The Sea of Glass

[WhiteWings]

:cloud9: Not trying to butt in, but Willie got a recent revelation on that which he shared under the, "2Thessonians 2:10-12; will these people be saved?" thread

I'll try to read it.
Usually I just skip everything willie writes. Not because he's wrong. I can't judge that because somehow I loose track after about 5 words  :sigh:

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: I understand. Willie's deep and I have to read and re-read his posts at least twice before they "click" sometimes. Sometimes they don't "click" even then, and I put them "on a shelf" and come back to them, and usually by then He has "made a place" for me and I can hear it with the ear of the Spirit. Blessings....

[jesushandsarekindhands]

Whitewings you said
and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

What does it mean after this passage where it says that the smoke over their tomernt rises for ever and ever and there is no rest day or night who worships the beast and his image?  In my NIV bible it sounds like eternal torment again, can you shed light on this?

I would say get a proper translated Bible  :laughing7:

(CLV)  And the fumes of their torment are ascending for the eons of the eons. And they are having no rest day and night, those worshiping the wild beast and its image, and if anyone is getting the emblem of its name.

(EngSinaiticus)  and the smoke of their torment ascends from age to age; and they who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name, have no rest day or night.

(Darby)  And the smoke of their torment goes up to ages of ages, and they have no respite day and night who do homage to the beast and to its image, and if any one receive the mark of its name.

(Diaglott-NT)  And smoke of the torment of them for ages of ages rises up; and not they have rest day and night those worshipping the wild-beast and the image of him, and if any one receives the mark of the name of him.

(GDBY_NT)  And the smoke of their torment, ascends up into ages of ages: and they have no rest day and night, who worship the beast and his image, and if any one receives the mark of his name.

(Rotherham) And, the smoke of their torment, unto ages of ages, ascendeth; And they have no rest day or night, who do homage unto the beast and his image, or if anyone receiveth the mark of his name.

(RNT)  And the smoke of their torture will ascend for ages of ages and they will have no rest day or night — those who worship the Beast and his image, and any one who receives the mark of his name."

(WNT)  And the smoke of their torment goes up until the Ages of the Ages; and the worshipers of the Wild Beast and his statue have no rest day or night, nor has any one who receives the mark of his name.

(YLT)  and the smoke of their torment doth go up to ages of ages; and they have no rest day and night, who are bowing before the beast and his image, also if any doth receive the mark of his name.

Lol!  ...Youll kick me...but what is or how long is an age of age? or eon of eons?  I just dont get it...sometimes it means forever???

Ive just found this online and read it but.....its still not sinking in lol!

The Eons of the Bible
With Concordance


THE TEACHING OF THE SCRIPTURES about the eons provides answers to frustrating questions concerning the meaning of human existence. God's purpose in creating man, and God's purpose of the eons are inseparably related. Many are unfamiliar with this important subject because the facts have been concealed by incorrect and misleading translations of the Bible from the original languages into English.
   The eons are the longest periods of time referred to in the Scriptures. Time-wise they are of indefinite duration, but event-wise they are distinctly marked off by great cataclysms which affect the whole earth.

FACTS REVEALED CONCERNING THE EONS

THE EONS HAVE A BEGINNING
Literal Translation                                King James
 Heb.1:2      God made the eons      God made the worlds
 1Cor.2:7      before the eons      before the world
 2 Tim.1:9      before times eonian      before the world began


THE EONS END, INDIVIDUALLY AND COLLECTIVELY
 Heb.9:26      the end of the eons      the end of the world
 1Cor.10:11      the end of the eons      the ends of the world
 Matt.24:3      the end of the eon      the end of the world


HOW MANY EONS ARE THERE?
 Col.1:26      hid from the eons      Past      hid from ages
 Luke 20:34      this eon      Present      this world
 Eph.2:7      eons to come      Future      ages to come

A minimum of five eons indicated

THE PURPOSE OF THE EONS
 Eph.3:8-11
 Eph.1:9-11; Phil.2:9-11
 Col.1:15-21      purpose of the eons      eternal purpose


  The words "eon" and "eonian" occur 199 times in the New Testament.  They are translated as follows in the King James Version:

 aion     or    eon    
aionios or eonian
 Ages      2      Never      7      Everlasting      25
 Course      1      Evermore      4      Eternal      42
 World      40      Eternal      2      World      3
 Ever      72            Ever      1


  The fact that the same word translated "for ever"; "ever-lasting," and "eternal" is also translated "world" is a shocking surprise to many believers.  Had God meant "world" in these places He would have used the Greek word "kosmos" which means world.  In the best literal translations the words "aion" and "aionios" are consistently rendered "age" and "age-abiding" or transliterated "eon" and "eonian." See Rotherham's Emphasized Version; Young's Literal Translation; or The Concordant Literal New Testament.
  God made the eons (Heb.1:2) and fitted them out (Heb.11:3) for the accomplishing of His purpose (Eph.3:8-11; 1:9-11).  During the eonian times, sin, suffering and death enter God's creation, serve their purpose and are abolished by Jesus Christ (1Tim.4:9-11; Col.1:20; 1Cor.15:22-28; Rom.5:18,19; Phil. 2:9-11; John 12:32,33; 1John 3:8).
  The existence of God is not confined to the eons.  He made the eons; therefore, He existed before they began.  At the conclusion of the eons Jesus Christ will do away with sin (Heb.9:26) and will abolish death (1 Cor.15:22-26).  All will then be subjected to God and God will be All in all (1 Cor.15:27,28).  Therefore, God continues to exist after the eons have ended.  The statement "from everlasting to everlasting thou art God" (Psa.90:2) is literally "from age to age thou art God." This does not limit God's existence to the eons any more than the statement, "I am the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob" (Ex.3:6), excludes Him from being the God of others also.  The same is true of the reference to Him as "the eonian God" (Rom.16:25,26).
   During the present wicked eon (Gal.1:4), Sin reigns, Satan who is said to be "the god of this eon" (2 Cor.4:4) blinds and deceives mankind, and death swallows up the race (1 Cor.15:22).  But notwithstanding, God is over all and is in supreme control.  He is the eonian God.  In due time He will deliver the entire creation and bring good out of all the suffering mankind is called upon to endure (Rom.8;18-23).
  Neither is it true that if the eons end, the life of believers in Christ must end.  Believers do receive eonian life.  But if this is all that God promised, there would be no assurance of life beyond the eons.  However, at the end of the eons God abolishes death from His universe (1 Cor.15:26).  This is accomplished by imparting the resurrection life of Christ to all who have not previously received it.  Eonian life assures one of life up to that point.  Beyond that, death is impossible.  Furthermore, believers are made immortal when the Lord returns (1 Cor.15:50-57).  When one has been made immortal, death is impossible.
  In the Greek Scriptures endlessness is never expressed in terms of eons or of that which is eonian.  The Scriptures never speak of "the endless eons of eternity."  Endlessness is expressed by the use of negatives: "not," "no not," "un," "less." For example: "Of His kingdom there shall be no end" ouk estai telos (Luke 1:33); "endless life" akatalutou (Heb.7:16); "endless genealogies" aperantois (1 Tim.1:4); "nevermore" ou me eti (Rev.18:21-23).

COMPLETE CONCORDANCE
The Noun "Aion" and its Adjective "Aionios"
Translated, Eon and Eonian

EON IN THE SINGULAR

  1. The present eon – Gal.1:4; 1Tim.6:17: 2Tim.4:10; Titus 2:12 (world)
  2. This eon – Matt.12:32; 13:22; Mk.4:19; Lu.16:8; 20:34; Rom.12:2; 1 Cor.1:20; 2:6, 6, 8; 3:18; 2 Cor.4:4; Eph.1:21; 6:12 (world)
  3. The eon of this world – Eph.2:2 (course of this world).
  4. From the eon – Matt.21:19; Mk.11:14; Lu.1:55; Jn.6:51,58; 8:35; 12:34; 14:16; 2 Cor.9:9; Hb.5:6; 6:20; 7:17, 21; 1 Pet.1:23,25; 2 Pet.2:17; 1 Jn.2:17; 2 Jn.2; Jude 13 (forever); Heb.7:24 (ever); 7:28 (for evermore); 1 Cor.8:13 (while the world standeth).
  5. Not for the eon – Mk.3:29; Jn.4:14; 8:51, 52; 10:28; 11:26; 13:8 (never).
  6. Before all the eon – Jude 25a (K.J. omits) R.V. "before all time."
  7. From the eon – Lk.1:70; Acts 3:21 (since the world began); Acts 15;18 (from the beginning for the world; Out of the eon – Jn.9:32 (since the world began).
  8. The conclusion of the eon – Matt.13:39,40,49; 24:3; 28:20 (the end of the world).
  9. The coming eon – Mk.10:30; Lk.18:30; Heb.6:5 (world); that eon Lk.20:35 (that world).
 10. For the day of the eon – 2Pet.3:18 (for ever). Compare Deut.32:7; Mic.5:2; 7:14; Mal.3:4.


EON IN THE PLURAL

  1. God made the eons – Heb.1:2; equipped the eons – Heb.11:3 (worlds).
  2. Purpose of the eons – Eph.3:11; King of the eons – 1 Tim.1:17 (eternal).
  3. Before the eons – 1 Cor.2:7 (before the world); From the eons – Eph.3:9 (from the beginning of the world); Col.1:26 (from ages).
  4. For the eons – Matt.6;13; Lk.1:33; Rom.1:25; 9:5; 11:36; 16:27; Heb.13:8 (for ever); 2Cor.11:32 (for evermore); for all the eons – Jude 25 (ever). "All" omitted in some MSS.
  5. The on-coming eons – Eph.2:7 (ages to come).
  6. Conclusion of the eons – Heb.9:26 (end of the world). R.V. "end of the ages."
  7. Ends of the eons – 1 Cor.10:11 (ends of the world). R.V. "ends of the ages."



EON TWICE IN THE SAME PHRASE

  1. The eons of the eons – Gal.1:5; Phil.4:20; 1 Tim.1:17; 2Tim.4:18; Heb.13:21; 1 Pet.4:11; 5:11; Rev.1:6; 4:9,10; 5:13,14; 7:12; 10:6; 11:15; 14:11; 15:7; 19:3; 20:10; 22:5 (for ever and ever); Rev.1:18 (for evermore). A comparison of Rev.11:14,15 with 1 Cor.15:27,28 makes it clear that the expression "the eons of the eons" does not mean an endless succession of eons.  Christ reigns for "the eons of the eons" after which He delivers up the Kingdom to the Father and Himself becomes subject that God may be all in all.
  2. The eon of the eons – for all the generations of, Eph.3:21 (throughout all ages, world without end). In the K.J. version the Greek word for "generations" is wrongly translated "ages" in this passage.  The eon of the eons is the last and greatest eon of them all.  In it God's saving purpose is brought to its climax and consummation in the Salvation of all.
  3. The eon of the eon – Heb.1:8 (for ever and ever).  This is a reference to the last eon which issues out of the one which preceeds it.


THE ADJECTIVE EONIAN
words in parenthesis ( ) below = K.J.V.

  1. Before eonian times – 2 Tim.1:9; Titus 1:2 (before the world began).
  2. In eonian times – Rom.16:25 (since the world began).
  3. Eonian life – Matt.19:29; Lk.18:30; Jn.3:15,16,36; 4:14; 5:24; 6:27,40,47; 12:50; Acts 13:46; Rom.6:22; Gal.6:8; 1 Tim.1:16 (everlasting); Matt.19:16; 25:46; Mk.10:17, 30; Lk.10:25; 18:18; Jn.4:36; 5:39; 6:54,68; 10:28; 12:25; 17:2,3; Acts 13:48; Rom.2:7; 5:21; 6:23; 1 Tim.6:12; Titus 1:2; 3:7; 1 Jn.1:2; 2:25; 3:15; 5:11,13,20; Jude 21 (eternal).
  4. Eonian redemption – Hebrews 9:12 (eternal).
  5. Eonian salvation – Hebrews 5:9 (eternal).
  6. Eonian glory – 2 Cor.4:17; 2 Tim.2:10; 1 Pet.5:10 (eternal).
  7. Eonian kingdom – 2 Peter 1:11 (everlasting).
  8. Eonian inheritance – Hebrews 9:15 (eternal).
  9. Eonian "things not seen" – 2 Corinthians 4:18 (eternal).
 10. Eonian house – 2 Corinthians 5:1 (eternal).
 11. Eonian habitations – Luke 16:9 (everlasting).
 12. Eonian consolation – 2 Thessalonians 2:16 (everlasting).
 13. Eonian covenant – Hebrews 13:20 (everlasting).
 14. Eonain gospel – Revelation 14:6 (everlasting).
 15. Eonian God – Romans 16:26 (everlasting).
 16. Eonian Spirit – Hebrews 9:14 (eternal).
 17. Eonian power – 1 Timothy 6:16 (everlasting).
 18. Eonian judgment – Hebrews 6:2 (eternal)
 19. Eonian condemnation – Mark 3:29 (eternal damnation).
 20. Eonian fire – Matthew 18:8; 25:41 (everlasting); Jude 7 (eternal fire).
 21. Eonian chastening – Matthew 25:46 (everlasting).
 22. Eonian extermination – 2 Thessalonians 1:9 (everlasting).
 23. Eonian – Philemon 1:15 (for ever).

    This outline was adapted from one prepared by the late scholar, Alexander Thompson of Edinburgh, Scotland.

[jesushandsarekindhands]

:cloud9: Not trying to butt in, but Willie got a recent revelation on that which he shared under the, "2Thessonians 2:10-12; will these people be saved?" thread on that, which was so good and so obvious, (except for the fact we're having to unlearn some of the things of Babylon to keep from seeing things the same way, so couldn't see it)......

"and THE smoke OF the TORMENTS rise up forever... It is the TORMENTS which are burning up in THIS LIFE, never to be suffered again EVER! ...and that TIME is the FIRE in which we (in our varying  torments) BURN..."

Blessings......

Thanks Card, i long for the day this all makes sense to me, i really must get a properly translated bible sometime very soon.

[WhiteWings]

Lol!  ...Youll kick me...but what is or how long is an age of age? or eon of eons?

No one knows. It's the Greek variant of teh Hebrew O(w)lam. An Hebrew scholars define it as a period that only God know the end of. Can mean about anything. There are verses that define the lenght of a mans life as olam.
Or the slave that has a awl pierced what slave forever/owlam/eon

I just dont get it...sometimes it means forever???

I think the vast majority of verses do not have unending duration.
Possibly even none.



Aion means period
Aion usually is translated as eternal or everlasting but as the examples below shows clearly show that's is wrong. But if translated by for example age it works out fine.

Just a quick copy amd paste from my PIM. Sorry fort the bad layout.

In the examples below it's a limited act with everlasting effect.
Jude 1:6            .... he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. => everlasting ends at the great day
Jude 1:7                 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha .... suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.=> the cities stopped burning long ago.
Isaiah 34:9-10     .... shall become burning pitch. It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up for ever => Edom doesn't burn anymore
Hebrews 5:9            And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; => became is a one time act.
Hebrews 9:12     .... but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us. => The 'entering' ended but the salvation lasts.
Hebrews 9:28          So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Now, as an example, lets translated aionis to eternity in every verse and see if it makes sense
2 Timothy 1:9   ...  which was given us in Christ Jesus before the eternity began => there can be nothing before eternity.
Romans 16:25  .... which was kept secret since the eternity began,  => there can be nothing before eternity.
Matthew 13:39  The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of eternity => eternity has no end
Hebrews 6:5  And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of eternity to come, => eternity can't come because it is without beginning.
Romans 16:26  .... according to the commandment of the everlasting God => God of this time. Meaning God who created time.

There is "the coming eon" (Matt.10:30, Luke 18:30
There is "the present wicked eon" (Gal.1:4)
There is "the oncoming eons (future)(Eph.2:7)
There is "the conclusion of the eon (present) (Mt.13:39,40)
There is "the secret concealed from the eons (past) (Eph.3:9)

Revelation 20:10  ... and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. (aion and aion)
Why stating this when 'aion' is supposed to mean eternity?
If the noun 'aion' means eternity why is there a plural 'aionios' form? There can't be multiple eternities.
=> for the meaning of torment see the "Judgment=Grace" chapter


Verses showing aion with a limited duration
1) BEFORE THE AGES (or AGE) - 1Cor.2:7; 2Tim.1:9; Titus 1:2; Rom.16:25.
2) PRESENT AGE (singular) - Gal.1:4; I Tim. 6:17; 2Tim.4:10; Titus 2:12.
3) THIS AGE (singular) - Luke 16:8; 1Cor.1:20; 2:6-8; Rom.12:2; Eph.2:2.
4) END OF AGE (singular) - Matt.13:39,40; 24:3 [The end of an age is clearly shown in these verses.]
5) END OF THE AGES (i.e. relative to the existence of SIN) - Heb.9:26 [Ages, in the plural come to an end.]
6) THE COMING AGE (singular) - Matt.12:32: Mark 10:30; Luke 18:30; Eph.1:21; Heb.6:5 [The coming age will begin at the Second Coming of Christ.]
7) AGES (plural) TO COME - Eph.2:7 [More ages are to begin in the future.]
8) FUTURE AGES (plural) - Luke 1:33; Heb.13:8.
9) PLAN OF THE AGES (plural) - Eph.3:11; Heb.1:2; 11:3.
10) AGE OF THE AGE - Heb.1:8 (Also the rendering of the LXX) [Note that both words are in the singular here.]
11) AGE OF THE AGES - Eph.3:21 (Note that the first word is singular followed by a plural.)
12) AGES OF THE AGES (not eternal when all Bible contexts compared) - Rev.14:11; 19:3 [Note the plural of both words.]
13) THERE WILL BE FUTURE AGES - Jude25.
14) THE DISPENSATION OF THE FULLNESS OF TIMES - Eph.1:10 [This describes the final period for salvation


Strong
165 aivw,n aion {ahee-ohn'}
Meaning: 
for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity
the worlds, universe
period of time, age


Bit off-topic but you might like the book of David and Zoë Sulem.
Just $3 shipping costs. Don't forget to ask them when then post on this forum again....
http://www.godsplanforall.com/site/1351515/product/1

[jesushandsarekindhands]

Lol!  ...Youll kick me...but what is or how long is an age of age? or eon of eons?

No one knows. It's the Greek variant of teh Hebrew O(w)lam. An Hebrew scholars define it as a period that only God know the end of. Can mean about anything. There are verses that define the lenght of a mans life as olam.
Or the slave that has a awl pierced what slave forever/owlam/eon

I just dont get it...sometimes it means forever???

I think the vast majority of verses do not have unending duration.
Possibly even none.



Aion means period
Aion usually is translated as eternal or everlasting but as the examples below shows clearly show that's is wrong. But if translated by for example age it works out fine.

Just a quick copy amd paste from my PIM. Sorry fort the bad layout.

In the examples below it's a limited act with everlasting effect.
Jude 1:6            .... he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. => everlasting ends at the great day
Jude 1:7                 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha .... suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.=> the cities stopped burning long ago.
Isaiah 34:9-10     .... shall become burning pitch. It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up for ever => Edom doesn't burn anymore
Hebrews 5:9            And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; => became is a one time act.
Hebrews 9:12     .... but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us. => The 'entering' ended but the salvation lasts.
Hebrews 9:28          So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Now, as an example, lets translated aionis to eternity in every verse and see if it makes sense
2 Timothy 1:9   ...  which was given us in Christ Jesus before the eternity began => there can be nothing before eternity.
Romans 16:25  .... which was kept secret since the eternity began,  => there can be nothing before eternity.
Matthew 13:39  The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of eternity => eternity has no end
Hebrews 6:5  And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of eternity to come, => eternity can't come because it is without beginning.
Romans 16:26  .... according to the commandment of the everlasting God => God of this time. Meaning God who created time.

There is "the coming eon" (Matt.10:30, Luke 18:30
There is "the present wicked eon" (Gal.1:4)
There is "the oncoming eons (future)(Eph.2:7)
There is "the conclusion of the eon (present) (Mt.13:39,40)
There is "the secret concealed from the eons (past) (Eph.3:9)

Revelation 20:10  ... and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. (aion and aion)
Why stating this when 'aion' is supposed to mean eternity?
If the noun 'aion' means eternity why is there a plural 'aionios' form? There can't be multiple eternities.
=> for the meaning of torment see the "Judgment=Grace" chapter


Verses showing aion with a limited duration
1) BEFORE THE AGES (or AGE) - 1Cor.2:7; 2Tim.1:9; Titus 1:2; Rom.16:25.
2) PRESENT AGE (singular) - Gal.1:4; I Tim. 6:17; 2Tim.4:10; Titus 2:12.
3) THIS AGE (singular) - Luke 16:8; 1Cor.1:20; 2:6-8; Rom.12:2; Eph.2:2.
4) END OF AGE (singular) - Matt.13:39,40; 24:3 [The end of an age is clearly shown in these verses.]
5) END OF THE AGES (i.e. relative to the existence of SIN) - Heb.9:26 [Ages, in the plural come to an end.]
6) THE COMING AGE (singular) - Matt.12:32: Mark 10:30; Luke 18:30; Eph.1:21; Heb.6:5 [The coming age will begin at the Second Coming of Christ.]
7) AGES (plural) TO COME - Eph.2:7 [More ages are to begin in the future.]
8) FUTURE AGES (plural) - Luke 1:33; Heb.13:8.
9) PLAN OF THE AGES (plural) - Eph.3:11; Heb.1:2; 11:3.
10) AGE OF THE AGE - Heb.1:8 (Also the rendering of the LXX) [Note that both words are in the singular here.]
11) AGE OF THE AGES - Eph.3:21 (Note that the first word is singular followed by a plural.)
12) AGES OF THE AGES (not eternal when all Bible contexts compared) - Rev.14:11; 19:3 [Note the plural of both words.]
13) THERE WILL BE FUTURE AGES - Jude25.
14) THE DISPENSATION OF THE FULLNESS OF TIMES - Eph.1:10 [This describes the final period for salvation


Strong
165 aivw,n aion {ahee-ohn'}
Meaning: 
for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity
the worlds, universe
period of time, age


Bit off-topic but you might like the book of David and Zoë Sulem.
Just $3 shipping costs. Don't forget to ask them when then post on this forum again....
http://www.godsplanforall.com/site/1351515/product/1

Thanks a lot.
Ill leave the book just now, seriously i have folder of printouts from this website and others to go through just now.