Rev 2:11 - Everyone dies a 2nd death (?)

[WhiteWings]

(CLV)  "'"Who has an ear, let him hear what the spirit is saying to the ecclesias. "'"The one who is conquering may under no circumstances be injured by the second death."

(EngSinaiticus)  He that has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches: He that overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death.

(Mace)  he that hath an ear, let him hear what the spirit saith to the churches, he that overcometh, shall not be hurt by the second death."

(Darby)  He that has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the assemblies. He that overcomes shall in no wise be injured of the second death.

(AUV-NT)  "The person who has an ear should listen to what the Holy Spirit is saying to the churches.  The person who has victory  [in the Christian life]  will not be harmed at all by the second death  [i.e.,  the lake of fire.  See 21:8].


Am I correct when reading the above Rev 2:11 as: Everyone will die a 2nd death but for the believer it won't be painful.

[rosered]

 

  Hi WW , That is a good question !
  being hurt by the second death 
  Does this mean they go though  the fire  like those  hebrew 3 that did not get hurt  either ?Dan 3:25 He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God. 


we know that they went on to die a physical death   because they are only here now by the Word of God .

   these are for examples  to me bro .[in Adam/flesh and blood ]All  die AND IN Christ all shall be made alive .

   I looked at the above verse in Rev 2 ;11  and  rev 2 10   says,

  Rev 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast [some] of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.  He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

the second death  may be the soul possibly ? because the soul is mentioned a many of times about life and death issues

   :HeartThrob:   :icon_flower:
  I am never 100 % sure  :mblush:

[WhiteWings]

Dan 3:25 He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God. 

I think that was a literal fire. And LoF is a spiritual fire (IMO)

these are for examples  to me bro .[in Adam/flesh and blood ]All  die

Isn't that the 1st death? You just die of old age, accident, illness etc. A natural death
For me the 2nd death is a 'judgemental death' by lack of better words.


   I looked at the above verse in Rev 2 ;11  and  rev 2 10   says,

Rev 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast [some] of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.  He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

[some] was not it the original words so is just an opion for translators. I started this thread to find out that opinion is correct.
The way I read the verses 2:10-11 without further context I would say some is not correct.
Especially (nice word....) because everyone is salted with fire. Salt is good.
That said I'm just waiting until someone writes "believers are salted right now in this life"

the second death  may be the soul possibly ? because the soul is mentioned a many of times about life and death issues

Like being split up? One part in LoF and the other talking a walk in Paradise?

:HeartThrob:   :icon_flower:
  I am never 100 % sure  :mblush:

Are you sure about that?  :laughing7:

[rosered]

Dan 3:25 He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God. 

I think that was a literal fire. And LoF is a spiritual fire (IMO)

these are for examples  to me bro .[in Adam/flesh and blood ]All  die

Isn't that the 1st death? You just die of old age, accident, illness etc. A natural death
For me the 2nd death is a 'judgemental death' by lack of better words.


   I looked at the above verse in Rev 2 ;11  and  rev 2 10   says,

Rev 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast [some] of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.  He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

[some] was not it the original words so is just an opion for translators. I started this thread to find out that opinion is correct.
The way I read the verses 2:10-11 without further context I would say some is not correct.
Especially (nice word....) because everyone is salted with fire. Salt is good.
That said I'm just waiting until someone writes "believers are salted right now in this life"

the second death  may be the soul possibly ? because the soul is mentioned a many of times about life and death issues

Like being split up? One part in LoF and the other talking a walk in Paradise?

:HeartThrob:   :icon_flower:
  I am never 100 % sure  :mblush:

Are you sure about that?  :laughing7:

  Yes I am sure LOL...      :dontknow: :laughing7:  A literal fire in a spiritual BOOK ?   hee hee ooooohhh K  !

  :cloud9:  THE SOUL that  " has rest  " verses the soul that  has torment division    in the soul and spirit ?

this may be the key to the verse in  Rev 2 11 ?

But , as far as translations go , I am not  to swayed by any of them , they basically say  the same things  with some  or little difference to me , I have several different   ones/translations and do compare them   from time to time ...... :grin:  no biggy , KJV  at first made me confused with the thee thou  and such  , but  I  started looking for the  greek and hebrew  meanings that helped alot , ALOT !!  :grin:

Hbr 4:12 For the word of God [is] quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and [is] a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. 

[WhiteWings]

THE SOUL that  " has rest  " verses the soul that  has torment division  in the soul and spirit ?

The way I see/understand it soul and spirit are aways (close) together. The spirit is the uplink to God.
Between the soul and spirit there is a wall/veil/divide (of sin?) Once that wall is down we can 'talk' with God?
Perhaps Lazarus and Rich man is also about that?
Lazarus is the spirit (=the religious/godly part) Rich man is the soul (=worldly part)
They are seperated by a gulf/divide.
Just a bit of brainstorming. Especially that Lazarus part is (pure) speculation.

[rosered]

THE SOUL that  " has rest  " verses the soul that  has torment division  in the soul and spirit ?

The way I see/understand it soul and spirit are aways (close) together. The spirit is the uplink to God.
Between the soul and spirit there is a wall/veil/divide (of sin?) Once that wall is down we can 'talk' with God?
Perhaps Lazarus and Rich man is also about that?
Lazarus is the spirit (=the religious/godly part) Rich man is the soul (=worldly part)
They are seperated by a gulf/divide.
Just a bit of brainstorming. Especially that Lazarus part is (pure) speculation.

That really good Bro!
  lazraus   mens ''whom God helps ''!!  if God did not help us we would all be in a bad way   ,  we are a type of Lazarus  dont you think ? 
rasied up from the dead  because Christ calls us from the tomb/  grave + death  :HeartThrob:
  :icon_flower:

[Doc]

This is confusing to me too. It would seem that only certain ones go into a second death, and from what I can see, it appears to be a literal death. This would of course, only be until the consummation. I still have yet to resolve this for myself, however.

[WhiteWings]

All sinners go into LoF/2nd death.

Some say that if you convert in this life you already had your 2nd death.
=> If you are born twice you die once.

I have 2 problems with that:
a] Then the 2nd death (sinful nature) comes before the 1st death. (Literal death)
b] When you ask a converted Christian (who had the 2nd death) are you completely free of sins? The answer is (almost) always no.
Must someone be totally pure to enter Heaven/New Jerusalem or will "s/he is quite clean" do too?

So perhaps all enter LoF but for some it just feels like  a hot summer day and for others it feels like a blast furnace.

[Doc]

Well, I know the LOF is not referred to as the second death until death and hades are thrown in. When satan is tossed in, the beast and false prophet are already there. Satan, the beast and false prophet are the only things "tormented" in the LOF. It isn't said what happens to the others thrown in, although presumably, because it's just been called the second death, those who are thrown in die. That is not to say however, that those who die the second death stay dead, because all will be made alive in Christ and God will be all in all once all death is abolished. So we know that all death, including the second death will be abolished.

[WhiteWings]

I think the others are also tormented.
But I have to add I use the 'teaching/testing' as the defenition of torment.

God is a refiners fire.
A goal of a refiner is to remove dirt from the gold/silver. Not to vaporize the gold/silver.
So I think the impurities die. (the sin part)

[Doc]

I think the others are also tormented.
But I have to add I use the 'teaching/testing' as the defenition of torment.

God is a refiners fire.
A goal of a refiner is to remove dirt from the gold/silver. Not to vaporize the gold/silver.
So I think the impurities die. (the sin part)

I think we can only make the case that the others are 'tormented' in the LOF if we use a figurative interpretation of the LOF as the second death. If it's a literal second death, then they just die. I think it's clear from the language in that passage though, that only the beast, satan, and the false prophet are spoken of as being tormented there. Everyone else appears to receive their 'testing' at the GWT judgment. And if you look carefully at the text, it doesn't specifically say what happens to other beings or entities thrown in.
We can infer that they are tormented there from the statement about the other three thrown in, but the text doesn't specifically state that. I'm inclined to go with the interpretation that since it's just been referred to as the second death (once death and hades are thrown in) that now that's what happens to anyone else thrown in. That at least seems more obvious to me than the other interpretation. I could be wrong.

Here is the text:

Rev 20:10 And the Adversary who is deceiving them was cast into the lake of fire and sulphur, where the wild beast and where the false prophet are also. And they shall be tormented day and night for the eons of the eons."
Rev 20:11 And I perceived a great white throne, and Him Who is sitting upon it, from Whose face earth and heaven fled, and no place was found for them."
Rev 20:12 And I perceived the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne. And the scrolls were opened. And another scroll was opened which is the scroll of life. And the dead were judged by that which is written in the scrolls in accord with their acts."
Rev 20:13 And the sea gives up the dead in it, and death and the unseen give up the dead in them. And they were condemned, each in accord with their acts."
Rev 20:14 And death and the unseen were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death-the lake of fire.
Rev 20:15 And if anyone was not found written in the scroll of life, he was cast into the lake of fire."

[WhiteWings]

You are right claiming that it isn't said the people cast into the lake are tormented.
But they are not in the book of life.
=> Not life/alive = death

Not being in the book of life is a bad thing.
So I don't think being cast in LoF is  a pleasant reward.
What exactly happens in LoF.... I'm just speculating to learn and to get feedback.


Time for me to leave this world and enter the dream world. :lazy:

[Doc]

You are right claiming that it isn't said the people cast into the lake are tormented.
But they are not in the book of life.
=> Not life/alive = death

Not being in the book of life is a bad thing.
So I don't think being cast in LoF is  a pleasant reward.
What exactly happens in LoF.... I'm just speculating to learn and to get feedback.


Time for me to leave this world and enter the dream world. :lazy:

Exactly. That's what bugs me, it doesn't specifically state there what happens to those thrown in, we are left to guess a bit.

Sleep well.

[marie glen]

I didn't know if it's best to start a new thread or respond to an older one...?

I was thinking of this - and maybe it's been discussed before :dontknow: but, what if the 1st death for Christians is death to self, aka, to be reckoned our old nature "crucified with Christ" and then the 2nd death would be our actual physical death (not that I believe we pass from life to heaven at death, which just seems untidy to me, but I will look again at the interlinear of 1 Thess , and 1 cor 15 says we "put on immortality" at His return) but that aside...

If that were the case then might it be reversed for those (not yet saved/believing/written in the book) in that their actual physical death is the first, and dying to self would be their second...?

Tho I still believe most (if not all) by end of judgment 'day' will believe/be in the book.. But this would be a different slant than commonly believed by so many - although many believe death is but another type of life/living... But also implied, once the old nature is dead, it's really and truly dead/expired/exterminated (at His return). Something to truly of course celebrate. :banana: :cloud9:
...God bless..

[Lazarus Short]

Revelation 2:11 - "injured by the second death."  I think Marie is on the right track.  I see the fire, and the men unhurt in it, as a type of the Overcomers in the LoF.  Look at this:  "For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.  Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man's work shall be made manifest:  for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.  I any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.  I any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss:  but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire."  I Corinthians 3:11-15 KJV

The Overcomer will have built on the foundation of Jesus the Christ his gold, silver, and precious stones.  These will survive the fire of the LoF, and so the Overcomer will not suffer loss (be hurt).  Others will suffer loss and be hurt, but they will be saved.  I don't think they will inherit (receive a reward) in the Kingdom either.

[marie glen]

I can see that, and I think it's right. I'm not sure why, but I always find myself thinking about the LOF as a couple of things or more. Like you too have included..

Like a telescoping thing like with prophecy, like repeating patterns. (Maybe that's what Eaglesway/John means by wheels within wheels? :idea2: ?)

...Including "our God is a consuming fire"? And nothing impure can survive His truest essence of being a consuming fire, holy and pure, so pure as to consume away anything and everything not pure.

:Chinscratch: ..you know fire and water don't really go together.. Just a passing thought how the Holy Spirit of God is compared to water.. including baptism.

And what can be carried forward out of this life? Only those things built that have lasting value, like you said, the gold, silver.. like gems. #one being one's relationships and things we learn. (Our #1 relationship being with Him! :banana: )

If there comes to be fierce, perhaps thermonuclear war in the Middle East i could see a literal LOF occurring (because of all the oil?) Also after the thousand years when the adversary is let out of the pit and armies surround the city of God, but fire comes down from heaven consumes them, in my imagination another lake. (This all before the 2nd resurrection. :thumbsup: )

Yet the one after judgment day is equated with a 2nd death..
All very interesting! But one thing we happily know for absolute,

"Remember and return to Jehovah, do all ends of the earth,
and before Thee bow themselves, do all families of the nations."
- Ps 22:27, Young's Literal Translation

..there was another LOF thread recently, wasn't there? :doh:

[CHB]

What if the lake of fire is a symbol of baptism, you know John said, He.. Jesus... would baptize with spirit and fire (Luke 3:16-17). That would also be the second death, old man dying, resurrection to life.

CHB

[micah7:9]

What if the lake of fire is a symbol of baptism, you know John said, He.. Jesus... would baptize with spirit and fire (Luke 3:16-17). That would also be the second death, old man dying, resurrection to life.

CHB

I like that  :dsunny:

[darryl]

'Death', 1st and 2nd..will be abolished according to the Bible.

[eaglesway]

I do not believe anyone who's name is written in the Lamb's book of life will experience the second death, whatever it is really, exactly, is.

"We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love each other. Anyone who does not love remains in death. 1 Jn 3:14

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life." John 5:24

"Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire." Rev 20:15

As Darryl pointed out, all death will eventually be abolished, and God will be all in all. Whatever the lake of fire is, it is(imo) for those who are still hard hearted when they die.

I would feel confident to say all those who have passed from death into life are written in the Lamb's book of life.

[darryl]

I do not believe anyone who's name is written in the Lamb's book of life will experience the second death, whatever it is really, exactly, is.

"We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love each other. Anyone who does not love remains in death. 1 Jn 3:14

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life." John 5:24

"Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire." Rev 20:15

As Darryl pointed out, all death will eventually be abolished, and God will be all in all. Whatever the lake of fire is, it is(imo) for those who are still hard hearted when they die.

I would feel confident to say all those who have passed from death into life are written in the Lamb's book of life.

:iagree: :thumbsup:

[Seth]

I believe anyone that has accepted Christ and recieved newness of life has passed out of death (as represented by the Lake of Fire in Revelation) and will welcome everyone else out of death, and into the life they found. That is why I do not believe the second death is for the overcomer. They already overcame death.

[Seth]

I do not believe anyone who's name is written in the Lamb's book of life will experience the second death, whatever it is really, exactly, is.

"We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love each other. Anyone who does not love remains in death. 1 Jn 3:14

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life." John 5:24

"Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire." Rev 20:15

As Darryl pointed out, all death will eventually be abolished, and God will be all in all. Whatever the lake of fire is, it is(imo) for those who are still hard hearted when they die.

I would feel confident to say all those who have passed from death into life are written in the Lamb's book of life.

:thumbsup:

[Dandelion]

I do not believe anyone who's name is written in the Lamb's book of life will experience the second death, whatever it is really, exactly, is.

"We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love each other. Anyone who does not love remains in death. 1 Jn 3:14

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life." John 5:24

"Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire." Rev 20:15

As Darryl pointed out, all death will eventually be abolished, and God will be all in all. Whatever the lake of fire is, it is(imo) for those who are still hard hearted when they die.

I would feel confident to say all those who have passed from death into life are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Hurray! 

D.

[rosered]

I have all but give up  ,  speaking about the beautiful things of God in detail , hoping to hear ,  so sorry been tired ,   but there is always the hope of a seed planted /Word of God in our heart   when prepared by God for it to take root and grow in truth and grace ,, It has always been God our Heavenly Father that gives the increase of Spiritual growth
and not of ourselves ,  ourselves actually  get in the way and stunt    the growth in ourselves and others ...
Jesus explains this well in the 4 gospels   of  those whom will not enter  themselves but stand in the door way not letting others enter as well .   You have to go though the DOOR  first before you can receive  and JESUS CHRIST IS THAT DOOR ..
I am the door of the sheepfold John 10;7  , the door  , not a door or any door  /gate  it is the ONLY  way in, and  is though Him only  being our ALL .

He stands at the door and knocks .....  Only he knocks  , the thief and robber  never knocks  , but enters some other way and is the same as a thief and robber ...
  but than we have that scripture that says THE DAY OF THE LORD  comes as a thief in the NIGHT   1 THESS 5 The Day of the Lord
1Now about the times and seasons, brothers, we do not need to write to you. 2For you are fully aware that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night.3While people are saying, "Peace and security," destruction will come upon them suddenly, like labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.

when you  consider these are two entirely different   meanings  and not to be confused with each other  as some do   and have

  The whole book of Revelation is the DAY OF THE LORD in great detail   and it  IS the 1000   year reign  and describes exactly how it is done   in full detail .

Jesus went to the cross  to undo what Adam did   and  Adam lived 930 years just shy of the   THE  DAY  he ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil   and   was dead , in the DAY /1000 years   you die and are dead and the dead in Adam know nothing  , When Jesus said it is finished , it was the finished work of taking the keys of    hell and death  back and away  from the ''works of the devil ''   and what Adam had done in the garden of LIFE .BY THE WORD  made flesh   [This leaves   70 years  of Babylon  of captivity    and fear of death   , this is the   shortened  days of our flesh , lest none/flesh  would be saved , by the grace of God    ....    When you read  all  of  Revelation     you can see the destruction of Babylon by God  undoing  all  Her damage ,     those  DAY OF  THE LORD  being  fully described in Revelation in bowles poured out and seals opened  and trumpets blowing  and churches being under the 7 eyes of the all seeing Spirits of God  FULLY EXPOSED    being fulfilled and finished by   HIS SPIRIT .

Just putting this is short   explanations , because with all the scriptures it would be a mile long  :eek:

The first death was in Adam that all die and in Christ all shall be made alive      , God promised to pour out His Spirit on ALL  flesh   and  this is exactly what HE DID /DOES .  but now we are seeing the  WORD OF GOD  being  made flesh ..  of his  own body   and flesh of his flesh and bone of his bone etc..    it is sure in the here and now     

  The first death was the  water [ baptism / coming up out of  death, the watery grave  ] the voices and many waters from below , from the dragon flood of lies and  murder  in the heart of the earth  , the earth helped  the ''woman '' by swallowing up this flood of lies  and filth of corruption ,  this is what Adam opened up  sin  for all mankind to experience   and this is what Jesus Christ    completed   in LOVE and forgiveness  for sin  and taking death captive    in HIS OWN BODY ,God made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that in Him we might become the righteousness of God. Being the Lord of the dead and the living ,HIS BODY IS BEING MADE ALIVE THOUGH THE HOLY SPIRIT  OF FIRE OF GODS JEALOUSY   destroying  BABYLON WITH HOLY SPIRIT AND FIRE .[3 days and 3 nights in the heart of the earth  building the TEMPLE OF GOD  ]..   the second appearing  of Christ  would be without sin ,27Just as man is appointed to die once[watery grave ], and after that to face judgment[Holy Spirit and fire] 

2Peter 3 https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2+Peter+3&version=KJVagain the Day of the LORD that comes upon those waiting on   the LORD in the second appearing

Hebrews 9 28so also Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many; and He will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who eagerly await Him.,,  This  second death being the Lake of fire    is the HOLY SPIRIT AND FIRE BAPTISM [   and the  City of ZION Isiah 33https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah+33] and Hebrews 12 https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews+12   shows us the destroyer being destroyed  [satan , the false prophet and the beast  being burned ] after they have  burned her flesh with fire  in Revelation as Babylon is falling  AND  REV   17  - 20 being fulfilled       This all wrapped up in the DAY OF THE LORD /1000 year reign   while being the in the SPIRIT by the WORD  both  ALIVE  and moving within and without .. and overcoming the world as it has been set on fire by the Lord Himself   Jesus   Come this second time to set the world on HOLY SPIRIT FIRE ,  the men whose hearts burned within them when Jesus opened up the scriptures to them Heb 1 The Supremacy of the Son
...6And again, when God brings His firstborn into the world, He says: "Let all God's angels worship Him."7Now about the angels He says: "He makes His angels winds, His servants flames of fire." 8But about the Son He says: "Your throne, O God, will last forever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of Your kingdom....

Its here just for your consideration only , not saying this is the end all  , but only sharing what the Holy Word &  Spirit   has been teaching  me on  a personal level , we are all in the  different places the Lord has given us , and have been so comforted by them     and  was just sharing  hoping the same comfort  would come to others and it has  me ....  GOD BLESS  :HeartThrob: