Judas

[gluecht2]

What has become of Judas;   the one who was better off not being born?

[jugghead]

For me, he was born again when his spirit left his physical body, born out of the old and born again into the new

for me, the born again experience we can have here is just a taste of its fullness, the full manifestation of it is our physical death here

and that "better off not being born" is understood as: if he knew beforehand that he would be the one who betrayed Jesus, he would not want to be born, but by not knowing, he played his part of; "the fulfilling of God's plan"

[gluecht2]

How does that line of thought reconcile with Jn 17:12?

[jugghead]

How does that line of thought reconcile with Jn 17:12?

Luke 15:4  What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?

[gluecht2]

I'm not sure how that changes the plain meaning of Jn 17:12?

[MusicLover123]

John 10
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

John 3
35The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.

Does that help?

[gluecht2]

No one can pluck one from God-that is correct;   nobody plucked Judas away from God;  it was by his own decision.   With that said how does the plain meaning of John 17:12 change?   It plainly states that he was destroyed.

[MusicLover123]

God cannot bring back those who are destroyed?

1 Corinthians 15
21for since through man [is] the death, also through man [is] a rising again of the dead,
22for even as in Adam all die, so also in the Christ all shall be made alive,
23and each in his proper order, a first-fruit Christ, afterwards those who are the Christ's, in his presence,
24then — the end, when he may deliver up the reign to God, even the Father, when he may have made useless all rule, and all authority and power —
25for it behoveth him to reign till he may have put all the enemies under his feet —
26the last enemy is done away — death;
27for all things He did put under his feet, and, when one may say that all things have been subjected, [it is] evident that He is excepted who did subject the all things to him,
28and when the all things may be subjected to him, then the Son also himself shall be subject to Him, who did subject to him the all things, that God may be the all in all.

Romans 11
29for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable. (Once it is given, it cannot be given back. Salvation is a gift too)

Romans 5
18Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Matthew 18
11 "For the Son of Man has come to save that which was lost(destruction in Greek).

[jabcat]

I believe this is a good and legitimate question and discussion.  Keep it going in a civil, respectful tone, and it can be fruitful.  A good challenge/sincere question handled well can be useful to all.  :)

ML, I think you are referencing 'apollumi', which is often translated destroyed.  But as you're referencing, multiple scriptures show things in the scripture that are [translated] "destroyed" - even "eternally" [olam/aion, translated], are in fact a temporary and ultimately remedied condition.  I.e., the lost coin, the lost sheep, Jonah "eternally" in the belly of the whale, Nineveh being destroyed but will be restored...

[jabcat]

A good look at aion and apollumi, and how much of their current rendering [influenced by Dark Ages' Rome, and through tradition made it into most mainstream translations] was very important to me when I first started looking at ultimate reconciliation through Jesus Christ.  :)

[eaglesway]

I believe in the judgment of God. I am not sure what Jesus meant when He said Judas was better off having never been born, but Jesus did not follow it up by saying, "I say this as proof of eternal torment".

We plug things in according to our own disposition and prejudices.

Jesus could very well be speaking to the intense torment Judas went through in his own conscience as outweighing all the experience of the rest of his life.

I believe Judas could not live with the realization of what he had done and lost his mind. Onlly God knows the rest, but Jesus said, "If I am lifted up from the earth I will draw all men unto me." Judas was a man, so he will be drawn. Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess, "Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father (Phil 2). Every enemy will be subjected to Christ and returned to the Father so that God may become all in all(1 Cor 15). Everything in heaven and earth will be reconciled to God through the cross of Jesus Christ(Col 1). So I believe Judas is sleeping in Sheol until the Day.

[WhiteWings]

What has become of Judas;   the one who was better off not being born?

Linguistically speaking it's debated who 'that man' is referring to. Jesus or Judas.

https://studybible.info/CLV/Mark%2014
Verse 21
seeing that the Son of Mankind is indeed going away according as it is written concerning Him, yet woe to that man through whom the Son of Mankind is being given up! Ideal were it for Him if that man were not born!"

Notice that 'Him' refers to Jesus.

There is a very detailed discussion about it somewhere on this forum. Or linking to a discussing on the Concordance site.

[WhiteWings]

Found what I was referring to: http://www.saviourofall.org/opposers/HeweyCLNTReliableOne.html
The on-topic part is 2/5 down the page. Marked with orange. I has the only drawing on the page.

To easily find it do the following (Windows only?)
Ctrl + F
In the box that opens, enter: Ideal were it for Him
Press return

[joeteekay]

Article on Salvation of Judas can be found on page 173 at:

https://s3.amazonaws.com/unsearchablerich/urscans/Unsearchable+Riches+Volume+09++1917+-+1918.pdf

:thumbsup:

[Dandelion]

Jesus could very well be speaking to the intense torment Judas went through in his own conscience as outweighing all the experience of the rest of his life.   Quote by EW.

I agree with this.

D.

[gluecht2]

Thankyou for all of your thoughtful replies.  In the years that I have studied, prayed and received revelation I have been party to many discussions, even debates RE God's Word.   As with this discussion, many times valid questions of translation arise.   I find, and even participate, in these worthy discussions--to a point.   A concern I have is when, in these discussions,  it seems that unless one is significantly advanced in the nuances of language meaningful understanding cannot be reached.   I also find a tendency toward eisegesis rather than exegesis (which I myself have been corrected of by the Lord) to arrive at a systemic theology that works.   I'll just suggest with all humility (and by revelation) to start with the simple meanings; "own" what is stated, and ask for understanding and wisdom (dreams and/or timely revelation while studying scripture works for me).   I also am praying for family issues on behalf of a discussion participant who shall be nameless.  Proverbs 6:23;  Psalm 119:130.....thanks again for all your efforts!

[jabcat]

 :thumbsup:

What he went through was painful, devastating, and best if he had not had to go through it.  I think Judas [the human, carnal parts of him] was destroyed.  But I also think he [in spirit] was renewed.

And Jesus said to them, "Truly I say to you that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man shall sit down upon His throne of glory, you having followed Me, you also will sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel."

Beautiful.  Forgiveness.  Restoration.  Forgive your enemies, pray for those who trespass against you.

The love of Jesus.

[Patinak]

I hadn't noticed in the verse before, the connection of the twelve (Judas was one).
Good find James!

[jabcat]

I hadn't noticed in the verse before, the connection of the twelve (Judas was one).
Good find James!

:)  ty

[joeteekay]

Is it not likely that Judas was replaced by Matthias and he made up the 12?  Judas will likely be in the white throne judgement.  :2c:

Act 1:23  And they appointed two, Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias. 
Act 1:24  And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen, 
Act 1:25  That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place. 
Act 1:26  And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles. 

[Patinak]

Is it not likely that Judas was replaced by Matthias and he made up the 12?  Judas will likely be in the white throne judgement.  :2c:

Act 1:23  And they appointed two, Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias.
Act 1:24  And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen,
Act 1:25  That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.
Act 1:26  And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.

You may be right.  It's kind of hard to follow the timeline, but it seems that in the verse James quoted (Matt. 19:28) and a similar one ([Luk 22:] 30 "That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.") , Judas was still in the picture.
This sure isn't anything I would argue about, I just have always felt sorry for Judas because he really didn't have any choice in the whole scenario, his part was predestined.  I just saw another opportunity for mercy to triumph over justice.

[jabcat]

I know that's a consideration, but Mathias wasn't present when Jesus said "you 12".  Judas was.  Also I think it's important that Jesus chose Judas directly, personally.  Mathias (though not "illegitimate") still, was chosen later (after Jesus' statement) by casting lots. 

I said in my post "pray for your enemies".  Which in a sense, at the time of the betrayal when satan entered Judas, he did become Jesus' enemy.  However, I personally believe Judas was performing a role he had been chosen to play.  Someone had to do it.

I know choice is involved in life, and I'm not saying I believe God "makes" us do every single little thing, including rebellion.  I know obedience, seeking, guarding our heart, etc. is important.  However, there are many verses that show God raises people up - even creates them - for specific reasons.  Pharaoh is the obvious one, also the scripture about Him creating vessels of honor and vessels of dishonor.  I've been amazed lately of how much the Psalms talks about God hardening a people, or turning their hearts away from Him etc.     So again, i personally believe Judas was playing a role he had no other choice in, at least AT THAT SPECIFIC TIME. 

So (among many other reasons related to UR, and also the verse quoted directly to Judas and the other 12) I don't see God tormenting forever the person who was doing what he had been appointed to do.   I personally believe many/most things in this life are temporal - important for learning and future foundation - yet much of it will pass away.  So IMO then, in the sense of the temporal pain and dishonor and self-disgust, "better for that man if he had not been born".   However, our God is a God of renewal and restoration.  He knows His plan and it is best.    :2c:

[marie glen]

What has become of Judas;   the one who was better off not being born?

A figure of speech? Revelation by barest outline, shows two ages which follow this one, as we know, the Millennium, but what goes very missed (usually) is 'Day' of Judgment.

Keeping that in mind, when shall Psalm 22:27, for instance, be fulfilled?

- "All the ends of the earth shall remember and turn to the LORD, and all the families of the nations shall worship before you."

            https://biblehub.com/interlinear/psalms/22-27.htm - interlinear word for word w/ links to the greek words
quoted from Ps. 95:11, no time word in the verse.. If one hardens their heart they cannot enter His rest - makes sense.

And when shall Jesus complete the work of John 12:32 - "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all to Myself."
   
    https://biblehub.com/interlinear/john/12-32.htm -  interlinear word for word w/ links to the greek words


And the verses like  -
  - "It is written: “As surely as I live, says the Lord, every knee will bow before Me; every tongue will confess to God.”

Word for word interlinear - https://biblehub.com/interlinear/romans/14-11.htm

The Greek, translated "confess" - 1843. exomologeó profess

– properly, fully agree and to acknowledge that agreement openly (whole-heartedly); hence, to confess ("openly declare"), without reservation (no holding back).

Quoted, of course from Isaiah - "By myself I have sworn, my mouth has uttered in all integrity a word that will not be revoked: Before me every knee will bow; by me every tongue will swear." / "make an oath/covenant" - https://biblehub.com/hebrew/7650.htm)

Every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.
God bless!

p.s. - I read an article about those verses, and what it did was basically contradict the verses. (I hate that. Lol)

And of course one verse they used was from Hebrews, the phrase "they shall never enter My rest" - of course the word never, we will find is actually from aion, root word of eon.

Oops, actually there's no time word in the verse at all - https://biblehub.com/interlinear/hebrews/3-11.htm

[marie glen]

And Jesus said to them, "Truly I say to you that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man shall sit down upon His throne of glory, you having followed Me, you also will sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel."

Beautiful.  Forgiveness.  Restoration.  Forgive your enemies, pray for those who trespass against you.

The love of Jesus.

:thumbsup: I've never realized that before.. He spoke it to the 12.. (Matthias was later),

And as Sister D. has said, "God is love" and "love never fails" (never.) 1 Jn.4:8 and 1 Cor.13:8

Linguistically speaking it's debated who 'that man' is referring to. Jesus or Judas.

https://studybible.info/CLV/Mark%2014
Verse 21
seeing that the Son of Mankind is indeed going away according as it is written concerning Him, yet woe to that man through whom the Son of Mankind is being given up! Ideal were it for Him if that man were not born!"

Notice that 'Him' refers to Jesus.

There is a very detailed discussion about it somewhere on this forum. Or linking to a discussing on the Concordance site.

That's interesting..

[joeteekay]

Judas will not be in the first resurrection. He never did receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. That needs to happen to all those who are the saints and who will be raised at the first resurrection. The Holy Spirit came on the day of Pentecost, not before. When Jesus breathed on his disciples this was a promise of the coming of the Holy Spirit (John 20:22). Judas was no longer there. Therefore Judas, now dead (asleep) in Hades (the grave), awaits the resurrection to Judgement at which time he will be made right with Christ, enter the lake of fire, and thereafter be immortalized at the consummation when God becomes all in all. Consequently, he is not one of the twelve Apostles who are mentioned in Rev 21:14 as forming the foundation wall of the Holy City. It may well be the replacement of Judas which would make up the twelve. That may be Matthias. In all likely hood it is not the Apostle Paul. All this is dependent on our individual understanding of the progression of the ages and the events therein, up until the consummation. In matters such as these we may individually respectfully and peacefully agree to disagree.  :2c: :2c: