Question about masturbation

[jesushandsarekindhands]

Firstly moderators, if i have posted this in the wrong place i do apologize wholeheartedly and feel free to either move this post or delete it completely, I don't want to offend anyone.



Recently I was on a 'christian' website (well...if you could call it that, they were pretty bizarre to be honest and threw me out for saying i believed that all men would probably be saved and challenging their belief about an eternal hell where we all get jabbed by demons forever in a big fire).  (That's another story).

Anyway my question is about...

Masturbation. 

Yes I know, strange topic.  But the Christians on this other website believed that God regarded it as a sin.
Now, first up, I don't believe its a sin.  But they were TERRIFIED of doing it, even to the point of creating threads saying things like -

"I havent masturbated in 12 weeks! YIPPEE!!"

The guy even showed a utube video on the forum we were in which was all about how evil a person is for masturbating and when you do it at night, Satan is watching you etc etc, and generally making people feel TERRIBLE for being human...Young people at that. 

I thought it was disgusting the way people can make their kids believe that, and I hate to think of the upbringing some of these kids have had...

I watched the UTUBE video the guy put on the forum site and....it was created by someone who was having a laugh. 
The guy who had made the video wasn't even being serious and wasn't even a Christian, i read his profile and he said he just wanted to challenge peoples stupid beliefs.

So.... The guy (the masturbater for want of a better word lol)...really believed that this video was real and was terrified that Satan would come into his room if he ever touched himself.

Some of the things the moderators on the site were saying was that if people lust while they do it, then its a sin etc. 

I say its perfectly natural and even explained the risks of NOT masturbating (cancer and so on).  (That's another story though so I wont go into all that, but it is a common belief held by many doctors that it isn't good for someone to 'store it up for too long'.

I also believe that it is a way to PREVENT us from lusting or controlling ourselves better around others.
What are your thoughts on this?

[Taffy]

no worries Marc...your just finding your feet, your post has been moved to the members section

[Beloved Servant]

Amen Taffy.
And Marc, there is nothing that you can't talk to your Father about; ask Him to teach you His ways.

Don't worship the creature more than the Creator!

[martincisneros]

Masterbation is one of at least fifteen things, if not a combination of two or more of these factors:

• insecurities that grew out of a lack of a wholesome, righteous father figure that was attentive, counseling, disciplining, nurturing, strength to your upbringing, that helped in the formation of your overall identity, including your sexual identity in how to love the opposite sex;
• having too much time on your hands and the combination of boredom and curiosity that can grow out of that in one's youth;
• being overly preoccupied with self;
• demonic lust, i.e. demonization;
• mental illness (including stress factors that are on overload);
• chemical imbalance -- not just in the sense of mental illness although fine line here if hormones are a bit much as well;
• low self esteem;
• an acting out of having been molested and/or a need for attention;
• trying to meet a need for God with one's sexual fulfillment;
• spending too much time around the wrong company and/or a preoccupation with filth such as pornography and profanity since everything comes out of the mouth that defiles, according to Jesus, but which Proverbs 4 expands on with advising caution regarding what goes into one's eyes, ears, and what comes out of one's mouth, hands, and feet in corresponding words and actions 'cause out of your heart are the issues or forces of life;
• acting on wrong information that it'll satisfy, gratify, relieve the deepest pressures, and/or promote health, virility, sexual stamina, promote intimacy in a relationship, et. al.;
• a lack of revelation from God and reverence regarding that physical body being both the temple of the Holy Spirit and of one's God breathed spouse, whomever they are;
• generational curses that need to be addressed and grown past with the Written Word of God, the Name of Jesus, the Authority of the believer, and His Blood and Holy Spirit -- 'cause absolutely nobody should be under that kind of pressure that's not right in the middle of God dealing with some immediate issue in their lives with regards to a mating season and/or the healing of a marriage and/or identity issues that may be resolved in whole or in part by God's work thru your dreams;
• an outworking of Post Traumatic Stress and/or the power of subliminal suggestion from cultural influences amounting to about the same effect on mind and body, although you'd be hard pressed to find anyone that would diagnose it as that because of a paradigm shift that's needing to occur in the medical and counseling communities that will again recognize it for the abberent behaviour that they originally rightly recognized it as;
• it's deep calling unto deep for the one that you were one with before the foundation of the world.

If you're a man, there's a woman that came into this world that was originally created out of you.  If you're a woman, then you not only came from God, originally, but from the side of a guy that's out there, and for which abortion is a scary thought and you've simply got to trust that as God has preserved your life to the present time that He's preserved their life to the present time, unless there's a supernatural gift of singleness that St. Paul seems to imply belongs to some.  I don't believe this necessitates both people being the exact same age, and there can be many reasons why one might be significantly older and it still be God's betrothed for the individual.

For the man, it's never another man from the standpoint that it's a restoration of what was separated from you at your creation, and for which no one will ever do, satisfy, etc., hence many more guys thinking they're gay than are actually dealing with that issue, and many more women thinking they're lesbians than are actually dealing with that issue -- 'cause in the absence of the right one, absolutely no one else will do, and that can become oppression to your soul that begins to think it either simply doesn't like women or that it likes both men and women equally or by varying degrees. And for the woman, it's never another woman, although 99.999999999999999999999999999999% of men will be the wrong man for her.

I know this creates billions of additional questions about death and remarriage, etc.  But I'm trying to be brief about the masterbation question, and for me, when demons aren't involved, bad information and chemical imbalances and other mental illnesses aren't involved, then it's a yearning for a portion of a completed destiny that involves that significant other.  All of the above issues can be resolved with the Written Word of God and a believer's authority in Christ Jesus over all things and times without going in the direction of self abuse, abuse of God's Holy Temple, and warring against one's very soul with demonic inspirations. 

Masterbation is the really low road and there are Scriptural higher roads for dealing with every issue of one's life with the overwhelming victory of Christ Jesus.  Anything that could possibly be related to causing a temptation to commit this sin is something that's already been anticipated in the Written Word of God and there's multiple promises in the Written Word thru which God has released His ability that can be activated by faith in order to gain a greater victory and a greater satisfaction and contentment from than from doing something that's genuinely unwholesome, in bad taste, lacking in dignity, and detrimental to one's well being, one's soul, and one's wholeness, length of days, long life, and prosperity.

[jabcat]

Very interesting post Martin.  Thanks for addressing it. 

You've brought up things I've never ever thought about before, I'll tell you that much.   :bigGrin:

God's blessing, James.

[jesushandsarekindhands]

Interesting opinions, but, i was looking for some biblical grounds on this one and not human guesses, although all due respect and thank you for taking the time to respond.

[jesushandsarekindhands]

I could of course have responded with 'other' man made beliefs in such.  Like this...and thousands more....

"According to the Alice! Health Promotion Program, masturbation is a healthy way to express and explore your sexuality and release sexual tension. Other health professionals generally agree that private touching is a natural, normal mode of self-exploration and sexual expression".

Well, all i know is ive never known anyone who doesnt.

[Paul Hazelwood]

Masturbation is not wrong any more then sex is wrong in and of itself.  I don't need specific biblical grounds for it any more than I need to find a verse that tells me it is ok to install a Stereo in my truck.

Religious assertions will make it into something it is not and create the scenario for having to feel guilty for doing something enjoyable that causes no harm and in fact is a healthy bodily function under normal circumstances.

Excessive compulsions is another matter,  you can have problems that manifest themselves into compulsicve behavior and religious people really don't like it when you say that this can also manifest into going to church too much as well.

If you are find yourself doing it abnormally, compulsive like in the manner of not being able to wait, doing it at work,  excessive amounts of time per day, then that is not about it being wrong, there is something else that is causing the compulsions.

If you find yourself wanting some enjoyment occasionally in that regaurd, do it.   

The two biblical issues that people use are not adequate, Onan disobeyed God, it was not about what he did specifically.   The lust issue will prevent even married people from being able to engage in sex without sin looming over thier heads, it's just what goes through the mind when it is occuring.

[martincisneros]

If it's not wrong, awkward, weird, et. al., then it'll stand the test of thanking God in the Name of Jesus for the whole duration that you're doing it, without bringing His Presence into it feeling the least bit awkward, convicting, embarrassing, and filling you full of shame. That's my test for absolutely every thing, is to purposefully bring His Presence into it, and if I can't do it in front of His manifested Presence with the worship music going on and my singing in other tongues, then something's evidently very wrong with it.  Screw the creeds, denominations, et. al., when we can simply bring Him to walk right in on what's going on, and if He says or implies by His Presence a "QUIT IT!!" then it should never be engaged in another moment of one's entire life, and one should thank God for not having been allowed to pursue the road to Hell, 'cause although joy comes in the morning, weeping will still endure for the night.

[Paul Hazelwood]

If it's not wrong, awkward, weird, et. al., then it'll stand the test of thanking God in the Name of Jesus for the whole duration that you're doing it, without bringing His Presence into it feeling the least bit awkward, convicting, embarrassing, and filling you full of shame. That's my test for absolutely every thing, is to purposefully bring His Presence into it, and if I can't do it in front of His manifested Presence with the worship music going on and my singing in other tongues, then something's evidently very wrong with it.  Screw the creeds, denominations, et. al., when we can simply bring Him to walk right in on what's going on, and if He says or implies by His Presence a "QUIT IT!!" then it should never be engaged in another moment of one's entire life, and one should thank God for not having been allowed to pursue the road to Hell, 'cause although joy comes in the morning, weeping will still endure for the night.

I thank God for it.   Yes. 

[Paul Hazelwood]

That's my test for absolutely every thing, is to purposefully bring His Presence into it, and if I can't do it in front of His manifested Presence with the worship music going on and my singing in other tongues, then something's evidently very wrong with it. 

Whatever,  I guess this is what you do when having sex with your wife.

[martincisneros]

Precisely -- you should try it in the Presence of God sometime -- it's a hundred thousand times stronger when the working of miracles enters in, as well as other manifestations of the Holy Spirit.  It's amazing when the Song of Solomon anointing walks in and you genuinely have a consciousness that it's your ongoing coronation with the crowns of life and righteousness and all of the rewards of heaven.  With my late wife, the glory of God actually lit up the room and you could see the Ark of the Covenant in the corner on our wedding night, as well as a room filled with angels -- it was amazingly holy and neither one of us could stop praising God and rejoicing during the whole evening.  I wouldn't rob anyone of having that, and would take every opportunity that He affords me of saying that that's available - LITERALLY heaven on earth!!

[jesushandsarekindhands]

Precisely -- you should try it in the Presence of God sometime -- it's a hundred thousand times stronger when the working of miracles enters in, as well as other manifestations of the Holy Spirit.  It's amazing when the Song of Solomon anointing walks in and you genuinely have a consciousness that it's your ongoing coronation with the crowns of life and righteousness and all of the rewards of heaven.  With my late wife, the glory of God actually lit up the room and you could see the Ark of the Covenant in the corner on our wedding night, as well as a room filled with angels -- it was amazingly holy and neither one of us could stop praising God and rejoicing during the whole evening.  I wouldn't rob anyone of having that, and would take every opportunity that He affords me of saying that that's available - LITERALLY heaven on earth!!

Martin, that faith has got to be admired.

But the way I see it is this.

God has seen it all before.  He made penis's and all that, and to me, the body is nothing to be ashamed of, and sometimes, things just happen.  I think if it's done out of purity then it's fine, and I believe it can be done purely as well.

[Paul Hazelwood]

Precisely -- you should try it in the Presence of God sometime -- it's a hundred thousand times stronger when the working of miracles enters in, as well as other manifestations of the Holy Spirit.  It's amazing when the Song of Solomon anointing walks in and you genuinely have a consciousness that it's your ongoing coronation with the crowns of life and righteousness and all of the rewards of heaven.  With my late wife, the glory of God actually lit up the room and you could see the Ark of the Covenant in the corner on our wedding night, as well as a room filled with angels -- it was amazingly holy and neither one of us could stop praising God and rejoicing during the whole evening.  I wouldn't rob anyone of having that, and would take every opportunity that He affords me of saying that that's available - LITERALLY heaven on earth!!

Great then we have agreed that masturbation and having sex with your wife is not wrong. 

[martincisneros]

No, Paul, I was replying to this:

Whatever,  I guess this is what you do when having sex with your wife.

Either it's done in the Presence of God, or even in marriage to a Christian it's unequally yoked if God's not the one you're yoked with for the whole experience. Anyone that doesn't bring the Presence of God into the marriage bed doesn't know what sex is yet.  He said He'd pour out His Spirit upon all flesh and He meant it.  The healing gifts very often will go into manifestation in that way, as well as predictive things about the future or about immediate outpourings of God's blessings in situations that a couple are dealing with.  I'm convinced that the Ark of the Covenant depicts a marriage bed, and that the endless sacrifices in the Old Testament simply typified that their marriage with God had been defiled by Adam, and when He wasn't having to pour more and more blood on it, then the consummation of the remarriage had occured. 

'Cause you've got Jesus stopping at teaching about the Seed 'cause really little kids were present, while you've got Song of Solomon teaching the whole Kingdom from the perspective of the marriage bed with the identical same lessons about the progress of the Written Word thru the preaching of the Gospel being illustrated.  In Song of Solomon, you've got it from the anointing of Jesus' body for burial in chapter 1, verse 12, to the eating of the honey comb after He was raised from the dead in chapter 5, verse 1 -- all of the way thru the Church age coming to a close at the end of the reign of Christ -- all of it in Song of Solomon.  Hence, the marriage bed between a man and a woman is the parable of the Kingdom "ages of ages." 

Therefore, the fullness of the revelation of Jesus Christ and of His Church should be revealed from the marriage bed, and all of the power of the Kingdom should flow from it mightily until the whole earth is filled with His glory.  That being the case, then masterbation is obviously the gluttony and drunkenness at the Lord's table that the New Testament emphatically condemns, forbids, and says will get you judged with the same judgments that the world is judged with.  It's the robbing of father and mother and saying that it is no sin 'cause it's Korban, i.e. the gift (Proverbs 28:24).  It's the attempt at offering an offering without being right with one's spouse, that the Sermon on the Mount condemns and that 1Peter 3 indicates would hinder one's prayers 'cause it's not dwelling with one's spouse with the revelation knowledge of the Lord. 

It's unquestionably the looking upon one's body with lust in one's heart that Jesus forbade/condemned.  It's laying up for yourselves treasures upon earth rather than in the heavenlies since it's rightfully the life of someone else that's being flippantly disguarded.  It's the breaking of the commandments not to steal or to covet, since St. Paul teaches that our bodies belong to the Lord and to the person that God has yoked us with.  It's not the entering by the narrow gate, but by the wide gate that leads to destruction.  It's allowing a bodily member to offend that Jesus says should rather be cut off rather than allowed to.  It's the serving and worship of the creature rather than the Creator that's forbidden by the Scriptures, it's being weary in well doing 'cause it's not being saved to be invested in the relationship that God has for one, it's a lack of self control, a lack of godly dignity, it's side stepping participating in the divine nature, it's side stepping the exceedingly great and precious promises by which we escape the corruption that's in the world thru lust. 

It doesn't allow the incorruption and immortality of the spirit a chance to shine thru and transfigure you into His own perfections, it's the antithesis of waiting upon the Saviour from heaven in Philippians 3:20-21 in the same way that waiting is taught in Psalms and Isaiah in the sense of being a waiter at a restaurant taking His order and receiving His recompense.  It blasphemes the dignity of one's spouse and clothes them in shame, and it covers one's garments with violence, and claiming the need for it is to make one's words stout against the Holy One.  It's incestuous against one's own divinity and sanctity of one's life.  It's offering up strange fire, the sin of Balaam, the sin of the prophets of Baal that Elijah had put to death, it's mental and emotional idolatry, and if I don't shut up, I'm going to wind up throwing every book of the Bible at it somehow, but really, if there's anything that's beneath the royal dignity of everyone at these boards, that's it!!

There's deliverance from it, and if anyone feels the need for it while already married, then seek His face [diligently, Isaiah 58 style] for deliverance, which may include divorce if this can't be healed in that context, and let Him bring the one that one was made with at the very beginning of His purposes.  Better to marry than to burn, but if one is still burning in the context of marriage, then one needs deliverance or didn't marry the right one, but marriage and burning aren't compatible in St. Paul's theology, which is what saying you can be married and masterbating at the same time is all about.  If a need isn't being met, then one isn't married to the one that's God's wisdom for one's life because that anxiety should not be there.  It is a spirit of rape that's trying to force one's sexual will upon the image of another while trying to escape going to jail over it -- yet Jesus said it's already been nailed by the courts of heaven to the back wall of Hell!

[Paul Hazelwood]

Well, the problem is taking something as a religious no no and painting this great over complicated scene of mental illness and demonization among the other non-sense over something that in and of itself is not a problem in the first place.

That is evil and seeks to destroy peoples spirits whether anyone sees it or cares.

The other problem is the emotional and religious assertivness over what people test with.  The logic does not hold up, if it did then it would have been impossible for me to have changed while not holding to the criteria you talk about Martin.   

I was in a church and the religious die hards studied some mega church pastors 10 step program to realizing your dreams.   All of the sudden, there was sadness where non existed before because people realized that they were failing the tests and all kinds of things manifested that did not exist,  crisis was created where non existed.  And I have a son who realized his dream and didn't meet the criteria of these tests as it was taught.

EVIL is what that is.

Religion over complicates everything and is more about self gratification for the person applying their walk onto others.  People make money off of it and they rise up in other people eyes with it, little of it is actually spiritual.

[jesushandsarekindhands]

Well, the problem is taking something as a religious no no and painting this great over complicated scene of mental illness and demonization among the other non-sense over something that in and of itself is not a problem in the first place.

That is evil and seeks to destroy peoples spirits whether anyone sees it or cares.

The other problem is the emotional and religious assertivness over what people test with.  The logic does not hold up, if it did then it would have been impossible for me to have changed while not holding to the criteria you talk about Martin.  

I was in a church and the religious die hards studied some mega church pastors 10 step program to realizing your dreams.   All of the sudden, there was sadness where non existed before because people realized that they were failing the tests and all kinds of things manifested that did not exist,  crisis was created where non existed.  And I have a son who realized his dream and didn't meet the criteria of these tests as it was taught.

EVIL is what that is.

Religion over complicates everything and is more about self gratification for the person applying their walk onto others.  People make money off of it and they rise up in other people eyes with it, little of it is actually spiritual.

Paul I couldnt have put this better myself.  To me, this subject is a load that people just cant carry, that RELIGION has stuck on mens backs.

This to me is just MORE rules and RESTRICTIONS that arent even there to start out with. 

"If the son sets you free you will be free indeed". 
"What?"  I dont feel very free...Cant do this, cant do that, cant even have a **** now.  Great.  Shoot me now.
Well i for one can't stop, i really would have to hack my hands off, and even then id probably beg someone else to do it for me (id have to beg of course).

[jesushandsarekindhands]

I mean, lets say i have an itchy face....do i just suffer and let the itch build?  No, i scratch it.  Lets say i have another itch somewhere else, that wont be satisfied until its scratched.  Do i just leave it?

Really boys will be boys, its a comfort thing, even babies do it, i dont get all this stuff, its harmless, in fact id be worried if i had kids or teens that DIDNT do it and if i was a kid and my parents were telling me "ITS EVIL!!!!!!!" I would pack my bags and go and sleep out on the streets because i knew kids at that time with that kind of upbringing.  Id be much more concerned as to whether they were loving kids, i wouldnt even THINK about what they do in their private time.  Dear o dear.

[Paul Hazelwood]

I mean, lets say i have an itchy face....do i just suffer and let the itch build?  No, i scratch it.  Lets say i have another itch somewhere else, that wont be satisfied until its scratched.  Do i just leave it?

Really boys will be boys, its a comfort thing, even babies do it, i dont get all this stuff, its harmless, in fact id be worried if i had kids or teens that DIDNT do it.

It is all about the nature of the behavior.   I used to smoke,  I know people who smoke less than a pack in a whole week and have smoked that way for years.   I was going upwards of 3 packs a day.   Was smoking the problem?   Well, smoking can obviously cause problems, I seriously challenge anyone to document on any scale that would cause concern over lung cancer or emphysema patients that got there over less than a pack a week.  There are exceptions to everything I suppose, but you'll be hard pressed to find them in this area.

My friend didn't really have a problem, but I could of made it into one, I had a compulsion problem not a problem with smoking cigarettes.  Over time my habit increased to a compulsion that was not enjoyment.  I did not inherantly enjoy smoking that much.

So there is just issues deeper than the surface of what might offend someone or what religion has built a case against.

[jesushandsarekindhands]

This passage springs to my mind sometimes
Ecclesiastes 7:16 >>
   
   Do not be overrighteous, neither be overwise--why destroy yourself?

And im sure God has a great sense of humour since he invented it.  He must get a good cackle at us sometimes.
"Not again lad! Find a wife!"

[sven]

sry for going a bit of topic:

but @ martincisneros

If you're a man, there's a woman that came into this world that was originally created out of you.

do you think every man has such a woman, is it something one might call "soulmate", might you tell me more about that subject? - I think it's very interesting

[Raggedy Anne]

Funny how there are no women weighing in here :laughing7:  Not funny, haha, but typical.

Everything in moderation, I read somewhere. 

Honestly, though, Martin, just because someone would have sex in front of God does not mean it is not a private matter. 
There is no privacy from God - that is a silly notion.  And no, my husband and I do not put on worship music in order to "get in the mood". 
I think it is rather ridiculous to discuss such things, honestly, especially on a web site where there are bound to be all kinds of sexual hang-ups that vary from person to person. 

[Nancy]

hi ya,
great subject.

Well when i masturbate (sorry for giving you too much info, folks!!!) i liken it to having sex with God.  I sort of mediate and think of God. Why should that produce guilt?
it can be spritual i feel.

Godbless
Nancy

[reFORMer]

A passage that possibly does speak of masterbation is 1 Cor 7:36-38, but you have to go to the original Greek. The translators interpret here, adding more or less depending on which Bible version you reference. The easiest way to correct it is understand there is no he/she/it in the pronoun. It always simply means: the SAME, and refers to nearest preceding noun, no varience if that noun is singular or plural, masculine, feminine or neuter, it remains, "the SAME." Everytime in this passage you read, "He," "his," "her," or, "them" it is always conjecture on the part of the translators. (To digress a moment, this is why arguments over translating the Greek pronoun concerning the Holy Spirit with "he," "she" or "it" display ignorance.) Sometimes translators add and bend words like the New King James Version which has in verse 36 added "daughter" and interpreted "take" to "give" saying, "he who is giving his virgin daughter in marriage..."

1 Corinthians 7:36-38...

"Now if any is inferring it to be indecent on the same's virgin, if the same may be beyond the meridan, and thus it ought to occur, what the same will, let the same do; the same is not sinning. Let the same marry.

Yet the same who stands settled in the same's heart, having no necessity, yet has authority concerning the same's will, and has decided this in the same's heart--to be keeping the same's virgin--ideally will be doing;

so that both the same marrying does ideally, and the same not out marrying does better."

Whether my understanding is correct or not, maybe someone with more knowledge of Greek can clarify.

[reFORMer]

I was sitting with my back to the opened window at a friends house.  I saw a wisp of vapor, like a fog tendril come through the screen.  I was in a realm above our ordinary consciousness and I saw the deep grasses and plants surging wave like in the wind, casting off seeds into the humid wind currents.  The trees also were wind tossed and releasing seeds into the wind.  There was a sense of superabundance of seed, of fecund fertility in the scene.  It seemed I detachedly felt and saw my own seed released into the great flow of seeds of life all about, a thing of the same nature as the rest.

Then my attention was directed to the thought realm in my head.  The Spirit said to me that was with what He was concerned.

Then the wisp left the way it came, out through the window, and I was back in my ordinary state of awareness.