Law/laws/sabbath (split from OSAS)

[FreeAtLast]

the author of Hebrews was not suggesting that he was a  in a fallen state. The word us does not always have to mean that the person is referring to himself personally. That is a huge linguistic mistake that you are making. a basketball coach that says come on guys let's hustle doesn't mean that he himself is not hustling.However it is possible to fall from grace and have Christ avail nothing. It's not that I believe that the author of Hebrews had done that but neither do I believe that the word us must mean that he referred to himself personally.

For unto  US  was the gospel preached as well as unto them

was the gospel preached to paul // of course  the  US is all inclusive in the context of Hebrews 4   all the believers including paul himself  :dsunny: :dsunny:

so according to your view--paul had fallen from grace and needed to enter that rest.   :dsunny: :dsunny:

[Seth]

I think he missed reading one of my posts or you would've said that. a collective noun does not mean that the person is using it as a personal reference.

[FreeAtLast]

I think he missed reading one of my posts or you would've said that. a collective noun does not mean that the person is using it as a personal reference.

answer this---was the gospel preached unto paul ???

if you answer yes--which you have no other choice but to do  :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:

then you must agree that the uses in Hebrews 4 of  US are all inclusive--including the writer--cant get away from it

if the first us was all of them then all the US in Hebrews 4 are referring unto the same    Paul included

then you have the problem of trying to figure out that paul was fallen from grace according to your view and needed to enter that rest again  :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:

[Seth]

I think he missed reading one of my posts or you would've said that. a collective noun does not mean that the person is using it as a personal reference.

answer this---was the gospel preached unto paul ???

if you answer yes--which you have no other choice but to do  :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:

then you must agree that the uses in Hebrews 4 of  US are all inclusive--including the writer--cant get away from it

if the first us was all of them then all the US in Hebrews 4 are referring unto the same    Paul included

then you have the problem of trying to figure out that paul was fallen from grace according to your view and needed to enter that rest again  :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:

That's actually not true because the author of Hebrews is referring to the collective. The Gospel was preached to the COLLECTIVE, but within the COLLECTIVE, not everyone profited because some were faultering in faith (Hebrews 4:1,3 where only the part of the collective who believed had entered into his rest.). So the author of Hebrews encourages THE COLLECTIVE to enter into the rest. The whole collective has not entered into rest if some are left out.

Some in the collective profited and some did not through unbelief, so, like a basketball coach he in encourages the collective to enter into the rest.

You have a basic misunderstanding of how collective pronouns work. A Basketball coach can say "we lost the game" and include himself. Then in the next sentence, he could say, "we need to hustle more," and in that instance he is not referring personally to himself.

By the way, are you aware that the term "us" doesn't appear in the Greek in these verses?

[Graph1159]

Hi everyone,
This summer, my attention has drifted from UR, and instead I've spent a lot of time thinking about the subject of the Law and what it means to be free from the Law. Here are my present thoughts:

I don't believe that we are free from some OT laws, but bound to others. Nor do I exactly think that every individual OT law has a spiritual fulfillment. Rather, I think that OT Law vs. NT Grace is about two frameworks, two mentalities, for thinking about obedience. The Law framework is about do's and don't. The focus is on what we do to either be justified or condemned. The grace framework is about what Christ has done to set us free from the bondage of sin. Our part, under grace, is to become what God has made us to be (Romans Chapters 5-8). But what does that look like? What are the characteristics of those who have been chosen and justified by God in this age? The purpose of the New Testament's moral admonitions is to answer those questions. Some of the New Testament exhortations (such as avoidance of adultery, theft, etc.) match OT laws. However, those orders for believers are not given because they were in the OT Law (since we're free from the Law - Romans Ch. 6-7). They are given to describe the kind of life that God has made us to live, and those who are called and justified by God seek to grow into that kind of life to see their destiny come to fruition.

Some of the laws given to Israel in the OT were given because they represent eternal virtues, but others were given because of the unique situation of Israel in that time in history. Some regulations that were essential for a holy life back then, may not be anymore. In our present age, the New Testament says that honoring our parents is decidedly a virtue of those who are saved (1 Tim. 5:8), but adherence to the old Sabbath laws does not have to be, as Paul writes,

"Therefore do not let anyone condemn you in matters of food and drink or of observing festivals, new moons, or sabbaths. These are only a shadow of what is to come, but the substance belongs to Christ." (Col. 2:17).

Law and grace are really just two paradigms to reach the same end, which is a life reflecting God's righteousness revealed in Christ. In the OT era, Law was the mentality that God ordained for people to relate to Him, but now a new paradigm of grace has been revealed. What gets people in trouble is when they boast in their obedience to certain laws (or get self-righteous about simply believing in Jesus) and then try to use grace to excuse them from the laws they don't want to follow. I think the passages of the NT which call believers' salvation into question are addressing this syndrome.

What do you think about this?
Samuel

[eaglesway]

As I see it, in Hebrews 1-4 the writer is not speaking of initial justification or falling from grace. He is speaking of continuing in grace into rest- walking in the Spirit, entering the finished work. When, in our soul, we really hear the words, "It is finished", we no longer strive- as they did in the wilderness due to unbelief. The writer is encouraging us, "Today, if you hear His voice, harden not your heart"- walking with God is the promise of the new covenant. "I will be there God and they will be My people and I will live among them and walk among them".  He that has entered the rest of God has "ceased from His own works, as God did". Faith- abiding, resting faith is the finished work in us. "Cease striving, and kno that I am God".

The ones who strove wandered until "every unbelieving member perished".
Jesus said to Peter- "When you are converted strengthen the brethren". He was not speaking of salvatiobn. He had already said to Peter, "You are all clean because of the word I have spoken to you" and "Man has not revealed this unto you, but the Father".

As James puts it

13 Who among you is wise and understanding? Let him show by his good behavior his deeds in the gentleness of wisdom. 14 But if you have bitter jealousy and selfish ambition in your heart, do not be arrogant and so lie against the truth. 15 This wisdom is not that which comes down from above, but is earthly, natural, demonic. 16 For where jealousy and selfish ambition exist, there is disorder and every evil thing. 17 But the wisdom from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, reasonable, full of mercy and good fruits, unwavering, without hypocrisy. 18 And the seed whose fruit is righteousness is sown in peace by those who make peace.

Peter's "conversion" was out of mixture(selfish ambition and bitter jealousy Peter: They may all forsake you but I never will!") into the "gentleness of wisdom"(Jesus:"Peter, do you agape me?  Peter: "Thou knowest Lord")

Conversion is about brokeness, humility, wisdom and faith. It is about crossing over the Jordan(when the last unbelieving member perishes- a little leaven leavens the whole lump). It is about becoming mature(entrust your souls to those who by reason of experience have their senses exercised to know the difference between good and evil). It is about becoming a servant, a trustworthy steward of the oracles of God, and receiving the keys to the kingdom as a son in the Father's house.

Hebrews is about the believers transition into priesthood and understanding the nature of that priesthood, as an intercessor and as a faithful steward- and not falling back into the law or the flesh after having "tasted of the heavenly gift, the  good word of God and the powers of the age to come."

That is why In Hebrews 4, as the writer is transitioning into the qualification of a priest in Heb 5(he can deal gently with the ignorant and misguided, since he himself also is beset with weakness; ..... 4 And no one takes the honor upon himself) he interjects this intense presentation of the scrutiny within which all those who serve in the tabernacle must abide.

He 4:10 For the one who has entered His rest has himself also rested from his works, as God did from His. 11 Therefore let us be diligent to enter that rest, so that no one will fall, through following the same example of disobedience. 12 For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart. 13 And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are open and laid bare to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do.

[Seth]

Looking at the translation in Hebrews 4 though, this is a summary:

Verse 1: There is a group (the church) who should enter into God's rest in fear, while the promise stands, lest anyone in the group is "falling short." He will compare those people to the Jews who have heard the gospel and also did not believe.

Verse 2: The group (the church) has had the Gospel preached to it just as the Jews (they). But the Jews who heard the message did not profit because they did not believe.

verse 3: Only the group which believes enters into God's rest (but it's possible that some might be faultering)

verses 4-10: He mentions the literal sabbath day, and the holy land in reference to God's rest (which is Christ), and he long ago swore that the Jews would not enter his rest due to their disobedience and lacking faith, and therefore, it remains for some Jews to enter it today. God has fixed today to hear and not harden the hearts.

verse 11: Therefore the group (the church) should hastily enter God's rest, so that nobody among them will fall through being disobedient

In other words the author of Hebrews doesn't know if anyone has "fallen short." So, in case anyone has, he wants the whole group to hastily enter into God's rest through obedience and faithfulness, while it is still called today, so that nobody among them will fail through disobedience.

BTW, the Old Testament view of believing was to become faithful (enumah) to enter into faithfulness. One can fall short of faithfulness.

[eaglesway]

Hebrews 4 contains several rich veins of gold running deep into heart of the Rock.

[FreeAtLast]

I think he missed reading one of my posts or you would've said that. a collective noun does not mean that the person is using it as a personal reference.

answer this---was the gospel preached unto paul ???

if you answer yes--which you have no other choice but to do  :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:

then you must agree that the uses in Hebrews 4 of  US are all inclusive--including the writer--cant get away from it

if the first us was all of them then all the US in Hebrews 4 are referring unto the same    Paul included

then you have the problem of trying to figure out that paul was fallen from grace according to your view and needed to enter that rest again  :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:

That's actually not true because the author of Hebrews is referring to the collective. The Gospel was preached to the COLLECTIVE, but within the COLLECTIVE, not everyone profited because some were faultering in faith (Hebrews 4:1,3 where only the part of the collective who believed had entered into his rest.). So the author of Hebrews encourages THE COLLECTIVE to enter into the rest. The whole collective has not entered into rest if some are left out.

Some in the collective profited and some did not through unbelief, so, like a basketball coach he in encourages the collective to enter into the rest.

You have a basic misunderstanding of how collective pronouns work. A Basketball coach can say "we lost the game" and include himself. Then in the next sentence, he could say, "we need to hustle more," and in that instance he is not referring personally to himself.

By the way, are you aware that the term "us" doesn't appear in the Greek in these verses?

the actual case is this---

the gospel was preached unto US( was the gospel preached unto paul ??) then paul was including himself in the US.

would paul tell  everyone else to do something and he himself did not do it ??

Let US enter(Paul included himself in that US)

Beside he still is talking to believers in the US

He makes the distinction of US having the gospel preached unto US and  (them) to them also was it preached

Paul was either in the US or the THEM---which is it ?? I think it  is US

still the question remains that you cant rightly answer  according to your view---did paul fall from grace and have to re-enter that rest ???

[Seth]

I think he missed reading one of my posts or you would've said that. a collective noun does not mean that the person is using it as a personal reference.

answer this---was the gospel preached unto paul ???

if you answer yes--which you have no other choice but to do  :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:

then you must agree that the uses in Hebrews 4 of  US are all inclusive--including the writer--cant get away from it

if the first us was all of them then all the US in Hebrews 4 are referring unto the same    Paul included

then you have the problem of trying to figure out that paul was fallen from grace according to your view and needed to enter that rest again  :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:

That's actually not true because the author of Hebrews is referring to the collective. The Gospel was preached to the COLLECTIVE, but within the COLLECTIVE, not everyone profited because some were faultering in faith (Hebrews 4:1,3 where only the part of the collective who believed had entered into his rest.). So the author of Hebrews encourages THE COLLECTIVE to enter into the rest. The whole collective has not entered into rest if some are left out.

Some in the collective profited and some did not through unbelief, so, like a basketball coach he in encourages the collective to enter into the rest.

You have a basic misunderstanding of how collective pronouns work. A Basketball coach can say "we lost the game" and include himself. Then in the next sentence, he could say, "we need to hustle more," and in that instance he is not referring personally to himself.

By the way, are you aware that the term "us" doesn't appear in the Greek in these verses?

the actual case is this---

the gospel was preached unto US( was the gospel preached unto paul ??) then paul was including himself in the US.

would paul tell  everyone else to do something and he himself did not do it ??

Let US enter(Paul included himself in that US)

Beside he still is talking to believers in the US

He makes the distinction of US having the gospel preached unto US and  (them) to them also was it preached

Paul was either in the US or the THEM---which is it ?? I think it  is US

still the question remains that you cant rightly answer  according to your view---did paul fall from grace and have to re-enter that rest ???

Sorry brother, the word "us" doesn't appear in the verse in the Greek.

[FreeAtLast]

I think he missed reading one of my posts or you would've said that. a collective noun does not mean that the person is using it as a personal reference.

answer this---was the gospel preached unto paul ???

if you answer yes--which you have no other choice but to do  :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:

then you must agree that the uses in Hebrews 4 of  US are all inclusive--including the writer--cant get away from it

if the first us was all of them then all the US in Hebrews 4 are referring unto the same    Paul included

then you have the problem of trying to figure out that paul was fallen from grace according to your view and needed to enter that rest again  :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:

That's actually not true because the author of Hebrews is referring to the collective. The Gospel was preached to the COLLECTIVE, but within the COLLECTIVE, not everyone profited because some were faultering in faith (Hebrews 4:1,3 where only the part of the collective who believed had entered into his rest.). So the author of Hebrews encourages THE COLLECTIVE to enter into the rest. The whole collective has not entered into rest if some are left out.

Some in the collective profited and some did not through unbelief, so, like a basketball coach he in encourages the collective to enter into the rest.

You have a basic misunderstanding of how collective pronouns work. A Basketball coach can say "we lost the game" and include himself. Then in the next sentence, he could say, "we need to hustle more," and in that instance he is not referring personally to himself.

By the way, are you aware that the term "us" doesn't appear in the Greek in these verses?

the actual case is this---

the gospel was preached unto US( was the gospel preached unto paul ??) then paul was including himself in the US.

would paul tell  everyone else to do something and he himself did not do it ??

Let US enter(Paul included himself in that US)

Beside he still is talking to believers in the US

He makes the distinction of US having the gospel preached unto US and  (them) to them also was it preached

Paul was either in the US or the THEM---which is it ?? I think it  is US

still the question remains that you cant rightly answer  according to your view---did paul fall from grace and have to re-enter that rest ???

also again he said that WE who have believed do enter into that rest ???

is paul in the WE here---I think he is

Just as unto US---Paul is in the US as he is in the WE

:dsunny: :dsunny:

[Seth]

Those who have believed is not the entire collective. Some within the group could be falling short. The author of Hebrews wants the whole collective to.enter.

[FreeAtLast]

I think he missed reading one of my posts or you would've said that. a collective noun does not mean that the person is using it as a personal reference.

answer this---was the gospel preached unto paul ???

if you answer yes--which you have no other choice but to do  :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:

then you must agree that the uses in Hebrews 4 of  US are all inclusive--including the writer--cant get away from it

if the first us was all of them then all the US in Hebrews 4 are referring unto the same    Paul included

then you have the problem of trying to figure out that paul was fallen from grace according to your view and needed to enter that rest again  :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:

That's actually not true because the author of Hebrews is referring to the collective. The Gospel was preached to the COLLECTIVE, but within the COLLECTIVE, not everyone profited because some were faultering in faith (Hebrews 4:1,3 where only the part of the collective who believed had entered into his rest.). So the author of Hebrews encourages THE COLLECTIVE to enter into the rest. The whole collective has not entered into rest if some are left out.

Some in the collective profited and some did not through unbelief, so, like a basketball coach he in encourages the collective to enter into the rest.

You have a basic misunderstanding of how collective pronouns work. A Basketball coach can say "we lost the game" and include himself. Then in the next sentence, he could say, "we need to hustle more," and in that instance he is not referring personally to himself.

By the way, are you aware that the term "us" doesn't appear in the Greek in these verses?

the actual case is this---

the gospel was preached unto US( was the gospel preached unto paul ??) then paul was including himself in the US.

would paul tell  everyone else to do something and he himself did not do it ??

Let US enter(Paul included himself in that US)

Beside he still is talking to believers in the US

He makes the distinction of US having the gospel preached unto US and  (them) to them also was it preached

Paul was either in the US or the THEM---which is it ?? I think it  is US

still the question remains that you cant rightly answer  according to your view---did paul fall from grace and have to re-enter that rest ???

Sorry brother, the word "us" doesn't appear in the verse in the Greek.

doesn't matter if it does or not---was paul a believer ??? that right there includes him in the  WE and US NO matter what the greek workd is behind it  :HeartThrob:

Paul said WE that have believed(believers)do enter that rest
Paul said let the believers speedily enter into that rest

was paul a believer-- he was a believer and he was included in the text  :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:

[Seth]

doesn't matter if it does or not---was paul a believer ??? that right there includes him in the  WE and US NO matter what the greek workd is behind it  :HeartThrob:

Paul said WE that have believed(believers)do enter that rest
Paul said let the believers speedily enter into that rest

was paul a believer-- he was a believer and he was included in the text  :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:

The author of Hebrews says that some in his group could be falling short. Therefore, within the larger whole, some are NOT falling short, and some COULD BE falling short. We who believe (that's a qualifier) have entered in. But those who have fallen short, not so much.

Therefore, let the whole collective enter so that none within the collective are fallen short through disobedience.

[FreeAtLast]

Those who have believed is not the entire collective. Some within the group could be falling short. The author of Hebrews wants the whole collective to.enter.

have to totally disagree with that statement

there are 2 groups of people here in this text---the WE and the THEM--are you gonna say that we doesn't mean the believers also ??

the collective--the WE that have believed
THEM--those who didn't believe


let the collective(those who have believed)speedily enter that rest
THEM--did not enter because of unbelief

still the root was THEM polluting the Sabbaths and despising his Statues

Collective(those that believed)not falling after the same example of THEM's unbelief

no matter how much you try---it still is referring unto the 7th day Sabbath in context   :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:

[Seth]

Those who have believed is not the entire collective. Some within the group could be falling short. The author of Hebrews wants the whole collective to.enter.

have to totally disagree with that statement

there are 2 groups of people here in this text---the WE and the THEM--are you gonna say that we doesn't mean the believers also ??

You haven't read the text carefully. There is also a "you." Check verse 1.

[Seth]

There is a whole group

Then there is a "you" in the group that may have fallen short.

Then there is a "they" referring to the Jews.

The author of Hebrews is saying he wants the whole group to enter in....so that nobody within the group falls short by way of disobedience.

[FreeAtLast]

Those who have believed is not the entire collective. Some within the group could be falling short. The author of Hebrews wants the whole collective to.enter.

have to totally disagree with that statement

there are 2 groups of people here in this text---the WE and the THEM--are you gonna say that we doesn't mean the believers also ??

You haven't read the text carefully. There is also a "you." Check verse 1.

have you read verse 14 of Hebrews 4 ???

WE have a Great High Priest
let US(collective)hold fast OUR profession of faith

Brother ---the collective ALL have Faith in the context of this chapter--do the unbelievers have faith ???
The US(collective)is referring unto the Believers(the collective all had faith)

still brother--I commend you for your efforts--but they are of no use

it still is Collective(All Believers)    THEM(all unbelievers)   :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:

[sheila]

SOS 1;7,8  Tell me,you whom I love,where you graze your flock and where you Rest your sheep at

  mid-day.   Why should I be like a veiled woman beside the flock of your'e friends.

   mid-day..the place of highest light....Christ alone is worthy to open the seals on the 'word of God'

    why should I be like a veiled woman[those under law[Moses veil  veiled hearts] 2 Cor 4;3


     interesting aside

[FreeAtLast]

SOS 1;7,8  Tell me,you whom I love,where you graze your flock and where you Rest your sheep at

  mid-day.   Why should I be like a veiled woman beside the flock of your'e friends.

   mid-day..the place of highest light....Christ alone is worthy to open the seals on the 'word of God'

    why should I be like a veiled woman[those under law[Moses veil  veiled hearts] 2 Cor 4;3


     interesting aside

thanks be unto my  Great High priest that im under Grace   :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:

[Seth]

Those who have believed is not the entire collective. Some within the group could be falling short. The author of Hebrews wants the whole collective to.enter.

have to totally disagree with that statement

there are 2 groups of people here in this text---the WE and the THEM--are you gonna say that we doesn't mean the believers also ??

You haven't read the text carefully. There is also a "you." Check verse 1.

have you read verse 14 of Hebrews 4 ???

WE have a Great High Priest
let US(collective)hold fast OUR profession of faith

You are proving my point. The very fact that he says "let us hold fast" is an encouragement to those of the group "you" who may have fallen short. The whole group has a high priest, but some of "you" might not be holding fast to our profession of faith.

The encouragement is for those within the group who are faltering, and he is encouraging them not to faultier. He wants the whole group to enter in.

[FreeAtLast]

Those who have believed is not the entire collective. Some within the group could be falling short. The author of Hebrews wants the whole collective to.enter.

have to totally disagree with that statement

there are 2 groups of people here in this text---the WE and the THEM--are you gonna say that we doesn't mean the believers also ??

You haven't read the text carefully. There is also a "you." Check verse 1.

have you read verse 14 of Hebrews 4 ???

WE have a Great High Priest
let US(collective)hold fast OUR profession of faith

Brother ---the collective ALL have Faith in the context of this chapter--do the unbelievers have faith ???
The US(collective)is referring unto the Believers(the collective all had faith)

still brother--I commend you for your efforts--but they are of no use

it still is Collective(All Believers)    THEM(all unbelievers)   :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:

also again Brother   :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:

Hebrews 6:1

Let US(collective-all believers) go on to perfection--can the unbelievers go on to perfection ???
and this will WE(all believers) do

[Seth]

Those who have believed is not the entire collective. Some within the group could be falling short. The author of Hebrews wants the whole collective to.enter.

have to totally disagree with that statement

there are 2 groups of people here in this text---the WE and the THEM--are you gonna say that we doesn't mean the believers also ??

You haven't read the text carefully. There is also a "you." Check verse 1.

have you read verse 14 of Hebrews 4 ???

WE have a Great High Priest
let US(collective)hold fast OUR profession of faith

Brother ---the collective ALL have Faith in the context of this chapter--do the unbelievers have faith ???
The US(collective)is referring unto the Believers(the collective all had faith)

still brother--I commend you for your efforts--but they are of no use

it still is Collective(All Believers)    THEM(all unbelievers)   :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:

also again Brother   :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:

Hebrews 6:1

Let US(collective-all believers) go on to perfection--can the unbelievers go on to perfection ???
and this will WE(all believers) do

Some within the group can indeed fall short of going on to perfection because (if you keep reading the 6th chapter) some within the group can turn away.

[eaglesway]

some within the group have already fallen short - there is falling away and there is falling short.

11 Concerning him we have much to say, and it is hard to explain, since you have become dull of hearing. 12 For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you have need again for someone to teach you the elementary principles of the oracles of God, and you have come to need milk and not solid food. 13 For everyone who partakes only of milk is not accustomed to the word of righteousness, for he is an infant. 14 But solid food is for the mature, who because of practice have their senses trained to discern good and evil.

[Seth]

my point was to say that after believing according to paul that did enter that rest

Yet, some of them may have "fallen short"....of "entering in." Check verse 1. Those people are referred to as "you." That's what you haven't been able to see yet.

Within the group there are those who have not fallen short, and some which may have fallen short.

The author of Hebrews is encouraging the group to enter in, so that nobody within the group will have fallen short. (check verse 11, the whole verse)