Hiya everyone :) I hope everyone's week is going great!
I recently have been thinking about the resurrection a lot and the idea of a bodily resurrection of the dead. Now, I'm really not trying to judge or dictate what anyone should believe. This is just personally what I have been led to. But, I am fully convinced (which I truly believe is a prompting of the Holy Spirit) that the resurrection of the dead (at the end of the world/age/aeion/whatever (lol) is physical and bodily. I definitely don't believe that our bodies will be an exact replication of what they are now. I love the seed metaphor which Paul uses. Our bodies now are seeds and will flourish into exactly what our Creator intended them to be, both spiritual and physical. I personally also believe humans were created to be embodied beings (rather than just a spirit using a body - if that makes sense.
I, however, have been feeling a bit disheartened. During the course of my UR research, almost all of the resources I come across (like over 90%) don't believe in a bodily resurrection or a life on a New (restored) Earth. I don't personally have ANY issues with Preterism, btw. In fact, I personally consider myself to be a Partial Preterist. :)
Anyway, I just kinda wanted to ask, are there any good online UR resources that do believe in a physical resurrection? I hope that no one feels attacked by this post btw :) my purpose isn't to argue doctrine or debate or anything, but maybe to just feel a little bit less alone. I feel like it's really hard sometimes believing UR and also holding believes like salvation by faith alone, a final resurrection, etc. It would be good to know that I'm not the only one out there :dsunny:
Don't have any resources handy, but to let you know you're not alone - I too believe in a resurrected new body, "changed in the twinkling of an eye". :thumbsup: :dsunny:
I believe that our resurrection will be as Jesus' resurrection, in a body that is physical but spiritually glorified ....."Brethren, we know not yet what we shall be but when He appears we will be like Him for we shall see Him as He is."
Even as death is swallowed up by immortality the physical will be swallowed up by the spiritual, "Behold I am making all things new".
Completely gathered into the all in all and spiritually renewed beyond anything our minds can presently conceive.
I marvel at the attempts of believers to specifically define that which John said he could not define, and Paul as well described as a diversity of glories like unto the moon, the planets and the stars..... and as yet unknown.
1 Cor 15
So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.
I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
John 20:27:42
Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe."
1 John 3:2
Beloved, we are God's children now, and what we will be has not yet appeared; but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he is.
:thumbsup: john
Quote from: jabcat on January 31, 2018, 12:55:09 AM
Don't have any resources handy, but to let you know you're not alone - I too believe in a resurrected new body, "changed in the twinkling of an eye". :thumbsup: :dsunny:
Hi :) I'm sorry for this maybe sounding a bit weird but you have no idea how relieved I am to hear that. God bless :dsunny:
Quote from: eaglesway on January 31, 2018, 01:16:45 AM
I believe that our resurrection will be as Jesus' resurrection, in a body that is physical but spiritually glorified ....."Brethren, we know not yet what we shall be but when He appears we will be like Him for we shall see Him as He is."
Even as death is swallowed up by immortality the physical will be swallowed up by the spiritual, "Behold I am making all things new".
Completely gathered into the all in all and spiritually renewed beyond anything our minds can presently conceive.
I marvel at the attempts of believers to specifically define that which John said he could not define, and Paul as well described as a diversity of glories like unto the moon, the planets and the stars..... and as yet unknown.
1 Cor 15
So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.
I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
John 20:27:42
Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe."
1 John 3:2
Beloved, we are God's children now, and what we will be has not yet appeared; but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he is.
:iagree: :dsunny: :banana:
Does not sound weird at all. Paul declared that he was on trial for proclaiming the resurrection of the dead. In Acts 17 the thing it says the assembled philosophers at Mars Hill wanted to continue the conversation about was the resurrection of the dead. In Hebrews 6 the "resurrection of the dead" is one of 6 foundation doctrines that must be understood before one can move on into maturity.
With the assault that is being made upon this important doctrine among believers and unbelievers alike in this day, it is an extremely important issue upon which we must STAND in order to have a secure foundation as disciples correctly teaching the gospel.
Amen !! :dsunny: :HeartThrob:
I believe it will be a gloried body also , Like Jesus showed James and Perter on the mount ,His body Shone like brilliant white light and even Moses and Elijah was recognizable to them :thumbsup:
But incorruptible , I wonder if they were seeing with physical eyes or with eyes of the Spirit , It is the LORD that gives us
a new clean heart / removing the idols and new spirit within , that healing , so we can see Him and ears to hear what the Spirit is saying , I know Jesus told them at the foot washing , that they were clean because of the Word He spoke to them .. but continue to wash one another feet was His command to give an authoritative order.
Ezekiel 36 A New Heart and Spirit
...25"Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean;
I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols.
26"Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you;
and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.
27"I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances....
I believe the heart of flesh is Jesus Love for His Father as we are to '' eat my body and drink my blood '' , that you may have Life in you , that is to say, Keep consuming HIS WORD of truth and do not forget to share . :friendstu:
MrsOzera, I think I know how you feel. Lately I am feeling a general disillusionment with the whole body of Jesus. Don't get me wrong, I still love them.. but geesh, how did we get to the point where there is so much differences in view and belief.. and here we are all reading and studying the same bible! (I surely wish we all had a brief, down to earth message to deliver and communicate. Especially UR, so we could be heard above the babble.)
But.. enough of that rant(?)
I came across this just yesterday which I found very interesting.. Irenaeus was a disciple of Polycarp who was a disciple of the apostle John.. So pretty close to the original message as the apostles heard it.
Irenaeus' "Rule of Faith" (Late 2nd Century)
"...this faith: in one God, the Father Almighty, who made the heaven and the earth and the seas and all the things that are in them; And in one Christ Jesus, the Son of God, who was made flesh for our salvation; And in the Holy Spirit, who made known through the prophets the plan of salvation, and the coming, and the birth from a virgin, and the passion, and the resurrection from the dead, and the bodily ascension into heaven of the beloved Christ Jesus, our Lord, and his future appearing from heaven in the glory of the Father to sum up all things and to raise anew all flesh of the whole human race..."
I found the quote here, a page about Christian creeds - http://coldcasechristianity.com/2014/the-importance-and-early-use-of-creeds/
:dontknow: I'm curious now.. so will be on the look out for UR articles about this. :Peace2:
Quote from: eaglesway on January 31, 2018, 02:01:58 AM
Does not sound weird at all. Paul declared that he was on trial for proclaiming the resurrection of the dead. In Acts 17 the thing it says the assembled philosophers at Mars Hill wanted to continue the conversation about was the resurrection of the dead. In Hebrews 6 the "resurrection of the dead" is one of 6 foundation doctrines that must be understood before one can move on into maturity.
With the assault that is being made upon this important doctrine among believers and unbelievers alike in this day, it is an extremely important issue upon which we must STAND in order to have a secure foundation as disciples correctly teaching the gospel.
Amen! :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
QuoteMrsOzera, I think I know how you feel. Lately I am feeling a general disillusionment with the whole body of Jesus. Don't get me wrong, I still love them.. but geesh, how did we get to the point where there is so much differences in view and belief.. and here we are all reading and studying the same bible! (I surely wish we all had a brief, down to earth message to deliver and communicate. Especially UR, so we could be heard above the babble.)
Sorry to be
that guy, but when I read this it quickly came to mind, that, we are called to love our enemies. This may not only include strangers that we meet for the first time, but also those who we most notably care for the most, and everything in between. When we
love our enemies, we do not do it for something in return, we do it because of God, and for the sake of goodness. When someone acts a way you dislike vehemently, just put that outside of your communal conversations! No benefit is given through
vengeance, through
revenge, through
payback. When they fall of the rails, we acted, act, and will act as an anchor, to be there for them when things go wrong. Even without our presence, may they see the light of Christ in us, and they remember someone to grow in, to mature with, and to love.
So, to recap, we love because God loves, we give because God gives, and we heal others because God heals us.
Good find though! I am aware of that ministry, though, I haven't read their creed yet.
As for MrsOzera, I believe what you said as well. Honestly, I thought a bodily resurrection was what a majority of people believed until you mentioned the opposite! At least, pertaining to more UR minded believers. I did know, though, that most people believe in a far away place called Heaven(basically a Christian Nirvana) instead of New Earth life. In fact, I was one of those people until recently. :)
QuoteI love the seed metaphor which Paul uses. Our bodies now are seeds and will flourish into exactly what our Creator intended them to be, both spiritual and physical.
That is a good find as well! We are basically God as a gardener makes sense here. We are planted now, nourished by Christ, and watered by God. And, later on, our glorified selves will be as flowers that spring forth on the first day of Spring.
QuoteI personally also believe humans were created to be embodied beings (rather than just a spirit using a body - if that makes sense.
Well, for me, I believe we are souls that use a body and are powered by the Spirit. Are you powered by God, are powered by worldly desires and stuck in the flesh? I also find it interesting that Adam "became a living soul" with the Breath of Life(God's Spirit) and was not already a living soul before that. I ain't perfect though, and still in the process of studying.
QuoteI hope that no one feels attacked by this post btw :)
I mean, you talk in such a kind manner, that I do not think anyone would feel you are attacking others...
Only people who disagree with your sentiments, and read your words out of context may think that. But, that may be stretching it a little.
QuoteI feel like it's really hard sometimes believing UR and also holding believes like salvation by faith alone, a final resurrection, etc. It would be good to know that I'm not the only one out there :dsunny:
If it makes you feel any better, I would be one of those people. Even if they do not share our convictions, just continue to love others! I know, it is a hard thing to do. But hey, remember Christ, "The Author and Finisher of our Faith." He empowers us to do these things, and is a light within ourselves that shines out darkness. And, remember this, that "God is Love" and "Love never fails." Love is God, so when we say Love never fails, God never fails. He will accomplish all things through love, and everything will be OK in the end. :dsunny:
Amen ML! :dsunny: :HeartThrob: :cloud9:
the Christ[seed] and resurrected body took on many forms.....the fleshly bodythe disciples could touch,complete with it's wounds.....
an unrecognized gardner..a stranger on the road etc..and as a being with eyes of fire and great glory.
if...the same spirit be in you..that was in Christ Jesus.......this same spiritual body/likeness/image is what we shall bear.
the newearth[man/Adam] the spirits of just men made perfect..forthe oldman/earth/Adam is passing away
I do not expectnorbelieve God has purposed to resurrect all men who ever lived tocome back
and dwell on this present earth..for eternity...become pretty crowded,eh? besides the natural heavens...dissolving..this universe
just can not contain all of God's stars/much less our little Milky Way.God, Eternity/immortality is much bigger than our little
planet earth,I believe.
sure it would be nice if all were in agreement now in everything....if allspoke one truth...no confusion..etc..but God confused the
tougnes at Babel for His purpose.Who knowsif perhaps our Father is cultivating patience long-suffering and love for those who differ
in understanding,cultures,nationality,etc.
Manyvirgins/churches are snoozing comfortbly[complacently satisfied with
their understanding/doctrines.]perhaps the sound'theBridegroom cometh!" will arouse them all...andthey willtake along extra vessels of
oil for light in their lamps.....much needed tojoin the weddingsupper/union/the true sayingsof God.....but Jesus showed many
would miss out on this side.
Howdid those virgins get those extra vessels of oil,anyway? they asked with a right heart motive...they made friends for themselves in
heaven. Now,Jesus also hasmany a 'friend"like Judas,too.that betray Him with a kiss for filthy lucre..the Balaam for hire class ;
that cursewhat Godhas blessed for silver/andgold!..they will say..God is with them..He beholds no iniquity in them.
they also be jezebels that teach sexual immorality and idolatry to cause His people to fall/Baal of Peor worship.
All kinds of traps and snares for the people of God to cause them to fail to enter on this side. Ask! seek,knock!
Quote from: eaglesway on January 31, 2018, 01:16:45 AM
I believe that our resurrection will be as Jesus' resurrection, in a body that is physical but spiritually glorified ....."Brethren, we know not yet what we shall be but when He appears we will be like Him for we shall see Him as He is."
Even as death is swallowed up by immortality the physical will be swallowed up by the spiritual, "Behold I am making all things new".
1 Cor 15
So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.
I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
John 20:27:42
Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe."
1 John 3:2
Beloved, we are God's children now, and what we will be has not yet appeared; but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he is.
I also agree that our resurrection will be like that of Jesus. When Jesus was resurrected and went to heaven he took the body that he was buried with, only it had been changed. I believe his body became a spiritual body. I have a hard time with this belief that some Churches have. They say,"we will go to heaven or hell when we die but at the resurrection we will come back and be rejoined with our physical bodies which will be changed to immortal". Just can't wrap my mind around that one. if we go to heaven when we die, why come back to be reunited with a mortal body that will be changed to immortal? Just doesn't make sense. When Jesus was resurrected he didn't leave a body behind. Anyone have an idea on this?
CHB
Quote from: sheila on February 01, 2018, 01:16:56 AM
the Christ[seed] and resurrected body took on many forms.....the fleshly bodythe disciples could touch,complete with it's wounds.....
an unrecognized gardner..a stranger on the road etc..and as a being with eyes of fire and great glory.
if...the same spirit be in you..that was in Christ Jesus.......this same spiritual body/likeness/image is what we shall bear.
Amen! Like EW and others have said too..
Quote from: CHB on February 02, 2018, 01:16:45 AM
I also agree that our resurrection will be like that of Jesus. When Jesus was resurrected and went to heaven he took the body that he was buried with, only it had been changed. I believe his body became a spiritual body. I have a hard time with this belief that some Churches have. They say,"we will go to heaven or hell when we die but at the resurrection we will come back and be rejoined with our physical bodies which will be changed to immortal". Just can't wrap my mind around that one. if we go to heaven when we die, why come back to be reunited with a mortal body that will be changed to immortal? Just doesn't make sense. When Jesus was resurrected he didn't leave a body behind. Anyone have an idea on this?
CHB
I read a commentary which said the 'souls' (greek- psych?) of the unsaved will be reunited with their bodies so they will suffer the greatest torment possible. :faint:
I always think of how Paul said "with what sort of body will they rise?" and not "will they inhabit". :dontknow:
My own view, and of course there are many views and scriptures which
seem to support both views.. but mine is that all who are dead are "asleep".. maybe 'ghosts' are dreaming sleeping dead? :dontknow: that may be a silly idea.. But in my mind I see graves as beds with headstones.. And all will awaken by hearing His voice.. those having done good to the resurrection of life, and those having done evil to the resurrection of judgment.
...."good" the greek includes inherently good, practicing - born again!
resurrection of "judgment" - greek - krisis: a decision, judgment ...accusation
I think the verse - those He chooses / designates, He calls (summons) and those He summons, He glorifies..
I think of the summoning of those not saved before their death, will occur on Judgment 'Day'..
But like the example of the tent of meeting and temple, is how the priest entered the first veil.. and burns incense before the second veil - Jesus takes us into the holy place behind the first veil.. and we offer prayer at the altar (of incense/"prayers of the saints").. Then glory of glories, as our high priest He takes us into the holy of holies where "God meets with us there" -- What I'm trying to say - the process requires summons - response (altar of incense, bullocks on His altar) which response, as we know includes repentance / some degree of weeping, and, or, gnashing of teeth.. the lake/pond/crucible of fire? (refiner's crucible - "our God is a consuming fire" also in degree?)
Anyway, that's my theory as to what I think the scriptures are saying.. Not that I think I said it very clearly
Quote from: sheila on February 01, 2018, 01:16:56 AM
sure it would be nice if all were in agreement now in everything....if allspoke one truth...no confusion..etc..but God confused the
tougnes at Babel for His purpose.Who knowsif perhaps our Father is cultivating patience long-suffering and love for those who differ
in understanding,cultures,nationality,etc.
Amen! I think you may be right about that! It seems to me He wants to have a family of many beautiful branches.. and not just one sort.. (glory!)
Quote from: sheila on February 01, 2018, 01:16:56 AM
I do not expectnorbelieve God has purposed to resurrect all men who ever lived tocome back
and dwell on this present earth..for eternity...become pretty crowded,eh? besides the natural heavens...dissolving..this universe
just can not contain all of God's stars/much less our little Milky Way.God, Eternity/immortality is much bigger than our little
planet earth,I believe.
Me too!
Quote from: sheila on February 01, 2018, 01:16:56 AM
Manyvirgins/churches are snoozing comfortbly[complacently satisfied with
their understanding/doctrines.]perhaps the sound'theBridegroom cometh!" will arouse them all...andthey willtake along extra vessels of
oil for light in their lamps.....much needed tojoin the weddingsupper/union/the true sayingsof God...
All kinds of traps and snares for the people of God to cause them to fail to enter on this side. Ask! seek,knock!
:thumbsup:
Quote from: CHB on February 02, 2018, 01:16:45 AM
I also agree that our resurrection will be like that of Jesus. When Jesus was resurrected and went to heaven he took the body that he was buried with, only it had been changed. I believe his body became a spiritual body. I have a hard time with this belief that some Churches have. They say,"we will go to heaven or hell when we die but at the resurrection we will come back and be rejoined with our physical bodies which will be changed to immortal". Just can't wrap my mind around that one. if we go to heaven when we die, why come back to be reunited with a mortal body that will be changed to immortal? Just doesn't make sense. When Jesus was resurrected he didn't leave a body behind. Anyone have an idea on this?
CHB
I think it's not that simple.
When Jesus was still/again among the disciples He had a human looking* body with flesh and bones. He said so. Thomas was even allowed to feel.
*=maybe it was, but that body could appear in houses with closed doors
1 Cor. 15:50-56
It's easy to say: See Jesus had a touchable body, the verses above speak about a body too. Not about a ghost like seen in movies. That's 100% true. What's also 100% true is that the Bible speaks about transformed bodies. Does that mean God just slaps on some anti-age creme? Or is it so vastly different that it only looks like a body?
There are verses about priests chancing garments depending where the serve. The Bible calls our body, body, temple, tent and garments.
Somewhere on the big vast internet is a good article about priest serving in wool and linen. Deut 22:11 forbids the two fabrics together in one garment.
They changed garments based on where they served.
My point is that it is possible to conclude from all info combined that theChrist that is right now sitting on His throne in heaven is of another substance than Thomas touched.
Linen vs wool clothing.
:2c:
Amen WW !! :dsunny: :HeartThrob: :iagree:
Joshua change of garments Zech 3 ;3 Clean Garments for Joshua the High Priest
...2The LORD said to Satan, "The LORD rebuke you, Satan! Indeed, the LORD who has chosen Jerusalem rebuke you! Is this not a brand plucked from the fire?" 3Now Joshua was clothed with filthy garments and standing before the angel. 4He spoke and said to those who were standing before him, saying, "Remove the filthy garments from him." Again he said to him, "See, I have taken your iniquity away from you and will clothe you with festal robes."...
as far as ghosts go , the Spirits nature is to rise up .where do they fly away to ?
Psalm 90:10 (NASB)
10 As for the days of our life, they contain seventy years,
Or if due to strength, eighty years,
Yet their pride is but labor and sorrow;
For soon it is gone and we fly away.
I tend not to believe wholly one way or another on the details.
My only thought is that if a bodily resurrection happens it isn't our exact human fleshly body because:
What about people who are blown up/horribly disfigured upon death?
What about people who live life with a physical disability or deformity?
What about those who are cremated?
What about decomposition after death?
So my thoughts are it must be different from our current body if that's what happens.
How did we get from
"I came that you might have life, and more abundantly"
to
"I can't wait to die, and 'go to heaven'?"
http://bbyrd009.blogspot.com/2017/12/recognize-fallacy-of-death-centric.html
I agree we should live each day rejoicing in His presence. However, Paul seemed to sure be looking forward to the resurrection. Talked about being ready to go, better to be with Him than here, etc.
I believe Jesus was talking about life, not just as "this brief-as-a-vapor time in this world as we know it". :Chinscratch: IMO, "life" in Him is now
and future, with
most of it in "eternity". :2c:
Quote from: GodIsLove on February 03, 2018, 03:24:28 AM
my thoughts are it must be different from our current body if that's what happens.
:thumbsup:
I agree with all of the above.. a body.. different substance.. and capabilities (imo) but a body nonetheless, not just a 'ghost' or a vapor.. and all will be one, all persons, and all with God (Yhvh) and Jesus.. but not as a big blob of intelligence.. but as bodies able to walk, run, jump, dance.. able to hug a lion.. but also able to instantaneously travel, or so it seems to me.. And existence in a earth made new paradise, garden and universe..
:gsmile:
well,how did you get from our discussing being raised up incorruptible/immortal...and what type of body it may be....as...Ican't wait
to die and go to heaven fallacy? :2c:
Going to heaven and going to hell are incursions of pagan myths that were used to manipulate men to labor and war and force women into subjection. These things are still used among primitive men today.
"If you dont preach Hell, you are going to Hell"
"Kill innocents for Allah and you will be welcomed into paradise"
"Obey the priests, preachers, mullahs or you will burn in hell forever"
Nirvana is represented as the sublime perfection of nothingness, a state where"being" without thought or physical activity..
Yet Paul said when he was caught up into the third heaven he did not kno whether he was in the body or out.
A good question is, "When Phillip was whisked from the baptism of the Ethiopian eunuch did he travel quickly through the air? or did he pass through the heavens, as in- another dimension?"
Is heaven up? Jesus said the kingdom of heaven is within.
I think that when John says we dont yet kno what we will be it is because it is just too glorious to receive in a mortal body.
"Flesh and blood shall not inherit the kingdom of God."
Bodies will be resurrected but they will not be like anything we can now conceive. Jesus walked through walls. Ascended and descended. Appeared and disappeared. Spoke as an ethereal voice to Paul.
Bodies will be resurrected but not until the spirit, the heart, the soul that must be resurrected first-from within.
The first Adam became a living soul...the second Adam(new creation) a life giving spirit.
I am not espousing any clear answer here ;o) Just saying that....
We know not yet what we shall be.... but man what a great mystery to contemplate. The desire to put these amazing truths in little boxes is something I dont get. I still love the fuzzy edges that leave me so much hope and expectancy for joy unspeakable and full of glory.
To be filled up to all the fulness of God, Exceedingly abundantly beyond anything we could ask or think- Glories beyond compare.
Quote from: bbyrd009 on February 03, 2018, 03:58:59 AM
How did we get from
"I came that you might have life, and more abundantly"
to
"I can't wait to die, and 'go to heaven'?"
Well, I can think of one. What if you are just so tired of living in the flesh, that you are prepared to finally experience God now? That you do not want just a small sliver of the experience, but to finally have that veil removed, where all is restored, and all is in God? That we may finally be able to see His face in all of His Glory? :2c:
Amen, EW ..... :cloud9:
Quote from: MusicLover123 on February 03, 2018, 05:04:28 AM
Quote from: bbyrd009 on February 03, 2018, 03:58:59 AM
How did we get from
"I came that you might have life, and more abundantly"
to
"I can't wait to die, and 'go to heaven'?"
Well, I can think of one. What if you are just so tired of living in the flesh, that you are prepared to finally experience God now? That you do not want just a small sliver of the experience, but to finally have that veil removed, where all is restored, and all is in God? That we may finally be able to see His face in all of His Glory? :2c:
...that someone could be living in a very war torn, dangerous and, or oppressive land.. or may be suffering a long held infirmity.. or unable to come to grips with life or past trauma and suffer depression.. :Chinscratch: They need our prayers for them to find their Lord, so they can have life more abundant.. :HeartThrob:
Quote from: MusicLover123 on February 03, 2018, 05:04:28 AM
Well, I can think of one. What if you are just so tired of living in the flesh, that you are prepared to finally experience God now? That you do not want just a small sliver of the experience, but to finally have that veil removed, where all is restored, and all is in God? That we may finally be able to see His face in all of His Glory? :2c:
Amen... It doesnt really matter if we define an experience we cannot conceive of- especially for the purpose of debate. It is that desire you speak of that caused Paul to say that he was torn, desiring to be in the presence of the Lord but knowing that his presence here was needful for the present.
We are on the Potters wheel. Trial and tribulation, like fire to the purifying of our faiths. Torn between the desire to see Him as He is and exult in the glory of God, but also knowing that we have a remnant of the body of Christ in us, filling up the cup of His suffering. Being shaped, being filled, being poured, despairing but not forsaken.
There is no shame in longing to be clothed with immortality.
I would think there would only be shame for making confident assertions about things that have not yet been made fully known.
Quote from: GodIsLove on February 03, 2018, 03:24:28 AM
I tend not to believe wholly one way or another on the details.
My only thought is that if a bodily resurrection happens it isn't our exact human fleshly body because:
What about people who are blown up/horribly disfigured upon death?
What about people who live life with a physical disability or deformity?
What about those who are cremated?
What about decomposition after death?
So my thoughts are it must be different from our current body if that's what happens.
Don't forget the main cause of death, age.
Don't ask me for proof, because I have non; but I believe everyone in heaven is 30 years old. The age of a priest...
Quote from: MusicLover123 on February 03, 2018, 05:04:28 AM
Quote from: bbyrd009 on February 03, 2018, 03:58:59 AM
How did we get from
"I came that you might have life, and more abundantly"
to
"I can't wait to die, and 'go to heaven'?"
Well, I can think of one. What if you are just so tired of living in the flesh, that you are prepared to finally experience God now? That you do not want just a small sliver of the experience, but to finally have that veil removed, where all is restored, and all is in God? That we may finally be able to see His face in all of His Glory? :2c:
ha to that i would say "exactly." We quote Paul as stating "absent from the body is present with the Lord," right, when Paul was not saying that at all, but rather "seek to please God right where you are at." Which begins "We have all
made up our minds, I say, and not only that, but we also
wish that we were already dead and partying with Jesus..." to paraphrase the passage in one possible interpretation.
So iow your perspective there is pretty common, i think, and we might even contemplate the lesson of Esau, despising his birthright, etc. If one is tired of living in the flesh then they should leave the world, imo. If one is truly "prepared" to experience God now, then they would be experiencing God now, in life, would they not? Even if you meant "prepared" differently there, "i wanna."
Quote from: marie glen on February 03, 2018, 05:14:49 AM
Quote from: MusicLover123 on February 03, 2018, 05:04:28 AM
Quote from: bbyrd009 on February 03, 2018, 03:58:59 AM
How did we get from
"I came that you might have life, and more abundantly"
to
"I can't wait to die, and 'go to heaven'?"
Well, I can think of one. What if you are just so tired of living in the flesh, that you are prepared to finally experience God now? That you do not want just a small sliver of the experience, but to finally have that veil removed, where all is restored, and all is in God? That we may finally be able to see His face in all of His Glory? :2c:
...that someone could be living in a very war torn, dangerous and, or oppressive land.. or may be suffering a long held infirmity.. or unable to come to grips with life or past trauma and suffer depression...
"i know that we have all not only made up our minds, i say, but also wish that we were already dead (absent from the body) and kicking it with Jesus (present with the Lord);
however..."
"That we may finally be able to see His face in all of His Glory?"
"
the dead know nothing."
Quote from: eaglesway on February 03, 2018, 05:23:19 AMThere is no shame in longing to be clothed with immortality.
"
take no thought for the morrow..."
even if i agree with you, there is no shame in that. The shame might come in looking for that in tomorrow, saving up manna for tomorrow, perceiving some "heaven" as a place that one may attain only after they have physically died, etc
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 03, 2018, 03:27:14 PM
Quote from: GodIsLove on February 03, 2018, 03:24:28 AM
I tend not to believe wholly one way or another on the details.
My only thought is that if a bodily resurrection happens it isn't our exact human fleshly body because:
What about people who are blown up/horribly disfigured upon death?
What about people who live life with a physical disability or deformity?
What about those who are cremated?
What about decomposition after death?
So my thoughts are it must be different from our current body if that's what happens.
Don't forget the main cause of death, age.
Don't ask me for proof, because I have non; but I believe everyone in heaven is 30 years old. The age of a priest...
the kingdom of heaven is within you
no one is greater than his Master. Luke12;50But I have a baptism to undergo and how distressed I am until it is completed.....
but for the JOY that was placed before him He endured.Our conversation here..dwelt on the hope of the resurrection...and
in faith we ponder these things.as far as I know any authority you may possess is to feed..not beat or strike.
God's presence is here..and in us...whatever ye do unto one of these least that believe in me,ye as the same have done unto me
you may want to change your approach,just sayin. bread at the proper time? :2c:
Jesus also said..when you see these things occur..lookup,your deliverance draws nigh.Jesus was recieved UP.
naval gazing[the kingdom of heaven in me and there is no other]can make you miss out on the great crowd of wittness"s that
surround you.Hebrews 12;1-4
Therefore,since we are surrounded by such a great crowdof wittnesses,let us throw off everything that hinders,and the sin
that so easily entangles,and let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us. Let us fix our eyes on Jesus,the author
and perfector of our faith,who for the joy set before Him endured the cross,scorning it's SHAME,and sat down at the right hand
of the throne of God.
I read "take no thought as to what we eat and drink,wear etc.".as being overly concerned for the things in this temporal life
some people's heart/treasures are on the earth,some in heaven...
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 03, 2018, 03:27:14 PM
Don't forget the main cause of death, age.
Don't ask me for proof, because I have non; but I believe everyone in heaven is 30 years old. The age of a priest...
:thumbsup: For some reason my thought is always all in the kingdom will be 33, idk why.. other than for some reason I like double numbers.. :doh:
Quote from: bbyrd009 on February 03, 2018, 05:50:11 PM
"i know that we have all not only made up our minds, i say, but also wish that we were already dead (absent from the body) and kicking it with Jesus (present with the Lord); however..."
"That we may finally be able to see His face in all of His Glory?"
-------------
If one is truly "prepared" to experience God now, then they would be experiencing God now, in life, would they not?
"the dead know nothing."
:thumbsup: "the truth sets free!" no reason to not be kicking it up with Jesus now.. :gsmile:
Quote from: bbyrd009 on February 03, 2018, 05:55:49 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 03, 2018, 03:27:14 PM
Quote from: GodIsLove on February 03, 2018, 03:24:28 AM
I tend not to believe wholly one way or another on the details.
My only thought is that if a bodily resurrection happens it isn't our exact human fleshly body because:
What about people who are blown up/horribly disfigured upon death?
What about people who live life with a physical disability or deformity?
What about those who are cremated?
What about decomposition after death?
So my thoughts are it must be different from our current body if that's what happens.
Don't forget the main cause of death, age.
Don't ask me for proof, because I have non; but I believe everyone in heaven is 30 years old. The age of a priest...
the kingdom of heaven is within you
...And praise the Lord, one day it will also be fully without! :dsunny: :banana: "..the lion will eat straw like the ox, the bear will graze with the cow" Is. 11:7 .... :cloud9:
Quote from: bbyrd009 on February 03, 2018, 05:55:49 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 03, 2018, 03:27:14 PM
Quote from: GodIsLove on February 03, 2018, 03:24:28 AM
I tend not to believe wholly one way or another on the details.
My only thought is that if a bodily resurrection happens it isn't our exact human fleshly body because:
What about people who are blown up/horribly disfigured upon death?
What about people who live life with a physical disability or deformity?
What about those who are cremated?
What about decomposition after death?
So my thoughts are it must be different from our current body if that's what happens.
Don't forget the main cause of death, age.
Don't ask me for proof, because I have non; but I believe everyone in heaven is 30 years old. The age of a priest...
the kingdom of heaven is within you
It is :thumbsup:
I was taking Paul to mean he was serving God
by serving everyone still ,but would rather be in the Spirit 100%
I am beginning to see the Token of the Holy Spirit as being in and out of it at different times in our lives ,
not always walking in the Sprint 100% or maybe the inner man of the heart is getting stronger and the outer man of our carnal nature is actually dying off ,loosing power over the body.
I can come read here in my natural carnal mind and it sounds nuts
But when reading some times the Spirit quickens something and experience a '' well being ''or ''being well ''.
There is two minds , one is of Christ /Truth , the other is of the world /error and they battle over your body to posses it
Cains warning by God to rule over it and not let it rule over him . GEN 4;6 Seems Cain was always angry .
There are some scriptures about the inner man of the heart and outer man (Rom. 7:22; 2 Cor. 4:16) and that struggle .
Most folks never give it a second thought though , they can go though this life and not ever consider God what so ever .
Because their gods are in their desires and they are many .
So being an enemy of Jesus on that cross and Him saying,Forgive them Father ,they do not know what they are doing ..
He always knew what was in their hearts , but they had no clue .
Jer 17
9"The heart is more deceitful than all else And is desperately sick;
Who can understand it? 10"I, the LORD, search the heart, I test the mind, Even to give to each man according to his ways, According to the results of his deeds....
Quote from: marie glen on February 03, 2018, 10:42:05 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 03, 2018, 03:27:14 PM
Don't forget the main cause of death, age.
Don't ask me for proof, because I have non; but I believe everyone in heaven is 30 years old. The age of a priest...
:thumbsup: For some reason my thought is always all in the kingdom will be 33, idk why.. other than for some reason I like double numbers.. :doh:
:) My wife's mother (a saint) passed away from cancer several years ago. They were very close. She had a dream where her mother came to her and she was young. I thought I remembered what she'd told me, but before saying anything to her about this tonight, I asked her how old her mother was in the dream she had. She said "30". :Peace2:
See people. I'm not always talking nonsense 30
Marieglen is an exception in heaven, she will be 3030 years old. The only one in a wheelchair :laugh:
Quote from: marie glen on February 03, 2018, 10:48:40 PM
Quote from: bbyrd009 on February 03, 2018, 05:50:11 PM
"i know that we have all not only made up our minds, i say, but also wish that we were already dead (absent from the body) and kicking it with Jesus (present with the Lord); however..."
"That we may finally be able to see His face in all of His Glory?"
-------------
If one is truly "prepared" to experience God now, then they would be experiencing God now, in life, would they not?
"the dead know nothing."
:thumbsup: "the truth sets free!" no reason to not be kicking it up with Jesus now.. :gsmile:
word
Quote from: jabcat on February 04, 2018, 04:59:13 AM
Quote from: marie glen on February 03, 2018, 10:42:05 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 03, 2018, 03:27:14 PM
Don't forget the main cause of death, age.
Don't ask me for proof, because I have non; but I believe everyone in heaven is 30 years old. The age of a priest...
:thumbsup: For some reason my thought is always all in the kingdom will be 33, idk why.. other than for some reason I like double numbers.. :doh:
:) My wife's mother (a saint) passed away from cancer several years ago. They were very close. She had a dream where her mother came to her and she was young. I thought I remembered what she'd told me, but before saying anything to her about this tonight, I asked her how old her mother was in the dream she had. She said "30". :Peace2:
:thumbsup: :cloud9:
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 04, 2018, 10:04:07 AM
See people. I'm not always talking nonsense 30
Marieglen is an exception in heaven, she will be 3030 years old. The only one in a wheelchair :laugh:
Wha's at you say sonny? :laugh2:
Quote from: rosered on February 04, 2018, 01:17:30 AM
Quote from: bbyrd009 on February 03, 2018, 05:55:49 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 03, 2018, 03:27:14 PM
Quote from: GodIsLove on February 03, 2018, 03:24:28 AM
I tend not to believe wholly one way or another on the details.
My only thought is that if a bodily resurrection happens it isn't our exact human fleshly body because:
What about people who are blown up/horribly disfigured upon death?
What about people who live life with a physical disability or deformity?
What about those who are cremated?
What about decomposition after death?
So my thoughts are it must be different from our current body if that's what happens.
Don't forget the main cause of death, age.
Don't ask me for proof, because I have non; but I believe everyone in heaven is 30 years old. The age of a priest...
the kingdom of heaven is within you
It is :thumbsup:
I was taking Paul to mean he was serving God by serving everyone still ,but would rather be in the Spirit 100%
I am beginning to see the Token of the Holy Spirit as being in and out of it at different times in our lives ,
not always walking in the Sprint 100% or maybe the inner man of the heart is getting stronger and the outer man of our carnal nature is actually dying off ,loosing power over the body.
I can come read here in my natural carnal mind and it sounds nuts
But when reading some times the Spirit quickens something and experience a " well being "or "being well ".
There is two minds , one is of Christ /Truth , the other is of the world /error and they battle over your body to posses it
Cains warning by God to rule over it and not let it rule over him . GEN 4;6 Seems Cain was always angry .
There are some scriptures about the inner man of the heart and outer man (Rom. 7:22; 2 Cor. 4:16) and that struggle .
Most folks never give it a second thought though , they can go though this life and not ever consider God what so ever .
Because their gods are in their desires and they are many .
So being an enemy of Jesus on that cross and Him saying,Forgive them Father ,they do not know what they are doing ..
He always knew what was in their hearts , but they had no clue .
Jer 17
9"The heart is more deceitful than all else And is desperately sick; Who can understand it?
10"I, the LORD, search the heart, I test the mind, Even to give to each man according to his ways, According to the results of his deeds....
Rose I love that you sometimes talk about how the spiritual nature is in us and other times it's the carnal nature. I feel like that too, but no one talks about it that way so I feel alone sometimes because of the duality. It's like my connection is sometimes staticky! Or I'm distracted by the cares of the world. It's a subtle thing.
Quote from GodIsLove
QuoteRose I love that you sometimes talk about how the spiritual nature is in us and other times it's the carnal nature. I feel like that too, but no one talks about it that way so I feel alone sometimes because of the duality. It's like my connection is sometimes staticky! Or I'm distracted by the cares of the world. It's a subtle thing.
Amen sis ,
Me too ! If it wasn't for the times of being recharged ,a lot like a battery does to an engine , the negative and positive charges , and making us move , I would no doubt feel dead to God :sigh:
But God has a way of making it happen more and more , than when I first believed many moons ago .He knows just what we need sis and increase our faith and strength , what ever else we need in that moment .
Waking up to these refreshing thoughts , mostly in the early mornings and thank Him for this new day and start and for His help to do what is pleasing in His sight .
I love it that you responded like you did , Thanks for that , sometimes you wonder if you really are alone :friendstu:
love and hugs sis :HeartThrob:
Quote from: rosered on February 05, 2018, 03:02:19 AM
Quote from GodIsLove
QuoteRose I love that you sometimes talk about how the spiritual nature is in us and other times it's the carnal nature. I feel like that too, but no one talks about it that way so I feel alone sometimes because of the duality. It's like my connection is sometimes staticky! Or I'm distracted by the cares of the world. It's a subtle thing.
Amen sis ,
Me too ! If it wasn't for the times of being recharged ,a lot like a battery does to an engine , the negative and positive charges , and making us move , I would no doubt feel dead to God :sigh:
But God has a way of making it happen more and more , than when I first believed many moons ago .He knows just what we need sis and increase our faith and strength , what ever else we need in that moment .
Waking up to these refreshing thoughts , mostly in the early mornings and thank Him for this new day and start and for His help to do what is pleasing in His sight .
I love it that you responded like you did , Thanks for that , sometimes you wonder if you really are alone :friendstu:
love and hugs sis :HeartThrob:
:friendstu: :HeartThrob:
from my personal point of view I hear Paul saying the followi
Paul did struggle with the flesh just as all of us do , not always in the spirit not always in the flesh, sometimes he could not tell weather in the body or out of the body, when he sinned it was no longer
paul that sinned it is sin that dwells in the flesh.
He would rather be absent from the body and present
with the Lord.
blessings, fire walker
Blessings , fire walker
Quote from: fire walker on March 10, 2018, 02:24:50 AM
from my personal point of view I hear Paul saying the followi
Paul did struggle with the flesh just as all of us do , not always in the spirit not always in the flesh, sometimes he could not tell weather in the body or out of the body, when he sinned it was no longer
paul that sinned it is sin that dwells in the flesh.
He would rather be absent from the body and present
with the Lord.
blessings, fire walker
Blessings , fire walker
Amen Fire walker :thumbsup:
I am thankful for those scriptures ,that help us not feel so alone and thank you for the reminder brother :friendstu:
Quote from: fire walker on March 10, 2018, 02:24:50 AMHe would rather be absent from the body and present
with the Lord.
seems right, huh, until you go read it, and it does not say that at all
note the variance in several translations,
http://biblehub.com/2_corinthians/5-8.htm
which are all scribed i guess, but at least you might note that it is "we" who are "confident," not "I" as in "I, Paul, am confident."
iow Paul is using "we" here to mean "you," but in such a way so as to not be offensive to a reader
and then read from the Lex,
http://biblehub.com/lexicon/2_corinthians/5-8.htm
wherein the "new" Strong's has written out "made up one's mind" for "good courage," but i can still track it down if you like
http://biblehub.com/lexicon/2_corinthians/5-8.htm
"we have not only made up our minds, i tell you, but also wish that we were already dead and partying with Jesus."
http://biblehub.com/lexicon/2_corinthians/5-9.htm
"However, what we should be doing is seeking to please God where we are, right now."
Comparing the scripture of Paul's body of death ,[Romans 7 ] he was still suffering for the cause of Christ ,
and desire to help those whom were still in the same prison of the old mindset of their thinking .
Preaching the cross of Jesus Christ bringing in the new covenant agreement and its good news of the gospel .
He would have much rather be free from the mortal bondage and all the sin nature around him and maybe still in him , who can say otherwise ? and 100% in the Spirit , to me :2c:
He was careful not to stumble those whom had no faith and was willing to share with those whose knowledge was limited about the Lord .
I tell you, I will not drink from this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom."
Matthew 17:29
I don't know if I believe in a physical resurrection or not, but I certainly would not want to be resurrected in this body I am in now, with its sin.
The scriptures are pretty clear about physical resurrection, with Jesus going out of His way to show Thomas the physical aspect of His resurrection, as well as eating fish with the disciples after His resurrection. Paul describes the nature of the resurrection as being more than physical in 1 Cor 15, but the fact that it is more than physical(glorified spiritual bodies) does not mean it does not have a physical aspect, albeit one in which "what was" has been swallowed up by what it has become. Therefore we can be confident that there is no sin in the resurrection because that which is raised is raised immortal. Where there is sin there is death. Where there is immortality there is no death, because the wages of sin is death. John says, "Brothers and sisters, we know not what we shall be, but when He appears we will be like Him for we will see Him as He is."