Hey, some of you really got me thinking about this so I would like some more input...................
I went to sleep talking with the Lord about the fallen angels, the third that fell. I'm wondering if we humans are that third. It seems crazy but it fits so good and it encourages me greatly. It means that we were with God before. It makes Jesus' words about going back to His Father to be like it was before, menaingful to me. All people are summed up in Adam. That's a lot of people. Could it be the number of the third of the angels? Is that why this madness goes on and on? Is God waiting for that last angel to be redeemed?
The carnal mind is enmity against God. So are a third of the angels. Adam ate of the tree and was thrown out of the garden. Satan and a third of the angels got prideful and were cast out of heaven.
Gods truths are many faceted, many layered, like a diamond. These thoughts came upon me just yesterday. I am feeling much closer to God because of them for some reason. Just think about it. Here we are, a host of heavenly beings. Then God continues His work by allowing a third of us to experience something different, something awful, something strange, something so beautiful in the end. Just like Jesus. Jesus came from God, became in all ways like mortal man, became sin, experienced things awful and beautiful and then returned to God.
The implications are enormous. Robin is challenging me like crazy on these thoughts as I am doing to myself but the obvious questions are making it more real. It fits. It makes sense.
The two thirds are experiencing something extremely special that we will never experience and that is the experience of never sinning while we are very special to God too in that we experience the awfulness of sin and all its implications. Hmmmmmmmmmm.
cp
I thought Human came last...
Maybe God's plan all along was to saved the devil's soul?
The truth is we all don't know God's plan but Paul and the others know his secret plan, even Abraham...
Is our salvation a remembering?
A re-membering. Being united again with God Himself and those two thirds who are our brothers.
cp
Quote from: IceDash on March 20, 2009, 04:08:32 PM
I thought Human came last...
Maybe God's plan all along was to saved the devil's soul?
The truth is we all don't know God's plan but Paul and the others know his secret plan, even Abraham...
Hey ID,
Jesus is the first and last. The order of events is not as easily discerned as we might think. God was, is and is to come. The same yesterday, today and forever.
The 'Devil's soul' will be done away with IMO. The Devil's soul IMO is the carnal mind. This carnal mind is and will be replaced by the mind of Christ. The stronger will always eventually win out over the weaker.
The secret is being revealed ID. You know more than you think, I think!
cp
Zec 13:9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It [is] my people: and they shall say, The LORD [is] my God.
Quote from: chuckt on March 20, 2009, 04:17:15 PM
Zec 13:9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It [is] my people: and they shall say, The LORD [is] my God.
That's the one I was talking about but one tiny problem: Jesus and his people in a new heaven, outside the gate are dogs, liar, evil......
does that mean the "test by fire" fail?
Quote from: IceDash on March 20, 2009, 04:19:57 PM
Quote from: chuckt on March 20, 2009, 04:17:15 PM
Zec 13:9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It [is] my people: and they shall say, The LORD [is] my God.
That's the one I was talking about but one tiny problem: Jesus and his people in a new heaven, outside the gate are dogs, liar, evil......
does that mean the "test by fire" fail?
well depends on how you look at it, spiritually speaking are not the dogs and liars ""outside"" right NOW??
as for the ""future"' i can not say, nor can i say how long they stay ""outside"' but some say this is just for the millineum, which also raise questions....
it is a tuff topic, tradition still clouds my mind.
thoughts?
God bless
chuckt
:cloud9: Chuckt that Zech. scripture really hit me. Who says the third are individuals? Why couldn't the third that fell be a third of our nature, ie. the part that was heavenly to begin with, the spirit of man? Our Spirit RETURNS to the One that sent it.
Our Spirit is what is first saved in the outer court experience of knowing Jesus. Then we work out the rest of our salvation (means deliverance) with fear and trembling (soul) while waiting for the FULL REDEMPTION, the redemption of our bodies. So spirit, soul, and body are to come back into union with Christ who is our Head, and our Head is in the heavenly realm. Something to think about.
Are you gone yet pneuma? Blessings....
Quote from: Cardinal on March 20, 2009, 04:40:47 PM
:cloud9: Chuckt that Zech. scripture really hit me. Who says the third are individuals? Why couldn't the third that fell be a third of our nature, ie. the part that was heavenly to begin with, the spirit of man? Our Spirit RETURNS to the One that sent it.
Our Spirit is what is first saved in the outer court experience of knowing Jesus. Then we work out the rest of our salvation (means deliverance) with fear and trembling (soul) while waiting for the FULL REDEMPTION, the redemption of our bodies. So spirit, soul, and body are to come back into union with Christ who is our Head, and our Head is in the heavenly realm. Something to think about.
Are you gone yet pneuma? Blessings....
thats just crazy talk :happy3: man that is very interesting!
thanks im gonna meditate on it. woohoo.
chuckt
Quote from: chuckt on March 20, 2009, 04:17:15 PM
Zec 13:9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It [is] my people: and they shall say, The LORD [is] my God.
OK, now I'm soaring. Chuck, that is an amazing verse. Just what I was looking for.
Card, I was also thinking about the body, soul and spirit application. There are so many 'thirds' in life. I think again of the many facets of all truth.
ID, fire is everlasting. It cannot fail. It just keeps working until all is consumed. Yes there are dogs and vile things still outside the gate so to speak. I see dogs still within my own being yet I know I am saved by fire as I know I will be saved by fire.
We have a host of Beings (the 2/3rds) watching us, waiting for us, helping us. An amazing thought to me.
I talked with my wife this morning. She still thinks I'm out to lunch on this one. I explained how I see it. God looks down and says....................
Now where did that boy come up with that one? Hmmmmmmmmm. That's a good one. Wish I would have thought of that!or................
UH oh, I think that boy and his pals got it. Now watch things start to happen. Angels, wake up, they are going to need you, their family, more now than ever. Jesus prayed to be reunited with God and us to join Him. In Christ we are going home!
cp
Again I want to stress another previous point............Why does this madness we call living still go on and on and on? All the evil and so on?
What if there is a certain number or completeness to the 'third'? If God made a whole and a third is missing or lost then doesn't it make sense that until every last one is found, until then the game must continue. He will not lose one!
I was also thinking of the small flock. One third is small compared to two the two thirds. We are the small flock.
Also where Jesus says He has other sheep not of this fold or something like that, that He must take care of. The 2/3rds are not complete without us. They can't be. 1/3rd out of a whole is a big void!
cp
just as a kiln sets the clay, wouldnt the effects of the fire be what is everlasting?
just thinkin here
chuckt :mblush:
Quote from: chuckt on March 20, 2009, 04:55:17 PM
thats just crazy talk :happy3: man that is very interesting!
thanks im gonna meditate on it. woohoo. chuckt
:cloud9: Well, that would explain how I was shown "myself" speaking to myself, as an 8ft. angel with wings, if that part of us is the 3rd that fell, and also the first part that was redeemed. Blessings....
This puts a whole new slant on my viewing demons and Satan 'himself'.
'Fallen' mankind and demons seem like one and the same to me. Jesus talked with demons, bargained with them, complied with their wishes in some cases. Mans inhumanity to man cannot be any more demon like.
I tried to think how this happened, the 1/3rd becoming enmity to God. Hmmmmmmm.
God made a whole unit. It was pure marvelous in its own way. It was predictable in its own way. God went deeper into His thinking and creating processes. How to make the whole even more amazing? Hmmmmmmmm.
Cast some of this whole into a world of its own making. Let it be God for a time or think it is God. Pull back a bit and see how this whole functions on its own. Then slowly reel it all back in to make a complete, very intricate and complicated being, a Person!
cp
If we are the 1/3 have our souls/spirits been is stasis for 1000s of years?
We are all kicked from heaven at the same time yet we are born with 1000s years in between.
Or didn't the 1/3 fall at the same time and every baby is a fallen angel.
My parents must have known that when they named me WhiteWings :angel4:
Quote from: chuckt on March 20, 2009, 05:31:43 PM
just as a kiln sets the clay, wouldnt the effects of the fire be what is everlasting?
just thinkin here
chuckt :mblush:
I think the effects of the fire are everlasting because the fire is everlasting. Our God is the Eternal Fire!
Keep thinking Chuck and more important to me is, keep sharing those great thoughts!
cp
Quote from: WhiteWings on March 20, 2009, 05:47:21 PM
If we are the 1/3 have our souls/spirits been is stasis for 1000s of years?
We are all kicked from heaven at the same time yet we are born with 1000s years in between.
Or didn't the 1/3 fall at the same time and every baby is a fallen angel.
My parents must have known that when they named me WhiteWings :angel4:
:cloud9: This is one of those things where time and no time (Spirit) intersect and is going to be hard to wrap our minds around. I'm thinking......
Every baby would have to be a fallen angel. If we fell, then everything that we would produce would have to be from the same fallen state until He raises it back up again. Whoa.......the reason for us being BORN FROM ABOVE (not born again), caught back up into our mother's womb (New Jerusalem)?!!! :mshock:
Quote from: WhiteWings on March 20, 2009, 05:47:21 PM
If we are the 1/3 have our souls/spirits been is stasis for 1000s of years?
What I am thinking is that we have not been in stasis. WW, why does this madness keep going on? All the horrible things we live through generation after generation, the same horrible things.
We are being re-membered. It seems we are individual units. A many membered whole. A person. 1/3rd of this whole has been dis-membered from the whole in a sense. Until every aspect of the 1/3rd is recalled and retrofitted back into the whole, the creation of which God intends, is not complete.
So, not in stasis, but in the salvation process.
QuoteWe are all kicked from heaven at the same time yet we are born with 1000s years in between.
Not all kicked from heaven............only 1/3rd. But in a way, a whole minus a third of itself, is not a whole so in a way the whole does suffer. Maybe that's why there is so much rejoicing in heaven over ONE fallen one when it is re-membered.
Oh, I see what you may be saying. Of the 1/3rd of us, we come into the world one at a time, sometimes thousands of years apart. God is a God of order. I could almost see something of reincarnation in the works. The same evil keeps being repeated in time but so does the same salvation.
QuoteOr didn't the 1/3 fall at the same time and every baby is a fallen angel.
Babies are little angels, that's for sure but take it from me (I have 11 'little angels'), they can be little demons too!!!!!
cp
Quote from: Cardinal on March 20, 2009, 06:04:41 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on March 20, 2009, 05:47:21 PM
If we are the 1/3 have our souls/spirits been is stasis for 1000s of years?
We are all kicked from heaven at the same time yet we are born with 1000s years in between.
Or didn't the 1/3 fall at the same time and every baby is a fallen angel.
My parents must have known that when they named me WhiteWings :angel4:
:cloud9: This is one of those things where time and no time (Spirit) intersect and is going to be hard to wrap our minds around. I'm thinking......
Every baby would have to be a fallen angel. If we fell, then everything that we would produce would have to be from the same fallen state until He raises it back up again. Whoa.......the reason for us being BORN FROM ABOVE (not born again), caught back up into our mother's womb (New Jerusalem)?!!! :mshock:
Card, you're on a roll!
Tell me though, what does this possiblity do for you right now? How does it make you love God more and your neighbor more?
cp
:cloud9: I don't know, it's still sinking in....... :mshock:
:icon_flower: :icon_flower:
Good thread.
Card :icon_flower:
Ya mentioned nature , briefly maybe its my wording or lack of it, but the restoration\renewing of what was fallen , being The Soul\Spirit , that which was enmity , The Mist, veil above the land Gen 2:6, I will no longer have my spirit STRIVE with MAN\=death of the Old man ... :icon_flower:
Quote from: Taffy on March 20, 2009, 06:31:18 PM
:icon_flower: :icon_flower:
Good thread.
Card :icon_flower:
Ya mentioned nature , briefly maybe its my wording or lack of it, but the restoration\renewing of what was fallen , being The Soul\Spirit , that which was enmity , The Mist, veil above the land Gen 2:6, I will no longer have my spirit STRIVE with MAN\=death of the Old man ... :icon_flower:
Taf, your :2c: is always worth many dollars in my book.
cp
There is an electricity on this thread that is not seen so much on the others . . . someone is on the verge of a break through here . . . this is what we call revelating . . God reveals . .we simply share what is being revealed and those who receive catch afire of the same flame.
The "re-membering" . . .think . . ."communion" the purpose is to "re-member" Christ. It's fellowship with another . . relationship in each other . . .this sharing is causing the body to come together . . . to be re-membered.
Keep in mind as you continue to hover over the face of the deep of where this is all going, God based the nature of his Son within the Tabernacle . . .it's structured after the nature of Jesus. And in that, there are also three dimensions, the outer, the inner, and the holy of holies . . .and in revelation, John is told not to measure the outer as it's been handed over to the Gentiles . . .another picture of 1/3 falling to the earth . . .
But you guys are so fun to read on this . . .teach us now . . .share the things your mind can't comprehend with the rest of us . . .scatter these seeds of life out and let us receive them into our own spirits so they can then be planted and birthed into our understanding as well.
Quote from: claypot on March 20, 2009, 06:17:40 PM
Tell me though, what does this possiblity do for you right now? How does it make you love God more and your neighbor more?
cp
Let me comment on my own question.
First of all if what I am learning of God does not help in a very real way then it's worthless. I do understand that lessons take time to penetrate our defenses or sink into our good soil but I try to look into the future as it were and see how something could help.
OK, this idea of we are the 1/3rd makes feel much more a part of the whole scheme of things. Makes me feel more intimate with it all. I mean, the 2/3rds are my real family in a real way.
Also I feel more connected in some way. Like a very real part of me (2/3rds) is in the Kingdom right now, pulling for me. If I have 2/3rds of all created angels pulling for me then I'm in good hands.
This makes me understand a bit more about why all goes on and on and on and on with really no rhyme or reason. Now I see that, until every last 'angel' is brought home then all will keep going on.
It helps me see God as more of a family man. Also as a God who will never leave 'a man' behind, never.
It is not an us and them thing here. It is an us and us thing. We are all pulling for each other. The 2/3rds need us to be whole as much as we need them.
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.
cp
Quote from: Cardinal on March 20, 2009, 06:04:41 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on March 20, 2009, 05:47:21 PM
If we are the 1/3 have our souls/spirits been is stasis for 1000s of years?
We are all kicked from heaven at the same time yet we are born with 1000s years in between.
Or didn't the 1/3 fall at the same time and every baby is a fallen angel.
My parents must have known that when they named me WhiteWings :angel4:
:cloud9: This is one of those things where time and no time (Spirit) intersect and is going to be hard to wrap our minds around. I'm thinking......
Every baby would have to be a fallen angel. If we fell, then everything that we would produce would have to be from the same fallen state until He raises it back up again. Whoa.......the reason for us being BORN FROM ABOVE (not born again), caught back up into our mother's womb (New Jerusalem)?!!! :mshock:
5And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
6And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
14And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
15And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
16And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
17And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
--Rev 12
This is the story of my life rofl. :msealed:
:cloud9: Ok, so back meditating on this thread again.....so if the spirit being caught back up into our mother's womb, then that would necessitate being being birthed out of that reality, which would be the blood (Spirit) part of, "coming both from the water (flesh) and the blood".
I know this blood to be produced from the rending of the second veil which is the Spirit of CHRIST in us, that comes from laying the INNER court 5 fold titles and giftings on the altar of incense (Holy incense COMPOUNDED from 5 ingredients).
This corresponds to the morning/left hand incense offering (9am when they took flesh of Him) and the evening/right hand incense offering (3pm when He gave up his SPIRIT).
As a side note; it was customary for the Priest to say, "It is finished" when completing his duties. Still thinking here......Blessings.....
And the smoke of the incense, [which came] with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand. 5 And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast [it] into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake. {into: or, upon} 6 And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound. 7 The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up. 8 And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood; 9 And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed. 10 And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters; 11 And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter. 12 And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise. 13 And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound! rev8.4
This is speaking big time to me!
cp
and there was sitting a certain youth, by name Eutychus, upon the window--being borne down by a deep sleep, Paul discoursing long--he having sunk down from the sleep, fell down from the third story,and was taken up dead. acts20.9
I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.2cor12.2
And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:1cor15.4
He saith unto him the third time, Simon, [son] of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me?jn21.17
159 references with a third being emphasized. Hmmmmmmmm.
cp
For me, in Revelation, the 1/3 of things destroyed is that 1/3 part that makes us, us. The nature of the carnal mind is destroyed . . in doing so, the mind becomes renewed . . .the old is restored back to innocense and enabled once again to live in the garden where we will once again walk with God in the Spirit of the day . . .incidentally, that's actually depicting Christ . . he is the Day Star . .He is the Light of the world . . . we walk in the essence of Jesus.
It's THESE kinds of thoughts I believe were to be filling our minds with . . .not religiousness and memorization of Scripture . . .but simply bringing our mind to a place of quiet and "let" our spirit begin traveling into the regions beyond thinking and into the heavenlies.
Quote from: Nathan on March 20, 2009, 09:18:17 PM
For me, in Revelation, the 1/3 of things destroyed is that 1/3 part that makes us, us. The nature of the carnal mind is destroyed . . in doing so, the mind becomes renewed . . .the old is restored back to innocense and enabled once again to live in the garden where we will once again walk with God in the Spirit of the day . . .incidentally, that's actually depicting Christ . . he is the Day Star . .He is the Light of the world . . . we walk in the essence of Jesus.
It's THESE kinds of thoughts I believe were to be filling our minds with . . .not religiousness and memorization of Scripture . . .but simply bringing our mind to a place of quiet and "let" our spirit begin traveling into the regions beyond thinking and into the heavenlies.
:thumbsup:
Psalm 104:30Thou sendest forth thy SPIRIT, THEY are CREATED: and thou
RENEWEST the face of the earth.
spoken in Genisis.7th day
Gen 2:6 But there went up a
mist from the earth, and
watered the whole face of the ground. Repeated
Jhn 20:22 And when he had said this,
he breathed on [them], and saith unto them,
Receive ye the Holy Ghost :icon_flower:
From the mist of the earth . . .the spirit rises up from within my earth the glory rises up from within and it washes the face . . .it cleanses with clarity of who we really are . . .it washes the face of the ground . . .it removes all of the dirt, the lies, the deceit, the darkness . . .and illuminates that we are the sons of God.
Quote from: Nathan on March 20, 2009, 09:58:01 PM
From the mist of the earth . . .the spirit rises up from within my earth the glory rises up from within and it washes the face . . .it cleanses with clarity of who we really are . . .it washes the face of the ground . . .it removes all of the dirt, the lies, the deceit, the darkness . . .and illuminates that we are the sons of God.
:icon_flower:
Quote from: Nathan on March 20, 2009, 09:58:01 PM
From the mist of the earth . . .the spirit rises up from within my earth the glory rises up from within and it washes the face . . .it cleanses with clarity of who we really are . . .it washes the face of the ground . . .it removes all of the dirt, the lies, the deceit, the darkness . . .and illuminates that we are the sons of God.
The face as the part that turns.
And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. --Gen 1
"face"H6440
פּנים
pânîympaw-neem'
Plural (but always used as a singular) of an unused noun (פּנה pâneh, paw-neh'; from 6437);
the face (as the part that turns); used in a great variety of applications
:cloud9: To become one with that which does not turn, ie. in Him there is no shadow of turning.....
James 1:17
Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.
Quote from: Nathan on March 20, 2009, 09:18:17 PM
For me, in Revelation, the 1/3 of things destroyed is that 1/3 part that makes us, us. The nature of the carnal mind is destroyed . . in doing so, the mind becomes renewed . . .the old is restored back to innocense and enabled once again to live in the garden where we will once again walk with God in the Spirit of the day . . .incidentally, that's actually depicting Christ . . he is the Day Star . .He is the Light of the world . . . we walk in the essence of Jesus.
It's THESE kinds of thoughts I believe were to be filling our minds with . . .not religiousness and memorization of Scripture . . .but simply bringing our mind to a place of quiet and "let" our spirit begin traveling into the regions beyond thinking and into the heavenlies.
That's what I'm seeing. The third of the angels that fell to me represents the carnal part of the whole but what really floors me is now I am reading all the accounts of the demons, Lucifer and Satan with new understanding. Amazing insights into who and what we are.
cp
Satan = Adversary
Devil = Traducer
Both fit my carnal mind.
:cloud9: Well, here's another one to throw out there. I haven't thought that much on it, to try to reconcile it with everything else, but when someone I knew was almost possessed (it was going down her throat) by a demon, months later when she knew and heard the Lord she asked Him where it had come from. He told her SHE had formed it from the hate and murder in her own heart. Selah. Blessings.....
Scripture doesn't actually say 1/3 of the "angels" were cast out of heaven. That is probably assumed from Rv 12:9 where, "...the great dragon was cast out, the ancient serpent called Adversary and Satan, who is deceiving the whole inhabited earth. It was cast into the earth, and its messengers were cast with it." Concerning that dragon in verse 4, "...its tail is dragging a third of the stars of heaven, and casts them into the earth." This is the passage that is used to say 1/3 of the angels were cast "out of heaven," though cast "into the earth" could be another thing. Anyway, it's in the midst of Rv 12, the portion about the woman birthing the Manchild. While the devils angels are cast out of heaven with him, what is written is 1/3 of the stars, not 1/3 of the angels, are cast into the earth by his tail. (It is estimated that with particularly good visibility over 100,000 stars are visible in the night sky, though how many in total would be incalcuable)
The first explanation of what the stars are is:
Genesis 1:14-18, (AV)...
14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,
18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.
The second explanation of "stars" is God's Word to Abraham:
Gn 15:5-6, (AV)...
5 "And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.
6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness."
This meaning is reiterated several times.
For the dreams Joseph (lit., "Increaser") already had, "... his brethren said to him, Shalt thou indeed reign over us? or shalt thou indeed have dominion over us? And they hated him yet the more for his dreams, and for his words. (Gn 37:8, AV) Then occurs additional refinements on the meanings off "star." Here it means the "Patriarchs":
Genesis 37:9-11, (AV)...
9 And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars {which would be 12 stars, including himself} made obeisance to me.
10 And he told it to his father, and to his brethren: and his father rebuked him, and said unto him, What is this dream that thou hast dreamed? Shall I and thy mother and thy brethren indeed come to bow down ourselves to thee to the earth?
11 And his brethren envied him; but his father observed the saying.
Probably the 4 and 20 elders (Rv 4:10) represent the 12 Patriarchs plus the 12 Apostles. Now notice, back in Rv 12, the woman has, "...on her head a wreath of twelve stars." (vs.1) Though there were at least 34 or 35 named apostles in the N.T. (according the Herbert Lockyear) this can be understood as the 12 Apostles of the Lamb. For her (60 fold company), authority is understood as external, referrential and historical. "The moon is underneath her feet" (vs.1) indicates a 30 fold company who face earthward and who's path is determined by the gravity of the earth, for whom she is the authority. But the Manchild (100 fold company) holds a rod of iron. For this vessel, authority is vested in him, being "snatched" ("possessed") "...to God and His throne." This Manchild, "...is about to be shepherding all the nations (vs.5)
I see the 12 as being government . . not specific people, but govenment in general . . .
I just now did a quick search on numbers . . .copied and pasted the first one I opened up . . .I've done some searching in this before and have found most of the charts are very similar. But it helps with the keys of understanding patterns . . .it's not about placing people in the puzzle . . . seeing the 12 means government and the fact that it's a wreath wrapped around one's head . . .speaks to me that it's a renewed mind . . .a new government upon our shoulders . . .
One Beginning, one
Two Witness, separation
Three The Godhead
Four Earth, creation, world
Five Grace, cross, atonement, life
Six Man, beast, Satan
Seven Perfection, completeness
Eight New beginning
Nine Completeness, finality, fulness
Ten Law, government, restoration
Eleven Incompleteness, disorganization, disintegration
Twelve Divine government, apostolic fulness
Thirteen Rebellion, backsliding, apostacy.
Fourteen Passover
Seventeen Spiritual order
Twenty-four Priestly courses; governmental perfection
Thirty Consecration; maturity for ministry
Forty Probation, testing, closing in victory or judgment
Fifty Pentecost, liberty, freedom, jubilee
Seventy Prior to increase
Seventy-five Separation, cleansing, purification
One hundred twenty End of all flesh, beginning life in the Spirit
One hundred forty-four God's ultimate in creation
One hundred fifty-three Revival, the elect
Three hundred Faithful remnant
Six hundred sixty-six Antichrist, Satan, the damned Triplicate 666