"When And How the Jewish People Was Invented" is a very serious study written by Professor Shlomo Sand, an Israeli historian. It is the most serious study of Jewish nationalism and by far, the most courageous elaboration on the Jewish historical narrative.
In his book, Sand manages to prove beyond any reasonable doubt that the Jewish people never existed as a 'nation-race', they never shared a common origin. Instead they are a colourful mix of groups that at various stages in history adopted the Jewish religion.
In case you follow Sand's line of thinking and happen to ask yourself, "when was the Jewish People invented?" Sand's answer is rather simple. "At a certain stage in the 19th century, intellectuals of Jewish origin in Germany, influenced by the folk character of German nationalism, took upon themselves the task of inventing a people 'retrospectively,' out of a thirst to create a modern Jewish people." [2]
Accordingly, the 'Jewish people' is a 'made up' notion consisting of a fictional and imaginary past with very little to back it up forensically, historically or textually. Furthermore, Sand - who elaborated on early sources of antiquity - comes to the conclusion that Jewish exile is also a myth, and that the present-day Palestinians are far more likely to be the descendants of the ancient Semitic people in Judea/Canaan than the current predominantly Khazarian-origin Ashkenazi crowd to which he himself admittedly belongs.
full article here http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article20675.htm (http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article20675.htm)
:cloud9: Apparently, God, who wrote the Book, has other ideas........the word Jew is used 76 times in the Book. It means........
Original Word Word Origin
ydwhy patronymically from (03063)
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Y@huwdiy TWOT - 850a
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
yeh-hoo-dee' Noun Masculine
Definition
1. Jew
King James Word Usage - Total: 76
Jew 74, Jew + (0376) 1, Judah 1
Which comes from.....
Original Word Word Origin
hdwhy from (03034)
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Y@huwdah TWOT - 850c
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
yeh-hoo-daw' Proper Name Masculine
Definition
Judah = "praised"
1. the son of Jacob by Leah
2. the TRIBE descended from Judah the son of Jacob
3. the territory occupied by the tribe of Judah
4. the KINGDOM comprised of the TRIBES of Judah and Benjamin which occupied the southern part of Canaan after the nation split upon the death of Solomon
5. a Levite in Ezra's time
6. an overseer of Jerusalem in the time of Nehemiah
7. a Levite musician in the time of Nehemiah
8. a priest in the time of Nehemiah
King James Word Usage - Total: 818
Which comes from.......
Original Word Word Origin
hdy a primitive root; used only as denominative from (03027)
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Yadah TWOT - 847
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
yaw-daw' Verb
Definition
1. to throw, shoot, cast
1. (Qal) to shoot (arrows)
2. (Piel) to cast, cast down, throw down
3. (Hiphil)
1. to give thanks,, laud, praise
2. to confess, confess (the name of God)
4. (Hithpael)
1. to confess (sin)
2. to give thanks
King James Word Usage - Total: 114
Which comes from......
Original Word Word Origin
dy a primitive word
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Yad TWOT - 844
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
yawd Noun Feminine
Definition
1. hand
1. hand (of man)
2. strength, power (fig.)
3. side (of land), part, portion (metaph.) (fig.)
4. (various special, technical senses)
1. sign, monument
2. part, fractional part, share
3. time, repetition
4. axle-trees, axle
5. stays, support (for laver)
6. tenons (in tabernacle)
7. a phallus, a hand (meaning unsure)
8. wrists
King James Word Usage - Total: 1615
:cloud9: Additionally, Paul who is thought to have written a large part of the NT scriptures, apparently was "confused" about his "erroneous identity" as well, as he stated here;
Ac 22:3 - I am verily a man which am a Jew, born in Tarsus, a city in Cilicia, yet brought up in this city at the feet of Gamaliel, and taught according to the perfect manner of the law of the fathers, and was zealous toward God, as ye all are this day.
If I say I am an American, it tells you nothing of my ethnic background. It just identifies the country where I was born and grew up.
Likewise when Paul says he is a Yehudite, he is telling us he lived in Judah.
"Jew"
G2453
Ἰουδαῖος
Ioudaios
ee-oo-dah'-yos
From G2448 (in the sense of G2455 as a country); udaean, that is, belonging to Jehudah: - Jew (-ess), of Juda.
Later, he gives us his ethnic background--
Romans 11:1
I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
He is a Hebrew of the tribe of Benjamin, tracing his lineage all the way back to Abraham.
Let's look at the word Jew a little more closely, then--
Main Entry: Jew
Pronunciation: \ˈjü\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French ju, jeu, from Latin Judaeus, from Greek Ioudaios, from Hebrew Yĕhūdhī, from Yĕhūdhāh Judah, Jewish kingdom
Date: 13th century
1 a : a member of the tribe of Judah b : israelite
2 : a member of a nation existing in Palestine from the sixth century b.c. to the first century a.d.
3 : a person belonging to a continuation through descent or conversion of the ancient Jewish people
4 : one whose religion is Judaism
This definition dates the term to the 13th century, and no where is it used to apply to the 12 Hebrew tribes.
It was, in fact, used by the translators of the King James Bible in a vernacular meaning.
But, what is the true meaning of this slang word? Either one who is of the tribe of Judah or one who is from the country of Judah. The usage as it is used today belies the question ---what happened to the other 11 tribes?
Main Entry: Ju·da·ism
Pronunciation: \ˈjü-dē-ˌi-zəm, ˈjü-də-, ˈjü-(ˌ)dā-, British also ˈjü-ˌdi-zəm\
Function: noun
Date: 14th century
To reject the antiquity of the Jewish people is to reject the Bible, sorry, but can't jump on that KKK boat with you. That kind of revisionism has been being spouted only since after Israel retook Jerusalem and Islamic scholars felt the need to justify their racial hatred and say that they were never a race to start with. You will find absolutely no one but the KKK saying that prior to that 'cept for maybe the Nazis, and even then it wasn't so much that as a revision of Darwinism that instead of the African being the missing link between whatever and the white man, instead it was the Jew they were considering monkey man because of their superior race issue that they had.
Quote from: noname on October 27, 2009, 10:18:15 AM
"When And How the Jewish People Was Invented" is a very serious study written by Professor Shlomo Sand, an Israeli historian. It is the most serious study of Jewish nationalism and by far, the most courageous elaboration on the Jewish historical narrative.
In his book, Sand manages to prove beyond any reasonable doubt that the Jewish people never existed as a 'nation-race', they never shared a common origin. Instead they are a colourful mix of groups that at various stages in history adopted the Jewish religion.
In case you follow Sand's line of thinking and happen to ask yourself, "when was the Jewish People invented?" Sand's answer is rather simple. "At a certain stage in the 19th century, intellectuals of Jewish origin in Germany, influenced by the folk character of German nationalism, took upon themselves the task of inventing a people 'retrospectively,' out of a thirst to create a modern Jewish people." [2]
Accordingly, the 'Jewish people' is a 'made up' notion consisting of a fictional and imaginary past with very little to back it up forensically, historically or textually. Furthermore, Sand - who elaborated on early sources of antiquity - comes to the conclusion that Jewish exile is also a myth, and that the present-day Palestinians are far more likely to be the descendants of the ancient Semitic people in Judea/Canaan than the current predominantly Khazarian-origin Ashkenazi crowd to which he himself admittedly belongs.
full article here http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article20675.htm (http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article20675.htm)
Well Gee that settles it, throw out the bible since it lies when it says Jesus was King of the Jews.
Idiot.
QuoteWell Gee that settles it, throw out the bible since it lies when it says Jesus was King of the Jews.
Idiot.
Again there is that same word Ioudaios, or Yehudite, that is, one who lives in the country of Iouda or Judah. It is referring to a country--Judah--, and the people who live there.
[KING OF THE]
"JEWS"G2453
Ἰουδαῖος
Ioudaiosee-oo-dah'-yos
From G2448 (in the sense of G2455
as a country); udaean,
that is, belonging to Jehudah: - Jew (-ess), of Juda.
G2448
Ἰουδά
Ioudaee-oo-dah'
Of Hebrew origin [H3063] or perhaps [H3194];
Judah (that is, Jehudah or Juttah),
a part of (or place in) Palestine: -
Judah.
It seems as though they came together as a nation while in captivity in Egypt.
Quote from: Beloved Servant on October 27, 2009, 08:39:09 PM
It seems as though they came together as a nation while in captivity in Egypt.
No--the history--off the top of my head--
The Israelites were made up of twelve tribes. The twelve tribes were united under King Saul, King David, King Solomon--but after Solomon died, the tribes split up into the northern kingdom [Israel] and the southern kingdom [Judah]. The northern kingdom of Israel contained ten tribes plus the Levite priests. The southern kingdom Judah contained two tribes--Judah and Benjamin--plus the Levite priests.
The northern kingdom--Israel--was taken into captivity by the assyrians--and those ten tribes pretty much disappeared to history. The southern kingdom--Judah--was taken into captivity later by the Babylonians [the book of Daniel], but they were later allowed to return to rebuild the temple [book of Ezra]. So at the time of Jesus, only the southern kingdom was present [Judah, Benjamin, some Levites, converts, people that moved in when the Yehudites were taken into captivity, etc], but the northern ten tribes were still mostly missing.
Jewish Diaspora (so called)
Deuteronomy 28:64 (Amplified Bible)
64 And the Lord shall scatter you among all peoples from one end of the earth to the other; and there you shall [be forced to] serve other gods, of wood and stone, which neither you nor your fathers have known.
Ezekiel 22:15: And I will scatter you among the nations and disperse you through the countries, and I will consume your filthiness out of you.
Interestingly, some researchers now think the ancient Greek city of Mycenae belonged to the tribe of Dan.
Yes, the northern ten tribes were scattered throughout the world.
My pet theory is that they are the Christians. But, who knows? Only God, and he said every country in the world would be blessed by them.
Quote from: Molly on October 27, 2009, 08:34:32 PM
QuoteWell Gee that settles it, throw out the bible since it lies when it says Jesus was King of the Jews.
Idiot.
Again there is that same word Ioudaios, or Yehudite, that is, one who lives in the country of Iouda or Judah. It is referring to a country--Judah--, and the people who live there.
[KING OF THE] "JEWS"
G2453
Ἰουδαῖος
Ioudaios
ee-oo-dah'-yos
From G2448 (in the sense of G2455 as a country); udaean, that is, belonging to Jehudah: - Jew (-ess), of Juda.
G2448
Ἰουδά
Iouda
ee-oo-dah'
Of Hebrew origin [H3063] or perhaps [H3194]; Judah (that is, Jehudah or Juttah), a part of (or place in) Palestine: - Judah.
Sigh.....
H3063 Yhuwdah yeh-hoo-daw'
from H3034;
celebrated; Jehudah (or Judah), the name of five Israelites; also of the tribe
descended from the first, and of its territory:--Judah.
Quotealso of the tribe
descended from the first, and of its territory:--Judah.
Yes, you can be a Yehudite and actually descended from the
tribe of Judah, as were many Yehudites, but not Paul. Judah is only
one of 12 tribes of Israel.
Paul was a Yehudite because he lived in Judah, but he descended from the tribe of Benjamin.
If you are not born in Judah and not a descendent of the tribe of Judah, what are you?
Most likely lost. Or, identified by your tribe, or by the general name of Israelite [OT] or Hebrew.
Judah is both a country and one of the 12 tribes of Israel.
But, it's really non biblical to apply the slang word Jew to someone who today is not descended from the tribe of Judah [since the country of Judah no longer exists]. I can appreciate the way the word is used today, but I cannot see how it has anything to do with our Bible.
Unless I'm missing something...
The wild branches that were grafted into the olive are the nations who came to faith in Jesus. Those of what was Israel and Judea were broken off, though they could be grafted in again if they remained not in unbelief. The peoples of the temple in Jerusalem and the Priesthood of Aaron were all dispersed into the rest of the world. So the tree we were grafted into is only one tree. The root was ancient Israel and Judah. The branches were those of God's ancient people and the nations that believed in Jesus. "He made of the twain one new man." There is no "natural Israel descended from Abraham after the flesh Tree to inherit an earthly reward" on one hand and "spiritual gentiles born of God Tree to an inheritance in the heavenlies." There is only one tree that has both natural and wild branches.
What Jesus said about the racial descendants of Abraham in John 6 clearly reveals many of them to be children of the devil. There is no covenant to a race of people according to the flesh. The flesh profits nothing. Jesus says, "Behold, I make all things new."
Romans 2:28-29 (Authorized Version)...
28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
John 8:31-59 (Concordant Literal Translation)...
31 Jesus, then, said to the Jews who have believed Him, "If ever you should be remaining in My word, you are truly My disciples,
32 and you will know the truth, and the truth will be making you free."
33 They answered Him, "The seed of Abraham are we, and we have never been slaves of anyone. How are you saying that 'You shall be becoming free'?"
34 Jesus answered them, "Verily, verily, I am saying to you that everyone who is doing sin, is a slave of sin.
35 Now the slave is not remaining in the house for the eon. The son is remaining for the eon.
36 If ever, then, the Son should be making you free, you will be really free.
37 I am aware that you are Abraham's seed. But you are seeking to kill Me, for My word has no room in you.
38 What I have seen with My Father am I speaking. You also, then, what you hear from your father are doing."
39 They answered and say to Him, "Our father is Abraham." Jesus answered them, "If you are children of Abraham, did you ever do the works of Abraham?
40 Yet now you are seeking to kill Me, a Man Who has spoken to you the truth which I hear from God. This Abraham does not do.
41 Yet you are doing the works of your father." They say to Him, "We were not born of prostitution! One Father have we, God!"
42 Jesus, then, said to them, "If God were your Father, you would have loved Me. For out of God I came forth and am arriving. For neither have I come of Myself, but He commissions Me.
43 Wherefore do you not know My speech? Seeing that you can not hear My word.
44 You are of your father, the Adversary, and the desires of your father you are wanting to do. He was a man-killer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, for truth is not in him. Whenever he may be speaking a lie, he is speaking of his own, for he is a liar, and the father of it.
45 Yet I -- seeing that I am speaking the truth, you are not believing Me.
46 Who of you is exposing Me concerning sin? If I am telling the truth, wherefore are you not believing Me?
47 He who is of God is hearing God's declarations. Therefore you are not hearing, seeing that you are not of God."
48 The Jews answered and say to Him, "Are we not saying ideally that you are a Samaritan and have a demon?"
49 Jesus answered and said, "I have no demon, but I am honoring My Father, and you are dishonoring Me.
50 Now I am not seeking My glory. He is the One Who is seeking it and judging.
51 Verily, Verily, I am saying to you, If ever anyone should be keeping My word, he should under no circumstances be beholding death for the eon."
52 The Jews said to Him, "Now we know that you have a demon. Abraham died, and the prophets, and you are saying, 'If ever anyone should be keeping my word, he should under no circumstances be tasting death for the eon.'
53 Not you are greater than our father Abraham who died! And the prophets died. Whom are you making yourself to be?"
54 Jesus answered, "If I should ever be glorifying Myself, My glory is nothing. It is My Father Who is glorifying Me, of Whom you are saying that He is your God.
55 And you know Him not, yet I am acquainted with Him, and if I should be saying that I am not acquainted with Him, I shall be like you, a liar. But I am acquainted with Him and I am keeping His word.
56 Abraham, your father, exults that he may become acquainted with My day, and he was acquainted with it and rejoiced."
57 The Jews, then, said to Him, "You have not as yet lived fifty years, and you have seen Abraham!"
58 Jesus said to them, "Verily, verily, I am saying to you, Ere Abraham came into being, I am."
59 They pick up stones, then, that they should be casting them at Him. Yet Jesus was hid and came out of the sanctuary. And passing through the midst of them, He went and thus passed by.
The nation of Kenazia was written of in the Encyclopedia Brittanica (1978) under an article titled: "Judaism." They were a country where Germany is now. They took up Judaism as a national religion in th 8th Century AD. Ashkenazy Jews are Turks and Huns and Syrians, etc., descended racially from Jephath, not Shem; so, they are not racially "Semites." The contemporary definition of "Shemites" is linguistic, "those who speak Semitic languages." The top 5 English language Encyclopedias, as well as Encyclopedia Judaical concur: there is no such thing as a "Jewish" race. Judaism has always been a religion. Its adherents from earliest times, as recorded in the Books of the Kings in the Bible, intermarried with the nations around them.
The Ashkenazim are the Zionist Jews of today that dwell in modern Israel. They are Israelis and not Israelites. The Encyclopedias are contrary to Lindsey, Van Impe, Perry Stone, and ilk. The most extensive research on this Ashkenazim thing I know of was written by a Jew by the name of Arthur Koestler in his book The Thirteenth Tribe. I can't vouch for a reputed version I found online which was too short and lacking things I've heard read from the original. Only about 5% of the world's Jews have proof of being racially related to Abraham. They are "Shephardic," meaning, "from Spain." They do NOT accept the present day nation in the Sinai Peninsula as being the real "Israel." They await the coming Messiah to set it up.
The popular professional preachers say that the Bible says, "Whoever blesses the Jew, God will bless; and, whoever curses the Jew, God will curse." That is a non-existent verse. It is hearsay derived from, "And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee..." (Gn 12:3, AV) that God spoke to the person of Abraham. Some people hearing me point out these things say I'm anti-Semitic, or, that I'm cursing the Jew. That is not at all what I've said. We are told to, "Bless and curse not." That is what I seek to do, "Overcome evil with good."
Contemporary Bible translations have added to the confusion. Among other things, God says, "And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God." (Gn 17:8, AV) The New American Standard Bible, for instance, has deviated from the original underlying Hebrew in many places. As one important example, "And I will give to you and to your descendants after you, the land of your sojournings, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God." (Gn 17:8, NASB) Notice any change?
"Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ." Ga 3:16
"And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." (Ga 3:29, AV)
Romans 4:13-14, (AV)...
13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect...
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on October 27, 2009, 04:35:19 PM
Well Gee that settles it, throw out the bible since it lies when it says Jesus was King of the Jews.
Idiot.
here's another clincher...Judaism's "holy book" is the Talmud, not the Bible...mmm?
who's the idiot you referring to, the writer of the article or me?
Quote from: reFORMer on October 28, 2009, 06:28:31 AM
The Ashkenazim are the Zionist Jews of today that dwell in modern Israel. They are Israelis and not Israelites. The Encyclopedias are contrary to Lindsey, Van Impe, Perry Stone, and ilk. The most extensive research on this Ashkenazim thing I know of was written by a Jew by the name of Arthur Koestler in his book The Thirteenth Tribe. I can't vouch for a reputed version I found online which was too short and lacking things I've heard read from the original. Only about 5% of the world's Jews have proof of being racially related to Abraham. They are "Shephardic," meaning, "from Spain." They do NOT accept the present day nation in the Sinai Peninsula as being the real "Israel." They await the coming Messiah to set it up.
:cloud9: Just a note here.........Think there's a much higher number reFORMer; this is from a medical site that is studying haplo-types. And I'm descended from Sephardic Jews myself, and have email contact with over 2600 of them, who do believe Israel is Israel. Just like the Christians, the two groups have their own little rivalry going over who is what, and who is not.
"The trouble is that Ashkenazic Jews, who make up 80 percent of the world's Jewish population despite being almost halved between 1939-45, do not look like they are simply "out of Jerusalem." In fact, by all modern criteria, they are, like almost all Jews in the world, a mixture of Levantine genes with the genes of whatever local population they lived among." by Mervin Konner, author of "Unsettled: An anthropology of the Jews"
This is sort of a refreshing change of pace for me though, as I usually get accused of being "too spiritual". Nevertheless, to add to this and get back in my "properly labeled box", let me say that I'm aware that there is a spiritual component to this, and that Israel of the natural variety is simply a witness to what is going on in the Spirit. I think most of us would agree with that.
So my question is this; if the body (natural) is doing what it sees it's Head (Spirit) do, why would we want to "cut the Head off the body?" Isn't that what the "Herod's" of this world seek to do, to any that follow Him?
And some Christians might say: "but WE'RE His body", and that is also true; but the sons of God are pressing in to become one with the HEAD, IF so be it, they are pressing into that which is BEYOND THE VEIL.
And those that are not, like the Jews? Well, they're the "feet" part of His body. The scripture, "Blessed are the FEET of those that stand upon Mt. Zion?
The feet are blessed, BECAUSE we are going to stand upon Mt. Zion as deliverers of the rest of the body, INCLUDING the "feet". Selah. Blessings....
Quote from: noname on October 28, 2009, 03:42:02 PM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on October 27, 2009, 04:35:19 PM
Well Gee that settles it, throw out the bible since it lies when it says Jesus was King of the Jews.
Idiot.
here's another clincher...Judaism's "holy book" is the Talmud, not the Bible...mmm?
who's the idiot you referring to, the writer of the article or me?
It doesn't clinch what you think. The progression of the word meanings from the bible is counter evidence since it talks about descendants which does not mean someone who just lives in the region, but blood lines which indicates race.
Since the bible is not the holy book then it is not tainted with bias along those lines.
People seem happy in jumping on the anti jewish band wagon while believing the end times nonsense and thinking the great fall of america is coming and I can't help but think
that secretly these people, and if it includes you so be it, wish Hitler would of succeeded. In reality they are nothing but stone cold cowards.
And yes I will call them idiots, so if the shoe fits, wear it.
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on October 28, 2009, 05:58:26 PMIt doesn't clinch what you think. The progression of the word meanings from the bible is counter evidence since it talks about descendants which does not mean someone who just lives in the region, but blood lines which indicates race.
Since the bible is not the holy book then it is not tainted with bias along those lines.
People seem happy in jumping on the anti jewish band wagon while believing the end times nonsense and thinking the great fall of america is coming and I can't help but think
that secretly these people, and if it includes you so be it, wish Hitler would of succeeded. In reality they are nothing but stone cold cowards.
And yes I will call them idiots, so if the shoe fits, wear it.
All of us could use a
refresher course in tact/diplomacy on a wide variety of matters & I've kept my comments minimal 'cause anyone that's actually read the Bible knows that the Bible itself is using the word "Jew" with regards to descendants of Abraham & not a geographic whatever of ancient Judea. Comes up in Esther that these were "Jews" and Iran's definitely not "Judea" though Haman would have loved these "judean" arguments had he entered into the sociological and theological AntiSemitism arguments of the last 3 to 6 decades.
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on October 28, 2009, 05:58:26 PM
People seem happy in jumping on the anti jewish band wagon
Things have changed fast here the last 10-15 years.
Extreme right was always anti-Jewish. No big revelation I think.
Center right-wing and a smaller fraction of center left-wing said negative things about the Jews/Israel if the deserved it.
But if one even thought about something slightly anti-Jewish the left-wing instantly pulled the Hitler card.
But Israel is totally out of grace now, including the USA, everything Israel (and the USA) do is slandered by the left-wingers. Now there are more right winger pro Israel than left wingers.
Most people just follow the flow. Beware of propaganda!
Martin
QuoteMost people just follow the flow. Beware of propaganda!
Wars, economic down turns, famines, et. al. [these days] aren't started over religion and any of ten dozen things that many people including able philosophers and authors have thought they were started over. It's all about the propaganda. Greed is just another kind of lust, or desire gone to the darkside with fear and pain having been cultivated in one's heart by nursing and rehearsing it until it's conceived a genetically modified organism. Greed doesn't even do it BY ITSELF. It's about the propaganda. Propaganda is what people follow, not religion, politics, or even really sports and sex. It's all about the propaganda! Propaganda is what makes the world go 'round. It gets the money that makes the rules.
Does that mean we agree Martin? :dontknow: :happy3:
Religion is quite often used as a coverup.
Quote from: WhiteWings on October 28, 2009, 06:45:45 PMDoes that mean we agree Martin? :dontknow: :happy3:
Religion is quite often used as a coverup.
I hit the edit button to add to my post and then I stepped away to get something to drink after adding something to my previous post and when I got back, I had this message waiting for me in red print:
QuoteYour session timed out while posting. Please try to re-submit your message.
No subject was filled in.
The message body was left empty.
And when I looked for whether or not my second edition of that post had gone thru, it vanished completely. So, I've got to repost it here, I guess:
Quote from: WhiteWings on October 28, 2009, 06:24:32 PMMost people just follow the flow. Beware of propaganda!
Wars, economic down turns, famines, et. al. [these days] aren't started over religion and any of ten dozen things that many people including able philosophers and authors have thought they were started over. It's all about the propaganda. Greed is just another kind of lust, or desire gone to the darkside with fear and pain having been cultivated in one's heart by nursing and rehearsing it until it's conceived a genetically modified organism. Greed doesn't even do it BY ITSELF. It's about the propaganda. Propaganda is what people follow, not religion, politics, or even really sports and sex. It's all about the propaganda! Propaganda is what makes the world go 'round. It gets the money that makes the rules. So God meets it on it's own level and saves the world thru the foolishness of preaching, which makes it a universal rule that the best propagandist wins the prize of whatever sort it may be, viz., the money, the girl, the heart of the nation, leadership of the world, et. al.
And yes, there's no question that religion, race, and other things are used as cover ups and justification, the oppressed being spin doctored into the oppressors, et. al., [sorta like the ir-rationale applied to speciesism that if we didn't kill so many animals, they'd overpopulate the planet, which isn't even worthy of being responded to by anyone with any sense that can see thru factory farming and other issues] but the bottomline [IN EVERYTHING] is propaganda.
Even when the causes are good, worthy, noble, etc., propaganda is 98% of the spiritual warfare to get it out there.
Quote from: martincisneros on October 28, 2009, 06:58:18 PM
but the bottomline [IN EVERYTHING] is propaganda.
Martin, I sense some, ermmmm, propaganda for the Son's return... :winkgrin: .
QuoteI hit the edit button to add to my post and then I stepped away to get something to drink after adding something to my previous post and when I got back, I had this message waiting for me in red print:
Your new topic vanished too...
Quote from: Martin..anyone that's actually read the Bible knows that the Bible itself is using the word "Jew" with regards to descendants of Abraham & not a geographic whatever of ancient Judea.
If you could show me where the word is used, where it does not refer to either the tribe of Judah or the kingdom of Judah, that would be helpful.
I don't see it being applied to the Hebrews or the Israelites as a whole. But, maybe I'm wrong.
The tribe of Judah are descendants of Abraham, as are the original residents of the country of Judah.
Esther was a descendant of the group from the country of Judah [tribes of Judah, Benjamin, plus some Levite priests] who were taken into captivity by the Babylonians.
--Me
Thus the history of the descendants of the kingdom of Judah, the Jews, continued to be recorded in what would become the Bible. However, their brethren of the other Israelitish tribes, taken into captivity earlier by the Assyrians, had by now largely lost their identity in the former Assyrian Empire, just as foretold in prophecy (2 Kings 17).
Persian Period: Ezra, Nehemiah, Esther
The Old Testament period ends during the era of Persian rule. Several Bible books accurately describe the Persian customs of the time. While the books of Ezra and Nehemiah relate the return of the Jews to the land of Judah, the book of Esther recounts the story of a young Jewish girl named Esther who became the queen of King Xerxes I.
........
Queen Esther Saves the Jews
Even though thousands of Jews successfully resettled the territory of the former kingdom of Judah, many remained dispersed throughout the chief cities of the Persian Empire. The book of Esther gives us a glimpse of the influence the Jewish community had in the empire between 500 and 450 B.C., as well as the problems that influence sometimes engendered.
--The Kingdom of Judah: Exile and Restoration
http://www.ucg.ca/booklets/BA2/exilerestoration.asp
Esther 3:6
And he thought scorn to lay hands on Mordecai alone; for they had shewed him the people of Mordecai: wherefore Haman sought to destroy all the Jews that were throughout the whole kingdom of Ahasuerus, even the people of Mordecai.
"Jews"
H3064
יהוּדי
y'hûdîy
yeh-hoo-dee'
Patronymic from H3063; a Jehudite (that is, Judaite or Jew), or descendant of Jehudah (that is, Judah): - Jew.
You are on a subject that is "dear" to the "heart of God." I'll tell you why. Because the MYSTERY of Christ, "is" Jew and Gentile
becoming ONE, and IN HIM, there is neither. But before we are IN HIM, He is IN US, to get us IN HIM. Is Christ being formed in
you? Then you will have no Jew nor no Gentile when the Mystery is
complete. Selah.
But til then, let me tell you of "MY" studies in this subject which actually "began" in April of "this" year!!! I had NEVER noticed so profoundly that Jesus came to minister "first" to the Jew, that He was a
minister of the circumscism for the fulfillment of the covenant.
Now what all does "that" mean? When I understood, finally, I had
someone tell me of Romans 11 and how that God does not want me
to be "ignorant" of this MYSTERY........He does not want me to be puffed up concerning the Jews, nor does He want me to NOT acknowledge their role in receiving the covenants from God and
passing them down generation after generation.
So ....tho we are gentiles, God must put IN US a LOVE for the
"cut off" Jew, and a Mercy, which surely should be in people who
believe in UR, because it is thru OUR Mercy, that they will obtain
Mercy. And God knows, what is happening there now, Mercy is
sure needed. So what kind of Mercy can we show! God says, "MY house shall be a house of prayer for ALL people." Not just for the
Jews, but for the Palestianians too.
Before I can "pray" even knowing the "will" of God, for that is the
prayer He will answer, His Own Will, but before I can "pray" I must
have an understanding given me from God concerning these issues,
else I will just pick one of the two sides and go with it, then our
prayers will be just as divided as the opinions of man.
So..........I have resolved that I will study this issue, and I am glad
that this Noname person has included this side of the issue. I have
noticed right off that the Jews have as many "opionions" as do us
Christians ........making it hard to but hope that God will see our
struggle in trying to learn about it, and REVEAL SOME THINGS TO US.
FOR IF HE DOESN'T HOW MUCH WE ARE LIKE ALL MEN. OPINIONATED.
[The recounting of the lost ten tribes of the northern country of Israel, taken into captivity by the Assyrians, and lost to history forever, in 2 Kings 17]
5 The king of Assyria marched into the whole land of Israel. He marched to Samaria and surrounded it for three years. From time to time he attacked it. 6 Finally, the king of Assyria captured Samaria. It was in the ninth year of Hoshea. The king of Assyria took the people of Israel away from their own land. He sent them off to Assyria. He settled some of them in Halah. He settled others in Gozan on the Habor River. And he settled still others in the towns of the Medes.
7 All of that took place because the people of Israel had committed sins against the Lord their God. He had brought them up out of Egypt. He had brought them out from under the power of Pharaoh, the king of Egypt. But they worshiped other gods.
8 The Lord had driven out other nations to make room for them. But they followed the evil practices of those nations. They also followed the practices that the kings of Israel had started. 9 The people of Israel did things against the Lord their God in secret. What they did wasn't right. They built high places for worship in all of their towns. They built them at lookout towers. They also built them at cities that had high walls around them. 10 They set up sacred stones. And they set up poles that were used to worship the goddess Asherah. They did that on every high hill and under every green tree.
11 The Lord had driven out nations to make room for Israel. But the people of Israel burned incense at every high place, just as those nations had done. The Israelites did evil things that made the Lord very angry. 12 They worshiped statues of gods. They did it even though the Lord had said, "Do not do that."
17 They sacrificed their sons and daughters in the fire. They practiced all kinds of evil magic. They gave themselves over to do what was evil in the sight of the Lord. All of those things made him very angry.
20 So the Lord turned his back on all of the people of Israel. He made them suffer. He handed them over to people who stole everything they had. And finally he threw them out of his land.
35 The Lord made a covenant with the people of Israel. At that time he commanded them, "Do not worship any other gods. Do not bow down to them. Do not serve them or sacrifice to them. 36 I am the one you must worship. I brought you up out of Egypt by my great power. I saved you by reaching out my mighty arm. You must bow down to me. You must offer sacrifices to me. 37 You must always be careful to follow my directions and rules. You must obey the laws and commands I wrote for you. Do not worship other gods.
38 "Do not forget the covenant I made with you. And remember, you must not worship other gods. 39 Instead, worship me. I will save you from the powerful hand of all of your enemies. I am the Lord your God."
40 But the people wouldn't listen. Instead, they were stubborn. They continued in their old practices. 41 They worshiped the Lord. But at the same time, they served the statues of their gods. And to this very day their children and grandchildren continue to do what their people before them did.
Matthew 15:24
But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
To my mind all of this mess started when the original 12 tribes of Israel demanded a king [which goes along with worshipping false gods]. After that, it was all downhill, until Jesus.
One of the saddest statements in the Bible is this--
1 Samuel 8:7
And the LORD said unto Samuel, Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee: for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them.
Quote from: Molly on October 28, 2009, 07:51:21 PMIf you could show me where the word is used, where it does not refer to either the tribe of Judah or the kingdom of Judah, that would be helpful.
I don't see it being applied to the Hebrews or the Israelites as a whole. But, maybe I'm wrong.
The tribe of Judah are descendants of Abraham, as are the original residents of the country of Judah.
I'm not sure of a passage that I could show you that would satisfy you, since I'm never going to quote the book of Mormon for a potential "Jew" reference that's not middle eastern, & most things that I could say could be presupposed to be talking about "over there" because with the exception of a few parts of the New Testament, some of Paul's epistles & Revelation, much of it was written in the middle east. However, the word does take on different meanings in it's usage throughout Scripture, such as obviously referring to the priests and Rabbis in the Gospels, almost exclusively. & in the mouths of the priests in the Passion drama & perhaps the early chapters of Acts, they're using it in a national sense with being fearful of the Romans destroying the Jewish nation.
The whole original argument that started this thread is a common subterfuge that's never about whether or not the term "Jews" applies to all 12 tribes of Israel, or the Hebrews, but is often a fancy bit of pseudo intellectual propoganda tossed out there on the part of nit-wits hoping to discredit Israel's rights to exist as a nation. Yet in the era when the Kingdoms of this world are becoming the Kingdoms of our Lord, of His Christ, & of His saints, it makes sense that He'd be resurrecting the nation to have the distinction of being among those nations that the Body of Christ rules over during the coming millenium that precedes the return of Jesus Christ to judge the living & the dead.
I'm a bit of a renegade for a Postmillenialist in allowing for the Jeremiah 31 land grant to include a natural land of Hebrew/Jewish Israel in addition to a spiritual inheritance of Mt Zion for Christians described in Hebrews of our immortality in this life & all of the riches of the nations & of the Kingdom being ours. It wouldn't have millenial significance in the way that dispensational premillenialist would view it, i.e., that because of this, then Lord Jesus's return is any minute. But it would have "beloved for the sake of the fathers: Abraham, Isaac, & Jacob" millenial significance as it says in Romans & "the gifts & callings of God being without repentance" which contextually is about a nation of Jews/Hebrews, i.e. the fulfillment of the prayer prayed in Acts 1 that Israel would be restored. Most people have never looked at that question asked there as a prayer, yet Who was being asked about Israel's restoration?
& His answer wasn't a "no." His answer was about those times & seasons being with the Father, or in other words, "encoded" in the Old Testament, & that was from the mouth of the one that St. Paul calls in 1Timothy 2 the One Mediator. Israel was restored in 1948 & regained it's capital in 1967 in answer to that prayer that was prayed that day in Acts 1. Israel was restored, a nation of Jews, BECAUSE this IS the time of the regeneration of all things & those Apostles, thru the preaching of the Gospel in our day, have every right to judge all 12 tribes.
As we preach the Gospel, the nations are judged. As we preach the Gospel, the Apostles are judging Israel. As we preach the Gospel, the whole earth is filled with His glory. If Hebrews 11 were to include the names of the Apostles at it's close, then they without us cannot be made perfect. Or in other words, the faith that Lord Jesus is the developer, or finish carpenter, of in the next chapter requires our preaching the Gospel so that they with us are made perfect & so that the Written Judgments are executed upon these nations as it says in Psalm 149, which includes Israel.
The real questions aren't about whether or not a Jew is a Jew or what's a Jew, but regarding whether or not God is faithful & whether or not His Gospel rules over all, is the Governor among the nations, & is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen; whether or not by the Gospel the ages were created, aligned, & adjusted or whether we look for another; whether or not He who began a good work in them will be faithful to complete it 'til the Day of Christ Jesus, same as in us.
This cuts to the very heart of the matter of whether or not we have a Gospel that was born illegitimately or whether His marriage with the Hebrews continues from His rebetrothal to Israel when Lord Jesus was born that's described in the book of Hosea.
If the Jews are not His Chosen people, then Lord Jesus was born illegitimately and God's a fornicator caught in a hypocrisy of the very sin He condemns. What kind of flesh are we to confess that He came in, in 1John, otherwise we're speaking the spirit of AntiChrist according to St. John? What kind of flesh did that Jewish fisherman gone Rabbi by His grace have in mind, if not Jewish in fulfillment of all of the promises given to the Fathers: Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, & their heirs of a national existence, a Messiah with Messianic People, & the world? We're
their inheritance as He is ours & as they are ours! Reread Song of Solomon as Lord Jesus being Solomon, the 60 queens being the Church, the 80 concubines being the nations, & the dark yet lovely bride being introduced with chapter 1 onwards being the Jews & you'll know Father's Heart in the matter.
They search the Scriptures for in them they think they have eternal life, yet they haven't come to Him yet to have that life, so He's vanished on them after having put His Hand thru the door trying to get the chain off of the door while the foolish betrothed one didn't know the time of her Visitation. Her time of Visitation was when He was beating on her door trying to get in, but she knew not the time of her Lord's coming. So they search for coming of Messiah, with some among them, perhaps most, mocking saying "where is the promise of His coming?" while the more devout describe how beautiful the groom is that they see in the Scriptures that's finer to look at than ten thousand & they plead with their own in their own circles to help them find their beloved Groom, seemingly all to no avail as they frantically continue in their Jewish traditions.
But the day is coming when they're going to be caught away to be with us forever & they'll sit with us in the Kingdom of our Father rejoicing in the Gospel that God preached to Abraham as they see Christ Jesus "like a gazelle or like a young stag on the spice-laden mountains" in Revelation 19 when they're finally His, seeing Him in the Scriptures & in us for the first time in their lives & are made to lie down in green pastures by still waters with a table before them in the presence of their enemies as the desire of the wicked perishes & all of their iniquities are subdued & they embrace their book of Isaiah "Great Commission" (chapter 42, etc.) of discipling the nations WITH US.
:cloud9: Beautiful post, Martin. Amen. Come Lord YESHUA, Come. :thumbsup: Blessings....
Acts 9:
18 And immediately fall from his eyes as if scales, and he receives sight. Besides, rising, also, he is baptized,
Quote from: Cardinal on October 28, 2009, 11:13:48 PM
:cloud9: Beautiful post, Martin. Amen. Come Lord YESHUA, Come. :thumbsup: Blessings....
Amen! :thumbsup: RL
Quote from: Molly on October 28, 2009, 09:44:17 PM
One of the saddest statements in the Bible is this--
1 Samuel 8:7
And the LORD said unto Samuel, Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee: for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them.
Yes, sad.
I think the point some are missing is that there are people calling themselves "Jews" who are from all colours and creeds of the world forcing the real inhabitants of a land out because they have declared themselves superior to others (these others being called "human animals")...they are taking these people's land, demolishing their homes, killing their women and children in the most shocking way...and at the end of it they claim that they are the victims...
these same people want to declare their occupied land to be for "Jews only"...discriminating against any other person who is not of their RELIGION (including Christians)...these people have the audacity to demand that other sovereign countries be pre-emptively "nuked to oblivion" because of an unverified nuclear threat, yet they themselves with their cronies poses the biggest threat to world peace with their THOUSANDS and THOUSANDS of nuclear war heads...they accuse other countries of being a threat to world peace when it is only themselves who are making war with other countries...they themselves being accused in international courts of gross war crimes...yet they deny everything
I don't care what you want to call them...call them "Jo's" if you want (descendants of Joseph, which also they're not)...everyone with half a brain can smell the hypocrisy of this "Jewish state" and "nation"
Quote from: noname on October 29, 2009, 10:05:00 AM
I don't care what you want to call them...call them "Jo's" if you want (descendants of Joseph, which also they're not)...everyone with half a brain can smell the hypocrisy of this "Jewish state" and "nation"
Actually people like you are the hypocrites. You critisize violence, but only from the side of those you would like to see eliminated from the earth.
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on October 29, 2009, 03:06:37 PM
Quote from: noname on October 29, 2009, 10:05:00 AM
I don't care what you want to call them...call them "Jo's" if you want (descendants of Joseph, which also they're not)...everyone with half a brain can smell the hypocrisy of this "Jewish state" and "nation"
Actually people like you are the hypocrites. You critisize violence, but only from the side of those you would like to see eliminated from the earth.
smoking that stuff again?
Quote from: noname on October 29, 2009, 04:22:40 PM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on October 29, 2009, 03:06:37 PM
Quote from: noname on October 29, 2009, 10:05:00 AM
I don't care what you want to call them...call them "Jo's" if you want (descendants of Joseph, which also they're not)...everyone with half a brain can smell the hypocrisy of this "Jewish state" and "nation"
Actually people like you are the hypocrites. You critisize violence, but only from the side of those you would like to see eliminated from the earth.
smoking that stuff again?
Did you stop beating your girlfriend yet?
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on October 29, 2009, 04:26:08 PM
Quote from: noname on October 29, 2009, 04:22:40 PM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on October 29, 2009, 03:06:37 PM
Quote from: noname on October 29, 2009, 10:05:00 AM
I don't care what you want to call them...call them "Jo's" if you want (descendants of Joseph, which also they're not)...everyone with half a brain can smell the hypocrisy of this "Jewish state" and "nation"
Actually people like you are the hypocrites. You critisize violence, but only from the side of those you would like to see eliminated from the earth.
smoking that stuff again?
Did you stop beating your girlfriend yet?
paul...you have a problem buddy...when you do not agree with someone's opinion...or even facts presented to you, you get personal and call people names...why bother posting if this is your modus operandi?
the article i posted was not from a jew-hating nazi or as i've heard judge Goldstone being accused of as being a "self-hating jew"...it was from a jewish historian himself...
as for violence...yes i detest it in the strongest sense...ANY violence...but people will defend themselves from an aggressor...especially one coming with an overwhelming force to destroy...
study history yourself to see who these aggressors are/were...be honest with yourself even if these acts are purpotrated by your own government/people/country/race/religious orientation...without admitting our sins we cannot be forgiven, and also it is impossible to forgive others
:cloud9: And you think just because he's Jewish himself, he's not blinded to what God is doing? No one is overlooking anything they do, as they are still carnally minded men, many of them, and they will do the things carnally minded men do; that's a given.
But in the big scheme of things, God is still working all things to HIS pleasure and it was His pleasure to set them there at this time.
Deut 30:3 That then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee. 4 If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee: 5 And the LORD thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers.
So saying that they are not Jews because they are coming from all nations and skin colors is just ridiculous, when HE says HE scattered them there in the first place, knowing they would intermarry among the nations.
What you fail to see is, that THEY WERE SEEDED into the nations, so that He would have mercy upon ALL. This is the root of UR, and the reason it says salvation is of the Jews. Blessings.....
Cardinal, that was quoted out of context. Can you explain to me how this applies to the current state of Israel?
1And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call them to mind among all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath driven thee,
2And shalt return unto the LORD thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul;
3That then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee.
--Deut 30
Do you really think they are obeying the voice of God and turning to him with all their hearts?
:cloud9: I think we're held accountable for what we know, and to the extent that they currently know, I think a portion of them turned their hearts unto the Lord, for this to happen. And again, the timing is now for the fulfillment of all things that He has spoken, and that includes them.
There are also a sizable number of Messianic Jews over there now, too, that have received Him, that no one ever hears about because they are no longer considered Jews by the Jews. Blessings....
I was googling to see what percentage of Israeli's consider themselves atheists/non believer in God [it's pretty high] but I was shocked to see the huge numbers of people all over the world that consider themselves atheists/nonbelievers in terms of percentage. It's as high as 85 percent in Sweden.
Could this be the great falling away?
http://www.adherents.com/largecom/com_atheist.html
2 Thessalonians 2:3
Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
"The abstract at the top of the paper ends with the following sentence: "Finally it considers the one thoroughly secularized country -- East Germany -- and concludes that the 'demand' for religion can be diminished considerably if a ruthless government takes control of the process of religious socialization." "
Quote from: noname on October 29, 2009, 04:57:00 PM
paul...you have a problem buddy...when you do not agree with someone's opinion...or even facts presented to you, you get personal and call people names...why bother posting if this is your modus operandi?
Jesus called people names when it fit, deal with what you are.
Quote from: Molly on October 29, 2009, 06:25:38 PM
I was googling to see what percentage of Israeli's consider themselves atheists/non believer in God [it's pretty high] but I was shocked to see the huge numbers of people all over the world that consider themselves atheists/nonbelievers in terms of percentage. It's as high as 85 percent in Sweden.
Could this be the great falling away?
I think that was thought throughout the ages.
I also think/fear the survey is worthless.
If you simply ask: "Do you believe in God" a Moslim, tree worshipper etc will also answer yes.
So the believers in God quite often believe in the wrong God.
Plus imo believing is some sort of 'activity'. As an explanation everyone that runs to fridge for another six-pack isn't an athlete. I know people that call themself religious because they had child baptism. But besides of that they never pray. Never read anything religious. Everyone is entitled to his/her defenitions but according to mine such people are not religious.
Quote from: noname on October 29, 2009, 04:57:00 PM
study history yourself to see who these aggressors are/were...be honest with yourself even if these acts are purpotrated by your own government/people/country/race/religious orientation...without admitting our sins we cannot be forgiven, and also it is impossible to forgive others
The problem is past names you have called me over our disagreements and is why you are a hypocrit. I posted that the bombing of Japan were justified based upon the times and situations NOT hindsight. I do not care if you disagree with me, but you decide that when you think you are right it is ok for you to make accusations while whining that someone does that to you.
I am not bothered by your accusations I simply am pointing out why your a hypocrit, I condone accusations and that's how I am right now.
You say you detest violence, but then you welcome it from the palestinians because it is justified and it wouldn't bother you if they wiped israel off the planet.
Because whether you like it or not, if they had the means that's exactly what they would do. So rather than see the problem as a whole based upon articles other people have written, you simply will point to an article that explains what the palestinians "really" meant by such a comment. Right.
So long as you support the palestinian cause, your simply a part of the problem. So long as a palestinian killing "women and children" are justified by parrots like you, you are part of the problem of terrorism and the cowardly ways it is justified all over the world.
Quote from: WhiteWings on October 29, 2009, 07:10:47 PM
Quote from: Molly on October 29, 2009, 06:25:38 PM
I was googling to see what percentage of Israeli's consider themselves atheists/non believer in God [it's pretty high] but I was shocked to see the huge numbers of people all over the world that consider themselves atheists/nonbelievers in terms of percentage. It's as high as 85 percent in Sweden.
Could this be the great falling away?
I think that was thought throughout the ages.
I also think/fear the survey is worthless.
If you simply ask: "Do you believe in God" a Moslim, tree worshipper etc will also answer yes.
So the believers in God quite often believe in the wrong God.
Plus imo believing is some sort of 'activity'. As an explanation everyone that runs to fridge for another six-pack isn't an athlete. I know people that call themself religious because they had child baptism. But besides of that they never pray. Never read anything religious. Everyone is entitled to his/her defenitions but according to mine such people are not religious.
I was reading a little more about it--70 plus percent identify themselves as Lutheran--yet up to 85 percent say they are agnostic, nonbelievers, atheists? I wonder what's going on. They also have the 6th highest suicide rate by population in the world. I don't have time to really study this right now but from a cursory point of view things seem to be trending in a certain direction.
I was wondering if you had any insight into what is going on in Europe?
Quote from: Molly on October 29, 2009, 07:40:44 PM
I was reading a little more about it--70 plus percent identify themselves as Lutheran--yet up to 85 percent say they are agnostic, nonbelievers, atheists? I wonder what's going on. They also have the 6th highest suicide rate by population in the world.
And now you think "is it God related."?
Their climate is 'doomy' I think that's of some importance too.
QuoteI don't have time to really study this right now but from a cursory point of view things seem to be trending in a certain direction.
I was wondering if you had any insight into what is going on in Europe?
Jabcat asked that a few weeks ago in another thread. I'll only speak for my own little country. I think Christianity will be wiped out next generation. For now I would add at least 20% to the figures.
I would like to see that survey redone. And add 2 questions. Who is your God? Do you spend more that 15 minutes a week on relgious things. Then I expect much different results.
Quote from: wwTheir climate is 'doomy' I think that's of some importance too.
What do you mean, doomy? You mean no sun? gloomy? I thought of that, too. You would have to look at trends and statistics to see what falls out--if lack of religion adds to suicide rate. It could be done and probably has been done. I'll look for it when I have some time.
Why do you think Europe is turning away from Christianity?
Quote from: Molly on October 29, 2009, 08:00:54 PM
Quote from: wwTheir climate is 'doomy' I think that's of some importance too.
What do you mean, doomy? You mean no sun? I thought of that, too. You would have to look at trends and statistics to see what falls out--if lack of religion adds to suicide rate. It could be done and probably has been done. I'll look for it when I have some time.
With doomy I indeed mean no sun. During hot summers aggresion rises. During 'perfect' weather people seem more happy.
But I would expect the same numbers for all Scandinavian countries. Besides of the weather it are good countries to live in. Stable economy and government and such.
QuoteWhy do you think Europe is turning away from Christianity?
I was speaking for the Netherlands only but expect similar patterns elsewere.
Well I live here so I do notice things... Churches are closing. The few schools with a tiny Christian stamp are infected with muslims. Speaking up for Christianity means your are braindead. Speaking against islam means you are neo-nazi.
Thoughts of no more holiday during Christmas, Easter and a few other days. (I know the roots are pagan but at least most see it as Christian). Again as kneeling for islam.
BTW I can't believe the percentage of atheists is so extremely low in the USA. (You don't wanna know what people here think about the US Bible belt)
Some people think yoga is spiritual....
Playing with fire: UN turns Gaza shelling into theatre
A show about the fate of an aid warehouse has caused controversy in Israel
Rory McCarthy in Jerusalem guardian.co.uk, Thursday 29 October 2009 19.24 GMT
Chris Gunness, chief spokesman for the UN Relief and Works Agency, performs his play. Photograph: Quique Kierszenbaum
There is nothing ordinary about this advocacy campaign for a large UN institution. The lights dim before a packed audience and a slideshow begins: images of Gaza in conflict, people fleeing their homes, buildings on fire.
Then stands Chris Gunness, the chief spokesman of the UN Relief and Works Agency, the organisation responsible for the support and welfare of Palestinian refugees. "I am a warehouse," he says. "I am a dying warehouse, the victim of an excruciatingly painful fire that burned me down."
It is the start of a remarkable 20-minute, one-man play intended for Israeli audiences but so far unwelcome in Israeli theatres. It tells the story of the main UN warehouse in Gaza, a storage point for food and aid for a million Palestinians, and how it was hit repeatedly by Israeli artillery shells, some loaded with white phosphorous, during the Gaza war – how it was set ablaze and burnt to the ground.
This is a story that "until now has remained buried, untold," Gunness said at the debut performance of his show at the French Cultural Centre, east Jerusalem, on Wednesday night.
His play, Building Understanding: Epitaph for a Warehouse, is a challenge to the criticism the UN has faced within Israel. Many aid organisations and human rights groups highlighting the Palestinian cause have faced increasing opposition since the war, as has Richard Goldstone, the South African judge who authored a highly critical UN report accusing Israel and Palestinian militant groups of war crimes.
Some critics, among them the Israeli right and US neoconservatives, regard UNRWA in particular as unfairly and unnecessarily perpetuating the Palestinian refugee issue and their claim to a right of return. The organisation insists it was established by a UN resolution and that it offers vital food, shelter and education to millions of people who would otherwise go without. It says the refugee issue should be resolved as part of a final-status Israeli-Palestinian peace agreement.
Nonetheless, this is an unusual approach for the UN. It began because Gunness, a British former BBC correspondent, was frequently on air during the war highlighting the damage to life and property. That led to an invitation by an Israeli artist to take part in a project about storage space, for which he offered the story of his warehouse.
There were heckles from the Tel Aviv crowd at the first show, of what was an earlier version of the play. About 20 people, out of an audience of around 100, walked out. The script was refined and the play then booked at two Israeli theatres, in Tel Aviv and Haifa. Both later cancelled before the first performance.
Gunness defended his work. "This is about as far away from propaganda as I think you can get," he said. "It is a genuine attempt to tell a story in an apolitical way. We were overly meticulous in making quite sure there was no politics on both sides."
They chose not to include clips of Ban Ki-moon, the UN secretary general, talking about the war and the warehouse.
The centre of what is an unexpectedly compelling performance is the warehouse manager, a phlegmatic Australian UN staffer called Jodie Clark, who was in the compound on the day of the attack. She saw shells land close by her, showering her with concrete. She telephoned the Israeli military to explain that their shells were hitting the UN. In the compound were six trucks, each filled with thousands of litres of fuel. "It took us two hours to convince them they were hitting the UN compound," she said in a video interview during the show.
Her matter-of-fact account is dramatic. She describes how, with a colleague, she ran out as the white phosphorous shells rained down. White phosphorous burns on contact with air, and burns through flesh to the bone. She tried to rescue the trucks, armed only with a fire extinguisher and a wooden stick. "We flicked the white phos out from under the vehicle," she said. The trucks were saved and driven away to safety, sparing a greater fire, but the warehouse was hit and burned to the ground at a cost of more than $10m.
The play was so popular Gunness had to give two showings and book a third for later this week. At the end of the performance, he talks of the "unanswered questions" of why the war unfolded as it did and of the suffering of Gazans and the people of southern Israel, who were targeted by Palestinian rocket attacks. "Until we have answers to these questions the Palestinian people and the people of Israel will continue to live in fear and insecurity," he said.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/oct/29/un-play-on-gaza-shelling
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on October 29, 2009, 07:17:38 PM
Quote from: noname on October 29, 2009, 04:57:00 PM
study history yourself to see who these aggressors are/were...be honest with yourself even if these acts are purpotrated by your own government/people/country/race/religious orientation...without admitting our sins we cannot be forgiven, and also it is impossible to forgive others
The problem is past names you have called me over our disagreements and is why you are a hypocrit. I posted that the bombing of Japan were justified based upon the times and situations NOT hindsight. I do not care if you disagree with me, but you decide that when you think you are right it is ok for you to make accusations while whining that someone does that to you.
I am not bothered by your accusations I simply am pointing out why your a hypocrit, I condone accusations and that's how I am right now.
You say you detest violence, but then you welcome it from the palestinians because it is justified and it wouldn't bother you if they wiped israel off the planet.
Because whether you like it or not, if they had the means that's exactly what they would do. So rather than see the problem as a whole based upon articles other people have written, you simply will point to an article that explains what the palestinians "really" meant by such a comment. Right.
So long as you support the palestinian cause, your simply a part of the problem. So long as a palestinian killing "women and children" are justified by parrots like you, you are part of the problem of terrorism and the cowardly ways it is justified all over the world.
Paul...your ramblings just show that you are just as depraved as the sickos you are vouching for...
we have seen with our own eyes the little children been shot through their hearts by Israeli snipers...what kind of animal puts the crosshairs of his gun over the heart of a little child and pulls the trigger?
we have seen with our own eyes how those murderers dropped the bombs and phosphorous on a civilian population...
we have also seen the depraved people shouting for joy and taking pictures from the hill tops as if this whole massacre in gaza was a circus
we have seen the videos of those depraved soldiers and settlers burning down palestinian olive orchards
we have seen and heard the evidence of old people, women and children being mowed down while carrying white flags
we have seen these depraved people killing ambulance drivers and medical personnel
we have heard the evidence from judge Goldstone (go check his credentials) and compare them to the the murderers
we have seen how your depraved cronies blew up schools, churches (yes, Christian ones), mosques, hospitals, universities, power plants, sewerage plants, olive groves etc etc etc destruction destruction destruction
we have seen your "soldiers" ramsacking people's houses...crapping in their living rooms and smearing the excrement on their walls...writing racist slogans...
we have seen the army t-shirts which shows a pregnant Palestinian woman in the crosshairs of a gun, and the quote "two for the price of one bullet"
I can go on and on and on...but the point is illustrated enough
THIS is your people Paul....look at yourself in the mirror...your people are an abomonation before God and ALL humankind
:cloud9: Correct me if I'm wrong, but it's my understanding that the Guardian is a communist news organization. Blessings....
Quote from: Cardinal on October 30, 2009, 11:58:43 AM
:cloud9: Correct me if I'm wrong, but it's my understanding that the Guardian is a communist news organization. Blessings....
You mean more so than the New York Times? I like the foreign newspapers because they often will report things our own newspapers will not. I thought it was interesting that the UN is now resorting to putting on plays to get through to the Israeli's on why they should not bomb a UN warehouse holding relief supplies for a million refugees, not to mention using white phosophorus which is a war crime.
Even the Russian press is better than ours nowadays. I have seen Russian tv news [on youtube] report on stories that I had first hand knowledge of that our own press didn't even mention.
I would guess that Noname sees a lot of news that we never see.
Here's the telegraph--
Ban Ki-moon demands Israel be held 'accountable' for attack on UN Ban Ki-moon, the United Nations secretary general, has demanded that Israeli troops are held 'accountable' for an attack on a UN compound in Gaza.
By Tim Butcher in Gaza City
Published: 6:25PM GMT
20 Jan 2009Standing in front of the UN compound during a visit to the shattered Palestinian territory, a visibly angry Mr Ban said that he was "heartbroken" by the devastation he witnessed and appalled by the Israeli attack on the UN facility.
"It is an outrageous and totally unacceptable attack on the United Nations," Mr Ban said, the warehouse still smouldering behind him.
"There must be a full investigation, a full explanation to make sure it never happens again. There should be accountability through a proper judiciary system.
"I have protested many times. I am today protesting again in the strongest terms. I have asked [for a] full investigation and [to] make those responsible people accountable."
Israel has claimed it attacked the coumpound because militants were firing rockets from inside. The claim was dismissed as "nonsense" by John Ging, the chief UN official in Gaza.
The compound was hit on Jan 15 by three shells containing white phosphorus, an agent used to create a smoke screen but which burns skin on contact. The resulting fire burnt aid supplies awaiting distribution.
The controversial substance is banned from use in any built-up civilian area under the conventions of war. The smoke it produces cannot be put out with water and UN staff at the Gaza City facility did not have the sand required to quell the blaze.
Mr Ban used the ceasefire begun by Israel unilaterally on Sunday and then accepted by Gaza's Hamas rulers to become the first world leader to visit the Gaza Strip for several years.
He spent just a few hours inside Gaza and after witnessing for himself the extent of some of the Israeli attacks during Operation Cast Lead he criticised Israel for using excessive force.
"I have seen only a fraction of the destruction," he said. "This is shocking and alarming.
"These are heartbreaking scenes I have seen and I am deeply grieved by what I have seen today."
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/israel/4299592/Ban-Ki-moon-demands-Israel-be-held-accountable-for-attack-on-UN.html
Quote from: Molly on October 30, 2009, 12:28:03 PM
I would guess that Noname sees a lot of news that we never see.
True Molly...
Digital satellite TV is a wonderful thing...we have access to CNN, BBC World News, Fox, Sky, RT (Russia Today), Euro News, Al Jazeera, CNBC Africa, E-News, Bloomberg, Summit TV - (all in English) - and our local news channels like News24, SABC, SABC Africa
also, the internet is full of credible news sites...I normally watch/read a few to "find the truth somewhere inbetween"...as some channels would be biased towards a certain part of the world/religion/ethnicity etc...I guess its like religious teachings as well, one need to "learn to discern" :thumbsup:
Quote from: noname on October 30, 2009, 09:13:27 AM
Paul...your ramblings just show that you are just as depraved as the sickos you are vouching for...
No, you just made my point about your hypocrisy.
Quote from: noname on October 30, 2009, 02:22:54 PM
Quote from: Molly on October 30, 2009, 12:28:03 PM
I would guess that Noname sees a lot of news that we never see.
True Molly...
Digital satellite TV is a wonderful thing...we have access to CNN, BBC World News, Fox, Sky, RT (Russia Today), Euro News, Al Jazeera, CNBC Africa, E-News, Bloomberg, Summit TV - (all in English) - and our local news channels like News24, SABC, SABC Africa
also, the internet is full of credible news sites...I normally watch/read a few to "find the truth somewhere inbetween"...as some channels would be biased towards a certain part of the world/religion/ethnicity etc...I guess its like religious teachings as well, one need to "learn to discern" :thumbsup:
wow lol. I didn't mean it quite that way. I was more thinking that because you are in another country, your news is not so heavily censored as ours. Our news is so bland that I have friends who use it to go to sleep. As for the papers, forget it. They are dead letters.
Americans are the most uninformed people in the world.
Quote from: Molly on October 30, 2009, 04:56:43 PMAmericans are the most uninformed people in the world.
Where you got that information? :winkgrin:
News is biased around the globe. Shame many don't even notice it. Here some news isn't even in the news programs...
Quote from: WhiteWings on October 30, 2009, 05:21:13 PM
Quote from: Molly on October 30, 2009, 04:56:43 PMAmericans are the most uninformed people in the world.
Where you got that information? :winkgrin:
News is biased around the globe. Shame many don't even notice it. Here some news isn't even in the news programs...
Yes, I noticed it. You really have to do what noname does--and learn to discern. But if you cover a variety of news sources internationally, you will get a lot more truth than is given to you on NBC[GE].
Also, even in our own news, reporters will sneak things in here and there, so you have to pay attention because you will never see them reported again. We have one commentator now, Glenn Beck on FOX news, who is reporting things that I have never seen before. But, he claims he's getting daily death threats lol.
Quote from: Molly on October 30, 2009, 04:56:43 PM
I was more thinking that because you are in another country, your news is not so heavily censored as ours.
it wasn't always like that...back in the apartheid days the government also fed us with what they thought we should know, and obviously it was a very skewed picture...that's why I can understand that Israelis and Americans are apathetic to what's really going on in the ME...you get a very distorted one-dimensional picture of what life is like outside your countries...and the way other nations and states are portrayed...if its about Africa you'd only ever see the pictures of malnourished children with flies around their eyes...and according to the western media all Arabs and Muslims are running around with AK 47s in their backpockets
QuoteAmericans are the most uninformed people in the world.
it is by design that it is so...especially as America is the biggest warmongering nation on the planet, the "enemy" must be demonised and the republic must look like it's God's gift to the earth...just like Hitler's media army did...and the British before them...and all the other empires before them...the media prepares the people for war, so that they will feel "comfortable" with it...just look back before the Iraq war, and the war in Afghanistan...you'll know what I mean..."if we don't go and take them out, they will come and take us out"...the media use poisoned words like "insurgents", "terrorist", "not in step with the international community"...these kinds of loaded words are always for the enemy...but they call their own wars "just wars"..."wars for freedom or democracy"...yeah right
There was just a program on "The History Channel," carried on cable and satellite. I've been distressed how untrue and antichristian their stuff is. Now, near Holloween they had a segment in a series called, "Underground Cities," about what is underneath specific cities, and a city in Romania was visited for an hour. It was about Vlad Dracul, who is regarded as a national hero there. This program never mentioned who it was that Vlad was fighting, making it seem he was just a cruel ruler over his own people. Never in the whole show were the Moslems mentioned. They mentioned his Father was buried alive and his brother killed, but not who did it. They never mentioned that when Vlad was a teenager, along with his mother and sister, they were chained to trees where they could see each other and the Moslem army raped them for days, killing his mother and sister. He survived. He had a brother, half-brother, or the like (from memory, my books are mostly unpacked) that became a lover of a leader of the Moslem army and worked for him in communicating with Vlad. Well, anyway, none of this found its way into the program. Why no Moslem reference when he was responsible for turning back what had been an ongoing invasion that would've resulting in virtually slavery for the Romanians? Your explanation is a conjectural as mine, though God does shine light on things.
A couple of years ago "Public Television" in the USA created something like a ten hour series, "From Jesus to the Christ" or "From Jesus to God" (I think it was the former) wherein the more extreme unbelieving personages littering Academic theology were the talking heads. The whole thing was calculated to teach that this Israelite radical from the Judean hills, a rabbi and healer was transformed over 500 years into God. This was in order to validate the growing religious bureachracy that was increasingly oppressing people.
These things are not only disturbing, but there seems to be negligible rebuttal. There is so little effective apologetic answering the radicalizing of non-issues or the rewriting of history. What WhiteWings says of his own land seems to be the sort of thing media is pushing here: "Speaking up for Christianity means your are braindead. Speaking against islam means you are neo-nazi."
reFORMer,
He who wins the war writes history.
The killing of the Jews is always linked to Germany. What about Musollini?
And the many muslim leaders shaking hands with Hitler because they like his 'solution'.
:cloud9: And since the flesh wars against the Spirit continually; which is why there is such a concerted effort to kill Jews, and/or Christians, and always by non Spirit filled peoples. My :2c: Blessings....
Quote from: Cardinal on November 03, 2009, 04:41:19 PM
:cloud9: And since the flesh wars against the Spirit continually; which is why there is such a concerted effort to kill Jews, and/or Christians, and always by non Spirit filled peoples. My :2c: Blessings....
That's a big claim you make there Cardinal. Many pacifists are athehist. Or for example buddhist.
:cloud9: I didn't say all non Spirit filled people tried to kill them. I said the ones that DO try, are all non-Spirit filled. Blessings....
I assume those trying to kill Christians/Jews are of another or no religion?
Can/does the spirit fill people of another religion?
:cloud9: No man can say Jesus Christ has come in the flesh (THEIR flesh) except by the power of the Holy Ghost. I LIVED this scripture because 2 weeks I turned to Him as Lord, I myself couldn't say it, had no idea what those around me were talking about. Yet after my conversion, I was shocked to find the answers to the questions of two weeks before came out "yes", instead of "no". Blessings...
Can you rephrase that answer is Chinese or Swahili. Or perhaps English.
I have no clue what that ghostly answer is about.... :wacko2:
That's a Holy Ghostly answer to: I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.
Quote from: WhiteWings on October 29, 2009, 08:13:44 PM
Quote from: Molly on October 29, 2009, 08:00:54 PM
QuoteWhy do you think Europe is turning away from Christianity?
I was speaking for the Netherlands only but expect similar patterns elsewere.
Watch the movie. The first 20 seconds is some advertising.
http://www.dumpert.nl/mediabase/499041/3e792276/fitna_2.html (http://www.dumpert.nl/mediabase/499041/3e792276/fitna_2.html)