Some people say that we are born with a sinful nature and that we are, well, basically wicked.
I say our natural state is, dare I say it - divine.
From the time we are born we are conditioned and "taught' how to get along in this world.
We develope the ego as a way to keep ourselves safe from the pain of having to be different to what we feel. The ego is always trying to be something - kind, loving, strong or whatever, like if we dont believe ourselves to be kind we "try" to be kind.
The ego doesnt know who we truly are, our true self arises from within, from that place in us that is divine, our true self doesnt try to do or be anything it just is. The conditioning from this world is what we need to let go of so that our true selves can be released.
amanda
Hey Amanda :girlheart:
I have seen a bit like this -- that our whole lives, layer by layer lies are added to who we are... from babies to adults, the world tells us who we are, teachers, parents, friends, boyfriends, etc.... then we meet God and He says "Let me show you who you really are" and there starts the process of layer by layer the crud coming off and we slowly start to see who we truly are and we become FREE :HeartThrob:
Yes thats it Loveroftruth, thankyou.
amanda
I do think that humans are born with nice healthy 'egos' without being taught anything. But yes, when all the layers of the earthy Adam are removed, the heavenly is there....
blessings,
byron
Modification: Have since changed my opinion. :mblush:
If we believe our core nature is sinful we will try to manufacture our own goodness. God created us in His image, but we created our own image of ourselves, our self-image.
amanda
A ramble here....
I've thought of this recently in light of cellular memory....part of that being that our cells store memories that are transferred genetically. (There is some controversy regarding the particulars of cellular memory, and some intriguing accounts regarding organ transplant patients. I hope that doesn't offend anyone.)
Leviticus 17:11 states the soul of the flesh is in the blood. Is not our soul transcribed (so to speak) on these cells? These cells circulate oxygen and communicate all kinds of stuff all the time; they are like tiny little universes. Our psyche isn't just in our brain....it is located throughout our entire body...in all our cells, which is at least part of what makes up the soul (psuche).
If we are all of one blood (which I think we are)....how much memory do cells store and how far back would it go? If man was originally created body,soul, and spirit in the image of God....it seems that would have a big impact on the cells. Did not sin came in after the original creation? Did sin have a greater impact than God's original design? It seems to me God's original design (being more powerful than sin) would leave some impact, some residue, some memory?
ie: If sin (a spiritual trait) can be transmitted, surely godliness (a spiritual trait) can be. Or is sin more powerful than godliness?
I believe that man desires to do good....like Carole King sings. *wink* I believe the heart is good...as John Eldredge states. I believe god has planted a purpose divine in the hearts of men, as proverbs state. I believe this regardless of what Jeremiah states, that the heart is deceitful above all else. I've been pondering that Jeremiah scripture for years. :dontknow:
Quote from: firstborn888 on November 13, 2007, 11:50:01 AM
I do think that humans are born with nice healthy 'egos' without being taught anything. But yes, when all the layers of the earthy Adam are removed, the heavenly is there....
blessings,
byron
Off topic here: Byron, Is that you in your avatar photo? :thumbsup: And who is the little girl?
It's a beautiful photo....whoever it is. :Sparkletooth:
Great post jchpiper
It reminds me of Bob Torangos book 'The House that God Built', have you by chance read that book?
If not it will so bless you as he talks a lot about what you are sharing.
kept
oh one more thing
its seen here I think really clearly
Psa 90:2 Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.
Psa 90:3 Thou turnest man to destruction; and sayest, Return, ye children of men.
You are describing, to me that , return, that is written within our very dna
kept
Quote from: Kept on November 15, 2007, 05:40:59 AM
Great post jchpiper
It reminds me of Bob Torangos book 'The House that God Built', have you by chance read that book?
If not it will so bless you as he talks a lot about what you are sharing.
kept
I haven't read it...yet. ;-) But it is on my list now. Might be a little down the road....but I'm sure my eyes will cross it in the not-too-distant future. :thumbsup:
Quote from: Kept on November 15, 2007, 05:45:28 AM
oh one more thing
its seen here I think really clearly
Psa 90:2 Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.
Psa 90:3 Thou turnest man to destruction; and sayest, Return, ye children of men.
You are describing, to me that , return, that is written within our very dna
kept
That's cool... :winkgrin:
That brings to mind something Eric Stetson wrote. The essay is on "free will;" however, I found Eric's thoughts regarding the soul quite enlightening.
(Bold is mine):
"The bottom line, as I see it, is that I do not believe God would ever create a soul with the intrinsic desire to be damned. Therefore, all souls desire to be saved. If we desire something, we will inevitably seek it -- at least eventually we will, under the right conditions. Souls that do not seek salvation in this earthly life simply are too much under the influence of the desires of the flesh; but when the flesh falls away at death and the soul is liberated, the soul will be returned to its natural preponderance of inclinations, which is on balance to seek God. Therefore, I believe in the afterlife all souls will desire to be redeemed, and will be willing to do whatever is necessary to be reconciled and reunited with their Creator. "http://www.christian-universalism.com/faq/free-will.html
:thumbsup:
Quote from: jchpiper on November 15, 2007, 05:24:15 AM
Off topic here: Byron, Is that you in your avatar photo? :thumbsup: And who is the little girl? It's a beautiful photo....whoever it is. :Sparkletooth:
Hi Carol!
That's me with my adopted granddaughter Gabriella.
- byron
Quote from: firstborn888 on November 15, 2007, 08:10:57 AM
Quote from: jchpiper on November 15, 2007, 05:24:15 AM
Off topic here: Byron, Is that you in your avatar photo? :thumbsup: And who is the little girl? It's a beautiful photo....whoever it is. :Sparkletooth:
Hi Carol!
That's me with my adopted granddaughter Gabriella.
- byron
:Sparkletooth: :HeartThrob: :thumbsup:
Everybody's good and wll behaved after they're dead
Hello jchpiper, I dont really understand your post, but thats not unusual for me. I was adopted and met my birth mother when I was 21, we share an amazing amount of the same interests - am I on the right track, things are passed on?
I've read that when our bodies are looked at thru a microscope we are made up of mainly space. I've always liked the idea that God manifests as the space that allows things to be.
amanda
Quote from: firstborn888 on November 15, 2007, 11:13:15 AM
Everybody's good and wll behaved after they're dead
:icon_flower:
QuoteSome people say that we are born with a sinful nature and that we are, well, basically wicked.
I say our natural state is, dare I say it - divine.
Hi Amanda
For mine..no.........
the natural state of MAN is not divine,....its wicked...
As Byron Hinted..when the layers are removed etc :icon_flower: :icon_flower: :icon_flower:
Blessings
Taffy
willieH: Hi amanda... :welcome: to Tentmaker...
ALL MEN are born in the NATURAL state (which comes first - see 1 Cor 15:46 ) Within this state is the ability to DISOBEY... (SIN is in our FLESHLY members - Rom 7:23-25 / James 1:14)
Gen 2:17 notes that Adam and Eve were already DYING in the NATURAL, before "eating"
GOD's WORD is ETERNAL, and even though it was noted "post" (after) eating, GOD's WORD, contained (in the ETERNAL sense - no "before or after"), ...the statement that Adam & Eve would
return to the dust (Gen 3:19)
Genesis 2:17 (Young's Literal Translation)
Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
Public Domain
17and of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou dost not eat of it, for in the day of thine eating of it --
dying thou dost die.'
The DEATH that was wrought by their (and our) DISOBEDIENCE was (and is) SPIRITUAL... and it is THIS DEATH that CHRIST's sacrifice redeems us from... for FLESH & BLOOD (natural state of man) shall NOT inherit the Kingdom of God...
This is also why CHRIST observed "physically alive" human beings as DEAD... :nod: ("let the DEAD, bury their DEAD - Mat 8:22)
The DEATH which CHRIST tasted
FOR US (we "taste" for ourselves, physical death), is the DEATH we shall be redeemed FROM... that being, LIFE in the SPIRIT, ...our destiny... :myahoo: Which is
where the most sought after thing IN MAN is found, ...LOVE...
GOD is SPIRIT, and we are,
through the life and death of the natural, and
through sufferings (in the vessels of DISHONOR), being made in the IMAGE of GOD, which is SPIRIT... (the vessels of HONOR) (Rom 9:21 - one vessel of dishonor and one vessel of Honor, made of the
SAME LUMP - of CLAY)
We ALL die (and are APPOINTED to) the NATURAL DEATH (Heb 9:27), but CHRIST has redeemed us from SPIRITUAL DEATH, which first took place in Adam & Eve, in the Garden, as a result of NATURAL DISOBEDIENCE... and each of us has followed the NATURAL course after them, which contains that same ability they had, to DISOBEY...
If Adam & Eve did NOT have the ABILITY to DISOBEY (natural state of man), ...then they WOULD NOT have DISOBEYED the command of
YHVH... And subsequently would NOT have REFLECTED
YHVH by having the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL... which required DISOBEDIENCE!
YHVH stated, once the two had DISOBEYED, that they had become AS was He, ...
knowing GOOD and EVIL... :bigGrin:
pEace... :laughing7:
In
JESUS
...willieH :gamer:
Quote from: willieH on November 16, 2007, 03:46:57 AM
willieH: Hi amanda... :welcome: to Tentmaker...
ALL MEN are born in the NATURAL state (which comes first - see 1 Cor 15:46 ) Within this state is the ability to DISOBEY... (SIN is in our FLESHLY members - Rom 7:23-25 / James 1:14)
Gen 2:17 notes that Adam and Eve were already DYING in the NATURAL, before "eating"
GOD's WORD is ETERNAL, and even though it was noted "post" (after) eating, GOD's WORD, contained (in the ETERNAL sense - no "before or after"), ...the statement that Adam & Eve would return to the dust (Gen 3:19)
Genesis 2:17 (Young's Literal Translation)
Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
Public Domain
17and of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou dost not eat of it, for in the day of thine eating of it -- dying thou dost die.'
The DEATH that was wrought by their (and our) DISOBEDIENCE was (and is) SPIRITUAL... and it is THIS DEATH that CHRIST's sacrifice redeems us from... for FLESH & BLOOD (natural state of man) shall NOT inherit the Kingdom of God...
This is also why CHRIST observed "physically alive" human beings as DEAD... :nod: ("let the DEAD, bury their DEAD - Mat 8:22)
The DEATH which CHRIST tasted FOR US (we "taste" for ourselves, physical death), is the DEATH we shall be redeemed FROM... that being, LIFE in the SPIRIT, ...our destiny... :myahoo: Which is where the most sought after thing IN MAN is found, ...LOVE...
GOD is SPIRIT, and we are, through the life and death of the natural, and through sufferings (in the vessels of DISHONOR), being made in the IMAGE of GOD, which is SPIRIT... (the vessels of HONOR) (Rom 9:21 - one vessel of dishonor and one vessel of Honor, made of the SAME LUMP - of CLAY)
We ALL die (and are APPOINTED to) the NATURAL DEATH (Heb 9:27), but CHRIST has redeemed us from SPIRITUAL DEATH, which first took place in Adam & Eve, in the Garden, as a result of NATURAL DISOBEDIENCE... and each of us has followed the NATURAL course after them, which contains that same ability they had, to DISOBEY...
If Adam & Eve did NOT have the ABILITY to DISOBEY (natural state of man), ...then they WOULD NOT have DISOBEYED the command of YHVH... And subsequently would NOT have REFLECTED YHVH by having the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL... which required DISOBEDIENCE!
YHVH stated, once the two had DISOBEYED, that they had become AS was He, ...knowing GOOD and EVIL... :bigGrin:
pEace... :laughing7:
In JESUS
...willieH :gamer:
Hi Willie, or any one else that can answer my question. Why does it say that Jesus was the LAST Adam, yet most here continue to say we all are born in Adam, as if we are the continuing last Adam. If he was the last Adam, how can anyone else be born in Adam??
thanks
Laren
QuoteHi Willie, or any one else that can answer my question. Why does it say that Jesus was the LAST Adam, yet most here continue to say we all are born in Adam, as if we are the continuing last Adam. If he was the last Adam, how can anyone else be born in Adam??
thanks
Laren
Laren He wasnt only the LAST Adam...HE was ALSO the First.....
The ADAM BORN male and Female Is a Christ TYPE.....
however, the ADAM of the Flesh is ANOTHER....Bro Ive learnt that SCRIPTURE speaks TWO fold..one after the FLESH and one after the Spirit....both Bearing Testimony to each other...
DIVIDE the WORD of TRUTH...one after the FLESH ( OLDC) and then one after the SPIRIT( New C)
Genesis answers this...
maybe Pneuma or KIM will expound some...
Willie has done in the WAY of the Willie man :icon_flower:
Blessings
Taffy
To answer my own question, Christ is the head, but the body of Adam had to die and rise again too.
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
But could it be, that those alive prior to the resurrection; were the "in Adam", this generation.
Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
Mat 16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.
Could it be that preterist thinking is correct, and the generation of those "in Adam" saw I Corinth 15 come true, and that from then on, the finished work of the cross really has changed all, that all are born "in Christ".
But the world still teaches (from birth on) that we are evil, no good, and hence we all eat of a tree that is no longer given authority; and therefore we all go through the shedding of the layers of false belief systems; and our core really is LOVE?
just some things I continue to ponder.
oops, posted while you were posting Graham. :happygrin:
basically, I question;
are we changing from an evil one to a glorious one
or
are we "becoming aware/awaking up" to who we already are (glorious).
If the second statement is true, which the cross reveals imo,
I still don't deny that this is a painful process, a death to the "false belief" systems; and i see no reason the "is, was and will be" aspect spiritually applied is untrue. Old habits are hard to die.
Quote from: amanda on November 16, 2007, 02:31:04 AM
Hello jchpiper, I dont really understand your post, but thats not unusual for me. I was adopted and met my birth mother when I was 21, we share an amazing amount of the same interests - am I on the right track, things are passed on?
I've read that when our bodies are looked at thru a microscope we are made up of mainly space. I've always liked the idea that God manifests as the space that allows things to be.
amanda
My apologies Amanda... :mblush: It was a ramble.
Yup...about stuff being passed on, like the genetic stuff.
Some more ramble here. I don't know if it will clarify some of my thought snippets or not.
I was thinking about the nature of man from the angle that our cells throughout our bodies which are nourished by blood (wherein the soul of the flesh abides), that these cells contain memories themselves. Memory is not just in our brains, it is part of our souls.
So my question ends up how much of that original created spirit imprint was embedded in the first man's cells (soul) and was any of that passed down after the fall, or was that spirit imprint erased in man's soul due to the fall? If so does that make mankind wicked? What is the definition of wicked? Does the natural man mean the wicked man?
That being said, soul is different from spirit.
My next thought is that if it was erased or died, then when a person is born again (from above) Jesus Christ creates his spirit (the new man, that 2nd adam, Christ in you, the gift of the Holy Spirit, the comforter, etc.) within that person restoring that spiritual connection that Adam lost. If that is so, was their no spiritual connection within that person before that person got born again?
Following are snippets regarding cellular memory....
One of the books I've read,
The Heart's Code by Dr. Paul Pearsall, discusses cellular memory in observing what has happened with some organ transplant patients. Some patients experience memories of their donors...or use new words that were not in their vocabularies but were in their donor's vocabularies. Patients may take on new tastes in foods that the donor had. At least two patients of the 100 Pearsall interviewed knew how the donors died and saw the donor's last sight. It sounds kind of creepy, but is fascinating from a cellular memory perspective. These people didn't have brain transplants (of course); they had organ transplants and memories were transferred via these organs....via the cells within those organs. Of the 100 folks Pearsall spoke with, none were neutral on the subject regarding their experiences after a transplant. Some refused to speak; others opened up; but none were neutral. So I hope my sharing doesn't offend anyone here.
Another book,
Molecules of Emotion by Candace Pert, goes into the aspect of our mind is not just in our brain....but in our cells throughout our bodies. The Institute of Heartmath is doing research regarding what cardiologist call "the brain within the heart." It is a know fact that our gut and heart area contain the same communicators our brain contains.
All that (to me) plays into the soul category....imprints made on our cells. How does that play into spirit when man was originally formed, made, and created? Was there imprint from spirit left?
Hope that clarifies my thoughts some. Apologies if it doesn't.... :sigh:
Carol
This I believe has merit and IMO is possible wrt to transplants. If we look at emotions, let's take two
Love - falling in love.
Grief - death of a loved one
Where are these emotions felt? In the gut/chest etc. They are not felt in the mind.
It is the same as the mysterious sixth sense.
To say we are born wicked IMO does not hold water. Small children are innocent and they learn the sin of Adam.
If you study certain small unknown cultures like the bushmen in the Karroo desert in SA, they are so in touch with nature, I do not think they even spank children and they are very environment aware. There are however hybrids of these bushmen that have mixed it up with western culture and very much like what Paul said about sin only coming through the revelation of the law, can be seen with these hybrids who do pretty much everything the pure bushmen do not.
There is a tribe in South America and they are all naked, men and women. So for them there does not seem to be a flesh sin problem.
Now of course, we cannot just take our clothes off and go live off the land now can we? No, we were brought up different, different value systems. Hence those that have laws have measures to effect those laws.
So our Adamic nature is learned from our culture bias. Granted I have cited two exceptions to the rule, yet teaching a bushman about Jesus and even worse Christianity does more harm than good hence the hybrids I spoke of earlier, they stay in the Karroo but in houses and they do as westerners do and they wear westerners clothing. They tasted of civilisation and it destroyed their culture. Lucky, some still hold to the old ways.
View some pics of Bushmen here (http://images.google.co.uk/images?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4GFRG_enZA225ZA225&q=bushman&oe=UTF-8&um=1&sa=N&tab=wi) Note: these are likely not the true ones I am referring to
Blessings
QuoteCould it be that preterist thinking is correct, and the generation of those "in Adam" saw I Corinth 15 come true, and that from then on, the finished work of the cross really has changed all, that all are born "in Christ".
But the world still teaches (from birth on) that we are evil, no good, and hence we all eat of a tree that is no longer given authority; and therefore we all go through the shedding of the layers of false belief systems; and our core really is LOVE?
just some things I continue to ponder.
:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
Morning Seeker...
QuoteTo say we are born wicked IMO does not hold water. Small children are innocent and they learn the sin of Adam.
Wicked is just another metaphor for nakedness bro,..ever notice babies come into the WORLD naked ..even if they Know it or Not
Psa 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.
The womb\BELLY is likened to the MIND..Job 15:35; 32:18-19; Ps 31:9; Pr 22:17-18 ,,BellyJob 32:18-19 ; Pr 26:22 - [0990]; Jn 7:37-38
.The natural Fleshy mind of man is BARREN ,LACKING THE
light OF KNOWLEDGE.
Luk 23:29 For, behold, the days are coming, in the which they shall say, Blessed [are]
the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck
Pro 30:16 The grave; and the barren womb; the earth [that] is not filled with water; and the fire [that] saith not, [It is] enough.
Jhn 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Jhn 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his
mother's womb, and be born?
Jhn 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Jhn 7:37 ¶ In the last day, that great [day] of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.
Jhn 7:38 He that
believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water The barren Mind to be FILLED :icon_flower:
Gal 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
Gal 4:27 For it is written, Rejoice, [thou] barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.
2Pe 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
2Pe 1:5 ¶ And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
2Pe 1:6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
2Pe 1:7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
2Pe 1:8 For if these things
be in you, and
abound, they
make [you that ye shall] neither [be] barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Blessings
Taffy
willieH: Hi jch! Welcome to TM :welcome:
Quote from: jchpiper on November 16, 2007, 08:18:50 AM
Following are snippets regarding cellular memory....
One of the books I've read, The Heart's Code by Dr. Paul Pearsall, discusses cellular memory in observing what has happened with some organ transplant patients. Some patients experience memories of their donors...or use new words that were not in their vocabularies but were in their donor's vocabularies. Patients may take on new tastes in foods that the donor had. At least two patients of the 100 Pearsall interviewed knew how the donors died and saw the donor's last sight. It sounds kind of creepy, but is fascinating from a cellular memory perspective. These people didn't have brain transplants (of course); they had organ transplants and memories were transferred via these organs....via the cells within those organs. Of the 100 folks Pearsall spoke with, none were neutral on the subject regarding their experiences after a transplant. Some refused to speak; others opened up; but none were neutral.
Thanks for posting! This was an amazing bit of info! :goodpost:
pEace... :laughing7:
In
JESUS
...willieH :gamer:
QuoteSome people say that we are born with a sinful nature and that we are, well, basically wicked.
I say our natural state is, dare I say it - divine.
From the time we are born we are conditioned and "taught' how to get along in this world.
We develope the ego as a way to keep ourselves safe from the pain of having to be different to what we feel. The ego is always trying to be something - kind, loving, strong or whatever, like if we dont believe ourselves to be kind we "try" to be kind.
The ego doesnt know who we truly are, our true self arises from within, from that place in us that is divine, our true self doesnt try to do or be anything it just is. The conditioning from this world is what we need to let go of so that our true selves can be released.
Two things...
1. Bang on! We were created in the image and likeness of God and we followed a lie. We didn't get made in the image and likeness of the lie and try to follow God!
2. This is a discription of the garden experience, Adam was made in the likeness of God yet in Genesis 3 the serpent told Adam that he needed to eat from the tree then he would be like God. Adam believed the serpent and tried to be like God.
Adam didn't believe he was like God so he tried to be like God. That is not the natural state of a man, that's the tainted state on man!
Jesus was the second Adam, the restored state of man, the old one clothed in his own works, and Jesus clothed in God's.Becuase of Jesus' finished work, all have been clothed in Him.
Man isn't a bag of crap that is becoming divine, no that's rediculous, God would not make His very own children as bags of crap. Man was, is and always will be be made divine, it's us who cover ouselves in crap!! That's why we need to be washed in the blood!
The crap we cover ourselves in is how Amanda put it, trying to become something we believe were not. We believed a lie; that were not like God, now we cover ourselves as we try to be like Him. The goodnews however is that because of what Jesus has done,
we have no need to cover ourselves for He is the very proof that we are like God!
Quote from: Taffy on November 16, 2007, 01:57:03 PM
Morning Seeker...
QuoteTo say we are born wicked IMO does not hold water. Small children are innocent and they learn the sin of Adam.
Wicked is just another metaphor for nakedness bro,..ever notice babies come into the WORLD naked ..even if they Know it or Not
Psa 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.
The womb\BELLY is likened to the MIND..Job 15:35; 32:18-19; Ps 31:9; Pr 22:17-18 ,,BellyJob 32:18-19 ; Pr 26:22 - [0990]; Jn 7:37-38
.The natural Fleshy mind of man is BARREN ,LACKING THE light OF KNOWLEDGE.
Luk 23:29 For, behold, the days are coming, in the which they shall say, Blessed [are] the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck
Pro 30:16 The grave; and the barren womb; the earth [that] is not filled with water; and the fire [that] saith not, [It is] enough.
Jhn 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Jhn 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
Jhn 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Jhn 7:37 In the last day, that great [day] of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.
Jhn 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water
The barren Mind to be FILLED :icon_flower:
Gal 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
Gal 4:27 For it is written, Rejoice, [thou] barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.
2Pe 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
2Pe 1:5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
2Pe 1:6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
2Pe 1:7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
2Pe 1:8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make [you that ye shall] neither [be] barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Blessings
Taffy
I seem to agree Taffy. We are born into corruption right from the get go. If you have ever gotten up from bed in the middle of the night to feed or comfort your new born you know all that little guy thinks about, is himself. lol
Quote from: SeekerSA on November 16, 2007, 11:04:45 AM
Carol
This I believe has merit and IMO is possible wrt to transplants. If we look at emotions, let's take two
Love - falling in love.
Grief - death of a loved one
Where are these emotions felt? In the gut/chest etc. They are not felt in the mind.
It is the same as the mysterious sixth sense.
To say we are born wicked IMO does not hold water. Small children are innocent and they learn the sin of Adam.
If you study certain small unknown cultures like the bushmen in the Karroo desert in SA, they are so in touch with nature, I do not think they even spank children and they are very environment aware. There are however hybrids of these bushmen that have mixed it up with western culture and very much like what Paul said about sin only coming through the revelation of the law, can be seen with these hybrids who do pretty much everything the pure bushmen do not.
There is a tribe in South America and they are all naked, men and women. So for them there does not seem to be a flesh sin problem.
Now of course, we cannot just take our clothes off and go live off the land now can we? No, we were brought up different, different value systems. Hence those that have laws have measures to effect those laws.
So our Adamic nature is learned from our culture bias. Granted I have cited two exceptions to the rule, yet teaching a bushman about Jesus and even worse Christianity does more harm than good hence the hybrids I spoke of earlier, they stay in the Karroo but in houses and they do as westerners do and they wear westerners clothing. They tasted of civilisation and it destroyed their culture. Lucky, some still hold to the old ways.
View some pics of Bushmen here (http://images.google.co.uk/images?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4GFRG_enZA225ZA225&q=bushman&oe=UTF-8&um=1&sa=N&tab=wi) Note: these are likely not the true ones I am referring to
Blessings
Enjoyed this Bernie, and the photos. In another life, I'd be a NG photographer and journalist. Wonder if there will be any positions open in the new heaven and earth? :winkgrin:
From your post I learned a new anacronym: wrt = with respect to (?). Yay google!!!
Quote from: willieH on November 16, 2007, 10:34:10 PM
willieH: Hi jch! Welcome to TM :welcome:
Quote from: jchpiper on November 16, 2007, 08:18:50 AM
Following are snippets regarding cellular memory....
One of the books I've read, The Heart's Code by Dr. Paul Pearsall, discusses cellular memory in observing what has happened with some organ transplant patients. Some patients experience memories of their donors...or use new words that were not in their vocabularies but were in their donor's vocabularies. Patients may take on new tastes in foods that the donor had. At least two patients of the 100 Pearsall interviewed knew how the donors died and saw the donor's last sight. It sounds kind of creepy, but is fascinating from a cellular memory perspective. These people didn't have brain transplants (of course); they had organ transplants and memories were transferred via these organs....via the cells within those organs. Of the 100 folks Pearsall spoke with, none were neutral on the subject regarding their experiences after a transplant. Some refused to speak; others opened up; but none were neutral.
Thanks for posting! This was an amazing bit of info! :goodpost:
pEace... :laughing7:
In JESUS
...willieH :gamer:
Thank you for the welcome Willie. :icon_flower: :thumbsup:
Quote from: Dallas on November 16, 2007, 11:31:52 PM
QuoteSome people say that we are born with a sinful nature and that we are, well, basically wicked.
I say our natural state is, dare I say it - divine.
From the time we are born we are conditioned and "taught' how to get along in this world.
We develope the ego as a way to keep ourselves safe from the pain of having to be different to what we feel. The ego is always trying to be something - kind, loving, strong or whatever, like if we dont believe ourselves to be kind we "try" to be kind.
The ego doesnt know who we truly are, our true self arises from within, from that place in us that is divine, our true self doesnt try to do or be anything it just is. The conditioning from this world is what we need to let go of so that our true selves can be released.
Two things...
1. Bang on! We were created in the image and likeness of God and we followed a lie. We didn't get made in the image and likeness of the lie and try to follow God!
2. This is a discription of the garden experience, Adam was made in the likeness of God yet in Genesis 3 the serpent told Adam that he needed to eat from the tree then he would be like God. Adam believed the serpent and tried to be like God.
Adam didn't believe he was like God so he tried to be like God. That is not the natural state of a man, that's the tainted state on man!
Jesus was the second Adam, the restored state of man, the old one clothed in his own works, and Jesus clothed in God's.Becuase of Jesus' finished work, all have been clothed in Him.
Man isn't a bag of crap that is becoming divine, no that's rediculous, God would not make His very own children as bags of crap. Man was, is and always will be be made divine, it's us who cover ouselves in crap!! That's why we need to be washed in the blood!
The crap we cover ourselves in is how Amanda put it, trying to become something we believe were not. We believed a lie; that were not like God, now we cover ourselves as we try to be like Him. The goodnews however is that because of what Jesus has done, we have no need to cover ourselves for He is the very proof that we are like God!
Wow...hmmm....got my attention.... :happy3:
Quote
I seem to agree Taffy. We are born into corruption right from the get go. If you have ever gotten up from bed in the middle of the night to feed or comfort your new born you know all that little guy thinks about, is himself. lol
Hi Jack....we have four( teenagers..two boys and girls...)...nothing changes..well not yet..even now they think very much of themselves..but there learning To UNDERSTAND but only thro EXPERIENCE.....
Blessings
Taffy
Quote from: Dallas on November 16, 2007, 11:31:52 PM
QuoteSome people say that we are born with a sinful nature and that we are, well, basically wicked.
I say our natural state is, dare I say it - divine.
From the time we are born we are conditioned and "taught' how to get along in this world.
We develope the ego as a way to keep ourselves safe from the pain of having to be different to what we feel. The ego is always trying to be something - kind, loving, strong or whatever, like if we dont believe ourselves to be kind we "try" to be kind.
The ego doesnt know who we truly are, our true self arises from within, from that place in us that is divine, our true self doesnt try to do or be anything it just is. The conditioning from this world is what we need to let go of so that our true selves can be released.
Two things...
1. Bang on! We were created in the image and likeness of God and we followed a lie. We didn't get made in the image and likeness of the lie and try to follow God!
2. This is a discription of the garden experience, Adam was made in the likeness of God yet in Genesis 3 the serpent told Adam that he needed to eat from the tree then he would be like God. Adam believed the serpent and tried to be like God.
Adam didn't believe he was like God so he tried to be like God. That is not the natural state of a man, that's the tainted state on man!
Jesus was the second Adam, the restored state of man, the old one clothed in his own works, and Jesus clothed in God's.Becuase of Jesus' finished work, all have been clothed in Him.
Man isn't a bag of crap that is becoming divine, no that's rediculous, God would not make His very own children as bags of crap. Man was, is and always will be be made divine, it's us who cover ouselves in crap!! That's why we need to be washed in the blood!
The crap we cover ourselves in is how Amanda put it, trying to become something we believe were not. We believed a lie; that were not like God, now we cover ourselves as we try to be like Him. The goodnews however is that because of what Jesus has done, we have no need to cover ourselves for He is the very proof that we are like God!
:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
I believe this is what Amanda, Laren and Seeker where saying summarized :goodone:
Quote from: laren on November 16, 2007, 04:51:04 AM
basically, I question;
are we changing from an evil one to a glorious one
or
are we "becoming aware/awaking up" to who we already are (glorious).
If the second statement is true, which the cross reveals imo,
I still don't deny that this is a painful process, a death to the "false belief" systems; and i see no reason the "is, was and will be" aspect spiritually applied is untrue. Old habits are hard to die.
Missed this One Laren
I hope i get your understanding Laren..
yes we are moving from one state unto another..
We are ALL born DEAD bro..( spirtually SPEAKING)...check out willies post..., TRUE Life is HIM and ONLY found in HIM
we move from Death to life TWO fold....
as is SPOKEN..the DEAD know NOTHING...... life is CHRIST......
Time and Time again Christ uses the pharisees (dead to HIM) to explain all this
The pharisees are a PRIME example of the FLESH off US ALL...DEAD to HIM.
DEATH is painful spiritually speaking..we move FROM as scripture speaks from a ChilD\BABE\SLAVE ( as one under LAW and death to a SON\HEIR born IN HIM..........
FOR MINE This is what this says...being BORN AGAIN
Mic 4:10
Be in pain, and labour to bring forth, O daughter of Zion, like
a woman in travail: for now shalt thou go forth
out of the city, and thou shalt dwell in the
field, and thou shalt go [even] to Babylon; there shalt thou be delivered;
there the LORD shall redeem thee from the hand of thine enemies. JOY........... laren is a Metaphor FOR CHRIST..AN HOUR is an APPOINTED time which comes to all men..as a THEIF in the ( DARKNESSof NIGHT)
Jhn 16:21 A
woman when she is in travail hath sorrow, because
her hour is come: but as soon as she
is delivered of the child, she remembereth
no more the anguish, for
joy that
a man is born into the world paul himself became ALL things( christ for mine) for all people suffering their pain and anguish WITH them as they moved FROM age to age...
l 4:19 My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be
formed in you,
to those in DARKNESS and those IN THE LIGHT...
got to see these sciptures bro wid them spirItual EYES....
1Th 2:9 For ye remember, brethren, our
labour and travail: for labouring
night and day, because we would not be chargeable unto any of you, we preached unto you the
gospel of God. all made POSSIBLE by the CROSS :icon_flower:
BLESSINGS BRO
Quote from: Taffy on November 17, 2007, 03:08:10 AM
Quote from: laren on November 16, 2007, 04:51:04 AM
basically, I question;
are we changing from an evil one to a glorious one
or
are we "becoming aware/awaking up" to who we already are (glorious).
If the second statement is true, which the cross reveals imo,
I still don't deny that this is a painful process, a death to the "false belief" systems; and i see no reason the "is, was and will be" aspect spiritually applied is untrue. Old habits are hard to die.
Missed this One Laren
I hope i get your understanding Laren..
yes we are moving from one state unto another..
We are ALL born DEAD bro..( spirtually SPEAKING)...check out willies post..., TRUE Life is HIM and ONLY found in HIM
we move from Death to life TWO fold....
as is SPOKEN..the DEAD know NOTHING...... life is CHRIST......
Time and Time again Christ uses the pharisees (dead to HIM) to explain all this
The pharisees are a PRIME example of the FLESH off US ALL...DEAD to HIM.
DEATH is painful spiritually speaking..we move FROM as scripture speaks from a ChilD\BABE\SLAVE ( as one under LAW and death to a SON\HEIR born IN HIM..........
FOR MINE This is what this says...being BORN AGAIN
Mic 4:10 Be in pain, and labour to bring forth, O daughter of Zion, like a woman in travail: for now shalt thou go forth out of the city, and thou shalt dwell in the field, and thou shalt go [even] to Babylon; there shalt thou be delivered; there the LORD shall redeem thee from the hand of thine enemies.
JOY........... laren is a Metaphor FOR CHRIST..AN HOUR is an APPOINTED time which comes to all men..as a THEIF in the ( DARKNESSof NIGHT)
Jhn 16:21 A woman when she is in travail hath sorrow, because her hour is come: but as soon as she is delivered of the child, she remembereth no more the anguish, for joy that a man is born into the world
paul himself became ALL things( christ for mine) for all people suffering their pain and anguish WITH them as they moved FROM age to age...
l 4:19 My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,
to those in DARKNESS and those IN THE LIGHT...
got to see these sciptures bro wid them spirItual EYES....
1Th 2:9 For ye remember, brethren, our labour and travail: for labouring night and day, because we would not be chargeable unto any of you, we preached unto you the gospel of God.
all made POSSIBLE by the CROSS :icon_flower:
BLESSINGS BRO
Thanks Graham for the reply.
So do you think Graham that a non believer, or even a babe in Christ, not yet freed from the gospel; has this heart?
Jer 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and
desperately wicked: who can know it?
Paul says it all here FOR mine laren...
LETTING go of ONES conditioning is NEVER easy...........and neither is the PAIN of CHILDBIRTH
Others trials become ours as with PAUL..we suffer WITH them
l 4:19 My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,
Blessings
TAFFY
Quote from: laren on November 17, 2007, 03:41:51 AM
So do you think Graham that a non believer, or even a babe in Christ, not yet freed from the gospel; has this heart?
Jer 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
That's why I never use that passage for NT believers
Ezekiel 36:26 "I will give them a new heart, and put a new spirit within them; I will remove the heart of stone from their flesh and give them a heart of flesh, so that they may follow my statutes and keep my ordinances and obey them."
The stony heart is not moved by the law of God, the fleshy one is a pushover.
As far as those who say babies are basically born good and have to choose or learn disobedience: I don't know what planet you are from, but here on earth all humans are born selfish and have to learn obedience - not the other way around.
Talk to any day care worker and they can confirm this fact for you with many infallible proofs...
blessings,
Byron
Quote from: firstborn888 on November 17, 2007, 05:39:07 AM
Quote from: laren on November 17, 2007, 03:41:51 AM
So do you think Graham that a non believer, or even a babe in Christ, not yet freed from the gospel; has this heart?
Jer 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
That's why I never use that passage for NT believers
Ezekiel 36:26 "I will give them a new heart, and put a new spirit within them; I will remove the heart of stone from their flesh and give them a heart of flesh, so that they may follow my statutes and keep my ordinances and obey them."
The stony heart is not moved by the law of God, the fleshy one is a pushover.
As far as those who say babies are basically born good and have to choose or learn disobedience: I don't know what planet you are from, but here on earth all humans are born selfish and have to learn obedience - not the other way around.
Talk to any day care worker and they can confirm this fact for you with many infallible proofs...
blessings,
Byron
Hmmmm......Christ said we are to become like little children , didn't he? It seems the context was regarding malice? I'm going on memory....so my context might be wrong.
I've worked with children in daycares for years, and I think I'd disagree byron... on the born selfish part. :-) Perhaps it is just a matter of semantics. :dontknow: Is it
selfishness a child exhibits, or is it a
need, a need to be held, to be loved, to be nourished, to be respected? A baby's "job" is survival. But is that selfishness? It seems selfishness is a willful act and survival an instinct?
Is born "good" and born "innocent" the same thing? Again, semantics.... :sigh:
I'm not trying to be disagreeable, just thinking out loud. :2c:
The "selfishness" bit could be me projecting some of my personal negative experience with that word. For me, I can not work with children thinking of them as selfish. When I approach them (toddlers) with respect, listening to them, and with the attitude that they want to do right, that they have a need for boundaries and love, obedience seems to come easier. Not all the time....but most of the time. Four-year olds and I get along great. I love those little guys and gals; they melt my heart. :girlheart:
(edit addition) btw: some people probably do think I come from another planet...at times... :winkgrin:
Blessings!
~carol
PS: Gabrielle is a cutie. :icon_flower: (Apologies if I misspelled her name.. :mblush:)
Quote from: firstborn888 on November 17, 2007, 05:39:07 AM
Quote from: laren on November 17, 2007, 03:41:51 AM
So do you think Graham that a non believer, or even a babe in Christ, not yet freed from the gospel; has this heart?
Jer 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
That's why I never use that passage for NT believers
Ezekiel 36:26 "I will give them a new heart, and put a new spirit within them; I will remove the heart of stone from their flesh and give them a heart of flesh, so that they may follow my statutes and keep my ordinances and obey them."
The stony heart is not moved by the law of God, the fleshy one is a pushover.
As far as those who say babies are basically born good and have to choose or learn disobedience: I don't know what planet you are from, but here on earth all humans are born selfish and have to learn obedience - not the other way around.
Talk to any day care worker and they can confirm this fact for you with many infallible proofs...
blessings,
Byron
So here's my thinking. We are created perfect. Perfectly loved, adored by the Father. The hardened heart, deceitful heart is all of our perception. A construct of our own mind. We die,
seperate ourselves from God when we seek righteousness other than through faith in LOVE. God's view of us never changes. He has always 100 percent accepted us.
Coming to a place of being tired of seeking God's approval through self works, we come to a point of trust in Christ. This changes
our perceptions of ourselves. It brings us back to LOVE, it does not change God's view of us, but our view of God. We realize all along we are adored.
The finished work of the cross, imo; revealed this. While we are living a life of eating from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, we are still perfect, still adored. We just don't realize it, until we come home. Notice it's the prodigal son who returns to the Father, not the other way around. He was adored before leaving, adored during his false perceptions/beliefs on how to obtain peace (eating slop), and adored on his return.
So, to me; God's plan is to reveal to us we are accepted, we are cherished, we are HIS perfect creation. When the layers of of "crap" come off, we find out we don't need to be ashamed, we don't need to fear, we are his cherished child.
this to me, has been very freeing. To see who I am, loved and adored, allows me to look at others the same way. seeing others for who they are, not for there false beliefs about themselves.
Hope this makes sense. Lord, open my eyes if I am wrong. But I just am so tired of the teaching that we are crap at the get go. I believe the cross reveals that we arent'.
We aren't crap, we've just failed to believe in LOVE.
jmo
Laren
Quote from: jchpiper on November 17, 2007, 06:53:18 AM
I've worked with children in daycares for years, and I think I'd disagree byron... on the born selfish part. :-) Perhaps it is just a matter of semantics. :dontknow: Is it selfishness a child exhibits, or is it a need, a need to be held, to be loved, to be nourished, to be respected? A baby's "job" is survival. But is that selfishness? It seems selfishness is a willful act and survival an instinct?
Yes, thay are born programmed to have their own needs met first, and not just for survival. Screaming "MY TOY! MY TOY!" while grabbing it from the other 1 year old comes to mind.
Quote from: jchpiper on November 17, 2007, 06:53:18 AM
Is born "good" and born "innocent" the same thing? Again, semantics.... :sigh:
Absolutely they are innocent, just doing what they are pre-programmed to do. No willful malice or intent.
Quote from: jchpiper on November 17, 2007, 06:53:18 AM
I'm not trying to be disagreeable, just thinking out loud. :2c:
Stop thinking so loud! :happygrin:
Quote from: jchpiper on November 17, 2007, 06:53:18 AM
The "selfishness" bit could be me projecting some of my personal negative experience with that word. For me, I can not work with children thinking of them as selfish. When I approach them (toddlers) with respect, listening to them, and with the attitude that they want to do right, that they have a need for boundaries and love, obedience seems to come easier. Not all the time....but most of the time. Four-year olds and I get along great. I love those little guys and gals; they melt my heart. :girlheart:
And they obviously melted Jesus' heart as well...
Selfishness seems negative in a way, but it's really just a starting point for a long journey into agape selflessness. So the starting line isn't 'evil' in itself. It only becomes evil if you sit down on it and stay there.
Quote from: jchpiper on November 17, 2007, 06:53:18 AM
PS: Gabrielle is a cutie. :icon_flower: (Apologies if I misspelled her name.. :mblush:)
Yes, that selfish little perfect creature!
Quote from: laren on November 17, 2007, 07:05:21 AM
God's view of us never changes. He has always 100 percent accepted us.
BINGO! :2thumbs:
Quote from: laren on November 17, 2007, 07:05:21 AM
While we are living a life of eating from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, we are still perfect, still adored. We just don't realize it, until we come home. Notice it's the prodigal son who returns to the Father, not the other way around. He was adored before leaving, adored during his false perceptions/beliefs on how to obtain peace (eating slop), and adored on his return.
BINGO! :2thumbs: :2thumbs:
That's exactly what I'm saying - we are born eating from the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
Quote from: laren on November 17, 2007, 07:05:21 AM
So, to me; God's plan is to reveal to us we are accepted, we are cherished, we are HIS perfect creation. When the layers of of "crap" come off, we find out we don't need to be ashamed, we don't need to fear, we are his cherished child.
Quote from: laren on November 17, 2007, 07:05:21 AM
this to me, has been very freeing. To see who I am, loved and adored, allows me to look at others the same way. seeing others for who they are, not for there false beliefs about themselves.
BINGO! BINGO! :2thumbs: :2thumbs:
Quote from: laren on November 17, 2007, 07:05:21 AM
Hope this makes sense. Lord, open my eyes if I am wrong. But I just am so tired of the teaching that we are crap at the get go. I believe the cross reveals that we arent'. We aren't crap, we've just failed to believe in LOVE.
I think you guys are on the money here. My only contention is that I don't think humans have to 'learn' evil. We inherited the fruit of that DNA in our flesh. The scripture says that the death Adam received passed upon all men.
The Calvinists teach a thing called 'total depravity' ('tis the T in the TULIP), that is, in humans there is no good thing at all. Paul specified that in his 'flesh' there was no good thing, not that in his entire being there was no good thing.
blessings,
- byron
Quote from: Firstborn888The Calvinists teach a thing called 'total depravity' ('tis the T in the TULIP), that is, in humans there is no good thing at all. Paul specified that in his 'flesh' there was no good thing, not that in his entire being there was no good thing.
I would go further to interpret the no good in the flesh is by comparison to Jesus. He was the perfect Man.
Going back to the two tribes I mentioned, there are traits within those two cultures that disprove much of what we Westerners hold to.
I guess when you can see yourself as God sees you like a parent with unconditional love, then you can start to see the good in everybody. Their faults become pale by comparison.
I think we all suffer a bit of the victim mentality as proffered by the mainstream.
For God so
loved the world didn't know what else to do that He sent His only begotten Son
(as a last resort) so that whosoever believes in Him
may just maybe will get eternal life.
Is that not how we have been taught?
Quote from: jchpiper on November 16, 2007, 08:18:50 AM
Following are snippets regarding cellular memory....
One of the books I've read, The Heart's Code by Dr. Paul Pearsall, discusses cellular memory in observing what has happened with some organ transplant patients. Some patients experience memories of their donors...or use new words that were not in their vocabularies but were in their donor's vocabularies. Patients may take on new tastes in foods that the donor had. At least two patients of the 100 Pearsall interviewed knew how the donors died and saw the donor's last sight. It sounds kind of creepy, but is fascinating from a cellular memory perspective. These people didn't have brain transplants (of course); they had organ transplants and memories were transferred via these organs....via the cells within those organs. Of the 100 folks Pearsall spoke with, none were neutral on the subject regarding their experiences after a transplant. Some refused to speak; others opened up; but none were neutral. So I hope my sharing doesn't offend anyone here.
:cloud9: I have heard of that happening. I know it's a touchy subject, but for me, that's why I don't agree with donor transplants. If you have one, you are taking on the generational curses of the donor as well. Being joined flesh to flesh in any way without the Lord's direction, has the same result. He didn't just make up these "rules" for no reason. He knew the end result would strengthen the bands.
He would not let me put donor on my driver's license for another reason, as well. He said it was making a covenant with death. I'm not agreeing to die; I'm agreeing that He is going to swallow up my corruption.
And as a natural deterrent, I worked with a woman who used to work for a hospital, dealing with those things. She told me that if someone came in that was very badly injured, if they were a donor, they were less likely to try to save that person, because they wanted their organs. It makes sense that there would arise a wrong motive in there somewhere, considering the thoughts of unregenerate man are corrupt, and the love of money is the root of all evil. Blessings.....
This is what I understand on the subject. And I sure don't understand it all. But this
makes sense to me. Doctors know about DNA. They trust it. They prove or disprove
crimes based on it. "That" DNA is taken from the "natural" blood! Or cells, or whatever
is on the "human." It possibly could be "tampered" with by organ donors...for either good
or bad.
But there is another DNA...........to obtain it's unfurling within you, you MUST be "born
again." Man is born with a "world" in his heart, Solomon said, that NEEDS saving!
We are "being" born again, and as we are "being" born again, this DNA of the
"spiritual SECOND Man" the very Lord from Heaven as 1st Cor 15 calls him, is "unfurled"
for our consciousness to see. . . "as" we walk in the Light He has "given" us, more LIGHT,
or MORe of HIS DNA is "unfurled".........from the beginning, God placed the cheribums
and a "flaming sword" to keep the WAY "WAY" of the Tree of LIFE! The "WAY" is not
just any ole WAY, but is following HIM and HE is "personal" to each of us. I don't know about you, but
I know when He is dealing with ME and what He asks of ME might not be what He asks of
you, but it "unfurls" more of HIM as I walk in that Light, and bear my own cross, fellowshipping in HIS sufferings! Now, He showed me that PERFECT
Second Man that is HIS Image on the beginning of my journey, probably did you, but to
keep that MAN in focus, because of ups and downs and ins and outs along the way, we
tend to pick up some Babylon, that God has to shake off us, to return us to the focus
of that Perfect Man that He made. And to shake it off, He shakes! It is not easy to go
thru the shakings! Or the chastisments......but the end result is that we become partakers
in the Divine Nature. If we study about the two witnesses, we can see them being killed
in the street where He was crucified, but at the end, they rose in the very sight of those
enemies that had killed them. I believe that for the Word and Spirit that they were following, becoming partakers in the sufferings of Christ, did and does not end with
their death in the street. But in their ascension.........out of it! His Spiritual DNA unfurling
as a REWARD for having suffered with HIM. I can't say that "I" have the remote control,
but I believe He does!
We are the product of HIS Hands, He it is that hath made us, and
NOT we ourselves.
Frankly, I have "no" confidence in the flesh, and the "good" thing
that is in us that we are to acknowledge is HIM, not "we" ourselves!
Most people that
have followed HIM into His death, look like it, til they are resurrected! Paul wrote "I bear
the marks in my body!" "Henceforth let no man trouble me, etc." And if you know
me, said Jesus, in the fellowship of my sufferings, ye shall also reign with me in GLORY!
Some things do NOT happen til the TIME appointed of the Father!
Red wrote
QuoteHe showed me that PERFECT
Second Man that is HIS Image on the beginning of my journey, probably did you, but to
keep that MAN in focus, because of ups and downs and ins and outs along the way, we
tend to pick up some Babylon, that God has to shake off us, to return us to the focus
of that Perfect Man that He made.
What did the second man look like :dontknow:
:girlheart:
Quote from: Loveroftruth on November 17, 2007, 02:33:46 PM
Red wrote
QuoteHe showed me that PERFECT
Second Man that is HIS Image on the beginning of my journey, probably did you, but to
keep that MAN in focus, because of ups and downs and ins and outs along the way, we
tend to pick up some Babylon, that God has to shake off us, to return us to the focus
of that Perfect Man that He made.
What did the second man look like :dontknow:
:girlheart:
Well, sweetheart, he is a "heavenly" being. What I see as the IMAGE that we shall bear
is a "heavely being." He is not seen with natural eyes....I don't think.
He rides on the wings of the wind! I saw His traits once in a dream
when I observed a natural
man on the earth in chaos, and He reached a long arm from the heavens to the earth
and stilled that man! ONLY God can do that. Just think: as we have borne the IMAGE
of the earthy man, so "shall we" bear the IMAGE of the Heavenly! I suppose He could
be whatever He wanted to be, He is made in the IMAGE of God! Heavenly! I think the
heavenly man moves in Secret places.....sometimes He appeared to a few in the Bible,
to witnesses chosen. What did He look like to them? There are instances where He
showed Himself and not all say exactly the same manifestion, to me, anyway, but what
I am talking about is a "heavenly" being!
Hey Red,
Thanks for sharing :mfriends: That was wonderful to read :HeartThrob:
you said this
QuoteI think the
heavenly man moves in Secret places.....sometimes He appeared to a few in the Bible,
to witnesses chosen. What did He look like to them? There are instances where He
showed Himself and not all say exactly the same manifestion, to me, anyway, but what
I am talking about is a "heavenly" being!
What do you mean by this?
I guess I meant like in dreams.......
I sent you a message.
Quote from: Loveroftruth on November 17, 2007, 02:33:46 PM
Red wrote
QuoteHe showed me that PERFECT
Second Man that is HIS Image on the beginning of my journey, probably did you, but to
keep that MAN in focus, because of ups and downs and ins and outs along the way, we
tend to pick up some Babylon, that God has to shake off us, to return us to the focus
of that Perfect Man that He made.
What did the second man look like :dontknow:
:girlheart:
I can tell you what he looks like to me. He tells the truth. No matter what the consequences are to him, he stands up and tells the truth.
Any idea how rare that is? But, I see him now everywhere, telling the truth.
But, before you can tell the truth, and before you can recognize the truth, you first have to know it yourself.
QuoteI can tell you what he looks like to me. He tells the truth. No matter what the consequences are to him, he stands up and tells the truth.
Any idea how rare that is? But, I see him now everywhere, telling the truth.
But, before you can tell the truth, and before you can recognize the truth, you first have to know it yourself.
Sister,
You have no idea how that spoke to me :HeartThrob:
:cloud9: :thumbsup: Amen, Molly!
There are some really great posts here, I dont know what the thread-starter-protocol is, so I'll just jump back in.
Our true nature is freedom, freedom from ourselves, it is expressed with no self thought, it is pure and true because its not filtered through our own "oppinion", everyone can experience it, it is our first "feeling" (for lack of a better word) before we name it, judge it and corrupt it according to our own beliefs. Our true nature just flows naturally there is no self-control, this is not the same as being out of control, we are simply free from controling ourselves.
amanda
Quote from: amanda on November 19, 2007, 05:27:20 AM
There are some really great posts here, I dont know what the thread-starter-protocol is, so I'll just jump back in.
Our true nature is freedom, freedom from ourselves, it is expressed with no self thought, it is pure and true because its not filtered through our own "oppinion", everyone can experience it, it is our first "feeling" (for lack of a better word) before we name it, judge it and corrupt it according to our own beliefs. Our true nature just flows naturally there is no self-control, this is not the same as being out of control, we are simply free from controling ourselves.
amanda
I think what you just said is the part of the 'becoming like children' that Jesus was referring to.
blessings,
byron
P.S. welcome back to your thread!
Thanks byron, I'll check out the becoming like children that Jesus spoke about and see if it resonates.
amanda
Quote from: amanda on November 19, 2007, 05:27:20 AM
There are some really great posts here, I dont know what the thread-starter-protocol is, so I'll just jump back in.
Our true nature is freedom, freedom from ourselves, it is expressed with no self thought, it is pure and true because its not filtered through our own "oppinion", everyone can experience it, it is our first "feeling" (for lack of a better word) before we name it, judge it and corrupt it according to our own beliefs. Our true nature just flows naturally there is no self-control, this is not the same as being out of control, we are simply free from controling ourselves.
amanda
YES YES YES! I SO SEE IT! :flowerred:
Quote from: amanda on November 19, 2007, 05:27:20 AM
Our true nature is freedom, freedom from ourselves, it is expressed with no self thought, it is pure and true because its not filtered through our own "opinion", everyone can experience it, it is our first "feeling" (for lack of a better word) before we name it, judge it and corrupt it according to our own beliefs. Our true nature just flows naturally there is no self-control, this is not the same as being out of control, we are simply free from controling ourselves.
amanda
GREAT understanding!~ Whom the SON sets FREE, is FREE indeed. I think we "experience" that
here a little, there a little, most of the time people will try and "cut it off" ......you don't seem
to be able to "express" it except IN THE SPIRIT! There "is" a PLACE where NO MAN can
hinder!! tho! Not even ourselves. Good that you said "that" .......When GOD gives Peace, it is
written, who is there that can disturb?
:cloud9: Amen Amanda!
Hi All, just finished having this discussion on another board, so not really up to debating it, but here are my thoughts. feel free to take what you can and leave the rest.
God bless.
Adam was created in sin , but was ignorant of this fact.
Eze 28:15 Thou [wast] perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till'' iniquity'''[guilt] was found in thee.
This iniquity was always in Adam, but he did not know it.
Once Adam ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil ( the law )his iniquity was found out.
Genesis 1:26-27
26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. 27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
I know at first glance these two scriptures seem to indicate that Adam was created in the image and likeness of God.
But 1Co.15:35-51 shows us that this is not so.
There is a difference between what is said of Adam and what is said of Jesus Christ.
If Adam was in the image and likeness of God then Jesus Christ was not.
And if Jesus Christ was the image and likeness of God ( and He is ) then Adam cannot be said to be in Gods image and likeness also , for the scriptures make it very plain that there is a difference between the first man Adam and Jesus Christ.
Lets explore this a little further.
1 Corinthians 15:35-36
35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? 36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
In order for man to be quickened he must die first. This is the order of arrangement of God Himself. Even or Lord and saviour had to die before He took on His glorified body.
What is true of Him is also true of every man and this includes Adam. Until Adam died he could not be quickened unto life. That is to say until our old man dies , we cannot put on our heavenly glorified body.
1 Corinthians 15:37-38
37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain: 38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
Now here we see a change made in the grain that is sown. The grain is not the body which shall come forth , but is bare grain. Once the grain is planted in the earth ( dies) it springs up into life. Now some may grow up to be wheat or some other grain, for the bare grain is not the plant that shall be.
Adam ,like everyone else is bare grain at first. He had to die to be quickened unto life. For only in resurrection can one put on the incorruptible body.
This bare grain is the natural body ( old man ) that must die.
The scriptures then go on to show us that there is a difference in the bodies. For God gives it the body that pleases Him.
1 Corinthians 15:39-41
39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds. 40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. 41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
1 Corinthians 15:42-44
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
Now this natural body which Adam had and we also have is sown in corruption. For without resurrection our bodies are corrupt. In the resurrection our bodies are raised in incorruption. The natural body that Adam had and we also have is sown in dishonour , but raised in glory. Sown in weakness ,raised in power. Sown a natural body , raised a spiritual body. All these scriptures tell us that the natural body must come first ,then die to be raised a spiritual body. Only in resurrection is there a glorified body, therefore Adam had to die in order to put on a glorified body.
1 Corinthians 15:45-46
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. 46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
Now the first man Adam was MADE a living soul, the following scripture says that the living soul is natural, or a natural body as the preceding scripture states. And this is how Adam was fashioned. This is all in contrast to Jesus Christ which was made a life giving spirit.
Living soul is also translated living creature. Soul and creature both come from the same Hebrew word nephesh.
1 Corinthians 15:47-49
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. 48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
The scriptures go on to say the first man (Adam) is of the earth, earthy and as we have borne the image of the earthy ,which image Adam had, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. Now is the image that Adam bore that of a natural earthy body the image of God? No , this natural earthy body must die first in order to be resurrected, for only in resurrection are we given a heavenly body.
Now in conclusion Paul says
1 Corinthians 15:50-51
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
That is to say the life of the flesh ( that Adam and we have) cannot inherit the kingdom of God.
This life of the flesh must die first for corruption cannot inherit incorruption.
We must all be changed.
The bare grain (Adam) that was first planted, is not the body that shall be.
That which thou sowest is not quickened EXCEPT IT DIE.
Adam could not have had this incorruptible body , or he would not have been able to die.
That which is born of God CANNOT sin.
Colossians 1:18
18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
Jesus Christ is the firstborn from the dead , that in ALL things He might have the preeminence.
Jesus Christ must be first in ALL THINGS, so He must be the first made in the image of God.
Continued.........
Now lets look at this bare ( naked ) grain in Gen.
Genesis 2:25
25 And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.
This was before the law came into effect. They were both NAKED ,and were not ashamed.
Now think on this, before the law came into effect we were not aware that we were sinners, but once you have partaken from the tree of knowledge of good and evil ( the law ) your sins become known unto you.
This is exactly what this verse is speaking about.
Paul explains it like this.
Romans 7:7
7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
The next few verses will make this more plain.
Genesis 3:7
7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.
The law revealed their sins unto them.
Genesis 3:10-11
10 And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.
11 And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?
Adam was afraid because he was a sinner (naked) ,so he hid himself from God.
But what's God say ,Who told thee that thou wast a sinner ( naked )? Hast thou eaten from the tree (law ) whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?
As if to say you would not have known you were a sinner unless you ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil ( the law ).
Now I know you are probably thinking naked does not mean sin, so lets look at the word naked.
Naked comes from the Hebrew word arowm which means naked , bare.
Now arowm has an original sense (root word )aram meaning: subtility, crafty, prudent, beware, very.
1) to be subtle, be shrewd, be crafty, beware, take crafty counsel, be prudent
1a) (Qal) to be crafty, be subtle
1b) (Hiphil) to be crafty, be or become shrewd
Enhanced Strong's Lexicon
Now who else in Gen. is subtil?
Genesis 3:1
Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
The word subtil come from the exact same root word aram that naked comes from.
Why would Adam and the serpent in the garden have exactly the same nature?
Because the serpent in the garden is unregenerated man ( man without Christ in His life ) a gentile by nature.
So lets look more closely at the serpent.
GEN.3:1-7 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden.
Who is this serpent that is so subtil ( crafty , sly , shrewd ) and has the gift of speech?
Unregenerated man ( man without Christ in his life, gentile man ). Who else but man has the gift of speech , and can reason. You may say a parrot can talk but can it reason? Balaams (mod edit: donkey or rear end) spoke but it was God that opened her mouth NU.22:28 And the LORD opened the mouth of the (mod edit: donkey or rear end), and she said unto Balaam.
Nowhere is it said that God opened the mouth of the serpent. This serpent has the gift of speech and can still talk and reason today.
Now some have said that the serpent lost its gift of speech as part of its punishment , but nowhere in the bible does it say this. Therefore we must conclude that the serpent can still talk today.
Who else is this then but Unregenerated ( gentile )man.
GEN.3:14-16 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life. And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.
God puts enmity between the serpent and the woman , between the serpents seed and her seed. This is natural man ( Unregenerated man or gentile man ) ) and the spiritual man.
RO.8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Now this serpent some would have us believe has no hope but of eternal punishment , but this is the carnal man ( gentile man ) and can we say that he has no hope?
EP.2:11-22 speaks of the hope of all men Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.14For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; 15Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; 16And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: 17And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.18For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. 19Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;21In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 22In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.
There is another passage in the bible that shows that the serpent is man , it is found in NU.21:8-9 And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live. 9And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived.
This serpent of brass is a prophesy of Jesus Christ on the cross
JN.3:14-15 14And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
Now why would Christ be shown as a serpent?
We find the answer in RO.8:3 3For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Jesus bore the likeness of sinful flesh , the likeness of the serpent
, 21For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. 2CO.5:21.
This is the original state all mankind was created in.
Genesis 2:15-17
15 And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.
16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: 17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
What is this tree of knowledge of good and evil and how is it used in the process of making man into God image and likeness and what death is being spoken of here?
The law is the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
Two trees in the garden both a figure of the true.
Tree of life a figure of Jesus Christ our tree of life.
Tree of knowledge of good and evil a figure of the law.
There is no actual tree that gives life nor is there a actual tree that gives us knowledge.
The law or tree of knowledge was the commandment THOU SHALT NOT.
What is this tree that can bring death to man? Now we know that death comes because of sin RO.5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin. Therefore we can see that it is sin that brings death to man , but what brings us the knowledge of what sin is? The law. RO.3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. Therefore the tree of knowledge of good and evil is the law for by eating of the tree death entered into the world. Now is the knowledge of good and evil ( the law ) sin RO.7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
So we can see that the tree of knowledge of good and evil is the law, for it is only by way of the law that we have the knowledge of sin.
So what death is being spoken of here and how is it ( death ) used in making us into the image of God?
Man was already dying a natural death ( dying thou shalt die )
Now I know some will argue this interpretation of the scriptures , but Adam had a corruptible body , sown in corruption , raised in incorruption. That which is sown in corruption must die.
It is only in resurrection that one obtains the image and likeness of God , and lives forever.
So if it is not a natural death spoken of here what death is it talking about.
The death spoken of here is the death of our old man by the bringing in of the law.
This scripture is placing a death sentence upon Adam from the time he ate of the tree until he died.
Now if the tree of knowledge of good and evil is the law as I put forth above, the law must then carry with it a sentence of death. Let's look and see if it does. 2 Corinthians 3:6-7
6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life. 7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
You can see that the law was indeed a sentence of death to man.
But it was a sentence of death to our old man.
Now this law or death sentence had to come into effect , because the law is a ministration of death ( to our old man )and our schoolmaster that leads us to Christ.
Without the law Adam never would have come into the knowledge that he was a sinner.
I know some will argue that sin never entered into the world until after Adam ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. But that is just supposition and not what the scriptures state.
Romans 5:13
13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
This is not stating that there was no sin in the world , its stating that the sin was not imputed until the law came into effect.
And the law came into effect the moment Adam broke the commandment THOU SHALT NOT.
This tree of knowledge was a commandment unto life in God , but also a commandment of death to the old man.
It is this death that is spoken of in Gen.
For the law is a ministration of death unto us (our old man) and our schoolmaster that leads us to Christ.
This is why God placed two trees in the garden ( remember this is Gods garden, the Holy of holies) the schoolmaster to show us our sin ( tree of knowledge ) and the tree of life.
For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
This was why man was put out of the garden so he did not try to be perfect by way of the law.
For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.
From the time of Jesus' death the veil of the temple was rent in twain from top to bottom, the way into the Holy of Holies was again opened for mankind to come boldly before the throne of God. From the time Jesus died on the cross forward, man has had access to direct communion with God.
This is life, is life more abundant.
The veil that was rent in twain was the flesh. (old man) or (mans nature.)
Once the flesh ( old man ) dies or even begins to die ( I die daily) we have access back to direct communion with God.
Brother/sisters we stand right now in the same place Adam stood 6000 years ago and placed before us is the law and the tree of life.
We are living right now in the 6th day of creation Adam is us ( if you can receive it ) Jesus is called the second man, ever wonder why? It's because we are the first man.
When God originally created man He created him outside of the garden and placed him into the garden to make man into His image and likeness.
This is a process that man is still undergoing.
That bare naked grain the Adam was and we are must die in order to be made into the image and likeness of God.
Adam was created in a state of grace were sin was not imputed unto him.
Romans 5:13
13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Once Adam ate from the tree of knowledge ( the law ) the law came into play and sin was then imputed unto him.
The garden experience is not what mankind believes it to be, it is not about the fall of mankind , it is about how mankind is made into the image and likeness of God.
God bless
Quote from: laren on November 16, 2007, 04:30:39 AM...Could it be that preterist thinking is correct, and the generation of those "in Adam" saw I Corinth 15 come true, and that from then on, the finished work of the cross really has changed all, that all are born "in Christ".
I'm a long time (since mid 90's) believer in the fulfilled view of prophecy in which the Preterist camp resides. For the most part i view the above statement is held by many there.
I also lean toward what was stated by Laren in another note: are we "becoming aware/awaking up" to who we already are (glorious).
And with SeekerSA's ; "So our Adamic nature is learned from our culture bias."
Hey jchpiper, since you are adding books to your list here are two you might enjoy:
"Happiness Now" by Robert Holden Ph.D. and "Biology of Belief" by Bruce H. Lipton. These go along with much of what you've "rambled" on. : )
Blessings,
Thom
Quote from: Jotham on November 21, 2007, 01:09:10 AM
Hey jchpiper, since you are adding books to your list here are two you might enjoy:
"Happiness Now" by Robert Holden Ph.D. and "Biology of Belief" by Bruce H. Lipton. These go along with much of what you've "rambled" on. : )
Blessings,
Thom
Thanks Thom...."Biology of Belief" is already on my list. :winkgrin:
Here is a site folks might be interested in:
http://www.heartmath.org/research/science-of-the-heart/soh_20.html
I first read of Heartmath's research in an educational article and then in a health research article. I later "spontaneously" ran across one of their books and got hooked, so to speak. Many thoughts I have on this subject... :HeartThrob:
I don't want to appear to be exalting scientific research over God, but to me it magnifies God. I thrill at learning how cells communicate, how we communicate, how life communicates, how God has designed us so intricately and complex yet with simplicity....quite an amazing paradox. I get teary-eyed just typing about it. :mblush:
I'm enjoying reading all these responses....chewy stuff.
Thanks Amanda for the topic!
pneuma
Good stuff :thumbsup:
I'll have to say that I don't get the 'learning of the Adamic nature' thing at all. For me, being a carnally minded idiot was (from the beginning) just as natural as breathing.
The 100 percent 'failure rate' of humans must say something about predisposition, right? There is an innocence about newborns, but I still maintain that we are all born with our souls firmly caught in the snare.
- b
Ditto Byron, and to prove it my Dad often recounted to me how I was born standing up and talking back. :laughing7:
.
Quote from: Hennessey on November 21, 2007, 01:08:41 PM
Ditto Byron, and to prove it my Dad often recounted to me how I was born standing up and talking back. :laughing7:
That's all the proof anyone should need. Do you hear this folks? Jack was born in sin and conceived in iniquity. Does anyone here think they are better than Jack?
I rest my case :winkgrin:
- b
Quote from: firstborn888 on November 21, 2007, 01:41:31 PM
Quote from: Hennessey on November 21, 2007, 01:08:41 PM
Ditto Byron, and to prove it my Dad often recounted to me how I was born standing up and talking back. :laughing7:
That's all the proof anyone should need. Do you hear this folks? Jack was born in sin and conceived in iniquity. Does anyone here think they are better than Jack?
I rest my case :winkgrin:
- b
:mrflo: :mrflo: :mrflo: :mrflo:
:happygrin: :grin: :Sparkletooth:
That's all the proof anyone should need. Do you hear this folks? Jack was born in sin and conceived in iniquity. Does anyone here think they are better than Jack?
I rest my case
Sounds Good to me Byron :icon_flower:
Blessings
Taffy
Son of a motherless goat!
I didn't know I was going to be your poster boy for "born in iniquity" :first:
Quote from: Hennessey on November 21, 2007, 07:13:43 PM
Son of a motherless goat!
I didn't know I was going to be your poster boy for "born in iniquity" :first:
(http://soleilimg1.free.fr/gifs/personnages/divers/diver066.gif)
Quote from: firstborn888 on November 21, 2007, 01:03:04 PM
I'll have to say that I don't get the 'learning of the Adamic nature' thing at all. For me, being a carnally minded idiot was (from the beginning) just as natural as breathing.
The 100 percent 'failure rate' of humans must say something about predisposition, right? There is an innocence about newborns, but I still maintain that we are all born with our souls firmly caught in the snare.
- b
:thumbsup:
Quote from: Hennessey on November 21, 2007, 01:08:41 PM
Ditto Byron, and to prove it my Dad often recounted to me how I was born standing up and talking back. :laughing7:
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:laughing7: Hi Jack I see you have not lost your sense of humor.
Quote from: jchpiper on November 21, 2007, 06:44:03 AM...I don't want to appear to be exalting scientific research over God, but to me it magnifies God. I thrill at learning how cells communicate, how we communicate, how life communicates, how God has designed us so intricately and complex yet with simplicity....quite an amazing paradox...
I'm with you on this. My view is that science can be very pro-Creator. I can't open up a book on the human body, health, astronomy, physics, anthropology, etc (and i'm usually reading a half dozen books on various topics concurrently), and not see God's beauty in it.
Happy reading,
Thom
Hennessey thats what I'm saying the world teaches us who we are - your dad "told" you you were born standing up and talking back.
If we look at the advertising industry we can see that they try and make us feel bad about ourselves and that they then have the product to fix us.
Quote from: Hennessey on November 21, 2007, 07:13:43 PM
Son of a motherless goat!
I didn't know I was going to be your poster boy for "born in iniquity" :first:
:laugh: :rolllol: :mrflo: Thank you Jack......I laughed out loud on that one........ :thumbsup:
Well then Card you'll probably like this one too. :happygrin:
There was time my son was getting all kinds of grief from his best friend's mom. My boy was polite and sensitive but a little insecure as an young adolescent so I knew we had to make up a plan to relieve him of the unwarranted hurt this malcontent woman was causing him.
I finally came up with the perfect plan. I told my son that this woman would probably not change her attitude toward him but we could make the abuse a little easier to swallow. I told him that next time he was over there at his friend's house, he should go into the laundry room and while no one is looking take this woman's steam iron into the bathroom and pee in it.
My kids always came to me with their problems because they knew we would always find a solution and usually one that was going to be fun. :laughing7:
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:cloud9: OMG, LOL.....there musta never been a dry eye at your house........from laughing till you cried........that was bad........ :mshock:
Quote from: Hennessey on November 21, 2007, 10:24:07 PM
Well then Card you'll probably like this one too. :happygrin:
There was time my son was getting all kinds of grief from his best friend's mom. My boy was polite and sensitive but a little insecure as an young adolescent so I knew we had to make up a plan to relieve him of the unwarranted hurt this malcontent woman was causing him.
I finally came up with the perfect plan. I told my son that this woman would probably not change her attitude toward him but we could make the abuse a little easier to swallow. I told him that next time he was over there at his friend's house, he should go into the laundry room and while no one is looking take this woman's steam iron into the bathroom and pee in it.
My kids always came to me with their problems because they knew we would always find a solution and usually one that was going to be fun. :laughing7:
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You need to repent :mlaugh:
You are very creative Jack I cannot imagine how you came up with that one. I wonder if your dad saw some of himself standing there perhaps lol that is usually how it is huh?
hmmm just envisioning Jack sitting around by himself with this devious look on his face thinking of things like peeing in a steam iron!
:mrflo:
QuoteYou are very creative Jack I cannot imagine how you came up with that one. I wonder if your dad saw some of himself standing there perhaps lol that is usually how it is huh?
You know Kept my Dad was the very opposite of me. He was a hard task master and if there was ever a dispute he would always take the other's position. It effected my view of God for decades until I was healed of that view.
Anyway I learned to get back at Spike (Dad" name :laughing7:) early. He always liked to bake two layer cakes on Sunday when he was home from sea duty as a Naval Officer. I learned at about seven or or eight years old that if you slammed the oven door real hard the cakes would fall. So whenever my dad was away from the kitchen I would get my younger sister and we would sneak in and slam the oven door. It was always a "to die for moment" when my sister and I would see my Dad's dejection and confusion as he glazed his fallen cakes with frosting. The bonus was the smaller cakes took less icing and that meant we had more to lick from the bowl and the beaters. :laughing7:
Jack
:grin:
ah so your powers of reasoning worked really well as a child too. lol Your a hoot. Man its good that we didnt grow up around each other or who knows what could have happened.
kept
:cloud9: OMGosh, Jack, you were a riot! Poor dad, LOL......
Quote from: amanda on November 21, 2007, 10:13:07 PM
Hennessey thats what I'm saying the world teaches us who we are - your dad "told" you you were born standing up and talking back.
If we look at the advertising industry we can see that they try and make us feel bad about ourselves and that they then have the product to fix us.
I tend to believe Spike's account of Jack's birth. :happy3:
Jack, we have identical upbringings!
There was a show on the other night about a study on serveral sets of identical twins who were seperated from birth and didn't know the other existed until they were adults. The results showed that even though they were raised in different families, enviroments, schools and religions that their views and temperments - even the way they spoke (!) and phrased words were practically identical.
Again I'm not saying that the enviroment has no effect, but I am saying that the enviroment is a complication, not the root cause of self identity issues. I've seen kids raised with nothing but encouraging words and love (from birth) go into terrible identity crises' in their teen years and even become suicidal. How can this be?
It's because the problem resides within. Hearing and believing lies about yourself just complicates an existing issue: We need re-birth to be free from the first Adam's nature and get in touch with ''our true nature"
- b