Time: A particular portion or part of duration, whether past, present or future. The time was; the time has been; the time is; the time will be.
This is a question and wonder, that has probably been asked before, but new members mean new minds, thoughts, and reasonings.
Main question, Is the Lord[Jehovah] outside of time?
Is He in time?
Was there time before Jehovah?
Will there be time after the Lord is all in all?
Will time exist for the eons?
Does time cease? :HeartThrob:
God is not contained in the Universe. He exists outside of Time and Space, having made both, and matter and energy as well.
In the beginning (TIME), God created the heavens (SPACE) and the earth (MATTER)...and God said, "Let there be light." (ENERGY)
Quote from: Lazarus Short on January 19, 2013, 03:14:21 AM
God is not contained in the Universe. He exists outside of Time and Space, having made both, and matter and energy as well.
In the beginning (TIME), God created the heavens (SPACE) and the earth (MATTER)...and God said, "Let there be light." (ENERGY)
Out side of time? Please explain how He the Lord could b outside of time. Are you saying that the Lord was not in time, in the BEGINNING? Or there was no time when HE began? Jehovah: self Existent.
Time does not exist without matter, hence before creation there was no time. God is inside of and outside of time at the same time :laughing7: Not being corporeal, time has no effect on God
Time...IS....whether there is evidence that WE see, feel, or hear, TIME happens whether we know it or not. Time happens.
I have to say I agree with most everyone else so far has said.. That He exists both outside of and inside of time.. that time exists when matter does.. Which causes me to remember that He has said/promised "behold I make all things new" and "there shall be a new heavens, and a new earth" (matter/universe). I think God created matter and the universe because He wanted to.. I think it's beautiful and glorious. I'm thinking He will remain both inside and outside of 'time'.. I do however think we humans, as totally new creations when we have our new bodies (spiritual bodies) will have a better sense of what perhaps we could call 'the eternal now' (?) and I have a 'secret' belief that more planets will be brought to life by God, a more full universe, if you will.. after all, lots of folks will be resurrected, namely all.. I don't think 'spaceships' will be needed, but even He came "by the river Chebar" on some sort of living platform with four winged creatures with eyes looking in all directions.. (which Elijah saw). But perhaps I am straying from the topic! :laughing7:
Yes, time happens, from the beginning, until the end.
An administration suitable to the fulness(pleroma, completion fulfilling) of times the summing up of all things in Christ........
Before the beginning there was no time (IMO) after the end time will be no more ;o)
God saw the end before the beginning.
Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
(1Pe 1:18-20)
Time is a bubble suspended in the ocean of eterntity. Death and the grave is the skin of the bubble, the veil. Jesus tore a big whole in that skin and now eternity is pouring through- US!
Be lifted up ye gates and Be lifted up Ye everlasting doors! That the king of glory may come in!
Thy will be done on earth(in me) as it is in heaven(in Christ)
Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth(within the bubble), or things in heaven(outside the bubble).
(Col 1:12-20)
:2c:
"Before the beginning there was no time (IMO) after the end time will be no more ;o)"
Then nothing happened before the beginning and nothing will happen after the end? Do I have that correct?
Isa. 57:15 15 For thus says the One high| and lifted| up,
Who tabernacles| the future, and holy is His Name:
QIn1 the high and holy place am I tabernacling,
And also `with one crushed and lowly of spirit,
To revive the spirit of the lowly,
And to revive the heart of the crushed|. (CLT)
For thus saith he that is high and lifed up
Inhabiting futurity, and holy is His name:
A high and holy place swill I inhabit,
Also with the crushed and lowly in spirit,
To revive the spirit of the lowly, and To
revive the heart of them who are crushed; (Rotherham Emp. Bible)
Should and had there been no time, nothing could be done, and if there is no time(at the end), nothing would be been done. Believe this without time, zilch,nada.........nothing. Time did not start and stop with man.
Quote from: micah7:9 on January 19, 2013, 04:35:52 AM
Quote from: Lazarus Short on January 19, 2013, 03:14:21 AM
God is not contained in the Universe. He exists outside of Time and Space, having made both, and matter and energy as well.
In the beginning (TIME), God created the heavens (SPACE) and the earth (MATTER)...and God said, "Let there be light." (ENERGY)
Out side of time? Please explain how He the Lord could b outside of time. Are you saying that the Lord was not in time, in the BEGINNING? Or there was no time when HE began? Jehovah: self Existent.
Outside the box, outside the box!
Jehovah, the Self Existent, the Everliving, the I AM.
Sorry, no boxes with the Lord. :dsunny:
Quote from: micah7:9 on January 19, 2013, 06:28:20 AM
"Before the beginning there was no time (IMO) after the end time will be no more ;o)"
Then nothing happened before the beginning and nothing will happen after the end? Do I have that correct?
Isa. 57:15 15 For thus says the One high| and lifted| up,
Who tabernacles| the future, and holy is His Name:
QIn1 the high and holy place am I tabernacling,
And also `with one crushed and lowly of spirit,
To revive the spirit of the lowly,
And to revive the heart of the crushed|. (CLT)
For thus saith he that is high and lifed up
Inhabiting futurity, and holy is His name:
A high and holy place swill I inhabit,
Also with the crushed and lowly in spirit,
To revive the spirit of the lowly, and To
revive the heart of them who are crushed; (Rotherham Emp. Bible)
Should and had there been no time, nothing could be done, and if there is no time(at the end), nothing would be been done. Believe this without time, zilch,nada.........nothing. Time did not start and stop with man.
I never said time starts and stops with man :o)
I said (IMO) there was no time before the beginning, and there will be no time after the end.
When we read the words, In the Beginning, does it mean, before Jesus? :doh: Before God? :doh: Before creation?
Before the beginning God already was. He stared the beginning as a finite slice of Himself> Creation. He cannot be contained within creation or time. If time always was then there was no beginning. If time had a beginning then it must have an end. "Death(finiteness) is swallowed up by immortality (infiniteness)". The bubble will pop, the veil will be no more evrything will be swallowed into the I AM.
The way I see it, when the times are fulfilled and the last adversary(death) is consumed in the lake of fire and God is all in all, the state of existence will be eternal, olam, other than and transcending time- but if I wake up in the olam to find I was worng about that, I don't think it will disappoint me much HAHAHAHAH
It's about time I tell you I don't have the time to talk about time. :laughing7:
...the way I wrap my mind around it.......all that is temporal..dissolves in time[wears out/comes to nothing]
but in the eternal/immortal/finished realm...time dissolves.into it.
Works for me :o)
:laugh: well...He DID say He put eternity in our hearts..He didn't say..our brains could fathom it!! LOL!
Isnt that beautiful? Our brain will never have its desired pre-eminece, because the heart will always have all the answers to the unanswerable questions.
HAHAHAHA WHAT IRONY!
The brain says, "I can figure stuff out and I am higher up than the rest of y'all". The heart says, "Yea, but I hold all the keys to all the gates and evry secret worth unveiling is hidden in me". :laughing7:
:laugh:..ANIN'T THAT THE TRUTH!
What you say is nothing happened before the beginning and nothing will happen at the end? So, after the great and last judgement at the throne, when it is all over and God is all in all, nothing will happen or be. Do I understand that correctly?
"When we read the words, In the Beginning, does it mean, before Jesus? Before God? Before creation?"
Beginning, Gen. 1 ray-sheeth' the first, in place, time, order or rank (specifically a firstfruit): - beginning, chief (-est), first (-fruits, part, time), principal thing.
1Co 15:23 and each in his proper order, a first-fruit Christ, afterwards those who are the Christ's, in his presence,
Col 1:17 and himself is before all, and the all things in him have consisted.
Here is the beginning, Jesus Christ.
Jehovah means existing one; EXIST', v.i. egzist'. [L. existo; ex and sisto, or more directly from Gr. to set, place or fix; L. sto, to stand. The primary sense is to set, fix or be fixed, whence the sense of permanence, continuance.]
There was time before, or The Existing One-Jehovah, could not have been. Jehovah WAS so there had to be time, the Lord(Jehovah) IS so there is time. Jehovah(Lord) WILL BE so there must be time. I AM
H1961
A primitive root (compare H1933); to exist, that is, be or become, come to pass (always emphatic, and not a mere copula or auxiliary): - beacon, X altogether, be (-come, accomplished, committed, like), break, cause, come (to pass), continue, do, faint, fall, + follow, happen, X have, last, pertain, quit (one-) self, require, X use.
Without time nothing happens. Again Isa. 57:15 15 For thus says the One high| and lifted| up,
Who tabernacles| the future,
Future
FU'TURE, a. [L. futurus.] That is to be or come hereafter; that will exist at any time after the present, indefinitely. The next moment is future to the present.
1. The future tense, in grammar, is the modification of a verb which expresses a future act or event.
FU'TURE, n. Time to come; a time subsequent to the present; as, the future shall be as the present; in future; for the future. In such phrases, time or season is implied.
IMO. time is dependent on matter. If there is matter, there is time.
God being spiritual, immaterial, or "not matter" is outside of time and not dependent upon it.
That's why God already "WAS in the beginning" - he was before time.
With creation, time began.
If and when there is no matter in the universe at all, (and I'm not sure if this will occur or not) then
at that time, time will end. But US, being IN GOD will continue on in the selfexistent one.
...and it may be that God will start all over again with a new universe, I surely do not know...yet :laughing7:
Quote from: ded2daworld on January 19, 2013, 07:22:06 PM
IMO. time is dependent on matter. If there is matter, there is time.
God being spiritual, immaterial, or "not matter" is outside of time and not dependent upon it.
That's why God already "WAS in the beginning" - he was before time.
With creation, time began.
If and when there is no matter in the universe at all, (and I'm not sure if this will occur or not) then
at that time, time will end. But US, being IN GOD will continue on in the selfexistent one.
...and it may be that God will start all over again with a new universe, I surely do not know...yet :laughing7:
How can you "exist" before time? How can anything "exist" without time? Time: in its original sense, opportunity, occasion, a fall,
an event, that which comes.]1.
A particular portion or part of duration, whether past, present or future. The time was; the time has been; the time is; the time will be.
Of course even though words mean what they mean, it is in my opinion, if there is no time, NOTHING happens. :gimmefive:
IMO, God existed before time. You're asking, in a sense, how could anything exist before the universe?
Surely, since God created EVERYTHING - it follows that time was created when the universe was created.
Time is merely a measurement on the linear continuum put in place by God at creation.
Einstein proved that time runs at different speeds in different locations(Bottom of the sea as opposed to top of the mountain) and is affected by gravity. If no matter, there is no gravity or attraction and therefore no time. so it isn't just an abstract. If real, it was created, and started by the creator in the beginning. It follows the laws of physics which were given by the Lawgiver.
Quote from: micah7:9 on January 19, 2013, 02:48:22 AM
Time: A particular portion or part of duration, whether past, present or future. The time was; the time has been; the time is; the time will be.
This is a question and wonder, that has probably been asked before, but new members mean new minds, thoughts, and reasonings.
Main question, Is the Lord[Jehovah] outside of time?
Is He in time?
Was there time before Jehovah?
Will there be time after the Lord is all in all?
Will time exist for the eons?
Does time cease? :HeartThrob:
Hi Micah,
This is just the way I see this at this time, I have changed my mind before. I think Jesus was the beginning of time because he said "I am the beginning and the end, the FIRST and LAST". So, it seems that time will end at some point.
CHB
Quote from: micah7:9 on January 19, 2013, 08:17:19 PM
Quote from: ded2daworld on January 19, 2013, 07:22:06 PM
IMO. time is dependent on matter. If there is matter, there is time.
God being spiritual, immaterial, or "not matter" is outside of time and not dependent upon it.
That's why God already "WAS in the beginning" - he was before time.
With creation, time began.
If and when there is no matter in the universe at all, (and I'm not sure if this will occur or not) then
at that time, time will end. But US, being IN GOD will continue on in the selfexistent one.
...and it may be that God will start all over again with a new universe, I surely do not know...yet :laughing7:
How can you "exist" before time? How can anything "exist" without time? Time: in its original sense, opportunity, occasion, a fall, an event, that which comes.]
1. A particular portion or part of duration, whether past, present or future. The time was; the time has been; the time is; the time will be.
Of course even though words mean what they mean, it is in my opinion, if there is no time, NOTHING happens. :gimmefive:
That would make time superior to the being of God. IMO, The I AM is the I AM regardless of time.
I think EW and I are in agreement .
The creation is definitely subject to and operates in accordance with the will of the creator.
Since ALL things were created, time is included as a part of creation and in no way have anything "over" on the creator.
Quote from: micah7:9 on January 19, 2013, 05:54:23 AM
Time...IS....whether there is evidence that WE see, feel, or hear, TIME happens whether we know it or not. Time happens.
Time both is ... and happens? Could you explain that a bit further?
Quote from: eaglesway on January 19, 2013, 06:06:38 AM
Before the beginning there was no time (IMO) after the end time will be no more ;o)
You know, if you think about that logically, it's really hard for that statement not to be true.
Quote from: micah7:9 on January 19, 2013, 06:46:30 PM
What you say is nothing happened before the beginning and nothing will happen at the end?
I think that should be nothing will happen
after the end.
Quote from: ded2daworld on January 19, 2013, 07:22:06 PM
...and it may be that God will start all over again with a new universe, I surely do not know...yet :laughing7:
That's okay Ded, give it time.
Quote from: micah7:9 on January 19, 2013, 08:17:19 PM
Of course even though words mean what they mean, it is in my opinion, if there is no time, NOTHING happens. :gimmefive:
So Eternity is like weekends at my house.
HAHAHA
Quote from: VineBranch on January 20, 2013, 10:24:59 PM
Quote from: micah7:9 on January 19, 2013, 08:17:19 PM
Of course even though words mean what they mean, it is in my opinion, if there is no time, NOTHING happens. :gimmefive:
So Eternity is like weekends at my house.
No I mean if there is no time, NOTHING happens.
Quote from: micah7:9 on January 21, 2013, 07:51:04 AM
Quote from: VineBranch on January 20, 2013, 10:24:59 PM
Quote from: micah7:9 on January 19, 2013, 08:17:19 PM
Of course even though words mean what they mean, it is in my opinion, if there is no time, NOTHING happens. :gimmefive:
So Eternity is like weekends at my house.
No I mean if there is no time, NOTHING happens.
have you been at my house during weekends?
I got your edgy point! :LH: :dsunny:
hey,Micah my bro.....it's called rest....spiritual rest..where we rest with God in His spiritual work of perfection that He has
accomplished. No more punching that old time clock :icon_jokercolor:
Yes, Sheila I understand, I believe at some time we will rest(repose, take ease, no more punching that old time clock) in the Lord, but He has no need of rest He is Jehovah-the EXISTING ONE (self Existent)
EXIST to stand. The primary sense is to set, fix or be fixed, whence the sense of permanence, continuance.]
Isa 57:15 For thus said the high and exalted One, Inhabiting eternity,....
Eternity H5703 properly a (peremptory) terminus, that is, (by implication) duration, in the sense of perpetuity (substantially as a noun, either with or without a preposition): - eternity, ever (-lasting, -more), old, perpetually, + world without end.
From H5710 A primitive root; to advance, that is, pass on or continue;
Nothing can happen without time.... 1. A particular portion or part of duration, whether past, present or future. The time was; the time has been; the time is; the time will be.
Time has come today...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ORRJJSoendU
but for Those Who (Really) Love:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YKHhpzFSKOg&playnext=1&list=PLD30BEC997FF9078A&feature=results_video
Thanks. That time I went through some time ago. :dsunny:
Quote from: eaglesway on January 19, 2013, 06:06:38 AM
Yes, time happens, from the beginning, until the end.
Before the beginning there was no time (IMO) after the end time will be no more ;o)
:2c:
Yes, but it's interesting to note that most people come at this concept entirely backwards.
You're right on about time being a created
'physical' phenomenon consisting of past, present, and future; just as the natural man is a created
'physical' phenomenon that grows in a linear manner (i.e. - being young, middle aged, and then old). Eternity however, is a
"changeless" state of being; when
HE, who
'IS' ETERNITY, becomes
all-in-all within us, and we also are in our changeless, eternal condition in the SPIRIT, and everything physical
(corruptible - including TIME itself) is no more.
But what confuses people is the fact that time does not come out of the past...
it comes out of the future. And time does not flow into the future... it flows into the past. Because mankind and his history come into the present out of the past, we have the innate tendency to think that time follows the same order. But it is not. Time goes the other way. Mankind and his history comes to us out of the past, but time comes to us
OUT OF THE FUTURE. We do not go with time. The present is always instantaneous, because we do not go with it, we constantly meet it, moving from past to future while time proceeds from future to past. This is the procession of time.
The future is the source out of which the present comes to us, not the past. In fact, the future is the source of
both the present and the past, because the past in turn comes from the present, and the present comes to us from the future.
Think about starlight from distant stars. We have all gazed into the sky and have seen a bright red star in the sky named Betelgeuse, in the constellation of Orion. It takes
600 years for the light from Betelgeuse to reach our eyes here on Earth. But the light we see now is meaningless, because we are only seeing what that star looked like 600 years ago, in 1413 A.D., almost 80 years before Columbus reached the New World. That is because the light from Betelgeuse has taken 600 years to reach us here on Earth. Betelgeuse could burn out and disappear tomorrow afternoon, but we wouldn't know about it for 600 years. Who knows, it might have already burned out 599 years ago, but we won't know about it until next year.
This illustrates the fact that time
does not come out of the past...
it comes out of the future. The future is the source, and
"the beginning of time" is actually in
the future, not the past.
:laughing7:
Yes, young physics majors don't go out on the town looking for dates on Friday nights. They sit in the middle of the living room floor
'Indian Style' and deeply meditate upon these things after a night of :beerburp:
Quote from: eaglesway on January 19, 2013, 06:06:38 AM
Time is a bubble suspended in the ocean of eterntity. Death and the grave is the skin of the bubble, the veil. Jesus tore a big whole in that skin and now eternity is pouring through- US!
:2c:
Excellent analogy! :thumbsup:
I wondered, at one point, If -in regards to creation, the first thought of God was the Lamb slain (you know,revelations- Lamb slain from the foundation of the world)
The Lamb, being the Logos, i.e. the Seed.
The entire tree with all its roots, trunk, limbs and leaves are hidden within the seed.
In that case, as the Alpha and the Omega, all that is was conceived in the mind of God in Christ the firstborn of creation- thus, the foundation of the world.
All things were conceived within the idea of a revelation of Himself to a creation chosen for fellowship in and with Him- a creation released to chaos through the self life, but redeemed into harmony through the sacrifice of Christ- which is IN ITSELF THE FULL REVELATION OF THE LOVE OF GOD AS A SEED.
Hence, I am determined to kno nothing else among you but Christ and Him crucified.
I like the idea of time proceeding from the future, because it explains the idea of being foreknown and predestined according to the foreknowledge of God.
But I also entertain the possibility that the SEED from which evrything else(time, cosmos, beings, the physical universe) proceeds, call it the "pinnacle" of the pyramid or the "exact center" or the sphere, is the crucifixion of Christ.
From that point of view, to me, Genesis 1 and John 1 harmonize beautifully,
In the midst of the chaos, the spirit hovers over the waters, the waters are without form and void, but like negative and positive ions collecting between the earth and the heavens, the God of Glory thunders, "Let there be light!" and the lightning flashes as the Lamb proclaims, "Father forgive them they dont know what they are doing" and the matrix of love infects the chaos below as the body of Christ is entombed, until, having reached into the core of ALL TIME AND BEING AND EXISTENCE(as the manifestation of the first thought of God,the seed) - the viral outbreak of "Newness of Life" begins to spread through the entire creation like a measure of leaven in three bushels of dough until the whole is leavened.
"Behold I am making all things new"
"Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you"
"Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages(apex) He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. "
"For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now."
"Yet once more will I shake the heavens and earth until only that which cannot be shaken remains"
"But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements(foundations) will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up". "Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat! But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells".
It is written that His eyes are as flames of fire, and the eye is the light of the soul, and our God is a consuming fire - perhaps the fire of the sacrifice of Christ is consuming away the "elemental principles/foundations" of the earth/chaos and creating a new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells"Let there be light"(sacrificial love as a founding principle).
This is the light that lights every man that comes into the world, and the light shies in the darkness and the darkness cannot overcome it.
No greater love has a man than to lay down his life for his friends.
Quote from: eaglesway on January 21, 2013, 11:49:52 PM
I wondered, at one point, If -in regards to creation, the first thought of God was the Lamb slain (you know,revelations- Lamb slain from the foundation of the world)
The Lamb, being the Logos, i.e. the Seed.
The entire tree with all its roots, trunk, limbs and leaves are hidden within the seed.
In that case, as the Alpha and the Omega, all that is was conceived in the mind of God in Christ the firstborn of creation- thus, the foundation of the world.
All things were conceived within the idea of a revelation of Himself to a creation chosen for fellowship in and with Him- a creation released to chaos through the self life, but redeemed into harmony through the sacrifice of Christ- which is IN ITSELF THE FULL REVELATION OF THE LOVE OF GOD AS A SEED.
Hence, I am determined to kno nothing else among you but Christ and Him crucified.
I like the idea of time proceeding from the future, because it explains the idea of being foreknown and predestined according to the foreknowledge of God.
But I also entertain the possibility that the SEED from which evrything else(time, cosmos, beings, the physical universe) proceeds, call it the "pinnacle" of the pyramid or the "exact center" or the sphere, is the crucifixion of Christ.
From that point of view, to me, Genesis 1 and John 1 harmonize beautifully,
In the midst of the chaos, the spirit hovers over the waters, the waters are without form and void, but like negative and positive ions collecting between the earth and the heavens, the God of Glory thunders, "Let there be light!" and the lightning flashes as the Lamb proclaims, "Father forgive them they dont know what they are doing" and the matrix of love infects the chaos below as the body of Christ is entombed, until, having reached into the core of ALL TIME AND BEING AND EXISTENCE(as the manifestation of the first thought of God,the seed) - the viral outbreak of "Newness of Life" begins to spread through the entire creation like a measure of leaven in three bushels of dough until the whole is leavened.
"Behold I am making all things new"
"Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you"
"Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages(apex) He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. "
"For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now."
"Yet once more will I shake the heavens and earth until only that which cannot be shaken remains"
"But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements(foundations) will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up". "Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat! But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells".
It is written that His eyes are as flames of fire, and the eye is the light of the soul, and our God is a consuming fire - perhaps the fire of the sacrifice of Christ is consuming away the "elemental principles/foundations" of the earth/chaos and creating a new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells"Let there be light"(sacrificial love as a founding principle).
This is the light that lights every man that comes into the world, and the light shies in the darkness and the darkness cannot overcome it.
No greater love has a man than to lay down his life for his friends.
Yes, the cross took place at 4000 years. If 7000 years is a cycle, then it is the center point of time in that cycle.
Cardinal spoke of a vision she had that all things extend out from the cross, past and future.
I've got a post I was working on that was speaking about a lot of what you're saying, in relation to Gen 1 and 2 being separate accounts. Hopefully I can have it done fairly soon.
Quote from: Illuin on January 21, 2013, 09:34:12 PM
Quote from: eaglesway on January 19, 2013, 06:06:38 AM
Yes, time happens, from the beginning, until the end.
Before the beginning there was no time (IMO) after the end time will be no more ;o)
:2c:
Yes, but it's interesting to note that most people come at this concept entirely backwards.
You're right on about time being a created 'physical' phenomenon consisting of past, present, and future; just as the natural man is a created 'physical' phenomenon that grows in a linear manner (i.e. - being young, middle aged, and then old). Eternity however, is a "changeless" state of being; when HE, who 'IS' ETERNITY, becomes all-in-all within us, and we also are in our changeless, eternal condition in the SPIRIT, and everything physical (corruptible - including TIME itself) is no more.
But what confuses people is the fact that time does not come out of the past... it comes out of the future. And time does not flow into the future... it flows into the past. Because mankind and his history come into the present out of the past, we have the innate tendency to think that time follows the same order. But it is not. Time goes the other way. Mankind and his history comes to us out of the past, but time comes to us OUT OF THE FUTURE. We do not go with time. The present is always instantaneous, because we do not go with it, we constantly meet it, moving from past to future while time proceeds from future to past. This is the procession of time. The future is the source out of which the present comes to us, not the past. In fact, the future is the source of both the present and the past, because the past in turn comes from the present, and the present comes to us from the future.
Think about starlight from distant stars. We have all gazed into the sky and have seen a bright red star in the sky named Betelgeuse, in the constellation of Orion. It takes 600 years for the light from Betelgeuse to reach our eyes here on Earth. But the light we see now is meaningless, because we are only seeing what that star looked like 600 years ago, in 1413 A.D., almost 80 years before Columbus reached the New World. That is because the light from Betelgeuse has taken 600 years to reach us here on Earth. Betelgeuse could burn out and disappear tomorrow afternoon, but we wouldn't know about it for 600 years. Who knows, it might have already burned out 599 years ago, but we won't know about it until next year.
This illustrates the fact that time does not come out of the past... it comes out of the future. The future is the source, and "the beginning of time" is actually in the future, not the past.
:laughing7:
Yes, young physics majors don't go out on the town looking for dates on Friday nights. They sit in the middle of the living room floor 'Indian Style' and deeply meditate upon these things after a night of :beerburp:
Quote from: eaglesway on January 19, 2013, 06:06:38 AM
Time is a bubble suspended in the ocean of eterntity. Death and the grave is the skin of the bubble, the veil. Jesus tore a big whole in that skin and now eternity is pouring through- US!
:2c:
Excellent analogy! :thumbsup:
That is SO profound. Travel in space is much like travel in time - the "future" of your journey comes toward you, even though you are moving ahead. I walk a lot, and do some of my best thinking while walking. I notice that as I walk forward, the scenery comes toward me, and falls behind. You walk, the scenery walks. Time, however, does this without any effort on our part.
Quote from: Illuin on January 21, 2013, 09:34:12 PM
But what confuses people is the fact that time does not come out of the past... it comes out of the future. And time does not flow into the future... it flows into the past. Because mankind and his history come into the present out of the past, we have the innate tendency to think that time follows the same order. But it is not. Time goes the other way. Mankind and his history comes to us out of the past, but time comes to us OUT OF THE FUTURE. We do not go with time. The present is always instantaneous, because we do not go with it, we constantly meet it, moving from past to future while time proceeds from future to past. This is the procession of time. The future is the source out of which the present comes to us, not the past. In fact, the future is the source of both the present and the past, because the past in turn comes from the present, and the present comes to us from the future.
I don't see any proof here. Didn't you just dump all over Eagle and tell him to stick to scripture? Can you prove the river flows that way. God rearranged social time when He sent Abraham out to make social and historical time linear from it's circular origins: does He have to believe you? Do I? If time flows from the future, then the origin of the flow lies in the future. If the origin is in the future you just used a time based before/after analogy to show me something which can't exist as a definition until it is assumed to exist.
Time is a property of matter. Matter is being propelled into the future. Are you saying a property of mater can exist with out mater until mater gets there? Surely not.
Quote from: Illuin on January 21, 2013, 09:34:12 PM
This illustrates the fact that time does not come out of the past... it comes out of the future. The future is the source, and "the beginning of time" is actually in the future, not the past.
I think actually your examples prove the opposite.
In my very humble opinion, 'flow' is about the worst metaphor a temporal physicist can use.
Quote from: VineBranch on January 22, 2013, 02:42:17 AM
Quote from: Illuin on January 21, 2013, 09:34:12 PM
But what confuses people is the fact that time does not come out of the past... it comes out of the future. And time does not flow into the future... it flows into the past. Because mankind and his history come into the present out of the past, we have the innate tendency to think that time follows the same order. But it is not. Time goes the other way. Mankind and his history comes to us out of the past, but time comes to us OUT OF THE FUTURE. We do not go with time. The present is always instantaneous, because we do not go with it, we constantly meet it, moving from past to future while time proceeds from future to past. This is the procession of time. The future is the source out of which the present comes to us, not the past. In fact, the future is the source of both the present and the past, because the past in turn comes from the present, and the present comes to us from the future.
I don't see any proof here. Didn't you just dump all over Eagle and tell him to stick to scripture? Can you prove the river flows that way. God rearranged social time when He sent Abraham out to make social and historical time linear from it's circular origins: does He have to believe you? Do I? If time flows from the future, then the origin of the flow lies in the future. If the origin is in the future you just used a time based before/after analogy to show me something which can't exist as a definition until it is assumed to exist.
Time is a property of matter. Matter is being propelled into the future. Are you saying a property of mater can exist with out mater until mater gets there? Surely not.
Quote from: Illuin on January 21, 2013, 09:34:12 PM
This illustrates the fact that time does not come out of the past... it comes out of the future. The future is the source, and "the beginning of time" is actually in the future, not the past.
I think actually your examples prove the opposite.
In my very humble opinion, 'flow' is about the worst metaphor a temporal physicist can use.
The future is
the source out of which the present comes to us. This is a fundamental
"law of physics" that is not open for speculation or debate, though it may not tickle the ears of those who like to remain in their comfort zone. God's
laws are just as equally valid in the realm of physics as they are in Scripture. The
"law" of
"Gravity" is one of God's
"laws." If you jump from a building, you're going down. The
"law" of
"Thermodynamics" is one of God's
"laws." Time proceeding from the future to the past is a
"law" of physics, thus, a
"law" of God.
Eaglesway has provided some very insightful Scripture highlighting the doctrinal importance of this phenomenon in his previous post.
The reason so many false doctrines exist is because people would rather speculate and remain content within their comfort zone, rather than digging deeper to learn the facts, both Scripturally and scientifically. For example, if one is going to teach another concerning the meaning and doctrinal associations concerning the concept of
"the ages" (aions) and
"eternity" (athanasia = immortality), and report this information to others accurately, one must learn all the facts, and not just say what to them;
"sounds" good. It was the false doctrines of the apostate Church that caused the meaning
"eternal" to be placed upon the modern Greek phrase
"the ages of the ages." Why? speculation, presumption, and not knowing the facts, both Scripturally and scientifically. Thus, we have the blasphemous doctrine of eternal torment that enslaves the masses because of such carelessness.
A concept we must immediately grasp in order to understand God's plan of the ages, and then report this truth to others, is that time is a created
"physical" phenomena that has nothing to do with
"eternal life." Time and space are interdependent, and are inseparably related. There is no space without time, and no time without space. Space cannot be traversed without the passage of time; and without the passage of time, there is no traversing of space. That is why in His post-resurrection, spiritual body, Jesus was able immediately to transcend and traverse time and space with the
speed of thought.
ETERNITY is a state of
absolute timelessness (
absence of time),
not of
unending time, where time still exists, but is unending.
Eternity is a STATE OF BEING, which resides ONLY in the
nature and PERSON OF GOD.
"Physical" phenomenon such as past, present, future, before, after, entropy, change, transition, decay, etc. do not exist at ALL! Speculation and not knowing the facts has led to the doctrines of demons that permeate the Church. One of the primary culprits has to do with the grave misunderstanding of the little word
"aion" and how it differs from the
"state of being" known as
"eternity." This is why is it critical to have
a thorough understanding of 'TIME' and all of it's properties, and not speculate on such matters.
Oops, wrong button.
Quote from: Lazarus Short on January 22, 2013, 01:40:50 AM
Quote from: Illuin on January 21, 2013, 09:34:12 PM
Quote from: eaglesway on January 19, 2013, 06:06:38 AM
Yes, time happens, from the beginning, until the end.
Before the beginning there was no time (IMO) after the end time will be no more ;o)
:2c:
Yes, but it's interesting to note that most people come at this concept entirely backwards.
You're right on about time being a created 'physical' phenomenon consisting of past, present, and future; just as the natural man is a created 'physical' phenomenon that grows in a linear manner (i.e. - being young, middle aged, and then old). Eternity however, is a "changeless" state of being; when HE, who 'IS' ETERNITY, becomes all-in-all within us, and we also are in our changeless, eternal condition in the SPIRIT, and everything physical (corruptible - including TIME itself) is no more.
But what confuses people is the fact that time does not come out of the past... it comes out of the future. And time does not flow into the future... it flows into the past. Because mankind and his history come into the present out of the past, we have the innate tendency to think that time follows the same order. But it is not. Time goes the other way. Mankind and his history comes to us out of the past, but time comes to us OUT OF THE FUTURE. We do not go with time. The present is always instantaneous, because we do not go with it, we constantly meet it, moving from past to future while time proceeds from future to past. This is the procession of time. The future is the source out of which the present comes to us, not the past. In fact, the future is the source of both the present and the past, because the past in turn comes from the present, and the present comes to us from the future.
Think about starlight from distant stars. We have all gazed into the sky and have seen a bright red star in the sky named Betelgeuse, in the constellation of Orion. It takes 600 years for the light from Betelgeuse to reach our eyes here on Earth. But the light we see now is meaningless, because we are only seeing what that star looked like 600 years ago, in 1413 A.D., almost 80 years before Columbus reached the New World. That is because the light from Betelgeuse has taken 600 years to reach us here on Earth. Betelgeuse could burn out and disappear tomorrow afternoon, but we wouldn't know about it for 600 years. Who knows, it might have already burned out 599 years ago, but we won't know about it until next year.
This illustrates the fact that time does not come out of the past... it comes out of the future. The future is the source, and "the beginning of time" is actually in the future, not the past.
:laughing7:
Yes, young physics majors don't go out on the town looking for dates on Friday nights. They sit in the middle of the living room floor 'Indian Style' and deeply meditate upon these things after a night of :beerburp:
Quote from: eaglesway on January 19, 2013, 06:06:38 AM
Time is a bubble suspended in the ocean of eterntity. Death and the grave is the skin of the bubble, the veil. Jesus tore a big whole in that skin and now eternity is pouring through- US!
:2c:
Excellent analogy! :thumbsup:
That is SO profound. Travel in space is much like travel in time - the "future" of your journey comes toward you, even though you are moving ahead. I walk a lot, and do some of my best thinking while walking. I notice that as I walk forward, the scenery comes toward me, and falls behind. You walk, the scenery walks. Time, however, does this without any effort on our part.
Yes, you got it! Great analogy.... even when you're walking backwards :winkgrin:
Quote from: Illuin on January 22, 2013, 04:24:48 AM
Quote from: VineBranch on January 22, 2013, 02:42:17 AM
Quote from: Illuin on January 21, 2013, 09:34:12 PM
But what confuses people is the fact that time does not come out of the past... it comes out of the future. And time does not flow into the future... it flows into the past. Because mankind and his history come into the present out of the past, we have the innate tendency to think that time follows the same order. But it is not. Time goes the other way. Mankind and his history comes to us out of the past, but time comes to us OUT OF THE FUTURE. We do not go with time. The present is always instantaneous, because we do not go with it, we constantly meet it, moving from past to future while time proceeds from future to past. This is the procession of time. The future is the source out of which the present comes to us, not the past. In fact, the future is the source of both the present and the past, because the past in turn comes from the present, and the present comes to us from the future.
I don't see any proof here. Didn't you just dump all over Eagle and tell him to stick to scripture? Can you prove the river flows that way. God rearranged social time when He sent Abraham out to make social and historical time linear from it's circular origins: does He have to believe you? Do I? If time flows from the future, then the origin of the flow lies in the future. If the origin is in the future you just used a time based before/after analogy to show me something which can't exist as a definition until it is assumed to exist.
Time is a property of matter. Matter is being propelled into the future. Are you saying a property of mater can exist with out mater until mater gets there? Surely not.
Quote from: Illuin on January 21, 2013, 09:34:12 PM
This illustrates the fact that time does not come out of the past... it comes out of the future. The future is the source, and "the beginning of time" is actually in the future, not the past.
I think actually your examples prove the opposite.
In my very humble opinion, 'flow' is about the worst metaphor a temporal physicist can use.
The future is the source out of which the present comes to us. This is a fundamental "law of physics" that is not open for speculation, though it may not tickle the ears of those who like to remain in their comfort zone. God's laws are equally valid in the realm of physics as they are in Scripture. The "law" of "Gravity" is one of God's "laws." If you jump from a building, you're going down. The "law" of "Thermodynamics" is one of God's "laws." Time proceeding from the future to the past is a "law" of physics, thus, a "law" of God. Eaglesway has provided some very insightful Scripture highlighting the doctrinal importance of this phenomenon.
The reason so many false doctrines exist is because people would rather speculate and remain in their comfort zone, rather than digging deep and learning the facts, both Scripturally and scientifically. For example, if one is going to teach another concerning the meaning and doctrinal ramifications concerning the concept of "the ages" (aions) and "eternity" (athanasia = immortality), and report this information to others accurately, one must learn all the facts, and not just say what to them; "sounds" good. It was the false doctrines of the apostate Church that caused the meaning "eternal" to be placed upon the modern Greek phrase "the ages of the ages." Why? speculation, presumption, and not knowing the facts, both Scripturally and scientifically. Thus, we have the blasphemous doctrine of eternal torment because of such carelessness.
A concept we must immediately grasp in order to understand God's plan of the ages, and then report this truth to others, is that time is a created "physical" phenomena that has nothing to do with "eternal life." Time and space are interdependent, and are inseparably related. There is no space without time, and no time without space. Space cannot be traversed without the passage of time; and without the passage of time, there is no traversing of space. That is why in His post-resurrection, spiritual body, Jesus was able immediately to transcend and traverse time and space with the speed of thought.
ETERNITY is a state of absolute timelessness (absence of time), not of unending time, where time still exists, but is unending. Eternity is a STATE OF BEING, which resides ONLY in the nature and person of God. "Physical" phenomenon such as past, present, future, before, after, entropy, change, transition, decay, etc. do not exist at ALL! Speculation and not knowing the facts has led to the doctrines of demons that permeate the Church. One of the primary culprits has to do with the grave misunderstanding of the little word "aion" and how it differs from the "state of being" known as "eternity." This is why is it critical to have a thorough understanding of time and all of it's properties, and not speculate on such matters.
Just the thought of Physics and anything to do with maths makes me want to break out into a full blown anxiety attack :faint:, but thank you for breaking this down into something I can comprehend :thumbsup: :dbook:
8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
--Rev 1
God places himself right smack dab in the middle of time. He calls himself the beginning and the end [note:beginning comes first]. He expresses this in terms of the building blocks of language, the alpha [a] and the omega [z] instead of in minutes.
So time is happening within God and is expressed in terms of his word.
World without end!
Again,
I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say: My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please.
declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, 'My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose,'
--Isaiah 46:10
Note he is declaring the end from the beginning. He is not declaring the beginning from the end except in the sense that he has a purpose and that is where it will end, no matter how it begins.
And, the highest point of time is now. He starts with 'is.' [which is, and which was, and which is to come]. Past and present frame the moment. Eternity is found in the now, in the moment, in the minutest detail of the word.
For those of us living in eternity, it is always NOW
Tell the children of Israel, I AM has sent me to you.
--Ex 3:14
Molly, what IS eternity? See Isa_57:15 cause that's about all your gonna find in the Bible about eternity, as far as I could find.
It says, He is "the eternal God."
"eternal"
H6924
קדמה קדם
qedem qêdmâh
keh'-dem, kayd'-maw
From H6923; the front, of place (absolutely the fore part, relatively the East) or time (antiquity); often used adverbially (before, anciently, eastward): - aforetime, ancient (time), before, east (end, part, side, -ward), eternal, X ever (-lasting), forward, old, past. Compare H6926.
In other words, he is the first in place and time.
It says, He "inhabits eternity."
"eternity"
H5703
עד
‛ad
ad
From H5710; properly a (peremptory) terminus, that is, (by implication) duration, in the sense of perpetuity (substantially as a noun, either with or without a preposition): - eternity, ever (-lasting, -more), old, perpetually, + world without end.
Who has known the mind of the Lord (Your pea brain cannot fathom most of what God thinks :Chinscratch: )
Who has been His counselor (If He needs your input, He will ask for it- yea, rite :dunno2: )
Who has given to Him that He should repay (Nothin you think you know controls anything He does :punish: )
For from Him and through Him and To Him are All Things (And evrything will turn out great :skittles: )
To whom be the glory forever (So just say thanks and get off your high horse :banana: )
It says, He has "put eternity in the hearts of men".
"eternity"
H5769
עלם עולם
‛ôlâm ‛ôlâm
o-lawm', o-lawm'
From H5956; properly concealed, that is, the vanishing point; generally time out of mind (past or future), that is, (practically) eternity; frequentative adverbially (especially with prepositional prefix) always: - always (-s), ancient (time), any more, continuance, eternal, (for, [n-]) ever (-lasting, -more, of old), lasting, long (time), (of) old (time), perpetual, at any time, (beginning of the) world (+ without end). Compare H5331, H5703.
Quote from: Illuin on January 22, 2013, 04:24:48 AM
The future is the source out of which the present comes to us. This is a fundamental "law of physics" that is not open for speculation or debate, though it may not tickle the ears of those who like to remain in their comfort zone.
I have seen quite a few paragigms used to show the immutable 'law of physics.' When I started teaching the whole rage was to do away with notions of before and after. Past and present were concepts, the cyclical nature of the repeating universe now that was where it was at. We knew we were right becaue we had the math to prove it. I came to see that physics, like most of the things we teach in order to try to help those ignorant ones who couldn't think in our rarefied ways, was a metaphor. But then the metaphor changed, and lo and behold, the ignorant slobs had to be retaugh all over again because we were in charge of Truth, Reality, and telling them what wine to drink. The vanity went on, and unfortunately we had taugh enough egos to copy us with their own generation ... I see that generation did the same thing. Pity.
Quote from: Illuin on January 22, 2013, 04:24:48 AM
The reason so many false doctrines exist is because people would rather speculate and remain content within their comfort zone, rather than digging deeper to learn the facts, both Scripturally and scientifically.
The reason there are so many false doctrines is because Christians would rather win than love.
Quote from: VineBranch on January 22, 2013, 08:08:58 AM
Quote from: Illuin on January 22, 2013, 04:24:48 AM
The future is the source out of which the present comes to us. This is a fundamental "law of physics" that is not open for speculation or debate, though it may not tickle the ears of those who like to remain in their comfort zone.
I have seen quite a few paragigms used to show the immutable 'law of physics.' When I started teaching the whole rage was to do away with notions of before and after. Past and present were concepts, the cyclical nature of the repeating universe now that was where it was at. We knew we were right becaue we had the math to prove it. I came to see that physics, like most of the things we teach in order to try to help those ignorant ones who couldn't think in our rarefied ways, was a metaphor. But then the metaphor changed, and lo and behold, the ignorant slobs had to be retaugh all over again because we were in charge of Truth, Reality, and telling them what wine to drink. The vanity went on, and unfortunately we had taugh enough egos to copy us with their own generation ... I see that generation did the same thing. Pity.
Quote from: Illuin on January 22, 2013, 04:24:48 AM
The reason so many false doctrines exist is because people would rather speculate and remain content within their comfort zone, rather than digging deeper to learn the facts, both Scripturally and scientifically.
The reason there are so many false doctrines is because Christians would rather win than love.
Win at what? Everyone has gifts God has given them to share with others. It is common for many to hear someone else's insights that differ from their own and scoff and ridicule them, and then fall back on the immature cliche of telling them they do not have love in their hearts. That is something I would expect to hear in a fundamentalist forum VB, not in a Universalist forum, which by default, should be way beyond the milk doctrines and instead exploring the deeper, beautiful hidden truths of God in the Spirit. Lose the chip on your shoulder VB. Love and suppressed anger in the same body is like matter and antimatter colliding with each other..... they cancel each other out, leaving nothing = ZERO = VANITY.
Quote from: Molly on January 22, 2013, 06:20:21 AM
It says, He is "the eternal God."
"eternal"
H6924
קדמה קדם
qedem qêdmâh
keh'-dem, kayd'-maw
From H6923; the front, of place (absolutely the fore part, relatively the East) or time (antiquity); often used adverbially (before, anciently, eastward): - aforetime, ancient (time), before, east (end, part, side, -ward), eternal, X ever (-lasting), forward, old, past. Compare H6926.
In other words, he is the first in place and time.
Absolutely! :dsunny:
Quote from: Molly on January 22, 2013, 06:38:15 AM
It says, He has "put eternity in the hearts of men".
"eternity"
H5769
עלם עולם
‛ôlâm ‛ôlâm
o-lawm', o-lawm'
From H5956; properly concealed, that is, the vanishing point; generally time out of mind (past or future), that is, (practically) eternity; frequentative adverbially (especially with prepositional prefix) always: - always (-s), ancient (time), any more, continuance, eternal, (for, [n-]) ever (-lasting, -more, of old), lasting, long (time), (of) old (time), perpetual, at any time, (beginning of the) world (+ without end). Compare H5331, H5703.
Are you shuffling the deck. As far as I know the word eternity is only used once in my Bible (H5703/5710), and I cannot find your quote, It says, He has "put eternity in the hearts of men".
He has made everything beautiful in its time. He has also set eternity in the hearts of men; yet they cannot fathom what God has done from beginning to end.
Yet God has made everything beautiful for its own time. He has planted eternity in the human heart, but even so, people cannot see the whole scope of God's work from beginning to end.
He has made everything appropriate in its time. He has also set eternity in their heart, yet so that man will not find out the work which God has done from the beginning even to the end.
He has made everything beautiful in its time. Also, he has put eternity into man's heart, yet so that he cannot find out what God has done from the beginning to the end.
He made everything appropriate in its time. He also placed eternity within them—yet, no person can fully comprehend what God is doing from beginning to end.
It is beautiful how God has done everything at the right time. He has put a sense of eternity in people's minds. Yet, mortals still can't grasp what God is doing from the beginning to the end [of time].
He has made every thing beautiful in its time: also he has put eternity in men's hearts, so that no man can find out the work that God does from the beginning to the end.
He has made everything beautiful in its time. He has also set eternity in their hearts, yet so that man can't find out the work that God has done from the beginning even to the end.
--Ecc 3:11
11 He has made `.everything fitting in its season;
However, He has put `.obscurity in their heart
So no that the man may not find out `.His work,
That which the One, Elohim, does
from the beginning to the terminus.(CLT)
Ecc 3:11 The whole He hath made beautiful in its season; also, that knowledge He hath put in their heart without which man findeth not out the work that God hath done from the beginning even unto the end. (YLT)
Ecc 3:11 He hath made every thing beautiful in his time: also he hath set the world in their heart, so that no man can find out the work that God maketh from the beginning to the end. (KJV)
Ecc. 3:11 he assigned each to its proper time, but for the mind of man he hath appointed a mystery, that man may never fathom God's 0wn purpose from the beginning to the end.(Moffat)
Ecc. 3:11 He hath made everything beautiful in its time; also he has made the world dear to man's heart, so that no man can find out the works which the
Lord has done from the beginning to the end. (Lamsa)
Ecc 3:11 He hath made every thing beautiful in its time: also he hath set the world in their heart, yet so that man cannot find out the work that God hath done from the beginning even to the end.(RV)
Ecclesiastes 3:11
He has made everything beautiful in its season. He has also placed Eternity in their minds, with the intention that man should never discover, from beginning to end, the complete Creation which GOD has made. (Ferrar Fenton Version)
WOW! And I mean that as a good WOW. :dsunny: So many translations and versions for one word used only one time.
The dictionary would carry a meaning as well and it gets its meaning from eternal.
So is time eternal in eternity, does time stop......somewhere or (I can't say some"time" it would be silly)? :dsunny: :HeartThrob:
No, time doesn't stop.
Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will never pass away.
--Luke 21:33
World without end!
Quote from: Molly on January 22, 2013, 06:49:40 PM
No, time doesn't stop.
Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will never pass away.
--Luke 21:33
World without end!
:thumbsup: :dsunny: :Peace2: :HeartThrob: :iagree: :cloud9:
IMO, There is no time if there is no matter. Matter is what we use to calibrate time.
Even if time did exist without matter, it would be meaningless with nothing to compare it to.
All would be aeonian - an indefinite period of time.
Quote from: Illuin on January 22, 2013, 08:40:53 AM
Win at what? Everyone has gifts God has given them to share with others. It is common for many to hear someone else's insights that differ from their own and scoff and ridicule them, and then fall back on the immature cliche of telling them they do not have love in their hearts. That is something I would expect to hear in a fundamentalist forum VB, not in a Universalist forum, which by default, should be way beyond the milk doctrines and instead exploring the deeper, beautiful hidden truths of God in the Spirit. Lose the chip on your shoulder VB. Love and suppressed anger in the same body is like matter and antimatter colliding with each other..... they cancel each other out, leaving nothing = ZERO = VANITY.
If you have a moment, I would recommend you read J. Vernon McGee's introduction to the KJV Bible he used for his programme. It might help (or not, who knows)
" That is something I would expect to hear in a fundamentalist forum VB, not in a Universalist forum ..."
Well no actually, this is not a site devoted to univeralism, it is a site devoted to Universal Reconciliation. Two very different things.
"It is common for many to hear someone else's insights that differ from their own and scoff and ridicule them, and then fall back on the immature cliche of telling them they do not have love in their hearts."
So, because I have the insight that no amount of human knowledge allows the understanding which comes from a loving relationship with the Father, and that differs from yours, you now have the right to call me names, and ridicule me, and accuse me of being a fundamentalist (a word which has so many negative connotations).
"Lose the chip on your shoulder VB. Love and suppressed anger in the same body is like matter and antimatter colliding with each other..... they cancel each other out, leaving nothing = ZERO = VANITY."
Didn't you take Eagle to task for what you perceived as name-calling, and personal attacks? Is it different when you do it? Do you have special dispensation because your paradigm is more current.
May I respectfully draw your attention to the fact that this is a discussion forum, not a debate.
But, if it is important to you that you be right, congratulations you win.
Quote from: Lazarus Short on January 22, 2013, 06:11:17 PM
Ecclesiastes 3:11
He has made everything beautiful in its season. He has also placed Eternity in their minds, with the intention that man should never discover, from beginning to end, the complete Creation which GOD has made. (Ferrar Fenton Version)
I just read the first part of Genesis in the Fenton version Laz, neat stuff!!!!!
Illuin and VB - please remember to use the IMO and :2c:
I know I forget to use it myself and the stronger I feel about a topic, the less
likely I am to use it. In my mind I am obviously right and anyone disagreeing is obviously wrong.
But whatever we currently believe, we used to believe something different
The only people that still believe things like they did when they were 10 hasn't reached age 11 yet, IMO.
Quote from: ded2daworld on January 22, 2013, 07:38:00 PM
IMO, There is no time if there is no matter. Matter is what we use to calibrate time.
Even if time did exist without matter, it would be meaningless with nothing to compare it to.
All would be aeonian - an indefinite period of time.
Ded, I believe or imo that this maybe the "matter".
1 Now faith is an assumption of what is being expected, a conviction concerning matters
which are not being observed;2 for in this the elders were testified to.
3 By faith we are apprehending the eons to adjust to a declaration of God,
so that what is being observed has not come out of what is appearing.
Quote from: ded2daworld on January 22, 2013, 07:38:00 PM
IMO, There is no time if there is no matter. Matter is what we use to calibrate time.
Even if time did exist without matter, it would be meaningless with nothing to compare it to.
All would be aeonian - an indefinite period of time.
But, that's not what God says. He's not counting time in matter, he's counting it in words, in letters even.
I am the alpha and the omega, the beginning and the end...He's counting time in consciousness. I Am.
By matter, I was referring to something with physicality
not it's importance. :Peace2:
Like to a non-believer, "all that matters is matter for there is no proof of anything immaterial." (non-matter)
Since God sees the beginning to the end, IMO that indicates time will end since it had a beginning.
Everything with the exception of God has a beginning and an end. This includes time.
Quote from: ded2daworld on January 22, 2013, 08:02:17 PM
Since God sees the beginning to the end, IMO that indicates time will end since it had a beginning.
Everything with the exception of God has a beginning and an end. This includes time.
He will see a matter from beginning to end, or he will see an age from beginning to end, but where does it say time ends? It might say it somewhere, I have just not seen it.
It says ages to the ages. World without end!
Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.
To him be glory by his church in Yeshua The Messiah to all generations of the eternity of eternities. Amen.
--Eph 3:21
Quote from: ded2daworld on January 22, 2013, 08:00:34 PM
By matter, I was referring to something with physicality
not it's importance. :Peace2:
Like to a non-believer, "all that matters is matter for there is no proof of anything immaterial." (non-matter)
Do you consider energy matter?
What about Spirit?
I didn't say that time will end.
I said IMO it will end if there is no physical matter anywhere.
If the world never ends, time will surely never end. :dsunny:
Energy is matter. Matter is energy. Spirit by definition is immaterial and therefore not matter. IMO
Quote from: ded2daworld on January 22, 2013, 08:13:58 PM
I didn't say that time will end.
I said IMO it will end if there is no physical matter anywhere.
If the world never ends, time will surely never end. :dsunny:
Energy is matter. Matter is energy. Spirit by definition is immaterial and therefore not matter. IMO
But didn't he just tell us that we don't need heaven and earth for time?
If his word continues forever, don't we still have time?
Maybe spirit is a type of energy we just haven't defined yet.
Since God continues forever, surely his word will also. :dsunny: :Peace2:
Alrighty. So He goes on forever and what does he promise us?
I will never leave you or forsake you.
Heb 13:5, Deut 31:6
World without end!
"It will take some time, but in time,
questions about time will be dispensed with in a timely manner."
I say, "it's about time we started living in the forever of now. :Peace2:
Yes indeed - once you come (or are dragged!) to God, repenting and believing, eternity (however you may think of it) has already begun for you. Overall, I was dragged, but before that I had had the opportunity to come freely, and I well remember a certain altar call when I felt a physical but invisible push toward the aisle...
SPIRIT IS the substance of matter. All that I see is Spirit. A rock of stone is Spirit. A tornado is Spirit. TIME is Spirit. I do not even by a whisker understand, but GOD IS SPIRIT. "....the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life." :dsunny:
Well, this isn't much help. "Eternity is time with the quality of timelessness."
(visit the dentist's office for an illustration)
e·ter·ni·ty
n. pl. e·ter·ni·ties
1. Time without beginning or end; infinite time.
2. The state or quality of being eternal.
3.
a. The timeless state following death.
b. The afterlife; immortality.
4. A very long or seemingly endless time: waited in the dentist's office for an eternity.
25 Beforetime You founded the earth,
And the heavens are the dwork of Your hands.
26 They´ shall perish, +yet You´ shall stand.
+ All of them shall decay like a cloak;
Like clothing, You shall change them,
and they shall pass by.
27
+Yet You remain the same,
And Your years shall not come to end.
Psa 102:25 Beforetime the earth Thou didst found, And the work of Thy hands are the heavens.
Psa 102:26 They--They perish, and Thou remainest, And all of them as a garment become old, As clothing Thou changest them, And they are changed.
Psa 102:27 And Thou art the same, and Thine years are not finished.
Psa 102:28 The sons of Thy servants do continue, And their seed before Thee is established!
Psa 102:25 Of old hast thou laid the foundation of the earth: and the heavens are the work of thy hands.
Psa 102:26 They shall perish, but thou shalt endure: yea, all of them shall wax old like a garment; as a vesture shalt thou change them, and they shall be changed:
Psa 102:27 But thou art the same, and thy years shall have no end.
Psa 102:28 The children of thy servants shall continue, and their seed shall be established before thee.
Psa 102:25 Of old didst thou lay the foundation of the earth; And the heavens are the work of thy hands.
Psa 102:26 They shall perish, but thou shalt endure; Yea, all of them shall wax old like a garment; As a vesture shalt thou change them, and they shall be changed:
Psa 102:27 But thou art the same, And thy years shall have no end.
Psa 102:28 The children of thy servants shall continue, And their seed shall be established before thee.
Quote from: micah7:9 on January 22, 2013, 08:43:35 PM
SPIRIT IS the substance of matter. All that I see is Spirit. A rock of stone is Spirit. A tornado is Spirit. TIME is Spirit. I do not even by a whisker understand, but GOD IS SPIRIT. "....the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life." :dsunny:
IMO, you are right in the sense that everything material is actually
made (formed) of
"things which do not appear":
- Hebrews 11:3 "Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear."
But just so others are not confused, God went to great lengths to illustrate the distinct difference between
"the natural" and
"the spiritual", even though their
"Source" is the same.
- John 3:5-8 "Jesus answered, 'Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.' The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.'"
- 1 Corinthians 15:44-46 "It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. So also it is written, 'The first man, Adam, became a living soul." The last Adam became a life-giving SPIRIT. The spiritual did NOT come first, but the natural, and AFTER THAT the spiritual."
:Peace2:
Quote from: ded2daworld on January 22, 2013, 07:52:15 PM
Illuin and VB - please remember to use the IMO and :2c:
I know I forget to use it myself and the stronger I feel about a topic, the less
likely I am to use it. In my mind I am obviously right and anyone disagreeing is obviously wrong.
But whatever we currently believe, we used to believe something different
The only people that still believe things like they did when they were 10 hasn't reached age 11 yet, IMO.
Yes, and even if we don't always use the words, we need to present in the
spirit and attitude of sharing, conversationally, what we've been given to understand at the moment. I don't believe any of us have "arrived", as we all see through a glass darkly. Blessings.
VineBranch, think about it this way. If time proceeded as you suggest, the PAST would be moving toward us. I mean, it's wishful thinking, because Lord knows I would certainly like to "un-do" a few things :laughing7: But it is the FUTURE that moves toward us, and we MOVE INTO the future. It is true that "the beginning of Human History" is in the past, but "the beginning of TIME" is in the future. Think about it: all anyone has is 'NOW.' Nothing really exists but 'NOW.' So the question is: "When will NOW be THEN?" The answer: "Soon!" (remember 'Spaceballs?' :laughing7:)
Quote from: Illuin on January 23, 2013, 12:50:05 AM
VineBranch, think about it this way. If time proceeded as you suggest, the PAST would be moving toward us. I mean, it's wishful thinking, because Lord knows I would certainly like to "un-do" a few things :laughing7: But it is the FUTURE that moves toward us, and we MOVE INTO the future. It is true that "the beginning of Human History" is in the past, but "the beginning of TIME" is in the future. Think about it: all anyone has is 'NOW.' Nothing really exists but 'NOW.' So the question is: "When will NOW be THEN?" The answer: "Soon!" (remember 'Spaceballs?' :laughing7:)
I agree with what you say the future is moving towards us, but there is coming a judgement and then we find, "If time proceeded as you suggest,
the PAST would be moving toward us." Yea! Most certainly the PAST IS moving towards us.
Time IS always.
IMO, What comes around goes around. :o)
Mic 7:9 The indignation of Jehovah I do bear, For I have sinned against Him, Till that He doth plead my cause, And hath executed my judgment, He doth bring me forth to the light, I look on His righteousness.
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
(1Jn 1:8-9)
Quote from: ded2daworld on January 22, 2013, 07:52:15 PM
The only people that still believe things like they did when they were 10 hasn't reached age 11 yet, IMO.
You are a philosopher at heart: I knew it.
Quote from: Illuin on January 23, 2013, 12:50:05 AM
But it is the FUTURE that moves toward us, and we MOVE INTO the future.
In my Very Humble Opinion, those two things can't exist in the same sentence and make sense. If we move into the future, then the future in not moving toward us.
If the future moves toward me, and I can move toward the future, then the past can move away from me, and I move away from the past? If I am moving away from the past, I can't move toward it. If the past is moving, can I be sure to where it is moving (relativity would say no), so the past can move into the future as well.
Time is an earthly concept, a perception by humans. God doesn't experience time but we do now on earth. I believe God moves in the eternal now & really question whether its possible for time to exsist outside of human experience.
I believe to that when a person walks in the spirit it is the eternal now, outsid eof time & space just as there is no distance in the spirit from me to you. He calls us to the leave the things of time for the things of eternity which have eternal reaps & benefits.
Great topic time is! Any clock tick ticking in heaven can u imagine? :icon_jokercolor:
Quote from: battle axe on January 23, 2013, 10:49:30 AM
Great topic time is! Any clock tick ticking in heaven can u imagine? :icon_jokercolor:
I know battle, I've been obsessed with Time (and Death) since high school, and still haven't (sorry, the pun demands I let it out) gotten the hang of it yet.
I think that old film a matter of life or death was quite good fun, the clock had stoped second short which hadn't happened for sooo long such a mistake lol!
My flesh wants to say that in Glory there will surely come a time, or come a day but if i think about it hardly I must refuse them idea's and say there will come a moment, makes a lot more sense. Anything spiritual unearthly canno't surely be connected to time?
There must be many new moments to come to us in Glory, nothing rewinding itself to us which is already prepared but sudden moments of new experiences, maybe one for example would be colonizing planets? :smile:
Just a last thought iF HS tells you to do something to be somewhere or go see that person, though the action itself of following it may not be time travel (earthly speaking) but a form of time travel if you move within God's channel, maybe a form of time travel like that is only now possible on earth because we can move out of time in the eternal now?
The HS shows us things to come so we may know what do do sometimes, I once had a friend visit me & I knew he was struggling with sin, God had played me the scene almost what will happen, & he came around it was pre ordained & played out exactly as it was shown me almost, We brought some things up to the Lord & said sorry about our ways, As he starts praying suddenly door bell rings, his phone starts buzzing?? :eek: creepy it was, but he got refreshed renewed & was blessed. THe devil tried to stop it but he couldn't
actually our time in this flesh..is as spiritual watches ...we have built in time-keepers...tickers if you will........
when time is up.... the time-peice quits ticking..and immortality swallows up mortality.
I understand your question. But whether time does not exist has been debated for millennia, and is something I can scarcely discern, anchored as my conscious psyche is in a temporal realm. But rest assured that if something exists, it either is God or was created by Him; there is nothing else in existence. There is in existence only the Trinity and Creation, and the latter is existentially dependent upon the former. God transcends all that he created. If time exists, then he created it and thus transcends it.
---------------------
Buy my book The Superior Religion? Christianity and the Human Condition at Amazon!
I will probably wait for your book when it gets to the library as I did for 23 minutes in hell, but thanks :dsunny:
Waiting in the library for 23 minutes was hell? :laugh:
Quote from: ded2daworld on January 23, 2013, 10:49:18 PM
Waiting in the library for 23 minutes was hell? :laugh:
:laugh: :laughing7: :laugh: it was also hell reading it. :HeartThrob:
My deepest sympathies for having spent any amount of time waiting anywhere for that book! And, my book is just a universalist summa theologica, nothing outlandish like a claim that one went to Hell/tripped on acid haha.
----------------------------
Buy my book The Superior Religion? Christianity and the Human Condition at Amazon!
I believe we are spirits having a human experience passing through this Universal canvass.
When we look back at our human experience maybe we'll say remember that moment we called time , knowing the reasons we were handed over to time?
Surely the testing time for God's eternal purposes & pleasure perhaps for what he saw fit to do?
Time equals testing in my brain right now & I can't see any other reason for it in my glass jaw mind :bottlebump:
yes...an exercize in good/evil. for the spirit sons and daughters of God.
There will still be time even after we have received our glorified bodies.
That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. Eph 2:7
Time is not a bad or difficult thing for an immortal. :winkgrin:
In fact, I'm sure it will be more like the time we consider vacation than the time we consider work [two different kinds of time].
World without end!
Quote from: k1ngm3 on January 23, 2013, 10:22:46 PM
I understand your question. But whether time does not exist has been debated for millennia, ...
:laugh:
Quote from: VineBranch on January 24, 2013, 04:03:12 AM
Quote from: k1ngm3 on January 23, 2013, 10:22:46 PM
I understand your question. But whether time does not exist has been debated for millennia, ...
:laugh:
:laugh:
Quote from: k1ngm3 on January 23, 2013, 10:57:58 PM
My deepest sympathies for having spent any amount of time waiting anywhere for that book! And, my book is just a universalist summa theologica, nothing outlandish like a claim that one went to Hell/tripped on acid haha.
----------------------------
Buy my book The Superior Religion? Christianity and the Human Condition at Amazon!
Universalist? or Universal reconciliation?
Quote from: Molly on January 24, 2013, 03:08:27 AM
In fact, I'm sure it will be more like the time we consider vacation than the time we consider work [two different kinds of time].
Molly, do you think that could be two different social constructs of time, and not necessarily two kinds of time?
The discussion so far reminds me of this:
A SHORT HISTORY OF THE HUMAN RACE
One mountain said to another mountain, "Did you see something?"
Quote from: VineBranch on January 24, 2013, 04:05:40 AM
Quote from: k1ngm3 on January 23, 2013, 10:57:58 PM
My deepest sympathies for having spent any amount of time waiting anywhere for that book! And, my book is just a universalist summa theologica, nothing outlandish like a claim that one went to Hell/tripped on acid haha.
----------------------------
Buy my book The Superior Religion? Christianity and the Human Condition at Amazon!
Universalist? or Universal reconciliation?
Er... sure, call it universalist, universal reconciliatory, apokatastastic, or even TUUIP (if you're Calvinist).
Quote from: VineBranch on January 24, 2013, 04:09:26 AM
Quote from: Molly on January 24, 2013, 03:08:27 AM
In fact, I'm sure it will be more like the time we consider vacation than the time we consider work [two different kinds of time].
Molly, do you think that could be two different social constructs of time, and not necessarily two kinds of time?
Not sure what you mean by social construct of time. I'm pretty sure you don't mean middle class versus rich time, .....do you? :laugh:
But, I do know time is very elastic. I've been playing with it for years.
I wonder what makes us think that God would be outside of time. Time seems to be a necessary aspect of creation and he's a Creator.
Man thinks he is constrained by time, but he's not.
So, what do you mean?
PS something that has been going over and over in my head lately: He is the God of second chances. You need time for that.
[Micah 7:18] "Who is a God like you, pardoning iniquity and passing over transgression for the remnant of his inheritance? He does not retain his anger forever, because he delights in steadfast love."
Quote from: Molly on January 24, 2013, 03:08:27 AM
There will still be time even after we have received our glorified bodies.
That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. Eph 2:7
Time is not a bad or difficult thing for an immortal. :winkgrin:
In fact, I'm sure it will be more like the time we consider vacation than the time we consider work [two different kinds of time].
World without end!
Jesus would be the perfect example of the idea that immortals have no problem with being in time (or out of it IMO)
about world without end - to the age of the ages (an unending age or everlasting age)New Testament occurrence Ephesians 3:21
ειςG1519 unto πασαςG3956 all ταςG3588 the γενεαςG1074 generatios τουG3588 (of) the αιωνοςG165 aion τωνG3588 (of)the αιωνωνG165 aions
unto every generation of the age of the ages CLV and YLT agree
Old Testament occurrence
But Israel shall be saved in the LORD with an everlastingH5769(olam olam) salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded
world without end. ad H5704 olam H5769 adH5703
(Isa 45:17)
ad olam ad terminus vanishing point terminus or from absolute beginning through unkown duration to absolute end or everlasting end.......
..... depending on who you believe or where your own contextual studies take you, this could read either way as to a completion point for time or an unending age of time.
ad5704 occurs over 1000 times in the OT and usually just means "and" and a multiplier, like the herbs "and" the beasts "and" the birds
ad 5703 only occurs 48 times and KJY and YLT render it ever and forever (as in perish forever)
CLV renders it like "will be" or "will come" (as in will come to perishing)
Quote from: Molly on January 24, 2013, 05:30:35 AM
Quote from: VineBranch on January 24, 2013, 04:09:26 AM
Quote from: Molly on January 24, 2013, 03:08:27 AM
In fact, I'm sure it will be more like the time we consider vacation than the time we consider work [two different kinds of time].
Molly, do you think that could be two different social constructs of time, and not necessarily two kinds of time?
Not sure what you mean by social construct of time. I'm pretty sure you don't mean middle class versus rich time, .....do you? :laugh:
But, I do know time is very elastic. I've been playing with it for years.
I wonder what makes us think that God would be outside of time. Time seems to be a necessary aspect of creation and he's a Creator.
Man thinks he is constrained by time, but he's not.
So, what do you mean?
PS something that has been going over and over in my head lately: He is the God of second chances. You need time for that.
[Micah 7:18] "Who is a God like you, pardoning iniquity and passing over transgression for the remnant of his inheritance? He does not retain his anger forever, because he delights in steadfast love."
I once told a friend of mine that God took six whole days to perform creation to show us that time was important: He could have done it in an instant had He so chosen.
What I mean by social construction of time is this. I have been told since I was a child that work comes first. If work takes up all the time you have then so be it. If you have any time left you can use for your hobbies, or interests. It was refered to as free-time. Work is where I spend time because I have to, and as such it has a certain social value, and must be used productively. Free time doesn't need a structure to have a value. If this is clear as mud, please tell me, I'll see if I can make it even more confusing. :laugh:
Is that the catholic or the protestant work ethic?
If protestant, it sounds lutheran.
I'm just blowing smoke here.
What if you love your work? Doesn't that mess the whole thing up? :laughing7:
And, what if its value cannot be measured by the usual norms of societal approval or money?
Only a deep satisfaction...
Work time, free time, work ethic? I'm retired, so I like to say that I have two kinds of time, six Saturdays and one Sunday. How does that feel? Having not to get up and go to work most everyday makes time seem more open-ended, and I am more contented. Back about 1994 to 2004 i worked at a job forty strenuous hours a week, plus some overtime, plus taking call, plus rotating weekends. After a while, I was tired on Saturdays, OK on Sundays...then tired on Saturdays, Sundays, and only rested on Mondays of a three-day weekend. I had no life, and it seemed that I was either at work, or on my way to work. The contrast with time now is just amazing. The feel of time in the ages to come will be even more amazing. :cloud9:
Quote from: Lazarus Short on January 24, 2013, 06:51:37 PM
Back about 1994 to 2004 i worked at a job forty strenuous hours a week, plus some overtime, plus taking call, plus rotating weekends. After a while, I was tired on Saturdays, OK on Sundays...then tired on Saturdays, Sundays, and only rested on Mondays of a three-day weekend. I had no life, and it seemed that I was either at work, or on my way to work. The contrast with time now is just amazing. The feel of time in the ages to come will be even more amazing. :cloud9:
That is what I was taught was time which had value, productive time. Time spend doing something which couldn't be measured as productive was called spare time, and usually if you had some of that you were frowned on. Only people who weren't participating in achieving the greater good were all had free time; they were lazy, free-loaders who were taking away from the whole, gathered by the hard working people who were supporting them. You could only get away with doing nothing if you were retired, and then you had to putter around to show you weren't dead yet.
Quote from: VineBranch on January 28, 2013, 02:02:46 AM
Quote from: Lazarus Short on January 24, 2013, 06:51:37 PM
Back about 1994 to 2004 i worked at a job forty strenuous hours a week, plus some overtime, plus taking call, plus rotating weekends. After a while, I was tired on Saturdays, OK on Sundays...then tired on Saturdays, Sundays, and only rested on Mondays of a three-day weekend. I had no life, and it seemed that I was either at work, or on my way to work. The contrast with time now is just amazing. The feel of time in the ages to come will be even more amazing. :cloud9:
That is what I was taught was time which had value, productive time. Time spend doing something which couldn't be measured as productive was called spare time, and usually if you had some of that you were frowned on. Only people who weren't participating in achieving the greater good were all had free time; they were lazy, free-loaders who were taking away from the whole, gathered by the hard working people who were supporting them. You could only get away with doing nothing if you were retired, and then you had to putter around to show you weren't dead yet.
This is so true! :laughing7:
That means I need to putter more!
Quote from: Molly on January 24, 2013, 09:15:09 AM
Is that the catholic or the protestant work ethic?
If protestant, it sounds lutheran.
I'm just blowing smoke here.
What if you love your work? Doesn't that mess the whole thing up? :laughing7:
And, what if its value cannot be measured by the usual norms of societal approval or money?
Only a deep satisfaction...
Only a deep satisfactionThe richest reward and the greatest validation :thumbsup:
I really wish I hadn't posted the post, it is to wrangling, I won't do a foolish consideration again. At the time, I don't know what I was thinking. Thanks ever body! :banana:
Quote from: Molly on January 24, 2013, 09:15:09 AM
Is that the catholic or the protestant work ethic?
If protestant, it sounds lutheran.
I'm just blowing smoke here.
What if you love your work? Doesn't that mess the whole thing up? :laughing7:
And, what if its value cannot be measured by the usual norms of societal approval or money?
Only a deep satisfaction...
I was raised a protestant.
I agree it sounds Lutheran, but most reformation denominations (especially those in the north) tended to maximize the work ethic. I hear it's not that bad these days in Europe.
People who loved their work didn't get as much credit for it as people who dragged themselves to work every day. (This is also true in exercise classes I hear.)
If the value cannot be measured, it has no value: something like the physics definition of work.
Quote from: micah7:9 on January 28, 2013, 08:05:56 AM
I really wish I hadn't posted the post, it is to wrangling, I won't do a foolish consideration again. At the time, I don't know what I was thinking. Thanks ever body! :banana:
You provided a place for a bunch of playful folk to hang out and spend some time. I think you did great.
Putter...... Putter......Putter......?
Where is my Putter?
Quote from: eaglesway on January 28, 2013, 11:03:39 PM
Putter...... Putter......Putter......?
Where is my Putter?
Right next to your four iron, which if you wouldn't mind, could you use to iron my shirts. Thanks.
You might think we've run out of topics to discuss...
Quote from: Lazarus Short on January 29, 2013, 04:35:58 AM
You might think we've run out of topics to discuss...
Play is also important: don't you think. If we have time to be serious, we should have time to have fun. There could be season for levity and this could be it. Maybe this is 'break time'.
Maybe we all just had a good weekend... :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana:
Just how many of you are there?
Maybe half the bananas are enough, the rest should split.