The inequality of it all.

[Dandelion]

I want to 'throw out' this thought.

If God knew the outcome of our lives, which He must, and if knew that some people would accept Him and go to Heaven, while others would not be able to accept him and would go to Hell, then, He created 2 entirely different groups of people, in the most important area of our lives, which is whether or not we would accept Him.

And, if God could do that, then He does not love all of us the same. If He does not love all His children the same, then Love does fail, contrary to 1 Corinthians 13:8, which says that Love never fails. And, I don't believe that is the God I know.

Your thoughts?

14Therefore, since we have such a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold firmly to what we profess. 15For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who was tempted in every way that we are, yet was without sin. 16Let us then approach the throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need.  Hebrews 4:14-16

D.

[Ross]

I.M.O we can only develop/have an opinion from the experience we have personally gone through- so if we have had bad examples or experiences in our interaction with siblings, peers, parents, work colleagues, - then we will have a negative outlook. This can severely affect our understanding of God- ergo questions like-
    " Why does God allow this?'
     " If there is a God He would not work this way! "
     " Where is God?"

If we have a loving situation around us then there is a brighter outlook on life and a willingness to help others more readily.

Paul makes the point in 1 Cor 1;21-31 about the wisdom of God in comparison to the wisdom of man- with the key point at verse 20
   " Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?"

and verse 28 " God chose the things the world considers insignificant, and contemptible, what is regarded as nothing, so that no one
                       can boast in the presence of God."

Man is working to a different definition of love. Fortunately God works to the true definition of love which indeed NEVER fails.

1 John 4;18-20 " There is no fear in love, but perfect love drives out fear because the fear has to do with punishment, so the one who
                     fears has not been perfected in love. We love because He first loved us.
                    If someone says 'I love God' but hates his brother, he is a liar; for the one who does not love his brother whom he has
                   seen, cannot love God whom he has not seen."

This seems to explain the problem people are having grasping the love of God- they can be under the impression of knowing God, yet if they hate a brother they are not really grasping the perfect love.
I remember being exactly like that when attending church- heard the sermons about the love of God, yet still hated some around me. Now no longer do but rather realise that it is not their time yet to know the glorious truth and they will come to their point of growth at their appointed time. Which indeed highlights even more the love of God which goes beyond our ability to comprehend.

[Dandelion]

I have come to know that God can rescue any situation, and can rescue us from bitterness and anger.

As Jesus said so many times in the Gospel, "Go, your faith has saved you." If we seek Him, if we seek the Light of this World, we can be freed from a terrible past, and learn to love, sometimes even more than we might have, had we not experienced what we did.

Truly, all things work together for God for those who love God and are called to His purpose.

I also believe, we need to learn to walk in the Spirit, and I know I have said this before, many times, on this site.

To see beyond this material world, we must be willing to let go of self; pride; ego, and learn to embrace God's light.

As I said to my friend recently, people look at our journey with God as a sort of Indiana Jones movie, in which we must dodge and battle to find Him, which is partly so, but I do think, in the end, it is really more like The Wizard of Oz, when Dorothy finally learns all she ever had to do to go home was to click her heals together and believe that she could go home.....and she did. God is waiting to hug us; kiss us; kill the fatted calf for us; put a ring on our finger; a robe on our backs and take us home again....just like the prodigal son's father did. He is running to greet us, even now.

D. 

[marie glen]

I can't speak for any one else's understandings.. but the only thing that makes sense to me is that I somehow ended up the recipient of a lucky throw of the Heavenly dice.. now I know that would likely be silliness to some in the body of Jesus.. but how else did it happen if it's nothing I do or am..? The thing that balances it out to my way of thinking, or the other side of the coin is that ultimately our Father had basically two choices. That tongue in cheek, I think of as His thinking.. should we have rational/thinking creatures/beings? Or should we have an ant farm?

I really don't know how there would be other choices. So to my mind - and it's in large sense, to me, like the final, or a biggest piece of the puzzle

That of course before doing any act of creation, He could see ALL possibilities.. and then, logically, it seems to me, He has done all things just as He has in order to bring about the very best of all 'end' results. And it seems obvious to me that we are not now, nor shall we be, an ant farm.

I get a lot of grief over this. Others, I guess, find this hard to believe, and I find it hard to believe they find it hard to believe :smile: As it seems rather obvious to me. But of course I could be waay off in left field. It wouldn't be the first time! :doh:

So I'm thinking He chose to endow thinking ability, and when He did, I'm thinking a whole new world (er, tree) of possibilities came about - All according to His foreknowledge of course! And due to the fact that (surely?) to have thinking ability includes, sooner or later, the ability to make at least some choices.

Now I know there's lots of folks who believe HE makes all choices.. and we merely follow the path laid out. But this doesn't make any logical sense to me. If i cheat on my husband it was Gid's choice and engineering? What about "God tempts no man?" Or woman..

And if that were the case, why would any one be required to repent, change their mind and change their ways.. And if the results of my sins and transgression brings death..  Well how am I or anyone learning consequences if we are fully programmed and there is no choice or will on my part or any one's part at all?

Why did He create the universe and man and woman after the first rebel? The serpent did after all tempt and trick.. And it's not like our Heavenly Father didn't know what was going to happen. As some in the churches seem to think. But how is thAt possible?!

I kid you not, I have had conversations with folks who argued vehemently that God carried out the crimes of Stalin, Hitler, and all the rest, great and small., and one was a Christian universalist and I didn't say so, but isn't that just about the same as accusing God of 'hell'.. almost, not quite.

By Babel Tower every thought of most was continually evil. Allowed by God.. The fall and subjection of all engineered by God.. Letting choice run its course.. Interfering of course, by calling Israel, by the flood, etc, etc.. and especially the rescue/salvation. Without which I believe ALL would perish. For I believe God iS life.. and is also perfection. So to choose in any tiny thought, word or deed other than He chooses is what? Imperfection, the opposite of life.

And, there's this, since He iS life (itself) He lives through, suffers and experiences ALL sufferings, indignations and horrors which EVER occur! :faint: Why.. would He put Himself through all that!?

Perhaps because He's not creating an ant farm, but His own family! And an un-breakable paradise/perfection.. Unbreakable for all will FULLY understand good from evil, which is life from death (nonlife).. as in do not go that way.. ever.. it simply cannot ever, no never, work. To wander from Him/Life can only end in nonlife.. were He to let us go.. I believe this is a totally unavoidable journey (lesson) ...unavoidable if there's to be rational creatures.. Writing His law on our heart.. Every heart and mind .. and psyche..

Thanks for letting me get on my soapbox :laughing7: :blah: :soap:

[marie glen]

Amen, D. :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

       And Ross too! :

:gsmile: :cloud9:

[jabcat]

I can't speak for any one else's understandings.. but the only thing that makes sense to me is that I somehow ended up the recipient of a lucky throw of the Heavenly dice.. now I know that would likely be silliness to some in the body of Jesus.. but how else did it happen if it's nothing I do or am..?

My memory is jogged back to a very old post (maybe a couple different ones) - several years ago - from someone who had stated they had a revelation of a sort of "heavenly lottery".  I.e., drawing lots to see what spirit would play what role during this lifetime - knowing that all would ultimately be reconciled.  Also, recalling it said that they were made aware of the spirits leaving Father, rejoicing, willingly fulfilling whatever was their lot in this life - whether one of hardship/loss, or gain/choice/luxury.   

**Cardinal, was that you that shared something along these lines years ago?

[jabcat]

To the OP;  I read this morning romans 9.  To me, it's very clear that God - in this life - has purposes for various individuals and groups.  Choosing some, hardening others.  Drawing contrasts, a tension between good and evil, light and dark.  For some purpose and outcome that's above my head.  The saving grace is the ultimate reconciliation, where although apparently in the next ages there may still be "levels" of service and rewards etc., still, someday all will truly be spiritual brothers and sisters, children of God, and worship together at His feet.   :thumbsup:

[Dandelion]

1 Corinthians 12:

12The body is a unit, though it is comprised of many parts. And although its parts are many, they all form one body. So it is with Christ. 13For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free, and we were all given one Spirit to drink.

14For the body does not consist of one part, but of many. 15If the foot should say, "Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body," that would not make it any less a part of the body. 16And if the ear should say, "Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body," that would not make it any less a part of the body. 17If the whole body were an eye, where would the sense of hearing be? If the whole body were an ear, where would the sense of smell be?

18But in fact, God has arranged the members of the body, every one of them, according to His design. 19If they were all one part, where would the body be? 20As it is, there are many parts, but one body.

21The eye cannot say to the hand, "I do not need you." Nor can the head say to the feet, "I do not need you." 22On the contrary, the parts of the body that seem to be weaker are indispensable, 23and the parts we consider less honorable, we treat with greater honor. And our unpresentable parts are treated with special modesty, 24whereas our presentable parts have no such need.

But God has composed the body and has given greater honor to the parts that lacked it, 25so that there should be no division in the body, but that its members should have mutual concern for one another. 26If one part suffers, every part suffers with it; if one part is honored, every part rejoices with it.

Different roles, but one body of Christ. All may not seem part of the body of Christ, here on earth, but, eventually, we all will be united, in Christ.

D.

[jugghead]

And, there's this, since He iS life (itself) He lives through, suffers and experiences ALL sufferings, indignations and horrors which EVER occur! :faint: Why.. would He put Himself through all that!?

I would like to say only one thing to this ..... how can anyone truly help another if they cannot identify exactly with what someone is going through?

He has lived all of our lives, the honor to now live HIS is priceless

[jabcat]

1 Corinthians 12:

12The body is a unit, though it is comprised of many parts. And although its parts are many, they all form one body. So it is with Christ. 13For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free, and we were all given one Spirit to drink.


eventually, we all will be united, in Christ.

D.

Yes, I believe the body of Christ currently is the ecclesia, the "called out ones" (through grace, not works or merit).  And all will ultimately be united, in Christ, as you say.

[Dandelion]

Agreed.

[Ross]

I can't speak for any one else's understandings.. but the only thing that makes sense to me is that I somehow ended up the recipient of a lucky throw of the Heavenly dice..

:thumbsup: Amen!

The history throughout the old testament of things happening by lot speak volumes about this very principle.
Other nations have events which use the short straw concept. This very idea makes sense about how some have been chosen for specific tasks; all part of designation to prove principles whilst we are in this initial/temporary/growing state of being- just like being in the womb having effects on how we literally turn out with character.

A specific situation, for me, to emphasise this principle;

John 11;49-51 " But one of them, Caiaphas, who was high priest that year, said to them,
                          ' You know nothing at all. Or do you not realise that it is to your advantage that one man should die for the people
                            and that the whole nation should not perish?'
                       HE DID NOT SAY THIS ON HIS OWN, BUT BEING HIGH PRIEST THAT YEAR, HE WAS PROPHESYING THAT JESUS
                       WAS ABOUT TO DIE FOR THE NATION, "

Pretty important role to play.

Christ mentions a few times through the book of John how He was telling the disciples things that would occur before they happened so that they would then be shown later what these things meant. Would seem to have been explained to them during the fory days of contact with Christ before the resurrection [Acts 1;3]

Plus Christ points out what I now consider a key to the whole allotment concept;
John 15;16 " You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit
                    should remain, so that the Father may give you whatever you ask in my name."
Plus;
John 17;9 " I am praying for them; I am NOT praying for the world but for those you have given to Me for they are Yours;"

I know that ALL will be saved, but as Paul points out, each in their own turn. Seems to emphasise that we are all individual children of our loving Father just like we see in our current family roles- we have siblings, from the same parents, but have our own character and position within that family- all seems to be a little glimpse of our family to come in the next age.
For me, this overcomes the inequality problem.

[eaglesway]

Things seen through a glass darkly, I think.

"Who has known the mind of the Lord, Who has been His counselor."

Altho it seems simplistic to many, I say, God knows all things and all of time and eternity is within His immediate purview. But we, as mortals within the bubble of time, are not allowed this view, this supreme wisdom, so we trust Him. We heed the exhortation of scripture because it is spoken to us from a perspective of our existence in time. We trust God that He has all the eternal ramifications of our activity, to what extent our path is chosen and guided, to what extent He allows us to choose, because we just dont have the view from the height of His over-arching wisdom.

When all is said and done, we will understand things that now seem as huge paradoxes, because when love has conquered all, and all rule power and authority is abolished, we will know as we are known and rejoice at the glory of His gracious good will.

In the meantime we trust that love is enough, and God has more than enough love to capture all, eventually.

Therefore it says,
            "WHEN HE ASCENDED ON HIGH,
            HE LED CAPTIVE A HOST OF CAPTIVES,
            AND HE GAVE GIFTS TO MEN."

(Now this expression, "He ascended," what does it mean except that He also had descended into the lower parts of the earth? He who descended is Himself also He who ascended far above all the heavens, so that He might fill all things.) Eph 4:8-10

Similarly, Paul says

But the righteousness of faith speaks in this way, "Do not say in your heart, 'Who will ascend into heaven?'" (that is, to bring Christ down from above) 7 or, "'Who will descend into the abyss?'" (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8 But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart" (that is, the word of faith which we preach): 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.....

and

Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait until the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of the heart. At that time each will receive their praise from God.

and

Nevertheless, God's solid foundation stands firm, sealed with this inscription: "The Lord knows those who are his," and, "Everyone who confesses the name of the Lord must turn away from wickedness."

I think God leaves a lot more grey areas than man is comfortable with. But they are not grey to Him. But my trust in Him is not based in having it figured out. Some things seem paradoxical, or even non sensible to us but, His ways are higher than our ways, and I am ok with that, and I know you all are too.  :laugh:

[jugghead]

Very nicely put EW ..... a question in itself can be viewed as darkness or being brought into darkness and the answer in itself can be viewed as light or being brought into the light

I believe the day we stop asking questions is the day we choose to remain in darkness which is the same as: if we think we have all the answers that too is to remain in darkness because no more questions are being asked

He is infinite, therefore, there is always more

Just this morning He asked me a question, brought me into darkness (the unknown), He asked me, "Why didn't I say "Let there be day" since I called the light day?"

Which even this is a picture of Abraham (faith) being brought into a foreign land (darkness), not knowing what is in store for us, but we always enter into darkness with the faith He has given us so that when the light is revealed, we now know why He brought us there in the first place.

Blessings to all

[sheila]

  'Yeah though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death......"

[eaglesway]

Which even this is a picture of Abraham (faith) being brought into a foreign land (darkness), not knowing what is in store for us, but we always enter into darkness with the faith He has given us so that when the light is revealed, we now know why He brought us there in the first place.

:iagree:

[Dandelion]

Matthew 20:

The Parable of the Workers
1For the kingdom of heaven is like a landowner who went out early in the morning to hire workers for his vineyard. 2He agreed to pay them a denariusa for the day and sent them into his vineyard.

3About the third hour he went out and saw others standing in the marketplace without anything to do. 4'You also go into my vineyard,' he said, 'and I will pay you whatever is right.' 5So they went.

He went out again about the sixth hour and the ninth hour and did the same thing.


6About the eleventh hour he went out and found still others standing around. 'Why have you been standing here all day long doing nothing?' he asked.

7'Because no one has hired us,' they answered.

So he told them, 'You also go into my vineyard.'b

8When evening came, the owner of the vineyard said to his foreman, 'Call the workers and pay them their wages, starting with the last ones hired and moving on to the first.'

9The workers who were hired about the eleventh hour came and each received a denarius. 10So when the original workers came, they assumed they would receive more. But each of them also received a denarius.

11On receiving their pay, they began to grumble against the landowner. 12'These men who were hired last worked only one hour,' they said, 'and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden and the scorching heat of the day.'

13But he answered one of them, 'Friend, I am not being unfair to you. Did you not agree with me on one denarius? 14Take your pay and go. I want to give this last man the same as I gave you. 15Do I not have the right to do as I please with what is mine? Or are you envious because I am generous?'

16So the last will be first, and the first will be last."


Now, I know that this is supposed to be an alagory, pertaining to the Israelites and the Gentiles, but, I believe that the thought process might still be the same, for all of us. I think it speaks of the equality, if that is the right word to use, of all who eventually come to Jesus. I think that God is saying that the time is not important, but your heart is important, and whenever you come to believe, you are joyfully accepted, and can take your place among the children of God.

Thank you to those of you who have responded to my OP. Great thoughts and ideas to consider and think about.

D.