Reason I ask is I've been net chatting about hell with a few KJV readers and there pretty damn certain there is a hell and unfortunately most of us are going there.
I class myself as a believer in God and Jesus Christ but seems that's not enough.
You need to renounce all forms of organised religion (pretty sure most KJV readers have Pastors), you can't be a Catholic(my guess is some Catholics feel the same about non Catholics, but hopefully not all) as that's not really a Christian religion. As for Muslims, Budhists etc forget it, doesn't matter how good you are your damned.
Didn't realise there were so many un-Christians Christians out there.
Well, I lately signed onto another, mainstream Christian forum, and my treatment there moved me to coin this: The reason there aren't more Christians...is Christians.
Seriously, as far as the KJV and Hell are concerned, you just can't take the word "hell" as prima facie evidence. Words have definitions, and "hell" is translated from words with very different definitions from what today is associated with Hell. These words are:
sheol
hades
gehenna
tartarus.
A short time with a good concordance and a good dictionary (I recommend the OED) will point you in the right direction.
"Hell" originally meant "the grave" as a noun, and "to hide" or "to cover" as a verb. Language drift, bad theology, and translation following said bad theology have given us the Hell we think we know today. I had the nagging Question of where our ideas of Hell came from, and decided to plow through the KJV to find an answer. After over a year, checking every Book, Chapter, and Verse of the KJV, I failed to find sufficient evidence to put the doctrine of eternal, conscious, torment in Hell on the proverbial map. In fact, I found almost no evidence for it, and almost as little for the doctrine of annihilation.
I did find that God is both willing and able to save us from sin and death.
Also, 'Gehenna' is only mentioned by Jesus, with the exception of once by James, both of whom were speaking to Israel. Paul does not mention it a single time in any of his epistles, despite saying to those brethren at Ephesus that "...I have not shunned to declare to you the whole counsel of God..."
So, not ONE mention directly to a Gentile. Interesting...
Quote from: chester-blowfold on August 09, 2016, 08:00:26 PM
Reason I ask is I've been net chatting about hell with a few KJV readers and there pretty damn certain there is a hell and unfortunately most of us are going there.
I class myself as a believer in God and Jesus Christ but seems that's not enough.
You need to renounce all forms of organised religion (pretty sure most KJV readers have Pastors), you can't be a Catholic(my guess is some Catholics feel the same about non Catholics, but hopefully not all) as that's not really a Christian religion. As for Muslims, Budhists etc forget it, doesn't matter how good you are your damned.
Didn't realise there were so many un-Christians Christians out there.
funnily enough I was praying about 'hellists' and KJV type believers before I logged in...praying that I find love for them cos it bothers me how they misrepresent a loving God, saying He's going to burn people alive forever..they're so exclusive and judgmental...everybody else goes to eternal hell except them...very sad.
Quote from: Lazarus Short on August 09, 2016, 09:25:45 PM
Well, I lately signed onto another, mainstream Christian forum, and my treatment there moved me to coin this: The reason there aren't more Christians...is Christians.
Seriously, as far as the KJV and Hell are concerned, you just can't take the word "hell" as prima facie evidence. Words have definitions, and "hell" is translated from words with very different definitions from what today is associated with Hell. These words are:
sheol
hades
gehenna
tartarus.
A short time with a good concordance and a good dictionary (I recommend the OED) will point you in the right direction.
"Hell" originally meant "the grave" as a noun, and "to hide" or "to cover" as a verb. Language drift, bad theology, and translation following said bad theology have given us the Hell we think we know today. I had the nagging Question of where our ideas of Hell came from, and decided to plow through the KJV to find an answer. After over a year, checking every Book, Chapter, and Verse of the KJV, I failed to find sufficient evidence to put the doctrine of eternal, conscious, torment in Hell on the proverbial map. In fact, I found almost no evidence for it, and almost as little for the doctrine of annihilation.
I did find that God is both willing and able to save us from sin and death.
My feeling on this is you have to argue directly from scripture that in fact nowhere in the Holy writ does it teach that God will actually send people into a state or place where they are endlessly separated from Him or endlessly punished or endlessly destroyed. You must make it clear your second point because the first one isn't likely to wash.
Most people aren't likely to care that the word 'Hell' isn't in any of the original languages of the Bible or that it might have a pagan origin. They recognise it as an English word now and all they'll care about is if the Bible teaches the existence of whatever they understand that word to represent. If they believe it does, than they'll be perfectly happy with both the word and the conclusions behind it.
Quote from: CST on August 10, 2016, 12:56:49 PM
Quote from: Lazarus Short on August 09, 2016, 09:25:45 PM
Well, I lately signed onto another, mainstream Christian forum, and my treatment there moved me to coin this: The reason there aren't more Christians...is Christians.
Seriously, as far as the KJV and Hell are concerned, you just can't take the word "hell" as prima facie evidence. Words have definitions, and "hell" is translated from words with very different definitions from what today is associated with Hell. These words are:
sheol
hades
gehenna
tartarus.
A short time with a good concordance and a good dictionary (I recommend the OED) will point you in the right direction.
"Hell" originally meant "the grave" as a noun, and "to hide" or "to cover" as a verb. Language drift, bad theology, and translation following said bad theology have given us the Hell we think we know today. I had the nagging Question of where our ideas of Hell came from, and decided to plow through the KJV to find an answer. After over a year, checking every Book, Chapter, and Verse of the KJV, I failed to find sufficient evidence to put the doctrine of eternal, conscious, torment in Hell on the proverbial map. In fact, I found almost no evidence for it, and almost as little for the doctrine of annihilation.
I did find that God is both willing and able to save us from sin and death.
My feeling on this is you have to argue directly from scripture that in fact nowhere in the Holy writ does it teach that God will actually send people into a state or place where they are endlessly separated from Him or endlessly punished or endlessly destroyed. You must make it clear your second point because the first one isn't likely to wash.
Most people aren't likely to care that the word 'Hell' isn't in any of the original languages of the Bible or that it might have a pagan origin. They recognise it as an English word now and all they'll care about is if the Bible teaches the existence of whatever they understand that word to represent. If they believe it does, than they'll be perfectly happy with both the word and the conclusions behind it.
Well in a nutshell , they are still sitting in darkness , the worldly wisdom of satan and STILL being held captive BY FEAR OF DEATH , not even close to knowing the LOVE OF GOD fully /perfectly /completely yet . and have not risen to the Life in Christ yet as light in a dark place , they have yet to give up on the earthly life of pleasuring themselves by the lusts of the flesh in their hearts , causing more error /sins to multiply as prisoners to sin and prone to error
The Bible teaches us we are not to love our lives more than God , but Life and death are ours to experience and to not love our lives , but to accept death as a part of life IN CHRIST ... I see this as the first resurrection /to rise and come back up out of , from death ,, to STAND and not lie down or sit , to be lifted up to a higher place from a lower position [grave ] hell to me Isaiah 5 hell /sheol has enlarged herself [ BABYLON ] her children are marked for death
There is No understanding in the grave /outer darkness , just weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth/anger strife /divisions , the birthright of being born flesh and blood that NEVER pleases God nor never will and having the wrong spirit , the spirit of pride set for utter destruction ...
Until they rise up out of the BODY OF DEATH being granted by the LORD JESUS CHRIST and to sit with Him in His Fathers Throne [Rev 3 ] , they can NEVER EVER in the here and now comprehend grasp mentally; understand and encompass it being bound on earth by their own carnal minds , the carnal minded are in death and do not even realize it as such ..
Thus the need to be born again anew as a ''holy one '' new creature in Christ , described in the WORD/seed of Life , as to how this is done , by Gods own Spirit of Life . GOD alone gives us / grants us the spiritual growth as He Alone destroys Babylons hold on mankind .
Yeah, what of the fear of life and living? A lot of people have that too because they've been taught it leads to Hell.
'The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I came that they may have life, and have it abundantly.' (John 10:10)
Quote from: CST on August 10, 2016, 02:58:07 PM
Yeah, what of the fear of life and living? A lot of people have that too because they've been taught it leads to Hell.
'The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I came that they may have life, and have it abundantly.' (John 10:10)
I do believe that will be the main flaw when knowing that living and enjoying the good things of God and His blessing on them , having a thankful and grateful heart and holy , pure
relationship with Him was all God ever wanted them to experience in this life but they just could not understand it .
Thinking sin was so dark a covering they could not escape it , but it is a lie of the adversary .
Hebrews 12:28-29 - Therefore, since we receive a kingdom which cannot be shaken,
let us show gratitude, by which we may offer to God an acceptable service with reverence and awe; for our God is a consuming fire.Psalm 28:7 -The LORD is my strength and my shield;
My heart trusts in Him, and I am helped; Therefore my heart exults,
And with my song I shall thank Him.Psalm 69:30 - I will praise the name of God with song, And shall magnify Him with thanksgiving.
Colossians 2:6-7 - Therefore as you have received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in Him, having been firmly rooted and now being built up in Him and established in your faith, just as you were instructed
, and overflowing with gratitude.Psalm 34:1 -
I will bless the LORD at all times; His praise shall continually be in my mouth.Psalm 100:4 - Enter His gates with thanksgiving, And His courts with praise. Give thanks to Him; bless His name.
Jonah 2:9 - But I will sacrifice to You With the voice of thanksgiving. That which I have vowed I will pay Salvation is from the LORD."
Ephesians 5:3-4 - But immorality or any impurity or greed must not even be named among you, as is proper among saints; and there must be no filthiness and silly talk, or coarse jesting, which are not fitting,
but rather giving of thanks.1 Timothy 4:4-5 -
For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected, if it is received with gratitude; for it is sanctified by means of the word of God and prayer.1 Thessalonians 5:18
in everything give thanks; for this is God's will for you in Christ Jesus. GOD does will and desires obedience more than sacrifices Only can be done though Jesus Christ the Word made flesh .. :HeartThrob:
Quote from: CST on August 10, 2016, 12:56:49 PM
My feeling on this is you have to argue directly from scripture that in fact nowhere in the Holy writ does it teach that God will actually send people into a state or place where they are endlessly separated from Him or endlessly punished or endlessly destroyed. You must make it clear your second point because the first one isn't likely to wash.
Most people aren't likely to care that the word 'Hell' isn't in any of the original languages of the Bible or that it might have a pagan origin. They recognise it as an English word now and all they'll care about is if the Bible teaches the existence of whatever they understand that word to represent. If they believe it does, than they'll be perfectly happy with both the word and the conclusions behind it.
I have argued directly from the Scripture, but it would be difficult to post the 190 pages of
Heaven, Yes - Hell, No in this thread, and I don't do proof texts. Hell is a spiritual stronghold, and most people won't "get" it, but I am not writing to them - only to those who have eyes to see what they are looking at. With most, we will need to be content with baby steps at first, until such people are weaned from milk and ready for strong meat.
I suppose that the Baptist church in Topeka Kansas are probably the most extreme case of "Hellion" that I have seen. Look at their hearts, full of hatred and spite telling most everybody is on their way to a devil's hell. Have mercy on them, Lord.
:Pray:
Jock. :Peace2:
Quote from: rosered on August 10, 2016, 04:45:34 PM
Quote from: CST on August 10, 2016, 02:58:07 PM
Yeah, what of the fear of life and living? A lot of people have that too because they've been taught it leads to Hell.
'The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I came that they may have life, and have it abundantly.' (John 10:10)
I do believe that will be the main flaw when knowing that living and enjoying the good things of God and His blessing on them , having a thankful and grateful heart and holy , pure
relationship with Him was all God ever wanted them to experience in this life but they just could not understand it .
Thinking sin was so dark a covering they could not escape it , but it is a lie of the adversary .
Hebrews 12:28-29 - Therefore, since we receive a kingdom which cannot be shaken, let us show gratitude, by which we may offer to God an acceptable service with reverence and awe; for our God is a consuming fire.
Psalm 28:7 -The LORD is my strength and my shield; My heart trusts in Him, and I am helped; Therefore my heart exults, And with my song I shall thank Him.
Psalm 69:30 - I will praise the name of God with song, And shall magnify Him with thanksgiving.
Colossians 2:6-7 - Therefore as you have received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in Him, having been firmly rooted and now being built up in Him and established in your faith, just as you were instructed, and overflowing with gratitude.
Psalm 34:1 - I will bless the LORD at all times; His praise shall continually be in my mouth.
Psalm 100:4 - Enter His gates with thanksgiving, And His courts with praise. Give thanks to Him; bless His name.
Jonah 2:9 - But I will sacrifice to You With the voice of thanksgiving. That which I have vowed I will pay Salvation is from the LORD."
Ephesians 5:3-4 - But immorality or any impurity or greed must not even be named among you, as is proper among saints; and there must be no filthiness and silly talk, or coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks.
1 Timothy 4:4-5 - For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected, if it is received with gratitude; for it is sanctified by means of the word of God and prayer.
1 Thessalonians 5:18 in everything give thanks; for this is God's will for you in Christ Jesus.
GOD does will and desires obedience more than sacrifices Only can be done though Jesus Christ the Word made flesh .. :HeartThrob:
I don't feel that there's too much to be grateful for in this phase. But that's still better than when you believe in Eternal Torment. Then you can't be grateful for anything because everything created by God is not good but a trap designed to snare you and drag you to destruction.
Quote from: Lazarus Short on August 10, 2016, 05:15:16 PM
Quote from: CST on August 10, 2016, 12:56:49 PM
My feeling on this is you have to argue directly from scripture that in fact nowhere in the Holy writ does it teach that God will actually send people into a state or place where they are endlessly separated from Him or endlessly punished or endlessly destroyed. You must make it clear your second point because the first one isn't likely to wash.
Most people aren't likely to care that the word 'Hell' isn't in any of the original languages of the Bible or that it might have a pagan origin. They recognise it as an English word now and all they'll care about is if the Bible teaches the existence of whatever they understand that word to represent. If they believe it does, than they'll be perfectly happy with both the word and the conclusions behind it.
I have argued directly from the Scripture, but it would be difficult to post the 190 pages of Heaven, Yes - Hell, No in this thread, and I don't do proof texts. Hell is a spiritual stronghold, and most people won't "get" it, but I am not writing to them - only to those who have eyes to see what they are looking at. With most, we will need to be content with baby steps at first, until such people are weaned from milk and ready for strong meat.
I understand you 'don't believe in proof texts' I doubt the Bible can be used that way, but the original poster did appear to ask for such a thing so it might have been easier just to say that in the first place. And while I concur it would be unreasonable to post those 190 pages here but presumably there are certain choice excerpts that could be used.
For my part I was just pointing out my own position that I don't think it will be helpful to simply tell people the word Hell isn't in the Bible and explain that because a lot of people will just think 'Gehenna, that's the Greek word for "Hell" (even though it isn't)'.
Quote from: Jock on August 10, 2016, 05:56:04 PM
I suppose that the Baptist church in Topeka Kansas are probably the most extreme case of "Hellion" that I have seen. Look at their hearts, full of hatred and spite telling most everybody is on their way to a devil's hell. Have mercy on them, Lord.
:Pray:
Jock. :Peace2:
AMEN!
Quote from: Lazarus Short on August 09, 2016, 09:25:45 PM
Well, I lately signed onto another, mainstream Christian forum, and my treatment there moved me to coin this: The reason there aren't more Christians...is Christians.
Oh man.. I had to stop reading this thread and respond.. As I think this statement is so true! I began to challenge the 'hell' myth in a certain group of atheists vs christians (or vie versa..?) Soon after it seemed like everyone kept posting images and claims of people burning alive in fiery flames.. faces melting.. etc, etc.. Good grief. :laughing7: This, is supposed to convince an athesits to "believe". :laughing7:
Sorry.. I've been wanting to express that for a little while now.. :mshock: Also someone posted how 1 timothy 4:10 "God is the savior of all" is a strange and dangerous cult.. o brother...
Quote from: Lazarus Short on August 09, 2016, 09:25:45 PM
Words have definitions, and "hell" is translated from words with very different definitions from what today is associated with Hell. These words are:
sheol
hades
gehenna
tartarus.
I can never, ever resist a good (Bible) quiz:
imo,
sheol - which
ecclesiastes 9:10 says within, there is no thought nor doing
hades - "place of the dead" I figure is still sheol where there is neither thought nor doing
gehenna - the Jerusalem city dump where even criminal's bodies were burned, so it was kept burning, later legend was added to it
tartarus - deepest darkness (of character, this very dark)
Quote from: Lazarus Short on August 09, 2016, 09:25:45 PM
A short time with a good concordance and a good dictionary (I recommend the OED) will point you in the right direction.
"Hell" originally meant "the grave" as a noun, and "to hide" or "to cover" as a verb. Language drift, bad theology, and translation following said bad theology have given us the Hell we think we know today. I had the nagging Question of where our ideas of Hell came from, and decided to plow through the KJV to find an answer. After over a year, checking every Book, Chapter, and Verse of the KJV, I failed to find sufficient evidence to put the doctrine of eternal, conscious, torment in Hell on the proverbial map. In fact, I found almost no evidence for it, and almost as little for the doctrine of annihilation.
I did find that God is both willing and able to save us from sin and death.
:thumbsup: :thumbsup:
That thread examining every book of the Bible is an exceLLent thread!! (I coulda swore I bookmarked the link to it! :Chinscratch: )
Quote from: Shev on August 09, 2016, 11:30:23 PM
Also, 'Gehenna' is only mentioned by Jesus, with the exception of once by James, both of whom were speaking to Israel. Paul does not mention it a single time in any of his epistles, despite saying to those brethren at Ephesus that "...I have not shunned to declare to you the whole counsel of God..."
So, not ONE mention directly to a Gentile. Interesting...
:faint: I didn't realize that! wow..! :thumbsup:
---------------------------
http://tentmaker.org/forum/hellbusters-hallow/heaven-yes-hell-no/ - this is the thread Lazarus mentioned - It is however a 13 page thread.. but worth reading over time if you have time..
This is a one post thread of 77 Universal Reconciliation supporting verses - Not sure as it "proves" there is no 'hell' but very good nevertheless! - http://tentmaker.org/forum/rules-and-faq/77-ultimate-reconciliation-and-renewal-scriptures/msg118063/#msg118063
To me the "proof" that there is no hell is I figure any doctrine which denies #1 - God is not all (100%) good or #2 - God is not (100%) able! Almighty.. all powerful.. omni-able! Cannot be true, as surely(?) God can onLy be perfect!! Yes?
And, perfect makes no mistakes.. no errors in judgment.. and (surely?) can lose nothing! Otherwise, would not be perfect.. or to not care to save all.. which too.. seems to me, to lack Perfection.
Logic, to me, proves.. add to that God's Words - (Or, actually vice versa.. God's Words plus logic!) -
"the words of the Lord are flawless,
like silver purified in a crucible,
like gold refined seven times." - Ps 12:6
:Peace2: God bless!
P.S - just read this verse in another thread - "John 1:5 "The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it...."
if our heavenly Father were to
lose even one ..wouldn't that be darkness winning in that instance? And then could be said that darkness overcame the light..
Quote from: marie glen on August 10, 2016, 11:10:17 PM
http://tentmaker.org/forum/hellbusters-hallow/heaven-yes-hell-no/ - this is the thread Lazarus mentioned - It is however a 13 page thread.. but worth reading over time if you have time..
So not 190 then and I imagine that thirteen pages also includes replies from other members of the site. Where does the 190 come from? I'm imagining 190 posts by Lazarus and all the relevant replies. I may even get to that thread eventually but at the moment there's an awful lot of other post for me to get through. An awful, awful lot. This site is huge.
:laughing7: ...One of these days, I'm going to read a lot more of the material included on the tentmaker website.. hopefully.. maybe acquaint myself with some of the better known authors.. (It would help if I didn't have to sleep!)
It would, it would also help me if I had personal access to the internet instead of having to rely on limited and not entirely dependable public ones.
Quote from: marie glen on August 10, 2016, 11:10:17 PM
That thread examining every book of the Bible is an exceLLent thread!! (I coulda swore I bookmarked the link to it!
Marie, would you like a printed copy when I am done? There have been revisions and additions.
Quote from: CST on August 11, 2016, 02:07:50 PM
Quote from: marie glen on August 10, 2016, 11:10:17 PM
http://tentmaker.org/forum/hellbusters-hallow/heaven-yes-hell-no/ - this is the thread Lazarus mentioned - It is however a 13 page thread.. but worth reading over time if you have time..
So not 190 then and I imagine that thirteen pages also includes replies from other members of the site. Where does the 190 come from? I'm imagining 190 posts by Lazarus and all the relevant replies. I may even get to that thread eventually but at the moment there's an awful lot of other post for me to get through. An awful, awful lot. This site is huge.
The part of the manuscript on the thread is ~178 pages, but I have no idea how 178 Word-for-Mac pages translated into 13 thread pages.
Hi guys and gals.
We've not all got your great knowledge and intelligence.
Can you keep it a bit more simple?
Particularly rosered where my thick brain got none of that haha.
If you were explain to a child there was no hell how would you do it?
Quote from: chester-blowfold on August 11, 2016, 10:55:29 PM
Hi guys and gals.
We've not all got your great knowledge and intelligence.
Can you keep it a bit more simple?
Particularly rosered where my thick brain got none of that haha.
If you were explain to a child there was no hell how would you do it?
I actually did explain to my little children growing up , Chester , :dsunny:
I told them there is no hell like some believe there is, just like there is no santa claus or easter bunny either.
These are all lies and when you grow up you will understand what I am saying , My son honored me by saying ,'' Thanks Mom '', for telling me the truth from the start . This happened one day , when he was 24 years old and visiting us . I have been blessed to see my children have a spiritual core already working in them By the Word and Spirit of Life . A blessing for sure .
Hell is the grave /sheol /underworld this is the under heaven ''world '' we live in and are born ignorant of the things of God,as darkness , to me .
Jesus teaches us to pray for Gods will to be done on earth as it is in heaven , because it is not being done for the lack of faith and unbelief .
As we learn to trust in God by the answered prayers of exercising faith , than does heaven open for us , it is all a process and all in Gods power to do it .
And GOD always keeps his WORD .. God bless :HeartThrob:
Ask the KJV fundamentalist whether they have been to the lowest depths of Hell.
That's beautiful, Rose.
You had the opportunity to teach your children about UR, when they were still young.
I have discussed it with my children. They grew up emmersed in both 'religion' and faith, though we had many problems in my home.
But, they are grown now. My daughter now declares she is an atheist, and my son believes, but thinks I will 'outgrow' this phase. :scratchhead:
Praying..........
D.
And those who aren't religious or of a differing religion? Are these people saved as well?
Cristina, what do you mean?
Yes nice post rosered. Still manages to confuse though haha.
Oh Dandelion ,
We praise God for any and all understanding and will pray also for you children , God bless them always :HeartThrob:
Quote from: chester-blowfold on August 12, 2016, 11:01:58 AM
And those who aren't religious or of a differing religion? Are these people saved as well?
You are so precious Chester :HeartThrob:
This is an excellent opportunity to say , If God gives us life ,
It is certainly though His Spirit of Life and even those ignorant of His Word will know by the same Holy Spirit that teaches us to pray and make intercession for us , not knowing how to pray to the Father , the same ONE AND ONLY HOLY SPIRIT does the same for them also .
Nothing gets passed the FATHERS WILL than none should perish absolutely NOTHING ...
Jesus Christ died for ALL , not some or a few , but all , and it is each in their own order in how and when they RISE UP OUT OF DEATH into the newness of Life in the Spirit and truth , these same holy ones joined in the Body of Christ are also are praying , Gods will be done on earth as it is in heaven . Heaven knows already !!
The Spirit knows all things and teaches us to KNOW GOD whom is LOVE , all will love Him when they Know Him and understand ..
1 Cor 2 Spiritual Wisdom :dsunny: HOLY LIGHT/fully known and no darkness/ignorance at all ever again [Rev 21]
...9 Rather, as it is written: "No eye has seen, no ear has heard, no heart has imagined, what God has prepared for those who love Him."
10
But God has revealed it to us by the Spirit.
The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. 11For who among men knows the thoughts of man except his own spirit within him?
So too, no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.... How do we know the TRUTH in Spirit of God ?
By believing His Word, that is TRUTH .
Proof that we do ?
We love one another , everyone, everywhere, all the time same as ourselves !!!!!!!!!!!!!
praying in the SPIRIT, they Know God as we have known / learned of Him .
HIS WORD IS COMPLETE BY HIS OWN SPIRIT OF LIGHT IN LIFE .
The Light & Fire go hand in hand , being the power of God to separate ,
the things that must be removed in us all and joined together in HIM , what remains eternal that was always from Him in the first place ....
Quote from: chester-blowfold on August 12, 2016, 11:01:58 AM
And those who aren't religious or of a differing religion? Are these people saved as well?
I.M.O This life is just like sitting in a classroom where some pick up what is being taught quicker than others; but in the end everyone learns the same stuff. Some do not come into that class until they have been resurrected.
Jesus said;
" I am THE way, THE truth, THE life."
Jesus came and died for ALL mankind. He was 100% successful.
As in Adam all die, so in Christ will all be made alive, but each in his own turn.
The cost of sin is death[ not eternal punishment] but the GIFT of God is life.
To appreciate a gift we have to fully know it's application and abilities; that seems to be what we need to learn before receiving the gift.
All meant to be positive. :dsunny:
Quote from: Lazarus Short on August 11, 2016, 09:30:12 PM
Quote from: marie glen on August 10, 2016, 11:10:17 PM
That thread examining every book of the Bible is an exceLLent thread!! (I coulda swore I bookmarked the link to it!
Marie, would you like a printed copy when I am done? There have been revisions and additions.
Quote from: Lazarus Short on August 11, 2016, 09:32:15 PM
Quote from: CST on August 11, 2016, 02:07:50 PM
Quote from: marie glen on August 10, 2016, 11:10:17 PM
http://tentmaker.org/forum/hellbusters-hallow/heaven-yes-hell-no/ - this is the thread Lazarus mentioned - It is however a 13 page thread.. but worth reading over time if you have time..
So not 190 then and I imagine that thirteen pages also includes replies from other members of the site. Where does the 190 come from? I'm imagining 190 posts by Lazarus and all the relevant replies. I may even get to that thread eventually but at the moment there's an awful lot of other post for me to get through. An awful, awful lot. This site is huge.
The part of the manuscript on the thread is ~178 pages, but I have no idea how 178 Word-for-Mac pages translated into 13 thread pages.
So you planing to publish then? No, we may have some ended up talking at crossed-purposes here. If I've understood Glenda correctly your thread 'Heaven Yes, Hell No!' on Tentmaker comes to thirteen pages. And, if I've remembered correctly that will be anything between 301 and 325 posts. Some by you presenting the work, and some will be replies to what you've posted, some will probably be you replying to those replies. I have no idea how the work will be spread across those posts I've never seen that thread yet. So I don't know and you don't remember but I suspect the basic answer will be logically.
There's that word again, 'TRUTH' I'm think about writing my own thread entirely on that now.
Quote from: CST on August 12, 2016, 02:30:41 PM
There's that word again, 'TRUTH' I'm think about writing my own thread entirely on that now.
Hi CST ,
Truth is a great study , so is ''all things '' When you dig in much deeper than the surface of meanings , you will find some real ''gems '' and true treasures of the heart , that no one can take that away from you ....
HOLY SPIRIT teaches us the deep things of God , that the natural man has hidden from his eyes ....
God bless you always with more of Him :HeartThrob:
'All things' is a bit trickier, it often seems to feel there's a lot of different caveats behind all it's different uses and it can be translated so many different ways it's easy to miss study you'd want to include in your study.
Quote from: CST on August 12, 2016, 02:22:20 PM
So you planing to publish then? No, we may have some ended up talking at crossed-purposes here. If I've understood Glenda correctly your thread 'Heaven Yes, Hell No!' on Tentmaker comes to thirteen pages. And, if I've remembered correctly that will be anything between 301 and 325 posts. Some by you presenting the work, and some will be replies to what you've posted, some will probably be you replying to those replies. I have no idea how the work will be spread across those posts I've never seen that thread yet. So I don't know and you don't remember but I suspect the basic answer will be logically.
When I get it done to my satisfaction, I'm planning to send it for copyright, then publish, but the publishing seems a bit nebulous at this point. Having it pinned as a resource here on the Tent may be enough...
It might be me but it appears not to be pinned yet. I don't think you need to send it for copyright either, you just need to write (c)<name><date> on every page of it and it's copyrighted. Copyright is automatic or was when last I checked because that's how intellectual property works: you thought of it so you have ownership.
No, not pinned yet, but then, not finished yet. I'll look into how one copyright's things - I had thought it had to be submitted to the Library of Congress... :Chinscratch:
I think that might be patenting things. Not finished, seriously? That threads being going on for so long I thought it must be finished at least in that form.
There is a common law copyright for intellectual property but must be proved in a court of law if contested or if you want to enforce it over someone using your work without permission.
The Library of Congress submission is a fool proof method.
A Creative Commons stipulation is like a copyright establishing intellectual ownership and allowing use as long as the author is attributed, I have used it for music.
You can look that up at Creative Commons.org
MATTHEW 7: 13-14 Go into the narrow gate because the gate to HELL is wide and the road that leads to it is easy, and there are many who travel to it. But the gate to life is narrow and the way that leads to it is hard, and there are few people who find it
Any idea if this is just a miss translation?
Quote from: chester-blowfold on August 14, 2016, 12:27:28 AM
MATTHEW 7: 13-14 Go into the narrow gate because the gate to HELL is wide and the road that leads to it is easy, and there are many who travel to it. But the gate to life is narrow and the way that leads to it is hard, and there are few people who find it
Any idea if this is just a miss translation?
My KJV, which I think of as the SHT (Standard Hell Text) has it this way:
Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
What translation did you quote? Destruction, to me, pertains to the present age, our current lives.
Question: Does Hell/Gehenna/Hades actually have a gate or is Jesus being symbolic here? Obviously most here would think he's being symbolic but it's easy enough to take the expression literally if you want to. The Revelation states that the City of New Jerusalem has a gate, which is likely also symbolic, but the Lake of Fire appears not to have one, a gate being an odd thing for a lake to have.
Quote from: CST on August 15, 2016, 05:40:30 PM
Question: Does Hell/Gehenna/Hades actually have a gate or is Jesus being symbolic here? Obviously most here would think he's being symbolic but it's easy enough to take the expression literally if you want to. The Revelation states that the City of New Jerusalem has a gate, which is likely also symbolic, but the Lake of Fire appears not to have one, a gate being an odd thing for a lake to have.
I wan to only to help anyone whom God has blessed me to understand SOME things ,
not all things , but a few things
and one of them , it the gate is our mouth and when we open it , life and death are in our language /tongue .
James is clear to me that our tongue is the unruly little member of the body . being our whole body and it puts us in the water and fire , just as the young man whom Jesus healed when this young man was tossed from one to the other and his father asked Jesus to heal him , but the father lacked faith and asked Jesus to also increase his faith , these are stories with literal meaning , but with Spiritual truths in them
James describes the tongue as what sets on fire the course of hell / Gehenna judgment and no man can tame his tongue ...
God chastens whom he loves and we all get to experience both life and death spiritually speaking of a truth ..
3 Let not many of you become teachers, my brethren, knowing that as such we will incur a stricter judgment.
2 For we all stumble in many ways. If anyone does not stumble in what he says, he is a perfect man,
able to bridle the whole body as well.
3 Now if we put the bits into the horses' mouths so that they will obey us, we direct their entire body as well.
4 Look at the ships also, though they are so great and are driven by strong winds, are still directed by a very small rudder wherever the inclination of the pilot desires. 5
So also the tongue is a small part of the body, and yet it boasts of great things.
See how great a forest is set aflame by such a small fire!
6
And the tongue is a fire, the very world of iniquity; the tongue is set among our members as that which defiles the entire body, and sets on fire the course of our life, and is set on fire by hell. 7 For every species of beasts and birds, of reptiles and creatures of the sea, is tamed and has been tamed by the human race.
8
But no one can tame the tongue; it is a restless evil and full of deadly poison. 9
With it we bless our Lord and Father, and with it we curse men, who have been made in the likeness of God; 10 from the same mouth come both blessing and cursing.
My brethren, these things ought not to be this way.
11 Does a fountain send out from the same opening both fresh and bitter water? 12 Can a fig tree, my brethren, produce olives, or a vine produce figs? Nor can salt water produce fresh.
13 Who among you is wise and understanding?
Let him show by his good behavior his deeds
in the gentleness of wisdom. 14 But if you have bitter jealousy and selfish ambition in your heart, do not be arrogant
and so lie against the truth. 15 This wisdom is not that which comes down from above, but is earthly, natural, demonic. :sigh:
16
For where jealousy and selfish ambition exist, there is disorder and every evil thing. 17
But the wisdom from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, reasonable, full of mercy and good fruits, unwavering, without hypocrisy. 18 And the seed whose fruit is righteousness is sown in peace by those who make peace. I do believe we are our own worst enemy when we speak and are not careful what we say and do , it will get worse before it gets better , But God will keep us in line because He loves us so very much and has a plan that cannot fail .... an infallible WORD AND SPIRIT working in us all till the end , everyone called out of the world /darkness each in their own order and being dealt with personally .. .... I am confident enough to say we can glorify Him for all He has done already as we wait on the Lord .
Quote from: chester-blowfold on August 14, 2016, 12:27:28 AM
MATTHEW 7: 13-14 Go into the narrow gate because the gate to HELL is wide and the road that leads to it is easy, and there are many who travel to it. But the gate to life is narrow and the way that leads to it is hard, and there are few people who find it
Any idea if this is just a miss translation?
The word translated here as "hell" is -
apōleia
ap-o'-li-a
ruin or loss, destruction
from - http://studybible.info/IGNT/MATTHEW%207:%2013-14 and http://studybible.info/strongs/G684
Quote from: Lazarus Short on August 14, 2016, 01:47:49 AM
My KJV, which I think of as the SHT (Standard Hell Text)
:laughing7: ...can't help but laugh.. :smile:
Quote from: CST on August 15, 2016, 05:40:30 PM
Question: Does Hell/Gehenna/Hades actually have a gate or is Jesus being symbolic here? Obviously most here would think he's being symbolic but it's easy enough to take the expression literally if you want to. The Revelation states that the City of New Jerusalem has a gate, which is likely also symbolic, but the Lake of Fire appears not to have one, a gate being an odd thing for a lake to have.
:Chinscratch: interesting.. something to ponder.. no gate to the lake..
"gate to hell" -- gate to "ruin, loss, destruction" is wide.. (the direction away from God..?) and narrow the gate to life.. (one way, toward God :smile: narrower.. but ultimately wide, once in the gate?.. spacious green pastures..)
Quote from: rosered on August 15, 2016, 08:03:58 PM
a restless evil and full of deadly poison
...so true, isn't it?! :mshock:
Quote from: rosered on August 15, 2016, 08:03:58 PM
I do believe we are our own worst enemy when we speak and are not careful what we say and do , it will get worse before it gets better , But God will keep us in line because He loves us so very much and has a plan that cannot fail .... an infallible WORD AND SPIRIT working in us all till the end , everyone called out of the world /darkness each in their own order and being dealt with personally .. .... I am confident enough to say we can glorify Him for all He has done already as we wait on the Lord .
:thumbsup: :thumbsup: Amen! :girlheart:
So many examples :iagree:
Amen Marie :dsunny:
Gate a metaphor the access or entrance into any state /condition .
I shoulda ,woulda and coulda , lol :laughing7: just said simply any ''opening'' that includes about everything and anything that was shut has a entrance , utterance , opening ..
Somes times it is TMI too much information ...... but I have always felt this world was HELL ... A separation from God that can only be restored by Faith in
and because of Jesus Christ / our great gulf fixed by Gods Spirit and His Word ... depending how little or how much you desire to know God , I think it was for me
, just tasting Him , made me desire more and more of Him .. that is the most simple answer I have .
Now hell , that is as Marie stated in definition , also simply /grave / prison/ bad /low state of being trapped in suffering loss .
Because God is gain and makes us new :dsunny:
Quote from: marie glen on August 17, 2016, 12:12:39 AM
Quote from: chester-blowfold on August 14, 2016, 12:27:28 AM
MATTHEW 7: 13-14 Go into the narrow gate because the gate to HELL is wide and the road that leads to it is easy, and there are many who travel to it. But the gate to life is narrow and the way that leads to it is hard, and there are few people who find it
Any idea if this is just a miss translation?
The word translated here as "hell" is -
apōleia
ap-o'-li-a
ruin or loss, destruction
from - http://studybible.info/IGNT/MATTHEW%207:%2013-14 and http://studybible.info/strongs/G684
Quote from: Lazarus Short on August 14, 2016, 01:47:49 AM
My KJV, which I think of as the SHT (Standard Hell Text)
:laughing7: ...can't help but laugh.. :smile:
Quote from: CST on August 15, 2016, 05:40:30 PM
Question: Does Hell/Gehenna/Hades actually have a gate or is Jesus being symbolic here? Obviously most here would think he's being symbolic but it's easy enough to take the expression literally if you want to. The Revelation states that the City of New Jerusalem has a gate, which is likely also symbolic, but the Lake of Fire appears not to have one, a gate being an odd thing for a lake to have.
:Chinscratch: interesting.. something to ponder.. no gate to the lake..
"gate to hell" -- gate to "ruin, loss, destruction" is wide.. (the direction away from God..?) and narrow the gate to life.. (one way, toward God :smile: narrower.. but ultimately wide, once in the gate?.. spacious green pastures..)
You're joking! If the word in Chester's translation that is being translated 'Hell' is actually the word for 'destruction' and neither of the common New Testament 'Hell' words either Gehenna or Hades (I was only using all three because I didn't know which it was) then there's actually nothing to ponder. What I said was meaningless and what Rose said was meaningless because it was based on an incorrect understanding of the text. There's no point me talking about the Lake of Fire or Rose arguing from Jame's use of Gehenna is those terms aren't involved. I suppose I kind of knew that but was led by the translation as given.
So, that's my bad then. I missed the meaning of the primary posts. Of course it's also possible the text Chester is using is not a mistranslation but simply a correct translation of an alternate version of Matthew which he has got. Oh no, I checked. He appears to be using the New Lying Translation. I should have known they love taking unjustified liberties like that.
:Chinscratch: to me, they're all the same.. gehenna as slang for hellfire, symbolizing, to me, destruction, loss, ruin - the end of the line, or end of the path of 'away from God' which can never end any other way... Oh! except hades - "place of the dead" I think, like sheol, is still the grave.. If I had any lingering doubt about hades, Lazarus Short's illustration in his thread "heaven yes, hell no" of how dirt = body + breath = living soul/breathing creature, pretty much sealed it up to me.. as far as personally, being convinced immortality is "put on" by believers at Jesus' return (1 Cor 15).. making a "place of the dead" (to my mind) to be simply the dust of the grave (and legend/myth).
As we know, to others, "place of the dead" equates to a 'hell' :mshock: :faint: worse case scenario.. [which, imo, defies all logic] or previous to its 'christian' use, was simply a shadowy "place of the dead" (with good levels and bad levels?)
I forgot about "tartarus".. deepest darkness? a state of character rather than place, is how I think of it.. thus the way it's used, as being locked into judgment..
That doesn't necessarily mean that they meant the same thing to the original audience, start talking like that and you are in danger of justifying the antics of the New Lying, err, Living Translation who in their Study Bible respond to our favored verse in Romans 5:15 thus -
'But there is a great difference between Adam's sin and God's gracious gift. For the sin of this one man, Adam, brought death to many. But even greater is God's wonderful grace and his gift of forgiveness to many through this other man, Jesus Christ.' (Rom. 5:15 - NLT)
'5:15 Paul uses the word many in contrast with one. Many does not always mean all but it can include all people if the context suggests it. Clearly the many who suffer death because of Adam includes everyone (see 5:12), but Paul makes it clear elsewhere that the many who receive the gift of forgiveness through Jesus Christ, sadly, does not include everyone (see 11:1-5) :eyebrow: :wacko2: :angry1: There is so much wrong with that sentence never mind how Rom, 11:1-5 in no way qualifies such a statement.
As you may have noticed I don't believe in the Devil but, to me the New Living Translation and its Study Bible has all the hallmarks of a work of the Devil. It's a really pretty Bible, with loads of text boxes and illustrations probably the most beautiful Bible I have ever seen. But it's theology is ET and it goes out of it's way to push it both in its translation and its study notes, along with other dubious theologies it holds.
Beware of the New Living Translation, just an unqualified warning from me. :laughing7:
Quote from: CST on August 17, 2016, 05:57:43 PM
That doesn't necessarily mean that they meant the same thing to the original audience
I figure take away the legends attached to the words.. because Eccles 9:10 tells us what sheol/the grave is "where there is neither thought nor doing"
Quote from: CST on August 17, 2016, 05:57:43 PM
, start talking like that and you are in danger of justifying the antics of the New Lying, err, Living Translation who in their Study Bible respond to our favored verse in Romans 5:15 thus -
'But there is a great difference between Adam's sin and God's gracious gift. For the sin of this one man, Adam, brought death to many. But even greater is God's wonderful grace and his gift of forgiveness to many through this other man, Jesus Christ.' (Rom. 5:15 - NLT)
'5:15 Paul uses the word many in contrast with one. Many does not always mean all but it can include all people if the context suggests it. Clearly the many who suffer death because of Adam includes everyone (see 5:12), but Paul makes it clear elsewhere that the many who receive the gift of forgiveness through Jesus Christ, sadly, does not include everyone (see 11:1-5) :eyebrow: :wacko2: :angry1: There is so much wrong with that sentence never mind how Rom, 11:1-5 in no way qualifies such a statement.
As you may have noticed I don't believe in the Devil but, to me the New Living Translation and its Study Bible has all the hallmarks of a work of the Devil. It's a really pretty Bible, with loads of text boxes and illustrations probably the most beautiful Bible I have ever seen. But it's theology is ET and it goes out of it's way to push it both in its translation and its study notes, along with other dubious theologies it holds.
Beware of the New Living Translation, just an unqualified warning from me. :laughing7:
I agree! their twist of 15:5 pretty much contradicts what it's really saying..- "But, not as the offence so also [is] the free gift; for if by the offence of the one
the many did die,
much more did the grace of God, and the free gift in grace of the one man Jesus Christ,
abound to the many;"
:smile:
Yeah, I continue to be less than convinced that how you're understanding that part of Ecclesiastes is actually what it says but this probably isn't the thread to discuss that.
Their translation of 5:15 is a spectacular abuse but what really gets my goat is their use of the word 'sadly' in the note, basically acknowledging that even they can imagine it would be better if the more naturally understanding were correct. They usurp their false god with their words even while trying to defend him.
Quote from: CST on August 17, 2016, 02:14:06 PM
Quote from: marie glen on August 17, 2016, 12:12:39 AM
Quote from: chester-blowfold on August 14, 2016, 12:27:28 AM
MATTHEW 7: 13-14 Go into the narrow gate because the gate to HELL is wide and the road that leads to it is easy, and there are many who travel to it. But the gate to life is narrow and the way that leads to it is hard, and there are few people who find it
Any idea if this is just a miss translation?
The word translated here as "hell" is -
apōleia
ap-o'-li-a
ruin or loss, destruction
from - http://studybible.info/IGNT/MATTHEW%207:%2013-14 and http://studybible.info/strongs/G684
Quote from: Lazarus Short on August 14, 2016, 01:47:49 AM
My KJV, which I think of as the SHT (Standard Hell Text)
:laughing7: ...can't help but laugh.. :smile:
Quote from: CST on August 15, 2016, 05:40:30 PM
Question: Does Hell/Gehenna/Hades actually have a gate or is Jesus being symbolic here? Obviously most here would think he's being symbolic but it's easy enough to take the expression literally if you want to. The Revelation states that the City of New Jerusalem has a gate, which is likely also symbolic, but the Lake of Fire appears not to have one, a gate being an odd thing for a lake to have.
:Chinscratch: interesting.. something to ponder.. no gate to the lake..
"gate to hell" -- gate to "ruin, loss, destruction" is wide.. (the direction away from God..?) and narrow the gate to life.. (one way, toward God :smile: narrower.. but ultimately wide, once in the gate?.. spacious green pastures..)
You're joking! If the word in Chester's translation that is being translated 'Hell' is actually the word for 'destruction' and neither of the common New Testament 'Hell' words either Gehenna or Hades (I was only using all three because I didn't know which it was) then there's actually nothing to ponder. What I said was meaningless and what Rose said was meaningless because it was based on an incorrect understanding of the text. There's no point me talking about the Lake of Fire or Rose arguing from Jame's use of Gehenna is those terms aren't involved. I suppose I kind of knew that but was led by the translation as given.
So, that's my bad then. I missed the meaning of the primary posts. Of course it's also possible the text Chester is using is not a mistranslation but simply a correct translation of an alternate version of Matthew which he has got. Oh no, I checked. He appears to be using the New Lying Translation. I should have known they love taking unjustified liberties like that.
I believe if you learn to trust God and this IS a learning experience by all our trials of faith [a substance being the Gift of God ]
as to being exercised with , it is useless buried in our earthly bodies with out any trials of faith , hope is lost and we are lost without the HOPE being made alive within us , we just simply learn /lean on our own understanding and remain ''trapped in a spiritual prison '' same as those Jesus come a preached to
While in the heart of the earth for 3 days [ this HELL] and still listening to the letter of the law that kills as you continue to kill and BE KILLED ,,, Under the law of mankind[son of man ] Moses and the prophets , these were always ''chosen '' and sent and were killed and mistreated and treated with contempt , Although they had been sent and was messengers with warnings of the things to come upon mankind , having the Spirit of TRUTH [Spirit of prophecy in them ....
Those voices below , still under the ministration of death , that remains earthly sensual and devilish , still accusing and not made whole yet ... none were made perfect in their day without us
They are now , for sure ...
The law and prophets represent the TRUE WORD SPOKEN , in the day , Being the seven thunders whom utter their voices under the song of Moses [sent first ]
and now with the Song of the Lamb also , From Heaven[ HEAR MY SON ] last , they are in the Body of Christ [ the anointing ] HOLY SPIRIT AND FIRE
What Jesus come to do was take the fear of death away and this finished work of the cross , giving us the mind of Christ BY HIS OWN SPIRIT OF LIFE ,and HIS TESTIMONY / WORD OF LIFE which is the SPIRIT OF PROPHECY, teaching us everything !!! This body of work protects us from the evil one in our minds , by giving us His own mind , obedience to the Will of God the FATHER and the Holy Spirit is what convicts us of sin , being cast down to our earth [bodies [ Romans 6 , 7 8 . Paul expounds on this perfectly , But woe unto the earth and the devil has come down to you ... our weak flesh , what is the work of the satan , this adversary cast out of heaven ? And now working in our mortal bodies for the utter destruction of our flesh ?
To tempt us to sin , and now live lavishly , thinking we have overcome the world / darkness , but now our faith is really put to the test !! We See Jesus being sent to the wilderness by the HOLY SPIRIT and overcoming satan by the WORD OF HIS TESTIMONY ,by the SPIRIT OF GOD that that is how it is done , by the narrow path that leads to Life being able follow His exact footsteps having this working within you till the end ... But many will go into spiritual captivity , Babylon[satan's throne is ] instead and be sent to the broad path that leads to destruction that ol religious self righteous spirit , thinking you have Jesus and no one else does , and I am holy and no one else has the truth but me and we will find out FAST , NO ONE IS HOLY BUT GOD HIMSELF !! your flesh is weak and beggarly of elements and are in the consuming fire with the liars and beast and satan and so overcome !!! oh there is repentance and weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth ! Esau lost his birthright in the same manner and seeing corruption , we all get to see this corruption , the destruction of the flesh by refusing to let the HOLY SPIRIT AND FIRE BE number ONE and lead us to Life , loving God first and one another as himself , This has always been the standard that all things are judged by , this WORD AND SPIRIT judging us all from the beginning to the end because God is not mocked, we always reap what we sow .. .
It is GODS HOLY SPIRIT HIMSELF chastening you , cannot blame this fire working on you is the devil , it is Gods Spirit of Jealousy CONSUMING US , not giving His Glory to another , but the SON ONLY , we cannot refuse the chastening of the Lord , it is for our own good , ONLY THE SON HAS THE AUTHORITY to snatch you out of that fire ...Sending those in the Body of Christ with a cup of cold water to comfort you in the proper time as we all grow in truth and grace .
We really are blessed when God gives us eyes to see and ears to hear and finally a heart to understand what the Holy Spirit is teaching us all
and both the water and the fire baptisms, being totally submerged and overcome by both , death/the watery graves and hell/ fires of hurt and loss soon follows after it , blessed is the ones whom do not have to EXPERIENCE THOSE depths fully , to be able to come to Christ in GOD Fully and perfectly whom is ALL in ALL ..
Revelation or revealing of Jesus Christ teaches us , the WORD MADE FLESH , what is happening to us and until we learn of Him and though Him Spirit of Life , we have lots to learn and experience because experience is also a good teacher/ Master ,JESUS CHRIST BY by saying and than DOING ...
Earthly wisdom does not work at all , You must be Born again to even be able to experience the heavenly Wisdom that comes down to us from ABOVE and is in us all rightly dividing the WORD OF TRUTH ... As the SPIRIT GIVES LIFE back from the dead .
Hoping to bless you all in the same ways it has blessed me , painful as this all has been , I would never want it any other way , it is what it took to make me change according to His desires and as unwilling as I was at times , makes me wonder why He didn't just give up on on me , so glad he deals with us all so perfectly and now knowing LOVE is the greatest thing ever was or is or will ever be known in our hearts that cannot be taken away , how really blessed we truly are :HeartThrob:
Now, about that lake of fire , as the lake touches the outer borders of our own earth / flesh it is to me the HOLY CITY THAT COMES DOWN TO US ALL AND DWELLS within us that burns all those things that offend in the outer court and can never enter Her gates , but her Holy call to rise up and be with Her and enter gates are ALWAYS open to all the true HOLY ONES that cannot be harmed or suffer loss these are the Fathers own that none can snatch them out of His hand /power and Wisdom has been justified by them offspring as HOLY UNTO GOD in, By and though the LORD JESUS CHRIST /THE HOLY WORD seed that grew as incorruptible .and cannot be corrupted ever .
But the fake jerusalem teaching of the false peace of the earth is Babylon and bound for destruction /fire of Gehenna correction , Matt 24 ... built on the wrong and below wisdom :sigh: and is in the fires of torment , we must learn the difference between the two wisdoms ...
and will be made white by the great tribulation . rev 7 that comes upon the whole world as a witness .
I do not think a one of us come out unscathed , except the holy one that was born within you , with great travail , trials and error .
This is only mine own experience and many have their own experiences as a witness to the Glory of God in the earth .
Jut sharing in some details as the Holy Spirit teaches us all what Gods righteousness means to us personally .
Quote from: CST on August 17, 2016, 07:10:02 PM
Yeah, I continue to be less than convinced that how you're understanding that part of Ecclesiastes is actually what it says but this probably isn't the thread to discuss that.
Their translation of 5:15 is a spectacular abuse but what really gets my goat is their use of the word 'sadly' in the note, basically acknowledging that even they can imagine it would be better if the more naturally understanding were correct. They usurp their false god with their words even while trying to defend him.
I am sorry but many will NOT have the abundant Life in Christ here in the short existance of being born flesh and blood ...
Many WILL when they rise up out of the earth though only to be taught of the HOLY SPIRIT AND WORD OF LIFE as we are learning what His righteousness in the earth is all about NOW ..
I am not so foolish to think , i have it all figured out yet , and still wait on the Lord to complete His HOLY plan .
It has always been the FATHER THAT GIVES THE INCREASE OF TRUTH AND GRACE and we all stand in hope here , unless we stumble over the WORD and get hurt ourselves and fail and fall from that same truth and grace ONLY GOD IS ABLE TO MAKE US STAND IN TRUTH BY HIS GRACE , I have experienced way to many fiery trials to say anything against anyone , no matter where they are at in the LORDS PLAN of the ages and things to come ... :HeartThrob:
Quote from: CST on August 17, 2016, 07:10:02 PM
Their translation of 5:15 is a spectacular abuse but what really gets my goat is their use of the word 'sadly' in the note, basically acknowledging that even they can imagine it would be better if the more naturally understanding were correct. They usurp their false god with their words even while trying to defend him.
Yes.. isn't it just so sad how Yahweh is unable to save so many... :laughing7: what kind of 'logic'
is thAt!? What's actually sad is any believer suffering under such a delusion.. how truly sad..
how could a loving God fry people, burn them alive...torture human beings...forever ?....I say this to King James Version fundamentalist Christians who believe in eternal punishment...its the religion of fear...God is LOVE...not hate.Jesus saves ALL, ultimately.Jesus IS the Savior of the World. :dsunny: :banana: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:
Darryl, Apparently it's justified if you don't believe in needing to go through Jesus to get to God.
mind they never actually explain how a God of justice would come up with a plan like that particularly as no one ever asks to born. So to be born in a KJV readers eyes is to be punished forever if you disagree with them......yep, that sure sounds like justice to me.
Is this on this site? I searched but couldn't find it.
https://www.godfire.net/Doctrine_of_Endless_Punishment.htm
Quote from: chester-blowfold on August 18, 2016, 02:24:15 AM
Darryl, Apparently it's justified if you don't believe in needing to go through Jesus to get to God.
mind they never actually explain how a God of justice would come up with a plan like that particularly as no one ever asks to born. So to be born in a KJV readers eyes is to be punished forever if you disagree with them......yep, that sure sounds like justice to me.
I believe in needing to get thru Jesus to get to God BUT I believe ALL will ultimately accept Christ...whether in this age or the next , and ALL will come to the Father thru Jesus !..but you're right..nobody asks to be born..faced with the choice of being tortured forever or never being born in the first place , I'm sure many people would have chosen to never being born.
Quote from: rosered on August 17, 2016, 08:53:51 PM
Quote from: CST on August 17, 2016, 02:14:06 PM
Quote from: marie glen on August 17, 2016, 12:12:39 AM
Quote from: chester-blowfold on August 14, 2016, 12:27:28 AM
MATTHEW 7: 13-14 Go into the narrow gate because the gate to HELL is wide and the road that leads to it is easy, and there are many who travel to it. But the gate to life is narrow and the way that leads to it is hard, and there are few people who find it
Any idea if this is just a miss translation?
The word translated here as "hell" is -
apōleia
ap-o'-li-a
ruin or loss, destruction
from - http://studybible.info/IGNT/MATTHEW%207:%2013-14 and http://studybible.info/strongs/G684
Quote from: Lazarus Short on August 14, 2016, 01:47:49 AM
My KJV, which I think of as the SHT (Standard Hell Text)
:laughing7: ...can't help but laugh.. :smile:
Quote from: CST on August 15, 2016, 05:40:30 PM
Question: Does Hell/Gehenna/Hades actually have a gate or is Jesus being symbolic here? Obviously most here would think he's being symbolic but it's easy enough to take the expression literally if you want to. The Revelation states that the City of New Jerusalem has a gate, which is likely also symbolic, but the Lake of Fire appears not to have one, a gate being an odd thing for a lake to have.
:Chinscratch: interesting.. something to ponder.. no gate to the lake..
"gate to hell" -- gate to "ruin, loss, destruction" is wide.. (the direction away from God..?) and narrow the gate to life.. (one way, toward God :smile: narrower.. but ultimately wide, once in the gate?.. spacious green pastures..)
You're joking! If the word in Chester's translation that is being translated 'Hell' is actually the word for 'destruction' and neither of the common New Testament 'Hell' words either Gehenna or Hades (I was only using all three because I didn't know which it was) then there's actually nothing to ponder. What I said was meaningless and what Rose said was meaningless because it was based on an incorrect understanding of the text. There's no point me talking about the Lake of Fire or Rose arguing from Jame's use of Gehenna is those terms aren't involved. I suppose I kind of knew that but was led by the translation as given.
So, that's my bad then. I missed the meaning of the primary posts. Of course it's also possible the text Chester is using is not a mistranslation but simply a correct translation of an alternate version of Matthew which he has got. Oh no, I checked. He appears to be using the New Lying Translation. I should have known they love taking unjustified liberties like that.
I believe if you learn to trust God and this IS a learning experience by all our trials of faith [a substance being the Gift of God ]
as to being exercised with , it is useless buried in our earthly bodies with out any trials of faith , hope is lost and we are lost without the HOPE being made alive within us , we just simply learn /lean on our own understanding and remain "trapped in a spiritual prison " same as those Jesus come a preached to
While in the heart of the earth for 3 days [ this HELL] and still listening to the letter of the law that kills as you continue to kill and BE KILLED ,,, Under the law of mankind[son of man ] Moses and the prophets , these were always "chosen " and sent and were killed and mistreated and treated with contempt , Although they had been sent and was messengers with warnings of the things to come upon mankind , having the Spirit of TRUTH [Spirit of prophecy in them ....
Those voices below , still under the ministration of death , that remains earthly sensual and devilish , still accusing and not made whole yet ... none were made perfect in their day without us
They are now , for sure ...
The law and prophets represent the TRUE WORD SPOKEN , in the day , Being the seven thunders whom utter their voices under the song of Moses [sent first ]
and now with the Song of the Lamb also , From Heaven[ HEAR MY SON ] last , they are in the Body of Christ [ the anointing ] HOLY SPIRIT AND FIRE
What Jesus come to do was take the fear of death away and this finished work of the cross , giving us the mind of Christ BY HIS OWN SPIRIT OF LIFE ,and HIS TESTIMONY / WORD OF LIFE which is the SPIRIT OF PROPHECY, teaching us everything !!! This body of work protects us from the evil one in our minds , by giving us His own mind , obedience to the Will of God the FATHER and the Holy Spirit is what convicts us of sin , being cast down to our earth [bodies [ Romans 6 , 7 8 . Paul expounds on this perfectly , But woe unto the earth and the devil has come down to you ... our weak flesh , what is the work of the satan , this adversary cast out of heaven ? And now working in our mortal bodies for the utter destruction of our flesh ?
To tempt us to sin , and now live lavishly , thinking we have overcome the world / darkness , but now our faith is really put to the test !! We See Jesus being sent to the wilderness by the HOLY SPIRIT and overcoming satan by the WORD OF HIS TESTIMONY ,by the SPIRIT OF GOD that that is how it is done , by the narrow path that leads to Life being able follow His exact footsteps having this working within you till the end ... But many will go into spiritual captivity , Babylon[satan's throne is ] instead and be sent to the broad path that leads to destruction that ol religious self righteous spirit , thinking you have Jesus and no one else does , and I am holy and no one else has the truth but me and we will find out FAST , NO ONE IS HOLY BUT GOD HIMSELF !! your flesh is weak and beggarly of elements and are in the consuming fire with the liars and beast and satan and so overcome !!! oh there is repentance and weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth ! Esau lost his birthright in the same manner and seeing corruption , we all get to see this corruption , the destruction of the flesh by refusing to let the HOLY SPIRIT AND FIRE BE number ONE and lead us to Life , loving God first and one another as himself , This has always been the standard that all things are judged by , this WORD AND SPIRIT judging us all from the beginning to the end because God is not mocked, we always reap what we sow .. .
It is GODS HOLY SPIRIT HIMSELF chastening you , cannot blame this fire working on you is the devil , it is Gods Spirit of Jealousy CONSUMING US , not giving His Glory to another , but the SON ONLY , we cannot refuse the chastening of the Lord , it is for our own good , ONLY THE SON HAS THE AUTHORITY to snatch you out of that fire ...Sending those in the Body of Christ with a cup of cold water to comfort you in the proper time as we all grow in truth and grace .
We really are blessed when God gives us eyes to see and ears to hear and finally a heart to understand what the Holy Spirit is teaching us all
and both the water and the fire baptisms, being totally submerged and overcome by both , death/the watery graves and hell/ fires of hurt and loss soon follows after it , blessed is the ones whom do not have to EXPERIENCE THOSE depths fully , to be able to come to Christ in GOD Fully and perfectly whom is ALL in ALL ..
Revelation or revealing of Jesus Christ teaches us , the WORD MADE FLESH , what is happening to us and until we learn of Him and though Him Spirit of Life , we have lots to learn and experience because experience is also a good teacher/ Master ,JESUS CHRIST BY by saying and than DOING ...
Earthly wisdom does not work at all , You must be Born again to even be able to experience the heavenly Wisdom that comes down to us from ABOVE and is in us all rightly dividing the WORD OF TRUTH ... As the SPIRIT GIVES LIFE back from the dead .
Hoping to bless you all in the same ways it has blessed me , painful as this all has been , I would never want it any other way , it is what it took to make me change according to His desires and as unwilling as I was at times , makes me wonder why He didn't just give up on on me , so glad he deals with us all so perfectly and now knowing LOVE is the greatest thing ever was or is or will ever be known in our hearts that cannot be taken away , how really blessed we truly are :HeartThrob:
Now, about that lake of fire , as the lake touches the outer borders of our own earth / flesh it is to me the HOLY CITY THAT COMES DOWN TO US ALL AND DWELLS within us that burns all those things that offend in the outer court and can never enter Her gates , but her Holy call to rise up and be with Her and enter gates are ALWAYS open to all the true HOLY ONES that cannot be harmed or suffer loss these are the Fathers own that none can snatch them out of His hand /power and Wisdom has been justified by them offspring as HOLY UNTO GOD in, By and though the LORD JESUS CHRIST /THE HOLY WORD seed that grew as incorruptible .and cannot be corrupted ever .
But the fake jerusalem teaching of the false peace of the earth is Babylon and bound for destruction /fire of Gehenna correction , Matt 24 ... built on the wrong and below wisdom :sigh: and is in the fires of torment , we must learn the difference between the two wisdoms ...
and will be made white by the great tribulation . rev 7 that comes upon the whole world as a witness .
I do not think a one of us come out unscathed , except the holy one that was born within you , with great travail , trials and error .
This is only mine own experience and many have their own experiences as a witness to the Glory of God in the earth .
Jut sharing in some details as the Holy Spirit teaches us all what Gods righteousness means to us personally .
Pardon, what now? Chester posted the NLT's spuriously over free form translation of Matthew, I then missed that it was a false translation and built an question around it which you then responded to, I was misled and in turn i managed to mislead you into a dead end conversation, at least based on this quote, I apologize to you Rose for unintentionally misleading you.
Quote from: rosered on August 17, 2016, 09:04:01 PM
Quote from: CST on August 17, 2016, 07:10:02 PM
Yeah, I continue to be less than convinced that how you're understanding that part of Ecclesiastes is actually what it says but this probably isn't the thread to discuss that.
Their translation of 5:15 is a spectacular abuse but what really gets my goat is their use of the word 'sadly' in the note, basically acknowledging that even they can imagine it would be better if the more naturally understanding were correct. They usurp their false god with their words even while trying to defend him.
I am sorry but many will NOT have the abundant Life in Christ here in the short existance of being born flesh and blood ...
Many WILL when they rise up out of the earth though only to be taught of the HOLY SPIRIT AND WORD OF LIFE as we are learning what His righteousness in the earth is all about NOW ..
I am not so foolish to think , i have it all figured out yet , and still wait on the Lord to complete His HOLY plan .
It has always been the FATHER THAT GIVES THE INCREASE OF TRUTH AND GRACE and we all stand in hope here , unless we stumble over the WORD and get hurt ourselves and fail and fall from that same truth and grace ONLY GOD IS ABLE TO MAKE US STAND IN TRUTH BY HIS GRACE , I have experienced way to many fiery trials to say anything against anyone , no matter where they are at in the LORDS PLAN of the ages and things to come ... :HeartThrob:
Yeah, but the NLT is clearly arguing in favor of ET with that ridiculous quote in which they state that it is 'sad' that many will not be saved.
Quote from: chester-blowfold on August 18, 2016, 02:34:45 AM
Is this on this site? I searched but couldn't find it.
https://www.godfire.net/Doctrine_of_Endless_Punishment.htm
Thanks - I printed that out, and will read later - 100+ pages!
Quote from: marie glen on August 17, 2016, 10:05:36 PM
Quote from: CST on August 17, 2016, 07:10:02 PM
Their translation of 5:15 is a spectacular abuse but what really gets my goat is their use of the word 'sadly' in the note, basically acknowledging that even they can imagine it would be better if the more naturally understanding were correct. They usurp their false god with their words even while trying to defend him.
Yes.. isn't it just so sad how Yahweh is unable to save so many... :laughing7: what kind of 'logic' is thAt!? What's actually sad is any believer suffering under such a delusion.. how truly sad..
Super sad! Though I think it's sadder that they write translations of Bibles with study notes that promote such beliefs to other people and then acknowledge that they're sad belief. How sad they some people might come to agree with them because of such sentiments. I'm not entirely sure how much the notes are reflective of the original translation decisions for the NLT, they contain a lot of stuff that it would be real hard to conclude from the text alone at that point yet surely they are already translating it to some group of theologies. Many, many of which a dubious.
Quote from: chester-blowfold on August 18, 2016, 02:24:15 AM
Darryl, Apparently it's justified if you don't believe in needing to go through Jesus to get to God.
mind they never actually explain how a God of justice would come up with a plan like that particularly as no one ever asks to born. So to be born in a KJV readers eyes is to be punished forever if you disagree with them......yep, that sure sounds like justice to me.
Not just KJV readers, ET is not the exclusive belief system of those who promote the King James Version, that's just a further branch of dogmatism.
Quote from: chester-blowfold on August 18, 2016, 02:34:45 AM
Is this on this site? I searched but couldn't find it.
https://www.godfire.net/Doctrine_of_Endless_Punishment.htm
Yes, is the answer to your question:
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/OriginandHistory.html
Quote from: CST on August 18, 2016, 06:38:40 PM
Super sad! Though I think it's sadder that they write translations of Bibles with study notes that promote such beliefs to other people and then acknowledge that they're sad belief. How sad they some people might come to agree with them because of such sentiments. I'm not entirely sure how much the notes are reflective of the original translation decisions for the NLT, they contain a lot of stuff that it would be real hard to conclude from the text alone at that point yet surely they are already translating it to some group of theologies. Many, many of which a dubious.
I'm reminded of a recent issue of the SDA magazine
Signs of the Times - the cover story was about Hell, and the writers adhered to the official Annihilationist party line. Unlike people like me, they could not deviate from that and keep their jobs. I think that's sad, and sadder still is that their prophetess, Ellen White, also wrote of people going to Hell, and that is because she cribbed from multiple sources, not all of them compatible.
Quote from: marie glen on August 17, 2016, 04:50:30 PM
I forgot about "tartarus".. deepest darkness? a state of character rather than place, is how I think of it.. thus the way it's used, as being locked into judgment..
I agree with this, and to me it gves some light on blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. Some acts are so adversarial to God they "lock" one into a judgment phase.
Perhaps it is because the subversion is so deep for someone to do certain things, there is no return from it in this age- like the reprobate mind.
Even if there were a "chamber" in sheol called "tartarus", or "the abyss" it would not be its location of features that would determine its nature- but rather the conditions of those who were contained within it, as Jude spoke of the angels who "left there proper domain" in the days of Noah.
Apparently(as I read it), it was not what they did so much as what they knowingly trampled in order to do what they did, that determined the level of containment necessary to "destroy" their works. They had become a toxic spill, a deadly bug, a corrupted nuclear reactor from which that power meant to serve, preserve and grow the community of the children of God, was instead used to consume, corrupt and defile them.
Quote from: Lazarus Short on August 18, 2016, 07:59:34 PM
Quote from: CST on August 18, 2016, 06:38:40 PM
Super sad! Though I think it's sadder that they write translations of Bibles with study notes that promote such beliefs to other people and then acknowledge that they're sad belief. How sad they some people might come to agree with them because of such sentiments. I'm not entirely sure how much the notes are reflective of the original translation decisions for the NLT, they contain a lot of stuff that it would be real hard to conclude from the text alone at that point yet surely they are already translating it to some group of theologies. Many, many of which a dubious.
I'm reminded of a recent issue of the SDA magazine Signs of the Times - the cover story was about Hell, and the writers adhered to the official Annihilationist party line. Unlike people like me, they could not deviate from that and keep their jobs. I think that's sad, and sadder still is that their prophetess, Ellen White, also wrote of people going to Hell, and that is because she cribbed from multiple sources, not all of them compatible.
I can't currently think what SDA magazine is. Is the doctrine of Hell compatible with the doctrine of Annihilation? Is that what you meant by incompatible sources? I'm not sure too many people who are prepared to defend such beliefs would really want to deviate from them and if they ever didn't surely their first thought would be, 'I have to leave my job'. The saddest thing about the doctrine of Hell though is that God declares he will judge people by their own standards, the measure you meet is the measure you receive. Surely, and paradoxically, anyone who argues for Hell, were it true, would be the first to deserve Hell. That's an argument that scares me. If God literally judged every single person by their own standards and was obligated to do that Eternal Torment would have to be at least theoretically true for some people. Fortunately, I expect that after experiencing it for a time they might could to reconsider whether anyone would actually deserve such a punishment. At which point I would expect God to judge them by their new standard. Unfortunately the counter to this is that people who genuinely don't think there's anything wrong with any sort of sin, who see the world as a complete free for all with no genuine morals, if their are any people who genuinely believe that they can get away with anything. Surely, at some point God has to execute justice to an actual standard that an acceptable number of people could agree upon. Or at least was uniformly fair even if everyone struggled to agree with it when it came to them or some of their loved ones.
CST, regarding those that think there's nothing wrong with sin:
Aren't you then looking at God as if God is man with man's thoughts and attitudes to crimes committed? And indeed what is sin and where does the line get drawn regarding the start of punishment and the end of punishment? God can be all loving and forgiving but can he be vengeful too?
Chester sin is the punishment and the guilt of dealing with it , and the error made and missing out on what is Good and and What is God .
Sin is evil and never ever good and to be hated and despised in you and in the world . :sigh:
I may be deceiving myself, but I think of God's "wrath" and "vengence" as (usually) one's very own consequences.. both individual and collective.
Missing many details I'm sure, but the overall 'story' and purpose seems to me to be very very simple. That we are learning good from evil which is also life from death.
-- That there's two directions in life - toward God, or away from God. This whole drama of life as we presently know it, is being let to run its course (thinking ability includes being able to make choices; except for the big choice, for HE chooses who is the elect/saved in this life, and who isn't, through no merit of any human.)
And the course the world is on and has been, is away from Him... therefore it can only 'crash and burn' (man's empire(s) built on sand, not the Rock... The final outcome, teaching all "in heaven and earth" that the direction "away from God" can never, ever succeed.
When I read Rev chapter 14.. and Jude 7, which (JUde 7) says Sodom and Gomorrah are the example of God's vengence of 'eternal' fire. An example. Is there flame there now? People writhing in the fire? And where did this example of gehenna(?), tartarus(?), hell(?) fire-#G4442 occur? "Set forth as an example.."
"As Sodom and Gomorrah, and the around them cities, in like with them manner... ...are set forth as an example of fire eternal 'the' penalty undergoing." Jude 7 Interlinear Greek from - http://studybible.info/IGNT/Jude%201:7
Young's Literal - "as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them, in like manner to these, having given themselves to whoredom, and gone after other flesh, have been set before -- an example, of fire age-during, justice suffering."
Then taking into account Rev chapter 14 - two classes of people?
6 And I saw another messenger flying in mid-heaven, having good news age-during to proclaim to those dwelling upon the earth, and to every nation, and tribe, and tongue, and people,
7 saying in a great voice, `Fear ye God, and give to Him glory, because come did the hour of His judgment, and bow ye before Him who did make the heaven, and the land, and sea, and fountains of waters.' [wheat to be gathered?]
8 And another messenger did follow, saying, `Fall, fall, did Babylon, the great city, ("harlot/"pornos" polluting) because of the wine of the wrath of her whoredom she hath given to all nations to drink.'
9 And a third messenger did follow them, saying in a great voice, `If any one the beast doth bow before, and his image, and doth receive a mark upon his forehead, or upon his hand,
10 he also shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, that hath been mingled unmixed in the cup of His anger, and he shall be tormented in fire and brimstone before the holy messengers, and before the Lamb,
11 and the smoke of their torment doth go up to ages of ages; and they have no rest day and night, who are bowing before the beast and his image, also if any doth receive the mark of his name. [Will they be tormented to ages of ages? even those who never heard the "good news" or heard a wrong version, hard to believe? or is this a poetic way of saying the memory will never be forgotten?]
12 Here is endurance of the saints: here [are] those keeping the commands of God, and the faith of Jesus.'
13 And I heard a voice out of the heaven saying to me, `Write: Happy are the dead who in the Lord are dying from this time!' `Yes, (saith the Spirit,) That they may rest from their labours -- and their works do follow them!' [works follow because His coming is SO close to their death]
14 And I saw, and lo, a white cloud, and upon the cloud [one] sitting like to a son of man, having upon his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle;
15 and another messenger did come forth out of the sanctuary crying in a great voice to him who is sitting upon the cloud, `Send forth thy sickle and reap, because come to thee hath the hour of reaping, because ripe hath been the harvest of the earth;'
16 and he who is sitting upon the cloud did put forth his sickle upon the earth, and the earth was reaped. [the wheat, sheep?]
17 And another messenger did come forth out of the sanctuary that [is] in the heaven, having -- he also -- a sharp sickle,
18 and another messenger did come forth out from the altar, having authority over the fire, and he called with a great cry to him having the sharp sickle, saying, `Send forth thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth, because come to perfection [ripeness] have her grapes;'
19 and the messenger did put forth his sickle to the earth, and did gather the vine of the earth, and did cast [it] to the great wine-press of the wrath of God;
20 and trodden was the wine-press outside of the city, and blood [oil?] did come forth out of the wine-press -- unto the bridles of the horses, a thousand, six hundred furlongs.
Then, chapter 15 is seven angels with seven bowls to pour out on the earth..
15:1 - And I saw another sign in the heaven, great and wonderful, seven messengers having the seven last plagues, because in these was completed the wrath of God..
16:1 - And I heard a great voice out of the sanctuary saying to the seven messengers, `Go away, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God to the earth..
I used to think Rev chapters 12 and 13 were inserts, then I realized (or imo) that 12 and 13 are an insert, 13 describing how the last verse of 12 is carried out (which is also Rev 16:14-16-the gathering to Armageddon). But just recently I've come to believe (imo:) that Rev 12,13 and 14 are an insert.
In the center of the earth is a lake of fire.. could enough thermonuclear type warfare.. release some of it upon earth?
Quote from: chester-blowfold on August 19, 2016, 03:25:50 PM
CST, regarding those that think there's nothing wrong with sin:
Aren't you then looking at God as if God is man with man's thoughts and attitudes to crimes committed? And indeed what is sin and where does the line get drawn regarding the start of punishment and the end of punishment? God can be all loving and forgiving but can he be vengeful too?
I think you may be misunderstanding me, understandably. God tells us He will judge us according to our own standards but evil people tend not to judge themselves evil, the world's biggest bullies, bigots and tyrants all believed they were justified in their beastly ways. I suspect they would come undone because they wouldn't accept the same arguments directed at them. So they are hypocrites and their standards come to nothing. Now so people those are nihilists, they claim there is no morality that people are free to do whatever they want so they could be as wicked to others as they wish as long as they acknowledge they have no right to complain when the world treats them wickedly. If anyone can hold that position without hypocrisy, and I wonder if anyone can, I'm not sure how God could condemn them for wrong doing they don't hold it as wrong by their standard. Of course, I also see how they could be praised or rewarded for any good work, I can't really see how the denial of the good wouldn't be a major hurdle to them. But I'm still not sure how God would be able to punish them.
The point here is that this isn't about people who think there's nothing wrong with sin. It's about those whose standard won't allow any concept of right/wrong, good/evil morality. And if I'm looking at God as a man with a man's attitude it's because that what 'I will judge you by your standards' suggests God will respond. It doesn't mean He's not greater just that He says He's going to use a pattern of justice we use as if He's justified in doing so because we believe it's justified.
In simple and plain speech ,
Until anyone of us realize the Kingdom of God is within you[Luke 17] and God is not very far away from anyone of us [Acts 17]
We are always looking outside and here , there and beyond for TRUTH
TRUTH is the standard everyone is judged by not everyone has been set free yet. THE WORD AND SPIRIT OF TRUTH IS SHARP as cutting us and dividing us all ... GOD is the only work that can put us back together again , just like humpty dumpty .
Humpty Dumpty sat on a wall,
Humpty Dumpty had a great fall;
All the king's horses and all the king's men
Couldn't put Humpty together again.
What no man can do , GOD can , with God all things are possible His grace is what gets things done .
God shows us examples in the everyday things we experience , nature teaches us things .
I learned a really good example with 6 baby chicks and have raised them to 8 weeks so far ..Rhode Island reds .
I want good things for all 6 of them , no harm , and work hard keeping them all clean and fed and watered and mostly loved so they will trust me completely , that I mean them no harm , but want them to produce for me some eggs in due time .
But they all have different personalities , 3 of them are named already because of their sweet and trusting characters and respond to my interaction with them .
They approach me boldly and let me work with them quickly and effectively , they come right up to me without any problems and that really pleases me to no end !!
Oh how I want them all to be the same , but I have two that are flighty and make it so much harder to deal with them and with lots of fuss and extra work , they are coming along , but this one little one , she is the littlest one and the most fearful one she grieves me the most , she is hard to catch and runs away and does not cooperate in any sense of the word .
But I love and deal with them all because of the sweet ones , making it easier to love them all , the pleasure of having them twill at me and look up and be so trusting , I go ahead and deal with the rest of them too.
I wondered if this is how God must deal with us ?
Can it be that a few , having the Christ nature in loving trust and obedience are keeping all safe in the grace of God in every generation ?
All being created in the WORD OF GOD / JESUS CHRIST , by Him and for Him and though Him do all things exist ...
These things bless us to know GODS LOVE is everything and can naturally work with ease in us all , even the fearful and defiant ones are blessed because of the few and will learn as more grace is given .
Makes me wonder often , and am not saying a bad nature cannot change , if given the patience to work in them perfectly /completely .
We cannot rush to judgment and say this or that when we ourselves are not done yet ... I love learning new things and trust God will teach us by His own WORD AND SPIRIT of Truth doing the works in us, as we learn to accept the help with great joy and ease, as it will become our very nature to trust GOD only for the well being of all :HeartThrob:
yes the eggs are important
Quote from: dajomaco on August 19, 2016, 08:37:41 PM
yes the eggs are important
:HeartThrob: So good to see you again Dajomaco
CST, yes I get where you are coming from now.
Anyone,What is sin?
According to the Bible, missing the mark. Some of that is very clearly outlined in scripture (can be easily identified and addressed). Other is a matter of individual conscience and ones' own walk with the Lord ("one eats, another doesn't eat - do it unto the Lord").
Quote from: jabcat on August 20, 2016, 12:57:42 AM
According to the Bible, missing the mark. Some of that is very clearly outlined in scripture (can be easily identified and addressed). Other is a matter of individual conscience and ones' own walk with the Lord ("one eats, another doesn't eat - do it unto the Lord").
Yes it is :thumbsup:
Quote from: chester-blowfold on August 20, 2016, 12:45:42 AM
CST, yes I get where you are coming from now.
Anyone,What is sin?
Chester Jabcat said , Sin is missing the mark , error where evil enters the heart and makes it hard , and not a heart of flesh , but like a hard cold stone , and no love for God first or your fellowman .
God loves us and has never stopped loving ,Because God IS LOVE , When any have lost our first Love . The royal law Love GOD first and your neighbour as yourself all the law and prophets hung on these two.
But it is mankind that lost its way that error on the narrow path that leads to life and peace and joy .
Jesus says in a simple truth sin enters though the heart and defiles everything holy .
This is the theme throughout the whole Bible ,in the Beginning Love God first He has never stopped loving us , we have stopped loving and even believing in Him by the hardness of sin , and all the hate and killing and lies escalating , and we HAVE THE CROSS OF JESUS CHRIST manifesting the Love of God to us by Holy Spirit conviction and Paul running a race , we see the seven churches , these are the seven eyes and spirits of God cleansing them with chastening and admonishments and rewarded if they do right and not sin , error by hearing what the Spirit is say to purify into His body the true church
We see the proof in the world , If they Loved God first and everyone as themselves their hearts would remain holy unto the Lord .
Quote from: jabcat on August 20, 2016, 12:57:42 AM
According to the Bible, missing the mark. Some of that is very clearly outlined in scripture (can be easily identified and addressed). Other is a matter of individual conscience and ones' own walk with the Lord ("one eats, another doesn't eat - do it unto the Lord").
According to the Bible? Remind me, please. It might define sin thus in the Bible but my memory is that it's a conclusion some linguists have come to by associating the word used for sin with a word used for missing the mark. I can't remember at this time where in the Bible it states that directly. I'll check even while I ask in case I get there faster, but as I don't know the relevant quote it could be quite hard
Quote from: marie glen on August 19, 2016, 06:56:56 PM
I may be deceiving myself, but I think of God's "wrath" and "vengence" as (usually) one's very own consequences.. both individual and collective.
Missing many details I'm sure, but the overall 'story' and purpose seems to me to be very very simple. That we are learning good from evil which is also life from death.
-- That there's two directions in life - toward God, or away from God. This whole drama of life as we presently know it, is being let to run its course (thinking ability includes being able to make choices; except for the big choice, for HE chooses who is the elect/saved in this life, and who isn't, through no merit of any human.)
And the course the world is on and has been, is away from Him... therefore it can only 'crash and burn' (man's empire(s) built on sand, not the Rock... The final outcome, teaching all "in heaven and earth" that the direction "away from God" can never, ever succeed.
When I read Rev chapter 14.. and Jude 7, which (JUde 7) says Sodom and Gomorrah are the example of God's vengence of 'eternal' fire. An example. Is there flame there now? People writhing in the fire? And where did this example of gehenna(?), tartarus(?), hell(?) fire-#G4442 occur? "Set forth as an example.."
"As Sodom and Gomorrah, and the around them cities, in like with them manner... ...are set forth as an example of fire eternal 'the' penalty undergoing." Jude 7 Interlinear Greek from - http://studybible.info/IGNT/Jude%201:7
Young's Literal - "as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them, in like manner to these, having given themselves to whoredom, and gone after other flesh, have been set before -- an example, of fire age-during, justice suffering."
Then taking into account Rev chapter 14 - two classes of people?
6 And I saw another messenger flying in mid-heaven, having good news age-during to proclaim to those dwelling upon the earth, and to every nation, and tribe, and tongue, and people,
7 saying in a great voice, `Fear ye God, and give to Him glory, because come did the hour of His judgment, and bow ye before Him who did make the heaven, and the land, and sea, and fountains of waters.' [wheat to be gathered?]
8 And another messenger did follow, saying, `Fall, fall, did Babylon, the great city, ("harlot/"pornos" polluting) because of the wine of the wrath of her whoredom she hath given to all nations to drink.'
9 And a third messenger did follow them, saying in a great voice, `If any one the beast doth bow before, and his image, and doth receive a mark upon his forehead, or upon his hand,
10 he also shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, that hath been mingled unmixed in the cup of His anger, and he shall be tormented in fire and brimstone before the holy messengers, and before the Lamb,
11 and the smoke of their torment doth go up to ages of ages; and they have no rest day and night, who are bowing before the beast and his image, also if any doth receive the mark of his name. [Will they be tormented to ages of ages? even those who never heard the "good news" or heard a wrong version, hard to believe? or is this a poetic way of saying the memory will never be forgotten?]
12 Here is endurance of the saints: here [are] those keeping the commands of God, and the faith of Jesus.'
13 And I heard a voice out of the heaven saying to me, `Write: Happy are the dead who in the Lord are dying from this time!' `Yes, (saith the Spirit,) That they may rest from their labours -- and their works do follow them!' [works follow because His coming is SO close to their death]
14 And I saw, and lo, a white cloud, and upon the cloud [one] sitting like to a son of man, having upon his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle;
15 and another messenger did come forth out of the sanctuary crying in a great voice to him who is sitting upon the cloud, `Send forth thy sickle and reap, because come to thee hath the hour of reaping, because ripe hath been the harvest of the earth;'
16 and he who is sitting upon the cloud did put forth his sickle upon the earth, and the earth was reaped. [the wheat, sheep?]
17 And another messenger did come forth out of the sanctuary that [is] in the heaven, having -- he also -- a sharp sickle,
18 and another messenger did come forth out from the altar, having authority over the fire, and he called with a great cry to him having the sharp sickle, saying, `Send forth thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth, because come to perfection [ripeness] have her grapes;'
19 and the messenger did put forth his sickle to the earth, and did gather the vine of the earth, and did cast [it] to the great wine-press of the wrath of God;
20 and trodden was the wine-press outside of the city, and blood [oil?] did come forth out of the wine-press -- unto the bridles of the horses, a thousand, six hundred furlongs.
Then, chapter 15 is seven angels with seven bowls to pour out on the earth..
15:1 - And I saw another sign in the heaven, great and wonderful, seven messengers having the seven last plagues, because in these was completed the wrath of God..
16:1 - And I heard a great voice out of the sanctuary saying to the seven messengers, `Go away, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God to the earth..
I used to think Rev chapters 12 and 13 were inserts, then I realized (or imo) that 12 and 13 are an insert, 13 describing how the last verse of 12 is carried out (which is also Rev 16:14-16-the gathering to Armageddon). But just recently I've come to believe (imo:) that Rev 12,13 and 14 are an insert.
In the center of the earth is a lake of fire.. could enough thermonuclear type warfare.. release some of it upon earth?
Oh, we are going there are we? Then I suppose I should too even though it's not really the proper board and I should explain what I previously alluded to about how I interpret a statement that seems to state the wicked are punished inside God's presence versus a series of statements that suggests that a big part of the punishment is excluding them from God's presence i.e. outside the city. Sorry I don't know what you mean by insert so can't gauge how much we may be saying the same things here.
But first that phrase 'forever and ever' that phrase is a problem. It's easy to just say that, that nonsense and it should be rendered 'ages of the ages' but that's nonsense too. Both words ages are equal so the cancel each other out. It may as well say, 'all the ages' for all the sense it makes. But here's the thing that may or may not have been previously observed (hence why I had intended to wait until later) the phrase 'forever' does not appear anywhere in the Book of Revelation. What I mean by that is that the phrase 'forever and ever' appears in the Book of Revelation about 12-14 times depending on the original source and the whim of the translator and that is the entire record of the term 'forever' in the book of Revelation, there's nothing that's simply described as lasting 'forever' everything that is said to last forever in the Revelation last 'forever and ever'. It's a motif and most usually it applies to God or Jesus in contexts that in any other circumstances we would take as 'forever' meaning 'without end' without question. It's only the apparent difficulties surrounding the eternal fate of man that causes hesitation.
So here's the thing. As mention by you above the Revelation here describes those who worship the Devil and the Beast, those whose name aren't written in the Book of Life and receive the mark of its name. It says they will be tormented in the presence of the angels and the Lamb, tormented day and night, smoke from their torment going up forever and ever.
At the end of the Bible, it then says that the Devil is thrown into the Lake of Fire, where the Beast and the false prophet are (having been put in earlier) and will be tormented day and night forever and ever. Same terms, it then says that all those whose names were not found in the Book of Life will be thrown into the Lake of Fire.
Because all the same terms are involved it is usually taken that both passages refer to the same thing, one looking forward to the other. But the Revelation looks forward anyway. So what if they don't? There are these contradicts, the presense of the Lamb is presented as being inside the city while those in the LoF are presented as being outside, it says the Devil and Beasts will be tormented day and night it says there will be no night in the city due to God's presence. That's what it says and that seems to be a contradiction.
So what if they're not the same, what if Rev. 14 refers to those who follow the Beast during its reign on the Earth. God executes judgment on the Beast throughout the book and those follow it seem, for the most part to be the only ones who receive injury, the beast and false prophet are not caught and cast into the lake of Fire until the very end, Satan until even later, so forever and ever obvious isn't an identical time period for all three parties.
So what happens at the end? My theory, maybe yours or others here, God punishes the Devil, Beast and false prophet for deceiving His children and thus causing them injury. Because the punishment should be just and fit the crime the exact same terms are used, day and night, forever and ever. Forever and ever also likely has a special meaning in the Revelation pertaining to the Reign of God. The term is also used in reference to the punishment of the Devil, due to his direct opposition to God's reign and attempting to set himself up in God's place.
Just a theory from one reading of the Revelation and it may be a little messy. But I like it until it's corrected by better understanding of the text and it may have at least some correct readings in it. Hope it can be followed by the reader.
Quote from: CST on August 20, 2016, 05:53:36 PM
Quote from: jabcat on August 20, 2016, 12:57:42 AM
According to the Bible, missing the mark. Some of that is very clearly outlined in scripture (can be easily identified and addressed). Other is a matter of individual conscience and ones' own walk with the Lord ("one eats, another doesn't eat - do it unto the Lord").
According to the Bible?
one example; all have "hamartánō" (a term in the Greek that comes from an archery term meaning to miss the bulls-eye/target)...missing God's will, requirement...
seems to be a pretty good general meaning, although specifics may vary according to useage and circumstance, etc...that's why i believe some things are clear and obvious (spelled out), while others seem to have more to do with conscience and each person's individual walk... :2c:
According to the Bible, "sin is lawlessness." The mark is, "believe in Jesus and love eachother." Missing the mark is to miss that. :2c:
"A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another."
:thumbsup: :dsunny: :iagree:it's all about Love. Love of God, of others..and ourselves.
Quote from: jabcat on August 20, 2016, 08:12:20 PM
Quote from: CST on August 20, 2016, 05:53:36 PM
Quote from: jabcat on August 20, 2016, 12:57:42 AM
According to the Bible, missing the mark. Some of that is very clearly outlined in scripture (can be easily identified and addressed). Other is a matter of individual conscience and ones' own walk with the Lord ("one eats, another doesn't eat - do it unto the Lord").
According to the Bible?
one example; all have "hamartánō" (a term in the Greek that comes from an archery term meaning to miss the bulls-eye/target)...missing God's will, requirement...
seems to be a pretty good general meaning, although specifics may vary according to useage and circumstance, etc...that's why i believe some things are clear and obvious (spelled out), while others seem to have more to do with conscience and each person's individual walk... :2c:
You mean the the Greek word 'hamartano' is what modern translators tend to represent with the word 'sin'? Is that what you mean? Because they may not necessarily mean the same thing just because translators have got used to using the word 'sin' for bad things people do. That would probably mean more if this was because that word 'hamartano' is also the word that the Septuagint translators used to translate the OT word we also translate as 'sin' which it may be. But that could also mean that the appearance of the word 'sin' in the text of the Bible is actually as ill-placed as the word 'Hell'.
seems like our God given sense of justice and morality comes into play here...I mean, seriously...Jesus loves the sinner...yet, according to 'Hellists',like this guy I listened to today, He will torture and burn people alive in fire ?...forever ?..and billions will end up being fried alive, forever ?..with no pity nor mercy ?..ever ?...hmmm, something's definitely not right there...even Hitler never would have done this.One of the main Biblical proofs is God's ESSENCE is love.1 John 4:8..only a hateful being could torture human beings forever...Jesus would not do such a heinous thing.
Quote from: darryl on August 23, 2016, 03:12:30 AM
seems like our God given sense of justice and morality comes into play here...I mean, seriously...Jesus loves the sinner...yet, according to 'Hellists',like this guy I listened to today, He will torture and burn people alive in fire ?...forever ?..and billions will end up being fried alive, forever ?..with no pity nor mercy ?..ever ?...hmmm, something's definitely not right there...even Hitler never would have done this.One of the main Biblical proofs is God's ESSENCE is love.1 John 4:8..only a hateful being could torture human beings forever...Jesus would not do such a heinous thing.
In fact, speaking through His prophet, God states (responding to the pagan practices of His people, passing their children through the fire) that such a thing - burning humans alive - had never entered His mind:
"They have built also the high places of
Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto
Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind..." Jeremiah 19:5 KJV
The Damnationists must have missed that verse.
Not literally, of course, God knows all and is omniscient, all thoughts all humans might have enter His mind at some point. It's an idiom, I wonder if it's actually an idiom in Hebrew or an idiom all our translators put there because of how well it translates the spirit of what that verse says.
Again, that expression. '"Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, says the Lord GOD."' (Ezekiel 18:30 RSV)
Not quite sure how that fits in the incredibly mercy heavy passage it's found in, it's a worrying statement that has the unnerving connotation. I you think it's OK to do such things then it's OK for me to see to it you receive the same such things in punishment. It's hard to believe it could actually mean that especially in context. But it sounds very like it does.
Quote from: Lazarus Short on August 23, 2016, 06:29:04 AM
Quote from: darryl on August 23, 2016, 03:12:30 AM
seems like our God given sense of justice and morality comes into play here...I mean, seriously...Jesus loves the sinner...yet, according to 'Hellists',like this guy I listened to today, He will torture and burn people alive in fire ?...forever ?..and billions will end up being fried alive, forever ?..with no pity nor mercy ?..ever ?...hmmm, something's definitely not right there...even Hitler never would have done this.One of the main Biblical proofs is God's ESSENCE is love.1 John 4:8..only a hateful being could torture human beings forever...Jesus would not do such a heinous thing.
In fact, speaking through His prophet, God states (responding to the pagan practices of His people, passing their children through the fire) that such a thing - burning humans alive - had never entered His mind:
"They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind..." Jeremiah 19:5 KJV
The Damnationists must have missed that verse.
For me it is as easy as saying , IF YOU LOVED GOD FIRST and foremost , you would let GODS DESIRE RULE over your heart completely and never judge anything , but rest easy, " HE HAS THIS" ... knowing His judgment is perfect in every way and for everyone . Letting go and letting God do His perfect work .
and If you loved everyone like you do yourself , you would never want nothing but Gods mercy on them, same as you want Him to show mercy on you , even if you mess up and need to be corrected , when you get out of line sometimes ..
But instead we see the power abused and the WORD OF GOD marred and made unrecognizable to anyone , looking for Jesus Christ ...
The true worshippers , worship in the SPIRIT AND TRUTH and it is a LIVING THING we are following ..
JESUS showed tWo perfect examples , when standing before his accusers and asking "What is truth ?" He went totally silent , no fuel , no fire ..
But when a heart seeking the Father come asking " What is truth ?" How do we follow Truth , HE SAID I AM THE WAY THE TRUTH AND LIFE John 14
5"Lord," said Thomas, "we do not know where You are going, so how can we know the way?"
6Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
7If you had known Me, you would know My Father as well.
From now, you do know Him and have seen Him."...
and many more proofs , We can believe in and seek after ,leaving death behind us , As ,"Get behind me ,satan!" . ..
Rose, I agree that if you loved everyone as yourself you would want them to receive God's mercy. You would certainly eschew the idea of them suffering in some sort of Hell for all eternity as easily as you eschew it for yourself. Of course you eschew it for yourself as easily for a moment as eternity and that it's always helpful. Everyone also tend to want there own way while loving themselves and that may not always be the best idea at the time... or ever depending on the circumstances. It would be nice if everyone could have everything they want which tread on the toes of all the things everyone else wants. In principle love can hope for that, it's the practicalities that stop it being possible.
But but clarity the question 'What is truth?' was asked by Pilate to Jesus in attempting to find as many reasons as he could to pardon Jesus, so we're led to believe but the Jews, who he was rather too scared of as I understand, wouldn't let him. Was Jesus silent? We don't know for sure, all we know is that whatever happened immediately after that question was asked John seems not to record, or else we are meant to understand that Pilate was asking the question rhetorically and was not actually expecting Jesus to answer it.
But when it comes to saying 'If you loved God first and foremost, you would let God's desire rule over your heart completely', really? So what of our desires then? What is the point of God creating emotional, desiring beings if He's not actually interested in any of them because they're all and always wicked? That seems more than a little pointless.
You have to really think about what God's desires actually are before making sweeping statements like that, and how much our own desires may actually have a part in them because He's our Father in some sort of real sense and we are His children in some sort of real sense and we are actually free beings in some real sense and these aren't just empty words in the Bible. God no doubt has many desires our welfare and salvation being very much the top, us not injuring each other being another. Us being mindless slaves with no desires of our own except the desire to reject them for God? Doesn't sound likely if He'd wanted those sorts of beings He could have made them instead.
Remember ET and ED advocates believe that God has desires too, they believe that that desire demands that He permanently exclude from His presence whosoever can't conform themselves to fulfilling those desires in order that He can a least fulfill them on the smaller scale.
God's desires are certainly something we should strive to fulfill because so many of them are desires for our good. But we have to be careful we don't make sweeping conclusions about how far God's desire for us extends lest we start profaning His good creation.
Quote from: Lazarus Short on August 23, 2016, 06:29:04 AM
Quote from: darryl on August 23, 2016, 03:12:30 AM
seems like our God given sense of justice and morality comes into play here...I mean, seriously...Jesus loves the sinner...yet, according to 'Hellists',like this guy I listened to today, He will torture and burn people alive in fire ?...forever ?..and billions will end up being fried alive, forever ?..with no pity nor mercy ?..ever ?...hmmm, something's definitely not right there...even Hitler never would have done this.One of the main Biblical proofs is God's ESSENCE is love.1 John 4:8..only a hateful being could torture human beings forever...Jesus would not do such a heinous thing.
In fact, speaking through His prophet, God states (responding to the pagan practices of His people, passing their children through the fire) that such a thing - burning humans alive - had never entered His mind:
"They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind..." Jeremiah 19:5 KJV
The Damnationists must have missed that verse.
yup !..they indeed do ignore that passage !...they also ignore-
Jeremiah 7:31,32 They have built the high places of Topheth in the Valley of Ben Hinnom to burn their sons and daughters in the fire--something I did not command, nor did it enter my mind.
Jeremiah 32:35 And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.
Leviticus 18:21 And you shall not let any of your seed pass through the fire to Molech, ...
2 Kings 17:17 They sacrificed their sons and daughters in the fire. They practiced divination and sought omens and sold themselves to do evil in the eyes of the LORD, arousing his anger.
these passages should settle it once and for all...God does not like the concept, the idea of, burning human beings alive in fire.So, obviously, that is not something that God will do. However. will all this overwhelming evidence convince most 'hellators' ?...not in my experience. They seem to want to hold onto the belief that God torments people forever.
And also, it's notewothy that all references to the valley are translated as hell in the NT, but never as hell in the OT.
Quote from: Lazarus Short on August 23, 2016, 06:29:04 AM
Quote from: darryl on August 23, 2016, 03:12:30 AM
seems like our God given sense of justice and morality comes into play here...I mean, seriously...Jesus loves the sinner...yet, according to 'Hellists',like this guy I listened to today, He will torture and burn people alive in fire ?...forever ?..and billions will end up being fried alive, forever ?..with no pity nor mercy ?..ever ?...hmmm, something's definitely not right there...even Hitler never would have done this.One of the main Biblical proofs is God's ESSENCE is love.1 John 4:8..only a hateful being could torture human beings forever...Jesus would not do such a heinous thing.
In fact, speaking through His prophet, God states (responding to the pagan practices of His people, passing their children through the fire) that such a thing - burning humans alive - had never entered His mind:
"They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind..." Jeremiah 19:5 KJV
The Damnationists must have missed that verse.
:thumbsup: :thumbsup:
Quote from: CST on August 23, 2016, 02:10:09 PM
Not literally, of course, God knows all and is omniscient, all thoughts all humans might have enter His mind at some point. It's an idiom, I wonder if it's actually an idiom in Hebrew or an idiom all our translators put there because of how well it translates the spirit of what that verse says.
Again, that expression. '"Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, says the Lord GOD."' (Ezekiel 18:30 RSV)
Not quite sure how that fits...
In all the warnings of the prophets to Israel, fiery judgment always occurred upon earth, during this life..
"once more will I shake the earth.." Haggai 2:6 & Hebews 12:26
"the elements will melt with a burning heat" - from 2 Peter 3 (man's split atom? - from Obadiah 15 - "For near [is] the day of Jehovah, on all the nations, As thou hast done, it is done to thee,
Thy deed doth turn back on thine own head."
"when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, and in flaming fire.." - from 2 Thess 1:7,8
Quote from: darryl on August 24, 2016, 12:56:11 AM
yup !..they indeed do ignore that passage !...they also ignore-
Jeremiah 7:31,32 They have built the high places of Topheth in the Valley of Ben Hinnom to burn their sons and daughters in the fire--something I did not command, nor did it enter my mind.
Jeremiah 32:35 And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.
Leviticus 18:21 And you shall not let any of your seed pass through the fire to Molech, ...
2 Kings 17:17 They sacrificed their sons and daughters in the fire. They practiced divination and sought omens and sold themselves to do evil in the eyes of the LORD, arousing his anger.
these passages should settle it once and for all...God does not like the concept, the idea of, burning human beings alive in fire.So, obviously, that is not something that God will do. However. will all this overwhelming evidence convince most 'hellators' ?...not in my experience. They seem to want to hold onto the belief that God torments people forever.
..."these passages should settle it once and for all" - :iagree: also with "God is love" also affirming! :smile:
Quote from: Seth on August 24, 2016, 01:02:56 AM
And also, it's notewothy that all references to the valley are translated as hell in the NT, but never as hell in the OT.
A-men!!
Quote from: marie glen on August 24, 2016, 07:08:45 PM
Quote from: CST on August 23, 2016, 02:10:09 PM
Not literally, of course, God knows all and is omniscient, all thoughts all humans might have enter His mind at some point. It's an idiom, I wonder if it's actually an idiom in Hebrew or an idiom all our translators put there because of how well it translates the spirit of what that verse says.
Again, that expression. '"Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, says the Lord GOD."' (Ezekiel 18:30 RSV)
Not quite sure how that fits...
In all the warnings of the prophets to Israel, fiery judgment always occurred upon earth, during this life..
"once more will I shake the earth.." Haggai 2:6 & Hebews 12:26
"the elements will melt with a burning heat" - from 2 Peter 3 (man's split atom? - from Obadiah 15 - "For near [is] the day of Jehovah, on all the nations, As thou hast done, it is done to thee, Thy deed doth turn back on thine own head."
"when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, and in flaming fire.." - from 2 Thess 1:7,8
Yeah, I should remind you that God doesn't change. And since He doesn't change I'm not sure we should expect His judgements and methods of judgement to change much in this world or the next.
'The measure you give is the measure you shall receive'
Consider.
The elements(stoicheion) in 2 Peter 3 are not necessarily speaking of wood and dirt and rocks and men. "Stoicheion" is the same word in Hebrew 5 "the elementary principles of the oracles of God" and in Col 2
"See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the elemental spiritual forces(stoicheion) of this world rather than on Christ.
Just like the flood did not destroy the earth but rather brought an end to the kingdoms of the world in that time, the coming of Jesus in flaming fire with His holy angels(2 Thess somewhere) will burn away the veils, the principalities and powers, the systems of this world. The stoicheion (elements/elementary principles) will be consumed by intense heat.
We look for a "new heavens and a new earth"(2 Pet 3) refers to the "period of the restoration of all things spoken of by all the prophets from aionian times" (Acts 3)
"Upon this mountain I will remove the covering that veils all the people(nations, goyim)"(Isaiah 25)- Think about it!
"You have come to Mt Zion, the heavenly Jerusalem, unto myriads of angels and the spirits of righteous men made perfect, to the general assembly of the firstborn registered in heaven...." Heb 12
This speaks of the "revelation of the children of God"(Rom 8) who will set the whole creation free from "futility"- the elementary principles of this world/age- the stoicheion. The intense heat that will consume it is the fire of His presence, the fire in His eyes, the fire in the midst of "ten thousands of ten-thousands of His godly ones" - the aforementioned heavenly Jerusalem, the city of God coming down out of the heavenly realms to manifest among men as Mt Zion. He makes His angels spirits , His ministers flames of fire.
"Come let us go to the mountain of the Lord, to learn His ways and behold His beauty"(Micah and Isaiah somewhere)
The creation will be set free into the "glorious liberty of the children of God during the "period of the restoration of all things"- the whole world will flow towards the heavenly Jerusalem and the rivers will flow out of her.
The Lord Jesus -"Whom the heavens must receive until the period of the restoration of all things spoken of by all the prophets since the world began"(since aionian times) will return in the midst of the clouds(clouds of witnesses) and the "veil of the heavens" (veil between the glory of God and the mundanity of earth) will be rolled back like a scroll and the ark of the covenant(Christ crucified) will appear in the heavens- the sign of the son of man. Every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him.
Rejoice for thy Light has come and the glory of the Lord has risen upon you :o)
I do believe this is how we differ in our faith ..
I believe God is restoring now because His kingdom is not of this world
waiting for this whole world to change at once is possible with God
But everyone will be changed in a twinkling of an eye , and please consider that if our earthly bodies were the judgement and what was considered ''vanity '' what was done in the body of death , did any life come forth and grow in truth and grace bearing fruit to God ?
GOD SAYS SOME WILL AS HE APPOINTED IT TO HAPPEN from the foundation of this world.
the fruitness pursuit of trying to make it perfect and was never considered of God to be anything but '' short lived '' only to come to nothing ..destroyed
It was always the mind / heart of all mankind that was to be changed from the serpent being worldly wisdom ,, for me I believe they are different after the corruption they were set into all there time in the world has come to an end
Because all the GLORY WAS GODS to begin with and those whom share in this glory are being honored as such with Christ ,
but those whom will be ashamed for not being a partaker with Him , have nothing as all was vanity and a worthless attempt of self glory
Thinking of Daniel 12 as the end of and Revelations explaining it , because every generation gets a seed planted , being the testimony of Jesus Christ being the Spirit of prophecy by God , but not all ''take root '' in the earth , only the meek inherit it .. that good ground being the Lords body to be blessed .
We sure can see the LIGHT intensifying the great division of what is evil is becoming even more violent and vile as it becomes exposed by knowledge increasing and what is good and Holy and pure
when the knowledge ends and it will , all will KNOW GOD from the least to the greatest , and bearing the image of what they become , I have considered it as LOVE/GOD will still be the only thing that made the difference
and how can evil prove Gods WORD as much as the good and perfect ?, by making HIS WORD AND SPIRIT OF TRUTH ALWAYS EXCELLENT and worthy for any one at any time and any age to be feared and reverend and taken to heart fully .
There is a test an hour of trial that comes upon the whole world and it is that mark of the beast / that serpent and earthly wisdom, Jesus overcome THE EVIL ONE , in the wilderness, by the WORD OF GOD and it applies to all generations in their hour , JESUS gave us the witness and authority to overcome by HIS TESTIMONY that is found in those whom also will overcome the world by Him being in you as greater than in the world
one hour beast Rev17 The Mystery Explained
...11The beast that was, and now is not, is himself an eighth king. He belongs to the other seven and is going into destruction. 12The ten horns you saw are ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but will receive one hour of authority as kings, along with the beast. 13 These kings have one purpose: to yield their power and authority to the beast....
Being a lousy writer and having poor speech , but it is all I can do to keep on trying , because I do love God and KNOW he loves us , sending Jesus Christ to prove it , so we can have now His peace and joy as the world is failing and Babylon is falling and not be in fear of the last enemy being death itself and than meeting our Maker to sort it all out for us , If I will be ashamed it was because I believed a lie and if not ashamed because I believed the Living God ...
I do believe it will be the most truest awakening for all of us , yet to experience.
I believe that only we who hav discipled to Jesus Christ will b changed in a moment in a twinkling of an eye. Those are the first fruits. All the rest hav yet to be reconciled. They will b....but as yet r not "in Christ". Oddly enough... that is what the scriptures say.
Opinions dont matter. Jesus spoke of aionion oyr and aionion kolassis. His words work fine for me.
IMO all the rest of this "there is no judgement/judgement to come is just wishy washy new age drivel.
I can appreciate the challenges of scripture John , I don't think I am saying there is no judgment , most certainly is upon all the kings of the earth !
Quote from: eaglesway on September 10, 2016, 03:20:00 AM
I believe that only we who hav discipled to Jesus Christ will b changed in a moment in a twinkling of an eye. Those are the first fruits. All the rest hav yet to be reconciled. They will b....but as yet r not "in Christ". Oddly enough... that is what the scriptures say.
Opinions dont matter. Jesus spoke of aionion oyr and aionion kolassis. His words work fine for me.
IMO all the rest of this "there is no judgement/judgement to come is just wishy washy new age drivel.
and oddly enough that is exactly what they said when JESUS COME the first time , to show them the way , they the stubborn and stiff necked would not bow down and accept Jesus word in themselves , same Babylon kings of the earth that were cut off and house left desolate and will not see the Lord again till they say , Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord . Is this not what we are supposed to do now ? shout it from the rooftops ?
But those seeked to KILL JESUS CHRIST! and still do to this DAY ..
I believe they are judged the moment they arrive , because the 1000 year reign is the DAY of the Lord being of Adam 930 years that all die in being the first death to overcome, that old man of sin & Babylon 70 years of captivity is the second death that will not experience the harm [few in number ] and those to be set free from and the rest will be corrected sternly .
I know many think they will lie in wait in their graves that old fashioned teaching of men for 1000 years , but those failed the test
Rev 20 Satan Cast into the Lake of Fire
6Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection![IN ADAM ALL DIE ] in the Day you eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil , you shall surly die , it that not the deadly wound that was healed in that beast , is this not the corruptible image of mankind all wonder after calling it god that man of sin ? Revelation 13:14
Because of the signs it was given to perform on behalf of the first beast, it deceived those who dwell on the earth, telling them to make an image to the beast that had been
wounded by the sword and yet had lived.
the SWORD OF THE SPIRIT IS THE WORD OF TRUTH
2 Thess 2The Man of Lawlessness
...2not to be easily disconcerted or alarmed by any spirit or message or letter presuming to be from us and alleging that the day of the Lord has already come. Just like JESUS IS ALWAYS being the resurrection and Life is always[ Children of the DAY ] ,so is the day of the Lord being that He comes like a thief in the night
HIS WORD IS CONSTANT AND ETERNAL
3Let no one deceive you in any way, for it will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness (the son of destruction) is revealed. 4He will oppose and exalt himself above every so-called god or object of worship. So he will seat himself in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God....
mankind's heart is desperately wicked above all else and who can know it ? is this not the very spiritual pride of Babylons ways exalting itself ! being the KING OF PRIDE and over all the children of pride , Revelation is the DAY OF THE LORD explained and poured out on Babylon , haughty men thinking they are supreme beings and super righteous , not even knowing how poor and blinded by satan's power being miserable and wretched that they truly are
But those whom are kept by the Lords power are not harmed by the sting of death there is no more flesh to destroy , they are walking and talking spiritual beings born of GOD and doing those same greater works because JESUS WENT TO THE FATHER and sits at His right hand of power .
young men you are strong and the WORD OF GOD abides/lives in you and You have overcome the evil ONE ! , they are battle warriors with Christ army now , fathers you have known from the beginning . 1 John 2 ...
The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him for a thousand years.[as a DAY UNTO THE LORD ]
7 When the thousand years are complete,
Satan will be released from his prison,
8and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to assemble them for battle.
Their number is like the sand of the seashore.... 9And they marched across
the broad expanse of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. But fire came down from heaven and consumed them. Touch not my anointed !! his judgements are in the earth ... Psalm 105
2 PETER 3
The Day of the Lord...7And
by that same word, the present heavens and earth a
re reserved for fire,
kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.
8
Beloved, do not let this one thing escape your notice:
With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. 9The Lord is not slow to fulfill His promise as some understand slowness,
but is patient with you,
not wanting anyone to perish,
but everyone to come to repentance....1Since everything will be dissolved in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to conduct yourselves in holiness and godliness
12as you anticipate and hasten the coming of the day of God, when the heavens will be dissolved by fire and the elements will melt in the heat. 13But in keeping with God's promise, we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth,
where righteousness dwells.Final Exhortations
14Therefore, beloved, as you anticipate these things,
make every effort to be found at peace with Him, without spot or blemish.
15
Consider also that our Lord's patience brings salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom God gave him. 16He writes this way in all his letters, speaking in them about such matters.
Some parts of his letters are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.17Therefore, beloved, since you already know these things, be on your guard not to
be carried away by the error of the lawless and fall from your secure standing. 18But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory both now and to the day of eternity.
Those ungodly men are the Babylon kings of the earth and will be harmed by the second death , the day of the Lord is to destroy Babylons POWER IN ONE HOUR ...
10In fear of her torment, they will stand at a distance and cry out: "Woe, woe to the great city, the mighty city of Babylon! For in a single hour your judgment has come."
I am for one glad for Babylon to be destroyed and evil to be no more and satan's power totally diminished ....
I do fear the Lord and has been painful to deal with and yet there is peace and joy in the Lord in the times of refreshing
but the day is here I am afraid where brother will be against brother Matt 10 and if we live by the sword we shall also die by it
I DO BELIEVE THE JUDGMENT IS HERE IN THE EARTH and escalating rapidly His fiery Law Isaiah 24 , 25 we all are humbled greatly .
Just hoping this clarifies some as to why I believe the way I do without offending anyone .
I am not sure what you are saying about judgement. I was not just responding to you, but to the general tone of what is going on around the forum :o)
However, you did say everyone will be changed in a moment in a twinkling of an eye.
This is not what the scripture says to me. When I read it, it is for believers/disciples of Christ alone, at the last trumpet, at the second coming of the Lord- and speaks only of the first resurrection.
The idea that anyone who warns against the wrath to come is a Pharisee is categorizing Jesus, the prophets and all the apostles as Pharisees as well, because they all warn of the chastisements of God upon His children in house(it is time for judgment to begin at the house of God with the elders at Jerusalem; Now the axe is laid to the root of the trees; if anyman abide not in me he will wither up, be cutoff and be cast into the fire)
and upon the world at large.
Quote from: eaglesway on August 21, 2016, 09:04:09 AM
"A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another."
Where is this from?
I think some of us have been entrapped within man made religion which emphasizes 'wrath' and 'judgment' for years..when we come into the wonderful light and bathe in the love of UR we may sound a little 'new agey' in that we think of and emphasize love..whereas before we emphasized 'judgement' ..all I know is 'love' is the hardest thing to practice..it's easy and 'natural' to judge others..it's way harder to love.
"it's easy and natural to judge exactly! the tokogae in the natural man......that man thought would make him like God........
Jesus tasted death for all men.when He come in flesh....and give man a taste' of life/token..of the new spirit man to come.TOL
Quote from: eaglesway on September 10, 2016, 06:16:46 AM
I am not sure what you are saying about judgement. I was not just responding to you, but to the general tone of what is going on around the forum :o)
However, you did say everyone will be changed in a moment in a twinkling of an eye.
This is not what the scripture says to me. When I read it, it is for believers/disciples of Christ alone, at the last trumpet, at the second coming of the Lord- and speaks only of the first resurrection.
The idea that anyone who warns against the wrath to come is a Pharisee is categorizing Jesus, the prophets and all the apostles as Pharisees as well, because they all warn of the chastisements of God upon His children in house(it is time for judgment to begin at the house of God with the elders at Jerusalem; Now the axe is laid to the root of the trees; if anyman abide not in me he will wither up, be cutoff and be cast into the fire)
and upon the world at large.
Again you have misunderstood what I was meaning ,
Not all pharisees John , ONLY the ones who resisted ''change '' Jesus had come as a human being born under the law of wrath by a woman [true church/body of Christ that has always been by Gods anointing from the beginning for His own purpose saved though child bearing/living spiritual offspring ]
,but was conceived by the Holy Spirit of a virgin /pure vessel , untouched by error /sin where there is no law their is no transgression , but by the faithful promise of God though Abraham's seed as heirs as the sons of God .. [ Romans 4]
And because he was human as they were , a mere man and saw him only as a troublemaker , speaking unlawful things to them .
They loved their position and power they had over the people and used that knowledge of God against them , never seeing themselves as ''in sin /error'' or missing the mark ,
they stopped their ears from hearing the Lord and become offended desiring to quench the Spirit in Christ and found themselves desolate by the law of sin and death they chose over the law of Life and Liberty being the sons of God , they had no place for His Word in them , leaving them empty and a burning branch , they were satisfied with their own understanding and traditions of men .
They choose Moses as their judge , and under that law , they die under the law by two or 3 witnesses , can they rise again ? it depends on how we see what is spirit is Spirit and what is flesh is flesh , their own flesh did not see GOD as some do get too , some saw God while being human beings , Saul to Paul is the prime example of that . a new name and new nature born of the promise as a son of God , Job is another example He said in my flesh I will see God[Job 19] and he did , it was a spiritual encounter in the days of his flesh .
That is all I meant , but should have explained it as such ... We are all born under the same law of sin and death in Adam , none are exempt from that .but though the veil that is the Lord Jesus Christ and His flesh , would all the promises come and be fulfilled though both the law of sin and death sons of mankind and the Law of Life and Liberty as sons of God bearing both images would all things be fulfilled , being both the Lord of the dead and Living .
Its all about Jesus Christ and what He is doing now as He done than and will always do the perfect work in all of His creation , what was done in secret and hidden for the ages has now been openly displayed and given to His children as the Light is shining in the brightness of the noon day and can see God in our flesh , when given eyes to see and ears to hear and heart to understand .
The pure in heart shall see GOD in all His glory and majesty Matt 5 , It sure is TRUE , the process is judgment and has always been divided from the beginning[ Gen 1] , what is flesh is flesh and what is Spirit is spirit and the confusion has always been by the mixing of the two .
This is the hardest part to press though , a lot of tearing down and loss and ever so painful for both the woman / Church , kept from satan presence , and fed in the wilderness and barren land and the child, to be birthing the sons of God , they are prey in the world of iniquity .Rev 12
The first fruits of the HOLY SPIRIT are those whom held the Holy witness in themselves long ago and were mistreated and hated and tortured are those whom by faith Hebrews 11 , died without the promises being fulfilled in them fully , Till Jesus Christ come in the fulness of time , as the firstborn SON OF GOD to come though Victorious over the beast /dragon and take death from him forever setting those captives free and death and those whom hold that covenant with death will be undone as they shall be trampled as they trampled down the innocent Isaiah 28
These are the Head and authority , [John 20]and the soudariona head cloth (for the dead). that was upon His head, not lying with the linen cloths, but having
been folded up in a place by itself. when Christ rose from the dead ,,, As the head and Body is being formed even now to His feet and teaching us all about the good news of the gospel of Jesus Christ , being the very Spirit of prophecy and the fulfilling of all things in Christ /GODS WORD as the Heavenly witness and the Spirit of truth with Him ...
I have prayed about this , and was given this in thoughts this morning , as it troubled me all night .
I fear the Lord more than what will happen to me in this world finally
Quote from: darryl on September 10, 2016, 02:27:39 PM
I think some of us have been entrapped within man made religion which emphasizes 'wrath' and 'judgment' for years..when we come into the wonderful light and bathe in the love of UR we may sound a little 'new agey' in that we think of and emphasize love..whereas before we emphasized 'judgement' ..all I know is 'love' is the hardest thing to practice..it's easy and 'natural' to judge others..it's way harder to love.
Amen , It is hard to learn to Love and be as God wants us to be , removing those offensive things and cutting them off and away from us , we can never ever do this in our own powers , prayer brother lots and lots of prayers , ask the Lord for His help constantly , stay needy and innocent , don't try to take vengeance , it will only worsen the situation
We cannot ever excuse ourselves and hold others in contempt
I never in a billion years thought GOD would remove the anger and count any kind of persecutions as joy I am having in the world in general , some of the same old trials of faith and failing them over and over again ,,,
for so many years I just cried like a baby in tears asking God for forgiveness and learning to pray for the enemies , I was an enemy to them !
the same as they were an enemy to me ! and both of us were enemies of the Cross of Christ HE DIED , because BOTH our bad natures warring against each other , when satan rises against satan the house cannot stand but divides , going back to the old law under the ministration of death eye for eye and tooth for tooth and making blood spilling sacrifices of exacting jots and tittles of the law . Death is the result of sin and error , we are to press on go forth and rise up and sin no more unless a worse thing comes upon us ...
learning that for real now ..
Faith I thought I had , but when ''put to the test'' I had none , oh I was one of little faith ... faith is a hard thing to understand as I am carnal , it is like you can have it and if you never use it it gets old and weak useless when you need it , it dont work ,, , but when it is exercised and used and put out there , even Abraham is a great example , it was counted for him as righteousness , his act of going to kill his son for God ,
putting God above all things was the noble act and proving faith , but it was a carnal thing to literally kill his son and shed his blood over an alter of stones and wood made with hands .. He was literal in that sense and carnal in thinking it pleases God , but after reading God did not want sacrifices and offerings , BUT OBEDIENCE , that made me think different as to why blood was always offered and the parallel of the LORD JESUS CHRIST the son of GOD being made the perfect lamb and His blood shed sacrifice for all and for all times .
Jesus was not killed by anyone , but they sure did desire to kill Him , same as hate , I went to a church years ago whom was ''hung on that tree '' pun , hung up on saying the Jews killed Jesus , but they never read when Jesus laid down His life willingly and for this purpose did He come , to make the open show of what was hidden for all those 10000's of years and generations , this changes your mind , when you read His word constantly ,and find new things with more light and knowledge of Him , you don't get hung up on one train of thought as it is the HOLY SPIRIT teaching you by quickening His word in your heart making it live in you ... and no one can change your mind , only God can help us grow in truth and grace ..
To God be all the glory
Quote from: sheila on September 10, 2016, 04:34:32 PM
"it's easy and natural to judge exactly! the tokogae in the natural man......that man thought would make him like God........
Jesus tasted death for all men.when He come in flesh....and give man a taste' of life/token..of the new spirit man to come.TOL
Yes ! ,the Spirit gives LIFE , many go back and turn to that law of death , as Moses is that judge and to believe Him , he never got to see the promised land while in the days of his flesh
.The Witness of Scripture
...45Do not think that I will accuse you before the Father.
Y
our accuser is Moses,
in whom you have put your hope. 46If you
had believed Moses, you would believe Me,
because he wrote about Me. 47But since you do not believe what he wrote,
how will you believe what I say?"...How will they hear what the Spirit is saying ?
John 6 Many Disciples Turn Back
...62 Then what will happen if you see the Son of Man
ascend to where He was before?
63
The Spirit gives life; the flesh profits nothing.
The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life. 64 However, there are some of you who do not believe." (For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray Him.)...
Isaiah 26:9 At night my soul longs for You, Indeed, my spirit within me seeks You diligently; For when the earth experiences Your judgments The inhabitants of the world learn righteousness.
Psalm 98
7 Let the sea roar and all it contains;
The world and those who dwell in it.
8 Let the rivers clap their hands,
Let the mountains sing together for joy
9 Before the LORD, for He is coming to judge the earth;
He will judge the world with righteousness
And the peoples with equity.
Why should we be afraid of judgment? Most on this site are here because we used to think judgement had only two outcomes, heaven or hell, and it is a big relief to get rid of that idea. But these verses show what judgement is and what the outcome really is which is something really good.
Should we be a little bit afraid, just not scared to death about coming judgement? And should we be afraid of being a little bit new agey or what? Or are we just talking about all those evil people out there getting away with all kinds of stuff?
For me I am not afraid of what the Father is going to do to me because I trust Him that it will be good. I don't understand the warnings about judgement like I'm supposed to clean up my act a little more and walk in fear at least a little. At the same time I would be afraid if I was trying to get away with stealing or sneaking off with some cutie. So maybe that's the answer. Fear to do evil. And if we do, be happy for God's discipline and judgement.
Look here:
Isaiah 1:17 Seek judgment, make happy the oppressed, Judge the fatherless, strive [for] the widow.
Judgment mustn't always be such hard sentences. And sometimes also an innocent person is judged, as by the above bible verse. Justice means that everyone gets his right. And in Christ who nailed the law to the cross, everyone has a right to live and a right to go to God. Human rights, for example, have been a very righteous invention and I believe were inspired by God.
all mankind will rejoice in His judgement.when He perfects the spirit of man in understanding and 'justness" It'll be kind of a
'WOW!" thing..to those who have judged after the appearance of the flesh.[see and hear what they had not seen nor heard]
and yes,everybody has a right to live and return unto God..because of Jesus Christ.that RIGHTeousness is a free gift because
of what HE DID..as the atonement Lamb and to take away all their sin.
it's always better to fall into the hands of God instead of men. I'd choose it any day.
Quote from: bushy on September 10, 2016, 09:38:11 PM
Isaiah 26:9 At night my soul longs for You, Indeed, my spirit within me seeks You diligently; For when the earth experiences Your judgments The inhabitants of the world learn righteousness.
Psalm 98
7 Let the sea roar and all it contains;
The world and those who dwell in it.
8 Let the rivers clap their hands,
Let the mountains sing together for joy
9 Before the LORD, for He is coming to judge the earth;
He will judge the world with righteousness
And the peoples with equity.
Why should we be afraid of judgment? Most on this site are here because we used to think judgement had only two outcomes, heaven or hell, and it is a big relief to get rid of that idea. But these verses show what judgement is and what the outcome really is which is something really good.
Should we be a little bit afraid, just not scared to death about coming judgement? And should we be afraid of being a little bit new agey or what? Or are we just talking about all those evil people out there getting away with all kinds of stuff?
For me I am not afraid of what the Father is going to do to me because I trust Him that it will be good. I don't understand the warnings about judgement like I'm supposed to clean up my act a little more and walk in fear at least a little. At the same time I would be afraid if I was trying to get away with stealing or sneaking off with some cutie. So maybe that's the answer. Fear to do evil. And if we do, be happy for God's discipline and judgement.
:thumbsup: YES fear of the Lord is in reverence and respect and awe !!
To hate evil is a good thing indeed , well said Bushy ,
But the catch is the carnal do not think they are doing evil , think of Saul , Paul when he found out how wrong he was as a child , he done
everything to make up for all the wrong he done in ignorance , he was innocent in the fact of not knowing the ways of God . Jesus has to show us the way , needing both the Father and the Son SPIRITS working in us also .
What was received being great mercy and grace must also be given freely as the sons continue to grow in truth and grace as men of age .
We do not need to fear judgment. We are "in Christ". We respect the discipline of God, but we know all of His intentions are for our edification.
"If we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from ALL unrighteousness."
A healthy awe and respect of the Father and the consequences of indulging the flesh is an important aspect of the wisdom of any spiritual person, and it guides their actions and meditations, but as James said, "We all stumble in many ways".