 12:22:16 AM
Our definitions of perfection and completion are different, as well perhaps as our conception in this particular instance of the word growth. Is a plant perfect when it is a seed? Yes, it may be a perfect seed. Is it complete? Well, that determines the purpose you envision for it. Is a mature plant perfect? Yes. It may be perfect. Is it complete? Definitely, if it is bearing more seeds. Can that which is perfect grow? I do not think it is beyond the scope of reason to propose that....that which is perfect and complete may continue to grow. The exploration and enjoyment of eternal beings allows for that. Relationship allows for that. In my view that's what is is ALL about. When I meet someone, and we become friends, brothers, sisters, etc.- the joy of that union is the exploration and celebration of the infinite returns of an exchange of being within the "I AM".

If you define your paradigm as encompassing every reasonable possibility so be it. I just don't think it is necessarily so- I am not yet convinced. The least of my concerns is whether or not anyone condemns my perspectives on time and eternity, as they are still evolving, partially through fellowship with others, including you :o) - and partially through my own considerations, which may never fully end(I hope they don't!). As I have already stated, I will continue to address the possibilities allowed in the Word, unless and until someone should show me something closer to an absolute- in the Word.

I sometimes see circular logic arguments that are based in the perceptions of those who make them, not in the Word of Life. I am sure some of my perceptions are incomplete or in error for similar reasons. We are all so limited, as Paul said, "If any man thinks he knows anything he knows not yet as he ought to know." In explaining my way in this, I certainly have no expectation that anyone else should adopt it. You are you and I am me and there's the rub- and the goodness  as well ;o)

The whole creation will unshackled into the glorious liberty of the sons of God- joy unspeakable and full of glory, peace that surpasses understanding, and the koinonea of the Father and the Son.... "That you may be one as I and the Father are one-I am in the Father and the Father is in Me and I am in you". This is the perfection and the completion that will be fulfilled in us as the first-fruits, predestined to be conformed to the image of the Son. From there on, who knows how that perfection and completion will manifest within the "ALL IN ALL". Peace, John

Cool...  :grin:

I think what I said in the previous post, has already answered the content of this one!  :nod: >>> :wink1: >>> :laughhand:

:Peace: bro...

Quote from: Cardinal on November 06, 2010, 06:34:39 PM

Quote from: eaglesway on November 06, 2010, 08:49:55 AM
Didn't time exist before death? The first - seventh "days" of creation all took place before the fall. Scripture says death reigned from Adam..... Again, I am just looking at the possibilities presented by the Word. It appears to me that time was from the beginning of creation, before death.

:cloud9: Yes, something has to die to create time. The whole creation process was a type of death/lowering for God. But I think Him giving them dominion over the creation, meant that originally they were spirit in some form, as spirit is supposed to rule over soul, until they became lowered themselves. The difference in the "lowering" was in the motive of the heart. God's reason was different from Eve's, whose reason was pure selfishness. My  :2c: Blessings....

Don't think I agree that the creation process is in itself a "lowering" of God, if I am understanding what you are saying. The Word says that God subjected the creation to futility, in order that He might raise it again into the glorious liberty of completed agape koinonea. At this point, I don't think death ruled before Adam, so I believe God who knew all and causes all things to work according to the counsel of His own will created time as a part of the process- before He subjected the creation to futility/death. And now, as all things are being made new, in the continuing creation of agape koinonea that will eventually swallow everything- I see the creation as a pure expression of the I AM, who has done all that He has done so that Love will fill all. Not just love as an abstact theory, but love as the celebration and exploration of the beauty of relationship.

Quote from: Eagleswayagape koinonea

'agape koinonea'--I like that!  :thumbsup:


John 15:15
Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.

Quote from: eaglesway on November 07, 2010, 12:40:55 AM

Quote from: Cardinal on November 06, 2010, 06:34:39 PM

Quote from: eaglesway on November 06, 2010, 08:49:55 AM
Didn't time exist before death? The first - seventh "days" of creation all took place before the fall. Scripture says death reigned from Adam..... Again, I am just looking at the possibilities presented by the Word. It appears to me that time was from the beginning of creation, before death.

:cloud9: Yes, something has to die to create time. The whole creation process was a type of death/lowering for God. But I think Him giving them dominion over the creation, meant that originally they were spirit in some form, as spirit is supposed to rule over soul, until they became lowered themselves. The difference in the "lowering" was in the motive of the heart. God's reason was different from Eve's, whose reason was pure selfishness. My  :2c: Blessings....

Don't think I agree that the creation process is in itself a "lowering" of God, if I am understanding what you are saying. The Word says that God subjected the creation to futility, in order that He might raise it again into the glorious liberty of completed agape koinonea. At this point, I don't think death ruled before Adam, so I believe God who knew all and causes all things to work according to the counsel of His own will created time as a part of the process- before He subjected the creation to futility/death. And now, as all things are being made new, in the continuing creation of agape koinonea that will eventually swallow everything- I see the creation as a pure expression of the I AM, who has done all that He has done so that Love will fill all. Not just love as an abstact theory, but love as the celebration and exploration of the beauty of relationship.

:cloud9: Sometimes it's hard to explain what you "see", Amen? God, who is Spirit, formed the creation out of Himself, and in so doing took a "lesser" glory upon Himself. He did not create something out of "nothing", the creation is like "light jelled", and He is that light. My  :2c: Blessings.....

Quote from: eaglesway on November 06, 2010, 12:50:01 AM

Quote from: Cardinal on November 05, 2010, 11:05:16 PM
:cloud9: I think He lives outside of it, and inside of it at the same time.  :dontknow:

:thumbsup:

God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things; And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us: For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
(Act 17:23-28)

I think He lives in everywhere and everywhen and everyone. :o)

Theres a difference between his hand on creation and he himself being in all things. The breath of life is different spirit to the holy spirit. The holy spirit is personal, whereas the breath of life is animating spirit that is in all things, such as an animal. I don't see God living inside a pitbull terrier, I think God has a hard enough time living in us christians, with our stained vesssels, and only the blood of Jesus sanctifies it for his spirit to live within us. Also this laptop I speak with is made of plastic, I can't see God himself living inside it, but his spirit of workmanship is in it, on a quantum level.

Thinktank, I, me, myself will contend you have said a mighty word here.
"Theres a difference between his hand on creation and he himself being in all things. The breath of life is different spirit to the holy spirit. The holy spirit is personal, whereas the breath of life is animating spirit that is in all things, such as an animal. I don't see God living inside a pitbull terrier, I think God has a hard enough time living in us christians, with our stained vesssels, and only the blood of Jesus sanctifies it for his spirit to live within us. Also this laptop I speak with is made of plastic, I can't see God himself living inside it, but his spirit of workmanship is in it, on a quantum level.
I was just going to do a study on that very thing.
Peace and Love Through Jesus

 :cloud9: His Spirit IS life, the whole creation has His Spirit in it (yes, even terriers) :winkgrin:, because He poured Himself into it, like wine into a wineskin, which is why it says let everything that hath breath, praise the Lord.

My favorite true story about that is one that came out in the news about the cricket's legs. Some scientists created some machine that magnifies sound to the extreme never-before-heard level, and they were shocked when they listened to cricket's legs rubbing against one another. To their surprise, it sounded like the most beautiful symphony.

Everything of the creation has His breath in it, it was created to praise Him, and it does (even though we can't hear it); it praises Him in the song, a message that resonates. When NDE's like my uncle said that they heard the most beautiful music they had ever heard when they died, I fully believe they were hearing the creation. My  :2c: Blessings.....

Quote from: Cardinal on November 06, 2010, 06:34:39 PM

Quote from: eaglesway on November 06, 2010, 08:49:55 AM
Didn't time exist before death? The first - seventh "days" of creation all took place before the fall. Scripture says death reigned from Adam..... Again, I am just looking at the possibilities presented by the Word. It appears to me that time was from the beginning of creation, before death.

:cloud9: Yes, something has to die to create time. The whole creation process was a type of death/lowering for God. But I think Him giving them dominion over the creation, meant that originally they were spirit in some form, as spirit is supposed to rule over soul, until they became lowered themselves. The difference in the "lowering" was in the motive of the heart. God's reason was different from Eve's, whose reason was pure selfishness. My  :2c: Blessings....

I don't see why something has to die to create time. Since when was time asscoiated with death?
I think that in this world we live in that the idea of time causes death, is so intertwined within us that we cannot see Perfect life without time existing. Time is simply measurement or advancement, not advancement of death. Jesus came to abolish death, not time.
:2c:

Quote from: Cardinal on November 07, 2010, 01:33:01 AM
:cloud9: His Spirit IS life, the whole creation has His Spirit in it (yes, even terriers) :winkgrin:, because He poured Himself into it, like wine into a wineskin, which is why it says let everything that hath breath, praise the Lord.

My favorite true story about that is one that came out in the news about the cricket's legs. Some scientists created some machine that magnifies sound to the extreme never-before-heard level, and they were shocked when they listened to cricket's legs rubbing against one another. To their surprise, it sounded like the most beautiful symphony.

Everything of the creation has His breath in it, it was created to praise Him, and it does (even though we can't hear it); it praises Him in the song, a message that resonates. When NDE's like my uncle said that they heard the most beautiful music they had ever heard when they died, I fully believe they were hearing the creation. My  :2c: Blessings.....

I think your assuming here. I challenge you to look into it. The holy spirit for example if often said to be given at the day of pentecoast, when men began to utter in different tongues and all the gifts of the spirit, this is after the sacrifice of Jesus, for before then our temples were unclean. How can righteousness dwell in unholy vessels?

The music in the cricket doesnt mean that God is in the cricket, simply that his workmanship of breath is in it. The same way in which a music artist records a song and now that cd plays back that song.

Mother earth is another example, does God wake up every day and decide to rain here, but not there? If so then why are there weather patterns in different countries? Rather that God has built a weather machine, that responds predictably, give or take the action and words of men which destroy the natural pattern and cause destruction, such as droughts and storms.

Yes, but it changes nothing. The crickets story is wonderful and great, but it does not prove your theory.  You may disallow this scripture 1Co 15:45  Thus, also, it is written—The first man, Adam, became, a living soul, the last Adam, a life-giving spirit.
1Co 15:46  Howbeit, not first, is the body of the spirit, but that, of the soul,—afterwards, that of the spirit.
There is I contend an important difference with Gen. 1:2 and Gen. 2:7. The Lord God made/formed man a living soul. That is not my two cents, that is the Word of God.

God is the Father of spirits but the former of souls.

Quote from: Beloved Servant on November 07, 2010, 04:20:32 AM


God is the Father of spirits but the former of souls.

Deep. What does that mean?

Quote from: micah7:9 on November 01, 2010, 04:08:37 AM
The word "eternity" is only used once in the entire Bible [ Isa. 57:15] Yet much is said of eternity in many disccusions, its lenght or its lengthlessness. Just what is eternity?
Isa 57:15 For thus says Yahweh, high and lifted up, who tabernacles the future, and holy is His name:"In the high and holy place am I tabernacling, and with the crushed and lowly spirit, to preserve alive the spirit of the lowly, and to preserve alive the heart of the crushed."(CLV)
Isa 57:15  For, thus, saith he that is high and lifted up—Inhabiting futurity, And, holy, is his name: A high and holy place, will I inhabit, Also with the crushed and lowly in spirit, To revive the spirit of the lowly, and To revive the heart of them who are crushed;— (Rotherham)
Isa 57:15  For thus said the high and exalted One, Inhabiting eternity, and holy is His name: `In the high and holy place I dwell, And with the bruised and humble of spirit, To revive the spirit of the humble, And to revive the heart of bruised ones,'
Isa 57:15  For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy: I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite. (ASV)

Just some facts ;o)

(Isa 57:15)  For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity(h5703 ad), whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones.


H5703
עד
‛ad
ad
From H5710; properly a (peremptory) terminus, that is, (by implication) duration, in the sense of perpetuity (substantially as a noun, either with or without a preposition): - eternity, ever (-lasting, -more), old, perpetually, + world without end.

H5710
עדה
‛âdâh
aw-daw'
A primitive root; to advance, that is, pass on or continue; causatively to remove; specifically to bedeck (that is, bring an ornament upon): - adorn, deck (self), pass by, take away.


(Exo 15:18)  The LORDH3068 shall reignH4427 for everH5769 and ever.H5703
(Exo 15:18)  yhwh H3068 malak H4427 olam olam H5769 ad H5703

(Psa 10:16)  The LORDH3068 is KingH4428 for everH5769 and ever:H5703 the heathenH1471 are perishedH6 out of H4480his land. H776
(Psa 10:16)  yhwh H3068 malak H4428 olam olamH5769 ad H5703 goy goyH1471 abadH6 min minny minneyH4480 erets. H776

Yahweh reigns through the end of the ages and beyond- unbelievers perish off of the solid ground(my translation)


This Hebrew word adoccurs 48 times in the OT about half the time it is combined with olam - "olam olam ad". It is the "ever" in "forever and ever"

LOWEST TO HIGHEST:  MAN AND GOD COMPARED


While much rarer than the world I was born into, there are people groups on the planet today that live in what the world calls "primitive" conditions.  I lean toward the thought that they are really in a degenerate condition.  Whatever one calls it, they don't have a high culture.  Man's true original or primitive state  is much more elevated.  These kind of things are very difficult to talk about.  If I say they don't read and write you can say they read the clouds and the footprints in the forest floor.  Somehow, if you can, cut through all the clutter and forgive me if I don't say things without a bias, a sort of chauvinism I would prefer to transcend.  I want to make an analogy.  From those who don't wear clothes, who live in an eat or be eaten culture and die before 40 years old, or even worse, those starving and injured survivors of ongoing wars, even in prisons suffering, as one end of the scale, to those who have the finest of the worlds food and medicine, clothes and transport, artistry and learning, there are many steps between.  Many on the upper levels descend to the depths and the lowest, who, "From sitting on a dung heap, God elvates to sit among princes."  Thus is the outward condition of man.

Compare this to God.  Those on the lower steps of the ladder or stairway Jacob saw are in the realm of outward appearances, accepting the Adversary's push through abiding in truth and accepting lies about the contents of the containers they see.  The fiery darts of the wicked sting and draw their attention to the burning sensations and emotioning of the flesh.  The dart's fire illuminates where they've pierced with accusations that claim it is this or that innocent one who is being described by the dart of fire, they are at fault rather than the wicked who has made and thrown the dart.  These are being made enemies of the truth and enemies of man.  Even lower still are those actively pursuing the righteous to destroy them.  As one ascends, advancing in truth and going on into the glory of the increasing manifestation of God, everything becomes light and secrets revealed.  Liberty increases.  Identity changes.  On up and known is His being " Lord of all" ( loc.cit., Ac 10³⁶; also,Jos 3^11,13; Zec 6⁵) and even farther inward and upward, we are parts of "Lord of all." (Ga 4¹)  At the lower levels we think everybody is responsible for what kind of life they have.  I decide my own destiny.  In the upper regions, "...all is of God," (2 Co 5¹⁸) until we go on to experience that,"all and in all is Christ." (Col 3¹¹)


(J. M. Rohde)

 :cloud9: :thumbsup:

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