Firstly moderators, if i have posted this in the wrong place i do apologize wholeheartedly and feel free to either move this post or delete it completely, I don't want to offend anyone.
Recently I was on a 'christian' website (well...if you could call it that, they were pretty bizarre to be honest and threw me out for saying i believed that all men would probably be saved and challenging their belief about an eternal hell where we all get jabbed by demons forever in a big fire). (That's another story).
Anyway my question is about...
Masturbation.
Yes I know, strange topic. But the Christians on this other website believed that God regarded it as a sin.
Now, first up, I don't believe its a sin. But they were TERRIFIED of doing it, even to the point of creating threads saying things like -
"I havent masturbated in 12 weeks! YIPPEE!!"
The guy even showed a utube video on the forum we were in which was all about how evil a person is for masturbating and when you do it at night, Satan is watching you etc etc, and generally making people feel TERRIBLE for being human...Young people at that.
I thought it was disgusting the way people can make their kids believe that, and I hate to think of the upbringing some of these kids have had...
I watched the UTUBE video the guy put on the forum site and....it was created by someone who was having a laugh.
The guy who had made the video wasn't even being serious and wasn't even a Christian, i read his profile and he said he just wanted to challenge peoples stupid beliefs.
So.... The guy (the masturbater for want of a better word lol)...really believed that this video was real and was terrified that Satan would come into his room if he ever touched himself.
Some of the things the moderators on the site were saying was that if people lust while they do it, then its a sin etc.
I say its perfectly natural and even explained the risks of NOT masturbating (cancer and so on). (That's another story though so I wont go into all that, but it is a common belief held by many doctors that it isn't good for someone to 'store it up for too long'.
I also believe that it is a way to PREVENT us from lusting or controlling ourselves better around others.
What are your thoughts on this?
no worries Marc...your just finding your feet, your post has been moved to the members section
Amen Taffy.
And Marc, there is nothing that you can't talk to your Father about; ask Him to teach you His ways.
Don't worship the creature more than the Creator!
Masterbation is one of at least fifteen things, if not a combination of two or more of these factors:
- insecurities that grew out of a lack of a wholesome, righteous father figure that was attentive, counseling, disciplining, nurturing, strength to your upbringing, that helped in the formation of your overall identity, including your sexual identity in how to love the opposite sex;
- having too much time on your hands and the combination of boredom and curiosity that can grow out of that in one's youth;
- being overly preoccupied with self;
- demonic lust, i.e. demonization;
- mental illness (including stress factors that are on overload);
- chemical imbalance -- not just in the sense of mental illness although fine line here if hormones are a bit much as well;
- low self esteem;
- an acting out of having been molested and/or a need for attention;
- trying to meet a need for God with one's sexual fulfillment;
- spending too much time around the wrong company and/or a preoccupation with filth such as pornography and profanity since everything comes out of the mouth that defiles, according to Jesus, but which Proverbs 4 expands on with advising caution regarding what goes into one's eyes, ears, and what comes out of one's mouth, hands, and feet in corresponding words and actions 'cause out of your heart are the issues or forces of life;
- acting on wrong information that it'll satisfy, gratify, relieve the deepest pressures, and/or promote health, virility, sexual stamina, promote intimacy in a relationship, et. al.;
- a lack of revelation from God and reverence regarding that physical body being both the temple of the Holy Spirit and of one's God breathed spouse, whomever they are;
- generational curses that need to be addressed and grown past with the Written Word of God, the Name of Jesus, the Authority of the believer, and His Blood and Holy Spirit -- 'cause absolutely nobody should be under that kind of pressure that's not right in the middle of God dealing with some immediate issue in their lives with regards to a mating season and/or the healing of a marriage and/or identity issues that may be resolved in whole or in part by God's work thru your dreams;
- an outworking of Post Traumatic Stress and/or the power of subliminal suggestion from cultural influences amounting to about the same effect on mind and body, although you'd be hard pressed to find anyone that would diagnose it as that because of a paradigm shift that's needing to occur in the medical and counseling communities that will again recognize it for the abberent behaviour that they originally rightly recognized it as;
- it's deep calling unto deep for the one that you were one with before the foundation of the world.
If you're a man, there's a woman that came into this world that was originally created out of you. If you're a woman, then you not only came from God, originally, but from the side of a guy that's out there, and for which abortion is a scary thought and you've simply got to trust that as God has preserved your life to the present time that He's preserved their life to the present time, unless there's a supernatural gift of singleness that St. Paul seems to imply belongs to some. I don't believe this necessitates both people being the exact same age, and there can be many reasons why one might be significantly older and it still be God's betrothed for the individual.
For the man, it's never another man from the standpoint that it's a restoration of what was separated from you at your creation, and for which no one will ever do, satisfy, etc., hence many more guys thinking they're gay than are actually dealing with that issue, and many more women thinking they're lesbians than are actually dealing with that issue -- 'cause in the absence of the right one, absolutely no one else will do, and that can become oppression to your soul that begins to think it either simply doesn't like women or that it likes both men and women equally or by varying degrees. And for the woman, it's never another woman, although 99.999999999999999999999999999999% of men will be the wrong man for her.
I know this creates billions of additional questions about death and remarriage, etc. But I'm trying to be brief about the masterbation question, and for me, when demons aren't involved, bad information and chemical imbalances and other mental illnesses aren't involved, then it's a yearning for a portion of a completed destiny that involves that significant other. All of the above issues can be resolved with the Written Word of God and a believer's authority in Christ Jesus over all things and times without going in the direction of self abuse, abuse of God's Holy Temple, and warring against one's very soul with demonic inspirations.
Masterbation is the really low road and there are Scriptural higher roads for dealing with every issue of one's life with the overwhelming victory of Christ Jesus. Anything that could possibly be related to causing a temptation to commit this sin is something that's already been anticipated in the Written Word of God and there's multiple promises in the Written Word thru which God has released His ability that can be activated by faith in order to gain a greater victory and a greater satisfaction and contentment from than from doing something that's genuinely unwholesome, in bad taste, lacking in dignity, and detrimental to one's well being, one's soul, and one's wholeness, length of days, long life, and prosperity.
Very interesting post Martin. Thanks for addressing it.
You've brought up things I've never ever thought about before, I'll tell you that much. :bigGrin:
God's blessing, James.
Interesting opinions, but, i was looking for some biblical grounds on this one and not human guesses, although all due respect and thank you for taking the time to respond.
I could of course have responded with 'other' man made beliefs in such. Like this...and thousands more....
"According to the Alice! Health Promotion Program, masturbation is a healthy way to express and explore your sexuality and release sexual tension. Other health professionals generally agree that private touching is a natural, normal mode of self-exploration and sexual expression".
Well, all i know is ive never known anyone who doesnt.
Masturbation is not wrong any more then sex is wrong in and of itself. I don't need specific biblical grounds for it any more than I need to find a verse that tells me it is ok to install a Stereo in my truck.
Religious assertions will make it into something it is not and create the scenario for having to feel guilty for doing something enjoyable that causes no harm and in fact is a healthy bodily function under normal circumstances.
Excessive compulsions is another matter, you can have problems that manifest themselves into compulsicve behavior and religious people really don't like it when you say that this can also manifest into going to church too much as well.
If you are find yourself doing it abnormally, compulsive like in the manner of not being able to wait, doing it at work, excessive amounts of time per day, then that is not about it being wrong, there is something else that is causing the compulsions.
If you find yourself wanting some enjoyment occasionally in that regaurd, do it.
The two biblical issues that people use are not adequate, Onan disobeyed God, it was not about what he did specifically. The lust issue will prevent even married people from being able to engage in sex without sin looming over thier heads, it's just what goes through the mind when it is occuring.
If it's not wrong, awkward, weird, et. al., then it'll stand the test of thanking God in the Name of Jesus for the whole duration that you're doing it, without bringing His Presence into it feeling the least bit awkward, convicting, embarrassing, and filling you full of shame. That's my test for absolutely every thing, is to purposefully bring His Presence into it, and if I can't do it in front of His manifested Presence with the worship music going on and my singing in other tongues, then something's evidently very wrong with it. Screw the creeds, denominations, et. al., when we can simply bring Him to walk right in on what's going on, and if He says or implies by His Presence a "QUIT IT!!" then it should never be engaged in another moment of one's entire life, and one should thank God for not having been allowed to pursue the road to Hell, 'cause although joy comes in the morning, weeping will still endure for the night.
Quote from: martincisneros on September 24, 2009, 12:50:25 AM
If it's not wrong, awkward, weird, et. al., then it'll stand the test of thanking God in the Name of Jesus for the whole duration that you're doing it, without bringing His Presence into it feeling the least bit awkward, convicting, embarrassing, and filling you full of shame. That's my test for absolutely every thing, is to purposefully bring His Presence into it, and if I can't do it in front of His manifested Presence with the worship music going on and my singing in other tongues, then something's evidently very wrong with it. Screw the creeds, denominations, et. al., when we can simply bring Him to walk right in on what's going on, and if He says or implies by His Presence a "QUIT IT!!" then it should never be engaged in another moment of one's entire life, and one should thank God for not having been allowed to pursue the road to Hell, 'cause although joy comes in the morning, weeping will still endure for the night.
I thank God for it. Yes.
Quote from: martincisneros on September 24, 2009, 12:50:25 AM
That's my test for absolutely every thing, is to purposefully bring His Presence into it, and if I can't do it in front of His manifested Presence with the worship music going on and my singing in other tongues, then something's evidently very wrong with it.
Whatever, I guess this is what you do when having sex with your wife.
Precisely -- you should try it in the Presence of God sometime -- it's a hundred thousand times stronger when the working of miracles enters in, as well as other manifestations of the Holy Spirit. It's amazing when the Song of Solomon anointing walks in and you genuinely have a consciousness that it's your ongoing coronation with the crowns of life and righteousness and all of the rewards of heaven. With my late wife, the glory of God actually lit up the room and you could see the Ark of the Covenant in the corner on our wedding night, as well as a room filled with angels -- it was amazingly holy and neither one of us could stop praising God and rejoicing during the whole evening. I wouldn't rob anyone of having that, and would take every opportunity that He affords me of saying that that's available - LITERALLY heaven on earth!!
Quote from: martincisneros on September 24, 2009, 12:59:26 AM
Precisely -- you should try it in the Presence of God sometime -- it's a hundred thousand times stronger when the working of miracles enters in, as well as other manifestations of the Holy Spirit. It's amazing when the Song of Solomon anointing walks in and you genuinely have a consciousness that it's your ongoing coronation with the crowns of life and righteousness and all of the rewards of heaven. With my late wife, the glory of God actually lit up the room and you could see the Ark of the Covenant in the corner on our wedding night, as well as a room filled with angels -- it was amazingly holy and neither one of us could stop praising God and rejoicing during the whole evening. I wouldn't rob anyone of having that, and would take every opportunity that He affords me of saying that that's available - LITERALLY heaven on earth!!
Martin, that faith has got to be admired.
But the way I see it is this.
God has seen it all before. He made penis's and all that, and to me, the body is nothing to be ashamed of, and sometimes, things just happen. I think if it's done out of purity then it's fine, and I believe it can be done purely as well.
Quote from: martincisneros on September 24, 2009, 12:59:26 AM
Precisely -- you should try it in the Presence of God sometime -- it's a hundred thousand times stronger when the working of miracles enters in, as well as other manifestations of the Holy Spirit. It's amazing when the Song of Solomon anointing walks in and you genuinely have a consciousness that it's your ongoing coronation with the crowns of life and righteousness and all of the rewards of heaven. With my late wife, the glory of God actually lit up the room and you could see the Ark of the Covenant in the corner on our wedding night, as well as a room filled with angels -- it was amazingly holy and neither one of us could stop praising God and rejoicing during the whole evening. I wouldn't rob anyone of having that, and would take every opportunity that He affords me of saying that that's available - LITERALLY heaven on earth!!
Great then we have agreed that masturbation and having sex with your wife is not wrong.
No, Paul, I was replying to this:
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on September 24, 2009, 12:56:05 AMWhatever, I guess this is what you do when having sex with your wife.
Either it's done in the Presence of God, or even in marriage to a Christian it's unequally yoked if God's not the one you're yoked with for the whole experience. Anyone that doesn't bring the Presence of God into the marriage bed doesn't know what sex is yet. He said He'd pour out His Spirit upon all flesh and He meant it. The healing gifts very often will go into manifestation in that way, as well as predictive things about the future or about immediate outpourings of God's blessings in situations that a couple are dealing with. I'm convinced that the Ark of the Covenant depicts a marriage bed, and that the endless sacrifices in the Old Testament simply typified that their marriage with God had been defiled by Adam, and when He wasn't having to pour more and more blood on it, then the consummation of the remarriage had occured.
'Cause you've got Jesus stopping at teaching about the Seed 'cause really little kids were present, while you've got Song of Solomon teaching the whole Kingdom from the perspective of the marriage bed with the identical same lessons about the progress of the Written Word thru the preaching of the Gospel being illustrated. In Song of Solomon, you've got it from the anointing of Jesus' body for burial in chapter 1, verse 12, to the eating of the honey comb after He was raised from the dead in chapter 5, verse 1 -- all of the way thru the Church age coming to a close at the end of the reign of Christ -- all of it in Song of Solomon. Hence, the marriage bed between a man and a woman is the parable of the Kingdom "ages of ages."
Therefore, the fullness of the revelation of Jesus Christ and of His Church should be revealed from the marriage bed, and all of the power of the Kingdom should flow from it mightily until the whole earth is filled with His glory. That being the case, then masterbation is obviously the gluttony and drunkenness at the Lord's table that the New Testament emphatically condemns, forbids, and says will get you judged with the same judgments that the world is judged with. It's the robbing of father and mother and saying that it is no sin 'cause it's Korban, i.e. the gift (Proverbs 28:24). It's the attempt at offering an offering without being right with one's spouse, that the Sermon on the Mount condemns and that 1Peter 3 indicates would hinder one's prayers 'cause it's not dwelling with one's spouse with the revelation knowledge of the Lord.
It's unquestionably the looking upon one's body with lust in one's heart that Jesus forbade/condemned. It's laying up for yourselves treasures upon earth rather than in the heavenlies since it's rightfully the life of someone else that's being flippantly disguarded. It's the breaking of the commandments not to steal or to covet, since St. Paul teaches that our bodies belong to the Lord and to the person that God has yoked us with. It's not the entering by the narrow gate, but by the wide gate that leads to destruction. It's allowing a bodily member to offend that Jesus says should rather be cut off rather than allowed to. It's the serving and worship of the creature rather than the Creator that's forbidden by the Scriptures, it's being weary in well doing 'cause it's not being saved to be invested in the relationship that God has for one, it's a lack of self control, a lack of godly dignity, it's side stepping participating in the divine nature, it's side stepping the exceedingly great and precious promises by which we escape the corruption that's in the world thru lust.
It doesn't allow the incorruption and immortality of the spirit a chance to shine thru and transfigure you into His own perfections, it's the antithesis of waiting upon the Saviour from heaven in Philippians 3:20-21 in the same way that waiting is taught in Psalms and Isaiah in the sense of being a waiter at a restaurant taking His order and receiving His recompense. It blasphemes the dignity of one's spouse and clothes them in shame, and it covers one's garments with violence, and claiming the need for it is to make one's words stout against the Holy One. It's incestuous against one's own divinity and sanctity of one's life. It's offering up strange fire, the sin of Balaam, the sin of the prophets of Baal that Elijah had put to death, it's mental and emotional idolatry, and if I don't shut up, I'm going to wind up throwing every book of the Bible at it somehow, but really, if there's anything that's beneath the royal dignity of everyone at these boards, that's it!!
There's deliverance from it, and if anyone feels the need for it while already married, then seek His face [diligently, Isaiah 58 style] for deliverance, which may include divorce if this can't be healed in that context, and let Him bring the one that one was made with at the very beginning of His purposes. Better to marry than to burn, but if one is still burning in the context of marriage, then one needs deliverance or didn't marry the right one, but marriage and burning aren't compatible in St. Paul's theology, which is what saying you can be married and masterbating at the same time is all about. If a need isn't being met, then one isn't married to the one that's God's wisdom for one's life because that anxiety should not be there. It is a spirit of rape that's trying to force one's sexual will upon the image of another while trying to escape going to jail over it -- yet Jesus said it's already been nailed by the courts of heaven to the back wall of Hell!
Well, the problem is taking something as a religious no no and painting this great over complicated scene of mental illness and demonization among the other non-sense over something that in and of itself is not a problem in the first place.
That is evil and seeks to destroy peoples spirits whether anyone sees it or cares.
The other problem is the emotional and religious assertivness over what people test with. The logic does not hold up, if it did then it would have been impossible for me to have changed while not holding to the criteria you talk about Martin.
I was in a church and the religious die hards studied some mega church pastors 10 step program to realizing your dreams. All of the sudden, there was sadness where non existed before because people realized that they were failing the tests and all kinds of things manifested that did not exist, crisis was created where non existed. And I have a son who realized his dream and didn't meet the criteria of these tests as it was taught.
EVIL is what that is.
Religion over complicates everything and is more about self gratification for the person applying their walk onto others. People make money off of it and they rise up in other people eyes with it, little of it is actually spiritual.
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on September 24, 2009, 02:18:37 AM
Well, the problem is taking something as a religious no no and painting this great over complicated scene of mental illness and demonization among the other non-sense over something that in and of itself is not a problem in the first place.
That is evil and seeks to destroy peoples spirits whether anyone sees it or cares.
The other problem is the emotional and religious assertivness over what people test with. The logic does not hold up, if it did then it would have been impossible for me to have changed while not holding to the criteria you talk about Martin.
I was in a church and the religious die hards studied some mega church pastors 10 step program to realizing your dreams. All of the sudden, there was sadness where non existed before because people realized that they were failing the tests and all kinds of things manifested that did not exist, crisis was created where non existed. And I have a son who realized his dream and didn't meet the criteria of these tests as it was taught.
EVIL is what that is.
Religion over complicates everything and is more about self gratification for the person applying their walk onto others. People make money off of it and they rise up in other people eyes with it, little of it is actually spiritual.
Paul I couldnt have put this better myself. To me, this subject is a load that people just cant carry, that RELIGION has stuck on mens backs.
This to me is just MORE rules and RESTRICTIONS that arent even there to start out with.
"If the son sets you free you will be free indeed".
"What?" I dont feel very free...Cant do this, cant do that, cant even have a **** now. Great. Shoot me now.
Well i for one can't stop, i really would have to hack my hands off, and even then id probably beg someone else to do it for me (id have to beg of course).
I mean, lets say i have an itchy face....do i just suffer and let the itch build? No, i scratch it. Lets say i have another itch somewhere else, that wont be satisfied until its scratched. Do i just leave it?
Really boys will be boys, its a comfort thing, even babies do it, i dont get all this stuff, its harmless, in fact id be worried if i had kids or teens that DIDNT do it and if i was a kid and my parents were telling me "ITS EVIL!!!!!!!" I would pack my bags and go and sleep out on the streets because i knew kids at that time with that kind of upbringing. Id be much more concerned as to whether they were loving kids, i wouldnt even THINK about what they do in their private time. Dear o dear.
Quote from: jesushandsarekindhands on September 24, 2009, 02:37:54 AM
I mean, lets say i have an itchy face....do i just suffer and let the itch build? No, i scratch it. Lets say i have another itch somewhere else, that wont be satisfied until its scratched. Do i just leave it?
Really boys will be boys, its a comfort thing, even babies do it, i dont get all this stuff, its harmless, in fact id be worried if i had kids or teens that DIDNT do it.
It is all about the nature of the behavior. I used to smoke, I know people who smoke less than a pack in a whole week and have smoked that way for years. I was going upwards of 3 packs a day. Was smoking the problem? Well, smoking can obviously cause problems, I seriously challenge anyone to document on any scale that would cause concern over lung cancer or emphysema patients that got there over less than a pack a week. There are exceptions to everything I suppose, but you'll be hard pressed to find them in this area.
My friend didn't really have a problem, but I could of made it into one, I had a compulsion problem not a problem with smoking cigarettes. Over time my habit increased to a compulsion that was not enjoyment. I did not inherantly enjoy smoking that much.
So there is just issues deeper than the surface of what might offend someone or what religion has built a case against.
This passage springs to my mind sometimes
Ecclesiastes 7:16 >>
Do not be overrighteous, neither be overwise--why destroy yourself?
And im sure God has a great sense of humour since he invented it. He must get a good cackle at us sometimes.
"Not again lad! Find a wife!"
sry for going a bit of topic:
but @ martincisneros
QuoteIf you're a man, there's a woman that came into this world that was originally created out of you.
do you think every man has such a woman, is it something one might call "soulmate", might you tell me more about that subject? - I think it's very interesting
Funny how there are no women weighing in here :laughing7: Not funny, haha, but typical.
Everything in moderation, I read somewhere.
Honestly, though, Martin, just because someone would have sex in front of God does not mean it is not a private matter.
There is no privacy from God - that is a silly notion. And no, my husband and I do not put on worship music in order to "get in the mood".
I think it is rather ridiculous to discuss such things, honestly, especially on a web site where there are bound to be all kinds of sexual hang-ups that vary from person to person.
hi ya,
great subject.
Well when i masturbate (sorry for giving you too much info, folks!!!) i liken it to having sex with God. I sort of mediate and think of God. Why should that produce guilt?
it can be spritual i feel.
Godbless
Nancy
A passage that possibly does speak of masterbation is 1 Cor 7:36-38, but you have to go to the original Greek. The translators interpret here, adding more or less depending on which Bible version you reference. The easiest way to correct it is understand there is no he/she/it in the pronoun. It always simply means: the SAME, and refers to nearest preceding noun, no varience if that noun is singular or plural, masculine, feminine or neuter, it remains, "the SAME." Everytime in this passage you read, "He," "his," "her," or, "them" it is always conjecture on the part of the translators. (To digress a moment, this is why arguments over translating the Greek pronoun concerning the Holy Spirit with "he," "she" or "it" display ignorance.) Sometimes translators add and bend words like the New King James Version which has in verse 36 added "daughter" and interpreted "take" to "give" saying, "he who is giving his virgin daughter in marriage..."
1 Corinthians 7:36-38...
"Now if any is inferring it to be indecent on the same's virgin, if the same may be beyond the meridan, and thus it ought to occur, what the same will, let the same do; the same is not sinning. Let the same marry.
Yet the same who stands settled in the same's heart, having no necessity, yet has authority concerning the same's will, and has decided this in the same's heart--to be keeping the same's virgin--ideally will be doing;
so that both the same marrying does ideally, and the same not out marrying does better."
Whether my understanding is correct or not, maybe someone with more knowledge of Greek can clarify.
I was sitting with my back to the opened window at a friends house. I saw a wisp of vapor, like a fog tendril come through the screen. I was in a realm above our ordinary consciousness and I saw the deep grasses and plants surging wave like in the wind, casting off seeds into the humid wind currents. The trees also were wind tossed and releasing seeds into the wind. There was a sense of superabundance of seed, of fecund fertility in the scene. It seemed I detachedly felt and saw my own seed released into the great flow of seeds of life all about, a thing of the same nature as the rest.
Then my attention was directed to the thought realm in my head. The Spirit said to me that was with what He was concerned.
Then the wisp left the way it came, out through the window, and I was back in my ordinary state of awareness.
:cloud9: That's true reFORMer.........the imaginations of men's hearts/minds are what goes out of his mouth that defiles it, for out of the abundance of the heart/mind the mouth speaks. Which is why we are to renew our minds with the washing of the water of the Word, so that the Word (whether breath or letter) is what is continually in our mouth, because it is continually in our heart.
The flesh is the recipient of the "crop" we plant, and if we are to sow to corruption (things that produce death in the body, soul, or spirit), then we will reap corruption (death), but if we sow to incorruption we will read an incorruptible body, one fashioned like unto His body.
So trying to change what the body does with the imposition of law as in touch not, taste not, only makes the bondage's stronger but if you change from the inside out thru the washing of the Word renewing the heart/mind, the power over the body is also broken. This is why the systems of carnal men cannot change anyone, because they all seek to change man from the outside in, but only the Spirit of God can change man from the inside out. Blessings.....
Unusual topic. :mshock: :mblush:
After reading the posts I thought about what Paul said in (1Cor. 6:12) All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.
It sounds to me like paul is saying all things, which would include masturbation, it is not a sin but it is not profitable. Or maybe it is to a certain extent? :laughing7: To be brought under the power of something, I guess would mean an addiction to it.
I guess you could make something wrong out of anything by abusing it, even eating for example. If I ate and ate and ate and made myself sick it would mean eating was not expedient for me. I guess this could apply to almost anything.
CHB
great post CHB! :goodpost: This made alot of sense to me :thumbsup:
:HeartThrob:rose
Quote from: sven on September 24, 2009, 07:13:43 PM
sry for going a bit of topic:
but @ martincisneros
QuoteIf you're a man, there's a woman that came into this world that was originally created out of you.
do you think every man has such a woman, is it something one might call "soulmate", might you tell me more about that subject? - I think it's very interesting
Wasn't ignoring you on this. Still in the middle of getting the fullness of the revelation of this. One thing that He added to it for me today was that each of us is created the exact same way Adam and Eve were created. I knew that part and might of said as much in a previous post, either on this thread or on another one. But literally: Genesis 1:26 God said, man was, and if you compare the first couple of chapters, there's perhaps an understood thing about Him restating Genesis 1:26, but instead spoke to the earth of the man's spirit to bring her forth rather than to the dust of the ground. God says it, Adam falls under the power of God is strongly implicit to me, as when the anointing knocked Abram on his butt when God was making that Covenant eons later. Adam's overwhelmed with the glory, so that as it says in Chronicles that the priests couldn't stand to minister because the glory of the Lord had come into manifestation.
So, they kept falling under the power in Chronicles as they'd try to minister at the dedication of Solomon's temple, is what I believe the context of that passage is, without looking at it right now. A lot of people get all upset and in a frenzy when they see people fall in the presence of the glory in Charismatic and Pentecostal circles and say that there's nothing in the Bible about it. No, it's all over the Bible. It's just not in emphasis in the circles it's not happening in. Saul of Tarsus, obviously fell, but people too easily think that's an isolated instance, when it's all over the Bible with it happening to Adam, Abram, Levitical Priests at the dedication of the temple, and countless other areas.
Not sure that that's not why Peter fell in the boat, other than having slipped on a fish 'cause Christ's covenant making language immediately followed to him. That may be a passage missed by some of the books and booklets that'll talk about falling under the power of God and the reasons for that 'cause seems to always imply some new level in God coming after that. I don't believe Jesus stumbled while carrying the Cross because of what He'd gone thru physically, but because all authority in heaven and in earth was being transfered to Him right then. And He was gonna need it as He was about to descend into Hell. Some might prematurely say that's only Catholic tradition that He fell one or more times, but John's Gospel has Him carrying His own Cross while the synoptics bring up Simon of Cyrene.
Anyway, if He spoke the end from the beginning, then He likely Created each of us before Adam and Eve even came along. So, for anyone to say "Martin, it doesn't work that way. God Created Adam and then everybody else has come out of him ever since." is genuinely a grave oversimplification. I personally believe that this is one of the reasons for the 10 to 26 dimensions spoken of in Superstring theory that they've got any hints of, mathematically and scientifically, and that God only comes down really hard about the particular conduct, such as sexual in 1Thessalonians 4, that has an impact upon both legacy as well as simply those that are yet unborn but are inhabiting that hyperspace of these other dimensions and will come forth in their due time.
1Thessalonians 4 specifically states that those that reject the command to sexual purity are emphatically rejecting God and the Holy Spirit, and contextually with the fact that then it goes into the whole thing that people misinterpret as the left behind scenario, you could extrapolate from it bringing up sexual sin before bringing that up, just as 1Corinthians brings up sexual sin before bringing up what it brings up in the 15th chapter, but if you reject sexual purity, along Biblical parameters, then you're rejecting Christ as well. Obviously, for that to be the case, then there's something grave here in this sexual sin area that has massive, massive impact upon others we can't even see that haven't even come forth yet. And I'm not saying this with regards to one's own descendants alone, since the commands to sexual purity are universal, but the commands to have physical offspring aren't. There's something held back and opposed of the plan of God when we engage in things that the Written Word emphatically says are no-nos.
Every act of obedience to the New Covenant is spiritual resistance to the current world order. Hence the Bible will simultaneously have 613 commandments in the New Testament, even in St. Paul's writings a perfect 613, yet indicate that you're not under the law. The Mosaic law was about a nation having national roots and establishing and maintaining a prophetic pattern that foretold the first coming of Christ. The New Testament is about a Kingdom having international roots and establishing and maintaining a prophetic pattern that foretells and facilitates the manifestation of Christ within us, the hope of glory. Obedience to Christ, even where it doesn't seem to matter, is the overthrowing of this whole entire current world and it's system.
Every step of obedience to the Written Word has as one of it's final outcomes in the sowing and reaping department, the destruction of the current world's system. You want to bring this whole thing crashing down? Then obey every line of that New Testament 'cause as His High Priestly ministry is able to function in greater and greater dimensions in this earth thru our covenant connection of obedience, then 1Corinthians 15 says He's actively engaged of abolishing all rule, authority, and power, so duh!
Cooperation with the One you want to overthrow all of these governments seems to ellude so many Christians -- even many that frequent these boards that are scared that if they obey absolutely all of the New Testament, then they're going to sound like Copeland or Wigglesworth 70% of the time. So, then here come the theories of maybe that doesn't really mean that, to get around wholeness and discipleship and prosperity for the whole man as a means of ministering the same to the whole creation, i.e., blessed to be a blessing; all of the religious mess that you die to receive an inheritance that Someone Else died to leave to you.
Thru sexual disobedience, one of the things that obviously comes into peril is your own spiritual travail being frustrated for that one that you're supposed to be with -- that you were created out of or that was created out of you, and Biblically this is a gender issue on which is which. If your body is frustrated from calling deep unto deep unto the one that you were made with, as a part of the living sacrifice that your spirit and soul are being until they come along, then obviously you're going to be with everyone 'cept for who you're supposed to be with and are going to delay things indefinitely if not thwart your own blessing ultimately in the name of having a bowl of beans, or to prematurely have jumping bean stimulation. I'm not going to explain that last comment. :mblush:
If someone's not with who they were originally created from or that was created from them, in the Biblical Genesis pattern, doesn't mean you can't still have a successful relationship, if the two of you are humble to live by New Testament principles. Obviously the New Testament will work 100% of the time when worked 100% in any context, and you're assured of the hundredfold. But when you're with who you're supposed to be with, that Deuteronomy 1:11 thousandfold blessing is going to be there, and actually beyond since Hebrews says that we have a better covenant established upon much better promises in all realms of life.
Sometimes the relationships where someone's with someone other than who they were formed with, and perhaps by, wind up working better than the relationships where someone's with the one they were created with or perhaps by, if they're walking a tight walk with the New Testament. Thankfully, I'm not in a rotting apple kind of situation whatsoever, but you can be with the one you were supposed to have always been with, but if someone's a fool walking after the dictates of their own reasoning rather than by chapter and verse of the New Covenant, viz., the sure mercies of David, then there's going to be intolerably horrendously damaging friction 'cause there's one or two fools in that relationship.
Doesn't mean that moving on is necessarily the best medicine, but just means a whole lot of growth has to take place between people like that, that when you hear of their stories along those lines, you just want to shoot both of them for breaking it off, then coming running back, then breaking it off, then coming running back. And you just want to grab both of them and shake 'em and say "please make up your stupid minds! is it on again or off again??!!" roflol This subject of the so-called "soul mate" as you put it, is likely the very reason for the occasional "odd couple" like that.
It's not necessarily forbidden fruit or them being poison for each other, unless it's that they're forbidden fruit or poison for each other with the current paradigms that they function with, plus it's evident that they've never grown up, if ongoing infidelities are some or all of the reason for them leaving each other and then running back 'cause that infidelity spirit they're both functioning in can't be true to the new covenants they've made and people tend to glamorize what they've moved on from, forgetting the hard cold facts of why originally moving on was best for them.
Some of the deliverance ministers will scream about soul ties that need to be broken, but perhaps that so-called soul tie is actually an umbilical cord [in a few instances] and what's needing to happen there is for one or both of them to grow up so that it'll work out between them, since not only are kids biproducts of being tied to a mother by an umbilical cord, but spiritually a man is umbilical cord tied to the one and only woman that ever proceeded from him shortly after his own Creation, when God again spoke to the soil of his being and brought her forth and then produced her in the body of her mother to "materialize" in this natural realm. And obviously the same thing happened for him before it happened to her, around the same season, or later than it happened to her. As I've previously said, they're seldom automatically born in the same year. Too many reasons and potential reasons to get into on that one on why they could even be 60yrs apart in age.
If God spoke the end from the beginning, then you can reverse, [equally as justly,] the statement in Malachi (I'm thinking chapter 2, but no Bible handy) that God produced the two into one so that He could have a godly seed. God would have likewise produced these godly seeds with the intent of bringing these godly marriage unions together. If there being no strength to carry a child to term and to have the healthy child is called blasphemy, [perhaps implying a spirit of blasphemy, Hebraically,] in the Old Testament, then I can't be 100% sure, looking at this passage in Malachi this way, that being with the wrong one isn't a type of blasphemy to an equal or lesser extent, though obviously one for which there's not as much accountability 'cause of how tight of a walk it entails with Him to be 100% sure that that one comes forth into one's life, and also because in a fallen world, in some situations it might be more of a miracle than in other cases to be with this one particular person.
A lot of unexplained deaths where folks were taken before their time, or where inspite of the strongest faith, someone died anyway, may find it's resolution in this subject to where if something happened to the one person this other person was tied to, then their own number may have been up so that while in some battle field in Iraq a soldier may have gotten blown to bits, but you can't explain why someone died of the flu on the opposite side of the world. Could the two have been linked in this way? One of 'em died, so God mercifully didn't force the other one to be in this world without their Ephesians 5 counterpart that was either their Christ or their Church.
Additionally, the opposite is often the case in miraculous comebacks from death's door. They just couldn't die because of _______ whomever they happen to be that genuinely needed them to come forth into their lives. Some of these issues are resolved in the mouths of the people involved where someone said for 20yrs that they wouldn't live past a certain age, or in some other way always had death in their confession as a joke or whatever, so as Jesus said in Mark 11:22-26, they had what they said. But where there is no priestly violations with one's tongue to be accounted for, this issue of one life in two bodies may very likely have a whole lot more to teach us about how life and death works than any of us have ever imagined!
With regards to age discrepancies between two people that were always meant to be together: Proverbs chapter 2 verse 20 thru chapter 20 verse 30, Acts 17, Galatians chapters 3 & 4, Ephesians chapters 3 & 5, 1Peter chapters 2, 3, & 5, and various other passages of Scripture would suggest that developmental issues could be involved with regards to someone's tutelege that God knows when the best time slots are to bring both into the world so that after years of being apart they'd still be the best thing that could have happened to each other. Occasionally one's the John the Baptist of the other if both lives are beyond the norm in being powerful in Him. But developmental and the apocalyptic where collections of lives are concerned are only two categories out of all of the potential things going on regarding age discrepancies.
This subject is likely why there's the occasional odd true story about someone marrying someone, divorcing them, marrying someone else, divorcing them, coming back to this first person and remarrying them, divorcing them, marrying someone else, divorcing them, and then coming back to the person they were originally married with. Folks that lack in humility to the Written Word can know EXACTLY WHO they're supposed to be with, but can't make it work over pride or underdeveloped spiritually issues.
Some people will get into silly reincarnation ideas over this very issue that there's a union with this other person that's undeniable, regardless of the current state of the relationship. And it's as though we simply always were! There's a sense of eternity in the relationship and even preexistence in it. That's not imaginery. Since the Bible permits remarriage at all, obviously it's allowing for a fallen world where folks aren't always going to hunger and thirst for the walk with who they were with before they were both in this world, where folks prematurely make marital decisions over biological clocks, emotional neediness, their sexuality, and every other reason under the Son that's not related to their mandate from heaven.
I personally think that a lot of the friction on prayers ever getting answered comes from not being with whom you're supposed to be with, so that there winds up being more legalities to have to walk out with your faith and you wind up taking 20% longer to dot every eye and cross every tea with getting what's rightfully yours of the provisions of God. Your having to overcome your own prior resistance to the provisions of God, and when it was a marriage with the one you weren't really intended to be with, then you've sorta signed a bit of a heavenly prenuptual that you're forfeiting being made to lie down in green pastures, and are opting for the warfare legalities of the Scriptures where you're getting what you want, often times still, but at such a cost in terms of such a personal straight and narrow walk!
I personally believe a whole lot of people have the sad ending of
KNOWING who they were supposed to have been with, but were cut off by circumstances from God's very good [Edenic] will that they simply either weren't sure enough about, early on enough, when they still had some fight in them for all of God's very good [Edenic] will, or they'd both created such an impossible situation for themselves to where for various reasons one or both of them find their current life's lot nonnegotiable, although in their heart of hearts they're a prisoner of this other person that they're not married to. Histories and biographies are as filled with these hints as romance novels, soaps, novelas, and any other piece of literature in the language of your choice.
Martin, interesting thoughts, but I have two questions that I'm not really sure about:
1. While I think that the idea that one has a soul mate out there whom they are made for is a very romantic idea, I'm curious how you reconcile that idea with the fact that women are beginning to slightly statistically outnumber men (http://www.census.gov/ipc/prod/wp02/wp-02004.pdf), and that men previously statistically outnumbered women? If what you say is true, ought it not be the case that there would be a precisely equal number of men and women at all times? How can everyone have a soul mate if, once every soul mate is paired up, there are humans left over?
2. Your argument for the wrongness of masturbation seems to center around the assertions that it is a defilement of sexual purity and that it comes from narcissism, neurosis, or other negative things. But, I'm not sure what evidence is being presented in favor of these ideas. It's well-known that just about everyone does it, and it has multiple confirmed health benefits (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,401722,00.html), as well. The medical community considers it (http://www.webmd.com/sex-relationships/guide/masturbation-guide) perfectly normal and harmless in itself, cautioning only that it can be something with which one can become overly preoccupied - but that that is something true of anything under the sun. So, I suppose I'm just curious to know what exactly your argument is in favor of these assertions. The consensus seems to be in, and it is neither a result of mental illness nor something harmful to one's body, but rather is something that is actually quite normal and healthy. Some have even gone so far to say that not masturbating is unhealthy. I could certainly see arguments against masturbation in the context of one doing it out of excessive and destructive lust, but in that case the problem would be the lust, not the masturbation itself.
:mrflo:
Quote from: Gab on October 07, 2009, 11:23:02 AM
Martin, interesting thoughts, but I have two questions that I'm not really sure about:
1. While I think that the idea that one has a soul mate out there whom they are made for is a very romantic idea, I'm curious how you reconcile that idea with the fact that women are beginning to slightly statistically outnumber men (http://www.census.gov/ipc/prod/wp02/wp-02004.pdf), and that men previously statistically outnumbered women? If what you say is true, ought it not be the case that there would be a precisely equal number of men and women at all times? How can everyone have a soul mate if, once every soul mate is paired up, there are humans left over?
Theoretically it makes the case supporting gay marriage and celebacy. The bible appears to contradict itself though. God commanded us to be fruitful and multiply, so that almost makes the case against celibacy. But statistically, you could work out the soul mate thing to include Gays and it would work out quite nicely since lesbianism is probably more likely to produce mates staying monogomaous with one another than males whos homosexuality is more prevantly promiscuous which is the actual problem in sexual matters.
Quote
2. Your argument for the wrongness of masturbation seems to center around the assertions that it is a defilement of sexual purity and that it comes from narcissism, neurosis, or other negative things. But, I'm not sure what evidence is being presented in favor of these ideas. It's well-known that just about everyone does it, and it has multiple confirmed health benefits (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,401722,00.html), as well. The medical community considers it (http://www.webmd.com/sex-relationships/guide/masturbation-guide) perfectly normal and harmless in itself, cautioning only that it can be something with which one can become overly preoccupied - but that that is something true of anything under the sun. So, I suppose I'm just curious to know what exactly your argument is in favor of these assertions. The consensus seems to be in, and it is neither a result of mental illness nor something harmful to one's body, but rather is something that is actually quite normal and healthy. Some have even gone so far to say that not masturbating is unhealthy. I could certainly see arguments against masturbation in the context of one doing it out of excessive and destructive lust, but in that case the problem would be the lust, not the masturbation itself.
Lust in an of itself is misconstrued as sexual attraction. Lust is actually the act of degrading something to a low level of usefulness.
While it is wonderful if a couple can put some praise music on and have a worship service while having sex if lust is applied as it is incorrectly understood then most married couples are living in sin while they have sex.
Masturbation is normal behavior and it is healthy, it is when it becomes an escape or a compulsion that it becomes a problem, just like anything else that is healthy under moderate use.
However we also have to look at things realistically and case by case. Murder in moderation doesn't make it good. But I think we can see when the bible is definatly specific and clear and when religion creates an inference.
I mean can anyone give it up...really? Maybe when i reach 90.
Quote from: jesushandsarekindhands on October 07, 2009, 06:39:55 PM
I mean can anyone give it up...really? Maybe when i reach 90.
Well, honestly, that is an emotional aspect, whether it is right or wrong has nothing to do with whether it is possible to abstain.
It is possible to abstain and there is nothing wrong with doing so if thats what a person is led to do.
Again though, there are real issues when it comes to proccupation, obsessivness or lack of control (such as those who do not do it frequently, but have been caught in public because they just had to do it then)
Their act of public masturbation is not the problem, the act of masturbation was not the problem, it is whatever is rooted and caused it to take place under abnormal circumstances.
Quote from: CHB on September 27, 2009, 09:30:21 PM
Unusual topic. :mshock: :mblush:
After reading the posts I thought about what Paul said in (1Cor. 6:12) All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.
It sounds to me like paul is saying all things, which would include masturbation, it is not a sin but it is not profitable. Or maybe it is to a certain extent? :laughing7: To be brought under the power of something, I guess would mean an addiction to it.
I guess you could make something wrong out of anything by abusing it, even eating for example. If I ate and ate and ate and made myself sick it would mean eating was not expedient for me. I guess this could apply to almost anything.
CHB
I agree with you, CHB. This is how I view it, through the lens of that verse, but with an extra bit of insight on the "not profitable/ expedient" part. The reason it's not profitable or expedient is another matter. Actual research has been done on the effect of masturbation on the male physiology, and the results 'aint pretty.
Basically, it's like anything else regarding physical training. Whatever we train our bodies to respond to, they'll respond to. Such is the case with masturbation. Unfortunately, a frequent side effect is that many men end up losing the normal response to vaginal stimulation, and all the things that go along with it, such as true orgasm (as opposed to simple ejaculation). So from a medical perspective, it could technically be considered a self-harming habit.
All things are lawful, but indeed, not all things are profitable! And that's leaving out entirely any potential spiritual or psychological considerations that may be involved on a case by case basis...
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on October 07, 2009, 06:49:35 PM
Quote from: jesushandsarekindhands on October 07, 2009, 06:39:55 PM
I mean can anyone give it up...really? Maybe when i reach 90.
Well, honestly, that is an emotional aspect, whether it is right or wrong has nothing to do with whether it is possible to abstain.
It is possible to abstain and there is nothing wrong with doing so if thats what a person is led to do.
Again though, there are real issues when it comes to proccupation, obsessivness or lack of control (such as those who do not do it frequently, but have been caught in public because they just had to do it then)
Their act of public masturbation is not the problem, the act of masturbation was not the problem, it is whatever is rooted and caused it to take place under abnormal circumstances.
I aggree with all you said.
I would like to say though, that i originally made this post because it baffled me why many many Christians were haveing problems with this 'sin' when it isn't really a sin.
It amazed me that people were more preoccupied with the question "To masturbate or not to masturbate", when there are hundreds of CLEAR biblical sins and commandments that people could be practicing and/or avoiding. Many, without practicing love, or compassion or what have you are more concerned about whether or not they should masturbate rather than love their neighbour, it seems to be a very important subject to many Christians and i just don't feel that it should be given THAT much thought - there are much more important things, but again, each to their own.
Doc verry well said!
I just wonder is there a way that it can be done and not harm and be ok really ?
I unfortunately did it the wrong way and now i cant do it at all .The hormones durring puberty realy hit me and i just could not stop. Now its as if the skin there has changed to be so unsensitive that i rarely have eny desire to do it . I may aswell call myself * self induced virgine for life * .It sounds stupid ,but if you take my place it would not feel good .
BTW martin ..I must say that your post is the longest post that a Christian ever made about masturbation in history . I could not even read 1/3 of it ,because my eyes could not handle staring at it for so long .
Please make them juuust a bit shorter .
Peace !This topic made my day :grin:
Quote from: V.I.D. on October 08, 2009, 12:16:36 AM
Doc verry well said!
I just wonder is there a way that it can be done and not harm and be ok really ?
I unfortunately did it the wrong way and now i cant do it at all .The hormones durring puberty realy hit me and i just could not stop. Now its as if the skin there has changed to be so unsensitive that i rarely have eny desire to do it . I may aswell call myself * self induced virgine for life * .It sounds stupid ,but if you take my place it would not feel good .
BTW martin ..I must say that your post is the longest post that a Christian ever made about masturbation in history . I could not even read 1/3 of it ,because my eyes could not handle staring at it for so long .
Please make them juuust a bit shorter .
Peace !This topic made my day :grin:
If I remember correctly, no one really knows where the physiological "line" is, and I also suspect that it varies from person to person. It seems to happen with frequent, long term use/ abuse of it though; so I'm sure there is a point up to which it's physiologically "safe". The only problem is that I'm not sure anyone could tell you exactly what that point is. I'm sorry to hear that you're a victim of this.
God's grace is sufficient, though.
Ask your self this
Am I under the Law of Thou Shalt Not Masturbate???
Transgression of the "Law" IS SIN...
I have never lived under the law ever since My Lord Rose From the DEAD.
AND DID AWAY WITH "ALL" LAW...
Lee Damboise II sinfreeforever@gmx.ru
I truly have to say this...
Jesus
hands
are
kind
hands
and are the same hands that touch you when and if you masturbate.
but I conclude that they are truly loving hands too. Because He does understand the human condition and his 5 senses, He is the molder.
Lee Damboise II sinfreeforever@gmx.ru
Quote from: Lee Damboise on October 17, 2009, 03:43:40 AM
I truly have to say this...
Jesus
hands
are
kind
hands
and are the same hands that touch you when and if you masturbate.
but I conclude that they are truly loving hands too. Because He does understand the human condition and his 5 senses, He is the molder.
Lee Damboise II sinfreeforever@gmx.ru
I am sorry but to me this sounds really perverted.
Those are not Jesus hands they are your hands.
I do agree Jesus understands though.
hi ya,
Had to answer to this one.
SQ don't you believe that we are to become a Christ. Not to FOLLOW Christ or be LIKE Christ but to BECOME Christ. Mother Teresa said that when she saw the destitute, the leper, the hungry, she was really looking at Christ. The Christ in ALL of us. When we see the divine in others we can feel the divine in ourselves.
Maybe going off the subject somewhat but what is so perverted about Christ masturbating! If we touch our bodies, what is so terrible about that. Didn't Jesus go to the toilet. I was led to believe that sex within marriage is a beautiful thing yet if we think of Jesus having sex, we can't believe it!!
Our bodies aren't sinful.
Godbless
Nancy
Quote from: Nancy on October 17, 2009, 08:27:47 PM
hi ya,
Had to answer to this one.
SQ don't you believe that we are to become a Christ. Not to FOLLOW Christ or be LIKE Christ but to BECOME Christ. Mother Teresa said that when she saw the destitute, the leper, the hungry, she was really looking at Christ. The Christ in ALL of us. When we see the divine in others we can feel the divine in ourselves.
Maybe going off the subject somewhat but what is so perverted about Christ masturbating! If we touch our bodies, what is so terrible about that. Didn't Jesus go to the toilet. I was led to believe that sex within marriage is a beautiful thing yet if we think of Jesus having sex, we can't believe it!!
Our bodies aren't sinful.
Godbless
Nancy
Hi Nancy, thanks for the post, I had always believed we were to be more like Christ not become a little christ.
You did make me think about following Christ though it can be hard to follow when we really only know so very little really.
Have you wondered if Jesus snuggled up with Mary Magdalene in the cold desert air?
I do believe he was tempted and never sinned, but what exactly is sin?
I never believed he didn't go to the bathroom but have wondered when he had sexual urges what he did about it if anything.
From human standpoint Jesus was a man on earth and a sinless one at that but what did he do to conquer sin?
It really wouldn't bother me if Jesus masturbated but did he?
If Jesus had sex and wasn't married then he wasn't following his own teachings.
I have more questions than answers and to believe Jesus masturbated would be speculations at best. :dontknow:
I am saying that when I do any thing in this body I breath air through, it is the moving of all of God, There are only two places in which God exists, where ever there is mass i.e. atoms and space i.e. in between atoms, of course I also believe that there is a Spark of Awareness that these two things have that I call conscientiousness and where ever any mass moves, there is currant. That is God in mass.
now to the Jesus story told by the Roman Catholic Church, there is so much I don't believe of that system, " the winners write history". or let what "they believe be written".
JC could have had married Mary M. and so on. This would not hurt my belief in Him being the son of God, and died, buried, and Rasied.. By Daddy.
Lee Damboise II