our true nature

[Loveroftruth]

I can tell you what he looks like to me.  He tells the truth.  No matter what the consequences are to him, he stands up and tells the truth.

Any idea how rare that is?  But, I see him now everywhere, telling the truth.

But, before you can tell the truth, and before you can recognize the truth, you first have to know it yourself.

Sister,

You have no idea how that spoke to me :HeartThrob:

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9:  :thumbsup: Amen, Molly!

[amanda]

There are some really great posts here, I dont know what the thread-starter-protocol is, so I'll just jump back in.
Our true nature is freedom, freedom from ourselves, it is expressed with no self thought, it is pure and true because its not filtered through our own "oppinion", everyone can experience it, it is our first "feeling" (for lack of a better word) before we name it, judge it and corrupt it according to our own beliefs.  Our true nature just flows naturally there is no self-control, this is not the same as being out of control, we are simply free from controling ourselves. 
amanda

[firstborn888]

There are some really great posts here, I dont know what the thread-starter-protocol is, so I'll just jump back in.
Our true nature is freedom, freedom from ourselves, it is expressed with no self thought, it is pure and true because its not filtered through our own "oppinion", everyone can experience it, it is our first "feeling" (for lack of a better word) before we name it, judge it and corrupt it according to our own beliefs.  Our true nature just flows naturally there is no self-control, this is not the same as being out of control, we are simply free from controling ourselves. 
amanda

I think what you just said is the part of the 'becoming like children' that Jesus was referring to.
  blessings,
   byron

P.S. welcome back to your thread!

[amanda]

Thanks byron, I'll check out the becoming like children that Jesus spoke about and see if it resonates.
amanda

[Loveroftruth]

There are some really great posts here, I dont know what the thread-starter-protocol is, so I'll just jump back in.
Our true nature is freedom, freedom from ourselves, it is expressed with no self thought, it is pure and true because its not filtered through our own "oppinion", everyone can experience it, it is our first "feeling" (for lack of a better word) before we name it, judge it and corrupt it according to our own beliefs.  Our true nature just flows naturally there is no self-control, this is not the same as being out of control, we are simply free from controling ourselves. 
amanda

YES YES YES! I SO SEE IT!  :flowerred:

[Redlettervoice]

Our true nature is freedom, freedom from ourselves, it is expressed with no self thought, it is pure and true because its not filtered through our own "opinion", everyone can experience it, it is our first "feeling" (for lack of a better word) before we name it, judge it and corrupt it according to our own beliefs.  Our true nature just flows naturally there is no self-control, this is not the same as being out of control, we are simply free from controling ourselves. 
amanda

GREAT understanding!~ Whom the SON sets FREE, is FREE indeed.  I think we "experience" that
here a little, there a little, most of the time people will try and "cut it off" ......you don't seem
to be able to "express" it  except IN THE SPIRIT!  There "is" a PLACE where NO MAN can
hinder!! tho!  Not even ourselves.  Good that you said "that" .......When GOD gives Peace, it is
written, who is there that can disturb?

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Amen Amanda!

[pneuma]

Hi All, just finished having this discussion on another board, so not really up to debating it, but here are my thoughts. feel free to take what you can and leave the rest.
God bless.


Adam was created in sin , but was ignorant of this fact.

Eze 28:15 Thou [wast] perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till'' iniquity'''[guilt] was found in thee.

This iniquity was always in Adam, but he did not know it.

Once Adam ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil ( the law )his iniquity was found out.

Genesis 1:26-27
26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. 27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

I know at first glance these two scriptures seem to indicate that Adam was created in the image and likeness of God.

But 1Co.15:35-51 shows us that this is not so.
There is a difference between what is said of Adam and what is said of Jesus Christ.
If Adam was in the image and likeness of God then Jesus Christ was not.
And if Jesus Christ was the image and likeness of God ( and He is ) then Adam cannot be said to be in Gods image and likeness also , for the scriptures make it very plain that there is a difference between the first man Adam and Jesus Christ.

Lets explore this a little further.

1 Corinthians 15:35-36
35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? 36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:

In order for man to be quickened he must die first. This is the order of arrangement of God Himself. Even or Lord and saviour had to die before He took on His glorified body.
What is true of Him is also true of every man and this includes Adam. Until Adam died he could not be quickened unto life. That is to say until our old man dies , we cannot put on our heavenly glorified body.

1 Corinthians 15:37-38
37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain: 38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

Now here we see a change made in the grain that is sown. The grain is not the body which shall come forth , but is bare grain. Once the grain is planted in the earth ( dies) it springs up into life. Now some may grow up to be wheat or some other grain, for the bare grain is not the plant that shall be.
Adam ,like everyone else is bare grain at first. He had to die to be quickened unto life. For only in resurrection can one put on the incorruptible body.
This bare grain is the natural body ( old man ) that must die.

The scriptures then go on to show us that there is a difference in the bodies. For God gives it the body that pleases Him.

1 Corinthians 15:39-41
39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds. 40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. 41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.

1 Corinthians 15:42-44
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

Now this natural body which Adam had and we also have is sown in corruption. For without resurrection our bodies are corrupt. In the resurrection our bodies are raised in incorruption. The natural body that Adam had and we also have is sown in dishonour , but raised in glory. Sown in weakness ,raised in power. Sown a natural body , raised a spiritual body. All these scriptures tell us that the natural body must come first ,then die to be raised a spiritual body. Only in resurrection is there a glorified body, therefore Adam had to die in order to put on a glorified body.

1 Corinthians 15:45-46
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. 46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

Now the first man Adam was MADE a living soul, the following scripture says that the living soul is natural, or a natural body as the preceding scripture states. And this is how Adam was fashioned. This is all in contrast to Jesus Christ which was made a life giving spirit.
Living soul is also translated living creature. Soul and creature both come from the same Hebrew word nephesh.

1 Corinthians 15:47-49
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. 48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

The scriptures go on to say the first man (Adam) is of the earth, earthy and as we have borne the image of the earthy ,which image Adam had, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. Now is the image that Adam bore that of a natural earthy body the image of God? No , this natural earthy body must die first in order to be resurrected, for only in resurrection are we given a heavenly body.

Now in conclusion Paul says

1 Corinthians 15:50-51
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

That is to say the life of the flesh ( that Adam and we have) cannot inherit the kingdom of God.
This life of the flesh must die first for corruption cannot inherit incorruption.
We must all be changed.
The bare grain (Adam) that was first planted, is not the body that shall be.
That which thou sowest is not quickened EXCEPT IT DIE.

Adam could not have had this incorruptible body , or he would not have been able to die.
That which is born of God CANNOT sin.

Colossians 1:18
18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

Jesus Christ is the firstborn from the dead , that in ALL things He might have the preeminence.
Jesus Christ must be first in ALL THINGS, so He must be the first made in the image of God.





Continued.........

[pneuma]

Now lets look at this bare ( naked ) grain in Gen.

Genesis 2:25
25 And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.

This was before the law came into effect. They were both NAKED ,and were not ashamed.
Now think on this, before the law came into effect we were not aware that we were sinners, but once you have partaken from the tree of knowledge of good and evil ( the law ) your sins become known unto you.
This is exactly what this verse is speaking about.

Paul explains it like this.
Romans 7:7
7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

The next few verses will make this more plain.

Genesis 3:7
7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.

The law revealed their sins unto them.

Genesis 3:10-11
10 And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.
11 And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?

Adam was afraid because he was a sinner (naked) ,so he hid himself from God.
But what's God say ,Who told thee that thou wast a sinner ( naked )? Hast thou eaten from the tree (law ) whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?
As if to say you would not have known you were a sinner unless you ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil ( the law ).

Now I know you are probably thinking naked does not mean sin, so lets look at the word naked.

Naked comes from the Hebrew word arowm which means naked , bare.
Now arowm has an original sense (root word )aram meaning: subtility, crafty, prudent, beware, very.
1) to be subtle, be shrewd, be crafty, beware, take crafty counsel, be prudent
1a) (Qal) to be crafty, be subtle
1b) (Hiphil) to be crafty, be or become shrewd
Enhanced Strong's Lexicon

Now who else in Gen. is subtil?

Genesis 3:1
Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

The word subtil come from the exact same root word aram that naked comes from.

Why would Adam and the serpent in the garden have exactly the same nature?

Because the serpent in the garden is unregenerated man ( man without Christ in His life ) a gentile by nature.

So lets look more closely at the serpent.

GEN.3:1-7 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden.
Who is this serpent that is so subtil ( crafty , sly , shrewd ) and has the gift of speech?
Unregenerated man ( man without Christ in his life, gentile man ). Who else but man has the gift of speech , and can reason. You may say a parrot can talk but can it reason? Balaams (mod edit: donkey or rear end) spoke but it was God that opened her mouth NU.22:28 And the LORD opened the mouth of the (mod edit: donkey or rear end), and she said unto Balaam.
Nowhere is it said that God opened the mouth of the serpent. This serpent has the gift of speech and can still talk and reason today.
Now some have said that the serpent lost its gift of speech as part of its punishment , but nowhere in the bible does it say this. Therefore we must conclude that the serpent can still talk today.
Who else is this then but Unregenerated ( gentile )man.

GEN.3:14-16 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life. And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

God puts enmity between the serpent and the woman , between the serpents seed and her seed. This is natural man ( Unregenerated man or gentile man ) ) and the spiritual man.

RO.8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Now this serpent some would have us believe has no hope but of eternal punishment , but this is the carnal man ( gentile man ) and can we say that he has no hope?

EP.2:11-22 speaks of the hope of all men Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.14For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; 15Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; 16And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: 17And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.18For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. 19Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;21In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 22In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

There is another passage in the bible that shows that the serpent is man , it is found in NU.21:8-9 And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live. 9And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived.

This serpent of brass is a prophesy of Jesus Christ on the cross

JN.3:14-15 14And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

Now why would Christ be shown as a serpent?

We find the answer in RO.8:3 3For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Jesus bore the likeness of sinful flesh , the likeness of the serpent

, 21For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. 2CO.5:21.

This is the original state all mankind was created in.




Genesis 2:15-17
15 And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.
16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: 17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.


What is this tree of knowledge of good and evil and how is it used in the process of making man into God image and likeness and what death is being spoken of here?

The law is the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

Two trees in the garden both a figure of the true.

Tree of life a figure of Jesus Christ our tree of life.

Tree of knowledge of good and evil a figure of the law.

There is no actual tree that gives life nor is there a actual tree that gives us knowledge.

The law or tree of knowledge was the commandment THOU SHALT NOT.

What is this tree that can bring death to man? Now we know that death comes because of sin RO.5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin. Therefore we can see that it is sin that brings death to man , but what brings us the knowledge of what sin is? The law. RO.3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. Therefore the tree of knowledge of good and evil is the law for by eating of the tree death entered into the world. Now is the knowledge of good and evil ( the law ) sin RO.7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

So we can see that the tree of knowledge of good and evil is the law, for it is only by way of the law that we have the knowledge of sin.

So what death is being spoken of here and how is it ( death ) used in making us into the image of God?

Man was already dying a natural death ( dying thou shalt die )
Now I know some will argue this interpretation of the scriptures , but Adam had a corruptible body , sown in corruption , raised in incorruption. That which is sown in corruption must die.
It is only in resurrection that one obtains the image and likeness of God , and lives forever.

So if it is not a natural death spoken of here what death is it talking about.
The death spoken of here is the death of our old man by the bringing in of the law.

This scripture is placing a death sentence upon Adam from the time he ate of the tree until he died.
Now if the tree of knowledge of good and evil is the law as I put forth above, the law must then carry with it a sentence of death. Let's look and see if it does. 2 Corinthians 3:6-7
6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life. 7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
You can see that the law was indeed a sentence of death to man.

But it was a sentence of death to our old man.

Now this law or death sentence had to come into effect , because the law is a ministration of death ( to our old man )and our schoolmaster that leads us to Christ.

Without the law Adam never would have come into the knowledge that he was a sinner.

I know some will argue that sin never entered into the world until after Adam ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. But that is just supposition and not what the scriptures state.

Romans 5:13
13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

This is not stating that there was no sin in the world , its stating that the sin was not imputed until the law came into effect.

And the law came into effect the moment Adam broke the commandment THOU SHALT NOT.

This tree of knowledge was a commandment unto life in God , but also a commandment of death to the old man.
It is this death that is spoken of in Gen.
For the law is a ministration of death unto us (our old man) and our schoolmaster that leads us to Christ.

This is why God placed two trees in the garden ( remember this is Gods garden, the Holy of holies) the schoolmaster to show us our sin ( tree of knowledge ) and the tree of life.


For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

This was why man was put out of the garden so he did not try to be perfect by way of the law.
For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.

From the time of Jesus' death the veil of the temple was rent in twain from top to bottom, the way into the Holy of Holies was again opened for mankind to come boldly before the throne of God. From the time Jesus died on the cross forward, man has had access to direct communion with God.
This is life, is life more abundant.
The veil that was rent in twain was the flesh. (old man) or (mans nature.)
Once the flesh ( old man ) dies or even begins to die ( I die daily) we have access back to direct communion with God.

Brother/sisters we stand right now in the same place Adam stood 6000 years ago and placed before us is the law and the tree of life.
We are living right now in the 6th day of creation Adam is us ( if you can receive it ) Jesus is called the second man, ever wonder why? It's because we are the first man.

When God originally created man He created him outside of the garden and placed him into the garden to make man into His image and likeness.

This is a process that man is still undergoing.

That bare naked grain the Adam was and we are must die in order to be made into the image and likeness of God.

Adam was created in a state of grace were sin was not imputed unto him.

Romans 5:13
13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

Once Adam ate from the tree of knowledge ( the law ) the law came into play and sin was then imputed unto him.

The garden experience is not what mankind believes it to be, it is not about the fall of mankind , it is about how mankind is made into the image and likeness of God.

God bless

[Jotham]

...Could it be that preterist thinking is correct, and the generation of those "in Adam" saw I Corinth 15 come true, and that from then on, the finished work of the cross really has changed all, that all are born "in Christ".

I'm a long time (since mid 90's) believer in the fulfilled view of prophecy in which the Preterist camp resides. For the most part i view the above statement is held by many there.

I also lean toward what was stated by Laren in another note: are we "becoming aware/awaking up" to who we already are (glorious).

And with SeekerSA's ; "So our Adamic nature is learned from our culture bias."

Hey jchpiper, since you are adding books to your list here are two you might enjoy:
"Happiness Now" by Robert Holden Ph.D. and "Biology of Belief" by Bruce H. Lipton. These go along with much of what you've "rambled" on. : )

Blessings,
Thom

[jchpiper]

Hey jchpiper, since you are adding books to your list here are two you might enjoy:
"Happiness Now" by Robert Holden Ph.D. and "Biology of Belief" by Bruce H. Lipton. These go along with much of what you've "rambled" on. : )

Blessings,
Thom

Thanks Thom...."Biology of Belief" is already on my list.   :winkgrin:

Here is a site folks might be interested in:
http://www.heartmath.org/research/science-of-the-heart/soh_20.html

I first read of Heartmath's research in an educational article and then in a health research article.  I later "spontaneously" ran across one of their books and got hooked, so to speak. Many thoughts I have on this subject...  :HeartThrob:

I don't want to appear to be exalting scientific research over God, but to me it magnifies God.  I thrill at learning how cells communicate, how we communicate, how life communicates, how God has designed us so intricately and complex yet with simplicity....quite an amazing paradox.  I get teary-eyed just typing about it.   :mblush:

I'm enjoying reading all these responses....chewy stuff.

Thanks Amanda for the topic!

[Loveroftruth]

pneuma
Good stuff :thumbsup:

[firstborn888]

    I'll have to say that I don't get the 'learning of the Adamic nature' thing at all. For me, being a carnally minded idiot was (from the beginning) just as natural as breathing.
   The 100 percent 'failure rate' of humans must say something about predisposition, right? There is an innocence about newborns, but I still maintain that we are all born with our souls firmly caught in the snare.
- b

[Hennessey]

Ditto Byron, and to prove it my Dad often recounted to me how I was born standing up and talking back.   :laughing7:





.

[firstborn888]

Ditto Byron, and to prove it my Dad often recounted to me how I was born standing up and talking back.   :laughing7:

That's all the proof anyone should need. Do you hear this folks? Jack was born in sin and conceived in iniquity. Does anyone here think they are better than Jack?

I rest my case :winkgrin:

- b

[Loveroftruth]

Ditto Byron, and to prove it my Dad often recounted to me how I was born standing up and talking back.   :laughing7:

That's all the proof anyone should need. Do you hear this folks? Jack was born in sin and conceived in iniquity. Does anyone here think they are better than Jack?

I rest my case :winkgrin:

- b

:mrflo: :mrflo: :mrflo: :mrflo:

[Cardinal]

 :happygrin: :grin: :Sparkletooth:

[Taffy]

That's all the proof anyone should need. Do you hear this folks? Jack was born in sin and conceived in iniquity. Does anyone here think they are better than Jack?

I rest my case

Sounds Good to me Byron :icon_flower:

Blessings
Taffy

[Hennessey]

Son of a motherless goat!

I didn't know I was going to be your poster boy for "born in iniquity"  :first:

[Taffy]

Son of a motherless goat!

I didn't know I was going to be your poster boy for "born in iniquity"  :first:

(http://soleilimg1.free.fr/gifs/personnages/divers/diver066.gif)

[pneuma]

pneuma
Good stuff :thumbsup:

Thanks sis

[pneuma]

    I'll have to say that I don't get the 'learning of the Adamic nature' thing at all. For me, being a carnally minded idiot was (from the beginning) just as natural as breathing.
   The 100 percent 'failure rate' of humans must say something about predisposition, right? There is an innocence about newborns, but I still maintain that we are all born with our souls firmly caught in the snare.
- b

:thumbsup:

[pneuma]

Ditto Byron, and to prove it my Dad often recounted to me how I was born standing up and talking back.   :laughing7:





.

:laughing7: Hi Jack I see you have not lost your sense of humor.

[Jotham]

...I don't want to appear to be exalting scientific research over God, but to me it magnifies God.  I thrill at learning how cells communicate, how we communicate, how life communicates, how God has designed us so intricately and complex yet with simplicity....quite an amazing paradox...

I'm with you on this. My view is that science can be very pro-Creator. I can't open up a book on the human body, health, astronomy, physics, anthropology, etc (and i'm usually reading a half dozen books on various topics concurrently), and not see God's beauty in it.

Happy reading,
Thom