QuoteAnd so the writer of the Apocalypse points to the Temple lava - a large bronze basin containing water - and calls it the Lake of Fire. What this picture is supposed to portray is the Refiner's Fire, complete with the cauldron of alloyed mineral and its impurities, as Yahweh the Refiner begins His work. John, who we have every good reason to believe was a Priest and therefore Levite, was intimately familiar with all the rites and ceremonies of the Temple in Jerusalem. Polycrates, a later Bishop of Ephesus, where John also ministered, testified:
"For great luminaries sleep in Asia, and they will rise again at the last day of the advent of the Master ... And there is also John, who leaned on the Master's breast, who was a priest wearing the mitre, and martyr and teacher, and he sleeps at Ephesus" (Eccl.Hist., III, xxxi).
This word 'mitre', which might give the false impression of a Roman Catholic bishop's hat, is in fact the petalon which is used in the Septuagint of the Cohen Gadol's or High Priest's diadem. When Eusebius quotes Polycrates he uses the word 'breastplate' for petalon which of course contained precious stones, one for each of the twelve tribes of Israel. What's clear is that John was viewed as a kind of 'High Priest' in Ephesus in subsequent generations since he was the Presiding Patriarch and senior apostle.
Both the Tabernacle of Moses and the Temple of Solomon used water in their lavers, rather than molten gold. Yet the water was meant to symbolise molten gold. Gold, scripturally, is always the divine nature, and so the lava itself would portray Yahweh's refining process. In our fleshy state, we could not survive a baptism of fiery gold, and so water baptism had to become the substitute and type of the true baptism of fire.
Now in the days of Solomon's Temple, the lava was called the "molten sea" (1 Ki.7:23). Did you know that when gold is refined to its absolutely pure state, that molten gold is completely transparent? It's as clear as crystal! So if Solomon had filled the Temple's lava or 'molten sea' with pure gold and melted it, it would have looked like "a sea of glass like crystal" (Rev.4:6), just like John described it in his vision! And do you remember how John described it later on in Revelation 15:2?
"I saw in heaven another great and marvellous sign: seven angels with the seven last plagues - last, because with them Yahweh's wrath is completed. And I saw what looked like a sea of glass mixed with fire and, standing beside the sea, those who had been victorious over the beast and his image and over the number of his name. They held harps given them by Elohim and sang the song of Moses the servant of Elohim and the song of the Lamb" (Rev.15:1-3, NIV).
What John saw in heaven was the lava, the lake of fire, as pictured in the Tabernacle and the Temple of Solomon.. The lava was used to wash or baptise in order to be cleansed, or purified ceremonially. The purpose of the Torah or Law, as we have seen, was to teach righteousness to the inhabitants of the earth. The purpose of fire is to purify. So it really doesn't strain our imagination too much to consider both the lava and the lake of fire to be for the purpose of divine purification, rather than a place where men and women are tortured forever.
We are forced to the inevitable conclusion in simply letting scripture explain itself, that the Lake of Fire is the final place where Yahweh, the Great Refiner, sits to purify the hearts of men and women and so prepare them to dwell in the new heaven (2 Pet.3:13; Rev.21:1) when this current world and heaven all pass away.
Excerpt from:
http://www.nccg.org/mlt/sermons/3_065.html
This article, obviously (lol), suggests that the Lake of Fire is represented as corresponding to the Temple Lava which was used to purify. I've also heard, although I can't remember if it was in this article, that the book of Revelation/Apocalypse/Unveiling (all the same book) is based off that of the Jewish Temple/Solomon's Temple. (Hence why they mention John in part of this article as being familiar with priestly rituals.)
Does anybody else know anything about this idea that the book of Revelation is based off of the Jewish Temple/Solomon's Temple?
And, also, whaddya think of the excerpt of the article?
God is with you! :bigGrin:
:cloud9: I think it's singularly one of the best articles I've ever read! This just made so many things bounce around in me, but it definitely explained my dream/vision I had some years ago, of suddenly waking and though not seeing my physical body, but being AWARE that I was surrounded in lava. When I asked Him what this was, He told me it was His love, ie. the overflowing scourge that heals/makes whole whatever it touches. This just tied all this in together for me, including the lake of fire. Thanks! Blessings....
I'm glad you liked it! :)
The only problem I have with it, in retrospect, is how do these people know that the "sea of glass" is the same as the lake of fire? I can't seem to see understand. I mean, it's MIXED with fire, but does that make it the lake of fire?
I just don't want to make assumptions. xD
:cloud9: The kicker for me was reading about the gold being transparent. I already knew gold in scripture speaks of the higher nature of God, and God is a consuming fire, so not a long jump to see the sea as being the fire. Blessings....
Yes. When you can see yourself in the molten reflection — it is done.
Great article.
The refiners fire purified seven times is absolutely transparent; yet mingled with fire.
This is the heart of the gospel. Through the dealings we face, through joy and tears, we find in the end we are drawn back into our Father who has awakened us by his spirit; judged us and tried us until there is nothing left but the ecstasy of no sin; flesh. Just the absolute makeup of him in all his glory.
Beautifully written.
edifying post Tim :icon_flower:
Quote from: Beloved Servant on August 27, 2009, 03:18:14 AM
Yes. When you can see yourself in the molten reflection — it is done.
your reflection or the reflection of HIM???
chuckt.
also.
sand + fire = glass.
great website, its a keeper....
later.....
I'm just heading out the door for today, but I'll take a closer look at the original post tomorrow, but I sense an overall questioning and I'd like to throw this out to you to weigh.
Moses was instructed specifically to pay close attention to detail when masterminding the building of the tabernacle because it was a type and shadow of Christ. Everything about the tabernacle resembled Jesus nature and purpose. Even the positioning of the tribes outside the tabernacle had spiritual implications. The tribe of Judah was posted at the only entrance leading into the temple. There is only one way to the Father. Jesus is the gate, the gate is always to face the east. East speaks of the rising of the sun. Judah literally means praise . . .to enter into the tabernacle, you must come through praise.
So . . . .IF the tabernacle was a type and shadow of Christ . .then John comes along and receives a REVELATION of Jesus Christ, is it then any wonder that in the revelation, you see different properties of the tabernacle throughout the revelation? For me, they are intertwined. And even though I have not fully read this whole thread, I will tell you that the way I came into UR was through the understanding that the lake of fire is the substance, the shadow is the laver. Or, in Solomon's temple, it's called simply, the sea.
It's purpose is to cleanse the sacrificial blood from the priests in preparation of their entrance into the temple. The lake of fire is God who is the all mighty consuming fire, and the purpose of him is to purge the hell out of me (hell is thrown into the lake of fire) that I become cleansed through him from my carnality, that I may become one with him, and enter into him as he is the temple of temples. In him I live, and move, and have my "being".
So yeah, I'd have to say they're related.
good stuff Tim , and all
I thought of another article I have read called "the crystal sea" from Dayspring on high , it really good too
hope this link works for ya all ... http://www.gem-international.org/dayspring/default.htm (http://www.gem-international.org/dayspring/default.htm)
Rev 4:6 And before the throne [there was] a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, [were] four beasts full of eyes before and behind.
:HeartThrob:rose
Thanks for those links rosered, is definitely interesting.
I read one so far men walking as trees, this is something I have never heard of before.
I have always wondered what the man meant when he said I see men walking as trees.
I doubt anyone has heard this in church, or biology in school.
Quote from: SQ on September 06, 2009, 01:25:18 AM
Thanks for those links rosered, is definitely interesting.
I read one so far men walking as trees, this is something I have never heard of before.
I have always wondered what the man meant when he said I see men walking as trees.
I doubt anyone has heard this in church, or biology in school.
Hi sis SQ , Yeppers , me too have read men as trees walking , I have read most everything on this site ...
you are right about that ! never heard anything like it in church or biology LOL......... :HeartThrob:
That article on men as trees is the most indepth explanation I've ever seen. I also believe that Jesus healed that blind guy the way he did on purpose, but for most of my years, I never understood the "why" part. Until I finally saw that it was to show that Jesus was healing his spiritual condition first, then his outward condition followed.
But I've never seen the scientific relationship until this article makes it painfully clear just how relevant and reactive our natural bodies really are to spiritual principles.
Quote from: Nathan on September 09, 2009, 05:59:48 PM
That article on men as trees is the most indepth explanation I've ever seen. I also believe that Jesus healed that blind guy the way he did on purpose, but for most of my years, I never understood the "why" part. Until I finally saw that it was to show that Jesus was healing his spiritual condition first, then his outward condition followed.
But I've never seen the scientific relationship until this article makes it painfully clear just how relevant and reactive our natural bodies really are to spiritual principles.
Hi Nate ,
you are right !!!, I too believe that the spiritual man/inner man was healed by Jesus seeing correctly a sort of discerning spirit given him by the Lord :thumbsup: ¶ And he cometh to Bethsaida; and they bring a blind man unto him, and besought him to touch him.
Mar 8:23 And he took the blind man by the hand, and led him out of the town; and when he had spit on his eyes, and put his hands upon him, he
asked him if he saw ought. Mar 8:24 And he looked up, and said,
I see men as trees, walking.
Mar 8:25 After that he put [his] hands again upon his eyes,
and made him look up: and
he was restored, and saw every man clearly.
I always wondered if the trees/men were either or of the two trees
knowledge of good and evil
and or tree of life
the oak tree in the Old testament compares also to men
lots to consider and the make up of the tree and the man are uncanny
did you read the crystal sea yet bro ?
its a good read to me also but not as clear as the trees/men as men/trees walking :HeartThrob:
No, but I'll look into it now . . . :wink2:
That verse in Mark 8:25 speaking of how Jesus made this blind guy "look up". Isn't it interesting that in our natural thinking . . .seeing men as trees walking is really saying you are still vision impaired. But spiritually, it was just the opposite. Our natural logic is always the opposite from what spiritual truth really is saying.
But once Jesus got him to "look up". Someone asked on one of these threads about why was Jesus in the ground for three days . . .there is nothing Jesus did that was not done with purpose, on purpose. Three is the number of resurrection. That's who Jesus "was". He "was" (and is, and will always be) THE resurrection. This blind guy was restored once he "looked up". He received his resurrection. With the resurrection, clarity came to his understanding.
I would say "if" these trees he saw was to indicate one of the two trees of the garden, it would have to be the tree of knowledge. Had it have been the tree of life, he would have seen immediately. But the fact that clarity didn't come until after resurrection, I would then believe that what he was "seeing" was the tree of life, which is Jesus himself, "through" the tree of knowledge. But once the tree of knowledge entered into the resurrection experience, restoration came with clarity and pronouncment.
Quote from: Nathan on September 09, 2009, 09:55:44 PM
No, but I'll look into it now . . . :wink2:
That verse in Mark 8:25 speaking of how Jesus made this blind guy "look up". Isn't it interesting that in our natural thinking . . .seeing men as trees walking is really saying you are still vision impaired. But spiritually, it was just the opposite. Our natural logic is always the opposite from what spiritual truth really is saying.
But once Jesus got him to "look up". Someone asked on one of these threads about why was Jesus in the ground for three days . . .there is nothing Jesus did that was not done with purpose, on purpose. Three is the number of resurrection. That's who Jesus "was". He "was" (and is, and will always be) THE resurrection. This blind guy was restored once he "looked up". He received his resurrection. With the resurrection, clarity came to his understanding.
I would say "if" these trees he saw was to indicate one of the two trees of the garden, it would have to be the tree of knowledge. Had it have been the tree of life, he would have seen immediately. But the fact that clarity didn't come until after resurrection, I would then believe that what he was "seeing" was the tree of life, which is Jesus himself, "through" the tree of knowledge. But once the tree of knowledge entered into the resurrection experience, restoration came with clarity and pronouncment.
good thougts Nate
yes Indeed looking up , I remember Peter when he looked up and saw Jesus he could walk on water , but when he looked at the waves he sank !
I see that as spiritual too bro , as you do
we SEE JESUS ! not literally but SPIRITUALLY we SEE HIM :winkgrin:
a thankful soul :HeartThrob: rose
look up ..........
Strong's G352 - anakyptō ἀνακύπτω
Transliteration
anakyptō
Pronunciation
ä-nä-kü'p-tō (Key)
Part of Speech
verb
Root Word (Etymology)
from G303 (in the sense of reversal) and G2955
TDNT Reference
n/a
Vines
View Entry
Outline of Biblical Usage 1)
to raise or lift one's self up
a) one's body
b) one's soul1)
to be elated or exalted :icon_flower:
Quote from: Tim B on August 27, 2009, 03:01:10 AM
The only problem I have with it, in retrospect, is how do these people know that the "sea of glass" is the same as the lake of fire? I can't seem to see understand. I mean, it's MIXED with fire, but does that make it the lake of fire
Lets Dutchify this verse: ==> 2 :banana:
Sea:We have a saying translated as "a sea of people" it just means lots of people.
Several verses link the vast majority to sea/ocean. To waves of turmoil. Mainly meaning the bad things in life.
Like the whore of Babylon sitting on many seas. Meaning causing havoc among whole humanity.
Glass:
We also have an expression the sea/water is smooth as a mirror. Meaning ultra flat without even the smallest waves.
Mirror=glass
Fire:Spirits/souls are often described as flames, fire, etc
Sea of glass and fire:Now simply imagine a world without any negative thing like war, murder, hunger, etc, etc.
Wouldn't that be like a sea smooth like a mirror. The fire is us; the spirits.
And the whore of Babylon is replaced by Father, Son, Holy Spirit.
:2c:
Quote from: Tim B on August 27, 2009, 03:01:10 AMThe only problem I have with it, in retrospect, is how do these people know that the "sea of glass" is the same as the lake of fire?
Just a feeling. No verses... :mblush:
Sea=large.
Lake=small.
Sea of glass = peaceful
LoF = turmoil I think because people are cast into it. Meaning against their will. So certainly at first it won't be peaceful.
If you read THIS (http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=6864.0) thread you could conclude that sea-of-glass is the ocean with purified people. The ones in the harbor will after a while join the ones in the ocean.
So IMO the sea of glass is
not LoF
:cloud9: My :2c:.......lake in Hebrew means "harbor" or "safe haven". I always go back into the Hebrew even with Greek words because the NT was originally written in Hebrew and/or Aramaic so the thoughts of God did not change with the language even if the language doesn't translate quite the same.
So, I never heard of a bunch of fire being a safe haven, did you? Unless, that fire is a whole bunch of flames He makes His ministers (and we are ALL ministers) to be, as the tongues of fire come upon our heads and consumes us, because our God is a consuming fire. Salt also burns and we are to be the salt of the earth, because it both sterilizes/sanctifies and preserves.
Additionally, when we're not walking in the Spirit, we're walking thru dry places (wilderness = desert). Did you know that they have found pieces of glass in the deserts where either lightning or meteorites have hit the ground? Sand becomes fused together as glass at high temperatures.
The purpose of His fire is to ensure that anything of sandy dry walk is cleansed out of us, as by fire. The sooner we come into agreement with His Spirit on whatever is being dealt with, the sooner the "struggle" stops and the sooner there is peace. True peace is when the flesh is no longer warring against the Spirit.
So what I see is that the ones that have become so one with His Spirit that NOTHING moves them to walk in dry places anymore, become the calm harbor sea of glass that the others (flames) who are just beginning to learn to walk in His Spirit which is as fire, get cast into. So I see two; the calm and "new flames" together. Blessings.....
Quote from: Cardinal on September 26, 2009, 05:26:55 PM
:cloud9: My :2c:.......lake in Hebrew means "harbor" or "safe haven". I always go back into the Hebrew even with Greek words because the NT was originally written in Hebrew and/or Aramaic so the thoughts of God did not change with the language even if the language doesn't translate quite the same.
So, I never heard of a bunch of fire being a safe haven, did you? Unless, that fire is a whole bunch of flames He makes His ministers to be, as the tongues of fire come upon our heads and consumes us, because our God is a consuming fire. Salt also burns and we are to be the salt of the earth, because it both sterilizes/sanctifies and preserves.
Additionally, when we're not walking in the Spirit, we're walking thru dry places (wilderness = desert). Did you know that they have found pieces of glass in the deserts where either lightning or meteorites have hit the ground? Sand becomes fused together as glass at high temperatures.
The purpose of His fire is to ensure that anything of sandy dry walk is cleansed out of us, as by fire. The sooner we come into agreement with His Spirit on whatever is being dealt with, the sooner the "struggle" stops and the sooner there is peace. True peace is when the flesh is no longer warring against the Spirit.
So what I see is that the ones that have become so one with His Spirit that NOTHING moves them to walk in dry places anymore, become the calm harbor sea of glass that the others (flames) who are just beginning to learn to walk in His Spirit which is as fire, get cast into. So I see two; the calm and "new flames" together. Blessings.....
:icon_flower:
:icon_flower: :thumbsup:
Quote from: Cardinal on September 26, 2009, 05:26:55 PM
:cloud9: My :2c:.......lake in Hebrew means "harbor" or "safe haven".
Yep that's what I wrote.
QuoteSo, I never heard of a bunch of fire being a safe haven, did you? Unless, that fire is a whole bunch of flames He makes His ministers to be, as the tongues of fire come upon our heads and consumes us, because our God is a consuming fire. Salt also burns and we are to be the salt of the earth, because it both sterilizes/sanctifies and preserves.
First of all I hope the above posts made clear I was talking about spiritual fire. Not ET fire.
I think God is that refiners fire. Well read the thread I linked to.
QuoteAdditionally, when we're not walking in the Spirit, we're walking thru dry places (wilderness = desert). Did you know that they have found pieces of glass in the deserts where either lightning or meteorites have hit the ground? Sand becomes fused together as glass at high temperatures.
I'm well aware how glass is made (and recycled) It's even how wafers for computer chips are made...
QuoteSo what I see is that the ones that have become so one with His Spirit that NOTHING moves them to walk in dry places anymore, become the calm harbor sea of glass that the others (flames) who are just beginning to learn to walk in His Spirit which is as fire, get cast into. So I see two; the calm and "new flames" together. Blessings.....
Revelation 14:10 .... and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
Angels=saints=calm flames.
So I agree with you that LoF is a mixture. But I'm not so sure all cleaned people are there. Only the elect I think.
Plus LoF is a stage of the process. The goal of those cast in LoF is joining the sea of glass.
:2c:
Quote from: Cardinal on September 26, 2009, 05:26:55 PM
:cloud9: My :2c:.......lake in Hebrew means "harbor" or "safe haven". I always go back into the Hebrew even with Greek words because the NT was originally written in Hebrew and/or Aramaic so the thoughts of God did not change with the language even if the language doesn't translate quite the same.
So, I never heard of a bunch of fire being a safe haven, did you? Unless, that fire is a whole bunch of flames He makes His ministers to be, as the tongues of fire come upon our heads and consumes us, because our God is a consuming fire. Salt also burns and we are to be the salt of the earth, because it both sterilizes/sanctifies and preserves.
Additionally, when we're not walking in the Spirit, we're walking thru dry places (wilderness = desert). Did you know that they have found pieces of glass in the deserts where either lightning or meteorites have hit the ground? Sand becomes fused together as glass at high temperatures.
The purpose of His fire is to ensure that anything of sandy dry walk is cleansed out of us, as by fire. The sooner we come into agreement with His Spirit on whatever is being dealt with, the sooner the "struggle" stops and the sooner there is peace. True peace is when the flesh is no longer warring against the Spirit.
So what I see is that the ones that have become so one with His Spirit that NOTHING moves them to walk in dry places anymore, become the calm harbor sea of glass that the others (flames) who are just beginning to learn to walk in His Spirit which is as fire, get cast into. So I see two; the calm and "new flames" together. Blessings.....
Thank you Cardinal that was very relevant to me.
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 26, 2009, 05:40:44 PM
Quote from: Cardinal on September 26, 2009, 05:26:55 PM
:cloud9: My :2c:.......lake in Hebrew means "harbor" or "safe haven".
Yep that's what I wrote.
QuoteSo, I never heard of a bunch of fire being a safe haven, did you? Unless, that fire is a whole bunch of flames He makes His ministers to be, as the tongues of fire come upon our heads and consumes us, because our God is a consuming fire. Salt also burns and we are to be the salt of the earth, because it both sterilizes/sanctifies and preserves.
First of all I hope the above posts made clear I was talking about spiritual fire. Not ET fire.
I think God is that refiners fire. Well read the thread I linked to.
QuoteAdditionally, when we're not walking in the Spirit, we're walking thru dry places (wilderness = desert). Did you know that they have found pieces of glass in the deserts where either lightning or meteorites have hit the ground? Sand becomes fused together as glass at high temperatures.
I'm well aware how glass is made (and recycled) It's even how wafers for computer chips are made...
QuoteSo what I see is that the ones that have become so one with His Spirit that NOTHING moves them to walk in dry places anymore, become the calm harbor sea of glass that the others (flames) who are just beginning to learn to walk in His Spirit which is as fire, get cast into. So I see two; the calm and "new flames" together. Blessings.....
Revelation 14:10 .... and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
Angels=saints=calm flames.
So I agree with you that LoF is a mixture. But I'm not so sure all cleaned people are there. Only the elect I think.
Plus LoF is a stage of the process. The goal of those cast in LoF is joining the sea of glass.
:2c:
Whitewings you said
and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
What does it mean after this passage where it says that the smoke over their tomernt rises for ever and ever and there is no rest day or night who worships the beast and his image? In my NIV bible it sounds like eternal torment again, can you shed light on this?
Quote from: jesushandsarekindhands on September 26, 2009, 05:47:39 PM
Whitewings you said
and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
What does it mean after this passage where it says that the smoke over their tomernt rises for ever and ever and there is no rest day or night who worships the beast and his image? In my NIV bible it sounds like eternal torment again, can you shed light on this?
I would say get a proper translated Bible :laughing7:
(CLV) And the fumes of their torment are ascending for the eons of the eons. And they are having no rest day and night, those worshiping the wild beast and its image, and if anyone is getting the emblem of its name.
(EngSinaiticus) and the smoke of their torment ascends from age to age; and they who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name, have no rest day or night.
(Darby) And the smoke of their torment goes up to ages of ages, and they have no respite day and night who do homage to the beast and to its image, and if any one receive the mark of its name.
(Diaglott-NT) And smoke of the torment of them for ages of ages rises up; and not they have rest day and night those worshipping the wild-beast and the image of him, and if any one receives the mark of the name of him.
(GDBY_NT) And the smoke of their torment, ascends up into ages of ages: and they have no rest day and night, who worship the beast and his image, and if any one receives the mark of his name.
(Rotherham) And, the smoke of their torment, unto ages of ages, ascendeth; And they have no rest day or night, who do homage unto the beast and his image, or if anyone receiveth the mark of his name.
(RNT) And the smoke of their torture will ascend for ages of ages and they will have no rest day or night — those who worship the Beast and his image, and any one who receives the mark of his name."
(WNT) And the smoke of their torment goes up until the Ages of the Ages; and the worshipers of the Wild Beast and his statue have no rest day or night, nor has any one who receives the mark of his name.
(YLT) and the smoke of their torment doth go up to ages of ages; and they have no rest day and night, who are bowing before the beast and his image, also if any doth receive the mark of his name.
:cloud9: Not trying to butt in, but Willie got a recent revelation on that which he shared under the, "2Thessonians 2:10-12; will these people be saved?" thread on that, which was so good and so obvious, (except for the fact we're having to unlearn some of the things of Babylon to keep from seeing things the same way, so couldn't see it)......
"and THE smoke OF the TORMENTS rise up forever... It is the TORMENTS which are burning up in THIS LIFE, never to be suffered again EVER! ...and that TIME is the FIRE in which we (in our varying torments) BURN..."
Blessings......
Quote from: Cardinal on September 26, 2009, 05:58:36 PM
:cloud9: Not trying to butt in, but Willie got a recent revelation on that which he shared under the, "2Thessonians 2:10-12; will these people be saved?" thread
I'll try to read it.
Usually I just skip everything willie writes. Not because he's wrong. I can't judge that because somehow I loose track after about 5 words :sigh:
:cloud9: I understand. Willie's deep and I have to read and re-read his posts at least twice before they "click" sometimes. Sometimes they don't "click" even then, and I put them "on a shelf" and come back to them, and usually by then He has "made a place" for me and I can hear it with the ear of the Spirit. Blessings....
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 26, 2009, 05:56:14 PM
Quote from: jesushandsarekindhands on September 26, 2009, 05:47:39 PM
Whitewings you said
and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
What does it mean after this passage where it says that the smoke over their tomernt rises for ever and ever and there is no rest day or night who worships the beast and his image? In my NIV bible it sounds like eternal torment again, can you shed light on this?
I would say get a proper translated Bible :laughing7:
(CLV) And the fumes of their torment are ascending for the eons of the eons. And they are having no rest day and night, those worshiping the wild beast and its image, and if anyone is getting the emblem of its name.
(EngSinaiticus) and the smoke of their torment ascends from age to age; and they who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name, have no rest day or night.
(Darby) And the smoke of their torment goes up to ages of ages, and they have no respite day and night who do homage to the beast and to its image, and if any one receive the mark of its name.
(Diaglott-NT) And smoke of the torment of them for ages of ages rises up; and not they have rest day and night those worshipping the wild-beast and the image of him, and if any one receives the mark of the name of him.
(GDBY_NT) And the smoke of their torment, ascends up into ages of ages: and they have no rest day and night, who worship the beast and his image, and if any one receives the mark of his name.
(Rotherham) And, the smoke of their torment, unto ages of ages, ascendeth; And they have no rest day or night, who do homage unto the beast and his image, or if anyone receiveth the mark of his name.
(RNT) And the smoke of their torture will ascend for ages of ages and they will have no rest day or night — those who worship the Beast and his image, and any one who receives the mark of his name."
(WNT) And the smoke of their torment goes up until the Ages of the Ages; and the worshipers of the Wild Beast and his statue have no rest day or night, nor has any one who receives the mark of his name.
(YLT) and the smoke of their torment doth go up to ages of ages; and they have no rest day and night, who are bowing before the beast and his image, also if any doth receive the mark of his name.
Lol! ...Youll kick me...but what is or how long is an age of age? or eon of eons? I just dont get it...sometimes it means forever???
Ive just found this online and read it but.....its still not sinking in lol!
The Eons of the Bible
With Concordance
THE TEACHING OF THE SCRIPTURES about the eons provides answers to frustrating questions concerning the meaning of human existence. God's purpose in creating man, and God's purpose of the eons are inseparably related. Many are unfamiliar with this important subject because the facts have been concealed by incorrect and misleading translations of the Bible from the original languages into English.
The eons are the longest periods of time referred to in the Scriptures. Time-wise they are of indefinite duration, but event-wise they are distinctly marked off by great cataclysms which affect the whole earth.
FACTS REVEALED CONCERNING THE EONS
THE EONS HAVE A BEGINNING
Literal Translation King James
Heb.1:2 God made the eons God made the worlds
1Cor.2:7 before the eons before the world
2 Tim.1:9 before times eonian before the world began
THE EONS END, INDIVIDUALLY AND COLLECTIVELY
Heb.9:26 the end of the eons the end of the world
1Cor.10:11 the end of the eons the ends of the world
Matt.24:3 the end of the eon the end of the world
HOW MANY EONS ARE THERE?
Col.1:26 hid from the eons Past hid from ages
Luke 20:34 this eon Present this world
Eph.2:7 eons to come Future ages to come
A minimum of five eons indicated
THE PURPOSE OF THE EONS
Eph.3:8-11
Eph.1:9-11; Phil.2:9-11
Col.1:15-21 purpose of the eons eternal purpose
The words "eon" and "eonian" occur 199 times in the New Testament. They are translated as follows in the King James Version:
aion or eon
aionios or eonian
Ages 2 Never 7 Everlasting 25
Course 1 Evermore 4 Eternal 42
World 40 Eternal 2 World 3
Ever 72 Ever 1
The fact that the same word translated "for ever"; "ever-lasting," and "eternal" is also translated "world" is a shocking surprise to many believers. Had God meant "world" in these places He would have used the Greek word "kosmos" which means world. In the best literal translations the words "aion" and "aionios" are consistently rendered "age" and "age-abiding" or transliterated "eon" and "eonian." See Rotherham's Emphasized Version; Young's Literal Translation; or The Concordant Literal New Testament.
God made the eons (Heb.1:2) and fitted them out (Heb.11:3) for the accomplishing of His purpose (Eph.3:8-11; 1:9-11). During the eonian times, sin, suffering and death enter God's creation, serve their purpose and are abolished by Jesus Christ (1Tim.4:9-11; Col.1:20; 1Cor.15:22-28; Rom.5:18,19; Phil. 2:9-11; John 12:32,33; 1John 3:8).
The existence of God is not confined to the eons. He made the eons; therefore, He existed before they began. At the conclusion of the eons Jesus Christ will do away with sin (Heb.9:26) and will abolish death (1 Cor.15:22-26). All will then be subjected to God and God will be All in all (1 Cor.15:27,28). Therefore, God continues to exist after the eons have ended. The statement "from everlasting to everlasting thou art God" (Psa.90:2) is literally "from age to age thou art God." This does not limit God's existence to the eons any more than the statement, "I am the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob" (Ex.3:6), excludes Him from being the God of others also. The same is true of the reference to Him as "the eonian God" (Rom.16:25,26).
During the present wicked eon (Gal.1:4), Sin reigns, Satan who is said to be "the god of this eon" (2 Cor.4:4) blinds and deceives mankind, and death swallows up the race (1 Cor.15:22). But notwithstanding, God is over all and is in supreme control. He is the eonian God. In due time He will deliver the entire creation and bring good out of all the suffering mankind is called upon to endure (Rom.8;18-23).
Neither is it true that if the eons end, the life of believers in Christ must end. Believers do receive eonian life. But if this is all that God promised, there would be no assurance of life beyond the eons. However, at the end of the eons God abolishes death from His universe (1 Cor.15:26). This is accomplished by imparting the resurrection life of Christ to all who have not previously received it. Eonian life assures one of life up to that point. Beyond that, death is impossible. Furthermore, believers are made immortal when the Lord returns (1 Cor.15:50-57). When one has been made immortal, death is impossible.
In the Greek Scriptures endlessness is never expressed in terms of eons or of that which is eonian. The Scriptures never speak of "the endless eons of eternity." Endlessness is expressed by the use of negatives: "not," "no not," "un," "less." For example: "Of His kingdom there shall be no end" ouk estai telos (Luke 1:33); "endless life" akatalutou (Heb.7:16); "endless genealogies" aperantois (1 Tim.1:4); "nevermore" ou me eti (Rev.18:21-23).
COMPLETE CONCORDANCE
The Noun "Aion" and its Adjective "Aionios"
Translated, Eon and Eonian
EON IN THE SINGULAR
1. The present eon – Gal.1:4; 1Tim.6:17: 2Tim.4:10; Titus 2:12 (world)
2. This eon – Matt.12:32; 13:22; Mk.4:19; Lu.16:8; 20:34; Rom.12:2; 1 Cor.1:20; 2:6, 6, 8; 3:18; 2 Cor.4:4; Eph.1:21; 6:12 (world)
3. The eon of this world – Eph.2:2 (course of this world).
4. From the eon – Matt.21:19; Mk.11:14; Lu.1:55; Jn.6:51,58; 8:35; 12:34; 14:16; 2 Cor.9:9; Hb.5:6; 6:20; 7:17, 21; 1 Pet.1:23,25; 2 Pet.2:17; 1 Jn.2:17; 2 Jn.2; Jude 13 (forever); Heb.7:24 (ever); 7:28 (for evermore); 1 Cor.8:13 (while the world standeth).
5. Not for the eon – Mk.3:29; Jn.4:14; 8:51, 52; 10:28; 11:26; 13:8 (never).
6. Before all the eon – Jude 25a (K.J. omits) R.V. "before all time."
7. From the eon – Lk.1:70; Acts 3:21 (since the world began); Acts 15;18 (from the beginning for the world; Out of the eon – Jn.9:32 (since the world began).
8. The conclusion of the eon – Matt.13:39,40,49; 24:3; 28:20 (the end of the world).
9. The coming eon – Mk.10:30; Lk.18:30; Heb.6:5 (world); that eon Lk.20:35 (that world).
10. For the day of the eon – 2Pet.3:18 (for ever). Compare Deut.32:7; Mic.5:2; 7:14; Mal.3:4.
EON IN THE PLURAL
1. God made the eons – Heb.1:2; equipped the eons – Heb.11:3 (worlds).
2. Purpose of the eons – Eph.3:11; King of the eons – 1 Tim.1:17 (eternal).
3. Before the eons – 1 Cor.2:7 (before the world); From the eons – Eph.3:9 (from the beginning of the world); Col.1:26 (from ages).
4. For the eons – Matt.6;13; Lk.1:33; Rom.1:25; 9:5; 11:36; 16:27; Heb.13:8 (for ever); 2Cor.11:32 (for evermore); for all the eons – Jude 25 (ever). "All" omitted in some MSS.
5. The on-coming eons – Eph.2:7 (ages to come).
6. Conclusion of the eons – Heb.9:26 (end of the world). R.V. "end of the ages."
7. Ends of the eons – 1 Cor.10:11 (ends of the world). R.V. "ends of the ages."
EON TWICE IN THE SAME PHRASE
1. The eons of the eons – Gal.1:5; Phil.4:20; 1 Tim.1:17; 2Tim.4:18; Heb.13:21; 1 Pet.4:11; 5:11; Rev.1:6; 4:9,10; 5:13,14; 7:12; 10:6; 11:15; 14:11; 15:7; 19:3; 20:10; 22:5 (for ever and ever); Rev.1:18 (for evermore). A comparison of Rev.11:14,15 with 1 Cor.15:27,28 makes it clear that the expression "the eons of the eons" does not mean an endless succession of eons. Christ reigns for "the eons of the eons" after which He delivers up the Kingdom to the Father and Himself becomes subject that God may be all in all.
2. The eon of the eons – for all the generations of, Eph.3:21 (throughout all ages, world without end). In the K.J. version the Greek word for "generations" is wrongly translated "ages" in this passage. The eon of the eons is the last and greatest eon of them all. In it God's saving purpose is brought to its climax and consummation in the Salvation of all.
3. The eon of the eon – Heb.1:8 (for ever and ever). This is a reference to the last eon which issues out of the one which preceeds it.
THE ADJECTIVE EONIAN
words in parenthesis ( ) below = K.J.V.
1. Before eonian times – 2 Tim.1:9; Titus 1:2 (before the world began).
2. In eonian times – Rom.16:25 (since the world began).
3. Eonian life – Matt.19:29; Lk.18:30; Jn.3:15,16,36; 4:14; 5:24; 6:27,40,47; 12:50; Acts 13:46; Rom.6:22; Gal.6:8; 1 Tim.1:16 (everlasting); Matt.19:16; 25:46; Mk.10:17, 30; Lk.10:25; 18:18; Jn.4:36; 5:39; 6:54,68; 10:28; 12:25; 17:2,3; Acts 13:48; Rom.2:7; 5:21; 6:23; 1 Tim.6:12; Titus 1:2; 3:7; 1 Jn.1:2; 2:25; 3:15; 5:11,13,20; Jude 21 (eternal).
4. Eonian redemption – Hebrews 9:12 (eternal).
5. Eonian salvation – Hebrews 5:9 (eternal).
6. Eonian glory – 2 Cor.4:17; 2 Tim.2:10; 1 Pet.5:10 (eternal).
7. Eonian kingdom – 2 Peter 1:11 (everlasting).
8. Eonian inheritance – Hebrews 9:15 (eternal).
9. Eonian "things not seen" – 2 Corinthians 4:18 (eternal).
10. Eonian house – 2 Corinthians 5:1 (eternal).
11. Eonian habitations – Luke 16:9 (everlasting).
12. Eonian consolation – 2 Thessalonians 2:16 (everlasting).
13. Eonian covenant – Hebrews 13:20 (everlasting).
14. Eonain gospel – Revelation 14:6 (everlasting).
15. Eonian God – Romans 16:26 (everlasting).
16. Eonian Spirit – Hebrews 9:14 (eternal).
17. Eonian power – 1 Timothy 6:16 (everlasting).
18. Eonian judgment – Hebrews 6:2 (eternal)
19. Eonian condemnation – Mark 3:29 (eternal damnation).
20. Eonian fire – Matthew 18:8; 25:41 (everlasting); Jude 7 (eternal fire).
21. Eonian chastening – Matthew 25:46 (everlasting).
22. Eonian extermination – 2 Thessalonians 1:9 (everlasting).
23. Eonian – Philemon 1:15 (for ever).
This outline was adapted from one prepared by the late scholar, Alexander Thompson of Edinburgh, Scotland.
Quote from: Cardinal on September 26, 2009, 05:58:36 PM
:cloud9: Not trying to butt in, but Willie got a recent revelation on that which he shared under the, "2Thessonians 2:10-12; will these people be saved?" thread on that, which was so good and so obvious, (except for the fact we're having to unlearn some of the things of Babylon to keep from seeing things the same way, so couldn't see it)......
"and THE smoke OF the TORMENTS rise up forever... It is the TORMENTS which are burning up in THIS LIFE, never to be suffered again EVER! ...and that TIME is the FIRE in which we (in our varying torments) BURN..."
Blessings......
Thanks Card, i long for the day this all makes sense to me, i really must get a properly translated bible sometime very soon.
Quote from: jesushandsarekindhands on September 26, 2009, 06:06:33 PM
Lol! ...Youll kick me...but what is or how long is an age of age? or eon of eons?
No one knows. It's the Greek variant of teh Hebrew O(w)lam. An Hebrew scholars define it as a period that only God know the end of. Can mean about anything. There are verses that define the lenght of a mans life as olam.
Or the slave that has a awl pierced what slave forever/owlam/eon
QuoteI just dont get it...sometimes it means forever???
I think the vast majority of verses do not have unending duration.
Possibly even none.
Aion means period
Aion usually is translated as eternal or everlasting but as the examples below shows clearly show that's is wrong. But if translated by for example age it works out fine.
Just a quick copy amd paste from my PIM. Sorry fort the bad layout.
In the examples below it's a limited act with everlasting effect.
Jude 1:6 .... he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. => everlasting ends at the great day
Jude 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha .... suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.=> the cities stopped burning long ago.
Isaiah 34:9-10 .... shall become burning pitch. It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up for ever => Edom doesn't burn anymore
Hebrews 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; => became is a one time act.
Hebrews 9:12 .... but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us. => The 'entering' ended but the salvation lasts.
Hebrews 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
Now, as an example, lets translated aionis to eternity in every verse and see if it makes sense
2 Timothy 1:9 ... which was given us in Christ Jesus before the eternity began => there can be nothing before eternity.
Romans 16:25 .... which was kept secret since the eternity began, => there can be nothing before eternity.
Matthew 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of eternity => eternity has no end
Hebrews 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of eternity to come, => eternity can't come because it is without beginning.
Romans 16:26 .... according to the commandment of the everlasting God => God of this time. Meaning God who created time.
There is "the coming eon" (Matt.10:30, Luke 18:30
There is "the present wicked eon" (Gal.1:4)
There is "the oncoming eons (future)(Eph.2:7)
There is "the conclusion of the eon (present) (Mt.13:39,40)
There is "the secret concealed from the eons (past) (Eph.3:9)
Revelation 20:10 ... and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. (aion and aion)
Why stating this when 'aion' is supposed to mean eternity?
If the noun 'aion' means eternity why is there a plural 'aionios' form? There can't be multiple eternities.
=> for the meaning of torment see the "Judgment=Grace" chapter
Verses showing aion with a limited duration
1) BEFORE THE AGES (or AGE) - 1Cor.2:7; 2Tim.1:9; Titus 1:2; Rom.16:25.
2) PRESENT AGE (singular) - Gal.1:4; I Tim. 6:17; 2Tim.4:10; Titus 2:12.
3) THIS AGE (singular) - Luke 16:8; 1Cor.1:20; 2:6-8; Rom.12:2; Eph.2:2.
4) END OF AGE (singular) - Matt.13:39,40; 24:3 [The end of an age is clearly shown in these verses.]
5) END OF THE AGES (i.e. relative to the existence of SIN) - Heb.9:26 [Ages, in the plural come to an end.]
6) THE COMING AGE (singular) - Matt.12:32: Mark 10:30; Luke 18:30; Eph.1:21; Heb.6:5 [The coming age will begin at the Second Coming of Christ.]
7) AGES (plural) TO COME - Eph.2:7 [More ages are to begin in the future.]
8) FUTURE AGES (plural) - Luke 1:33; Heb.13:8.
9) PLAN OF THE AGES (plural) - Eph.3:11; Heb.1:2; 11:3.
10) AGE OF THE AGE - Heb.1:8 (Also the rendering of the LXX) [Note that both words are in the singular here.]
11) AGE OF THE AGES - Eph.3:21 (Note that the first word is singular followed by a plural.)
12) AGES OF THE AGES (not eternal when all Bible contexts compared) - Rev.14:11; 19:3 [Note the plural of both words.]
13) THERE WILL BE FUTURE AGES - Jude25.
14) THE DISPENSATION OF THE FULLNESS OF TIMES - Eph.1:10 [This describes the final period for salvation
Strong
165 aivw,n aion {ahee-ohn'}
Meaning:
for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity
the worlds, universe
period of time, age
Bit off-topic but you might like the book of David and Zoë Sulem.
Just $3 shipping costs. Don't forget to ask them when then post on this forum again....
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Quote from: WhiteWings on September 26, 2009, 06:24:33 PM
Quote from: jesushandsarekindhands on September 26, 2009, 06:06:33 PM
Lol! ...Youll kick me...but what is or how long is an age of age? or eon of eons?
No one knows. It's the Greek variant of teh Hebrew O(w)lam. An Hebrew scholars define it as a period that only God know the end of. Can mean about anything. There are verses that define the lenght of a mans life as olam.
Or the slave that has a awl pierced what slave forever/owlam/eon
QuoteI just dont get it...sometimes it means forever???
I think the vast majority of verses do not have unending duration.
Possibly even none.
Aion means period
Aion usually is translated as eternal or everlasting but as the examples below shows clearly show that's is wrong. But if translated by for example age it works out fine.
Just a quick copy amd paste from my PIM. Sorry fort the bad layout.
In the examples below it's a limited act with everlasting effect.
Jude 1:6 .... he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. => everlasting ends at the great day
Jude 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha .... suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.=> the cities stopped burning long ago.
Isaiah 34:9-10 .... shall become burning pitch. It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up for ever => Edom doesn't burn anymore
Hebrews 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; => became is a one time act.
Hebrews 9:12 .... but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us. => The 'entering' ended but the salvation lasts.
Hebrews 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
Now, as an example, lets translated aionis to eternity in every verse and see if it makes sense
2 Timothy 1:9 ... which was given us in Christ Jesus before the eternity began => there can be nothing before eternity.
Romans 16:25 .... which was kept secret since the eternity began, => there can be nothing before eternity.
Matthew 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of eternity => eternity has no end
Hebrews 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of eternity to come, => eternity can't come because it is without beginning.
Romans 16:26 .... according to the commandment of the everlasting God => God of this time. Meaning God who created time.
There is "the coming eon" (Matt.10:30, Luke 18:30
There is "the present wicked eon" (Gal.1:4)
There is "the oncoming eons (future)(Eph.2:7)
There is "the conclusion of the eon (present) (Mt.13:39,40)
There is "the secret concealed from the eons (past) (Eph.3:9)
Revelation 20:10 ... and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. (aion and aion)
Why stating this when 'aion' is supposed to mean eternity?
If the noun 'aion' means eternity why is there a plural 'aionios' form? There can't be multiple eternities.
=> for the meaning of torment see the "Judgment=Grace" chapter
Verses showing aion with a limited duration
1) BEFORE THE AGES (or AGE) - 1Cor.2:7; 2Tim.1:9; Titus 1:2; Rom.16:25.
2) PRESENT AGE (singular) - Gal.1:4; I Tim. 6:17; 2Tim.4:10; Titus 2:12.
3) THIS AGE (singular) - Luke 16:8; 1Cor.1:20; 2:6-8; Rom.12:2; Eph.2:2.
4) END OF AGE (singular) - Matt.13:39,40; 24:3 [The end of an age is clearly shown in these verses.]
5) END OF THE AGES (i.e. relative to the existence of SIN) - Heb.9:26 [Ages, in the plural come to an end.]
6) THE COMING AGE (singular) - Matt.12:32: Mark 10:30; Luke 18:30; Eph.1:21; Heb.6:5 [The coming age will begin at the Second Coming of Christ.]
7) AGES (plural) TO COME - Eph.2:7 [More ages are to begin in the future.]
8) FUTURE AGES (plural) - Luke 1:33; Heb.13:8.
9) PLAN OF THE AGES (plural) - Eph.3:11; Heb.1:2; 11:3.
10) AGE OF THE AGE - Heb.1:8 (Also the rendering of the LXX) [Note that both words are in the singular here.]
11) AGE OF THE AGES - Eph.3:21 (Note that the first word is singular followed by a plural.)
12) AGES OF THE AGES (not eternal when all Bible contexts compared) - Rev.14:11; 19:3 [Note the plural of both words.]
13) THERE WILL BE FUTURE AGES - Jude25.
14) THE DISPENSATION OF THE FULLNESS OF TIMES - Eph.1:10 [This describes the final period for salvation
Strong
165 aivw,n aion {ahee-ohn'}
Meaning:
for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity
the worlds, universe
period of time, age
Bit off-topic but you might like the book of David and Zoë Sulem.
Just $3 shipping costs. Don't forget to ask them when then post on this forum again....
http://www.godsplanforall.com/site/1351515/product/1
Thanks a lot.
Ill leave the book just now, seriously i have folder of printouts from this website and others to go through just now.