So the Biblical proof there is no hell?

[chester-blowfold]

Reason I ask is I've been net chatting about hell with a few KJV readers and there pretty damn certain there is a hell and unfortunately most of us are going there.
I class myself as a believer in God and Jesus Christ but seems that's not enough.
You need to renounce all forms of organised religion (pretty sure most KJV readers have Pastors), you can't be a Catholic(my guess is some Catholics feel the same about non Catholics, but hopefully not all) as that's not really a Christian religion. As for Muslims, Budhists etc forget it, doesn't matter how good you are your damned.

Didn't realise there were so many un-Christians Christians out there.

[Lazarus Short]

Well, I lately signed onto another, mainstream Christian forum, and my treatment there moved me to coin this:  The reason there aren't more Christians...is Christians.

Seriously, as far as the KJV and Hell are concerned, you just can't take the word "hell" as prima facie evidence.  Words have definitions, and "hell" is translated from words with very different definitions from what today is associated with Hell.  These words are:

sheol
hades
gehenna
tartarus.

A short time with a good concordance and a good dictionary (I recommend the OED) will point you in the right direction. 

"Hell" originally meant "the grave" as a noun, and "to hide" or "to cover" as a verb.  Language drift, bad theology, and translation following said bad theology have given us the Hell we think we know today.  I had the nagging Question of where our ideas of Hell came from, and decided to plow through the KJV to find an answer.  After over a year, checking every Book, Chapter, and Verse of the KJV, I failed to find sufficient evidence to put the doctrine of eternal, conscious, torment in Hell on the proverbial map.  In fact, I found almost no evidence for it, and almost as little for the doctrine of annihilation. 

I did find that God is both willing and able to save us from sin and death.

[Shev]

Also, 'Gehenna' is only mentioned by Jesus, with the exception of once by James, both of whom were speaking to Israel. Paul does not mention it a single time in any of his epistles, despite saying to those brethren at Ephesus that "...I have not shunned to declare to you the whole counsel of God..."

So, not ONE mention directly to a Gentile. Interesting...

[darryl]

Reason I ask is I've been net chatting about hell with a few KJV readers and there pretty damn certain there is a hell and unfortunately most of us are going there.
I class myself as a believer in God and Jesus Christ but seems that's not enough.
You need to renounce all forms of organised religion (pretty sure most KJV readers have Pastors), you can't be a Catholic(my guess is some Catholics feel the same about non Catholics, but hopefully not all) as that's not really a Christian religion. As for Muslims, Budhists etc forget it, doesn't matter how good you are your damned.

Didn't realise there were so many un-Christians Christians out there.

funnily enough I was praying about 'hellists' and KJV type believers before I logged in...praying that I find love for them cos it bothers me how they misrepresent a loving God, saying He's going to burn people alive forever..they're so exclusive and judgmental...everybody else goes to eternal hell except them...very sad.

[CST]

Well, I lately signed onto another, mainstream Christian forum, and my treatment there moved me to coin this:  The reason there aren't more Christians...is Christians.

Seriously, as far as the KJV and Hell are concerned, you just can't take the word "hell" as prima facie evidence.  Words have definitions, and "hell" is translated from words with very different definitions from what today is associated with Hell.  These words are:

sheol
hades
gehenna
tartarus.

A short time with a good concordance and a good dictionary (I recommend the OED) will point you in the right direction. 

"Hell" originally meant "the grave" as a noun, and "to hide" or "to cover" as a verb.  Language drift, bad theology, and translation following said bad theology have given us the Hell we think we know today.  I had the nagging Question of where our ideas of Hell came from, and decided to plow through the KJV to find an answer.  After over a year, checking every Book, Chapter, and Verse of the KJV, I failed to find sufficient evidence to put the doctrine of eternal, conscious, torment in Hell on the proverbial map.  In fact, I found almost no evidence for it, and almost as little for the doctrine of annihilation. 

I did find that God is both willing and able to save us from sin and death.

My feeling on this is you have to argue directly from scripture that in fact nowhere in the Holy writ does it teach that God will actually send people into a state or place where they are endlessly separated from Him or endlessly punished or endlessly destroyed. You must make it clear your second point because the first one isn't likely to wash.

Most people aren't likely to care that the word 'Hell' isn't in any of the original languages of the Bible or that it might have a pagan origin. They recognise it as an English word now and all they'll care about is if the Bible teaches the existence of whatever they understand that word to represent. If they believe it does, than they'll be perfectly happy with both the word and the conclusions behind it.

[rosered]

Well, I lately signed onto another, mainstream Christian forum, and my treatment there moved me to coin this:  The reason there aren't more Christians...is Christians.

Seriously, as far as the KJV and Hell are concerned, you just can't take the word "hell" as prima facie evidence.  Words have definitions, and "hell" is translated from words with very different definitions from what today is associated with Hell.  These words are:

sheol
hades
gehenna
tartarus.

A short time with a good concordance and a good dictionary (I recommend the OED) will point you in the right direction. 

"Hell" originally meant "the grave" as a noun, and "to hide" or "to cover" as a verb.  Language drift, bad theology, and translation following said bad theology have given us the Hell we think we know today.  I had the nagging Question of where our ideas of Hell came from, and decided to plow through the KJV to find an answer.  After over a year, checking every Book, Chapter, and Verse of the KJV, I failed to find sufficient evidence to put the doctrine of eternal, conscious, torment in Hell on the proverbial map.  In fact, I found almost no evidence for it, and almost as little for the doctrine of annihilation. 

I did find that God is both willing and able to save us from sin and death.

My feeling on this is you have to argue directly from scripture that in fact nowhere in the Holy writ does it teach that God will actually send people into a state or place where they are endlessly separated from Him or endlessly punished or endlessly destroyed. You must make it clear your second point because the first one isn't likely to wash.

Most people aren't likely to care that the word 'Hell' isn't in any of the original languages of the Bible or that it might have a pagan origin. They recognise it as an English word now and all they'll care about is if the Bible teaches the existence of whatever they understand that word to represent. If they believe it does, than they'll be perfectly happy with both the word and the conclusions behind it.

  Well in a nutshell , they are still sitting in darkness   , the worldly wisdom  of satan and  STILL being held captive BY FEAR OF DEATH , not even close to knowing the LOVE OF GOD fully /perfectly /completely  yet . and have not risen to the Life in Christ yet as  light in a dark place ,   they have yet to give up on the earthly life of pleasuring themselves  by the lusts of the  flesh  in their hearts , causing more error /sins  to multiply as prisoners to sin and prone to error
  The Bible teaches us  we are not to love our lives  more than God  , but Life and death are ours to experience    and  to not love our lives , but to accept death as a part of life  IN CHRIST    ... I see this as the first resurrection   /to     rise  and come back up out of , from death ,, to STAND  and not lie down  or sit  , to be lifted up  to a higher   place  from a lower position  [grave ]  hell to me   Isaiah  5  hell /sheol  has enlarged herself  [ BABYLON ]  her children are marked for death
There is No understanding in  the grave /outer darkness , just weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth/anger  strife  /divisions     , the birthright of  being born flesh and blood    that NEVER pleases God   nor never will and having the wrong spirit , the spirit of pride set for utter destruction  ...

Until they rise up out of the BODY OF DEATH  being   granted by the LORD JESUS CHRIST and to  sit  with Him in His  Fathers Throne [Rev 3 ] , they can NEVER EVER  in the here and now   comprehend grasp mentally; understand  and encompass  it  being  bound on earth by their own carnal minds ,   the carnal  minded are in death    and   do not even realize it as such ..
Thus the need to be born again anew  as a ''holy one ''  new creature in Christ , described in the WORD/seed of Life  ,  as to how this is done  ,  by Gods own Spirit of Life  .  GOD alone gives  us  / grants us  the spiritual growth as He Alone destroys    Babylons   hold on mankind .
 

[CST]

Yeah, what of the fear of life and living? A lot of people have that too because they've been taught it leads to Hell.

'The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I came that they may have life, and have it abundantly.' (John 10:10)

[rosered]

Yeah, what of the fear of life and living? A lot of people have that too because they've been taught it leads to Hell.

'The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I came that they may have life, and have it abundantly.' (John 10:10)

I do believe that will be the  main   flaw  when knowing that living and enjoying the good things of God and His  blessing on them  , having a  thankful and grateful heart and   holy , pure   
    relationship  with Him  was  all God ever wanted them to experience in this life but they  just could not understand it .
Thinking sin was so dark a covering they could not escape it , but it is  a lie of  the adversary .


Hebrews 12:28-29 - Therefore, since we receive a kingdom which cannot be shaken, let us show gratitude, by which we may offer to God an acceptable service with reverence and awe; for our God is a consuming fire.

Psalm 28:7 -The LORD is my strength and my shield; My heart trusts in Him, and I am helped; Therefore my heart exults, And with my song I shall thank Him.

Psalm 69:30 - I will praise the name of God with song, And shall magnify Him with thanksgiving.

Colossians 2:6-7 - Therefore as you have received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in Him, having been firmly rooted and now being built up in Him and established in your faith, just as you were instructed, and overflowing with gratitude.


Psalm 34:1 - I will bless the LORD at all times; His praise shall continually be in my mouth.

Psalm 100:4 - Enter His gates with thanksgiving, And His courts with praise. Give thanks to Him; bless His name.

Jonah 2:9 - But I will sacrifice to You With the voice of thanksgiving. That which I have vowed I will pay Salvation is from the LORD."

Ephesians 5:3-4 - But immorality or any impurity or greed must not even be named among you, as is proper among saints; and there must be no filthiness and silly talk, or coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks.

1 Timothy 4:4-5 - For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected, if it is received with gratitude; for it is sanctified by means of the word of God and prayer.

1 Thessalonians 5:18 in everything give thanks; for this is God's will for you in Christ Jesus.


GOD does will and desires  obedience more than sacrifices   Only can be done though Jesus Christ the Word made flesh .. :HeartThrob:

[Lazarus Short]

My feeling on this is you have to argue directly from scripture that in fact nowhere in the Holy writ does it teach that God will actually send people into a state or place where they are endlessly separated from Him or endlessly punished or endlessly destroyed. You must make it clear your second point because the first one isn't likely to wash.

Most people aren't likely to care that the word 'Hell' isn't in any of the original languages of the Bible or that it might have a pagan origin. They recognise it as an English word now and all they'll care about is if the Bible teaches the existence of whatever they understand that word to represent. If they believe it does, than they'll be perfectly happy with both the word and the conclusions behind it.

I have argued directly from the Scripture, but it would be difficult to post the 190 pages of Heaven, Yes - Hell, No in this thread, and I don't do proof texts.  Hell is a spiritual stronghold, and most people won't "get" it, but I am not writing to them - only to those who have eyes to see what they are looking at.  With most, we will need to be content with baby steps at first, until such people are weaned from milk and ready for strong meat.

[Jock]

I suppose that the Baptist church in Topeka Kansas are probably the most extreme case of "Hellion" that I have seen. Look at their hearts, full of hatred and spite telling most everybody is on their way to a devil's hell. Have mercy on them, Lord.

:Pray:

Jock.  :Peace2:

[CST]

Yeah, what of the fear of life and living? A lot of people have that too because they've been taught it leads to Hell.

'The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I came that they may have life, and have it abundantly.' (John 10:10)

I do believe that will be the  main   flaw  when knowing that living and enjoying the good things of God and His  blessing on them  , having a  thankful and grateful heart and   holy , pure   
    relationship  with Him  was  all God ever wanted them to experience in this life but they  just could not understand it .
Thinking sin was so dark a covering they could not escape it , but it is  a lie of  the adversary .


Hebrews 12:28-29 - Therefore, since we receive a kingdom which cannot be shaken, let us show gratitude, by which we may offer to God an acceptable service with reverence and awe; for our God is a consuming fire.

Psalm 28:7 -The LORD is my strength and my shield; My heart trusts in Him, and I am helped; Therefore my heart exults, And with my song I shall thank Him.

Psalm 69:30 - I will praise the name of God with song, And shall magnify Him with thanksgiving.

Colossians 2:6-7 - Therefore as you have received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in Him, having been firmly rooted and now being built up in Him and established in your faith, just as you were instructed, and overflowing with gratitude.


Psalm 34:1 - I will bless the LORD at all times; His praise shall continually be in my mouth.

Psalm 100:4 - Enter His gates with thanksgiving, And His courts with praise. Give thanks to Him; bless His name.

Jonah 2:9 - But I will sacrifice to You With the voice of thanksgiving. That which I have vowed I will pay Salvation is from the LORD."

Ephesians 5:3-4 - But immorality or any impurity or greed must not even be named among you, as is proper among saints; and there must be no filthiness and silly talk, or coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks.

1 Timothy 4:4-5 - For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected, if it is received with gratitude; for it is sanctified by means of the word of God and prayer.

1 Thessalonians 5:18 in everything give thanks; for this is God's will for you in Christ Jesus.


GOD does will and desires  obedience more than sacrifices   Only can be done though Jesus Christ the Word made flesh .. :HeartThrob:

I don't feel that there's too much to be grateful for in this phase. But that's still better than when you believe in Eternal Torment. Then you can't be grateful for anything because everything created by God is not good but a trap designed to snare you and drag you to destruction.

My feeling on this is you have to argue directly from scripture that in fact nowhere in the Holy writ does it teach that God will actually send people into a state or place where they are endlessly separated from Him or endlessly punished or endlessly destroyed. You must make it clear your second point because the first one isn't likely to wash.

Most people aren't likely to care that the word 'Hell' isn't in any of the original languages of the Bible or that it might have a pagan origin. They recognise it as an English word now and all they'll care about is if the Bible teaches the existence of whatever they understand that word to represent. If they believe it does, than they'll be perfectly happy with both the word and the conclusions behind it.

I have argued directly from the Scripture, but it would be difficult to post the 190 pages of Heaven, Yes - Hell, No in this thread, and I don't do proof texts.  Hell is a spiritual stronghold, and most people won't "get" it, but I am not writing to them - only to those who have eyes to see what they are looking at.  With most, we will need to be content with baby steps at first, until such people are weaned from milk and ready for strong meat.

I understand you 'don't believe in proof texts' I doubt the Bible can be used that way, but the original poster did appear to ask for such a thing so it might have been easier just to say that in the first place. And while I concur it would be unreasonable to post those 190 pages here but presumably there are certain choice excerpts that could be used.

For my part I was just pointing out my own position that I don't think it will be helpful to simply tell people the word Hell isn't in the Bible and explain that because a lot of people will just think 'Gehenna, that's the Greek word for "Hell" (even though it isn't)'.

I suppose that the Baptist church in Topeka Kansas are probably the most extreme case of "Hellion" that I have seen. Look at their hearts, full of hatred and spite telling most everybody is on their way to a devil's hell. Have mercy on them, Lord.

:Pray:

Jock.  :Peace2:

AMEN!

[marie glen]

Well, I lately signed onto another, mainstream Christian forum, and my treatment there moved me to coin this:  The reason there aren't more Christians...is Christians.

Oh man.. I had to stop reading this thread and respond.. As I think this statement is so true! I began to challenge the 'hell' myth in a certain group of atheists vs christians (or vie versa..?) Soon after it seemed like everyone kept posting images and claims of people burning alive in fiery flames.. faces melting.. etc, etc.. Good grief. :laughing7: This, is supposed to convince an athesits to "believe". :laughing7:

Sorry.. I've been wanting to express that for a little while now.. :mshock: Also someone posted how 1 timothy 4:10 "God is the savior of all" is a strange and dangerous cult.. o brother...

Words have definitions, and "hell" is translated from words with very different definitions from what today is associated with Hell.  These words are:

sheol
hades
gehenna
tartarus.

I can never, ever resist a good (Bible) quiz:

imo,

sheol - which ecclesiastes 9:10 says within, there is no thought nor doing
hades - "place of the dead" I figure is still sheol where there is neither thought nor doing
gehenna - the Jerusalem city dump where even criminal's bodies were burned, so it was kept burning, later legend was added to it
tartarus - deepest darkness (of character, this very dark)

A short time with a good concordance and a good dictionary (I recommend the OED) will point you in the right direction. 

"Hell" originally meant "the grave" as a noun, and "to hide" or "to cover" as a verb.  Language drift, bad theology, and translation following said bad theology have given us the Hell we think we know today.  I had the nagging Question of where our ideas of Hell came from, and decided to plow through the KJV to find an answer.  After over a year, checking every Book, Chapter, and Verse of the KJV, I failed to find sufficient evidence to put the doctrine of eternal, conscious, torment in Hell on the proverbial map.  In fact, I found almost no evidence for it, and almost as little for the doctrine of annihilation. 

I did find that God is both willing and able to save us from sin and death.

   :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

That thread examining every book of the Bible is an exceLLent thread!! (I coulda swore I bookmarked the link to it! :Chinscratch: )

Also, 'Gehenna' is only mentioned by Jesus, with the exception of once by James, both of whom were speaking to Israel. Paul does not mention it a single time in any of his epistles, despite saying to those brethren at Ephesus that "...I have not shunned to declare to you the whole counsel of God..."

So, not ONE mention directly to a Gentile. Interesting...

   :faint: I didn't realize that! wow..! :thumbsup:

---------------------------

http://tentmaker.org/forum/hellbusters-hallow/heaven-yes-hell-no/ - this is the thread Lazarus mentioned - It is however a 13 page thread.. but worth reading over time if you have time..

This is a one post thread of 77 Universal Reconciliation supporting verses - Not sure as it "proves" there is no 'hell' but very good nevertheless! - http://tentmaker.org/forum/rules-and-faq/77-ultimate-reconciliation-and-renewal-scriptures/msg118063/#msg118063

To me the "proof" that there is no hell is I figure any doctrine which denies #1 - God is not all (100%) good or #2 - God is not (100%) able! Almighty.. all powerful.. omni-able! Cannot be true, as surely(?) God can onLy be perfect!! Yes?

And, perfect makes no mistakes.. no errors in judgment.. and (surely?) can lose nothing! Otherwise, would not be perfect.. or to not care to save all.. which too.. seems to me, to lack Perfection.

Logic, to me, proves.. add to that God's Words - (Or, actually vice versa.. God's Words plus logic!) -
"the words of the Lord are flawless,
    like silver purified in a crucible,
    like gold refined seven times." - Ps 12:6
       :Peace2: God bless!

P.S - just read this verse in another thread - "John 1:5 "The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it...."

if our heavenly Father were to lose even one ..wouldn't that be darkness winning in that instance? And then could be said that darkness overcame the light..

[CST]

http://tentmaker.org/forum/hellbusters-hallow/heaven-yes-hell-no/ - this is the thread Lazarus mentioned - It is however a 13 page thread.. but worth reading over time if you have time..

So not 190 then and I imagine that thirteen pages also includes replies from other members of the site. Where does the 190 come from? I'm imagining 190 posts by Lazarus and all the relevant replies. I may even get to that thread eventually but at the moment there's an awful lot of other post for me to get through. An awful, awful lot. This site is huge.

[marie glen]

 :laughing7: ...One of these days, I'm going to read a lot more of the material included on the tentmaker website.. hopefully.. maybe acquaint myself with some of the better known authors.. (It would help if I didn't have to sleep!)

[CST]

It would, it would also help me if I had personal access to the internet instead of having to rely on limited and not entirely dependable public ones.

[Lazarus Short]

That thread examining every book of the Bible is an exceLLent thread!! (I coulda swore I bookmarked the link to it!

Marie, would you like a printed copy when I am done?  There have been revisions and additions.

[Lazarus Short]

http://tentmaker.org/forum/hellbusters-hallow/heaven-yes-hell-no/ - this is the thread Lazarus mentioned - It is however a 13 page thread.. but worth reading over time if you have time..

So not 190 then and I imagine that thirteen pages also includes replies from other members of the site. Where does the 190 come from? I'm imagining 190 posts by Lazarus and all the relevant replies. I may even get to that thread eventually but at the moment there's an awful lot of other post for me to get through. An awful, awful lot. This site is huge.

The part of the manuscript on the thread is ~178 pages, but I have no idea how 178 Word-for-Mac pages translated into 13 thread pages.

[chester-blowfold]

Hi guys and gals.
We've not all got your great knowledge and intelligence.
Can you keep it a bit more simple?
Particularly rosered  where my thick brain got none of that haha.

If you were explain to a child there was no hell how would you do it?

[rosered]

Hi guys and gals.
We've not all got your great knowledge and intelligence.
Can you keep it a bit more simple?
Particularly rosered  where my thick brain got none of that haha.

If you were explain to a child there was no hell how would you do it?

I actually did explain  to my little children growing up ,  Chester , :dsunny:

I told them there is no hell like some believe there is, just like  there is no santa claus or easter bunny   either.

These are  all lies  and when you grow up you will understand what I am saying , My son honored me by saying ,'' Thanks Mom '', for   telling me the truth   from the start .  This happened  one day , when he was 24 years old  and visiting us . I have been blessed  to see   my children have a spiritual  core  already  working in them By the Word and Spirit of Life .  A blessing for sure .

  Hell is the grave /sheol  /underworld   this is   the under heaven ''world ''  we live in and are born  ignorant of the things of God,as darkness ,   to me .

Jesus teaches us to pray   for Gods will to be done on earth as it is in heaven  , because it is not  being done  for the lack of faith and unbelief .



As we learn   to trust in God by the answered prayers of exercising  faith  , than does heaven open  for us , it is all a process and  all in Gods power to do it .

  And  GOD always keeps his WORD .. God bless :HeartThrob:
 

[Cristina100]

Ask the KJV fundamentalist whether they have been to the lowest depths of Hell.

[Dandelion]

That's beautiful, Rose.

You had the opportunity to teach your children about UR, when they were still young.

I have discussed it with my children. They grew up emmersed in both 'religion' and faith, though we had many problems in my home.

But, they are grown now. My daughter now declares she is an atheist, and my son believes, but thinks I will 'outgrow' this phase.         :scratchhead:

Praying..........

D.

[chester-blowfold]

And those who aren't religious or of a differing religion? Are these people saved as well?

[chester-blowfold]

Cristina, what do you mean?

[chester-blowfold]

Yes nice post rosered. Still manages to confuse though haha.

[rosered]

Oh Dandelion ,
We praise God for any and all understanding and will pray also for you children , God bless them  always  :HeartThrob:

And those who aren't religious or of a differing religion? Are these people saved as well?

You are so precious Chester     :HeartThrob:

  This is an excellent opportunity to   say , If God gives us life   ,

It is certainly    though His Spirit of Life   and even those ignorant of His Word  will  know by the same Holy Spirit that  teaches us to pray and make intercession for us   , not knowing how to pray to the Father  ,  the same   ONE AND ONLY  HOLY SPIRIT  does the same for them also   .

Nothing  gets passed the FATHERS WILL than none should perish   absolutely NOTHING ... 

 
Jesus Christ  died for ALL  , not some or a few  , but all ,  and it is each in their own order  in how and when they RISE UP OUT OF DEATH into the newness of Life in the Spirit and truth  , these same holy ones   joined in the Body of Christ  are also are praying , Gods will be done on earth as it is in heaven .  Heaven knows already !!

   The Spirit knows all things and teaches us   to KNOW GOD  whom is LOVE  , all will love Him when they Know Him and  understand ..

1 Cor 2 Spiritual Wisdom   :dsunny:   HOLY LIGHT/fully known  and no darkness/ignorance  at all ever again [Rev 21] 

...9 Rather, as it is written: "No eye has seen, no ear has heard, no heart has imagined, what God has prepared for those who love Him."

10But God has revealed it to us by the Spirit.

The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God.


11For who among men knows the thoughts of man except his own spirit within him? So too, no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God....


How do we know the TRUTH in Spirit of God ?

By believing  His Word, that is TRUTH  .

Proof  that we do    ?

   We love  one another , everyone, everywhere,  all the time  same as ourselves !!!!!!!!!!!!!

praying  in the SPIRIT,  they Know God as we have  known / learned of Him  . 


HIS WORD IS COMPLETE  BY HIS OWN SPIRIT OF LIGHT IN LIFE .

The Light & Fire go hand in hand  , being the power of God to  separate  ,

the things that must be removed in us all and  joined together   in HIM , what remains eternal  that was always from Him in the first place ....