Point of Interest

[Ross]

A little observation which stimulates a different way of seeing the enemy- satan.

We all seem to recognise that Paul was a special minister. Did miracles, suffered much.....
His conversion was pretty much unexpected for him. Literally blinded by the light. No say in what happened to him.
He originally thought he was doing the right thing for God.

1 Tim 1;13 "  Even though I was formerly a blasphemer, persecutor, and insolent person. But I was shown mercy because I acted in
                 unbelief."

Why was he shown mercy?

1 Tim 1;16 " I was shown mercy so that Christ Jesus might display in me His patience as an example for those who were to believe
                    in Him for aionios life."

So he has shared about his conversion.
The point of interest for me is how he then refers to sending others to Satan for correction of their lives; confident they will be saved, but just need something to bring them under control.

1 Tim 1;20 " Among them are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan so they might be taught not to
                   blaspheme."

He knows,
1 Cor 3;15 " If someone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, however he himself will be saved, but only as through fire."
1 Cor

[Ross]

Sorry, hit a wrong key so this has posted ahead of the finishing touch.

1 Cor 5;5 " Hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord."

Point of interest for me  is that Paul is recommending handing these people over to Satan.
No church even mentions this concept, yet Paul, a stalwart promotes this concept.
To me this refutes hellfire a lot.

Also adding to the deception of the recognition of Satan having a role to play;

2 Cor 11;14,15 " For Satan himself disguises himself as an angel of light; so it is no great surprise if his servants also disguise
                         themselves as servants of righteousness. Their end will be according to their works."

Satan, the liar/murderer from the beginning, must have been given a role to play in our education about good and evil.
However, Christ sets us free totally from that kingdom and transfers us to the kingdom if light at our appointed time, having been shown the error of our ways and the need for a comprehensive rescue to the true love of God.

[sheila]

first principles..in the garden..tokogae =satans ways as 'angel of light" and the day ye eat of it ye shall die. unto the dust the flesh

returns[from which it was taken] and the spirit returns unto God.  therefore all the worlds deceived[satan deceives the entire earth]

  and the resulting confusion[Babylon] results in all the blood spilled[forgiveness of sin when blood poured out]  the blood is the spirit

of life...and men's blood under the altar of heaven is the return unto heaven of man's spirit.


   first resurrection associated with appointed to die once.[delivered from this body undergoing this death].and spirits of just men

made perfect.

   second death=twice dead= spirit not raised and drawn up to bear the incorrupt image of Christ......

  it is man's  spirit that is saved..flesh and blood can not inherit..and man's spirit is saved from the second death :2c:

[marie glen]

I think I see this a bit differently.. as destruction of the flesh as being the destruction of the carnal nature, the flawed character and nature.. But the translations, it seems, to me make it sound like "the body". I've always viewed 'the soul' as the psyche and the person.. "and man became a living soul"

to me 1Corinthians 5:5 would read closer to "hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh" (carnal, unsaved, flawed nature) "so that his spirit" (his life, his being, personality) "may be saved on the day of the Lord."

Satan, the liar/murderer from the beginning, must have been given a role to play in our education about good and evil.

I believe this too.. the way I came to think about it after pondering and prayer, is I found myself wondering why had God created the universe and man and woman, after the adversary's revolt - "I saw the adversary fall like lightning" Jesus said. (Rev 12:4 but not 12:9)

To me, he is the tragic bad example.. That within any rational creature is the possibility of falling away.. And the depths to which any can fall is bottomless..

"handing over to Satan" spoken by Paul or a human, I would take to be a figure of speech.. And we know his persecution/tribulations and adversities of life can sift like wheat (the chaff from the grain) - as does praise! and our own yielding/willingness..

[jugghead]

Again I will say, man can have no comprehension of forgiveness if there was never a transgression of the law

The forgiveness of sin is PROOF that the Father truly loves us, therefore the transgression of the law (by ALL) was necessary for man to understand the full capacity of the Father's love through forgiveness (through Christ)

Mankind makes the mistake of a separation of the law, meaning that it can be viewed as ten different laws (Ten Commandments) which they are, but viewed that they can break one without the breaking of another which is a misconception. (missed conception)

Break one = break all

His law cannot be seen as ten different sticks and you can break one without the breaking of another

His law has to be viewed as ONE (AS the Father and the Son are ONE) one stick with all law written upon it, break the stick and the whole law is broken [which can also be viewed as the law and the Spirit of the law]

Seeing this we can also see that the breaking of the whole law is also the breaking of the Spirit separated into two (or two sons or mixture)

Which is also a picture of the breaking of the stone tablets, the sin of idolatry was not just the breaking of the first commandment (You shall have no other Gods before me) but a breaking of the whole law

Therefore I see the turning over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh is for the purpose of that when the time comes (each in their own time) they shall fully comprehend the forgiveness of sin

Don't know if that makes sense to some, but that is what I see

[Ross]

Again I will say, man can have no comprehension of forgiveness if there was never a transgression of the law

Right on.

Therefore I see the turning over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh is for the purpose of that when the time comes (each in their own time) they shall fully comprehend the forgiveness of sin

Amen! Actually being shown the difference between right and wrong- the whole point of the tree of knowledge- being shown directly by the author, ergo no miss-translation anymore.

[eaglesway]

For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now.

The creation was subjected to futility. Satan is the stir stick of futility(chaos/sin/death). As in the beginning, form became out of nothingness- and nothingness is chaos/futility(without form and void). The words "Let there be light" were spoken as an eternal word, "Today if you hear His voice" so that every soul will be called forth from the void into the substance of God's love-the Spirit.(the Spirit hovered over the waters).

Being expelled back into chaos is a way to make the void visible, the chaos, identifiable. Chaos is fire, and Peter says,

For when they maintain this, it escapes their notice that by the word of God the heavens existed long ago and the earth was formed out of water and by water, 6through which the world at that time was destroyed(apoleto), being flooded with water. 7But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment(kriseos) and destruction(apoleias) of ungodly men.

      8But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day. 9The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements(stoicheion-elementary principles) will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be laid bare(heurethesetai- exposed).

11 Since all these things are to be destroyed(lyomenon dissolved) in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed(dissolved) by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat! 13 But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells.


The end of the burning is the dissolution of the "elementary principles of the world"(Col 2) and the "laying bare" of evil works(tokogae systems). This(imo) equates to 1 Cor 15, the anullment of all "rule power and authority" because every adversary is subjected to love and God has become "all in all".

That is the wide view, the eternal view, and yet in principle, it is the same in every view. Form(Christ's) arising out of chaos... For God, who said, "Light shall shine out of darkness," is the One who has shone in our hearts to give the Light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ".(2 Cor 4)

Occasionally God must send us back into chaos so that we will remember what we were delivered from and how we were delivered, by the simplicity of faith in Christ, and faith works by love. Out there, in the void, the Spirit hovers over the water, brooding over the seed that must be re-sown in the heart, devotion to Him, love for our neighbor, and repugnance for arrogance and all the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

My dear children, for whom I am again in the pains of childbirth until Christ is formed in you, Gal 4

In fact, the way I look at it, all of mankind has been treated to this process, Adam, ejected from the Garden and kept out by the "flaming sword" of Hebrews 4:12,13


12 For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.For all things are open to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do.

If we allow/agree with the exposure He says, "To the one who overcomes I will give to eat of the tree of life"

Who among you is wise and understanding? Let him show by his good behavior his deeds in the gentleness of wisdom. 14But if you have bitter jealousy and selfish ambition in your heart, do not be arrogant and so lie against the truth. 15This wisdom is not that which comes down from above, but is earthly, natural, demonic. 16For where jealousy and selfish ambition exist, there is disorder and every evil thing. 17But the wisdom from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, reasonable, full of mercy and good fruits, unwavering, without hypocrisy. 18And the seed whose fruit is righteousness is sown in peace by those who make peace. James 3

Hymeneaus and Philetus, Jannes and Jambres, Diotrophes, Simon the sorcerer.... all these were examples of men who forgot the exhortation

"Have in you the same attitude that was in Christ Jesus"...who was lifted up because He bowed the lowest. In all these cases the discipline follows the one consistent principle of God... all discipline is for the moment unpleasant but in the end yields- the peacable fruit of righteousness....


But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells.

dwells= 2730 katoikéō (from 2596 /katá, "down, according to," intensifying 3611 /oikéō, "dwell, reside") – properly, settle down as a permanent resident, i.e. in a fixed (permanent) dwelling place as one's personal residence; (figuratively) "to be exactly at home."

[jugghead]

Again EW, excellent ..... it is like viewing the comparison between a flood and a fire, a flood covers everything whereas a fire only burns in certain places at certain times

If He revealed the truth all at once to our hearts and minds it would be overwhelming and I believe would drive us to insanity, whereas with fire, bits and pieces are burned away at different times for the purpose of showing us mercy.

A little at a time vs. all at once ..... that in itself is the mercy and wisdom of the Father

I would also like to say EW ..... I have noticed you quote Hebrews 4:12 quite often ..... that in itself is seeing the importance of it, a literal sword can separate (cut) flesh , it can separate flesh from spirit (killing the body separates the spirit from it) but what it cannot do is separate the spirit of lies from the Spirit of Truth ..... only His Word can do that.

It is why I believe Christ tongue is compared to a sword, His spoken word (spoken is why it is the tongue) is what divides one spirit from another which is also what we see in day one of Genesis, it separates the light from the darkness ..... it is the first step (day one) of the process we are brought into ..... the first step of the seven days of creation (us into Him) being made into His image ..... which we see in verse 26 ..... the end result.

[eaglesway]

Yes, exactly. That is why it is the quickened and active word that divides light from darkness, soul from spirit, bone from marrow. The letter cannot do that.

My experience is that before a person can "rightly divide the word of truth" they must be "rightly divided by the sword of the Spirit".

"Today if you hear My voice."

"Let the one who has ears to hear hear what the Spirit is saying."

"To the one who has more shall be given, to the one who has not, even that which he has will be taken away."