What has become of Judas; the one who was better off not being born?
For me, he was born again when his spirit left his physical body, born out of the old and born again into the new
for me, the born again experience we can have here is just a taste of its fullness, the full manifestation of it is our physical death here
and that "better off not being born" is understood as: if he knew beforehand that he would be the one who betrayed Jesus, he would not want to be born, but by not knowing, he played his part of; "the fulfilling of God's plan"
How does that line of thought reconcile with Jn 17:12?
Quote from: gluecht2 on December 31, 2018, 09:31:17 PM
How does that line of thought reconcile with Jn 17:12?
Luke 15:4 What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?
I'm not sure how that changes the plain meaning of Jn 17:12?
John 10
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
John 3
35The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.
Does that help?
No one can pluck one from God-that is correct; nobody plucked Judas away from God; it was by his own decision. With that said how does the plain meaning of John 17:12 change? It plainly states that he was destroyed.
God cannot bring back those who are destroyed?
1 Corinthians 15
21for since through man [is] the death, also through man [is] a rising again of the dead,
22for even as in Adam all die, so also in the Christ all shall be made alive,
23and each in his proper order, a first-fruit Christ, afterwards those who are the Christ's, in his presence,
24then — the end, when he may deliver up the reign to God, even the Father, when he may have made useless all rule, and all authority and power —
25for it behoveth him to reign till he may have put all the enemies under his feet —
26the last enemy is done away — death;
27for all things He did put under his feet, and, when one may say that all things have been subjected, [it is] evident that He is excepted who did subject the all things to him,
28and when the all things may be subjected to him, then the Son also himself shall be subject to Him, who did subject to him the all things, that God may be the all in all.
Romans 11
29for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable. (Once it is given, it cannot be given back. Salvation is a gift too)
Romans 5
18Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
Matthew 18
11 "For the Son of Man has come to save that which was lost(destruction in Greek).
I believe this is a good and legitimate question and discussion. Keep it going in a civil, respectful tone, and it can be fruitful. A good challenge/sincere question handled well can be useful to all. :)
ML, I think you are referencing 'apollumi', which is often translated destroyed. But as you're referencing, multiple scriptures show things in the scripture that are [translated] "destroyed" - even "eternally" [olam/aion, translated], are in fact a temporary and ultimately remedied condition. I.e., the lost coin, the lost sheep, Jonah "eternally" in the belly of the whale, Nineveh being destroyed but will be restored...
A good look at aion and apollumi, and how much of their current rendering [influenced by Dark Ages' Rome, and through tradition made it into most mainstream translations] was very important to me when I first started looking at ultimate reconciliation through Jesus Christ. :)
I believe in the judgment of God. I am not sure what Jesus meant when He said Judas was better off having never been born, but Jesus did not follow it up by saying, "I say this as proof of eternal torment".
We plug things in according to our own disposition and prejudices.
Jesus could very well be speaking to the intense torment Judas went through in his own conscience as outweighing all the experience of the rest of his life.
I believe Judas could not live with the realization of what he had done and lost his mind. Onlly God knows the rest, but Jesus said, "If I am lifted up from the earth I will draw all men unto me." Judas was a man, so he will be drawn. Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess, "Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father (Phil 2). Every enemy will be subjected to Christ and returned to the Father so that God may become all in all(1 Cor 15). Everything in heaven and earth will be reconciled to God through the cross of Jesus Christ(Col 1). So I believe Judas is sleeping in Sheol until the Day.
Quote from: gluecht2 on December 31, 2018, 04:19:40 PM
What has become of Judas; the one who was better off not being born?
Linguistically speaking it's debated who 'that man' is referring to. Jesus or Judas.
https://studybible.info/CLV/Mark%2014
Verse 21
seeing that the Son of Mankind is indeed going away according as it is written concerning Him, yet woe to that man through whom the Son of Mankind is being given up! Ideal were it for Him if that man were not born!"Notice that '
Him' refers to Jesus.
There is a very detailed discussion about it somewhere on this forum. Or linking to a discussing on the Concordance site.
Found what I was referring to: http://www.saviourofall.org/opposers/HeweyCLNTReliableOne.html
The on-topic part is 2/5 down the page. Marked with orange. I has the only drawing on the page.
To easily find it do the following (Windows only?)
Ctrl + F
In the box that opens, enter: Ideal were it for Him
Press return
Article on Salvation of Judas can be found on page 173 at:
https://s3.amazonaws.com/unsearchablerich/urscans/Unsearchable+Riches+Volume+09++1917+-+1918.pdf
:thumbsup:
Jesus could very well be speaking to the intense torment Judas went through in his own conscience as outweighing all the experience of the rest of his life. Quote by EW.
I agree with this.
D.
Thankyou for all of your thoughtful replies. In the years that I have studied, prayed and received revelation I have been party to many discussions, even debates RE God's Word. As with this discussion, many times valid questions of translation arise. I find, and even participate, in these worthy discussions--to a point. A concern I have is when, in these discussions, it seems that unless one is significantly advanced in the nuances of language meaningful understanding cannot be reached. I also find a tendency toward eisegesis rather than exegesis (which I myself have been corrected of by the Lord) to arrive at a systemic theology that works. I'll just suggest with all humility (and by revelation) to start with the simple meanings; "own" what is stated, and ask for understanding and wisdom (dreams and/or timely revelation while studying scripture works for me). I also am praying for family issues on behalf of a discussion participant who shall be nameless. Proverbs 6:23; Psalm 119:130.....thanks again for all your efforts!
:thumbsup:
What he went through was painful, devastating, and best if he had not had to go through it. I think Judas [the human, carnal parts of him] was destroyed. But I also think he [in spirit] was renewed.
And Jesus said to them, "Truly I say to you that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man shall sit down upon His throne of glory, you having followed Me, you also will sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel."
Beautiful. Forgiveness. Restoration. Forgive your enemies, pray for those who trespass against you.
The love of Jesus.
I hadn't noticed in the verse before, the connection of the twelve (Judas was one).
Good find James!
Quote from: Patinak on January 02, 2019, 07:42:56 AM
I hadn't noticed in the verse before, the connection of the twelve (Judas was one).
Good find James!
:) ty
Is it not likely that Judas was replaced by Matthias and he made up the 12? Judas will likely be in the white throne judgement. :2c:
Act 1:23 And they appointed two, Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias.
Act 1:24 And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen,
Act 1:25 That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.
Act 1:26 And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.
Quote from: joeteekay on January 02, 2019, 05:17:22 PM
Is it not likely that Judas was replaced by Matthias and he made up the 12? Judas will likely be in the white throne judgement. :2c:
Act 1:23 And they appointed two, Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias.
Act 1:24 And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen,
Act 1:25 That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.
Act 1:26 And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.
You may be right. It's kind of hard to follow the timeline, but it seems that in the verse James quoted (Matt. 19:28) and a similar one ([Luk 22:] 30 "That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.") , Judas was still in the picture.
This sure isn't anything I would argue about, I just have always felt sorry for Judas because he really didn't have any choice in the whole scenario, his part was predestined. I just saw another opportunity for mercy to triumph over justice.
I know that's a consideration, but Mathias wasn't present when Jesus said "you 12". Judas was. Also I think it's important that Jesus chose Judas directly, personally. Mathias (though not "illegitimate") still, was chosen later (after Jesus' statement) by casting lots.
I said in my post "pray for your enemies". Which in a sense, at the time of the betrayal when satan entered Judas, he did become Jesus' enemy. However, I personally believe Judas was performing a role he had been chosen to play. Someone had to do it.
I know choice is involved in life, and I'm not saying I believe God "makes" us do every single little thing, including rebellion. I know obedience, seeking, guarding our heart, etc. is important. However, there are many verses that show God raises people up - even creates them - for specific reasons. Pharaoh is the obvious one, also the scripture about Him creating vessels of honor and vessels of dishonor. I've been amazed lately of how much the Psalms talks about God hardening a people, or turning their hearts away from Him etc. So again, i personally believe Judas was playing a role he had no other choice in, at least AT THAT SPECIFIC TIME.
So (among many other reasons related to UR, and also the verse quoted directly to Judas and the other 12) I don't see God tormenting forever the person who was doing what he had been appointed to do. I personally believe many/most things in this life are temporal - important for learning and future foundation - yet much of it will pass away. So IMO then, in the sense of the temporal pain and dishonor and self-disgust, "better for that man if he had not been born". However, our God is a God of renewal and restoration. He knows His plan and it is best. :2c:
Quote from: gluecht2 on December 31, 2018, 04:19:40 PM
What has become of Judas; the one who was better off not being born?
A figure of speech? Revelation by barest outline, shows two ages which follow this one, as we know, the Millennium, but what goes very missed (usually) is 'Day' of Judgment.
Keeping that in mind, when shall Psalm 22:27, for instance, be fulfilled?
- "
All the ends of the earth shall remember and turn to the LORD, and all the families of the nations shall worship before you."
https://biblehub.com/interlinear/psalms/22-27.htm - interlinear word for word w/ links to the greek words
quoted from Ps. 95:11, no time word in the verse.. If one hardens their heart they cannot enter His rest - makes sense.
And when shall Jesus complete the work of John 12:32 - "
And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all to Myself." https://biblehub.com/interlinear/john/12-32.htm - interlinear word for word w/ links to the greek words
And the verses like -
- "
It is written: “As surely as I live, says the Lord, every knee will bow before Me; every tongue will confess to God.”Word for word interlinear - https://biblehub.com/interlinear/romans/14-11.htm
The Greek, translated "confess" -
1843. exomologeó profess
Quote
– properly, fully agree and to acknowledge that agreement openly (whole-heartedly); hence, to confess ("openly declare"), without reservation (no holding back).
Quoted, of course from Isaiah - "By myself I have sworn, my mouth has uttered in all integrity a word that will not be revoked: Before me every knee will bow; by me every tongue will swear." / "make an oath/covenant" - https://biblehub.com/hebrew/7650.htm (https://biblehub.com/hebrew/7650.htm))
Every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.God bless!
p.s. - I read an article about those verses, and what it did was basically contradict the verses. (I hate that. Lol)
And of course one verse they used was from Hebrews, the phrase "they shall never enter My rest" - of course the word never, we will find is actually from aion, root word of eon.
Oops, actually there's no time word in the verse at all - https://biblehub.com/interlinear/hebrews/3-11.htm
Quote from: jabcat on January 02, 2019, 06:54:09 AM
And Jesus said to them, "Truly I say to you that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man shall sit down upon His throne of glory, you having followed Me, you also will sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel."
Beautiful. Forgiveness. Restoration. Forgive your enemies, pray for those who trespass against you.
The love of Jesus.
:thumbsup: I've never realized that before.. He spoke it to the 12.. (Matthias was later),
And as Sister D. has said, "God is love" and "love never fails" (never.) 1 Jn.4:8 and 1 Cor.13:8
Quote from: WhiteWings on January 01, 2019, 10:31:41 AM
Linguistically speaking it's debated who 'that man' is referring to. Jesus or Judas.
https://studybible.info/CLV/Mark%2014
Verse 21
seeing that the Son of Mankind is indeed going away according as it is written concerning Him, yet woe to that man through whom the Son of Mankind is being given up! Ideal were it for Him if that man were not born!"
Notice that 'Him' refers to Jesus.
There is a very detailed discussion about it somewhere on this forum. Or linking to a discussing on the Concordance site.
That's interesting..
Judas will not be in the first resurrection. He never did receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. That needs to happen to all those who are the saints and who will be raised at the first resurrection. The Holy Spirit came on the day of Pentecost, not before. When Jesus breathed on his disciples this was a promise of the coming of the Holy Spirit (John 20:22). Judas was no longer there. Therefore Judas, now dead (asleep) in Hades (the grave), awaits the resurrection to Judgement at which time he will be made right with Christ, enter the lake of fire, and thereafter be immortalized at the consummation when God becomes all in all. Consequently, he is not one of the twelve Apostles who are mentioned in Rev 21:14 as forming the foundation wall of the Holy City. It may well be the replacement of Judas which would make up the twelve. That may be Matthias. In all likely hood it is not the Apostle Paul. All this is dependent on our individual understanding of the progression of the ages and the events therein, up until the consummation. In matters such as these we may individually respectfully and peacefully agree to disagree. :2c: :2c:
What's your view of Judas being directly addressed by Jesus as "you 12"?
Also, I tend to believe he is already alive and well. :dsunny: "Whoever believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this"?
Admittedly I don't fully understand all the resurrection and judgment details and timelines, and I've been wondering lately if there are some other understandings. Either way, "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord". Which, IMO, along with "you 12" is written and has specific meaning, but it may be hard for us to grasp it all as exactly intended. :2c: :2c: :2c:, and yes, we will NOT divide over this. :bigGrin: :Peace2:
Amen brothers! That's a difference between the carnal character and the born again character/heart being confirmed to the character and heart of Jesus.
Besides if we love and agree with only those who see things exactly the way ones' self dies weqould care for no one!
It will however be great when we all are 100% aligned with His word/Truth w/o the differences. I'm sure we will all find we were right about some things and not as accurate about others.
As for me I have no problem with believing (or not for that matter) that believers never die.. whether asleep or conscious, for they are not believed to live on forever in torment. It's the combination of belief in inherent immortality and not all able to be saved, which birthed the idea of a hell, I believe. And those who "have Christ have life" and those who do not know Him, do not. (Imo) So, to me, whether believers live or die to the age, doesn't affect the UR/"good" news.
:Peace2: :friendstu:
PS - it's also possible Judas "believed" in Messiah Jesus and had a more correct understanding before
his last breath.. And since it's the/this (the Greek?) mortal body that separates us from total union and newness with Christ...
:)
Quote from: jabcat on January 07, 2019, 05:22:46 AM
Also, I tend to believe he is already *alive and well. "Whoever believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this"?
* in spirit - to return "with Christ and His saints" for the resurrection. 1 Thessalonians 3:13. (IMO - as of today :) )
James, I thought your original post was very sufficient without the editing!
Pat
Quote from: jabcat on January 07, 2019, 07:03:30 PM
:)
Quote from: jabcat on January 07, 2019, 05:22:46 AM
Also, I tend to believe he is already *alive and well. "Whoever believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this"?
* in spirit - to return "with Christ and His saints" for the resurrection. 1 Thessalonians 3:13. (IMO - as of today :) )
:Chinscratch: interesting.. i usually see 1 Thess3:13 as going with Zechariah 14:4 “on that day His feet upon mount of Olives” and 1 Thess 4 that at the resurrection, the dead rise first and then those believers still alive.. and they all “meet Him at His coming” and “His feet in that day stand on mount of Olives” thus all believers meet Him as He’s coming and all arrive with Him to vicinity of mount of Olives.
I guess I don’t believe we ever ‘go to heaven’! :faint:
But that the kingdom of, comes here.. I believe being at God’s throne.. until it is centered in New Jerusalem after the “all in all” event, to be metaphor for worshipping.. like in Rev chapter 7, the great crowd “coming out of tribulation” which I have no proof of - but believe they too are “sealed on their foreheads” (since most things God does is ultimately collective?) I think the phrase “the tribulation” is man made, though as with all things, I may be wrong, :mshock: (lol). I tend to think of imperfection/missing the mark/the wrong way, as
being tribulation (and apocalypse). And natural law that it be so, what with God being life itself, the very breath and spark of (imo) and also perfection (“as your Father in heaven is perfect”) making imperfection the opposite of life, hence death, all suffering (which He too, being life lives through - it all) and this life called tribulation.. and which seems logical to me can only (ever) result in apocalypse, in the current English sense of self imploding.. cannot endure, being imperfect and missing the mark, and built on sand. (But I know I’ve strayed in topic a little, prophecy being a rabbit hole I’m prone to falling into, lol.)
But I’m not escatologically futurist.. nor preterist.. but believe Revelation is a blend of both - the rider on white horse’s victorious ride being the gospel.. so definitely preterist (6 seals broken open, all preterist, along with Rev 13:13! :faint: But not His return.. But we are in agreement that Judas is “alive and well” even presently. Where I differ is I believe he and the rest are at rest, knowing nothing until they rise and are, with all other believers, forever with the Lord.
It’s a fascinating topic and study and it will surely be interesting when we find out the truth, or untruth, of all these different ways of understanding it/the earthly conclusion(? Which is also spiritual conclusion, both individual and collective..)
:Peace2:
I agree it's difficult to sort through. Some scriptures seem to indicate an existence on earth, "new earth" etc. I also think of these things though;
When he had led them out to the vicinity of Bethany, he lifted up his hands and blessed them. While he was blessing them, he left them and was taken up into heaven.
"In My Father's house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also."
"Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord."
I am thinking.....we can't die, because faith connects us to Jesus, and once connected, we join with Christ and become part of 'the body of Christ'. Jesus Christ is alive, nevermore to die, so that we are joined in His Resurrection, and I suppose God will not tear us apart from Him.
Ephesians 2:
1As for you, you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2in which you used to walk when you conformed to the ways of this world and of the ruler of the power of the air, the spirit who is now at work in the sons of disobedience. 3At one time we all lived among them, fulfilling the cravings of our flesh and indulging its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature children of wrath.
4But because of His great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5made us alive with Christ, even when we were dead in our trespasses. It is by grace you have been saved! 6And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with Him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7in order that in the coming ages He might display the surpassing riches of His grace, demonstrated by His kindness to us in Christ Jesus.
8For it is by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not from yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance as our way of life.
D.
Quote from: marie glen on January 09, 2019, 03:39:18 PM
Quote from: jabcat on January 07, 2019, 07:03:30 PM
:)
Quote from: jabcat on January 07, 2019, 05:22:46 AM
Also, I tend to believe he is already *alive and well. "Whoever believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this"?
* in spirit - to return "with Christ and His saints" for the resurrection. 1 Thessalonians 3:13. (IMO - as of today :) )
.. But we are in agreement that Judas is "alive and well" even presently. Where I differ is I believe he and the rest are at rest, knowing nothing until they rise and are, with all other believers, forever with the Lord.
And then there's "the thief on the cross":
[Luk 23:43 KJV] 43
And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.Sorry Dandelion, we were typing at the same time.
amen pat.
Quote from: Dandelion on January 10, 2019, 06:21:07 AM
I am thinking.....we can't die, because faith connects us to Jesus, and once connected, we join with Christ and become part of 'the body of Christ'. Jesus Christ is alive, nevermore to die, so that we are joined in His Resurrection, and I suppose God will not tear us apart from Him.
I really like that, it makes an impression on me.
This has been a good thread for me, because I had toyed with the thought of "soul sleep", but I guess I really see it as "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord". It's caused me to read some more on it, and I'm kind of liking the idea that refers to "sleep" and "death" for the believer at least, has to do with the earthly/physical body, not the spirit. That "death/sleeping" described how their body appears - in repose, resting - that's how it looks to us, and for earthly purposes/their ability to be present and interactive, that person is gone. But Paul had a dilemma. He could keep living in this earthly body and benefit the Lord, or he said he could "die" and go be with the Lord, which would benefit him. I can't get past the thought that that seemed immediate to him - not that he would sleep for 2,000 years. (I know the idea of "but to him, upon awakening, it would seem immediate. But it just doesn't sound like that's the real meaning to me [IMO]).
Anyway, good thought-provoking thread - even if it did start out about Judas. :o
Quote from: jabcat on January 11, 2019, 05:36:17 AM
This has been a good thread for me, because I had toyed with the thought of "soul sleep",
Another thing that's made more sense to me during the thread is the resurrection. For awhile I've thought, "so we're already somewhere, but then we come back and get resurrected"? So now it's like, "well, yes. Our spirit is living and returns to a body that is vivified/resurrected, leading to being granted immortality (either then or at a later point?). So that makes more sense now - the difference between the spirit living on while the body rests/sleeps - to be eventually raised at the last trump, in the twinkling of an eye. :) :dsunny:
I see all that as very possible.. except not for the not yet saved because to me that negates life and death as being opposites.. like in Deuteronomy, the verse which says something like 'I set before thee this day, life and death.. choose life..'
There's much logic brought out in the verses in this thread, but I think there are slight differences in how we see them.. in luke 23:43, the translators insert a comma - I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.. but we know originally there is no comma, punctuation. I've always assumed it reads more like 'verily I tell you today (breath) you will be with Me in paradise..
https://biblehub.com/interlinear/luke/23-43.htm
And when I read "I go to prepare a place for you' more in the sense of 'I go to be crucified so that where I am you may be also. In my Father's house are many abiding places.. I think of the resurrection as occurring at Hus return and believers 'meet Him at Hus coming' and to me that implies we finish the journey with Him back to Earth for the millennium.. "those that are His at His coming". I don't think of it as His ascending then back to heaven.. And "then comes the end when Jesus bands the kingdom over to the Father that He may be all in all' I think of as the time of Rev.21:1-5, when all and all things are made new, the total vilification (I think its called).
It's true Paul's saying to be absent the body is to be present with the Lord, but the verse can also read 'being in this body' and may have been his ruminating upon the differences between the two bodies.
And the verse in 1 Peter translated as Jesus visiting those who perished on the flood of Noah's day.. but I think the verse is saying He went via the Spirit and preached to them while the ark was being built. Which may be circular reasoning on my part.. I.e, it reads that way to me because of how I believe. But I always had to wonder why would He go only to those dead from the flood and preach? And the verses in the Greek are pretty confusing (1 Peter 3:18-20)
And if the dead are preachedto, or even if not, wouldn't there no longer be unbelievers. I mean if I died and was in a holding place awaiting reuniting with my body, etc. wouldn't I "believe"? And most after centuries, etc, wouldn't all that refinement have happened or be happening? I've always thought of "dying in ones sins" to mean one also rises still in their sins? And then why the space between "the rest of the dead rise not until after the thousand years"..? And the time of "all the ends of earth will remember and turn to the LORD" o think of as occurring during a set 'day' and not individually during an afterlife.. but during an afterlife, wouldn't they remember/recognize the LORD.. And so become part of thevresurrection of believers and not much need of a second one "after the thousand years".
I think part of the reason is I think of God's work - which appears chaotic, but only because of his letting things run their course (each individual 'wrong way') - as being very organized. And I've always figured all believer's education and service will continue in the millennium (and during judgment 'day'). I don't think of the believers of past generations as beginning that education ahead of the one current with Jesus' return. :dontknow:
That's just the way I think of it.. but either view makes no difference to UR :gsmile:
But eschatology, that's a different matter? :laughing7: Not that the idea of individual judgment days and belief the millennium is now or has been since the Holy Spirit given on Pentecost (almost 2 millennia ago) and not to say the Kingdom isn't always coming.. is in the act of coming and comes to us individually. But I think usually more in terms of things happening collectively - which is why I think of death the way I do. And I think of the Kingdom coming fully to Earth as occurring at a literal time of Rev.21:1-5.
But! It's possibly why Sheol of the OT - minus any later Jewish thoughts of it expressed for instance in the Talmud, was allowed to become hades/a place of the dead, in the New Testament.. but I still tend to think of the place of the dead and also "the lower part of the Earth, to be the grave.
:dontknow: :Peace2:
Thanks for a very good discussion!
:dsunny:
Quote from: jabcat on January 11, 2019, 05:36:17 AM
amen pat.
Quote from: Dandelion on January 10, 2019, 06:21:07 AM
I am thinking.....we can't die, because faith connects us to Jesus, and once connected, we join with Christ and become part of 'the body of Christ'. Jesus Christ is alive, nevermore to die, so that we are joined in His Resurrection, and I suppose God will not tear us apart from Him.
I really like that, it makes an impression on me.
This has been a good thread for me, because I had toyed with the thought of "soul sleep", but I guess I really see it as "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord". It's caused me to read some more on it, and I'm kind of liking the idea that refers to "sleep" and "death" for the believer at least, has to do with the earthly/physical body, not the spirit. That "death/sleeping" described how their body appears - in repose, resting - that's how it looks to us, and for earthly purposes/their ability to be present and interactive, that person is gone. But Paul had a dilemma. He could keep living in this earthly body and benefit the Lord, or he said he could "die" and go be with the Lord, which would benefit him. I can't get past the thought that that seemed immediate to him - not that he would sleep for 2,000 years. (I know the idea of "but to him, upon awakening, it would seem immediate. But it just doesn't sound like that's the real meaning to me [IMO]).
Anyway, good thought-provoking thread - even if it did start out about Judas. :o
A brilliant Pastor, that taught one of my Deacon-in-Training classes of the Missouri Synod Lutherans, taught us that while we are in earth, we exist in time. Here, our bodies lie in destruction and decay, but once we pass over to the other side, we exist in eternity time, which is a whole different experience. He taught us that everyone will already be together there, and there will be no 'waiting for Aunt Betsy to come and join us', etc. Everyone will be there, because in eternity, time apparently becomes basically meaningless.
That made a lot of sense to me, so from that night on, I held on to that thought.
We all know that clocks and total peace just don't go together! :rolllol:
D.
time as we know it[based on carbon dating/decay]will not exist.However markers..will.Jubilee for instance. Each one of us are God's gift
and inheritance to each other..and to provide abundant love and fellowship.When allourbillions have personally met and come to love/know
each other personally as our fellow family members...that is our first Jubilee..Our debt to love one-another has been-fore-given...and we
then spend some alone time on our personal estates. Sharing all that we are with each other and loving one another in our verybig
family..and our family relationships will bring us great joy and contentment.We also will have personal visits with our Father and
Mother on His personal estate. We have so very very much to look forward to! ABUNDANT life,love..a truly inexhaustible supply.
when a man's body is lowered into the ground of this earth..it is called son/set or son-down..just as the sun appears to descend into the earth.
and yet we know that on the other side..the sun/son is rising. When all ofus who have been sown in the fields of this earth[Zion's full
number] rise.we have a fully risen sun/son...we have a fully risen son/sun of the great eteral day[their sun will set no more]
the sun/son has been rising since Abel..and just as the literal sun slowly ascends into fullness..so,too,with men's spirit rising into
that great eternal day. :2c:
I wonder this all is connected to the 12 tribes.
There were 12 tribes + the Levites which were a tribe too but without land. Jesus had no place to lay His head.
Anyway the tribes Manasseh and Ephraim didn't exist from the start. That was the tribe of Joseph who split up in those two. Levites lost their land and it was given to Manasseh. Much more.
Reuben as first born lost half of his double portion because he slept with his father's slave girl. That portion was transferred to Joseph.
The predominant view is that the 12 tribes inscribed on the High Priests breastplate were those of the original 12 tribes. Most of the tribes messed up. Things (as described above changed) but it still were the original 12 that were on the breastplate.
Don't ask me why but I feel for years it's connected. 12+Levites, 12 + Jesus, tribes and apostles messing up. Etc
:Chinscratch: :dunno2:
14 total..countingJesus..12+Jesus..takeaway Judas[representing satan who kept no this abode in heaven]add Matthais and Paul=14
Enoch's time10 heavens...redemption you add 1/5th=12..but God give double for the 2equaling 4.[14].......but all of these will dwell
in the 12 heavens.Thus Jerusalem above is told to extend her tent poles..to make room that we may dwell.
the promised land had been formerly inhabited..just as Judas losing his position portrays satan and demons losing their dwelling place.
Satan accused our Father ofselfishness for not giving him and his offspring room to dwell..but Father has so many children,He needs it
Jacob/Israel supplant. :2c:
Tribes 14 too. The list of tribes differs for the 'goal'.
Spiritual:
Included: Joseph and Levi
Excluded: Manasseh and Ephraim
Worldly:
Included: Manasseh and Ephraim
Excluded: Joseph and Levi
But not sure if that's even possible to align with apostles.
Getting way off-topic, so'll I'll shutup now :-)
:thumbsup:
I always get a strange sense when I read what verses 16 and 17 say concerning the great crowd,
"..the sun shall not strike them, nor any heat; 17 for the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne will shepherd them and lead them to living fountains of waters. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes."
I understand and value greatly, the spiritual truth and angle (an understatement! Fountain of life!) but it always strikes me as possibly also being very literal. That living water is also fresh water ..Springs of? I always think artesian/underground springs of water, and no heat will scorch them. :gsmile: I can see the spiritual/inner meanings or levels of prophecy - "treasures old and new" - but I also see (the) literal of each metaphor and symbol, etc.. imo, all fitting perfectly together like jigsaw pieces, God's great lesson played out, only presently we are viewing the backside of the tapestry? :gsmile:
Quote from: WhiteWings on January 12, 2019, 07:29:31 PM
I wonder this all is connected to the 12 tribes.
There were 12 tribes + the Levites which were a tribe too but without land. Jesus had no place to lay His head.
Anyway the tribes Manasseh and Ephraim didn't exist from the start. That was the tribe of Joseph who split up in those two. Levites lost their land and it was given to Manasseh. Much more.
Reuben as first born lost half of his double portion because he slept with his father's slave girl. That portion was transferred to Joseph.
The predominant view is that the 12 tribes inscribed on the High Priests breastplate were those of the original 12 tribes. Most of the tribes messed up. Things (as described above changed) but it still were the original 12 that were on the breastplate.
Don't ask me why but I feel for years it's connected. 12+Levites, 12 + Jesus, tribes and apostles messing up. Etc
:Chinscratch: :dunno2:
I myself see the number twelve as a representation of a governing body ----- that in the comparison of tribes to disciples/apostles --- is the governing body many or is it One and when we factor in the aspect of law and grace (the two covenants) is our governing body ---
many of law or One of Grace?
and this I see in day four in Genesis one ----- in the greater light rules the day and the lesser light rules the night, which I myself do not think it is speaking of the moon simply because, the moon only reflects light, it is not the source of light that we see, I see it as a comparison of the one close source (the sun) and the many distant sources (the stars) and this is because we know that those who are at a distance from God do not fully know the potential of God's grace, but those who are close to the source of grace, know it fully, which is why we can see that all of mankind will be reconciled back to God and that those who are still at a distant from the fullness of grace don't see all of mankind being reconciled
and if you want to factor in the idea of the moon, it can reflect goodness, for we know the law is good, but it is not the source of goodness, that comes from Christ, which is why it is not works of the law, just obeying the law, it is the works of grace ---- the going beyond the limits of the law and forgive rather than condemn.
my :2c:
Amen! :thumbsup: I was looking at moon light one night and it looked like it was splashing down upon the landscape and a picnic table, and looked like liquid. It was a full moon (or thereabouts of course) and I was really struck with how beautiful "the reflected light" and the more fully it's reflected, the more beautiful.. Although my favorite moon is the crescent.. and I especially love the moon in the blue sky. I had a weird thing the other day, I was writing a blog post about the book of revelation which includes the sun and moon's light being decreased, when I remembered I hadn't let the chickens out yet. When I went outside it was so foggy the sun was white and I could look directly at it. For a second I thought, wait is that the moon.. But it was in a new moon phase.. When I latched the coop gate the sun was perfectly framed through the windows of a parked travel trailer. By time I looked back from the back stoop of the house a minute later, the sun was completely covered. It was pretty but strange.. ...That was a morning sky, i'm blessed to not only see sunsets from our front porch, but some months I can see the first sliver of the new moon.. which begins God's months, which I think is pretty kool.. but enough ruminating about the moon.. :offtopic: :laughing7:
Quote from: WhiteWings on January 12, 2019, 07:29:31 PM
... 12+Levites, 12 + Jesus..
:Chinscratch: :dunno2:
:Chinscratch: :thumbsup: ...the chosen? to believe during this life.
And learn and serve now and during the Lord's long second Advent? Like mirror type images? Two pages of an open book.. Like the law and grace.. Like the mantle of the faith is first worn by Israel, then by the new testament Christian's through this age.. (and towards the conclusion of the age? 144,000 of Israel "have the commandments of God and" (by then) "the testimony of Jesus"? -- Mt.23:39. (rev.12:17, chap. 12 being an insert)
12 tribes + Levites; Jesus + 12 :Chinscratch:
Which fits also the 144,000, the square root being 12,000.. the only square root I remember all these years.... How 12x12=144' and any of Israel brought to the faith during this lifetime, of course, are part of the 'chosen'/separated... To reign/serve with and under Jesus.
Very interesting..
Quote from: marie glen on January 13, 2019, 07:34:52 PM
Which fits also the 144,000, the square root being 12,000.. the only square root I remember all these years.... How 12x12=144' and any of Israel brought to the faith during this lifetime, of course, are part of the 'chosen'/separated...
Very interesting..
The square root of 144,000 is closer to 380.
Quote from: Patinak on January 13, 2019, 08:02:26 PM
Quote from: marie glen on January 13, 2019, 07:34:52 PM
Which fits also the 144,000, the square root being 12,000.. the only square root I remember all these years.... How 12x12=144' and any of Israel brought to the faith during this lifetime, of course, are part of the 'chosen'/separated...
Very interesting..
The square root of 144,000 is closer to 380.
Oh! You learn something new every day,! I figured if the square root of 144 is 12, I figured of 144,000 would be 1200 (12,000 being a typo, or senior moment, lol).. I find that strange. But I never was all that great at math..
https://socratic.org/questions/what-is-the-square-root-of-144
My thought was how the 144,000 are part of the 'chosen'/separated, during this lifetime, thus in agreement with WW's thoughts..
:gsmile:
Which my math made no sense as it's 12,000 x 12! :doh:
...But I still think the 12 x 12 / square root of 144 to be interesting. Idk why exactly..
I believe Judas went to hell when he died, but will one day be restored back to God.
I kind of believe that, except I think of hell as the grave, but the words got mixed up in translation. And I too believe Judas will be saved!
Because our heavenly Father is SO great! :HeartThrob: