Transponder says in bold type:
And what do you know? Let me put it another way; when you hear of a god that wants people to pray five times a day or one that needs offerings of clarified butter or perhaps one that doesn't think his priests should marry or another that considers prawns forbidden food, do you think 'yes-that's the one I know.' or is this 'god' a bit more non-specific?
Well, Transponder, to be honest, I don't think a lot about other people's idea of God. I'm focused on my relationship with Him. That might sound selfish but my little world is complex enough without me trying to analyze others'. I'm not a student of religion, although I have observed much of it first hand whether I liked it or not. :happygrin:
My relationship with God doesn't involve rules of do and don't. It's a relationship/friendship. He speaks to me and we talk. We do things together. But He's a very powerful friend and He has changed me. I feel Him inside me and around me, too. So in that respect, I also hold Him as Lord. I once was a drug dealer and a thief who was filled with all kinds of destructive thoughts and outward harm toward others. I was addicted to illegal drugs and alcohol also but He delivered me from all these things in a twinkling of an eye! :myahoo: I was then filled with love, light and joy! (A great exchange!) Everything looked brighter and my heart sang with hope! And then He began to talk to me and we've been talking ever since. It's been an incredible 28 year friendship where He lives in and through me! Me!? Whew! Amazing!
God is also very nurturing toward me- the only nurturing I can remember, so in that sense I hold Him respectfully and with honor as a parent. I ask a lot of Him without ever having to worry about over burdening Him. He's supernatural, so He never runs out of strength, energy or power! His love toward me is something I feel even more powerfully than the love other people show toward me. His love is more real to me than anything!
Transponder said:
I would like to hear about the 'god' you have in your head, not so much to debate you out of believing in it, but trying to see how this god-U-know relates to the God and Jesus of the Bible.
I find it interesting how you put 'God' in quotation marks and with a lower case 'g'. To me, that would be like me putting your closest friend in that low of a category- as if he/she is just an imaginary friend of yours that doesn't really exist or even deserve to be capitalized. Trans, God is as real to me as your closest friend is to you- possibly more so. I am very close to my husband; he's my second closest friend but God is closer because He knows my thoughts and He is always with me. My husband isn't. As to God being in my head, I suppose He is! He's in every part of me! :thumbsup:
Transponder said:
I can see it coming - "Well of course it is the JesusGod of the Bible, not because that is the one I was taught about but because that is the true one".
Trans, I would lovingly encourage you to not be so quick to "see it coming" from people and thus put words in their mouth. You might end up with more happy surprises that way! :girlheart:
If you really are interested in religion as a hobby, more people are apt to kindly help you with your hobby if you hold a respectful attitude toward what is precious to them.
God is my life and He is precious. You're precious, too, Trans!
:HeartThrob:
Hopeful/Holly
Quote from: hopeful on February 25, 2008, 03:21:51 PM
Transponder says in bold type:
And what do you know? Let me put it another way; when you hear of a god that wants people to pray five times a day or one that needs offerings of clarified butter or perhaps one that doesn't think his priests should marry or another that considers prawns forbidden food, do you think 'yes-that's the one I know.' or is this 'god' a bit more non-specific?
QuoteWell, Transponder, to be honest, I don't think a lot about other people's idea of God. I'm focused on my relationship with Him. That might sound selfish but my little world is complex enough without me trying to analyze others'. I'm not a student of religion, although I have observed much of it first hand whether I liked it or not. :happygrin:
My relationship with God doesn't involve rules of do and don't. It's a relationship/friendship. He speaks to me and we talk. We do things together. But He's a very powerful friend and He has changed me. I feel Him inside me and around me, too. So in that respect, I also hold Him as Lord. I once was a drug dealer and a thief who was filled with all kinds of destructive thoughts and outward harm toward others. I was addicted to illegal drugs and alcohol also but He delivered me from all these things in a twinkling of an eye! :myahoo: I was then filled with love, light and joy! (A great exchange!) Everything looked brighter and my heart sang with hope! And then He began to talk to me and we've been talking ever since. It's been an incredible 28 year friendship where He lives in and through me! Me!? Whew! Amazing!
God is also very nurturing toward me- the only nurturing I can remember, so in that sense I hold Him respectfully and with honor as a parent. I ask a lot of Him without ever having to worry about over burdening Him. He's supernatural, so He never runs out of strength, energy or power! His love toward me is something I feel even more powerfully than the love other people show toward me. His love is more real to me than anything!
This is not unfamiliar. I have also had this relationship with the voice in my head with which I commune, debate, reason, discuss and share my life. It is me. This thing about a life being transformed by Faith/religion/conversion is always a tricky one. I have no personal experience of it since any tendency to be "a drug dealer and a thief who was filled with all kinds of destructive thoughts and outward harm toward others" was negated by a sense of my place in human society and responsibility towards other.
Transponder said:
I would like to hear about the 'god' you have in your head, not so much to debate you out of believing in it, but trying to see how this god-U-know relates to the God and Jesus of the Bible. QuoteI find it interesting how you put 'God' in quotation marks and with a lower case 'g'. To me, that would be like me putting your closest friend in that low of a category- as if he/she is just an imaginary friend of yours that doesn't really exist or even deserve to be capitalized. Trans, God is as real to me as your closest friend is to you- possibly more so. I am very close to my husband; he's my second closest friend but God is closer because He knows my thoughts and He is always with me. My husband isn't. As to God being in my head, I suppose He is! He's in every part of me! :thumbsup:
I understand your views but my use of the small g is deliberate to make a distinction between what references the God of the Bible (what unequivically is,sich as references to God in the Bible, religious texts and debates) and what is not neccessarily that God, such as the first cause, the god-concept as applied to various religions, and the voice that people have in their heads. It is not meant to be demeaning, but is neccesarily avoiding making unverifiable assumptions about such things.
Transponder said:
I can see it coming - "Well of course it is the JesusGod of the Bible, not because that is the one I was taught about but because that is the true one".QuoteTrans, I would lovingly encourage you to not be so quick to "see it coming" from people and thus put words in their mouth. You might end up with more happy surprises that way! :girlheart:
I love surprises! I am always willing to be told I'm wrong. Am I wrong here? You didn't say.
QuoteIf you really are interested in religion as a hobby, more people are apt to kindly help you with your hobby if you hold a respectful attitude toward what is precious to them.
God is my life and He is precious. You're precious, too, Trans!
:HeartThrob:
Hopeful/Holly
I don't mind whether people help me or not. I cannot be morally blackmailed into adopting a respectful attitude to what people hold precious to the extent of amending what I believe to be true because some might be offended. I try to be respectful to people whatever their beliefs but, if I think something to be so, such as the voice in the head being 'god' rather than Biblegod, or the likelihood that the voice is identified with Biblegod because of cultural programming - if not contact with some evangelical operation) then I have to say so.
(edited today to take my comments out of quote)
Trans,
You're 'voice in your head' comments are interesting because 'voices' can range all the way from simple conscience to schizophrenia, and so proves nothing. From your perspective it seems you assume that you've heard the same voice that many attribute to God, but you didn't react the way someone with a predisposition toward it being the voice of God would.
May I ask what you've heard that another with a predisposition toward God would interprete as being the voice of God?
blessings,
- Byron
Hopeful Wrote
QuoteWell, Transponder, to be honest, I don't think a lot about other people's idea of God. I'm focused on my relationship with Him. That might sound selfish but my little world is complex enough without me trying to analyze others'. I'm not a student of religion, although I have observed much of it first hand whether I liked it or not. happygrin
My relationship with God doesn't involve rules of do and don't. It's a relationship/friendship. He speaks to me and we talk. We do things together. But He's a very powerful friend and He has changed me. I feel Him inside me and around me, too. So in that respect, I also hold Him as Lord. I once was a drug dealer and a thief who was filled with all kinds of destructive thoughts and outward harm toward others. I was addicted to illegal drugs and alcohol also but He delivered me from all these things in a twinkling of an eye! Yahoo I was then filled with love, light and joy! (A great exchange!) Everything looked brighter and my heart sang with hope! And then He began to talk to me and we've been talking ever since. It's been an incredible 28 year friendship where He lives in and through me! Me!? Whew! Amazing!
God is also very nurturing toward me- the only nurturing I can remember, so in that sense I hold Him respectfully and with honor as a parent. I ask a lot of Him without ever having to worry about over burdening Him. He's supernatural, so He never runs out of strength, energy or power! His love toward me is something I feel even more powerfully than the love other people show toward me. His love is more real to me than anything!
Wonderful post sister :HeartThrob: :girlheart:
Thanks, Christine. :HeartThrob:
Being asked to tell someone about the God I know is a privilege but fitting a 28 year relationship into just one post isn't easy. :Sparkletooth:
Quote from: Transponder on February 29, 2008, 08:15:45 AM
I love surprises! I am always willing to be told I'm wrong. Am I wrong here? You didn't say.
Hi, transponder.
I'm not into telling people whether they are right or wrong.
I can't live in peace with all men when I do that. I might ask someone to refrain from doing something though.
:HeartThrob:
Quote from: firstborn888 on February 29, 2008, 12:40:01 PM
Trans,
You're 'voice in your head' comments are interesting because 'voices' can range all the way from simple conscience to schizophrenia, and so proves nothing. From your perspective it seems you assume that you've heard the same voice that many attribute to God, but you didn't react the way someone with a predisposition toward it being the voice of God would.
May I ask what you've heard that another with a predisposition toward God would interprete as being the voice of God?
blessings,
- Byron
That's true, but the fact that they all occur 'in the head' would indicate, would it not, that it all emanates from the head? In fact, even before I had heard of the studies on 'voices' which indicated a mental origin, reading deconversion stories gave me quite a lot of evidence that - as one deconvert put it in a way that I regard as summing it all up - "I thought for so long that I was talking to God, but I realized in the end that I was just talking to myself".
However, I do recall that I said to Hopeful that I wanted to hear about her god not to argue her out of it but to find out why she thinks this 'god' is to be identified with the God (or one of them) of the Bible. So I shall ask her.
Quote from: hopeful on February 29, 2008, 02:58:12 PM
Quote from: Transponder on February 29, 2008, 08:15:45 AM
I love surprises! I am always willing to be told I'm wrong. Am I wrong here? You didn't say.
Hi, transponder.
I'm not into telling people whether they are right or wrong. I can't live in peace with all men when I do that. I might ask someone to refrain from doing something though.
:HeartThrob:
:winkgrin: I am asking to you to back up your comment here - "Trans, I would lovingly encourage you to not be so quick to "see it coming" from people and thus put words in their mouth. You might end up with more happy surprises that way! :girlheart:"
by answering my query "I love surprises! I am always willing to be told I'm wrong. Am I wrong here?"
Wrong about my guess as to what I saw coming - that you know the god in your head is the God of the Bible, not because you were told it was or because it told you it was, but because you just knew it, or assumed it. If I am wrong here I would have a better understanding of how people make this leap from universal creator to Biblegod because this god in the head is identified with Biblegod and the god in the head must be the creator.
That to me is a circular argument based on three big assumptions. But I would like to know it if I am wrong - and you would be helping me if you could - shall we say - further explain the subject of the thread - by telling me
(a) how you know your god in the head (I am using the term advisedly for clarity of identification) is to be identified
specifically with the God of the Bible.
(b) Or whether it could be a more general god that could also be known, mentally, to persons of other religions and assumed by them to identified with the god as described in their Holy Books
(c) whether the circumstances of conversion (partially described by you) involved others encouraging you to turn to Biblegod (or Jesusgod, as some say) for assistance with your problems.
I realize that this may be a personal matter for you (though you were almost eager to detail the former lifestyle from which you turned, thanks to God) and I am not going to jump on anything you might say with 'Aha-that proves it's all in the head'. Your convictions are your own. I am Just curious - indeed, it is need-to-know information - about how the voice in the head is so easily identified with Biblegod.
Hopeful, I just now Sunday morn read what you said here:
Quote
I'm not into telling people whether they are right or wrong. I can't live in peace with all men when I do that. I might ask someone to refrain from doing something though.
Wisdom. The only "time" one should do that is when GOD has told them to. And I sure
am glad He has ways of telling that to people besides ME doing it. I am like you, I
can't live in peace doing that. I see lots of things, and I think: "He looked beyond my
faults and saw my needs" Besides I know that God has set this thing UP so that in
each of our lives, circumstances are used by Him to teach us all.
I want to turn on the Light, not point out the dark!
:cloud9: Good post, Hopeful......... :thumbsup:
Sorry, Trans, but you're asking the wrong girl! :tease:
Just reading your last post makes me dizzy! :ghaha:
Dizzy or not, I read through it a few times and asked the Lord if I should try and reply but He's given me nothing to answer.
Maybe someone else would enjoy trying to answer you.
Have a great day!
:boogie:
:cloud9: Hi Trans, good to "see" you again. I'll answer your "a,b,c's" there with my part of my initial testimony experience with God. This is going to be on the long side, so please bear with me. But every word of it is the truth, believe it or not.
:cloud9: I was not church raised, my father was an athiest or an agnostic, depending I think, on his mood that day. My mother was raised Catholic, but was a non-practicing one, as my Father had a particular hatred of Catholics and Jews, so he converted her to his state of unbelief in anything higher than himself. So my point is, I was about the blankest slate you could ever hope to write on in the middle of the Bible belt here. I had never read the Bible, nor did I believe it was God inspired having been told all my life it was not, or if it was, knowing the tendencies of men, I figured it was majorly tampered with and impossible to know what He really said. Yet I hungered for Truth, something to believe in, anything viable, all of my life to that point. The good part of this dismal beginning is, I also had no doctrines at all to tear down, no preconceived ideas of anything.
:cloud9: I was just short of my 30th birthday and my life was quite literally hell. I had just witnessed my best friend being attacked in the process of being possessed by a demon, and in addition to that I was miserable in a destructive marriage, and now I am quite literally keeping her company running from nightly demonic attacks. I would not have left my worst enemy to suffer that alone, and though terrified myself, I would not leave her to face it alone, either.
:cloud9: Though a very strong willed and fearless individual all my life up to that fateful night, I am now cowering under lights all night, afraid to go to sleep until daylight, even afraid to walk thru the dark to get in my car. This took a toll on the night-time paralegal classes I was enrolled in, as I had missed 2 weeks of them after this happened for the above reason. I just knew I would never make it home alive if I went, and I was right.
:cloud9: I had to go finally because 13 days after the experience I had to take a final exam. The classes were taught by lawyers, there were no textbooks on purpose, it was all notes from class or nothing and the exams were 3 and 1/2 hour long essay tests; all test cases in which you would have to determine who would win the case based on the applicable laws and by-laws, and needless to say if you missed 2 weeks of classes you were looking at failing the exam because you did not have the instruction on the section of law covered. :sigh:
:cloud9: So I am a basket case for all of the above, seeing my A- average about to fall to flunking out of the program and it's not like I can go tell the lawyer instructor why I missed classes, without the certainty of being sent to the funny farm. :laughing7: So on the way there, terrified of the dark, at the lowest point in my life, I cried out to the "unknown" God. I had no idea of any salvation doctrine, never heard of it. Didn't know if Jesus could actually help me, as to me, though I did believe He was probably the son of God just from watching the old biblical movies, to me He was nothing more than a historical person who lived.
:cloud9: It had to be the Spirit of God prompting me, because near the end of this hour plus long trip of crying, outlining all of my insurmountable problems, not the least of which imagining a future life of being in constant fear, I remembered later saying, "And Jesus, IF you can do anything, I want You to come into my heart and take over my life because I don't care if I live another day, I can't live like this." I immediately calmed down, and pulled it together somehow for the last 20 minutes of the drive.
:cloud9: I went into the class, took the exam of which I found out I had missed a full third of the exam content. The funny thing was, I wrote for 3 and 1/2 hours, and could not tell you what I wrote when I was done. And I got a B+ on the exam, which when you consider there were 100 students and only 5 to 6 A's given per exam due to the extremely hard grading curve, that was a flat out impossibility for someone who did not have 1/3 of the materials to begin with. That was my first miracle.
:cloud9: The second one was the drive home. I lived to tell about it, that was the miracle. I had by now, a too familiar visitor, who plastered itself on the roof of my car and then hung it's head over the windshield right in front of my face. Now I had been begging the "unknown" God for the past 13 days not to ever let me see it's face again, because I told Him I knew if I did, I would lose my mind. But before that happened, when I got in my car that night, it ran just fine about 4 blocks, just enough to get me into a bad section of Indy, and then sputtered and quit for no apparent reason; it had been fine before this.
:cloud9: The only prayer I knew was the Lord's prayer I had learned from my grandmother who made me say it every night when I was staying with her, unbeknownest to my Father. I said the Lord's prayer, because I could feel the presence already of the demon and knew it had done something to my car. The car started up, after I said this prayer a few times, and off I drove, only to be confronted, quite literally head on. The Lord had mercy upon me, because I did not see the details I had in the hotel room the night she was attacked, but instead saw a dark form only. But it was still terrifying, and had I seen IT right in front of my face suddenly, I probably would have run off the road and been killed.
:cloud9: So I continued praying the Lord's prayer all the way home. When I got home, since I had had to tell my mother and my husband what had happened in that hotel room and all things after that, when my husband got home from work about 10 minutes after I did, I told him somewhat calmly, that he needed to check my car as the demon had messed with it on my way home. He gave me that same strained testy look I had been getting from everyone I tried to tell what had happened to me to make me stay up all night cowering under lights, and went out to look under the hood. At that point, no one believed me, but my friend who had experienced it herself with me. So he comes in testier than ever in five minutes and asks me just how did I get home, who brought me? I said, I drove home. He argued with me I couldn't have. I said, the engine's still hot isn't it? He said, there's no way you got home in that car, every spark plug has been tampered with, it won't even turn over. I responded cheerfully as only someone who had finally been vindicated could, I TOLD you the demon did it. :happygrin:
:cloud9: I'm sure plans were being made at that point to put me in a pudding farm :winkgrin:. But it was nothing compared to what I was to experience next as God displayed His awesome power and saving grace. The next morning when I awoke, it was as though I was literally looking at the world for the first time. My room was bathed in a glorious light that was not natural as it was a darkened room. I was aware that I was sort of vibrating inside, unaware that the Word said He would quicken our mortal bodies, which means to speed them up. Add to that my spiritual eyes were opened, and later in the day I actually could see thru my body and behold my spiritual man which was composed of cells of light, all of which were vibrating really, really fast, and I had no sensation of body mass or weight at all. I woke up and had no desire to eat, but had never heard of a fast. I didn't eat the entire 10 days this anointing, which I also never heard of, was on me.
:cloud9: And the "unknown" God was now speaking to me, as thoughts that I knew were not my thoughts, but I was unsure until the 3 day who it was that was speaking to me when it was so loud it seemed nearly audible. The most shocking thing about it was, it was days later before I beheld what He had spoken to me in a book I had never read, and it was verbatim! Even as a babe, there's no doubt when God speaks to you and you feel the washing of His Spirit pouring over you like water, and ever syllable He speaks seems to go right thru your mortal body.
:cloud9: Still, I had no idea what it was that had happened to me. I literally thought I must be getting ready to have a nervous breakdown, but I couldn't understand if that was true, then how come I woke up with what could only be described as great joy, something I had never known before? And I also woke up with a desire to read the Bible, which I never had before and I read it for hours a day now, with understanding, sobbing thru the whole thing.
:cloud9: This prompted my desire to know what my Baptist friend who was backslidden, but at least knew the Bible somewhat, thought about God, and even stranger, a sudden desire to ask her to take me to church with her on Sunday and this was Friday morning. The odd thing about that is I had always refused to go before, now I'm asking to, and even weirder I am totally unaware there's anything different about this request, it seemed perfectly normal to me.
:cloud9: But I was anything but my normal self at that point. I was, quite literally, a different person in my attitudes and personality when I woke up, and it was obvious to everyone but me. But what WAS obvious to me were the inexplainable physical and perception changes I was experiencing. My mother, had no idea what was wrong with me, and became quite concerned when I told her what I was experiencing. I had to. She had just turned around in time to see me gingerly approaching the refrigerator with my hand, because of the fact I was only aware of my spirit man and had loss the sense of bodily mass, I was testing it to see if my hand would go thru solid objects. No, I am NOT kidding. :mshock:
:cloud9: So Sunday rolls around, and I go to church with my friend. On the way up there, I start asking her questions about how does she know she's going to heaven exactly, how could you know that? She begins to tell me the Baptist doctrine of salvation telling me you first go down in front of the church. I stop her right there and tell her I don't believe that God is a Baptist, LOL. She says no, you can have this experience anywhere, even by yourself you just pray and ask Jesus to come into your heart and forgive you your sins and take over your life. I literally had one of these moments..... :idea2: I said, well if that's true, then I did that Thursday nite on the way to paralegal class! She started crying and said I KNEW there was something different about you on Friday when you came to ask me to take you to church, but I didn't know what it was.
:cloud9: So we go in her church, and as soon as the children's choir who started singing first, sang, I was reduced to a bawling mess. I continued to cry thru the ENTIRE service, unable to quit. After 15 minutes, my friend was crying too. At the end, the pastor asked for anyone to come forward for invitation. I felt immediately I was to go, but had no idea what that meant. After 4 calls for it, since it was painfully obvious to everyone in there, just WHO God was dealing with, the Spirit practically pushed me out of the pew. I asked my friend, I know I'm supposed to go down there, but what do I do when I get there? She told me she would go with me, and the backslidden Baptist found God again that day.
:cloud9: From there we went to Indy, an 90 mile day trip. At 5 pm, the Lord spoke to me plainly telling me He wanted me to go to another woman's church I knew who rented a part of our business building we owned. There were 2 problems with this request. I didn't know where exactly the church was, the name of it, and it was 90 miles away. I told my friend what He said, and she agreed to take me there. I told her what exit to pull off on and I would look it up in the phone book, as I only remember the woman telling me her pastor's first name, and I thought there can't be too many pastor's with a Larry first name in a city of 50,000. Wrong. :laughing7: There were 3. I said, Lord, it's almost time for it to start, she said she won't go in late, and I've only got one chance to get her/us in the right church, so You better show me which Larry it is. And it was like the name lept off the page at me, and the church was only 4 blocks away. He had led me to the right exit.
:cloud9: We go in, and I'm not sure if it's the right church until I see the woman I know, at the front on the organ. Sigh of relief, it's the right place. They are singing when we come in, in praise and worship. After a few minutes, my friend is freaking out bigtime, beating on my arm, telling me we have to get out of there. I am confused and ask her why, because I'm thinking, isn't this great? Yesterday I read Acts 2 and Joel and today He shows me there are still people experiencing these things almost 2000 years later! She, on the other hand, raised southern Baptist, is having a mini breakdown, telling me this is not of God, it's of Satan and spit, gag, THIS IS A PENTECOSTAL CHURCH! I am oblivious to the big picture here obviously and ask her, "What is a pentecostal church, I've never heard of that?"
:cloud9: I defer to my new best friend. In my mind, I say, "God? She's known you a lot longer than I have. Is she right?" He said, "Didn't you read it in my Word yesterday?" I said, "Yes, Lord I did." I said to her, "Did you know it's in Acts 2 and Joel about this?" She was frustrated, and offered up another disclaimer. Again, I ask God. Again, comes the same answer. Again she offers up another rebuff, telling me she'll leave me there if I don't leave with her right now. I told her to go ahead, He wanted me there, I'm there and I'll walk 45 miles home if I have to, I'm not going anywhere. She sulks. The Lord said to me, "Tell her to take it out of my Word, if she dares." I tell her. She has been kept informed by me daily, what chapters I have read. She knows I have not read the book of Revelation yet. She turns white, and does not open her mouth again for the rest of the service. I'm not sure why at that point, but I am grateful for the break from her beating on my arm. :winkgrin:
:cloud9: The pastor gets up finally, and says he does not know what is going on, he had prepared his entire sermon that afternoon for 3 hours, and the Lord just told him he was not to speak on it, and he said I don't know where we are going, but we're going with the Lord today. And he began to speak on demons and deliverance, the baptism of the Holy Ghost, and the power of God, as if every word was tailored for us and what we had just been thru. There was no way he could have known. We were enraptured. At the end, he asked for anyone wanting more of God to come forward and raise their hands to receive. I was the first person up there, I nearly flew out of my seat. Towards the end I looked back to see what had happened to my friend, I figured this was too much for her and I had probably been dumped by now. To my surprise, she was standing in the back, arms raised, tears streaming down her face. That day she was no longer a southern Baptist.
:cloud9: Now once I began to read the Word and identified scripture had dictated the outcome of what was my isolated experience, I reasoned that if that scripture were true, then maybe I should put another one to the test. So I read that we need not that any man should teach us, and that the Holy Spirit would teach us and bring all things to our remembrance, and I decided this would be the next one I would put to the test. So I asked the Lord to teach me thru His Spirit, not having a clue how that could or would be accomplished. It wasn't long before I discovered how. It took about 3 trips thru the NT to find out. As I read in one part of the book, another seemingly unconnected scripture would pop into my mind out of nowhere. When I would leave the first, to check out the second, to my amazement, they WERE connected in content even if that content was not readily visible. This happened over and over until one day it dawned on me (also a thought from God) that THIS is the beginning of how the Spirit teaches.
:cloud9: It has been a long 22 year journey of amazing discoveries of the character, nature and power of God, but there has been no doubt in my mind, or in the minds of anyone that knew me before, that truly God is the author and the finisher of our faith. I am not the same person that existed prior to May 8th, 1986, nor would I ever want to be.
:cloud9: My Catholic mother was brought to her knees to know the living God 30 days after I did, in part because she was confronted with someone she did not know anymore.........ME. My X husband, though he ultimately turned his back on Him as nearly 2000 years of idol worship in his family proved to be too strong a draw for him, nevertheless received Him 6 weeks after I did. The rest of my mother's large Catholic family received Him within 4 years of our conversion.
:cloud9: I was used to lead my then 95 year old grandmother to the Lord, the weekend my mother received Him. My athiest father received him 2 months before he died, many years later. That was my one request and my first prayer to the Lord, was that He please save my father before he died. Myself and a longtime friend of his were used to do that as he lay in the hospital. I found out from this friend of his, that the Lord had had no less than 15 close friends surrounding him, that were born again Christians, planting seeds in his life for all those years leading up to his acceptance of the living God. Our God is faithful. Blessings to all who have waded thru this long post, LOL........
Card! It was NOT a "wade thru".......it was a reminder, I have known people that were
called to the specific ministry that YOU were, and they experienced some of these things.
Those things that we experience "but for a moment" work for us a GREAT and MIGHTY
Weight of HIS Glory!
And I myself have experieced that "quickening" in the body. I knew what that was, tho
it was happening to me in my sleep. Almost everything does. ha I guess the Lord has
to knock me out. Enjoyed reading your journey and may God bless and keep you. For
you are blessing many people. God is REAL!
That was a wonderful read, Cardinal. I have also experienced many similar things, and different also. I feel so privileged and blessed to have this wonderful friend. When people say, "Jesus saves," they are not talking about some abstract thing in the future, they are talking about the here and now. He literally and personally stepped in and saved my life.
Like RED says, "God is Real"!
30 Then the angel said to her, "Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. 31 And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bring forth a Son, and shall call His name JESUS. 32 He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Highest; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David. 33 And He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of His kingdom there will be no end." --Luke 1
"JESUS"
G2424
Ἰησοῦς
Iēsous
ee-ay-sooce'
Of Hebrew origin [H3091]; Jesus (that is, Jehoshua), the name of our Lord and two (three) other Israelites: - Jesus.
H3091
יהושׁע יהושׁוּע
yehôshûa‛ yehôshûa‛
yeh-ho-shoo'-ah, yeh-ho-shoo'-ah
From H3068 and H3467; Jehovah-saved; Jehoshua (that is, Joshua), the Jewish leader: - Jehoshua, Jehoshuah, Joshua. Compare H1954, H3442.
H3467
ישׁע
yâsha‛
yaw-shah'
A primitive root; properly to be open, wide or free, that is, (by implication) to be safe; causatively to free or succor: - X at all, avenging, defend, deliver (-er), help, preserve, rescue, be safe, bring (having) salvation, save (-iour), get victory.
:cloud9: Amen Ladies, yes He is.........
Quote from: Transponder on March 02, 2008, 12:42:15 PM
Quote from: firstborn888 on February 29, 2008, 12:40:01 PM
Trans,
You're 'voice in your head' comments are interesting because 'voices' can range all the way from simple conscience to schizophrenia, and so proves nothing. From your perspective it seems you assume that you've heard the same voice that many attribute to God, but you didn't react the way someone with a predisposition toward it being the voice of God would.
May I ask what you've heard that another with a predisposition toward God would interprete as being the voice of God?
blessings,
- Byron
That's true, but the fact that they all occur 'in the head' would indicate, would it not, that it all emanates from the head? In fact, even before I had heard of the studies on 'voices' which indicated a mental origin, reading deconversion stories gave me quite a lot of evidence that - as one deconvert put it in a way that I regard as summing it all up - "I thought for so long that I was talking to God, but I realized in the end that I was just talking to myself".
However, I do recall that I said to Hopeful that I wanted to hear about her god not to argue her out of it but to find out why she thinks this 'god' is to be identified with the God (or one of them) of the Bible. So I shall ask her.
Trans, the question I asked is was "May I ask what you've heard (in your head) that another with a predisposition toward God would interprete as being the voice of God?"
- byron
This probably won't help anything, but I never hear the voice of God in my head. In fact, when I need wisdom, I often will pray in the spirit until the voices in my head stop so I can hear God's voice instead. Jesus said that "out of our bellies will flow rivers of living water". Maybe that is where I got it, but I believe that my spirit is located in my center or belly.
I know it sounds weird, but it is what it is. In intercession, you can experience groanings like labor pains. Heb. 4:12 talks about discerning between our soul and our spirit. Voices in our head are in the soul and can be the enemy. However, there is a spirit in man and the inspiration of the Almighty gives us understanding. This wisdom or inspiration seems to seap up from the inside when the voices in the head are quieted.
John
Quote from: Kratos on March 03, 2008, 07:32:31 AM
This probably won't help anything, but I never hear the voice of God in my head. In fact, when I need wisdom, I often will pray in the spirit until the voices in my head stop so I can hear God's voice instead. Jesus said that "out of our bellies will flow rivers of living water". Maybe that is where I got it, but I believe that my spirit is located in my center or belly.
I know it sounds weird, but it is what it is. In intercession, you can experience groanings like labor pains. Heb. 4:12 talks about discerning between our soul and our spirit. Voices in our head are in the soul and can be the enemy. However, there is a spirit in man and the inspiration of the Almighty gives us understanding. This wisdom or inspiration seems to seap up from the inside when the voices in the head are quieted.
John
Yes, that still small voice comes from somewhere a little deeper, doesn't it John?
- byron
great stuff everyone! Card, thanks for sharing your testimony - WOW :HeartThrob:
I hear Gods voice many different ways. Sometimes it feels like my own thoughts yet it is a thought I would not usually have. Sometimes I will get a complete "Knowing or understanding " of something before me. Many times He speaks to me in pictures - I get these visual pictures (mostly for people) and when I explain what I see to the person it is something about their childhood or life. Sometimes I get this deep belly feeling of urgency to speak something.
God speaks in many ways, why? I think its His desire that we listen in all ways for that still small voice. It seems God is not much into routine :laughing7:
PEACE and LOVE
:cloud9: What you are describing is exactly how He deals with me, LT, just add some dreams in there, and you've got the God I know....... :thumbsup:
Quote from: Cardinal on March 03, 2008, 03:37:16 PM
:cloud9: What you are describing is exactly how He deals with me, LT, just add some dreams in there, and you've got the God I know....... :thumbsup:
Hehehehe, I was going to put dreams too but they are very seldom :laughing7:
Why does it not surprise me that you get the same? Seems you and I are wired the same, same giftings and such? It would really be neat to meet you face to face one day :thumbsup:
:cloud9: Yes, I believe we are. And I would love to meet everyone on here someday. By the grace of God maybe we will all get to meet one another in the flesh somehow. If not, for sure we have all met in the Spirit :happygrin:
Quote from: firstborn888 on March 02, 2008, 10:22:54 PM
Quote from: Transponder on March 02, 2008, 12:42:15 PM
Quote from: firstborn888 on February 29, 2008, 12:40:01 PM
Trans,
You're 'voice in your head' comments are interesting because 'voices' can range all the way from simple conscience to schizophrenia, and so proves nothing. From your perspective it seems you assume that you've heard the same voice that many attribute to God, but you didn't react the way someone with a predisposition toward it being the voice of God would.
May I ask what you've heard that another with a predisposition toward God would interprete as being the voice of God?
blessings,
- Byron
That's true, but the fact that they all occur 'in the head' would indicate, would it not, that it all emanates from the head? In fact, even before I had heard of the studies on 'voices' which indicated a mental origin, reading deconversion stories gave me quite a lot of evidence that - as one deconvert put it in a way that I regard as summing it all up - "I thought for so long that I was talking to God, but I realized in the end that I was just talking to myself".
However, I do recall that I said to Hopeful that I wanted to hear about her god not to argue her out of it but to find out why she thinks this 'god' is to be identified with the God (or one of them) of the Bible. So I shall ask her.
Trans, the question I asked is was "May I ask what you've heard (in your head) that another with a predisposition toward God would interprete as being the voice of God?"
- byron
Everything. As Cardinal's fascinating account shows above, with the cultural pump-priming of the particular brand of Christianity available locally, the various mental activities that any of us have can easily be represented as the voice of God.
:cloud9: That might be so Trans, except for one thing. My mind could not quote several lines out of the OT which I had never read before, nor heard of, as He did 3 days after I met the God of the Book. Blessings to you........ :thumbsup:
Quote from: Cardinal on March 05, 2008, 06:07:10 AM
:cloud9: That might be so Trans, except for one thing. My mind could not quote several lines out of the OT which I had never read before, nor heard of, as He did 3 days after I met the God of the Book. Blessings to you........ :thumbsup:
I always get stumped by those who trot out a supposed miracle which proves the reality of something. It puts me on the back foot immediately as I am disinclined to cast doubt on a personal experience of that kind. It really puts me in the position of explaining away evidence in the same way that logical arguments to discount Astrology, Palmistry, Spirit mediums and the like fall flat before claims that an astrologer told her (so often 'her') things about her grandmother's illness which the seer could not possibly have known, a palmist predicted events in her life which came about with astonishing accuracy, a spirit medium told her (ok, him, this time) where to find a hidden will...
And, though we hear various explanations of how these things, with a bit a retelling, sound more amazing, perhaps, than they actually were, it does leave the skeptic in the position of explaining away evidence.
What, I wonder, were these three lines from the OT? I am sure you remember. Are you quite sure that you could never have heard them before? You are really telling me that, in central Indiana, you never had the OT quoted at you, even in younger years that perhaps you forgot about?
Quote from: Kratos on March 03, 2008, 07:32:31 AM
This probably won't help anything, but I never hear the voice of God in my head. In fact, when I need wisdom, I often will pray in the spirit until the voices in my head stop so I can hear God's voice instead. Jesus said that "out of our bellies will flow rivers of living water". Maybe that is where I got it, but I believe that my spirit is located in my center or belly.
I know it sounds weird, but it is what it is. In intercession, you can experience groanings like labor pains. Heb. 4:12 talks about discerning between our soul and our spirit. Voices in our head are in the soul and can be the enemy. However, there is a spirit in man and the inspiration of the Almighty gives us understanding. This wisdom or inspiration seems to seap up from the inside when the voices in the head are quieted.
John
I am no expert on the voices in the head phenomenon, but such an effect would not surprise me. The many voices that some hear (I only ever hear one) may well be silenced by mental effort allowing one of the voices - or perhaps one's own consciousness - to take the floor. In the end, the same effect (I must assume) occurs in the context of other religions or of none. Therefore, I can't consider it as evidence for - much less proof of - Christianity, even if there were not reasons to doubt that it was the voice of an intelligect creator.
:cloud9: I won't share the Word He gave me Trans, but I will tell you I never heard it before, and it was 4 months before I found another part of it was even in the Bible. I had asked at least 5 pastors at this time what one unusual word of this Word meant, and not one of them even told me it was in the Bible, nor did they know what it meant. I stumbled across it myself, in my Strong's concordance 4 months later.
He spoke it to me in the shower, and it was the oddest sensation, as I felt the water of the shower pouring over me AND the water of the Spirit pouring over me at the same time. I came upstairs and asked my mother if she knew if there was anyone in the Bible by this name, and what was it about him? She didn't know, either. Catholics back then at least in her parish, were being told not to read the Bible as only a biblical scholar could understand it :sigh:, a fact her brother confirmed to me also, later. Thus, they never learned it, either.
And while I fully understand your skepticism (remember I was a skeptic too), and I think you're missing a piece to the puzzle. True, all those counterfeits, the spirits behind them are capable of giving out some correct information to the ones that go to them. But for every counterfeit that exists, there is a reality in God's Spirit that has been mimicked but not duplicated, because Satan can only mimic what God has, but never duplicate it. I'm telling you here what the reality is, and it's not a counterfeit. I do appreciate you're being kind about your disagreement with me, however........Blessings to all.....
The God I know is the ONLY one that hath delivered,
doth deliver, and shall yet deliver.
He is unlike any other VOICE I have ever heard.
He is not a "man" that He should lie.
I hold to His Word for it is my ONLY hope!
If in this life only, we have hope, we are of all men MOST Miserable.
What did Jesus use to overthrow satan? "It is written."
Take up your cross. . and follow me, to the place where
there is NOT one........for the things "written" concerning ME
have an end..........there is no end to the reign........but
there is an end to the suffering. Be thou faithful unto death
and I will give thee a crown of life. Thou shalt have tribulation
ten days......only ten days. The light affliction worketh for us
a GREAT and MIGHTY WEIGHT of GLORY! The camels are coming.
Isa. 60. If they are not here, look for them. All of His Word is
yea and amen. It is written.
When "faith" cometh, it never fails, to swallow up MY doubts.
It never fails to overrun my fears. It never fails to meet MY NEEDS. His mercy is like the sun, comes up every morning.
Is sure. Is established in the heaven above the heaven.
Is seen in the Secret place.
Lifts beggars from the dunghill to the throne.............in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye.
Does not have respect of persons.
Rejoices not in evil........but rejoices in "truth."
DWELLS in the Secret PLACE.
Has ascended to NOT descend henceforth!
He dieth NO More!
Is triumphant over death hell and the grave!
And has the keys to such, and gives to PETER the keys to the Kingdom.
Keeps mercy to a thousand generations.
Breaks not a bruised reed.
Quenches not a "smoking' flax.
Delivers with no smell of "smoke" left!
The God I know...........
Walks thru walls..........
Speaks from HEAVEN........
Rides on the Wind....................
Subdues ..........................................
Overcomes..............................................
Teaches by parables..............
Tells Secrets to those witnesses He has chosen............
Keeps His Word..........
Honors His Word above His Name........
Comes in Spirit as He promised.............
And the world knoweth Him not......................
Needeth not that "any man" should testify of HIM............
Spreads a feast in the presence of our enemies..........
Answers PRAYER
LOVES...........
Demonstrated and demonstrates HIS LOVE
Is more than Word, He is Spirit.........
Lays down His LIFE, sends it in the form of ETERNAL Spirit....
Conquers...........our enemies.........
Meets us on Mt. Zion, and puts a "banner" over us........
Does all things "well" .........
Has no "shadow" of turning.........
Causes wildernesses to instantly turn to WATERSPRINGS
Sends WATER from ABOVE that overcomes the lower pool...........
Reveals Himself........as He wills.......
Gives "dreams" in the night.............while "sleep" falls on man........
Withdraws man from "his" purpose by such means.
Replaces our FEARS with FAITH.
Triumphs and gives us the VIctory! "gives" .......
Causes us "ever" to seek........
Digs a big hole in us that nothing but HIM will fill...........
Nothing..............but HIM.
Ceases from speaking in thunder and lightening....
Speaks in a still small voice...........
That will NEVER pass us by...........
Worketh "all" things together for our GOOD!
Gives us "fellowship" in the Father and in the SON!
Is akin to Joshua and Caleb
Saying, "WE are able............"
Calls the NEGATIVE an "evil" report!
Overcomes it by His Word and Spirit!
Looks beyond our "faults" and sees our NEED.
Is acquainted with our downsitting and our UPrising!
Knoweth what we have NEED of before we ask!
Works in us HIS Will both to will and to "do" .....
Never asks our flesh to do the Works of HIS Spirit.........
But does them IN US, For us, for HIS Glory!
Divides the darkness from the Light
Divides the Day from the Night
Continues.........
Searches our the darkness..........
Searches out Perfection, Job 28 says, and
Turns the stones of darkness to saphires
The "dust" to gold........
Gives us the RECORD of His SON
Puts the TESTIMONY of HIS SON in His ARK!
I am on my soapbox this morning
:cloud9: THANK YOU, Lord, I needed that...........Amen and amen. Let all the idols come crashing down, let the fire of Your Spirit consume them, AND the water too. Let us behold Your glory, the glory of the only begotten Son, in our midst. We give You praise this day, for You are worthy to be praised. :HeartThrob:
:girlheart:
Amen and Amen and Amen!
Thank you for something uplifting and faith building. Such words seem hard to find these days.
John
Quote from: Cardinal on March 05, 2008, 03:53:07 PM
:cloud9: I won't share the Word He gave me Trans, but I will tell you I never heard it before, and it was 4 months before I found another part of it was even in the Bible. I had asked at least 5 pastors at this time what one unusual word of this Word meant, and not one of them even told me it was in the Bible, nor did they know what it meant. I stumbled across it myself, in my Strong's concordance 4 months later.
He spoke it to me in the shower, and it was the oddest sensation, as I felt the water of the shower pouring over me AND the water of the Spirit pouring over me at the same time. I came upstairs and asked my mother if she knew if there was anyone in the Bible by this name, and what was it about him? She didn't know, either. Catholics back then at least in her parish, were being told not to read the Bible as only a biblical scholar could understand it :sigh:, a fact her brother confirmed to me also, later. Thus, they never learned it, either.
And while I fully understand your skepticism (remember I was a skeptic too), and I think you're missing a piece to the puzzle. True, all those counterfeits, the spirits behind them are capable of giving out some correct information to the ones that go to them. But for every counterfeit that exists, there is a reality in God's Spirit that has been mimicked but not duplicated, because Satan can only mimic what God has, but never duplicate it. I'm telling you here what the reality is, and it's not a counterfeit. I do appreciate you're being kind about your disagreement with me, however........Blessings to all.....
Now I am puzzled. Why don't you want to say what part of the OT God quoted to you which you had never heard before?
"asked my mother if she knew if there was anyone in the Bible by this name, and what was it about him?" It's a name, is it?
"Catholics back then at least in her parish, were being told not to read the Bible as only a biblical scholar could understand it :sigh:, a fact her brother confirmed to me also, later."
Goodness, where did you live? 16th century Madrid?
"True, all those counterfeits, the spirits behind them are capable of giving out some correct information to the ones that go to them. But for every counterfeit that exists, there is a reality in God's Spirit that has been mimicked but not duplicated, because Satan can only mimic what God has"
You will see, of course, how this looks to an unbeliever; anything that doesn't work is a devil's trick; anything that does, alleluia! This a way of manipulating the odds in favour of the required result.
Quote from: Redlettervoice on March 06, 2008, 05:46:53 PM
The God I know is the ONLY one that hath delivered,
doth deliver, and shall yet deliver.
He is unlike any other VOICE I have ever heard.
He is not a "man" that He should lie.
I hold to His Word for it is my ONLY hope!
If in this life only, we have hope, we are of all men MOST Miserable.
What did Jesus use to overthrow satan? "It is written."
Take up your cross. . and follow me, to the place where
there is NOT one........for the things "written" concerning ME
have an end..........there is no end to the reign........but
there is an end to the suffering. Be thou faithful unto death
and I will give thee a crown of life. Thou shalt have tribulation
ten days......only ten days. The light affliction worketh for us
a GREAT and MIGHTY WEIGHT of GLORY! The camels are coming.
Isa. 60. If they are not here, look for them. All of His Word is
yea and amen. It is written.
When "faith" cometh, it never fails, to swallow up MY doubts.
It never fails to overrun my fears. It never fails to meet MY NEEDS. His mercy is like the sun, comes up every morning.
Is sure. Is established in the heaven above the heaven.
Is seen in the Secret place.
Lifts beggars from the dunghill to the throne.............in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye.
Does not have respect of persons.
Rejoices not in evil........but rejoices in "truth."
DWELLS in the Secret PLACE.
Has ascended to NOT descend henceforth!
He dieth NO More!
Is triumphant over death hell and the grave!
And has the keys to such, and gives to PETER the keys to the Kingdom.
Keeps mercy to a thousand generations.
Breaks not a bruised reed.
Quenches not a "smoking' flax.
Delivers with no smell of "smoke" left!
The God I know...........
Walks thru walls..........
Speaks from HEAVEN........
Rides on the Wind....................
Subdues ..........................................
Overcomes..............................................
Teaches by parables..............
Tells Secrets to those witnesses He has chosen............
Keeps His Word..........
Honors His Word above His Name........
Comes in Spirit as He promised.............
And the world knoweth Him not......................
Needeth not that "any man" should testify of HIM............
Spreads a feast in the presence of our enemies..........
Answers PRAYER
LOVES...........
Demonstrated and demonstrates HIS LOVE
Is more than Word, He is Spirit.........
Lays down His LIFE, sends it in the form of ETERNAL Spirit....
Conquers...........our enemies.........
Meets us on Mt. Zion, and puts a "banner" over us........
Does all things "well" .........
Has no "shadow" of turning.........
Causes wildernesses to instantly turn to WATERSPRINGS
Sends WATER from ABOVE that overcomes the lower pool...........
Reveals Himself........as He wills.......
Gives "dreams" in the night.............while "sleep" falls on man........
Withdraws man from "his" purpose by such means.
Replaces our FEARS with FAITH.
Triumphs and gives us the VIctory! "gives" .......
Causes us "ever" to seek........
Digs a big hole in us that nothing but HIM will fill...........
Nothing..............but HIM.
Ceases from speaking in thunder and lightening....
Speaks in a still small voice...........
That will NEVER pass us by...........
Worketh "all" things together for our GOOD!
Gives us "fellowship" in the Father and in the SON!
Is akin to Joshua and Caleb
Saying, "WE are able............"
Calls the NEGATIVE an "evil" report!
Overcomes it by His Word and Spirit!
Looks beyond our "faults" and sees our NEED.
Is acquainted with our downsitting and our UPrising!
Knoweth what we have NEED of before we ask!
Works in us HIS Will both to will and to "do" .....
Never asks our flesh to do the Works of HIS Spirit.........
But does them IN US, For us, for HIS Glory!
Divides the darkness from the Light
Divides the Day from the Night
Continues.........
Searches our the darkness..........
Searches out Perfection, Job 28 says, and
Turns the stones of darkness to saphires
The "dust" to gold........
Gives us the RECORD of His SON
Puts the TESTIMONY of HIS SON in His ARK!
I am on my soapbox this morning
Sorry. :dontknow: The God you know exists only in the Bible and your head.
Quote from: Cardinal on March 06, 2008, 05:54:24 PM
:cloud9: THANK YOU, Lord, I needed that...........Amen and amen. Let all the idols come crashing down, let the fire of Your Spirit consume them, AND the water too. Let us behold Your glory, the glory of the only begotten Son, in our midst. We give You praise this day, for You are worthy to be praised. :HeartThrob:
Oh dear, oh dear. Doesn't anyone use logic and reason around here rather than froth-at-the-mouth preaching?
And rightly so. I am currently reading Garwood's book on the Flat earthists. It is a revelation as to how evidence is ignored, logic twisted, belief triumphs over reason and science vilified as a conspiracy to lead people from the Bible.
The flat earth has been effectively put to bed, but there are many more gaps for god. Evolution is beng treated in the same way, the origins of the universe are being treated in the same way.
For a group that seem to claim that the Bible is not important for faith and, indeed, they don't read it much (presumably because it might not agree with the theological template in their head) there is an awful lot of proof by Bible-quotes. Clearly, it is not only a circular argument, but a selective circular argument which is not, actually an argument at all. It is nothng; nothing at all, other than faith and a very selective faith, too.
Quote from: Transponder on March 05, 2008, 12:51:56 PM
I always get stumped by those who trot out a supposed miracle which proves the reality of something. It puts me on the back foot immediately as I am disinclined to cast doubt on a personal experience of that kind.
Hey trans,
There's just no way to show you. When it happens, you'll know and then people won't know how you're so sure either. And you won't be able to show them either. :bigGrin:
I will give you another one to ponder though.
http://scaredofhell.com/Testimonies.html
Mine is the third one down called "Byron's Story".
Maybe someone can calculate the odds of someone else who had no clue what was going through my head picking one phrase out of a book that size which would answer the only question on my mind.
I used to think it happened because I was 'special' and 'chosen'. Now I realize that I'm just so dang hard-headed - I needed proof (remind you of anyone?).
Also you'll notice the verse was TOTALLY out of context.
blessings,
- byron
Quote from: firstborn888 on March 07, 2008, 12:36:05 PM
Quote from: Transponder on March 05, 2008, 12:51:56 PM
I always get stumped by those who trot out a supposed miracle which proves the reality of something. It puts me on the back foot immediately as I am disinclined to cast doubt on a personal experience of that kind.
Hey trans,
There's just no way to show you. When it happens, you'll know and then people won't know how you're so sure either. And you won't be able to show them either. :bigGrin:
I will give you another one to ponder though.
http://scaredofhell.com/Testimonies.html
Mine is the third one down called "Byron's Story".
Maybe someone can calculate the odds of someone else who had no clue what was going through my head picking one phrase out of a book that size which would answer the only question on my mind.
I used to think it happened because I was 'special' and 'chosen'. Now I realize that I'm just so dang hard-headed - I needed proof (remind you of anyone?).
Also you'll notice the verse was TOTALLY out of context.
blessings,
- byron
Interesting...someone "in search of something, but didn't know what..."(1). Sorry You want me read it for what..to persuade me? ould you in turn read a few deconversion stories?
http://www.positiveatheism.org/mail/eml8453.htm
(1) The reason why people converted to moonieism
Quote from: Transponder on March 07, 2008, 01:21:41 PM
Quote from: firstborn888 on March 07, 2008, 12:36:05 PM
Quote from: Transponder on March 05, 2008, 12:51:56 PM
I always get stumped by those who trot out a supposed miracle which proves the reality of something. It puts me on the back foot immediately as I am disinclined to cast doubt on a personal experience of that kind.
Hey trans,
There's just no way to show you. When it happens, you'll know and then people won't know how you're so sure either. And you won't be able to show them either. :bigGrin:
I will give you another one to ponder though.
http://scaredofhell.com/Testimonies.html
Mine is the third one down called "Byron's Story".
Maybe someone can calculate the odds of someone else who had no clue what was going through my head picking one phrase out of a book that size which would answer the only question on my mind.
I used to think it happened because I was 'special' and 'chosen'. Now I realize that I'm just so dang hard-headed - I needed proof (remind you of anyone?).
Also you'll notice the verse was TOTALLY out of context.
blessings,
- byron
Interesting...someone "in search of something, but didn't know what..."(1). Sorry You want me read it for what..to persuade me? ould you in turn read a few deconversion stories?
http://www.positiveatheism.org/mail/eml8453.htm
(1) The reason why people converted to moonieism
Sounds like you read the wrong one? I didn't ever say the word 'search' in mine.
Persuade you? I thought you may be interested in unexplained phenomena, but I clearly stated "There's just no way to show you. When it happens, you'll know and then people won't know how you're so sure either. And you won't be able to show them either".
Are you just skimming these posts or what?
Sure, I'll read a de-conversion story, no problem.
blessings,
_ Byron
Okay, I read about 15 of the original de-conversion stories and saw nothing I could relate to personally since about 90% or so began "I was raised 'such and such'" which means they had religion, not reality. If you have a specific one that you feel is 'telling' in some way, let me know and I'll read that too. All these first 15 were just typical stuff....
blessings,
- Byron
:cloud9: I know how it looks to an unbeliever Trans.......remember, I was one. I told you what happened to me that changed my status forever. And the reason I won't share it is because it was something personal and precious for me, that will have no real bearing on the topic. Thank you, however, for discussing it with me civilly; I do appreciate that. Blessings to you.......
Quote from: Transponder on March 07, 2008, 11:56:46 AM
Quote from: Cardinal on March 06, 2008, 05:54:24 PM
:cloud9: THANK YOU, Lord, I needed that...........Amen and amen. Let all the idols come crashing down, let the fire of Your Spirit consume them, AND the water too. Let us behold Your glory, the glory of the only begotten Son, in our midst. We give You praise this day, for You are worthy to be praised. :HeartThrob:
Oh dear, oh dear. Doesn't anyone use logic and reason around here rather than froth-at-the-mouth preaching?
Ok, I was being patient, but now I am really starting to get P.O.'d here. No one is preaching here, they are praising God. Why do you have such a big problem with that? And telling someone that the God they know is only in their head and the bible? What exactly is your reason for being here? Is it only to make fun of those who believe? :thewife: :spank:
Quote from: firstborn888 on March 07, 2008, 01:43:25 PM
Quote from: Transponder on March 07, 2008, 01:21:41 PM
Quote from: firstborn888 on March 07, 2008, 12:36:05 PM
Quote from: Transponder on March 05, 2008, 12:51:56 PM
I always get stumped by those who trot out a supposed miracle which proves the reality of something. It puts me on the back foot immediately as I am disinclined to cast doubt on a personal experience of that kind.
Hey trans,
There's just no way to show you. When it happens, you'll know and then people won't know how you're so sure either. And you won't be able to show them either. :bigGrin:
I will give you another one to ponder though.
http://scaredofhell.com/Testimonies.html
Mine is the third one down called "Byron's Story".
Maybe someone can calculate the odds of someone else who had no clue what was going through my head picking one phrase out of a book that size which would answer the only question on my mind.
I used to think it happened because I was 'special' and 'chosen'. Now I realize that I'm just so dang hard-headed - I needed proof (remind you of anyone?).
Also you'll notice the verse was TOTALLY out of context.
blessings,
- byron
Interesting...someone "in search of something, but didn't know what..."(1). Sorry You want me read it for what..to persuade me? ould you in turn read a few deconversion stories?
http://www.positiveatheism.org/mail/eml8453.htm
(1) The reason why people converted to moonieism
Sounds like you read the wrong one? I didn't ever say the word 'search' in mine.
Persuade you? I thought you may be interested in unexplained phenomena, but I clearly stated "There's just no way to show you. When it happens, you'll know and then people won't know how you're so sure either. And you won't be able to show them either".
Are you just skimming these posts or what?
Sure, I'll read a de-conversion story, no problem.
blessings,
_ Byron
Ok I may have gone off at a tangent. If it not too long could you copy/paste here - or the relevant part so I can see what you mean?
Sometimes I do skim the posts, admitted. I am quite interested in unexplained phenomena. I am also interested in the various explanations for unexplained phenomena. I just don't see any reason to buy into any one explanation rather than the others. I expect you did because it was the cultural context you had. If you lived in India you'd have probably grown your hair and worn cow dung and be telling western visitors that 'When it happens to you, you'll know'.
(later) ok, I read Byron's story. I don't want to scrabble through your scrapbook publicly but it's really the old story. Person in need gets a mental message about their present condition. Practised apologist finds something appropriate in the Bible. Job done. Note that you went to the guy already half convinced that it was God, not your own problems.
It's fine that you found what you needed. It is fine for you. However, if you think about the matter you must see that the message had to come from within, not from without.
Quote from: jenna on March 07, 2008, 05:11:08 PM
Quote from: Transponder on March 07, 2008, 11:56:46 AM
Quote from: Cardinal on March 06, 2008, 05:54:24 PM
:cloud9: THANK YOU, Lord, I needed that...........Amen and amen. Let all the idols come crashing down, let the fire of Your Spirit consume them, AND the water too. Let us behold Your glory, the glory of the only begotten Son, in our midst. We give You praise this day, for You are worthy to be praised. :HeartThrob:
Oh dear, oh dear. Doesn't anyone use logic and reason around here rather than froth-at-the-mouth preaching?
Ok, I was being patient, but now I am really starting to get P.O.'d here. No one is preaching here, they are praising God. Why do you have such a big problem with that? And telling someone that the God they know is only in their head and the bible? What exactly is your reason for being here? Is it only to make fun of those who believe? :thewife: :spank:
Oh, I am so sorry I am peeing you off, please don't go and beat up on your husband. :laughing7:
Preaching or praising God? It's hard to tell the difference. Take your point though. I should just bleep over that where not addressed to me. just pees me off a bit too when I write a reasoned post, gets a response that is airy fairy flannel and everyone says what an inspiring post. It really shows Jesus is real and God is love! Praise him and so on.. :sigh:
:cloud9: You haven't done your homework on this one, Trans :winkgrin:......God sent the praisers out first in battles sometimes and then the battle was over before it even started. Thus the scripture, God inhabits the praises of His people. That "airy fairy flannel" sometimes can pack quite a "punch" :mshock: Blessings to you buddy....... :thumbsup:
Quote from: Cardinal on March 07, 2008, 09:35:48 PM
:cloud9: You haven't done your homework on this one, Trans :winkgrin:......God sent the praisers out first in battles sometimes and then the battle was over before it even started. Thus the scripture, God inhabits the praises of His people. That "airy fairy flannel" sometimes can pack quite a "punch" :mshock: Blessings to you buddy....... :thumbsup:
Yes, indeed it can...for those that don't know how to block and hit back. For some reason there are no college courses or night schools on it. Maybe I should start one. For I did my homework, oh yes. Trust me, I did my homework. You telling me you can't see that?
:cloud9: No, I'm giving you a gentle "ribbing".......you telling me you can't see that? :winkgrin:
Quote from: Transponder on March 07, 2008, 09:06:04 PM
(later) ok, I read Byron's story. I don't want to scrabble through your scrapbook publicly but it's really the old story. Person in need gets a mental message about their present condition. Practised apologist finds something appropriate in the Bible. Job done. Note that you went to the guy already half convinced that it was God, not your own problems.
Yes, since I never heard a voice like that, I was really freaked out that it might be a powerful alien or God.
Still there were crazy odds against this. The one practised apologist (20 year old hippie Jesus freak) I went to reads my mind and pulls out an out of context verse (Jesus was speaking about Himself) which is an exact match (starving- I have food).
The odds are staggering that it would happen by accident. What happened inside is the work of God which I can't show you proof of. No one that knew me well had many doubts though (transformed).
Okay, so we were mutually unimpressed by each others conversion and deconversion stories. :laughing7:
People who just have a head knowledge of God lose faith all the time. Same 'ol same 'ol "I used to think this and now I think this blah blah blah"
blessings,
- byron
Quote from: Cardinal on March 07, 2008, 09:46:52 PM
:cloud9: No, I'm giving you a gentle "ribbing".......you telling me you can't see that? :winkgrin:
Gentle ribbing or not, you made a statement that I have researched poorly. Presumably because I did not mention the contested theory that the armies of the Israelites sent Hoshana-shouters on ahead to ensure they won (which they didn't - always).
However, it gave me the opportunity to point out that lack of training on how to counter hard-sell of any kind, including the cultist and evangelical, is leaving most of the unprepared populace at risk from the cultist, con-man and love-bomber.
Quote from: firstborn888 on March 08, 2008, 04:23:38 AM
Quote from: Transponder on March 07, 2008, 09:06:04 PM
(later) ok, I read Byron's story. I don't want to scrabble through your scrapbook publicly but it's really the old story. Person in need gets a mental message about their present condition. Practised apologist finds something appropriate in the Bible. Job done. Note that you went to the guy already half convinced that it was God, not your own problems.
Yes, since I never heard a voice like that, I was really freaked out that it might be a powerful alien or God.
Still there were crazy odds against this. The one practised apologist (20 year old hippie Jesus freak) I went to reads my mind and pulls out an out of context verse (Jesus was speaking about Himself) which is an exact match (starving- I have food).
The odds are staggering that it would happen by accident. What happened inside is the work of God which I can't show you proof of. No one that knew me well had many doubts though (transformed).
Okay, so we were mutually unimpressed by each others conversion and deconversion stories. :laughing7:
People who just have a head knowledge of God lose faith all the time. Same 'ol same 'ol "I used to think this and now I think this blah blah blah"
blessings,
- byron
Well, yes. I think we shall have to respect each others' views on this as I am diffident about wiggling the nails (1) out of this edifice which propped your life up at a difficult time. I'd just say that I recieved one of those pesky e-messages with 'funny picture' or 'someone's look at life' with the remarkable links between the Lincoln and Kennedy assassinations. Words like 'Ford' and 'Lincoln', Monroe, Maryland and Marylyn Monroe. Can't just be chance, can it?
(1) such as the exact match of starving = food...not really much need to fish about for a practiced evangelist. I could have taken my comment about skimming the surface and found a parallel about searching deeper for truth, for all that I'd probably need to google for it, not being a practiced evangelical.
Quote from: Transponder on March 08, 2008, 10:40:54 AM
(1) such as the exact match of starving = food...not really much need to fish about for a practiced evangelist. I could have taken my comment about skimming the surface and found a parallel about searching deeper for truth, for all that I'd probably need to google for it, not being a practiced evangelical.
Well, okay. I still think you may have missed the point that this was not a preacher and that I told him
nothing of the 'starving to death' but, if you think it's coincidence - fine.
Just as you are a bit blunt about what you perceive about people's "God in their heads", let me be a bit blunt as well, if I may.
There's folks like you, who have no sense of the supernatural, folks that have 'religious faith' and hyper imaginations (the type that de-convert a lot), folks with spiritual experiences which come from being in contact with the unseen world and then those who are in contact with the unseen world and in contact (relationship) with the creator of the seen and the unseen world.
So you, being in the first category, don't see that you're missing anything and see all others to be in the second category? That's what it looks like from here, like you have physical senses but not spiritual senses, and those who do, you assume to be illogical and possessors of a vivid imagination.
That doesn't make you any 'less' than anyone else (to me), but it would make you less gifted than some in that particular area, just as I am probably less gifted than you intellectually. So that's pretty much where it will stay until the "God I know" does something different with ya'.
Since the unseen world sustains and created the seen world, you must eventually know this, perhaps upon death - hopefully (from my perspective) sooner, since your breathe came from God just like mine. But, since you don't see it I can assume everything I'm saying right now sounds like blah blah blah blah to you, so, I guess I'll rest my fingers now.
blessings,
- Byron
I loved your story, Byron.
Was it the most beautiful male voice you've ever heard?
Mine was. :Sparkletooth:
The world shall soon dissolve like snow,
The sun refuse to shine;
But, God who called me here below
Will be forever mine
Hi Trans, :hihat:
I must be different here as I do not hear voices in my head, no not even my own. I only have thoughts, no voices. I appeared to be wired more logical. Emotions don't work for me, and never have. I'm not saying one way is better than another, just I don't process things emotionally.
Like being filled with the Spirit for example. For me to be filled with the spirit is precisely the same thing as letting the word (teaching, message) of Christ direct my life. To have "Jesus in my heart" is when I have his words informing and empowering my life. If his Gospel-word is the motivating principle in my life, then I have the Spirit of God dwelling in me. This is why it's important to read scripture, so that one can have God's words! I never really get to feel anything, but I have faith in God's love.
Ecc 1:9 That which has been is that which will be, And that which has been done is that which will be done. So there is nothing new under the sun. 10 Is there anything of which one might say, "See this, it is new"? Already it has existed for ages Which were before us.
Yes, Transponder men have been wrestling with this topic for thousands of years lets take a look back into the past.
Lactantius: The Divine Institutes. Book VI. Chap. X. - Of Religion Towards God, and Mercy Towards Men; And of the Beginning of the World. (Around 303 A.D.)
For God, who has not given wisdom to the other animals, has made them more safe from attack in danger by natural defenses. But because He made him naked and defenseless,65 that He might rather furnish him with wisdom, He gave him, besides other things, this feeling of kindness;66 so that man should protect, love, and cherish man, and both receive and afford assistance against all dangers. Therefore kindness is the greatest bond of human society... "In short, we are all sprung from a heavenly seed; all have that same father." Therefore they are to be accounted as savage beasts who injure man; who, in opposition to every law and right of human nature, plunder, torture, slay, and banish...
There are no precepts of philosophers to this purport, inasmuch as they, being captivated by the appearance of false virtue, have taken away mercy from man, and while they wish to heal, have corrupted... This error, therefore, is also to be refuted, of those who think that nothing is to be bestowed on any one. They have introduced not one origin only, and cause of building a city; but some relate that those men who were first born from the earth, (CaveMen) when they passed a wandering life among the woods and plains, and were not united by any mutual bond of speech or justice, but had leaves and grass for their beds, and caves and grottos for their dwellings, were a prey to the beasts and stronger animals. Then, that those who had either escaped, having been torn, or had seen their neighbours torn, being admonished of their own danger, had recourse to other men, implored protection, and at first made their wishes known by nods; then that they tried the beginnings of conversation, and by attaching names to each object, by degrees completed the system of speech. But when they saw that numbers themselves were not safe against the beasts, they began also to build towns, either that they might make their nightly repose safe, or that they might ward off the incursions and attacks of beasts, not by fighting, but by interposing barriers.71
ARNOBIUS The Seven Books of Arnobius Against the Heathen. BOOK VI. CHAPTER XX . (around 284-330A.D.)
31. "O greatest, O Supreme Creator of things invisible! O Thou who art Thyself unseen, and who art incomprehensible! Thou art worthy, Thou art verily worthy - if only mortal tongue may speak of Thee - that all breathing and intelligent nature should never cease to feel and to return thanks; that it should throughout the whole of life fall on bended knee, and offer supplication with never-ceasing prayers. For Thou art the first cause; in Thee created things exist, and Thou art the space in which rest the foundations of all things, whatever they be. Thou art illimitable, unbegotten, immortal, enduring for aye, God Thyself alone, whom no bodily shape may represent, no outline delineate; of virtues inexpressible, of greatness indefinable; unrestricted as to locality, movement, and condition, concerning whom nothing can be clearly expressed by the significance of man's words. That Thou mayest he understood, we must be silent; and that erring conjecture may track Thee through the shady cloud, no word must be uttered. Grant pardon, O King Supreme, to those who persecute Thy servants; and in virtue of Thy benign nature, forgive those who fly from the worship of Thy name and the observance of Thy religion. It is not to be wondered at if Thou art unknown; it is a cause of greater astonishment if Thou art clearly comprehended.54 But perchance some one dares - for this remains for frantic madness to do - to be uncertain, and to express doubt whether that God exists or not; whether He is believed in on the proved truth of reliable evidence, or on the imaginings of empty rumour. For of those who have given themselves to philosophizing, we have heard that some 55 deny the existence of any divine power, that others56 inquire daily whether there be or not; that others57 construct the whole fabric of the universe by chance accidents and by random collision, and fashion it by the concourse of atoms of different shapes; with whom we by no means intend to enter at this time on a discussion of such perverse convictions.58 For those who think wisely say, that to argue against things palpably foolish, is a mark of greater folly."
Yes, close to one thousand eight hundred years ago they talked about atoms, and cave men! So I guess there really is "nothing new under the sun"!
One would have thought a better theory would have developed over the past 1800 years :dontknow:
Peace bro
Paul
Quote from: firstborn888 on March 09, 2008, 05:32:57 AM
Quote from: Transponder on March 08, 2008, 10:40:54 AM
(1) such as the exact match of starving = food...not really much need to fish about for a practiced evangelist. I could have taken my comment about skimming the surface and found a parallel about searching deeper for truth, for all that I'd probably need to google for it, not being a practiced evangelical.
Well, okay. I still think you may have missed the point that this was not a preacher and that I told him nothing of the 'starving to death' but, if you think it's coincidence - fine.
Just as you are a bit blunt about what you perceive about people's "God in their heads", let me be a bit blunt as well, if I may.
There's folks like you, who have no sense of the supernatural, folks that have 'religious faith' and hyper imaginations (the type that de-convert a lot), folks with spiritual experiences which come from being in contact with the unseen world and then those who are in contact with the unseen world and in contact (relationship) with the creator of the seen and the unseen world.
So you, being in the first category, don't see that you're missing anything and see all others to be in the second category? That's what it looks like from here, like you have physical senses but not spiritual senses, and those who do, you assume to be illogical and possessors of a vivid imagination.
That doesn't make you any 'less' than anyone else (to me), but it would make you less gifted than some in that particular area, just as I am probably less gifted than you intellectually. So that's pretty much where it will stay until the "God I know" does something different with ya'.
Since the unseen world sustains and created the seen world, you must eventually know this, perhaps upon death - hopefully (from my perspective) sooner, since your breathe came from God just like mine. But, since you don't see it I can assume everything I'm saying right now sounds like blah blah blah blah to you, so, I guess I'll rest my fingers now.
blessings,
- Byron
Well, yes, I did. I assumed that you said to this evangelical guy (I did not say preacher - not in the sense of professional) what your voice said to you. In fact, I'd find it surprising that you did not. I admit that the coincidence gets a bit more stretched if the first page you looked at had the 'food' reference. Sure it was the first page? Sure you didn't do more than just have that page put in front of you? Think back. It just doesn't...work as a normal sequence of events.
I have to say that I do find proof from personal miracles hard to handle. I am faced with a choce; I either accept what I am told on trust - whether by those that swear that they grew a new head after it had been crushed by a truck or by those that say they were abducted by small grey men - or I have to reserve my judgement until something a bit more reliable comes up. As I say, I have had a number of remarkable coincidences in my life. Some beneficial, some detrimental, some just remarkable. It just so happenned that none occured in a situation that allowed an evangelical of one kind or another to suck me in.
Like I say, if it's good for you, fine. It ain't for me. I couldn't deal with the side effects. Faith can seriously damage your reason.
:cloud9: Trans, I LOVED this last statement of yours, "Faith can seriously damage your reason." :thumbsup:
Little green men, huh? I just have to wonder, if a space ship were to land at the UN, with a tablet of some unknown metal, inscribed in multiple languages, saying that it came from a planet far away (with coordinates identifying it), and claiming Jesus put them there to send His message to humanity to love and serve the Lord, would science be searching for who perpetrated this hoax, or would they conclude that even aliens suffer from the same neuroses as humanity?
:cloud9: Neither. :laughing7: They'd try to worship it/them, for their "higher" knowledge. Just my :2c: :winkgrin:
Quote from: Transponder on March 09, 2008, 10:45:00 AM
Like I say, if it's good for you, fine. It ain't for me. I couldn't deal with the side effects. Faith can seriously damage your reason.
Yeah, just like it damaged the reason of one of the world's greatest scientists, Sir Isaac Newton. :happy3:
"At the end of the seventeenth century, Isaac Newton (1642-1727) initiated a revolution in science. At the end of the twentieth century, scholars began a revolution in the understanding of Newton. As Newton's long-concealed private papers on theology become increasingly accessible, students of Newton's thought are coming to see Newton as more than a scientist.
The author of the Principia mathematica was a true Renaissance man who spent decades delving in the secrets of alchemy and even longer studying the Bible, theology and church history. Leaving behind four million words on theology, Newton was one of the greatest lay theologians of his age. A study of Newton's theology and prophetic views illuminates the life of this great thinker and helps us understand his science.
This website provides downloadable academic papers (both published and forthcoming) that explore Newton's theology, prophetic views and the interaction between his science and his religion. These resources include substantial quotations from Newton's unpublished theological manuscripts."
Actually, most of the great scientists, even Einstein, who though not religious, believed in a Creator.
Quote from: Reverend G on March 09, 2008, 04:52:18 PM
Actually, most of the great scientists, even Einstein, who though not religious, believed in a Creator.
Yes, somebody should write a book compiling the religious statements of the great modern scientists, lest misled minds jump to the conclusion that science and belief in God are somehow incompatible.
In fact, it's just the opposite.
Quote from: Molly on March 09, 2008, 04:58:34 PM
Yes, somebody should write a book compiling the religious statements of the great modern scientists, lest misled minds jump to the conclusion that science and belief in God are somehow incompatible.
In fact, it's just the opposite.
We own a book in our homeschool library titled
Men Of science Men Of God, that I think does just that. Haven't read it yet though. :HeartThrob:
Some of them write books, too. One example is Francis S. Collins, who was atheistic in his youth. He did write a book, "The Language of God: A Scientist Presents Evidence For Belief". Never heard of him? He headed the Human Genome Project...it mapped the Human DNA.
Quote from: Reverend G on March 09, 2008, 05:16:49 PM
Some of them write books, too. One example is Francis S. Collins, who was atheistic in his youth. He did write a book, "The Language of God: A Scientist Presents Evidence For Belief". Never heard of him? He headed the Human Genome Project...it mapped the Human DNA.
I coined that phrase myself, 'the language of God,' before he published that book, because that is so clearly what DNA is--the language of God. There is no doubt in my mind that God fiddles with our DNA (especially those parts of it that the scientists call 'junk' because they don't know what it does) when he makes us a 'new man.'
By the way, it looks like Newton did not believe in an eternal Hell, which, among other things, made him a heretic in his day, thus he had to keep his theological writings secret.
Quote from: hopeful on March 09, 2008, 05:15:33 PM
Quote from: Molly on March 09, 2008, 04:58:34 PM
Yes, somebody should write a book compiling the religious statements of the great modern scientists, lest misled minds jump to the conclusion that science and belief in God are somehow incompatible.
In fact, it's just the opposite.
We own a book in our homeschool library titled Men Of science Men Of God, that I think does just that. Haven't read it yet though. :HeartThrob:
Thank God you are homeschooling because you would never see such a book in public school.
Quote from: Transponder on March 09, 2008, 10:45:00 AM
Quote from: firstborn888 on March 09, 2008, 05:32:57 AM
Quote from: Transponder on March 08, 2008, 10:40:54 AM
(1) such as the exact match of starving = food...not really much need to fish about for a practiced evangelist. I could have taken my comment about skimming the surface and found a parallel about searching deeper for truth, for all that I'd probably need to google for it, not being a practiced evangelical.
Well, okay. I still think you may have missed the point that this was not a preacher and that I told him nothing of the 'starving to death' but, if you think it's coincidence - fine.
Just as you are a bit blunt about what you perceive about people's "God in their heads", let me be a bit blunt as well, if I may.
There's folks like you, who have no sense of the supernatural, folks that have 'religious faith' and hyper imaginations (the type that de-convert a lot), folks with spiritual experiences which come from being in contact with the unseen world and then those who are in contact with the unseen world and in contact (relationship) with the creator of the seen and the unseen world.
So you, being in the first category, don't see that you're missing anything and see all others to be in the second category? That's what it looks like from here, like you have physical senses but not spiritual senses, and those who do, you assume to be illogical and possessors of a vivid imagination.
That doesn't make you any 'less' than anyone else (to me), but it would make you less gifted than some in that particular area, just as I am probably less gifted than you intellectually. So that's pretty much where it will stay until the "God I know" does something different with ya'.
Since the unseen world sustains and created the seen world, you must eventually know this, perhaps upon death - hopefully (from my perspective) sooner, since your breathe came from God just like mine. But, since you don't see it I can assume everything I'm saying right now sounds like blah blah blah blah to you, so, I guess I'll rest my fingers now.
blessings,
- Byron
Well, yes, I did. I assumed that you said to this evangelical guy (I did not say preacher - not in the sense of professional) what your voice said to you. In fact, I'd find it surprising that you did not. I admit that the coincidence gets a bit more stretched if the first page you looked at had the 'food' reference. Sure it was the first page? Sure you didn't do more than just have that page put in front of you? Think back. It just doesn't...work as a normal sequence of events.
Yes, the plan was to tell him and get his input but I told him NOTHING except "I think God may have spoken to me last night", then he cut me off and left the room and came back and pointed directly to John 4:32 - first thing. It was IMPOSSIBLE, and of course, it freaked me out as it would you or anyone else it happened to.
I was as stubborn and 'unbelieving' as they come. But as you stated - that was just an outward event to break the ice. Then things began to transpire on the inside.
Quote from: Transponder on March 09, 2008, 10:45:00 AM
I have to say that I do find proof from personal miracles hard to handle. I am faced with a choce; I either accept what I am told on trust - whether by those that swear that they grew a new head after it had been crushed by a truck or by those that say they were abducted by small grey men - or I have to reserve my judgement until something a bit more reliable comes up. As I say, I have had a number of remarkable coincidences in my life. Some beneficial, some detrimental, some just remarkable. It just so happenned that none occured in a situation that allowed an evangelical of one kind or another to suck me in.
You have great logical points, and the many 'pretenders' or self deceived certainly don't make it any easier.
Quote from: Transponder on March 09, 2008, 10:45:00 AM
Like I say, if it's good for you, fine. It ain't for me. I couldn't deal with the side effects. Faith can seriously damage your reason.
I think I explained reason vs. faith vs. real. I don't blame you for doubting and no one can show you unless God gives them the ability to cure spiritual blindness. Religion means nothing to me - I only accept reality.
blessings,
- Byron
Quote from: Molly on March 09, 2008, 04:48:21 PM
Quote from: Transponder on March 09, 2008, 10:45:00 AM
Like I say, if it's good for you, fine. It ain't for me. I couldn't deal with the side effects. Faith can seriously damage your reason.
Yeah, just like it damaged the reason of one of the world's greatest scientists, Sir Isaac Newton. :happy3:
"At the end of the seventeenth century, Isaac Newton (1642-1727) initiated a revolution in science. At the end of the twentieth century, scholars began a revolution in the understanding of Newton. As Newton's long-concealed private papers on theology become increasingly accessible, students of Newton's thought are coming to see Newton as more than a scientist.
The author of the Principia mathematica was a true Renaissance man who spent decades delving in the secrets of alchemy and even longer studying the Bible, theology and church history. Leaving behind four million words on theology, Newton was one of the greatest lay theologians of his age. A study of Newton's theology and prophetic views illuminates the life of this great thinker and helps us understand his science.
This website provides downloadable academic papers (both published and forthcoming) that explore Newton's theology, prophetic views and the interaction between his science and his religion. These resources include substantial quotations from Newton's unpublished theological manuscripts."
It did indeed. Of couse Newton believed in God and saw the universe as his handiwork. And you are right that Einstein believed in a creator, though (as he said) not a personal god. If anything those concepts got in the way of certain lines of their work or distracted them It does not mean that their work is to be decried.
What is to be decried are attempts to discredit science research because it appears to raise questions about religious belief, using the personal religious views of former scientists as icons.
Quote from: firstborn888 on March 10, 2008, 11:25:04 AM
Quote from: Transponder on March 09, 2008, 10:45:00 AM
Quote from: firstborn888 on March 09, 2008, 05:32:57 AM
Quote from: Transponder on March 08, 2008, 10:40:54 AM
(1) such as the exact match of starving = food...not really much need to fish about for a practiced evangelist. I could have taken my comment about skimming the surface and found a parallel about searching deeper for truth, for all that I'd probably need to google for it, not being a practiced evangelical.
Well, okay. I still think you may have missed the point that this was not a preacher and that I told him nothing of the 'starving to death' but, if you think it's coincidence - fine.
Just as you are a bit blunt about what you perceive about people's "God in their heads", let me be a bit blunt as well, if I may.
There's folks like you, who have no sense of the supernatural, folks that have 'religious faith' and hyper imaginations (the type that de-convert a lot), folks with spiritual experiences which come from being in contact with the unseen world and then those who are in contact with the unseen world and in contact (relationship) with the creator of the seen and the unseen world.
So you, being in the first category, don't see that you're missing anything and see all others to be in the second category? That's what it looks like from here, like you have physical senses but not spiritual senses, and those who do, you assume to be illogical and possessors of a vivid imagination.
That doesn't make you any 'less' than anyone else (to me), but it would make you less gifted than some in that particular area, just as I am probably less gifted than you intellectually. So that's pretty much where it will stay until the "God I know" does something different with ya'.
Since the unseen world sustains and created the seen world, you must eventually know this, perhaps upon death - hopefully (from my perspective) sooner, since your breathe came from God just like mine. But, since you don't see it I can assume everything I'm saying right now sounds like blah blah blah blah to you, so, I guess I'll rest my fingers now.
blessings,
- Byron
Well, yes, I did. I assumed that you said to this evangelical guy (I did not say preacher - not in the sense of professional) what your voice said to you. In fact, I'd find it surprising that you did not. I admit that the coincidence gets a bit more stretched if the first page you looked at had the 'food' reference. Sure it was the first page? Sure you didn't do more than just have that page put in front of you? Think back. It just doesn't...work as a normal sequence of events.
Yes, the plan was to tell him and get his input but I told him NOTHING except "I think God may have spoken to me last night", then he cut me off and left the room and came back and pointed directly to John 4:32 - first thing. It was IMPOSSIBLE, and of course, it freaked me out as it would you or anyone else it happened to.
I was as stubborn and 'unbelieving' as they come. But as you stated - that was just an outward event to break the ice. Then things began to transpire on the inside.
Quote from: Transponder on March 09, 2008, 10:45:00 AM
I have to say that I do find proof from personal miracles hard to handle. I am faced with a choce; I either accept what I am told on trust - whether by those that swear that they grew a new head after it had been crushed by a truck or by those that say they were abducted by small grey men - or I have to reserve my judgement until something a bit more reliable comes up. As I say, I have had a number of remarkable coincidences in my life. Some beneficial, some detrimental, some just remarkable. It just so happenned that none occured in a situation that allowed an evangelical of one kind or another to suck me in.
You have great logical points, and the many 'pretenders' or self deceived certainly don't make it any easier.
Quote from: Transponder on March 09, 2008, 10:45:00 AM
Like I say, if it's good for you, fine. It ain't for me. I couldn't deal with the side effects. Faith can seriously damage your reason.
I think I explained reason vs. faith vs. real. I don't blame you for doubting and no one can show you unless God gives them the ability to cure spiritual blindness. Religion means nothing to me - I only accept reality.
blessings,
- Byron
Ok. I accept you account. I have said that I find personal miracles and the like hard to account for and I want to avoid falling into the trap of explaining away difficult facts.
I was talking to a buddhist friend recently and he said pretty much the same thing; that he never believed and then had a sort of personal revelation and found faith (in Buddhism - since that was his cultural background) and he said I would understand if the same thing happened to me. It leaves me unable to honestly deny that such things happen and maybe miracles (in the sense of things that science has no explanation for) happen too. It seems to happen in all sorts of faiths and even nonfaith conexts. I certainly can't take it as proving any particular religion.
And I am not sure that you would present it as such. We may be back to the a 'god' of all religions, or none. Perhaps as one poster said, that makes me a deist. I have also said that a deist is someone I could live with.
QuoteOk. I accept you account. I have said that I find personal miracles and the like hard to account for and I want to avoid falling into the trap of explaining away difficult facts.
I was talking to a buddhist friend recently and he said pretty much the same thing; that he never believed and then had a sort of personal revelation and found faith (in Buddhism - since that was his cultural background) and he said I would understand if the same thing happened to me. It leaves me unable to honestly deny that such thing happen and maybe miracles (in the sense of things that science has no explanation for) happen too.It seems to happen in all sorts of faiths and even nonfaith conexts. I certainly can't take it as proving any particular religion.
Maybe its as simple as inviting it :dontknow: :HeartThrob:
Quote from: Molly on March 09, 2008, 06:28:30 AM
I loved your story, Byron.
Was it the most beautiful male voice you've ever heard?
Mine was. :Sparkletooth:
The world shall soon dissolve like snow,
The sun refuse to shine;
But, God who called me here below
Will be forever mine
Yes, well put - the most beautiful 'male' voice. Like John (kratos john) pointed out too - it actually resonates in the spirit - not in the head.
blessings,
- byron
Quote from: Cardinal on March 09, 2008, 03:35:45 PM
:cloud9: Trans, I LOVED this last statement of yours, "Faith can seriously damage your reason." :thumbsup:
:grin: You did? Perhaps you see that a positive! It makes it easier to acquire faith :thumbsup:
Quote from: Reverend G on March 09, 2008, 04:24:36 PM
Little green men, huh? I just have to wonder, if a space ship were to land at the UN, with a tablet of some unknown metal, inscribed in multiple languages, saying that it came from a planet far away (with coordinates identifying it), and claiming Jesus put them there to send His message to humanity to love and serve the Lord, would science be searching for who perpetrated this hoax, or would they conclude that even aliens suffer from the same neuroses as humanity?
This is to me? I don't recall mentioning little green men (actually this decade's color is Grey) however your fantasy of Aliens coming to announce Jesus is at best a good laugh.
In fact, in contactee accounts (for what they are worth) Aliens have generally been reluctant to talk about religion.
Quote from: Loveroftruth on March 10, 2008, 01:39:26 PM
QuoteOk. I accept you account. I have said that I find personal miracles and the like hard to account for and I want to avoid falling into the trap of explaining away difficult facts.
I was talking to a buddhist friend recently and he said pretty much the same thing; that he never believed and then had a sort of personal revelation and found faith (in Buddhism - since that was his cultural background) and he said I would understand if the same thing happened to me. It leaves me unable to honestly deny that such thing happen and maybe miracles (in the sense of things that science has no explanation for) happen too.It seems to happen in all sorts of faiths and even nonfaith conexts. I certainly can't take it as proving any particular religion.
Maybe its as simple as inviting it :dontknow: :HeartThrob:
I am sure that it is. However - I am sure this will confirm any view that I really believe deep down but am afraid to admit it - I do not trust faith. My remark that Faith can damage your reason is not just a sideswipe. I know very well that getting people into a faith-posture, can produce that 'conversion click - over' and that is why the switch is looked for, whether through meditation, mendbending or group chanting.
I then talk to people have have acquired 'Faith' whether in a religion, a cult, fringe - science or even social matters. And what I see is a misuse of the tools of logic, a reversal of reason and twisting, misuse and even invention of evidence in order to maintain that belief - whether in Jesus, Shiva, UFO's, the Loch ness monster or white supremacy.
I am afraid to 'invite' Faith. It damages the capacity for reason.
Actually, IMO, unbelief is what damages the capacity for reason. Many skeptics and atheists are so set in their ways, they are incapable of reasoning that there might actually be a creator God. They absolutely refuse to listen to others POV. :2c:
Quote from: Transponder
I am afraid to 'invite' Faith. It damages the capacity for reason.
Trans,
You have faith that you don't even recognize. :bigGrin: When you get in your car, do you worry about getting where you are going safely? If not, then you have faith. When you go to bed are you scared to death that you won't wake up the next morning? If not, you have faith. Do you worry about your family any? If not, you have faith. Are you afraid to die? If not you have faith.
You see, there are positives and negatives. Positive thinking is an act of faith, negative thinking is a lack of faith. Do you think negative all the time?
CHB
Quote from: jenna on March 11, 2008, 04:12:32 PM
Actually, IMO, unbelief is what damages the capacity for reason. Many skeptics and atheists are so set in their ways, they are incapable of reasoning that there might actually be a creator God. They absolutely refuse to listen to others POV. :2c:
Well, that, Jenna, points up what I mean about damaged reason. Reason shows that there are too many unknowns for anyone to go further than the possibility of an intelligent Creator of some kind. Reason also questions whether the attempts of humans to contact this creator through prayer, meditation or the like produced anything but an internal effect.
Reason further wonders why it should matter and why one can't take a purely independent stance rather than sign up to some kind of faith.
Reason further looks at the supportive evidence (as i have done here) and find it at best, inconclusive, at worst downright wrong. But still repeated, sometimes after being shown up as not that good, as though it was good evidence. That's what I mean by damaged reason.
So I'd say it is your stance that is unreasonable in the end and your partiality means that you cannot help but see the reasons as an unreasoning rejection of what to you is obvious, because you believe it. That's what I mean by damaged reason.
Quote from: CHB on March 11, 2008, 04:30:00 PM
Quote from: Transponder
I am afraid to 'invite' Faith. It damages the capacity for reason.
Trans,
You have faith that you don't even recognize. :bigGrin: When you get in your car, do you worry about getting where you are going safely? If not, then you have faith. When you go to bed are you scared to death that you won't wake up the next morning? If not, you have faith. Do you worry about your family any? If not, you have faith. Are you afraid to die? If not you have faith.
You see, there are positives and negatives. Positive thinking is an act of faith, negative thinking is a lack of faith. Do you think negative all the time?
CHB
I shall assume that you haven't read any refutations of this logical fallacy, though I suppose there have been some here.
The fallacy is equivocation - faith (through experience) with faith belief through personal beliefs; that is faith through evidence against faith without and in spite of evidence. I know I'm going to die sometime - maybe tomorrow. I could worry about it, but all I can do is to try to see I'm in good health.
Argument from Positive thinking is also a rhetorical trick. Let me show you how. Take your salary and place it on a horse. What? You don't want to risk it? Negative thinking. The fact that that is quite a sensible rejection of long odds against severe financial damage (1)is no less so for being open to having the 'negative' label pinned to it.
You refuse to take drugs? Negative CHB. You go out clobberring passers - by rather than refuse to do so. That's positive!
See, Jenn, this is the damaged reasoning. Not only logical fallacy but ignorance (real or contrived) of the fact that this is a fallacious reasoning.
(1) I await you triumphant "Ha, but I actually won! That proves I'm right." response.
Quote from: Transponder on March 12, 2008, 12:58:02 PM
Quote from: jenna on March 11, 2008, 04:12:32 PM
Actually, IMO, unbelief is what damages the capacity for reason. Many skeptics and atheists are so set in their ways, they are incapable of reasoning that there might actually be a creator God. They absolutely refuse to listen to others POV. :2c:
Well, that, Jenna, points up what I mean about damaged reason. Reason shows that there are too many unknowns for anyone to go further than the possibility of an intelligent Creator of some kind. Reason also questions whether the attempts of humans to contact this creator through prayer, meditation or the like produced anything but an internal effect.
Reason further wonders why it should matter and why one can't take a purely independent stance rather than sign up to some kind of faith.
Reason further looks at the supportive evidence (as i have done here) and find it at best, inconclusive, at worst downright wrong. But still repeated, sometimes after being shown up as not that good, as though it was good evidence. That's what I mean by damaged reason.
So I'd say it is your stance that is unreasonable in the end and your partiality means that you cannot help but see the reasons as an unreasoning rejection of what to you is obvious, because you believe it. That's what I mean by damaged reason.
No, Trans, I am not going to say "Ha! I won!" This is a discussion forum, not a place for someone to get their nose rubbed in something. However, my stance is not unreasonable. I used to not believe in God either. However, it is reasoning that actually won out. Yes, it is obvious to me that God exists, but only because I was willing to open my mind to the possibility that He is real. Many atheists are unwilling, and so use false reasoning to uphold their theory that there cannot be a Creator. This is what damages the capacity for reasoning, the fact that they are so blind to reality that they cannot see the truth, or do not want to. Am I being partial? Maybe. But it is reasoning that brought me to where I am today.
Jenna is right.
For a person to base one's whole life only on scientific logic and reason is not to live. Theoretically, one could not love.. it is irrational, one could not trust any living being, for if they have ever fibbed, how can you trust them? More to the point, much of the world does not consider scientific logic and reason the be all end all of "truth". Everyone sets limits as to what degree of "faith" they have in the world around them, some choose to limit it before they can trust in a creator. This is an arbitrary limit, that the vast majority of the world's population has not set for itself. I personally believe a large number of atheists are afraid of admitting the possibility, so long as there is no God, they are totally in control of their lives. Look around, nobody is really in total control. So who is deluded? Who has lost their sense of reason?
Quote from: Transponder on March 12, 2008, 01:09:53 PM
Quote from: CHB on March 11, 2008, 04:30:00 PM
Quote from: Transponder
I am afraid to 'invite' Faith. It damages the capacity for reason.
Trans,
You have faith that you don't even recognize. :bigGrin: When you get in your car, do you worry about getting where you are going safely? If not, then you have faith. When you go to bed are you scared to death that you won't wake up the next morning? If not, you have faith. Do you worry about your family any? If not, you have faith. Are you afraid to die? If not you have faith.
You see, there are positives and negatives. Positive thinking is an act of faith, negative thinking is a lack of faith. Do you think negative all the time?
CHB
I shall assume that you haven't read any refutations of this logical fallacy, though I suppose there have been some here.
I already know what they are without reading them.
Quote from: Transponder
The fallacy is equivocation - faith (through experience) with faith belief through personal beliefs; that is faith through evidence against faith without and in spite of evidence. I know I'm going to die sometime - maybe tomorrow. I could worry about it, but all I can do is to try to see I'm in good health.
Why worry about your health? Lack of faith? What difference does it make whether you are in good health or not, we all are going to die anyway? Do you think it will make you live longer. {Faith}
Quote from: Transponder
Argument from Positive thinking is also a rhetorical trick. Let me show you how. Take your salary and place it on a horse. What? You don't want to risk it? Negative thinking.
Lack of faith {negative} that the horse will win and I lose my money.
Quote from: Transponder
The fact that that is quite a sensible rejection of long odds against severe financial damage (1)is no less so for being open to having the 'negative' label pinned to it.
You refuse to take drugs? Negative CHB.
No, that is a positive. I have faith that if I don't take drugs my brain won't be fried.
Quote from: Transponder
You go out clobberring passers - by rather than refuse to do so. That's positive!
No, that would be a negative.
Quote from: Transponder
See, Jenn, this is the damaged reasoning. Not only logical fallacy but ignorance (real or contrived) of the fact that this is a fallacious reasoning.
No, it is not my ignorance but your lack of faith in this area. {Negative}
Quote from: Transponder
(1) I await you triumphant "Ha, but I actually won! That proves I'm right." response.
Yes, we all win in the end. {Positive, faith}
CHB
"Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh."
There is a place where I dwell sometimes (not enough) and you know when your there and when your there you enjoy the fruits of the spirit : But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance
This place is not found by reason or logic or scientific study, it is an actual "checking out" of those things and entering into something much different. This place is heaven on earth and when your there something infuses great faith into you....... :HeartThrob:
PEACE and LOVE :girlheart:
Quote from: Loveroftruth on March 13, 2008, 01:43:05 PM
"Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh."
There is a place where I dwell sometimes (not enough) and you know when your there and when your there you enjoy the fruits of the spirit : But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance
This place is not found by reason or logic or scientific study, it is an actual "checking out" of those things and entering into something much different. This place is heaven on earth and when your there something infuses great faith into you....... :HeartThrob:
PEACE and LOVE :girlheart:
Amen! :goodpost: I call it abiding in Him and I wouldn't trade it for anything else!
:cloud9: Amen....... :thumbsup:
Anybody checked these out?
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=58835
http://www.newoxfordreview.org/article.jsp?print=1&did=0308-gallagher
Quote from: jenna on March 12, 2008, 03:57:48 PM
Quote from: Transponder on March 12, 2008, 12:58:02 PM
Quote from: jenna on March 11, 2008, 04:12:32 PM
Actually, IMO, unbelief is what damages the capacity for reason. Many skeptics and atheists are so set in their ways, they are incapable of reasoning that there might actually be a creator God. They absolutely refuse to listen to others POV. :2c:
Well, that, Jenna, points up what I mean about damaged reason. Reason shows that there are too many unknowns for anyone to go further than the possibility of an intelligent Creator of some kind. Reason also questions whether the attempts of humans to contact this creator through prayer, meditation or the like produced anything but an internal effect.
Reason further wonders why it should matter and why one can't take a purely independent stance rather than sign up to some kind of faith.
Reason further looks at the supportive evidence (as i have done here) and find it at best, inconclusive, at worst downright wrong. But still repeated, sometimes after being shown up as not that good, as though it was good evidence. That's what I mean by damaged reason.
So I'd say it is your stance that is unreasonable in the end and your partiality means that you cannot help but see the reasons as an unreasoning rejection of what to you is obvious, because you believe it. That's what I mean by damaged reason.
No, Trans, I am not going to say "Ha! I won!" This is a discussion forum, not a place for someone to get their nose rubbed in something. However, my stance is not unreasonable. I used to not believe in God either. However, it is reasoning that actually won out. Yes, it is obvious to me that God exists, but only because I was willing to open my mind to the possibility that He is real. Many atheists are unwilling, and so use false reasoning to uphold their theory that there cannot be a Creator. This is what damages the capacity for reasoning, the fact that they are so blind to reality that they cannot see the truth, or do not want to. Am I being partial? Maybe. But it is reasoning that brought me to where I am today.
"This is a discussion forum, not a place for someone to get their nose rubbed in something"
So it should be, though it sometimes feels to me that a bit of nose-rubbing goes on on both sides.
"it is obvious to me that God exists, but only because I was willing to open my mind to the possibility that He is real."
I have spent a few days thinking about this because of the point coming up with Fullarmor on the evolution thread, I believe? As I shall say to him when i move there to answer his posts, it is a very effective package; it does conflict with 'reason' in the sense that the logical conclusion that God is real is based only on a number of possibilities.
That there is an intelligent Creation agency,
that this intelligence wants to have a relationship with us,
that the way to do that is meditation of some kind
and that the results of that justify one's religious views.
That is not reason. What it is is an overall possibility amongs a number of others (the "which god" stage.
The package is then based on Pascal's wager - "It might be true; can you afford to take a chance?" The result is then almost guaranteed, as once in a prayer posture, one is going to get the result, or if one doesn't more effort to believe is urged until one's brain clicks into the Faith mode.
So you see why I can't accepy that the 'reasons' are 'reasonable'
Pascal's wager has the justification. 'What have you lost if it isn't ture? At least you've been happy'
What indeed? That's what I have been thinking about. What I would have lost is independence of thought. I don't need to screen my views to see whether God would approve or not. I don't need to put out of my mind awkward questions such as 'What about the other religions? Couldn't they also be true?'
It is a choice in the end. It's like gambling. You might win. In fact, we KNOW that one can win, which is more than one can logically say about the existence of a god. But I don't gamble, because the odds are against it.
QuoteIt is a choice in the end. It's like gambling. You might win. In fact, we KNOW that one can win, which is more than one can logically say about the existence of a god. But I don't gamble, because the odds are against it.
But its not in the "end" that we find out. Its in the now when God walks and talks with you and brings you to a place of adventure with Him... When I slow myself down enough to focus on God and my minute by minute, day by day walk, all kinds of stuff happens, things that He is saying "look at this, I set this up just for you" or "See this, this is such and such"...... there is more evidence in my life that He exist then the evidence that He does not.
Just my life is a testimony of transformation, I was at one point in my life very much into drugs and dealing with large quantities of it. I was very lost, one day my brother handed me a tract and I said the prayer and the next morning something was different, something supernatural, the sky looked bluer! All I know is something happened............ I never got rooted into church yet God just kept drawing me to Him, He dropped into me a deep hunger and I just kept following it.
I look at today and how my life has been one of a caterpillar turning into a butterfly and it was HIS doing, not mine.
I have pretty much been alone most of my walk, its been a narrow road. The greatest evidence of His hand in my life is when I come across many others that God has PERSONALLY shown the same things to, and shared the Same lessons, and Has brought them to the same view of Him! This PROVES to me that there is a God who speaks the same to others, shows the same to others. and the greatest thing for me is that the only revelation that now matters to me is that He says "He is my Father" and His love for me is incredible! :girlheart:
Quote from: Loveroftruth on March 15, 2008, 01:31:14 PMthe next morning something was different, something supernatural, the sky looked bluer!
And the grass was greener - it's like the blinders come off your total being, right?
Quote from: Loveroftruth on March 15, 2008, 01:31:14 PM
I look at today and how my life has been one of a caterpillar turning into a butterfly and it was HIS doing, not mine.
...and that's hard to explain to someone who hasn't experienced it :Sparkletooth:
Quote from: Loveroftruth on March 15, 2008, 01:31:14 PM
I come across many others that God has PERSONALLY shown the same things to, and shared the Same lessons, and Has brought them to the same view of Him! This PROVES to me that there is a God who speaks the same to others, shows the same to others. and the greatest thing for me is that the only revelation that now matters to me is that He says "He is my Father" and His love for me is incredible! :girlheart:
Again, it's hard to explain. If you understand spiritual things though, it makes perfect sense :Sparkletooth:
blessings,
- byron
:cloud9: Amen, LT :thumbsup:
QuoteCHB
Trans,
You have faith that you don't even recognize. :bigGrin: When you get in your car, do you worry about getting where you are going safely? If not, then you have faith. When you go to bed are you scared to death that you won't wake up the next morning? If not, you have faith. Do you worry about your family any? If not, you have faith. Are you afraid to die? If not you have faith.
You see, there are positives and negatives. Positive thinking is an act of faith, negative thinking is a lack of faith. Do you think negative all the time?
CHB
I shall assume that you haven't read any refutations of this logical fallacy, though I suppose there have been some here.[/quote]
QuoteI already know what they are without reading them.
Then why use a logical fallacy in argument. Doesn't that strike you as a bit...illogical?
Quote from: Transponder
The fallacy is equivocation - faith (through experience) with faith belief through personal beliefs; that is faith through evidence against faith without and in spite of evidence. I know I'm going to die sometime - maybe tomorrow. I could worry about it, but all I can do is to try to see I'm in good health.
QuoteWhy worry about your health? Lack of faith? What difference does it make whether you are in good health or not, we all are going to die anyway? Do you think it will make you live longer. {Faith}
If one doesn't believe in an particular religon and the question of an anfterlife is moot, then this life is the only one we have and we should make the best of it. It is a common - and false - assertion that Theists often make about atheists that, without religion, life is not worth living.
Quote from: Transponder
Argument from Positive thinking is also a rhetorical trick. Let me show you how. Take your salary and place it on a horse. What? You don't want to risk it? Negative thinking.
QuoteLack of faith {negative} that the horse will win and I lose my money.
I don't quite follow. If the horse wins, how do you lose? You mean that the negative thinking means that you lose out on the chance that you win? That's how the bookies make fortunes out of the punters. In another sense, not betting means that you save your money. Thats a positive. The thing is that one can tinker about with positives and negatives. Provided that one makes a sensible decision, that is that, and pinning positive or negative labels on it is beside the point. and not very honest.
Quote from: Transponder
The fact that that is quite a sensible rejection of long odds against severe financial damage (1)is no less so for being open to having the 'negative' label pinned to it.
You refuse to take drugs? Negative CHB.
QuoteNo, that is a positive. I have faith that if I don't take drugs my brain won't be fried.
Ok. Then I am refusing to take the religious drug offered to me by Fullarmor on the Evolution thread, because I have seen how it fries the brain. Atheism is thus a positive.
Quote from: Transponder
You go out clobberring passers - by rather than refuse to do so. That's positive!
QuoteNo, that would be a negative.
Because the end result is bad? Then you are changing positive and negative from action or non-action to good result/bad result. You are fiddling the semantics to suit yourself.
Quote from: Transponder
See, CHB, this is the damaged reasoning. Not only logical fallacy but ignorance (real or contrived) of the fact that this is a fallacious reasoning.
QuoteNo, it is not my ignorance but your lack of faith in this area. {Negative}
No, this is not about faith and its benefits or otherwise, but the use or misuse of logic, semantics and logical fallacies.
Quote from: Transponder
(1) I await you triumphant "Ha, but I actually won! That proves I'm right." response.
QuoteYes, we all win in the end. {Positive, faith}
Do we? The fact is that I see Faith as a real danger to an objective, reasoning, lifestyle and therefore not a positive. I know it makes you feel good. So do drugs and booze but there are real dangers in their use, especially if they get control. That's why I say 'faith can seriously damage your reason'. It was a not a smart-alec quip; I really think that. In fact, I see plenty of examples here.
Quote from: Loveroftruth on March 15, 2008, 01:31:14 PM
QuoteIt is a choice in the end. It's like gambling. You might win. In fact, we KNOW that one can win, which is more than one can logically say about the existence of a god. But I don't gamble, because the odds are against it.
But its not in the "end" that we find out. Its in the now when God walks and talks with you and brings you to a place of adventure with Him... When I slow myself down enough to focus on God and my minute by minute, day by day walk, all kinds of stuff happens, things that He is saying "look at this, I set this up just for you" or "See this, this is such and such"...... there is more evidence in my life that He exist then the evidence that He does not.
Just my life is a testimony of transformation, I was at one point in my life very much into drugs and dealing with large quantities of it. I was very lost, one day my brother handed me a tract and I said the prayer and the next morning something was different, something supernatural, the sky looked bluer! All I know is something happened............ I never got rooted into church yet God just kept drawing me to Him, He dropped into me a deep hunger and I just kept following it.
I look at today and how my life has been one of a caterpillar turning into a butterfly and it was HIS doing, not mine.
I have pretty much been alone most of my walk, its been a narrow road. The greatest evidence of His hand in my life is when I come across many others that God has PERSONALLY shown the same things to, and shared the Same lessons, and Has brought them to the same view of Him! This PROVES to me that there is a God who speaks the same to others, shows the same to others. and the greatest thing for me is that the only revelation that now matters to me is that He says "He is my Father" and His love for me is incredible! :girlheart:
I have not been in that position, so I can't comment other than say that I have read many Deconversion stories that said that, once they deconverted, they found that existence was so much more marvellous, the sky bluer, the grass greener, on its own terms rather than being a sort of Commercial for God. I can't say more than that.
Except that I am becoming astonished how many testimonies here involve those whose life was a mess - into drugs, eyc, until they used Christ as a crutch to get walking again. i suppose it isn't my business to say "Cast aside your crutch; you have no further need of it."
QuoteExcept that I am becoming astonished how many testimonies here involve those whose life was a mess - into drugs, eyc, until they used Christ as a crutch to get walking again. i suppose it isn't my business to say "Cast aside your crutch; you have no further need of it."
I totally reject that I used Christ as a crutch - I didn't even know I needed a crutch.
HE changed ME - like Byron says "Blinders came off" and suddenly I could see!
You have set yourself in your believe and hense it will take a Damascus experience for you. Maybe you will get it, maybe you wont.... But it is sad to me because you are missing out on the best thing in life :sigh:
Quote from: Loveroftruth on March 15, 2008, 04:46:36 PM
QuoteExcept that I am becoming astonished how many testimonies here involve those whose life was a mess - into drugs, eyc, until they used Christ as a crutch to get walking again. i suppose it isn't my business to say "Cast aside your crutch; you have no further need of it."
I totally reject that I used Christ as a crutch - I didn't even know I needed a crutch.
HE changed ME - like Byron says "Blinders came off" and suddenly I could see!
You have set yourself in your believe and hense it will take a Damascus experience for you. Maybe you will get it, maybe you wont.... But it is sad to me because you are missing out on the best thing in life :sigh:
"I was at one point in my life very much into drugs and dealing with large quantities of it. I was very lost, one day my brother handed me a tract and I said the prayer and the next morning something was different, something supernatural, the sky looked bluer! All I know is something happened........."
It's forcibly impressed on me that so many conversion testimonies have this sort of thing. Drugs, drink (in the days before drugs was the problem). It's forcibly impressed on me how many could not have got their lives off the ground without the conversion. The crutch-simile seems to fit, though I can understant that you won't like it.
a Phillipine kid once said to James Kirkup "Religion is good for you". One of those apologetics questions that require an answer.
Medicine is good for you, if you are ill. But, once you've recovered, to keep taking the medicine is hypochondria.
Yes, of course, I have come across all the apologetics gambits so I can't be talked into faith. I am not in a complete life-mess and I am happy with my lifestyle, so I am not vulnerable there. So there is nothing left but to hope for some God-imposed mental conversion. Pascal's wager was the last trick in the box.
However, I'm not saying what happened to you isn't real and good for you. What I'm saying is that it cannot be used (as some have tried to use such experiences) as evidence to support Christianity, because this sort of thing can happen in all religions.
Quote from: Transponder on March 15, 2008, 04:12:05 PM
Except that I am becoming astonished how many testimonies here involve those whose life was a mess - into drugs, eyc, until they used Christ as a crutch to get walking again. i suppose it isn't my business to say "Cast aside your crutch; you have no further need of it."
LOL - not a crutch, a stretcher. :mshock: He still carries me. Many times it's those who are pushed way out of their comfort zones who find another dimension. That's why I'm not bitter about my circumstances, past present or future, even though some of them have been/are terrible. But like I said, it's like telling a blind man "Isn't that beautiful?" and he just says "What do you mean? There's nothing there! You're just faking that you're seeing something beautiful and using it as a crutch to be happy".
blessings,
Byron
Quote from: firstborn888 on March 16, 2008, 10:55:43 PM
Quote from: Transponder on March 15, 2008, 04:12:05 PM
Except that I am becoming astonished how many testimonies here involve those whose life was a mess - into drugs, eyc, until they used Christ as a crutch to get walking again. i suppose it isn't my business to say "Cast aside your crutch; you have no further need of it."
LOL - not a crutch, a stretcher. :mshock: He still carries me. Many times it's those who are pushed way out of their comfort zones who find another dimension. That's why I'm not bitter about my circumstances, past present or future, even though some of them have been/are terrible. But like I said, it's like telling a blind man "Isn't that beautiful?" and he just says "What do you mean? There's nothing there! You're just faking that you're seeing something beautiful and using it as a crutch to be happy".
blessings,
Byron
The difference is, Rev. that the blind man can touch the things that a seer can see. The seer can describe something without touching it, while the blind bod checks the description. Like the johannine analogy of the wind, seeing and the air can be demonstrated and proved. The process of seeing can even be described.
However, what of the feeling that you have? Just a feeling, without any evidence to suggest that it has any reality outside of yourself - and others.
That doesn't mean that I'm rubbishing what you feel or what it did for you or still does. I'd be a lot happier with it, though, if it didn't need a lot of religious myth to get the effect working.
Quote from: Transponder on March 16, 2008, 11:01:48 PM
Quote from: firstborn888 on March 16, 2008, 10:55:43 PM
Quote from: Transponder on March 15, 2008, 04:12:05 PM
Except that I am becoming astonished how many testimonies here involve those whose life was a mess - into drugs, eyc, until they used Christ as a crutch to get walking again. i suppose it isn't my business to say "Cast aside your crutch; you have no further need of it."
LOL - not a crutch, a stretcher. :mshock: He still carries me. Many times it's those who are pushed way out of their comfort zones who find another dimension. That's why I'm not bitter about my circumstances, past present or future, even though some of them have been/are terrible. But like I said, it's like telling a blind man "Isn't that beautiful?" and he just says "What do you mean? There's nothing there! You're just faking that you're seeing something beautiful and using it as a crutch to be happy".
blessings,
Byron
The difference is, Rev. that the blind man can touch the things that a seer can see. The seer can describe something without touching it, while the blind bod checks the description. Like the johannine analogy of the wind, seeing and the air can be demonstrated and proved. The process of seeing can even be described.
However, what of the feeling that you have? Just a feeling, without any evidence to suggest that it has any reality outside of yourself - and others.
That doesn't mean that I'm rubbishing what you feel or what it did for you or still does. I'd be a lot happier with it, though, if it didn't need a lot of religious myth to get the effect working.
Okay, the blind thing was a bad analogy. It's more like trying to get a dead person to respond. Dead to spiritual things. I was there, so I get it trans, totally get it.
The coolest thing would be if the contents of that bottle would turn into wine and come spinning off the page and christen you square in the head. :laughing7:
That should do it....
Seriously, I always say that atheists are a step ahead of religious people because when they find the creator it's so genuine and non-religious.
blessings,
- Byron
Trans, here is proof that your last response to me was not anointed
[attachment deleted by admin]
Quote from: firstborn888 on March 17, 2008, 08:17:54 AM
Trans, here is proof that your last response to me was not anointed
:laugh: :thumbsup:
Quote from: firstborn888 on March 17, 2008, 08:17:54 AM
Trans, here is proof that your last response to me was not anointed
At least, not anointed by the good guys :happygrin:
- b
Quote from: firstborn888 on March 17, 2008, 08:05:05 AM
Quote from: Transponder on March 16, 2008, 11:01:48 PM
Quote from: firstborn888 on March 16, 2008, 10:55:43 PM
Quote from: Transponder on March 15, 2008, 04:12:05 PM
Except that I am becoming astonished how many testimonies here involve those whose life was a mess - into drugs, eyc, until they used Christ as a crutch to get walking again. i suppose it isn't my business to say "Cast aside your crutch; you have no further need of it."
LOL - not a crutch, a stretcher. :mshock: He still carries me. Many times it's those who are pushed way out of their comfort zones who find another dimension. That's why I'm not bitter about my circumstances, past present or future, even though some of them have been/are terrible. But like I said, it's like telling a blind man "Isn't that beautiful?" and he just says "What do you mean? There's nothing there! You're just faking that you're seeing something beautiful and using it as a crutch to be happy".
blessings,
Byron
The difference is, Rev. that the blind man can touch the things that a seer can see. The seer can describe something without touching it, while the blind bod checks the description. Like the johannine analogy of the wind, seeing and the air can be demonstrated and proved. The process of seeing can even be described.
However, what of the feeling that you have? Just a feeling, without any evidence to suggest that it has any reality outside of yourself - and others.
That doesn't mean that I'm rubbishing what you feel or what it did for you or still does. I'd be a lot happier with it, though, if it didn't need a lot of religious myth to get the effect working.
Okay, the blind thing was a bad analogy. It's more like trying to get a dead person to respond. Dead to spiritual things. I was there, so I get it trans, totally get it.
Ok, move the analogy along. It amounts to the same thing. People once assumed that comets and lightning were signs from god or gods. Now we know about them no reasonable person supposes that anymore. We don't know much about the process by which a person becomes obessively convinced of the truth of something and how that can become a religion. It's not something that seems to get a high research priority, though the psychology of conviction is something that interests me. But, when we do, then the religious experience ought to go the same way as comets. Or perhaps I should say, thinking that illness is caused by demons.
QuoteThe coolest thing would be if the contents of that bottle would turn into wine and come spinning off the page and christen you square in the head. :laughing7:
That should do it....
Well, like I say, I'm still waiting. It would be So Simple to turn me into a believer. But It isn't going to happen Rev, and what's more I think you all know it isn't going to happen. Because, instead of all praying like the clappers for my bottle of tap to turn into chianti, the only response is Bible-mined quotes excusing why it won't happen.
QuoteSeriously, I always say that atheists are a step ahead of religious people because when they find the creator it's so genuine and non-religious.
blessings,
- Byron
I did a bit of research on conversions in connection with a rather frequent Theist claim that more atheists converted than believers de-converted. From what I could see, the conversions were from 'unthinking' atheists (or, to use your term, unprepared ones). The 'thinking' atheists - the ones that had considered the matter and were prepared for the very persuasive, but essentially fallacious, appeals of the tract and the evangelist, never seemed to be fall for it.
On the other hand, deconversions tended to be from ordinary bods up to ministers and active evangelists, and the reason for the deconversions was having to look for answers to questions, either in arguing with unbelievers or because they couldn't ignore their own brain. It took years, sometimes, but the more they honestly and devotedly looked for the answers that surely must be there, the less sense it all made.
Deconversion is never easy. It often led to someone feeling that they had lost all the meaning from their life. But they couldn't go back. They could no longer believe what was no longer believable. And in the end they found that it was better in the end, when Life, the universe and everything (including thinking) no longer had to be filtered through the mental screens of Faith.
Quote from: firstborn888 on March 17, 2008, 08:17:54 AM
Trans, here is proof that your last response to me was not anointed
Sorry, you lost me. Btw. I only just realized you are Firstborn rather than Rev. G. I get hit by all sorts of posters and - in some ways I suppose it's good - I answer posts on the merit of their content, not on the basis of who posted them.
Quote from: Transponder on March 17, 2008, 10:59:09 AM
Quote from: firstborn888 on March 17, 2008, 08:17:54 AM
Trans, here is proof that your last response to me was not anointed
Sorry, you lost me.
Click on the pic to enlarge - it's post #666 :mshock:
:laughing7:
- byron
Quote from: firstborn888 on March 18, 2008, 10:54:24 AM
Quote from: Transponder on March 17, 2008, 10:59:09 AM
Quote from: firstborn888 on March 17, 2008, 08:17:54 AM
Trans, here is proof that your last response to me was not anointed
Sorry, you lost me.
Click on the pic to enlarge - it's post #666 :mshock:
:laughing7:
- byron
Ah! :winkgrin: I get it. Well you have only 251 posts to go to get as unanointed as me. And if I may have my own little quip:
"absolute indisputable proof of UR: granddaughters"
Quite as good as any other proof I've seen here.
Quote from: firstborn888 on March 18, 2008, 10:54:24 AM
Quote from: Transponder on March 17, 2008, 10:59:09 AM
Quote from: firstborn888 on March 17, 2008, 08:17:54 AM
Trans, here is proof that your last response to me was not anointed
Sorry, you lost me.
Click on the pic to enlarge - it's post #666 :mshock:
:laughing7:
- byron
Post #666? No wondwer he was lost... :mshock:
Hi there !
Very interesting testimony ^__^
I should say that the Spirit indeed gives very beautifull life . Dont believe too much in philosophies of people,that is a great doctrine you need to keep on . It is nice to see others practissing belief in the Spirit and aknowledging it in their hearts .
You say you have your God in your head ,but i simply think that this is becouse you cant connect Him that much with what many people think ,becouse you have Him qite deeply .I wish you two more and more happyness !
Quote from: jenna on March 18, 2008, 03:31:03 PM
Quote from: firstborn888 on March 18, 2008, 10:54:24 AM
Quote from: Transponder on March 17, 2008, 10:59:09 AM
Quote from: firstborn888 on March 17, 2008, 08:17:54 AM
Trans, here is proof that your last response to me was not anointed
Sorry, you lost me.
Click on the pic to enlarge - it's post #666 :mshock:
:laughing7:
- byron
Post #666? No wondwer he was lost... :mshock:
Is that your best counter - argument? "Post 666..Hee Hee"
Is that what it comes down to in the end? Either cheap sniping or simply the sour restating of discredited fallacies as does Molly?
I know that you people are not stupid. I refuse to believe that you cannot think logically and reasonably. I cannot believe that, after so much discussion, you are all unable or unwilling to do other than just shut it out of your minds and go back to (as Sib on Atheist Network put it) the 'fingers-in-the -ears song' "La-la-la-la happy place...happy place..."
Quote from: Transponder on March 19, 2008, 11:17:16 AM
Is that your best counter - argument? "Post 666..Hee Hee"
Ooops, I was unaware that I was in an argument :mshock:
blessings,
- byron
No, Firstborn. Your quip was just a joke and I'm ok with that. Jenna's was not funny and was just a sly implication that all I say is nonsense because I am 'Lost', as supposedly proven by having reached six hundred and sixty - six posts.
You can perhaps understand why I would expect better arguments from a person who can presumably operate a computer without fusing all the lights.
Quote from: V.I.D. on March 18, 2008, 05:42:06 PM
Hi there !
Very interesting testimony ^__^
I should say that the Spirit indeed gives very beautifull life . Dont believe too much in philosophies of people,that is a great doctrine you need to keep on . It is nice to see others practissing belief in the Spirit and aknowledging it in their hearts .
You say you have your God in your head ,but i simply think that this is becouse you cant connect Him that much with what many people think ,becouse you have Him qite deeply .I wish you two more and more happyness !
"Hazel considered this lot briefly, but it beat him" (Watership Down)
Quote from: Transponder on March 19, 2008, 01:17:37 PM
No, Firstborn. Your quip was just a joke and I'm ok with that. Jenna's was not funny and was just a sly implication that all I say is nonsense because I am 'Lost', as supposedly proven by having reached six hundred and sixty - six posts.
You can perhaps understand why I would expect better arguments from a person who can presumably operate a computer without fusing all the lights.
Ok, Trans. You read a little too much into my post. It was a joke and was not meant as a slight against you.
Quote from: jenna on March 19, 2008, 04:27:13 PM
Quote from: Transponder on March 19, 2008, 01:17:37 PM
No, Firstborn. Your quip was just a joke and I'm ok with that. Jenna's was not funny and was just a sly implication that all I say is nonsense because I am 'Lost', as supposedly proven by having reached six hundred and sixty - six posts.
You can perhaps understand why I would expect better arguments from a person who can presumably operate a computer without fusing all the lights.
Ok, Trans. You read a little too much into my post. It was a joke and was not meant as a slight against you.
Ok. If you say it was just intended as a joke, I accept that and I apologize for my irascible tone.
I sometimes get carried away, I'll admit. But I have never intentionally cut someone down just for the fun of it. :thumbsup:
Don't feel bad about the 666 trans - it's even worse for me - check it out:
[attachment deleted by admin]
Ok folks. I don't mind at all.
In fact I rather wonder whether this subject has been pretty well worked out. I think we all agree on where we stand, even if it ain't the same spot.
Of course, if anyone has some new angle or input, only too glad to discuss.
Quote from: Transponder on March 21, 2008, 12:00:17 AM
Ok folks. I don't mind at all.
In fact I rather wonder whether this subject has been pretty well worked out. I think we all agree on where we stand, even if it ain't the same spot.
Of course, if anyone has some new angle or input, only too glad to discuss.
Yeah, I've heard it said that when either Hitler or the mark of the beast comes up in a thread it's a sign that the discussion is winding down.....
- b
:happygrin: Yes, the same thing happens on the AN forum.