I just finished a new study on why I believe the second coming of the Messiah is just under 8 years away from today. Although no one knows the day nor the hour, we can come to know the year, just as the Israelites knew the year of their own deliverance, since Abraham was told "your descendants shall be afflicted 400 years". My research is based on counting the known genealogies beginning from Adam, also certain timelines of the scriptures, like the entrance of the Israelites into Egypt, and their exodus (taking into account several misconceptions of when the 430 and 400 year timelines to the exodus of Israel from Egypt actually began), also when the first temple was constructed, then the timelines of the kings of Judah (taking into account coregencies), then the 490 years prophecy of Daniel, then the timeline from the baptism of the Messiah to today, also the Jubilee cycles of the Torah, also the 1,290+1335 years of Daniel and how they relate to the Dome of the Rock and the time of the end, and ultimately, why the Messiah would indeed come on a Year 6000 and why his rulership is one thousand years on earth. I have also converted the calculated years since the beginning into Gregorian years, where it can be seen that the calculated Gregorian year of those events do indeed line up with the approximate known year of those events by experts. http://www.wisdomofgod.co/2018/11/06/when-the-year-of-the-second-coming-will-be-the-millennial-shabbat-of-the-year-6000-yb-jubilees-and-the-12901335-days-of-daniel/ .
You might want to fix a couple things right off:
#1. We can know the day and hour. The reference in Matthew 24:36 was stated in the PERFECT Tense.
The apostles had not yet received the Holy Spirit and would be able to know the Day and Hour until they did receive it. See Acts 1 when they get the POWER then they can know and that comes from receipt of the Holy Spirit. Also consider the following:
Rev 3:3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
Now we can use the inverse of that verse which would be - if you do watch, He wont come on you as a thief, because you will know the hour.
#2. Jubilees are 50 years but they are counted in 49 year cycles. Therefore it is 1,2,3...50/1
You see the 50th year is ALSO the first year of the new cycle.
Hope that helps.
Quote from: trettep on November 07, 2018, 09:59:02 PM
You might want to fix a couple things right off:
#1. We can know the day and hour. The reference in Matthew 24:36 was stated in the PERFECT Tense.
The apostles had not yet received the Holy Spirit and would be able to know the Day and Hour until they did receive it. See Acts 1 when they get the POWER then they can know and that comes from receipt of the Holy Spirit. Also consider the following:
Rev 3:3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
Now we can use the inverse of that verse which would be - if you do watch, He wont come on you as a thief, because you will know the hour.
#2. Jubilees are 50 years but they are counted in 49 year cycles. Therefore it is 1,2,3...50/1
You see the 50th year is ALSO the first year of the new cycle.
Hope that helps.
Jubilees are counted with 49 year cycles because there are 7 x 7 Shabbat cycles within each 50th Jubilee year set. As such, Jubilees are every 50 years, not every 49 years. MOD EDIT Clearly God gave us his appointed times not so that we would be ignorant, but so that we be informed. MOD EDIT
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"But concerning that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only." (Matthew 24:36)
Therefore, when they had come together, they asked Him, saying, "Lord, will You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?" 7 And He said to them, "It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has put in His own authority." (Acts 1:6-7)
Unfortunately, in my opinion, all of the careful analysis will lead to just one more failed prophecy in a church age littered with them.
Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John
I think that is a good argument to say that Jesus now knows what time is His return. Maybe at that time He did not, but then God revealed it to Jesus.
We are told to watch for signs. Especially when more and more are being fulfilled lately, there comes a point I think that you can't ignore them anymore.
I also see that unlike past predictions, they aren't wild guesses, but based on things like genealogies. Sure, there are many false prophets, but that does not mean there are not any true prophets. Sure, we may not know the day nor hour, but that doesn't mean we cannot know the week or month or year.
Example, look at the next verse of the Matthew one:
Mat 24:37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
I haven't been given any special revelation on this, but I do think we are quite close to His return. The bunch of liars and false prophets make it quite off-putting, but it just makes us appreciate the truth even more.
Quote from: Shev on November 08, 2018, 03:12:23 AM
"But concerning that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only." (Matthew 24:36)
Therefore, when they had come together, they asked Him, saying, "Lord, will You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?" 7 And He said to them, "It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has put in His own authority." (Acts 1:6-7)
Unfortunately, in my opinion, all of the careful analysis will lead to just one more failed prophecy in a church age littered with them.
Hi Shev,
I just want to address the verses you mentioned. They don't say what you think they do. They verb doesn't use the FUTURE tense. It uses the Perfect Tense. So we shouldn't try to apply to any future event outside of the time when Jesus spoke it because He didn't say it that way.
Additionally, if it was true it would contradict other verses that show we can know such as in ACTS 1 upon receiving the Holy Spirit.
Not trying to be terse with you, just wanting to ensure we all preaching the Truth.
This isn't from me, but wanted to share it:
"Days and Hours
When the disciples privately asked Jesus, in Matthew 24:3,
3 Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
He answered in verse 4, "Take heed that no man deceive you." Then He went on to explain that even though "of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only" (verse 36), nevertheless "as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be" (verse 37). As God gave advance notice of the first Flood, so also will He do before the Flood of the Spirit. Luke makes this even more plain, as he differentiates between the servant "which knew his Lord's Will" (Luke 12:47) and "he that knew not" (Luke 12:48).
Psalm 25:14 says, "The secret of the LORD is with them that fear him; and he will shew them his covenant." Yes, God does reveal His secrets to men. He only hides them when it is not appropriate for us to know the times and seasons. It is now time for God to reveal these things, because we are at the end of the Age of Pentecost.
The Feast of Tabernacles stands before us. God is separating the barley from the wheat. The time of parables is over, for they were made to hide the mysteries of God (Mark 13:10-17). It is now time for the fulfillment of Matthew 13:35, "I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world."
Quote from: MusicLover123 on November 08, 2018, 07:31:04 PM
This isn't from me, but wanted to share it:
"Days and Hours
When the disciples privately asked Jesus, in Matthew 24:3,
3 Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
He answered in verse 4, "Take heed that no man deceive you." Then He went on to explain that even though "of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only" (verse 36), nevertheless "as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be" (verse 37). As God gave advance notice of the first Flood, so also will He do before the Flood of the Spirit. Luke makes this even more plain, as he differentiates between the servant "which knew his Lord's Will" (Luke 12:47) and "he that knew not" (Luke 12:48).
Psalm 25:14 says, "The secret of the LORD is with them that fear him; and he will shew them his covenant." Yes, God does reveal His secrets to men. He only hides them when it is not appropriate for us to know the times and seasons. It is now time for God to reveal these things, because we are at the end of the Age of Pentecost.
The Feast of Tabernacles stands before us. God is separating the barley from the wheat. The time of parables is over, for they were made to hide the mysteries of God (Mark 13:10-17). It is now time for the fulfillment of Matthew 13:35, "I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world."
I think one of the greatest tragedies in these times is that people believe that they CAN'T know the day and hour of His return.
Quote from: trettep on November 08, 2018, 05:57:50 AM
Quote from: Shev on November 08, 2018, 03:12:23 AM
"But concerning that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only." (Matthew 24:36)
Therefore, when they had come together, they asked Him, saying, "Lord, will You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?" 7 And He said to them, "It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has put in His own authority." (Acts 1:6-7)
Unfortunately, in my opinion, all of the careful analysis will lead to just one more failed prophecy in a church age littered with them.
Hi Shev,
I just want to address the verses you mentioned. They don't say what you think they do. They verb doesn't use the FUTURE tense. It uses the Perfect Tense. So we shouldn't try to apply to any future event outside of the time when Jesus spoke it because He didn't say it that way.
Additionally, if it was true it would contradict other verses that show we can know such as in ACTS 1 upon receiving the Holy Spirit.
Not trying to be terse with you, just wanting to ensure we all preaching the Truth.
It's a bit like trying to prove a negative - "Because Christ only said He did not know at that time, He must now know!" or "Because He told them that at THAT time, it was not for them to know dates and seasons God has set under His control, it must mean that believers in THIS time are supposed to know!" I am not saying it is impossible, just not necessarily a logical consequence. So if anything Christ said then must be future tense to have implication for us now, we will find ourselves down some rather confined cul-de-sacs!
Of course we all feel it is "soon" - even the fact that we are two thousands years since Christ's incarnation causes a thrill of a excitement to pass through all of us! Though it should also be noted that the phrase "second coming" does not appear in scripture, and has causes many of His comings to become conflated.
The reasons for why we can know the time (week, month, year, whatever) are no different than those given for the thousands upon thousands of failed date settings to the present time. What makes us superior to all of these other saints who earnestly believed that they knew the precise time? Many sincere saints have keenly studied to figure out precise equations that point to a specific date (perhaps the problem is in the end of that sentence!)
I believe there is a practical reason we are not given the exact times - we should have our eyes on Christ, rather than a calendar. His coming is a spiritual mystery first of all, unfolded indeed in the realm of time and space, but originating in heavenly places. As soon as we think we have nailed down a temporal aspect of a spiritual mystery (and by definition time IS temporal) we are in danger of losing focus.
Quote from: Shev on November 09, 2018, 07:07:39 AM
Quote from: trettep on November 08, 2018, 05:57:50 AM
Quote from: Shev on November 08, 2018, 03:12:23 AM
"But concerning that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only." (Matthew 24:36)
Therefore, when they had come together, they asked Him, saying, "Lord, will You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?" 7 And He said to them, "It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has put in His own authority." (Acts 1:6-7)
Unfortunately, in my opinion, all of the careful analysis will lead to just one more failed prophecy in a church age littered with them.
Hi Shev,
I just want to address the verses you mentioned. They don't say what you think they do. They verb doesn't use the FUTURE tense. It uses the Perfect Tense. So we shouldn't try to apply to any future event outside of the time when Jesus spoke it because He didn't say it that way.
Additionally, if it was true it would contradict other verses that show we can know such as in ACTS 1 upon receiving the Holy Spirit.
Not trying to be terse with you, just wanting to ensure we all preaching the Truth.
It's a bit like trying to prove a negative - "Because Christ only said He did not know at that time, He must now know!" or "Because He told them that at THAT time, it was not for them to know dates and seasons God has set under His control, it must mean that believers in THIS time are supposed to know!" I am not saying it is impossible, just not necessarily a logical consequence. So if anything Christ said then must be future tense to have implication for us now, we will find ourselves down some rather confined cul-de-sacs!
Of course we all feel it is "soon" - even the fact that we are two thousands years since Christ's incarnation causes a thrill of a excitement to pass through all of us! Though it should also be noted that the phrase "second coming" does not appear in scripture, and has causes many of His comings to become conflated.
The reasons for why we can know the time (week, month, year, whatever) are no different than those given for the thousands upon thousands of failed date settings to the present time. What makes us superior to all of these other saints who earnestly believed that they knew the precise time? Many sincere saints have keenly studied to figure out precise equations that point to a specific date (perhaps the problem is in the end of that sentence!)
I believe there is a practical reason we are not given the exact times - we should have our eyes on Christ, rather than a calendar. His coming is a spiritual mystery first of all, unfolded indeed in the realm of time and space, but originating in heavenly places. As soon as we think we have nailed down a temporal aspect of a spiritual mystery (and by definition time IS temporal) we are in danger of losing focus.
It is wrong thinking and easily disproved. Take the following:
Mat 24:36 But of that day and hour
knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
Mat 24:36 ButG1161 ofG4012 thatG1565 dayG2250 andG2532 hourG5610
knowethG1492 noG3762 man, no, notG3761 theG3588 angelsG32 of heaven,G3772 butG1508 myG3450 FatherG3962 only.G3441
Mat 24:36 περιG4012 PREP δεG1161 CONJ τηςG3588 T-GSF ημεραςG2250 N-GSF εκεινηςG1565 D-GSF καιG2532 CONJ τηςG3588 T-GSF ωραςG5610 N-GSF ουδειςG3762 A-NSM-N
οιδενG1492 V-RAI-3S ουδεG3761 CONJ-N οιG3588 T-NPM αγγελοιG32 N-NPM τωνG3588 T-GPM ουρανωνG3772 N-GPM ειG1487 COND μηG3361 PRT-N οG3588 T-NSM πατηρG3962 N-NSM μουG1473 P-1GS μονοςG3441 A-NSM
Take that parsing above. It is showing Perfect tense for the verb which is a form of PRESENT tense when it was stated.
Personally, I think we should live our lives the best we can and not concern ourselves with when the second coming is.
Jesus didn't know the time or date, so why should we be privey to it?
And, how is this going to change our lives, day to day?
Jesus said we will be caught off guard, and we will be living our lives when all of a sudden, the time will be here.
The best thing we can do to prepare for death or the second coming, is to live each day, walking with the Lord, as Noah did. And, trust the Lord, the way Noah did. And, follow the Law of Love, that Jesus gave to us.
I agree with Shev:
I believe there is a practical reason we are not given the exact times - we should have our eyes on Christ, rather than a calendar. His coming is a spiritual mystery first of all, unfolded indeed in the realm of time and space, but originating in heavenly places. As soon as we think we have nailed down a temporal aspect of a spiritual mystery (and by definition time IS temporal) we are in danger of losing focus.
I guess I say this everytime this topic comes up........which is often.
My :2c:
D.
Quote from: trettep on November 08, 2018, 05:57:50 AM
Quote from: Shev on November 08, 2018, 03:12:23 AM
"But concerning that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only." (Matthew 24:36)
Therefore, when they had come together, they asked Him, saying, "Lord, will You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?" 7 And He said to them, "It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has put in His own authority." (Acts 1:6-7)
Unfortunately, in my opinion, all of the careful analysis will lead to just one more failed prophecy in a church age littered with them.
Hi Shev,
I just want to address the verses you mentioned. They don't say what you think they do. They verb doesn't use the FUTURE tense. It uses the Perfect Tense. So we shouldn't try to apply to any future event outside of the time when Jesus spoke it because He didn't say it that way.
Additionally, if it was true it would contradict other verses that show we can know such as in ACTS 1 upon receiving the Holy Spirit.
Not trying to be terse with you, just wanting to ensure we all preaching the Truth.
The night only has so many hours, and let us say the Master says to his servants in a house, "I am coming in the night!". When it was 6:00pm, no one knew if the Master was coming in an hour, or two hours, or three hours, or six hours, or even nine hours..... this was the apostle and believers around 2,000 years ago..... but then let us say it is now 5:00am, just before the crack of dawn, then surely the servants know the Master is about to come, in that final hour, knowing it is the latest time, in the evening, that he would come. That is us now, around 2,000 years later, because the latest the Messiah would indeed come, is the Year 6000. The coming of the Messiah is not just some random event, it is a calculated event, at a precise time, at a precise year, that corresponds to the appointed times of the Torah, just as his first coming corresponded to the appointed times of the Torah. We do know the year of the second coming of the Messiah, because of the appointed times given to us, and even from ancient writings in epistles not included in the canon back then they knew the Messiah would return for begin the millennial Shabbat, this isn't any new information, its whats been predestined since the very beginning. The reason knowing this is important is because of the sense of urgency. We are truly in the last hour. Around 8 years left. IT IS TIME TO PREPARE IF YOU HAVENT DONE SO ALREADY.
Quote from: trettep on November 08, 2018, 05:57:50 AM
Quote from: Shev on November 08, 2018, 03:12:23 AM
"But concerning that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only." (Matthew 24:36)
Therefore, when they had come together, they asked Him, saying, "Lord, will You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?" 7 And He said to them, "It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has put in His own authority." (Acts 1:6-7)
Unfortunately, in my opinion, all of the careful analysis will lead to just one more failed prophecy in a church age littered with them.
Hi Shev,
I just want to address the verses you mentioned. They don't say what you think they do. They verb doesn't use the FUTURE tense. It uses the Perfect Tense. So we shouldn't try to apply to any future event outside of the time when Jesus spoke it because He didn't say it that way.
Additionally, if it was true it would contradict other verses that show we can know such as in ACTS 1 upon receiving the Holy Spirit.
Not trying to be terse with you, just wanting to ensure we all preaching the Truth.
The night only has so many hours, and let us say the Master says to his servants in a house, "I am coming in the night!". When it was 6:00pm, no one knew if the Master was coming in an hour, or two hours, or three hours, or six hours, or even nine hours..... this was the apostle and believers around 2,000 years ago..... but then let us say it is now 5:00am, just before the crack of dawn, then surely the servants know the Master is about to come, in that final hour, knowing it is the latest time, in the evening, that he would come. That is us now, around 2,000 years later, because the latest the Messiah would indeed come, is the Year 6000. The coming of the Messiah is not just some random event, it is a calculated event, at a precise time, at a precise year, that corresponds to the appointed times of the Torah, just as his first coming corresponded to the appointed times of the Torah. We do know the year of the second coming of the Messiah, because of the appointed times given to us, and even from ancient writings in epistles not included in the canon back then they knew the Messiah would return for begin the millennial Shabbat, this isn't any new information, its whats been predestined since the very beginning. And now that around 2,000 years have passed since his anointing, and our approach to the Year 6000, now we truly we are approaching the final hour when he would indeed appear. The reason knowing this is important is because of the sense of urgency. We are truly in the last hour. Around 8 years left. IT IS TIME TO PREPARE IF YOU HAVEN'T DONE SO ALREADY. This knowledge is not based on what wackos have said over hundreds of year, giving stupid reasons to predict the second coming, like "oh because there are 3 stars there, so in 3 years it will happen". No, this knowledge is based on genealogies and timelines of the bible, on prophetic timelines of Daniel, which are exact, and the appointed times of the Torah, like Shabbats and Jubilees. It is rock solid. BELIEVE.
Quote from: Dandelion on November 09, 2018, 11:38:43 AM
Personally, I think we should live our lives the best we can and not concern ourselves with when the second coming is.
Jesus didn't know the time or date, so why should we be privey to it?
And, how is this going to change our lives, day to day?
Jesus said we will be caught off guard, and we will be living our lives when all of a sudden, the time will be here.
The best thing we can do to prepare for death or the second coming, is to live each day, walking with the Lord, as Noah did. And, trust the Lord, the way Noah did. And, follow the Law of Love, that Jesus gave to us.
I agree with Shev:
I believe there is a practical reason we are not given the exact times - we should have our eyes on Christ, rather than a calendar. His coming is a spiritual mystery first of all, unfolded indeed in the realm of time and space, but originating in heavenly places. As soon as we think we have nailed down a temporal aspect of a spiritual mystery (and by definition time IS temporal) we are in danger of losing focus.
I guess I say this everytime this topic comes up........which is often.
My :2c:
D.
Jesus said to watch. He even warned about not watching. He showed that those watching will come to know the day and hour.
Jesus gives a very powerful warning about not knowing the TIME of His visitation:
Luk 19:43 For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side,
Luk 19:44 And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because t
hou knewest not the time of thy visitation.
Let's go through this verse:
Rev 3:3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
We learn the following from that verse:
not watching results in Him coming as a Thief in an hour you will not know.
therefore,
watching results in Him coming NOT as a Thief in an hour you WILL know.
Quote from: trettep on November 07, 2018, 09:59:02 PM
You might want to fix a couple things right off:
#1. We can know the day and hour. The reference in Matthew 24:36 was stated in the PERFECT Tense.
The apostles had not yet received the Holy Spirit and would be able to know the Day and Hour until they did receive it. See Acts 1 when they get the POWER then they can know and that comes from receipt of the Holy Spirit. Also consider the following:
Rev 3:3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
Now we can use the inverse of that verse which would be - if you do watch, He wont come on you as a thief, because you will know the hour.
#2. Jubilees are 50 years but they are counted in 49 year cycles. Therefore it is 1,2,3...50/1
You see the 50th year is ALSO the first year of the new cycle.
Hope that helps.
The other possibility is more in the pattern of the cycle of sevens, or of the week, and of the shemita (however it's spelled). That it's six years of work (the land) and one year of rest. Then the cycle began all over. year-1-6,7; 1-6,7; not 1-6,7/1-6,7/1-6,7/1 -- so the same pattern of 1-49,50(Jub); 1-49,50; 1-49,50... [sun-fri,sat; sun-fri,sat - or - sun-fri,sat/sun-fri,sat/sun]
The two possibilities being:
year1-49,50/1-49,50/1
or
1-49,50; 1-49,50;
:Peace2:
As far as the math and how to reckon it? - Blessed is the one who waits for and reaches the end of the 1,335 days. (Daniel 12:12)
..blessed/happy the one who waits and comes to 1,335 days.. Or, blessed/happy the one who waits and comes to 1,335 years?
I think it must be good to understand bible prophecy, as it's part of the bible.. But of course! The most important thing, according to the Rev. letters, is to be a Philadelphian!
I feel like all of us have a certain amount of responsibility to be able to pass along the information in a clear, simple and down to earth manner.. well, truth, I guess as opposed to what is not as true.. Because, we all know there's lots of theories about, especially on the world wide web.. So to me the question is, how do we determine true from not true? Same as with every other biblical issue, by reading, study, prayer.. but really, the basics is, isn't it? that we don't know dates, but man's world is likely to one day implode and Jesus returns, "lest all flesh perish".. So what do we "watch".. and therefor not be caught unaware? We watch what's going on in the world. And if we know our bibles.. won't we recognize certain things should they occur?
Not that the calendar, so to speak, can't become clearer and clearer.. But as of yet, especially, it's hard to be real dogmatic about it.. as far as events, and surely as far as dates go.. My eyes glazed over when I read the OP link, the second half or so of the article which was the adding of years, and all.. so how would I know what math is correct and which isn't?But I would agree, if we divided history up into 24 hours, we are likely in the last hour.. but as far as being fully convinced of a specific year..?
And His return, is only the 'beginning'.. I think Daniel 12:11,12 is the calendar of His return, and the Spirit decodes it.. and I believe there's a huge clue in the verses which tell us if the days should be reckoned as days or years.. For that day --> one sign & count the days from.. Easy, peasey..
:gsmile:
Quote from: marie glen on November 09, 2018, 10:47:20 PM
Quote from: trettep on November 07, 2018, 09:59:02 PM
You might want to fix a couple things right off:
#1. We can know the day and hour. The reference in Matthew 24:36 was stated in the PERFECT Tense.
The apostles had not yet received the Holy Spirit and would be able to know the Day and Hour until they did receive it. See Acts 1 when they get the POWER then they can know and that comes from receipt of the Holy Spirit. Also consider the following:
Rev 3:3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
Now we can use the inverse of that verse which would be - if you do watch, He wont come on you as a thief, because you will know the hour.
#2. Jubilees are 50 years but they are counted in 49 year cycles. Therefore it is 1,2,3...50/1
You see the 50th year is ALSO the first year of the new cycle.
Hope that helps.
The other possibility is more in the pattern of the cycle of sevens, or of the week, and of the shemita (however it's spelled). That it's six years of work (the land) and one year of rest. Then the cycle began all over. year-1-6,7; 1-6,7; not 1-6,7/1-6,7/1-6,7/1 -- so the same pattern of 1-49,50(Jub); 1-49,50; 1-49,50... [sun-fri,sat; sun-fri,sat - or - sun-fri,sat/sun-fri,sat/sun]
The two possibilities being:
year1-49,50/1-49,50/1
or
1-49,50; 1-49,50;
:Peace2:
The Bible tells you to count it by 49 years:
Lev 25:8 And thou shalt number seven sabbaths of years unto thee, seven times seven years; and the space of the seven sabbaths of years shall be unto thee
forty and nine years.
That means it would proceed as follows:
49 years
49 years
49 years
49 years
.....
But to observe the 50 Jubilee results in a celebration of liberty on the 50th year.
Lev 25:9 Then shalt thou cause the trumpet of the jubile to sound on the tenth day of the seventh month, in the day of atonement shall ye make the trumpet sound throughout all your land.
Lev 25:10 And ye shall hallow the
fiftieth year, and proclaim liberty throughout all the land unto all the inhabitants thereof: it shall be a jubile unto you; and ye shall return every man unto his possession, and ye shall return every man unto his family.
Now when you realize that it is accordingly 50/1 then you will see that the year corresponding to the liberty would be the 1 year in the week of years. That would correspond to the first day of the week - thus Sunday - the Day that Jesus was Risen on.
It all fits so nicely.
Quote from: trettep on November 09, 2018, 11:59:00 PM
Quote from: marie glen on November 09, 2018, 10:47:20 PM
Quote from: trettep on November 07, 2018, 09:59:02 PM
You might want to fix a couple things right off:
#1. We can know the day and hour. The reference in Matthew 24:36 was stated in the PERFECT Tense.
The apostles had not yet received the Holy Spirit and would be able to know the Day and Hour until they did receive it. See Acts 1 when they get the POWER then they can know and that comes from receipt of the Holy Spirit. Also consider the following:
Rev 3:3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
Now we can use the inverse of that verse which would be - if you do watch, He wont come on you as a thief, because you will know the hour.
#2. Jubilees are 50 years but they are counted in 49 year cycles. Therefore it is 1,2,3...50/1
You see the 50th year is ALSO the first year of the new cycle.
Hope that helps.
The other possibility is more in the pattern of the cycle of sevens, or of the week, and of the shemita (however it's spelled). That it's six years of work (the land) and one year of rest. Then the cycle began all over. year-1-6,7; 1-6,7; not 1-6,7/1-6,7/1-6,7/1 -- so the same pattern of 1-49,50(Jub); 1-49,50; 1-49,50... [sun-fri,sat; sun-fri,sat - or - sun-fri,sat/sun-fri,sat/sun]
The two possibilities being:
year1-49,50/1-49,50/1
or
1-49,50; 1-49,50;
:Peace2:
The Bible tells you to count it by 49 years:
Lev 25:8 And thou shalt number seven sabbaths of years unto thee, seven times seven years; and the space of the seven sabbaths of years shall be unto thee forty and nine years.
That means it would proceed as follows:
49 years
49 years
49 years
49 years
.....
But to observe the 50 Jubilee results in a celebration of liberty on the 50th year.
Lev 25:9 Then shalt thou cause the trumpet of the jubile to sound on the tenth day of the seventh month, in the day of atonement shall ye make the trumpet sound throughout all your land.
Lev 25:10 And ye shall hallow the fiftieth year, and proclaim liberty throughout all the land unto all the inhabitants thereof: it shall be a jubile unto you; and ye shall return every man unto his possession, and ye shall return every man unto his family.
Now when you realize that it is accordingly 50/1 then you will see that the year corresponding to the liberty would be the 1 year in the week of years. That would correspond to the first day of the week - thus Sunday - the Day that Jesus was Risen on.
It all fits so nicely.
The shabbat years are every seven years. Seven shabbat years will be 49 years. Then, on the 50th year is the jubilee year, which is every 50 years, with seven shabbat years within each 50th set. This is not difficult to understand.
Here is a better way for you to understand it:
It's calculate every 49 years and then after that is 50/1. Therefore, we have the following:
first 50th year there were a total of 50 years
second 50th year there were a total of 99 years.
third 50th year there were a total of 148 years.
forth 50th year there was a total of 197 years
You notice the total years are NOT 50, 100, 150, 200. That is because we drop a year each Jubilee (50th year) because of how the Jubilees are calculated.
...that's the point.. it's debated which way to count the Jubilees.. :Peace2: :gsmile:
Also, if one sets a date for Jesus' return -- and the events previous to His return (and tell others) - if the date is actually sooner, will you/they be "caught unaware"?
If the date passes and He has not returned... will you/they be later "caught unawares" through disillusionment..?
Whereas Jesus said to always be expecting.. thus ready.. especially spiritually.. but there is also this "Isaiah 26:20,
Go, my people, enter your rooms and shut your doors behind you. Hide yourselves a little while until the indignation has passed."
(so it seems to me what would work best, isn't a "date" but a something to watch for, and then count days, Dn.12:11,12. (note: one cannot wait and come to 1,335 years).
But most importantly remain a Philadelphian (of "brotherly love" for more than just ones like ones' self! Which UR seems to bear fruit of more so than Et). Rev. 3:10 ....will keep thee from the hour of the trial that is to come upon all the world, to try those dwelling upon the earth..
Quote from: trettep on November 09, 2018, 03:52:01 PM
Quote from: Dandelion on November 09, 2018, 11:38:43 AM
Personally, I think we should live our lives the best we can and not concern ourselves with when the second coming is.
Jesus didn't know the time or date, so why should we be privey to it?
And, how is this going to change our lives, day to day?
Jesus said we will be caught off guard, and we will be living our lives when all of a sudden, the time will be here.
The best thing we can do to prepare for death or the second coming, is to live each day, walking with the Lord, as Noah did. And, trust the Lord, the way Noah did. And, follow the Law of Love, that Jesus gave to us.
I agree with Shev:
I believe there is a practical reason we are not given the exact times - we should have our eyes on Christ, rather than a calendar. His coming is a spiritual mystery first of all, unfolded indeed in the realm of time and space, but originating in heavenly places. As soon as we think we have nailed down a temporal aspect of a spiritual mystery (and by definition time IS temporal) we are in danger of losing focus.
I guess I say this everytime this topic comes up........which is often.
My :2c:
D.
Jesus said to watch. He even warned about not watching. He showed that those watching will come to know the day and hour.
Jesus gives a very powerful warning about not knowing the TIME of His visitation:
Luk 19:43 For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side,
Luk 19:44 And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation.
Let's go through this verse:
Rev 3:3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
We learn the following from that verse:
not watching results in Him coming as a Thief in an hour you will not know.
therefore,
watching results in Him coming NOT as a Thief in an hour you WILL know.
As I see it, we must always watch. Whether the end of the world, or our own lives.....we need to keep our eyes on Him.
D.
Quote from: trettep on November 10, 2018, 04:49:17 AM
Here is a better way for you to understand it:
It's calculate every 49 years and then after that is 50/1. Therefore, we have the following:
first 50th year there were a total of 50 years
second 50th year there were a total of 99 years.
third 50th year there were a total of 148 years.
forth 50th year there was a total of 197 years
You notice the total years are NOT 50, 100, 150, 200. That is because we drop a year each Jubilee (50th year) because of how the Jubilees are calculated.
What you said doesn't even make any mathematical sense. If there are seven shabbat years, each at a seventh year, you will arrive at a 49th year, which is the final shabbat year, because 7 times 7 is 49. THEN, on the 50th year, THE YEAR AFTER THE SHABBAT YEAR, IS THE JUBILEE YEAR. The shabbat years and jubilee years are not the same year. Shabbat years are every 7 years within each 50th year set.
1
2
3
4
5
6
7 (Shabbat year 1)
8
9
10
11
12
13
14 (Shabbat year 2)
15
16
17
18
19
20
21 (Shabbat year 3)
22
23
24
25
26
27
28 (Shabbat year 4)
29
30
31
32
33
34
35 (Shabbat year 5)
36
37
38
39
40
41
42 (Shabbat year 6)
43
44
45
46
47
48
49 (Shabbat year 7)
50 (JUBILEE YEAR)
No because you are no accounting for the directive in Leviticus that between the sabbaths there would be 49 years.
Lev 25:8 And thou shalt number seven sabbaths of years unto thee, seven times seven years; and the space of the seven sabbaths of years shall be unto thee forty and nine years.
You would be creating a space of 50 years between the sabbaths.
You see the Israelite's have a New Year celebration during Yom Teruah called Rosh Hashanah. This is at the beginning of Tishri (Seven Month).
So in year 49 of the sabbath weeks in the 7th month is when that Jubilee gets announce, but the year gets changed to a new year thus the 50th year. So in the 49 year it will start the 50th year (year of Jubilee in the 7th month).
So when the actual next cycle comes it is the 1 year starting over again of the sabbath weeks but it is still the 50th year of the Jubilee that started in the previous year on the 7th month.
Now look at the following:
Lev 25:20 And if ye shall say, What shall we eat the seventh year? behold, we shall not sow, nor gather in our increase:
Lev 25:21 Then I will command my blessing upon you in the sixth year, and it shall bring forth fruit for three years.
Lev 25:22 And ye shall sow the eighth year, and eat yet of old fruit until the ninth year; until her fruits come in ye shall eat of the old store.
Now if the Jubilee was AFTER the 49th year was completed then why are we concerned about what we will eat in the 7th year? You see the Harvest would come AFTER the Jubilee started so we can't harvest in the 7th year nor sow in the fall since again the Jubilee started (50th year in the fall of the 49th or last 7th year of the 7x7 years).
Now if the 50th year came after the 49th then it would mean you were sowing in vain in the 7th year.
Since in the 8th year in fall the Jubilee ends this means we can still sow in the 8th year but our harvest wont be available until the fall of the 9th year.
You see this proves that the Jubilee begins in the 7th month of the 49th year of the cycle and that from counting at the beginning of they years you would have to count 50/1 as the same year.
Quote from: trettep on November 10, 2018, 09:04:59 PM
No because you are no accounting for the directive in Leviticus that between the sabbaths there would be 49 years.
Lev 25:8 And thou shalt number seven sabbaths of years unto thee, seven times seven years; and the space of the seven sabbaths of years shall be unto thee forty and nine years.
You would be creating a space of 50 years between the sabbaths.
You see the Israelite's have a New Year celebration during Yom Teruah called Rosh Hashanah. This is at the beginning of Tishri (Seven Month).
So in year 49 of the sabbath weeks in the 7th month is when that Jubilee gets announce, but the year gets changed to a new year thus the 50th year. So in the 49 year it will start the 50th year (year of Jubilee in the 7th month).
So when the actual next cycle comes it is the 1 year starting over again of the sabbath weeks but it is still the 50th year of the Jubilee that started in the previous year on the 7th month.
Now look at the following:
Lev 25:20 And if ye shall say, What shall we eat the seventh year? behold, we shall not sow, nor gather in our increase:
Lev 25:21 Then I will command my blessing upon you in the sixth year, and it shall bring forth fruit for three years.
Lev 25:22 And ye shall sow the eighth year, and eat yet of old fruit until the ninth year; until her fruits come in ye shall eat of the old store.
Now if the Jubilee was AFTER the 49th year was completed then why are we concerned about what we will eat in the 7th year? You see the Harvest would come AFTER the Jubilee started so we can't harvest in the 7th year nor sow in the fall since again the Jubilee started (50th year in the fall of the 49th or last 7th year of the 7x7 years).
Now if the 50th year came after the 49th then it would mean you were sowing in vain in the 7th year.
Since in the 8th year in fall the Jubilee ends this means we can still sow in the 8th year but our harvest wont be available until the fall of the 9th year.
You see this proves that the Jubilee begins in the 7th month of the 49th year of the cycle and that from counting at the beginning of they years you would have to count 50/1 as the same year.
Do you even understand what you're saying? The reason the Jubilee begins after the shabbat year is because the seventh shabbat year ends in new moon seven day 10 and the jubilee year then begins on that same day, meaning the end of the 49th year is then the beginning of the 50th year. Why is this so difficult to understand? It boggles my mind how people just refuse to understand such simple things, in favor of their own confused logic that doesnt even make sense. Jubilees are not shabbat years, there are seven shabbat years, each at a seventh year, culminating to a 49th year, then on the 50th year is the jubilee year, AFTER the seventh shabbat year ends. This is obvious.
Do either one of you believe you are posting "in the spirit of IMO, I believe.."? It looks more like an argument/debate to me, and it's clearly stated that's not the function of these boards. I'll ask to either pull it into guidelines, argue it out 1:1 by PM or email, or we can just lock the thread.
Perhaps it is either / or (in our understanding) so we can't set dates!? [Although the date 6000 is likely right? :laughing7: ]
I'm very stubborn, and won't let go of a study until it clearly clicks into place.
This is the first I heard of the idea that the first year of the next shemittah is also the jubilee.
Then next/each time I study it, prayerfully, and the study seems to lean in one direction or the other (in this case) and each time ends up leaning in the same direction.. then I will go with that in my understanding, to a certain degree. But I am never sure until I sense that clear fitting of puzzle piece to puzzle piece.
So far, I am leaning toward "49 years between Jubilees". And that Jesus reading the scroll of Isaiah, "proclaiming a year of the release of captives" at the beginning of his ministry/advent, was likely a Jubilee year (beginning). I believe that because of the verse and because God is so orderly.. "Have them sit down in groups of 50 or 100" Jesus said..
And the verse in Hosea "after 2 days He will return.."
And how perfectly the shemittah divisions of years - 7, then 7x7 is so perfect also as to the 7th day (7th thousand years) - a day / thousand years of rest.. no fruit harvested that thousand years.. during the millennium
- again! Pointing to UR!
Because if you make a distinction, between fruit harvested and not harvested, then the likely assumption is - there is harvest following the time of non harvest!
:Chinscratch:
thanks.. i'll have to think about this now.. Oh, and Jubilee - being 5O signifies the Big One!
The "all in all" event!
p.s. here’s a note, if the Jubilee, the 50th year represents, is metaphor for THE Jubilee, the ultimate Jubilee, when creation itself and all in it is set to liberty.. when, as Rev. 21:1-5 says, all things are made new.. then it’s also true (?) that the 7 year cycle of sevens - each individual 7 represents the 6000 years of man, as your/our brother’s opening post, or title says. Then the 7000 is millennium.. Then Jubilee is declared.. Which was always proclaimed and begun on Day Of Atonement, Israel’s day of collective repentance and reconciliation.
Yet we know “the Judgment” is between the millennium and when “all things are made new/made all in all. But is there a link missing? A puzzle piece.. linking day of Atonement with 500.. If the millennium is represented by the 10 days between Trumpets and Day of Atonement, What then does the 5 days between Day Of Atonement and Tabernacles represent?
So you have 7000. A shemittah.
Large scale - 6000 years of man + the millennium
Is it true civil year begins on Day Of Atonement? So a new year/time begins, and it’s a Jubilee.. after the millennium..
And in order to count Jubilees throughout the millennium and the judgment.. it needs to be via the counting of 50, not 49.. But! This is circular reasoning!? Lol.
...so He writes His gospel in the heavens.. and He declares UR in the Holy Days.. ..(?)
besides the numerous verses..
Quote from: jabcat on November 11, 2018, 05:33:53 AM
Do either one of you believe you are posting "in the spirit of IMO, I believe.."? It looks more like an argument/debate to me, and it's clearly stated that's not the function of these boards. I'll ask to either pull it into guidelines, argue it out 1:1 by PM or email, or we can just lock the thread.
I'm not arguing from the perspective of contentiousness with anyone here. I'm just putting forward what the scripture says. But if you don't think we should counter the lies/misunderstanding then let everyone here know. I can prove what I'm saying is the Truth. But if you don't want the Truth to be defended here then just let us know.
Let me show you. Consider the following:
Lev 25:11 A jubile shall that fiftieth year be unto you:
ye shall not sow, neither reap that which groweth of itself in it, nor gather the grapes in it of thy vine undressed.
Notice above it says in the 50th year you cannot SOW or REAP. Ok, let's move on:
ev 25:20 And if ye shall say, What shall we eat the seventh year? behold, we shall not sow, nor gather in our increase:
Lev 25:21 Then I will command my blessing upon you in the sixth year, and it shall bring forth fruit for three years.
Lev 25:22
And ye shall sow the eighth year, and eat yet of old fruit until the ninth year; until her fruits come in ye shall eat of the old store.
Notice above, if the Jubilee was referred to as being AFTER the 49th year then that would make it the 8th year. But we can see that we are not allowed to sow on the Jubilee but we are able to on the 8th year.
I'm trying to show others here how to sort out what looks to many as a contraction of which others users here are fallen into.
Here is the sorting out of the "appearance of contradiction":
49th year (7th year in cycle) - no sowing or reaping. Have to sustain off of the 6th year fruits.
49th year (7th month 10th day - Jubilee starts) - no sowing or repeaping.
1st year ("8th year" in Leviticus - Jubilee until ending at 7th month). - After 7th month - sowing can begin again. But we have not harvest because we couldn't sow the year before (remember sowing is in the fall).
2nd year ("9th year" in Leviticus) - We now still have fruits from the 6th year but will be able to harvest the fall fruits in this year and eat through fall and winter.
So you see the 50th Jubilee is imposed over the 49/1 years together of the Sabbath Cycles.
That is the TRUTH according to the Scriptures. This is why Jews together recognize a NEW YEAR in the 7th Month.
I'll take the time to do this ONE MORE time.
Quote from: trettep on November 11, 2018, 05:23:20 PM
I'm not arguing from the perspective of contentiousness with anyone here. I'm just putting forward what the scripture says. But if you don't think we should counter the lies/misunderstanding then let everyone here know. I can prove what I'm saying is the Truth. But if you don't want the Truth to be defended here then just let us know.
Most people that post here do so within the guidelines, and are still able to get their points across in a conversational, collegial manner.
Quote from: trettep on November 11, 2018, 05:23:20 PM
if you're not interested in the Truth..Let me show you. Consider the following.. Notice above.. Ok, let's move on: Notice above,... So you see .. That is the TRUTH
Once again, your fallacious suggestion that somehow the "Truth" is not wanted here, is unnecessary and missing the point. Deja vu. Except for context, I really don't think I even need to say that "of course we're interested in the truth". I think most people who are cooperative and flexible understand that already. But again, most people who post here understand there are various interpretations, understandings, things we think we know is the truth today but may be corrected tomorrow, etc. That's why "IMO" is required. (Judgment call) this of course excludes the basics of the faith and things clearly stated in the scripture, that aren't really debatable but are in black/red and white.
Interested in truth, yes. Not interested in a general/overall approach of "know-it-all", "let me teach you", "I am the one with the answer", "here's my lecture for today". I know at least most of your basic beliefs of the faith are solid and scriptural. So at this point, I'm honestly less interested in most of your further "truth", as in how you say it.
Your debating partner is no longer active on the boards. Unless something changes, I will have nothing further to say on this, but the guidelines of posting on the TM forums will be enforced. I really don't want to ban you permanently, but if you don't get it this time, I will. I've been told awhile back by another mod that I had been beyond patient up to that point, and here we are again.
If I preach the Truth and get banned it just means God wants me to bring the message elsewhere. As I tell others, you do what your heart feels you need to do. Because that is what I'm doing.
If anyone else has anything further to explore in this thread I'll leave it open. I know you will do well with it from here. Thanks.
The only contradiction, trettep, is if there's an additional year between 49's or not.. I'm afraid, however, for my part (and figuring) has to do with a frame.. and not the Lord's return.. And this thread was useful for that for it seems to me both frames have to fit.. the 49 and the 1000's and that's about all my thoughts on the matter, except for thanks for the two threads trettep we were exchanging in, as I was able to fine tune a couple of things. And to moderator (Jabcat) for his patience.
:gsmile : :Peace2:
Quote from: jabcat on November 12, 2018, 01:15:40 AM
If anyone else has anything further to explore in this thread I'll leave it open. I know you will do well with it from here. Thanks.
I'm not entirely sure that's wise but the direction of this subject is something I find concerning enough to feel the need to weigh in.
In my view, while the tenses used may not rule out us discovering the date of the end in the future and I certainly believe it will become necessary for Jesus to know in the future, a given since He'll certainly know it when it happens, I feel it is disingenuous to suggest that as far as we are concerned it doesn't mean exactly what it says it means. i have several reasons for thinking this.
The first of these reasons is the number of times Jesus actually says across the passages involved such as Matthew 24, 25 and others that we do not know when the end will be. He repeats it so much it's hard not to think He means exactly what He says for all time until it happens when we'll all find out. Dandelion's point is valid here and she has it right. In Johnny English there is a joke you may know but on balance probably don't where there is a fake Archbishop. The Archbishop has a tattoo on his bottom that reads "Jesus is coming, look busy!"
The tattoo is a joke built on cynicism about the end of the world and how humans might respond to it if they knew when it was, ie they can do whatever they till about a week beforehand and then suddenly repent and be saved. We're not meant to know when the end of the world is so as not to affect our attitude through life.
Continuing this point a second reason I have for thinking Jesus means exactly what He says is that He illustrates the point using three parables, I have issues with all three of these parables although it is not pertinent to discus those now when discussing them as the apply in context will suffice.
The first of these parables is the parable of the bridesmaids/virgins. Notice in the parable neither party manages to say awake, both the wise and foolish virgins fall asleep and are somewhat caught unawares by the bridegrooms arrival. But because they prepared ahead of time they are ready to correct their oversight and make the appointment while the foolish bridemaids do not. Neither of these ever know when the bridegroom is coming.
The second parable is the parable of the talents, again it seems pretty clear that the three servants are judged entirely on their management of what they are given while their master is away there is no evidence any of them every know when He will return or expect Him back, if they don't know why do we think we will. The nature of the parables suggests we will remain ignorant as they do.
The third parable is a bit different, it's the parable of the sheep and the goats, it has little to do with when the master will actual return it's all about advocating following the behaviour of the sheep so you will be found, apparently much to your surprise, in His favour when He does. Three parables predicated very much on the ignorance of their characters not on their knowledge very much suggests that we will be just as ignorant when the Lord returns.
But the third reason I am concerned about the idea of our knowledge of when the end will come is my experiences of the Endtimers who tend to be at the forefront of those who advocate it. These people historically tend to be Christian Fundamentalists of the ET persuasion. Their perception of the Endtimes begins with them, in the heart of their self-righteousness, being raptured away to Heaven where they can they pull up the popcorn and watch as God inflicts His torturous wrath on all their wicked enemies who they blame for all the suffering they believe they have injustly but patiently endured for Jesus. These people don't care about the return of Jesus for the sake Jesus, or because they care about the suffering of others. The care only about being rescued from their own suffering which they believe has been inflicted on them by all the abhorrent people who remain and are now being justly punished for it while they get get to enjoy God dispense that justice.
I'm under no such illusions, I'm not self-righteous and am in full awareness and I'm aware that if I live to see the arrival of the beast from the sea I will surely receive its mark. I have no illusions of being any sort of martyr I am not capable of that. But I'm also aware I'm not going to get raputured away from the world beforehand so i can sidestep the choice like these Endtimers do. I'm not under that illusion either.
I reject the notion that we can know the date of the end because no good can come of it, we don't need to know it to live good Christian lives, to serve Jesus, in fact how we serve Jesus can be affected if we do know it. I don't believe we're meant to know the time of the end, the people who tend to advocate that we should and do tend to be the worst type of Christians who care about the end only do so because of their desire to escape the world and not because of any love of God in them. That's my view on this matter, we do not, cannot, know the end and we are not meant to.
:iagree: :iagree: tho I do want to understand all of God's Word.. it doesn't scare me.. the 'end' of the story, culmination.. conclusion.. says a lot about the overall... story. And, I want to be able to tell my grand kids any "signs" Jesus spoke of. As I do believe in literal fulfillment.. as long as history is literal that is. It's likely the book of rev. was written after 70 a.d. but in 70 a.d. the Christians heard and heeded what the Lord has said and I've read a few times that none perished in 70 a.d. And since I believe prophecy telescopes with shorter range to longer range, I think those things He said are still beneficial (I wanted to write "useful".. but that was just crazy!)
But even more than that - my grand kids! Is the pattern / frame that I think evidences u.r., which involves some math but not end time dates..
So, CST, :iagree: it had to happen sooner or later, lol.. :gsmile:
Quote from: CST on November 13, 2018, 01:09:30 PM
Quote from: jabcat on November 12, 2018, 01:15:40 AM
If anyone else has anything further to explore in this thread I'll leave it open. I know you will do well with it from here. Thanks.
I'm not entirely sure that's wise
I wanted to be discrete, but I guess it makes sense to say that cgaviria and trettep will no longer be active in the thread. That's why I said "anyone else"... Blessings all.
Quote from: marie glen on November 13, 2018, 07:52:12 PM
As I do believe in literal fulfillment.. as long as history is literal that is.
As but that's the catch, is it? I see this one of two ways.
First, there is a physical, material world that exists and in which we live. This world is made by God and has a beginning, which is described to some degree in Genesis 1, it will also have an end. My belief is that that 'end' is simply a precuser to that world becoming a new evil free physical world of a slightly different material much less prone to decay.
Second, there is, to some degree or another world, a spiritual world, sometimes I believe this world actually exists and sometimes I think it entirely an allegory to be used to teach and warn us. However, assuming the spiritual world to actually exist I don't believe this world to have a beginning in the same sense as the material world does because the spiritual world, while somehow underlying and connected to the physical world, is ultimately an extension of the nature and character of God and is is some way as eternal and transcendent as He is. Certainly it's relationship with the physical begins with the creation of the physical but it has its beginning in God and is therefore eternal.
To me, no description of the spiritual world can be taken entirely literally because it's like describing things of God that are beyond our comprehension and understanding, our language is not capable of describing the events of the spiritual world but only tries to describe it as best it can. We can tell many descriptions of the spiritual world are not literal because they contradict things we know about the physical world.
This makes understanding the Revelation and other descriptions of the end difficult, we have to determine which things describe the physical world and may well be literal and which describe the spiritual world and won't be. So if the Revelation says 1/3 of the population will die I take that literally. If it says that a massive seven-headed, ten-horned mutant thing will rise up from the sea I suspect we won't see that... it will be a bit obvious never mind the implausibility.
CST,
I do like your understanding of the physical/spiritual worlds, it makes sense to me the way you put it.
As far as the Revelation and the Second Coming (opening post), I would suggest an article written by Gary Amirault for the Dew Magazine:
https://www.tentmaker.org/Dew/Dew6/D6-TheComingOfChristIn70AD.html
He mentions in the article, the writings of Josephus. These also can all be found on the Tentmaker web site. "The Wars" have a lot of things that jump out at you correlating to Revelations.
Just a different point of view.
Pat
p.s. GodIsLove, we want you back! (sorry, the P.M. isn't working for me)
Quote from: CST on November 14, 2018, 04:36:00 PM
Quote from: marie glen on November 13, 2018, 07:52:12 PM
As I do believe in literal fulfillment.. as long as history is literal that is.
So if the Revelation says 1/3 of the population will die I take that literally. If it says that a massive seven-headed, ten-horned mutant thing will rise up from the sea I suspect we won't see that... it will be a bit obvious never mind the implausibility.
:thumbsup: Now there we have it.. logic. :cloud9: ..One may feel they are being led of the Spirit to read all cross references (there aren't many) to the seven headed mutant.. And possibly find? :dontknow: If most don't care.. does that mean all should be disinterested? ( :laughing7: I'm just venting a little.. over the years, how many times I've heard how thinking about/studying Bible prophecy along with the rest of the Bible, means there's something wrong with you or your faith. :doh: )
Like the rest of the Bible, I think Revelation is fascinating. Especially as the conclusion.. Sometimes I think ppl don't understand the book because they don't see what's around us in today's world, that's just an opinion.. Certainly has nothing to do with anyone's faith or anything like that. And too it's easy to assume one's interest in prophecy is for the sensational, etc. Especially since we see so much of that going on, especially on the world wide web!
And this forum isn't a forum for bible prophecy, so usually I only talk about how I believe the
ages after this one are in the Book of Revelation and strongly imply \ support UR/CU. ....and are outlined via the Autumn Holy Days? (imo).Quote from: Patinak on November 14, 2018, 06:32:03 PM
CST,
I do like your understanding of the physical/spiritual worlds, it makes sense to me the way you put it.
As far as the Revelation and the Second Coming (opening post), I would suggest an article written by Gary Amirault for the Dew Magazine:
https://www.tentmaker.org/Dew/Dew6/D6-TheComingOfChristIn70AD.html
He mentions in the article, the writings of Josephus. These also can all be found on the Tentmaker web site. "The Wars" have a lot of things that jump out at you correlating to Revelations.
Just a different point of view.
Pat
p.s. GodIsLove, we want you back! (sorry, the P.M. isn't working for me)
Amen! :gimmefive:
Quote from: Patinak on November 14, 2018, 06:32:03 PM
CST,
I do like your understanding of the physical/spiritual worlds, it makes sense to me the way you put it.
As far as the Revelation and the Second Coming (opening post), I would suggest an article written by Gary Amirault for the Dew Magazine:
https://www.tentmaker.org/Dew/Dew6/D6-TheComingOfChristIn70AD.html
He mentions in the article, the writings of Josephus. These also can all be found on the Tentmaker web site. "The Wars" have a lot of things that jump out at you correlating to Revelations.
Just a different point of view.
Pat
p.s. GodIsLove, we want you back! (sorry, the P.M. isn't working for me)
:laugh:
I'm glad it makes sense to you, I'm not even sure it makes sense to me. I'm basically convinced of two things:
1. Both forms of reality are extensions of God because He is responsible for them, they have their foundation in Him and couldn't be otherwise.
2. The spiritual world is a special type of extension of God that isn't made like the material world is. Otherwise there would have to be two types of spiritual world and thus two 'types' of spiritual, 'God-like' and 'not God-like', and they would contradict each other.
Thanks for the links Patinak, I am also missing GiL. Hope she's reading so she can see so.
Quote from: marie glen on November 14, 2018, 07:27:24 PM
Quote from: CST on November 14, 2018, 04:36:00 PM
Quote from: marie glen on November 13, 2018, 07:52:12 PM
As I do believe in literal fulfillment.. as long as history is literal that is.
So if the Revelation says 1/3 of the population will die I take that literally. If it says that a massive seven-headed, ten-horned mutant thing will rise up from the sea I suspect we won't see that... it will be a bit obvious never mind the implausibility.
:thumbsup: Now there we have it.. logic. :cloud9: ..One may feel they are being led of the Spirit to read all cross references (there aren't many) to the seven headed mutant.. And possibly find? :dontknow: If most don't care.. does that mean all should be disinterested? ( :laughing7: I'm just venting a little.. over the years, how many times I've heard how thinking about/studying Bible prophecy along with the rest of the Bible, means there's something wrong with you or your faith. :doh: )
Like the rest of the Bible, I think Revelation is fascinating. Especially as the conclusion.. Sometimes I think ppl don't understand the book because they don't see what's around us in today's world, that's just an opinion.. Certainly has nothing to do with anyone's faith or anything like that. And too it's easy to assume one's interest in prophecy is for the sensational, etc. Especially since we see so much of that going on, especially on the world wide web!
And this forum isn't a forum for bible prophecy, so usually I only talk about how I believe the ages after this one are in the Book of Revelation and strongly imply \ support UR/CU. ....and are outlined via the Autumn Holy Days? (imo).
Quote from: Patinak on November 14, 2018, 06:32:03 PM
CST,
I do like your understanding of the physical/spiritual worlds, it makes sense to me the way you put it.
As far as the Revelation and the Second Coming (opening post), I would suggest an article written by Gary Amirault for the Dew Magazine:
https://www.tentmaker.org/Dew/Dew6/D6-TheComingOfChristIn70AD.html
He mentions in the article, the writings of Josephus. These also can all be found on the Tentmaker web site. "The Wars" have a lot of things that jump out at you correlating to Revelations.
Just a different point of view.
Pat
p.s. GodIsLove, we want you back! (sorry, the P.M. isn't working for me)
Amen! :gimmefive:
There may be more than you think, the Shema and the connected instructions are usurped by receiving the mark of the beast, that's one I know right there. There must be others. But the beast is a strange idea. The Revelation suggests that the Beast from the sea will be around for only a brief period at the end of the world and most of those who survive will serve it. Yet, an awful lot of people seem to serve it and its master the Devil before hand as well the Revelation ande the rest of the Bible also makes this quite clear. But sin and evil are obiquitous and it's very easy to see the beast in whatever you fancy if only you choose to look.
So when you say people don't see what's going on in the world I take it with a major grain of caution. They tend cite the Bible which says in the last days people will become lovers of themselves but that's easy to see if you look for it. The Bible was written in a generation that murdered Jesus to protect their own interests, signs of the end are always there if you want to find them Jesus made this very clear as well. Jesus don't us not to worry about tomorrow, today has worries enough. That should be enough to stop us bothering too much about when the end of the world is going to be. Of course, we are warned because eventually today will become tomorrow and we need to be ready to recognize it when it does. Or else we'll be stuck with yesterday's worries and not notice.
I totally agree with ignoring all sensationalist theories and thinking and date setting.. all that. There's a whole lot we don't know. (Understatement, lol.)
But what we do know, there's no reason to hide it under a basket or table..
..and just because we understand something, doesn't mean we fear it.
The only thing Revelation and prophecy is, is the culmination and results.. It may very well be trends we see in the world around us.. and we may be able to see these trends like gathering waves.. and waves eventually crest.. I can plainly see the world rejects the knowledge of God.. and their theory of life takes ALOT of faith.. So very many holes and disconnections in it.. a fantastical myth to rival all fantastical myths.. (but likely deeply rooted in the past). And the world clings to it. Today's strong delusion, from today's false prophet/teacher/teaching - which does prophecy. Oh yes. And thus has western civilization once called Christendom fallen away from the faith - these as we know are all bible phrases. Jude 14 in the Contemporary English Version says "ppl will make fun of God". And yes perhaps some throughout the ages have.. but I certainly can see that it is "trending".. like a snowball rolling downhill.. I believe everything the Bible says will come to pass. But we have to know how to read the Bible. Psalm 110? Says God will break heads.. that may sound shocking to sensitive sensibilities.. but it's likely a figure of speech like we have even today. Not literal.. a righteous anger that says "when I git there I'm breakin' some heads!"
And you know what, that righteous anger of God's is a good thing. Some ppl think it's good to beat, rape, oppress, torture others? ThAt's who should be afraid! A God who doesn't care? Is a milktoast 'god' fashoined after humans. In society these days were taught our empathy should be with the lawbreaker.. even some despots are thought to be revolutionary heroes.
We can't always explain to others any of the Christian life.. the dying to self.. the being risen with Jesus.. and all that it means.. the same with all of God's Word. Some ppl can't see UR, but we plant the seeds anyway.
As for the world and nations, if they have rejected the knowledge of God, it seems likely they will build for theirselves a 'god' a rulership - made up of humans - to have the seat of God, even telling their selves they aRe 'god'/highest power. And will likely in essence endow that rulership (governing body) with so to speak, godlike powers. (Beasts in prophecy are rulers, kingdoms, governing, with the last one having Roman/Greek foundations - iron/bronze, and it was, then wasn't, then it was again.. in yesteryears world/ John's world, it was, very obviously, the Roman Empire).
What could possibly go wrong? Jesus said to watch and pray.. And that is assumed to be a mere concern for one's own skin? It's actually kind of amazing any believer should think that..
"Think on those things that are above" the world is passing away.. And the Kingdom is coming.. When we don't know, but we do surely await and look forward to that kingdom.
"All the ends of Earth will remember and turn to the LORD, and all families of the nations will worship.." Ps. 22:27 (When? Is this prophecy fulfilled?)
:Peace2:
Surprised no one mentioned this yet:
Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
Has - "this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world" - happened yet? Opinions?
Php 1:17 But the other of love, knowing that I am set for the defence of the gospel.
Php 1:18 What then? notwithstanding, every way, whether in pretence, or in truth, Christ is preached; and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice.
And the Gospel spoken of here, do you think it is the hell based, prosperity/legalistic Christianity that counts? Or the one on God's unfailing love, etc?
There's discussion about what "the world" refers to. Preterists insist it means the Roman civilization of the time. Futurists argue it means the whole inhabited world, that the context of the usage gives the meaning in each instance.
Oikoumene
Oikos Oikouros
The NAS New Testament Greek Lexicon
oikoumene
Definition
the inhabited earth
the portion of the earth inhabited by the Greeks, in distinction from the lands of the barbarians
the Roman empire, all the subjects of the empire
the whole inhabited earth, the world
the inhabitants of the earth, men
the universe, the world
One of the very main explanations of the Gospel IMO;
I Cor. 15 Now I make known to you, brothers, the gospel which I proclaimed to you.. For I passed on to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures, and that he was buried, and that he was raised up on the third day according to the scriptures..
Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
Probably 20-30 years after Jesus's statement, Paul was making the following statements:
[Col 1:5-6 KJV] 5 For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel; 6 Which is come unto you, as [it is] in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as [it doth] also in you, since the day ye heard [of it], and knew the grace of God in truth:
[Col 1:5-6, 23 KJV] 5 For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel; 6 Which is come unto you, as [it is] in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as [it doth] also in you, since the day ye heard [of it], and knew the grace of God in truth: ... 23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and [be] not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, [and] which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
[Rom 10:16-18 KJV] 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17 So then faith [cometh] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. 18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.
Are Jesus and Paul talking about the same thing? I think so. I think Paul was writing about the fulfillment of Jesus's prophecy.
Quote from: marie glen on November 15, 2018, 05:22:55 PM
I totally agree with ignoring all sensationalist theories and thinking and date setting.. all that. There's a whole lot we don't know. (Understatement, lol.)
But what we do know, there's no reason to hide it under a basket or table..
..and just because we understand something, doesn't mean we fear it.
The only thing Revelation and prophecy is, is the culmination and results.. It may very well be trends we see in the world around us.. and we may be able to see these trends like gathering waves.. and waves eventually crest.. I can plainly see the world rejects the knowledge of God.. and their theory of life takes ALOT of faith.. So very many holes and disconnections in it.. a fantastical myth to rival all fantastical myths.. (but likely deeply rooted in the past). And the world clings to it. Today's strong delusion, from today's false prophet/teacher/teaching - which does prophecy. Oh yes. And thus has western civilization once called Christendom fallen away from the faith - these as we know are all bible phrases. Jude 14 in the Contemporary English Version says "ppl will make fun of God". And yes perhaps some throughout the ages have.. but I certainly can see that it is "trending".. like a snowball rolling downhill.. I believe everything the Bible says will come to pass. But we have to know how to read the Bible. Psalm 110? Says God will break heads.. that may sound shocking to sensitive sensibilities.. but it's likely a figure of speech like we have even today. Not literal.. a righteous anger that says "when I git there I'm breakin' some heads!"
And you know what, that righteous anger of God's is a good thing. Some ppl think it's good to beat, rape, oppress, torture others? ThAt's who should be afraid! A God who doesn't care? Is a milktoast 'god' fashoined after humans. In society these days were taught our empathy should be with the lawbreaker.. even some despots are thought to be revolutionary heroes.
We can't always explain to others any of the Christian life.. the dying to self.. the being risen with Jesus.. and all that it means.. the same with all of God's Word. Some ppl can't see UR, but we plant the seeds anyway.
As for the world and nations, if they have rejected the knowledge of God, it seems likely they will build for theirselves a 'god' a rulership - made up of humans - to have the seat of God, even telling their selves they aRe 'god'/highest power. And will likely in essence endow that rulership (governing body) with so to speak, godlike powers. (Beasts in prophecy are rulers, kingdoms, governing, with the last one having Roman/Greek foundations - iron/bronze, and it was, then wasn't, then it was again.. in yesteryears world/ John's world, it was, very obviously, the Roman Empire).
What could possibly go wrong? Jesus said to watch and pray.. And that is assumed to be a mere concern for one's own skin? It's actually kind of amazing any believer should think that..
"Think on those things that are above" the world is passing away.. And the Kingdom is coming.. When we don't know, but we do surely await and look forward to that kingdom.
"All the ends of Earth will remember and turn to the LORD, and all families of the nations will worship.." Ps. 22:27 (When? Is this prophecy fulfilled?)
:Peace2:
How do we know we know anything, I doubt there's one thing we all agree on about any of this?
People have always rejected and mocked God, even in 2 Esdras God expresses His anger about this.
We're taught our empathy should be with the lawbreaker, really? We're a judgemental society that thrives on condemning in order to make us feel better than everyone else and have power over them. Jesus tells us to love our enemies and pray for those who persecute us. That's having empathy with the lawbreaker and that's how mercy works. But no, in general we don't do that. If some says even the slightest thing we object to we harass them and persecute them and drive them away. That about as much empathy with the lawbreaker we actually have.
But what you're taking about at the end there is idolatry and, yes, we do that and have always done that and it's also done so the people who sell the idols can use them to gain power over people and their lives. It's nothing new and it will continue until God ends idolatry like you mention He will by quoting the Psalms.
Quote from: Patinak on November 16, 2018, 08:58:45 AM
Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
Probably 20-30 years after Jesus's statement, Paul was making the following statements:
[Col 1:5-6 KJV] 5 For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel; 6 Which is come unto you, as [it is] in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as [it doth] also in you, since the day ye heard [of it], and knew the grace of God in truth:
[Col 1:5-6, 23 KJV] 5 For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel; 6 Which is come unto you, as [it is] in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as [it doth] also in you, since the day ye heard [of it], and knew the grace of God in truth: ... 23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and [be] not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, [and] which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
[Rom 10:16-18 KJV] 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17 So then faith [cometh] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. 18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.
Are Jesus and Paul talking about the same thing? I think so. I think Paul was writing about the fulfillment of Jesus's prophecy.
Thanks Pat, for sharing this and sharing Gary's article on the topic. I agree with both. It's been a recent belief of mine that has been building for a while, and it finally has all come together, but it is hard to lay it all out in one concise post, and people are quick to call the idea crazy without exploring it for themselves. I compare it to UR, once you hear it the knee jerk reaction is to reject it, but it makes so many pieces come together, if you continue to look into it prayerfully.
I had to take a break for a while. I will be back here and there I think, but the break helped to clear my thoughts, pray, and also to focus on my immediate life. The internet is good but can suck us away from living and loving.
Thanks Pat and CST and for wanting me back, it means a lot to me. Sometimes we don't realize our connections are meaningful until they are severed and I think that was an important learning lesson for me as well.
Colossians 1
5the faith and love that spring from the hope stored up for you in heaven and about which you have already heard in the true message of the gospel 6that has come to you. In the same way, the gospel is bearing fruit and growing throughout the whole world—just as it has been doing among you since the day you heard it and truly understood God's grace
NIV here has it growing as a verb, unlike the KJV which puts it in past tense.
TPT 23if indeed you continue to advance in faith, assured of a firm foundation to grow upon. Never be shaken from the hope of the gospel you have believed in. And this is the glorious news I preach all over the world.
Here it is present tense in preach. Again, not past tense like the KJV. Do you think Paul preached to everyone who ever lived at that time? What about those who haven't heard today?
Romans 10
18But I ask: Did they not hear? Of course they did:
"Their voice has gone out into all the earth,
their words to the ends of the world."
He is quoting Psalm 19:4 here. When the Psalm was written, do you think it could have been fulfilled? Same here. I highly doubt it was fulfilled here, considering some in the world still have not heard. Unless our Lord is ignorant and ignored a bunch of the lost when prophesying that.
Quote from: jabcat on November 16, 2018, 07:44:51 AM
There's discussion about what "the world" refers to. Preterists insist it means the Roman civilization of the time. Futurists argue it means the whole inhabited world, that the context of the usage gives the meaning in each instance.
Oikoumene
Oikos Oikouros
The NAS New Testament Greek Lexicon
oikoumene
Definition
the inhabited earth
the portion of the earth inhabited by the Greeks, in distinction from the lands of the barbarians
the Roman empire, all the subjects of the empire
the whole inhabited earth, the world
the inhabitants of the earth, men
the universe, the world
One of the very main explanations of the Gospel IMO;
I Cor. 15 Now I make known to you, brothers, the gospel which I proclaimed to you.. For I passed on to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures, and that he was buried, and that he was raised up on the third day according to the scriptures..
Acts 17
24"The God who made the
world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by human hands.
So God just made "a portion of the earth inhabited by Greeks?" What about the rest of it? I highly doubt it would be meant to be limited to a specific part of the earth. It would basically then be 2 Israels. #1 in OT, #2 in NT.
Music lover, that same Greek word for "world" is used here:
Luke 2:1
1 Now in those days a decree went out from Caesar Augustus, that a census be taken of all the inhabited earth.
Like Jabcat says, context helps to determine what the word means.
It is similar to aionios, in that it can mean different things depending on the context.
Yes, context.
Also, translation. For example:
[Mat 12:32 KJV] 32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the [world] to come.
Checking the Greek on this verse, you will find that "world" is translated from the same Greek word used for "age" (aiōn). Kind of makes a difference on how we look at it.
I am not going to be debating Preterism here, it's just that the forum is having so much written about end time dates, and speculation about the "end of the world" and arguments about this jubilee or that festival, I just thought I'd throw out that there are some (of us) that look at it from a different perspective. I know that many people think it is crazy, but one thing I like about this forum is that people here do their own studying, and I guarantee that no two of us will come to the same conclusions about everything. Our common denominator is that we agree we have a loving God "who will have all men be saved, and come to the knowledge of the truth." ...and that's good enough for me!
Quote from: MusicLover123 on November 16, 2018, 07:07:04 AM
Surprised no one mentioned this yet:
Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
Has - "this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world" - happened yet? Opinions?
Php 1:17 But the other of love, knowing that I am set for the defence of the gospel.
Php 1:18 What then? notwithstanding, every way, whether in pretence, or in truth, Christ is preached; and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice.
And the Gospel spoken of here, do you think it is the hell based, prosperity/legalistic Christianity that counts? Or the one on God's unfailing love, etc?
...the gospel of the kingdom :Chinscratch: I never thought about whether the pure -
nothing but the truth - gospel.. or all the other versions too.. (And the first believers were always in expectation, were watching for and kept as one of the things foremost in, and occupying their thoughts was the coming of the Kingdom.)
Also, there's reference to judgment not going forth against a nation, I can't remember the details right now, but judgment was not coming forth yet because of the nation's "iniquity being not yet full" (and in Revelation 19 it sounds like two harvests - at the end of the age / at Jesus' return, the firstfruits/wheat and the grapes of wrath "outside the city"/Jerusalem, I assume nations assembling there to annihilate (finally, in their dreams, Israel,Rev.12:17;16:14-16) and of these it says "who's fruit is mature"... (Rev ch.19)
Quote from: jabcat on November 16, 2018, 07:44:51 AM
One of the very main explanations of the Gospel IMO;
I Cor. 15 Now I make known to you, brothers, the gospel which I proclaimed to you.. For I passed on to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures, and that he was buried, and that he was raised up on the third day according to the scriptures..
:iagree: :iagree:
Quote from: GodIsLove on November 16, 2018, 05:12:59 PM
Music lover, that same Greek word for "world" is used here:
Luke 2:1
1 Now in those days a decree went out from Caesar Augustus, that a census be taken of all the inhabited earth.
Like Jabcat says, context helps to determine what the word means.
It is similar to aionios, in that it can mean different things depending on the context.
:thumbsup:
:Chinscratch: In Paul's day it went out to all the inhabited world, nations, of the day.. and the end of that age came in 70 a.d. And I've read all the christians left the city beforehand and none perished.. I wonder if the same was true for gnostic believers? I never wondered about that.. or if there were some who believed the prophecies/end had happened already..
Quote from: Patinak on November 16, 2018, 06:49:31 PM
Yes, context.
Also, translation. For example:
[Mat 12:32 KJV] 32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the [world] to come.
Checking the Greek on this verse, you will find that "world" is translated from the same Greek word used for "age" (aiōn). Kind of makes a difference on how we look at it.
I am not going to be debating Preterism here, it's just that the forum is having so much written about end time dates, and speculation about the "end of the world" and arguments about this jubilee or that festival, I just thought I'd throw out that there are some (of us) that look at it from a different perspective. I know that many people think it is crazy, but one thing I like about this forum is that people here do their own studying, and I guarantee that no two of us will come to the same conclusions about everything. Our common denominator is that we agree we have a loving God "who will have all men be saved, and come to the knowledge of the truth." ...and that's good enough for me!
Amen to both of those points..
(
I think I'm the one who brought up the festivals, which I probably do a lot, and not about dates or even the end, but how i believe they are the pattern of Jesus' two advents, and once understood, I believe is strong (additional) support/proof? of UR.
Quote from: MusicLover123 on November 16, 2018, 04:13:34 PM
Colossians 1
5the faith and love that spring from the hope stored up for you in heaven and about which you have already heard in the true message of the gospel 6that has come to you. In the same way, the gospel is bearing fruit and growing throughout the whole world—just as it has been doing among you since the day you heard it and truly understood God's grace
NIV here has it growing as a verb, unlike the KJV which puts it in past tense.
TPT 23if indeed you continue to advance in faith, assured of a firm foundation to grow upon. Never be shaken from the hope of the gospel you have believed in. And this is the glorious news I preach all over the world.
Here it is present tense in preach. Again, not past tense like the KJV. Do you think Paul preached to everyone who ever lived at that time? What about those who haven't heard today?
Romans 10
18But I ask: Did they not hear? Of course they did:
"Their voice has gone out into all the earth,
their words to the ends of the world."
He is quoting Psalm 19:4 here. When the Psalm was written, do you think it could have been fulfilled? Same here. I highly doubt it was fulfilled here, considering some in the world still have not heard. Unless our Lord is ignorant and ignored a bunch of the lost when prophesying that.
Sometimes I think circular reasoning is exactly what's needed to see the true form of something.. Since it's a prophecy by Jesus, and He cannot err, it must mean if He was referring to the end of the age (70a.d.) He meant the inhabited then 'civilized' world - the gospel of Jesus' death and resurrection on one's behalf - but if He meant the end of these ages of man and of man's rule, I wonder just how many nations have had the gospel presented to them - NOT in order to set a date :laughing7:
So it sounds like, to me, Paul meant the civilized world of his day.. and he said the gospel had been preached to every creature.. but Paul isn't infallible. Could have been generalizing..? Or figured by then.. surely? It does seem like the news spread somewhat like a wildfire, and most of society seemed aware of the believers, thought of, however, as a cult(?)
But praise the Lord we know even all those who never heard anything about Jesus shall be resurrected.. and just as Jesus said, He will draw all to Himself, Jn.12:32.
:girlheart: :cloud9:
Quote from: marie glen on November 16, 2018, 07:39:47 PM
But praise the Lord we know even all those who never heard anything about Jesus shall be resurrected.. and just as Jesus said, He will draw all to Himself, Jn.12:32.
:girlheart: :cloud9:
Amen, Glenda!
I kind of hate to bring this thread up again.. but i just had to add this, just for general information to file away if ever needed. Daniel 12:11,12 - Daniel said "from the time they take away, stop or remove the perpetual sacrifice" - most believe this indicates a 3rd temple and sacrifices.. and when the sacrifices are stopped [and yes, i know this prophecy was fulfilled before also] - but I think yes, stopping literal sacrifices, maybe so, put perhaps sooner if it is the removal or taking away of the 'Wailing Wall' where perpetual prayers are offered, because Jesus said of the buildings (complex?) not one stone would remain upon another -
But whatever it is, "from the time it's taken away, until the abomination that desolates is set up - I figure 666 & Amplified Bible says it in the margin - "will be 1,290 days, and happy is the one who waits and comes to 45 days later" (or that is to 1,335 days; most folks believe these are years, but that's a long time for one to wait and come to).
So.. That's (imo) the counting. When whatever it is, is taken away.. one can count the days then.. to the setting up of 666 (touted as a leap in consciousness/evolution?) and one could count days to the return of Jesus.
Imo.. of course.
:Peace2: :girlheart:
Alright, so on the Gospel preached to the world, Ray had a bit of a different description of it. Here is a partial "summary of what he said:
"The good news Gospel: God is reproducing himself with Sons and Daughters that have to endure to the end in this fleshly life. God is calling out some now, and out of the called He is selecting a relative few (called and chosen) to reign in His Kingdom. The chosen are being judged now before the great World Judgement occurs where the rest of humanity will be judged and saved..."
If it is this specific description of The Gospel that is to be preached, then most have not heard this.
If it is the "believe in Christ death, burial and Resurrection" then most have heard.
:thumbsup: ...I think of it like fruit. And I know the bible talks about "God waiting for the harvest of the Earth" and Revelation talks of two in Rev.19.. plus all the spiritual simile, etc. concerning harvest(s).. But not only the good harvest, the wheat.. those who meet Him at His coming - all believers, those alive and those passed on/having died.
But the one of Rev, that the world's wrongdoings also have to come to fruit.
Also "the end" may start - to God's reckoning, long before we reckon, or notice. (As a matter of fact we could think of 'the end' - which precedes Jesus' return, as beginning with the disobedience in Eden.)
I'm not sure how to say this..
It's my opinion, if we understand Bible prophecy, we will be so much better at "watching". For instance the seals in chapter six are encoded. You know how? The whole seal is described. From their beginning, to what they are at their full progression or maturity (ride/gallop) at 'the end'.
Which obscured it (the vision) because things are told here so early on, basically, at the beginning of the vision.
Now there's method to my madness here. As I want to point something out. There's things which have to occur before His return. And I begin to think God's Word is even more literal than we (or I) have thought. [Literal blood of Christ on the Mercy Seat is way more literal than I ever would have expected, for instance. (Other thread..) And should that be only human imagination, I was very surprised at just how literally the Spring feasts were fulfilled by His 1st advent.
Keeping in mind how the seals are described, try reading them again. Whatever seal six is was, I believe it is also 7:1. This new fire/wind unleashed, is paused. I believe we are still in that pause. That 'the 'end' has not actually begun to escalate until this pause is broken. Tho I believe limited, initially. It's one of the things which seems very plain and obvious to me. Of course, I could be way off base. But of course I don't think so. :laughing7:
Remember how Mt.24 says "Immediately after the tribulation (troubles) of those days.. they shall see.. the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven, and He will send His angels out to gather His elect from the four corners (directions) of the world.."
Of course you'll never believe it unless you see it for yourself (at least that's the way I am).
:Peace2:
Small footnote
The star that appeared at the birth of Christ showed up again in august
There are no coincidences
Blessings
Quote from: onlytruth on November 19, 2018, 05:55:15 AM
Small footnote
The star that appeared at the birth of Christ showed up again in august
There are no coincidences
Blessings
:thumbsup: So good of the Father to send signs in the heavens, and on Earth.. Just in case He needs to get our attention.. But I get the sense we are to be always expecting.. always waiting.. also it keeps our mind on the kingdom/heavenly things.. (Of course humans are very prone to extremes.. and everything has at least two opposing extremes.. so those who obsess over His return and set dates, etc. and excluding excitement over the rest of His Word.. which makes others go to the other extreme of leaning toward wanting to dismiss eschatology altogether(?) lol, to me it doesn’t matter
when He comes, just that He is coming and will “subdue ALL things to Himself”! Exactly as 1Cor.15:22-28 says. :banana: :dsunny:
...but so many signs in the heavens and on Earth.. yet we can’t forget Noah spent a hundred years building the ark.. though of course they lived a lot longer in those days..
Quote from: GodIsLove on November 16, 2018, 02:22:30 PM
Quote from: Patinak on November 16, 2018, 08:58:45 AM
Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
Probably 20-30 years after Jesus's statement, Paul was making the following statements:
[Col 1:5-6 KJV] 5 For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel; 6 Which is come unto you, as [it is] in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as [it doth] also in you, since the day ye heard [of it], and knew the grace of God in truth:
[Col 1:5-6, 23 KJV] 5 For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel; 6 Which is come unto you, as [it is] in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as [it doth] also in you, since the day ye heard [of it], and knew the grace of God in truth: ... 23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and [be] not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, [and] which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
[Rom 10:16-18 KJV] 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17 So then faith [cometh] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. 18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.
Are Jesus and Paul talking about the same thing? I think so. I think Paul was writing about the fulfillment of Jesus's prophecy.
Thanks Pat, for sharing this and sharing Gary's article on the topic. I agree with both. It's been a recent belief of mine that has been building for a while, and it finally has all come together, but it is hard to lay it all out in one concise post, and people are quick to call the idea crazy without exploring it for themselves. I compare it to UR, once you hear it the knee jerk reaction is to reject it, but it makes so many pieces come together, if you continue to look into it prayerfully.
I had to take a break for a while. I will be back here and there I think, but the break helped to clear my thoughts, pray, and also to focus on my immediate life. The internet is good but can suck us away from living and loving.
Thanks Pat and CST and for wanting me back, it means a lot to me. Sometimes we don't realize our connections are meaningful until they are severed and I think that was an important learning lesson for me as well.
Welcome back, GIL. It was said you felt driven away by us.
Quote from: Patinak on November 16, 2018, 06:49:31 PM
Yes, context.
Also, translation. For example:
[Mat 12:32 KJV] 32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the [world] to come.
Checking the Greek on this verse, you will find that "world" is translated from the same Greek word used for "age" (aiōn). Kind of makes a difference on how we look at it.
I am not going to be debating Preterism here, it's just that the forum is having so much written about end time dates, and speculation about the "end of the world" and arguments about this jubilee or that festival, I just thought I'd throw out that there are some (of us) that look at it from a different perspective. I know that many people think it is crazy, but one thing I like about this forum is that people here do their own studying, and I guarantee that no two of us will come to the same conclusions about everything. Our common denominator is that we agree we have a loving God "who will have all men be saved, and come to the knowledge of the truth." ...and that's good enough for me!
Yeah, generally the continued presence of evil in the world when the Biblical prophecies in question tend to describe it's end quite clearly argue against Preterism.
The biggest argument against Preterism is that on the evidence no one seems to have believed it until the C16th. If the early church who Jesus spoke to tended not to believe it even though they are supposed to have lived through it (and didn't notice), why should we?
Quote from: marie glen on November 16, 2018, 07:39:47 PM
Quote from: MusicLover123 on November 16, 2018, 04:13:34 PM
Colossians 1
5the faith and love that spring from the hope stored up for you in heaven and about which you have already heard in the true message of the gospel 6that has come to you. In the same way, the gospel is bearing fruit and growing throughout the whole world—just as it has been doing among you since the day you heard it and truly understood God's grace
NIV here has it growing as a verb, unlike the KJV which puts it in past tense.
TPT 23if indeed you continue to advance in faith, assured of a firm foundation to grow upon. Never be shaken from the hope of the gospel you have believed in. And this is the glorious news I preach all over the world.
Here it is present tense in preach. Again, not past tense like the KJV. Do you think Paul preached to everyone who ever lived at that time? What about those who haven't heard today?
Romans 10
18But I ask: Did they not hear? Of course they did:
"Their voice has gone out into all the earth,
their words to the ends of the world."
He is quoting Psalm 19:4 here. When the Psalm was written, do you think it could have been fulfilled? Same here. I highly doubt it was fulfilled here, considering some in the world still have not heard. Unless our Lord is ignorant and ignored a bunch of the lost when prophesying that.
Sometimes I think circular reasoning is exactly what's needed to see the true form of something.. Since it's a prophecy by Jesus, and He cannot err, it must mean if He was referring to the end of the age (70a.d.) He meant the inhabited then 'civilized' world - the gospel of Jesus' death and resurrection on one's behalf - but if He meant the end of these ages of man and of man's rule, I wonder just how many nations have had the gospel presented to them - NOT in order to set a date :laughing7:
So it sounds like, to me, Paul meant the civilized world of his day.. and he said the gospel had been preached to every creature.. but Paul isn't infallible. Could have been generalizing..? Or figured by then.. surely? It does seem like the news spread somewhat like a wildfire, and most of society seemed aware of the believers, thought of, however, as a cult(?)
But praise the Lord we know even all those who never heard anything about Jesus shall be resurrected.. and just as Jesus said, He will draw all to Himself, Jn.12:32.
:girlheart: :cloud9:
Do you even know what circular reasoning is? It's generally not considered useful for anything because it pr-concludes the truth of its own bias. Err, doesn't the suggestion that Paul isn't infallible call into question the inerrancy of scripture? And yes, Jesus can't err, but we can, very easily, and thus misrepresent and indeed mistranslate what He said.
Quote from: marie glen on November 18, 2018, 09:24:53 PM
I kind of hate to bring this thread up again.. but i just had to add this, just for general information to file away if ever needed. Daniel 12:11,12 - Daniel said "from the time they take away, stop or remove the perpetual sacrifice" - most believe this indicates a 3rd temple and sacrifices.. and when the sacrifices are stopped [and yes, i know this prophecy was fulfilled before also] - but I think yes, stopping literal sacrifices, maybe so, put perhaps sooner if it is the removal or taking away of the 'Wailing Wall' where perpetual prayers are offered, because Jesus said of the buildings (complex?) not one stone would remain upon another -
But whatever it is, "from the time it's taken away, until the abomination that desolates is set up - I figure 666 & Amplified Bible says it in the margin - "will be 1,290 days, and happy is the one who waits and comes to 45 days later" (or that is to 1,335 days; most folks believe these are years, but that's a long time for one to wait and come to).
So.. That's (imo) the counting. When whatever it is, is taken away.. one can count the days then.. to the setting up of 666 (touted as a leap in consciousness/evolution?) and one could count days to the return of Jesus.
Imo.. of course.
:Peace2: :girlheart:
No, now you sound like an Endtimer. A lot of American Fundamentalist Endtimers hate Muslims and are racist against them. The very much support the cause of Israel so they can bulldoze the Dome of The Rock and get to work rebuilding the Temple so this part of prophecy can come to pass. They're not interested in peace in Israel or the world, Islam is simply the enemy to be routed.
They don't care that when David asked to build the temple God said 'No'! He told David that there had been much bloodshed in the land during his day and little peace so it would not be appropriate for David to build the temple but He would establish David's son and bring peace to the land so that it would then be appropriate for him to build the temple. But according to instruction it took seven years, IIRC.
Do you see these Endtimers taking seven years to rebuild the temple when their desire is to rush to the end so they can be raptured away? Do you think they care that the massive conflict in Israel over things like this makes it inappropriate to build the temple at present? No, if you're going to build God's House under that sort of spirit I wouldn't be at all surprised if the Devil rocks up there. Because if you believe what the Bible says about such matters, God sure isn't going to.
Quote from: MusicLover123 on November 18, 2018, 10:50:31 PM
Alright, so on the Gospel preached to the world, Ray had a bit of a different description of it. Here is a partial "summary of what he said:
"The good news Gospel: God is reproducing himself with Sons and Daughters that have to endure to the end in this fleshly life. God is calling out some now, and out of the called He is selecting a relative few (called and chosen) to reign in His Kingdom. The chosen are being judged now before the great World Judgement occurs where the rest of humanity will be judged and saved..."
If it is this specific description of The Gospel that is to be preached, then most have not heard this.
If it is the "believe in Christ death, burial and Resurrection" then most have heard.
'Most' is still not 'all'. There are still societies on the planet that drive us away or kill us as soon as we try to go to them, getting the Gospel to them (either form) is quite tricky and the people who try to establish contact these days are less and less interested in promoting the Gospel anyway.
Quote from: marie glen on November 19, 2018, 03:13:47 AM
:thumbsup: ...I think of it like fruit. And I know the bible talks about "God waiting for the harvest of the Earth" and Revelation talks of two in Rev.19.. plus all the spiritual simile, etc. concerning harvest(s).. But not only the good harvest, the wheat.. those who meet Him at His coming - all believers, those alive and those passed on/having died.
But the one of Rev, that the world's wrongdoings also have to come to fruit.
Also "the end" may start - to God's reckoning, long before we reckon, or notice. (As a matter of fact we could think of 'the end' - which precedes Jesus' return, as beginning with the disobedience in Eden.)
I'm not sure how to say this..
It's my opinion, if we understand Bible prophecy, we will be so much better at "watching". For instance the seals in chapter six are encoded. You know how? The whole seal is described. From their beginning, to what they are at their full progression or maturity (ride/gallop) at 'the end'.
Which obscured it (the vision) because things are told here so early on, basically, at the beginning of the vision.
Now there's method to my madness here. As I want to point something out. There's things which have to occur before His return. And I begin to think God's Word is even more literal than we (or I) have thought. [Literal blood of Christ on the Mercy Seat is way more literal than I ever would have expected, for instance. (Other thread..) And should that be only human imagination, I was very surprised at just how literally the Spring feasts were fulfilled by His 1st advent.
Keeping in mind how the seals are described, try reading them again. Whatever seal six is was, I believe it is also 7:1. This new fire/wind unleashed, is paused. I believe we are still in that pause. That 'the 'end' has not actually begun to escalate until this pause is broken. Tho I believe limited, initially. It's one of the things which seems very plain and obvious to me. Of course, I could be way off base. But of course I don't think so. :laughing7:
Remember how Mt.24 says "Immediately after the tribulation (troubles) of those days.. they shall see.. the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven, and He will send His angels out to gather His elect from the four corners (directions) of the world.."
Of course you'll never believe it unless you see it for yourself (at least that's the way I am).
:Peace2:
I'm not sure what you're trying to say here, the sixth seal and its consequences runs from 6:12 - 7:17 so obviously includes, but is not limited to 7:1. The opening of the Seventh Seal then follows beginning at 8:1. But it's not a pause really, God is sealing the 144000 and it probably doesn't take that long unless the 144000 crosses multitudes of generations which is plausible in some sense but then a lot of them won't be alive to refuse the mark of the beast because they won't live long enough in their natural life to see it rise (remember the beast from the sea comes under the sign of the seventh and last trumpet too).
Quote from: CST on November 20, 2018, 02:33:03 PM
Yeah, generally the continued presence of evil in the world when the Biblical prophecies in question tend to describe it's end quite clearly argue against Preterism.
I won't argue Preterism on this site, but I will say that whenever someone makes a statement about what the Bible "Clearly" says, it reminds me of what I was taught about Hell.
I may indeed be a little bit of an "endtimer" as that's what I believe is in the Bible, an end to man's rule, empires, nations. but I don't think, CST, that you inderstood most of what I wrote.. And you seemed kind of angry about it.. for which I do apologize. I guess my trying to relate this back to UR wasn't all that successful.
:Peace2:
Quote from: marie glen on November 20, 2018, 10:28:27 PM
I may indeed be a little bit of an "endtimer" as that's what I believe is in the Bible, an end to man's rule, empires, nations. but I don't think, CST, that you inderstood most of what I wrote.. And you seemed kind of angry about it.. for which I do apologize. I guess my trying to relate this back to UR wasn't all that successful.
:Peace2:
:goodpost:
Quote from: Patinak on November 20, 2018, 06:05:14 PM
Quote from: CST on November 20, 2018, 02:33:03 PM
Yeah, generally the continued presence of evil in the world when the Biblical prophecies in question tend to describe it's end quite clearly argue against Preterism.
I won't argue Preterism on this site, but I will say that whenever someone makes a statement about what the Bible "Clearly" says, it reminds me of what I was taught about Hell.
It's not really the same thing in my view, but I agree it's probably not best to pursue it here. Although f you're going to pursue it, maybe it's also best you don't bring it up. But we all find that trap all to easy to fall into.
Quote from: marie glen on November 20, 2018, 10:28:27 PM
I may indeed be a little bit of an "endtimer" as that's what I believe is in the Bible, an end to man's rule, empires, nations. but I don't think, CST, that you inderstood most of what I wrote.. And you seemed kind of angry about it.. for which I do apologize. I guess my trying to relate this back to UR wasn't all that successful.
:Peace2:
I actually don't believe you're an Endtimer because what Endtimers believe is not what you believe is taught in the Bible. Endtimers is a term, as I understand, for a large number of ET Evangelists that believe it is their God given business to help God rush along to the end so they can be raptured into heaven and He can start the first stage of the journey to Eternal Punishment for everyone else because they deserve no better. It's an abhorrent concept and one I know you don't believe because you believe in UR and, yes, it does make me angry which may be unreasonable because I shouldn't really get angry but it's the sort of service to God that actually does the biggest disservice to God.
I'm not actually angry with you though because I know you're not actually one of them.
Quote from: CST on November 21, 2018, 04:39:48 PM
Quote from: Patinak on November 20, 2018, 06:05:14 PM
Quote from: CST on November 20, 2018, 02:33:03 PM
Yeah, generally the continued presence of evil in the world when the Biblical prophecies in question tend to describe it's end quite clearly argue against Preterism.
I won't argue Preterism on this site, but I will say that whenever someone makes a statement about what the Bible "Clearly" says, it reminds me of what I was taught about Hell.
It's not really the same thing in my view, but I agree it's probably not best to pursue it here. Although f you're going to pursue it, maybe it's also best you don't bring it up. But we all find that trap all to easy to fall into.
Agreed.
Quote from: CST on November 21, 2018, 04:39:48 PM
I'm not actually angry with you though because I know you're not actually one of them.
If MG was an "Endtimer" according to your definition, would you be angry with her?
Just an honest question, not trying to give harsh judgment on you.
Quote from: Patinak on November 21, 2018, 04:45:32 PM
Quote from: CST on November 21, 2018, 04:39:48 PM
Quote from: Patinak on November 20, 2018, 06:05:14 PM
Quote from: CST on November 20, 2018, 02:33:03 PM
Yeah, generally the continued presence of evil in the world when the Biblical prophecies in question tend to describe it's end quite clearly argue against Preterism.
I won't argue Preterism on this site, but I will say that whenever someone makes a statement about what the Bible "Clearly" says, it reminds me of what I was taught about Hell.
It's not really the same thing in my view, but I agree it's probably not best to pursue it here. Although f you're going to pursue it, maybe it's also best you don't bring it up. But we all find that trap all to easy to fall into.
Agreed.
My opinion as to why it can be brought up but not pursued further:
People passing through will see Tentmaker as talking a lot about the end times and interpreting revelation and Daniel etc as happening in our lifetime or in the future.
On balance, I believe it is good to show the diverse views so they don't get a one-sided impression of what it mean to be a Christian Univeralist.
I put my views out there for that reason, for balance and for those passing though. If someone is interested in exploring preterism with an open mind they can do so on their own and not necessarily here, but then, again on balance, should end times discussions also be less of a focus on Tentmaker so we can focus on the Victorious Gospel instead?
And CST, to answer your comment earlier in this thread in response to mine about taking a break, yes I did initially leave because of the tone here. I don't want to feel that I am arguing doctrine so I'm trying my best to just place my views out there here and there and not get caught up in it too much. But in my short break I found it was nice to focus on the real world and my own connection to God and friends/family.
While for the most part people are kind, there's definitely an air of everyone wanting to be teachers and everyone feeling pretty authoritative about their own views.
Quote from: MusicLover123 on November 21, 2018, 05:36:34 PM
Quote from: CST on November 21, 2018, 04:39:48 PM
I'm not actually angry with you though because I know you're not actually one of them.
If MG was an "Endtimer" according to your definition, would you be angry with her?
Just an honest question, not trying to give harsh judgment on you.
More to the point, if MG was a Pharisee, would it be OK to be angry with her?
I mean that's the real question here, when it is an isn't OK to get angry and where you can direct that anger without sinning when you do. The Bible teaches that God is slow to anger yet when He gets angry His response is often very violent, or at least it seems that way. However angry I get I can't direct my anger that way fortunately, some characters in the Bible seem to direct their anger in very questionable ways and the fact they seem to get results suggests that God supports them indulging their anger even when that seems questionable given what actually happens.
Quote from: GodIsLove on November 21, 2018, 05:58:25 PM
Quote from: Patinak on November 21, 2018, 04:45:32 PM
Quote from: CST on November 21, 2018, 04:39:48 PM
Quote from: Patinak on November 20, 2018, 06:05:14 PM
Quote from: CST on November 20, 2018, 02:33:03 PM
Yeah, generally the continued presence of evil in the world when the Biblical prophecies in question tend to describe it's end quite clearly argue against Preterism.
I won't argue Preterism on this site, but I will say that whenever someone makes a statement about what the Bible "Clearly" says, it reminds me of what I was taught about Hell.
It's not really the same thing in my view, but I agree it's probably not best to pursue it here. Although f you're going to pursue it, maybe it's also best you don't bring it up. But we all find that trap all to easy to fall into.
Agreed.
My opinion as to why it can be brought up but not pursued further:
People passing through will see Tentmaker as talking a lot about the end times and interpreting revelation and Daniel etc as happening in our lifetime or in the future.
On balance, I believe it is good to show the diverse views so they don't get a one-sided impression of what it mean to be a Christian Univeralist.
I put my views out there for that reason, for balance and for those passing though. If someone is interested in exploring preterism with an open mind they can do so on their own and not necessarily here, but then, again on balance, should end times discussions also be less of a focus on Tentmaker so we can focus on the Victorious Gospel instead?
And CST, to answer your comment earlier in this thread in response to mine about taking a break, yes I did initially leave because of the tone here. I don't want to feel that I am arguing doctrine so I'm trying my best to just place my views out there here and there and not get caught up in it too much. But in my short break I found it was nice to focus on the real world and my own connection to God and friends/family.
While for the most part people are kind, there's definitely an air of everyone wanting to be teachers and everyone feeling pretty authoritative about their own views.
But if it isn't pursued only the first view posted will be what is seem. When people are passionate about things, which they tend to be on matters of religious belief they can find it very hard not to defend those views when they're challenged. They feel like they'll come across as lacking conviction which does present the view very well.
Unfortunately, that's also exactly the sort of problem that causes the sort of attitudes that are making you uncomfortable to read. People tend to defend to defend their views as if they're absolutely certain about them because there's an impression nothing less is convincing. Jesus certainly defended His points with that degree of conviction.
Fortunately, Jesus was able to avoid falling into the trap most of us fall into of taken attacks on our belief system personally and thus responding personally in return. Which is, sadly, what drives you away because you are wiser than that. But glad you're back now.