Tentmaker Forum

Much is spoken of about the spirit or a spirit.....we all have our thoughts, imaginations, and ideas...my question to all is...
WHAT IS SPIRIT.....what is it that we who believe in the Lord Jesus Christ His resurrection and His saving Blood shed upon a tree....what is spirit? There is much spoken of this "spirit," but what is it really?
There is much spoken of a "spirtual body" but as far as my search has gone, those two words use in unison  only found in.......
1Co 15:44  it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body; there is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body;

Other than this verse, are there any other referenences to implicate, as religion teaches, that man will have a "spiritual" body when he dies or before?
I see no evidence that man gets a spiritual body when he dies, man goes to dust, and his "spirit" returns to the one who gave it. The dead know not anything. Look up the scriptures in the Bible.

Just what is it that man supposes, considers, expects that a "spiritual" will be? I say that we have no idea, unless we really begin to consider that SPIRIT is a substance and that substance is the very belief IN the WORDS that Jesus spoke, believing that the words that He spoke are life and that what we are now in but a passing thing without real substance. Spirit is a realm, it is a place, it is home....but man fears or considers all that he sees and feels as a reallity...it is not! Orthodox religion has held us so far back in ignorance, that any thought outside of the "norm" is crazy. I say look a Martin Luther and the others who were "LIT BY HIS WORD" to push forward. I will stop here and say this IT AINT THRU TV!

Good question. There seems to be a lots of different kinds of spirits spoken in the bible. I guess the definition might be something that has life. e.g holy spirit, unclean spirit, words of Jesus, spiritual body, angels are they not ministering spirits, who knoweth the thought's of man but the spirit that is in him.

I see that there is "spirit" as in the general sense, life, breath, being.

Then there is "a spirit". This seems to me to a spirit of specific identity, the specific spirit of a man or a specific disembodied spirit.

Then there is The Spirit as in the Spirit of God or the Holy Spirit which is in specific all infusing being and energy of God that acts as an executor of His will and the manifestation of His life in all creation.

And then there is the Holy Spirit which I see as the specific life of God that is involved in the life of His Word among His people and the infilling power of the resurrected Christ whithin those who have received the "promise of the Spirit through faith".
I believe the Holy Spirit is manifested in different "embodiments" or "divisions" such as the divisions of light passing through a prism, and we are that prism, and the colors are the 7 spirits of God, such as the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of God, the spirit of power and might etc, there is a list somewhere- the 7 eyes in one stone.

I think the Spirit of Christ is the one stone spirit within the spirit of God. That all sounds too complicated and I think it is much more organic bu these are only my thoughts on the subject, added for the purpose of further discussion.

There is the "spirit that now works in the sons of disobedience" which is a fog of chaos and a veil over the "consciouness" which is in the heart of man, i.e. "the eyes of the heart" and is what you get to when you "divide asunder soul and spirit".
The gospel is "Let there be light!" and "Awake o sleeper" and "Opening the blind eyes". peace, John

I understand the breath of life in Gen.2:7 is spirit... breath of life... is spirit(breathing or breath)

I do not understand or reason that the Spirit of Gen.1:2 is that breath of life, or the (breath) spirit of 
Ecc 12:7  ..... And the spirit returneth to God who gave it. that would be the breath of life that
made man a living soul.

There is one Spirit...Eph 4:3  being diligent to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of the peace; Eph 4:4  one body and one Spirit, according as also ye were called in one hope of your calling;

PEACE G1515 eirēnē  Probably from a primary verb εἴρω eirō (to join); peace (literally or figuratively); by implication prosperity: - one, peace, quietness, rest, + set at one again.

UNITY G1775 henotēs   oneness, that is, (figuratively) unanimity: - unity.

As one has said "endeavoring to KEEP the UNITY of the SPIRIT" the Spirit is One, He is not many He is One, we, those who hear must come to that ONE SPIRIT PEACE....
Isa 9:6  For a Child hath been born to us, A Son hath been given to us, And the princely power is on his shoulder, And He doth call his name Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Father of Eternity, Prince(H8269 the Head) of Peace.
Spirit is ONE. 
1Jn 3:2  beloved, now, children of God are we, and it was not yet manifested what we shall be, and we have known that if he may be manifested, like him we shall be, because we shall see him as he is; and that I contend is SPIRIT.

Joh 6:63 The Spirit is that which is vivifying. The flesh is not benefiting anything. The declarations which I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.
I believe that the substance of Spirit, is FAITH  Luk 18:8  I say to you, that He will execute the justice to them quickly; but the Son of Man having come, shall he find the faith upon the earth?'


Heb 11:1

(ASV)  Now faith is assurance of things hoped for, a conviction of things not seen.

(CLV) Now faith is an assumption of what is being expected, a conviction concerning matters which are not being observed;"

(KJV)  Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

(Rotherham)  But faith is, of things hoped for, a confidence, of facts, a conviction, when they are not seen;

(RYLT-NT)  And faith is of things hoped for a confidence, of matters not seen a conviction,

(WNT)  Now faith is a well-grounded assurance of that for which we hope, and a conviction of the reality of things which we do not see.



(YLT)  And faith is of things hoped for a confidence, of matters not seen a conviction,

I know that thoughts on this are as vaccant as mine, yet so much is spoken of "spiritual bodies" today in the legions of religion that ......my question is what is a spiritual body?" Other than 1Co 15:44  it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body; there is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body;
I find no teaching or ministering on this subject by Paul, yet it seems to me that all of christianity offers this premis to its believers. What is a "spiritual body?"
I  know that my speak is different, its different because the offering of orthodox religion, traditional religion, denominational religion all speak the same, so I must ask, just what is a spirtual body? I know that I will be changed in the twinkling of an eye, but is it not our assumption that it is a "spiritual body?" Do I believe in the Spirit? His Spirit? The answer is yes, it is my expectation, it is  my hope, it is what He promised...but do I have any idea as to what it will be.....NO!

I believe it is time we, all of those who believe,begin to awaken to the truth that what nominal and orthodox religion has offered and pushed down our gulliable throats is mans good wishes and good intentions and it so far from the heart and mind of the Creator and Savior has in store for those who believe and overcome.

Paul didn't talk about it that I know of, other than to say "it is raised a spiritual body".

I don't know, but do you think it could be something like Jesus had after the crucifixion and his resurrection?  He was seen by people, ate food, but could apparently pass through walls and "transport" from one place to another.  Could it be something so "foreign" to us, we really can't get a good handle on it, as none of us have (probably) seen one?   :dontknow:

Or do you think it's something else, brother micah?

The thought that we still believe and accept that as you said " but could apparently pass through walls," we find HIM of more apparition than whole and complete says alot about what we know or belive we know. The Jesus I know and believe in did not "pass through walls," HE WAS THERE IN THEIR MIDST. There was not a passing through, He IS I AM, He is, was, and always HERE! Paul had seen the Lord in all His brightness, we have only been told of that brightness. I believe that we, human beings have absolutly no idea of what we are talking about when we talk about "spiritual bodies," we think of ghost and the paranormal things, movies, and folk lore. Spirit is very real and it has substance, but it is faith Heb 11:1  And faith is of things hoped for a confidence, of matters not seen a conviction,
Heb 11:2  for in this were the elders testified of;
Heb 11:3  by faith we understand the ages to have been prepared by a saying of God, in regard to the things seen not having come out of things appearing;

I will confess that what words I speak are weak for understanding, but I know this one thing as long as we stay where the tent stakes of the last revealing and revival of His Word was given, we will be just as left off as all religion to this point and time.
Spirit is made of  of faith, faith is the substance that will reveal spirit, and spirit will be embraced by His Spirit..the Overcomer, His Sons manifested. Glory and Glory again!

Let me see if I can get my head around what you may be saying.  Are you saying Jesus didn't "appear" to them, He was already there?  Already in the room where they were gathered (in the John 20 description of him suddenly appearing), as a spirit, and they just weren't aware of him?

I looked at the John 20 passage and some discussion, and it seems some say he "passed through walls" (as I guess I'd heard and believed) while others say no, they just noticed Him and they were startled.  Do you think He was 1) always there, 2) they just became aware of Him, 3) somehow He made Himself aware to them? And if so, how?  by taking on a physical appearance, a manifestation they could recognize?   Or none of these or all them?  lol

So many things to ponder.  :)

And bottom line, you're driving at some deeper meaning, right?  That we're not aware of His presence as we should be for example?

I think when the texts says, "by faith he made the worlds" proves that he is apart from the substance of faith.

I think this is more plausable, as I cannot see God, abiding his time, by becoming an oak tree, but rather his power his glory, the work of his hands is manifested into the oak tree. As another scripture says the earth is the work of his hands and the earth is his footstool. So in a sense he is everywhere because his works are everywhere, but here is the limits of my understanding as what he means by I AM, that is debatable and I am not sure if my theory fits the equation 100%, I think though that one half of the equation makes sense to me, i.e that God doesn't crawl around under stones, unless he enjoys weightlifting (connies, proverbs).

Quote from: jabcat on March 06, 2011, 10:09:27 AM
Let me see if I can get my head around what you may be saying.  Are you saying Jesus didn't "appear" to them, He was already there?  Already in the room where they were gathered (in the John 20 description of him suddenly appearing), as a spirit, and they just weren't aware of him?

I looked at the John 20 passage and some discussion, and it seems some say he "passed through walls" (as I guess I'd heard and believed) while others say no, they just noticed Him and they were startled.  Do you think He was 1) always there, 2) they just became aware of Him, 3) somehow He made Himself aware to them? And if so, how?  by taking on a physical appearance, a manifestation they could recognize?   Or none of these or all them?  lol

So many things to ponder.  :)

And bottom line, you're driving at some deeper meaning, right?  That we're not aware of His presence as we should be for example?

"Do you think He was 1) always there, 2) they just became aware of Him," Both of these.
Mat 18:20  for where there are two or three gathered together--to my name, there am I in the midst of them.'
Heb 13:5  "........ for He hath said, `No, I will not leave, no, nor forsake thee,' "

Yes something deeper in the sense that we have not begun to understand and see Spirit past being something we cant see and  just embrace it as such. I dont know myself, but I have come to believe that Spirit is substance and it is by faith that Spirit is seen and can be touched as Thomas did.

Again we read in Luke 4:29-30  "Luk 4:30  and he, having gone through the midst of them, went away."
Also Joh 8:58  Jesus said to them, `Verily, verily, I say to you, Before Abraham's coming--I am;'
I Am is SPIRIT (Jo. 4:24 God is Spirit)
Joh 8:59  they took up, therefore, stones that they may cast at him, but Jesus hid himself, and went forth out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

I do not see faith with these folk, so He was not seen, and was gone not even there.

The following snippets in (purple) were spoken to a group of believers in England ...by different holy angelic human spirits - through a woman sitting in a wheel chair.
It sometimes included - David Livingstone, Kate Naish, Florence Nightingale. General William Booth and others.
Between
the 1920's and the 1950's there were about  1500 messages given to this group.  This group, were believers in UR.
================================================================================

- "But you each one can do likewise, for are there not the sick in other planes, in other worlds, waiting for your love-vibration, waiting for the compassion that is stored within?
They are lepers in every sense of the word. The garment in which they take their way in the dark planes is terrible to behold; loathsome, horrifying to contact, in your language, are their conditions, for the stench of iniquity overpowers the untrained.
*******
- "Such as these are waiting for you; for you in your quiet moments to send out healing power. Oh, pray to the Father that you may have the courage and the faith and the will to be a missionary during the sleep-state among such as these, healing their wounds, grappling with their chains, forgiving them as they have sinned against you a thousand, thousand times, winning them at last by love. And there is no healing power that can touch the soul but love. Then love on, love on!
******
"You see your work lies clearly before you, you see how easy it is to be a medium in the God sense; you realize that after all it was not essential that you should have psychic gifts.
The gifts of the Spirit you have, you have already the power to heal the tortured bodies of souls in the dark planes; and you have also the power to heal the sick on earth by the sending out of the love-vibrations, asking the great Healer of all Life to use you, if He wills.

http://christianspiritualism.org/messages/cleanleper.htm
and
http://www.christianspiritualism.org/messages/zodiactable.htm

=============================================================================================
The following happened to me – Allen Steinhauer, Eau Claire, Wis. 

Jan 18, 2011, 7PM –
--  After reading the above in (purple)....I decided to pray for a spirit of God's choosing - if He so willed it.
I asked the Father to help me minister to a specific lost soul of His choosing - that now exists in a darkened twilight plane.
-- As I began to wait on the Lord, I sensed I was greatly hindered. Strangely, I found I couldn't even hold my head up and my thoughts seemed very confusing.

-- After a few moments of this - I asked Christ the Master for insight.  It was revealed to me that a hindering spirit was trying to rob me of a victory and that it was greatly restricting me from advancing.
-- So I began to quietly and gently talk to that spirit.
I began by telling this soul/ spirit – that it was my fellow human spirit...that had moved on to the World of spirits.

-- I told the spirit that I loved them and forgave them for the confusing thoughts. 
I explained the plan of salvation...(i.e.)who the Heavenly Father was.  Who the Son of God, the Prince of Peace, the Savior of the world was, and what the purpose was for Jesus the Christ, the Savior to come to earth and what Son of God wants to do for it.
-- I explained to that spirit what my desire was.  To see that this hindering spirit, would be set free, changed, transformed into a new creation, set free by God's only begotten Son...Jesus the Christ. 
I began by asking the Father that His will be done and for power to be given to break the chains that bound this one, to open the prison doors so that this beloved darken soul may escape it's prison.

-- I told the spirit it needed to confess it's past faults and further believe and genuinely seek the Master Christ , the Great Life-Bringer, because the Savior of the world would surely accept him/her.
I pointed to a little speck of light ahead, which is the Glory of God and informed it to keep its focus on the light.

--I then began to push, shove, pull, whatever I could do to help that one to begin to move towards the light.
After much prayer and words of encouragement, I sensed a breakthrough that this one was moving forward, but oh so slowly, in the right direction. I got underneath and pushed this one along.  It was difficult work and but its movement was slow and deliberate. I felt encouraged within myself that all was going to be O.K. for this one.

--But then, I suddenly began to experience great doubts and lack of faith and confusion in my mind ...about what had just previously transpired.
These negative feelings stopped me in my tracks.
--After a few moments....I realized that this was a different spirit trying to obstruct and block the work that had just been done.
I immediately began to pray for this doubting and confusing spirit, and starting at the beginning...began explaining the plan of salvation, just as I had with the first one.
After many moments, I again began to experience a slow  but sure victory for this one also.

--Then all of a sudden, I felt utterly overwhelmed with darkness - and that a great struggle from the underworld had begun. 
I did not see any dark spirits, but somehow perceived that numerous evil spirits (dark human spirits) had gathered around this last spirit – not only to try and hinder its progress, but to bring havoc and destruction upon it.
Not knowing what to do
...I immediately cried out to the Father for help, because we were in immediate danger and distress and needed a great power to help us.

--Instantly, I experienced a tremendous rush of ( almost explosive)  power that enveloped both I and that spirit.
The power was so great I was literally thrown backwards into my chair.
I felt to be almost over whelmed by an incredible sense of power.
--It seemed as though, even the air I was breathing was seething with great power.
As strange as this may seem...it was as though I could taste it and smell the power.
But interestingly....there was not a sound or any noise.
I sensed that there was like an instant hedge built around both of us.
I believe that numerous holy angels (holy saints) had come to our aid.
--When the darkness struggle was gone,
I knew that God had prevailed...for both that spirit...and I.
Whether it was a hedge around us or that the darkness was simply driven back...I am not sure of.
After this relief was acknowledge...I experienced a time of rejoicing, laughter, weeping for joy and hand clapping.

--I then saw a long white cord coming down from above - began to wrap around this last spirit, like a cocoon, from the bottom upward towards the top.  The wrapping process took a lot of time.  To the point that I almost became impatient.
--Because of the length of the time it took the white cord - to wrap around this spirit, I tried more than once to concentrate, very deliberately -  to get a clear view and vision of the substance of this spirit – but, as strange as it sounds, it was like there was no definite shape to it.
It was something that constantly changed structure, form and shape.

--The only way I could describe it...would be like a liquid mirror, constantly moving, twisting, winding, and changing from long to short to wide and then bending every which way.  There were definite shades of blackness and grays and then flashes of white mixed throughout it.
--I think the only thing I could say with surety about a spirit, is that they are not stagnant, but very active and constantly changing shape.  They are utterly unearthed like.


The following pic's is my feeble attempt to show in a visual way what I had seen.


http://home.comcast.net/~fractalsbykeith/pgs/frac238.htm

This first pic - has way to much more color in it – but it does closely define
the likeness and image of the twilight spirit that I witnessed. 
What I observed was much....much darker than this.


http://home.comcast.net/~fractalsbykeith/pgs/frac228.htm

This second pic - illustrates the overall scene I saw – though in reality,
it was a great deal darker than this.
Remember...this spirit was still in the twilight plane....a little light, but mostly darkness.


--A further thought...
Perhaps, because my own spirit was inexperienced with this phenomenon  - 
I was not yet be able to wholly  distinguish a fully dark spirit,... nor be able to gaze on a brilliant holy angelic spirit. 
--This is my concept or impression of that experience......accordingly, I understand that someone else seeing the very same scene....may have an entirely different perceptive.

--I sensed that the wrapping of the white cord...around that spirit that it was needed for its protection, because it still existed in a dangerous area.
I then told that newly released spirit that I would come to it during my sleep tonight, where further encouragement would be provided and we could get better acquainted.

--I now understand that this kind of work might be done as a regular duty for the every believer.
There is virtually no excuse for a child of the Light to not work - to set as many captives free as possible.
I now know that my mission world is no longer – limited to the physical life of human souls on this physical earth...but that I / we all can and must move forward /advance for the liberty of all souls - everywhere.

--I also understand that no one can work without divine aid in the dark areas, and no one can work in the darkest regions except in a group...and even these holy ones must be covered with a veil...lest the darken spirits freak out.
Remember Moses,... he had to be veiled because of the Glory of God.
--Spiritual progress is ever upwards;  very slowly though it may be, and much personal effort is required.  The Master has helped and continues to do so but, our own personal effort is also essential.

--There are numerous  brothers and sisters in darkness....and will remain in darkness until, fellow children of the Light, aid them in coming into the Light of God.  This deliverance / reconciliation ministry may involve billions and billions of lost souls...and each one needs special individual attention.
--When Jesus said the fields are white unto harvest...he truly meant it.
Oh, to be a connoisseur of heavenly Spiritual truths.

Deuteronomy 18^9-14 (1901 American Standard)
[9] When thou art come into the land which Jehovah thy God giveth thee, thou shalt not learn to do after the abominations of those nations. [10] There shall not be found with thee any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, one that useth divination, one that practiseth augury, or an enchanter, or a sorcerer, [11] or a charmer, or a consulter with a familiar spirit, or a wizard, or a necromancer. [12] For whosoever doeth these things is an abomination unto Jehovah: and because of these abominations Jehovah thy God doth drive them out from before thee. [13] Thou shalt be perfect with Jehovah thy God. [14] For these nations, that thou shalt dispossess, hearken unto them that practise augury, and unto diviners; but as for thee, Jehovah thy God hath not suffered thee so to do.

Deuteronomy 18^9-14 (New American Standard)
[9] "When you enter the land which the LORD your God gives you, you shall not learn to imitate the detestable things of those nations. [10] "There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, one who uses divination, one who practices witchcraft, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer, [11] or one who casts a spell, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead. [12] "For whoever does these things is detestable to the LORD; and because of these detestable things the LORD your God will drive them out before you. [13] "You shall be blameless before the LORD your God. [14] "For those nations, which you shall dispossess, listen to those who practice witchcraft and to diviners, but as for you, the LORD your God has not allowed you to do so.

Deuteronomy 18^9-14 (Young's Literal)
[9] `When thou art coming in unto the land which Jehovah thy God is giving to thee, thou dost not learn to do according to the abominations of those nations: [10] there is not found in thee one causing his son and his daughter to pass over into fire, a user of divinations, an observer of clouds, and an enchanter, and a sorcerer, [11] and a charmer, and one asking at a familiar spirit, and a wizard, and one seeking unto the dead. [12] `For the abomination of Jehovah [is] every one doing these, and because of these abominations is Jehovah thy God dispossessing them from thy presence. [13] Perfect thou art with Jehovah thy God, [14] for these nations whom thou art possessing, unto observers of clouds, and unto diviners, do hearken; and thou -- not so hath Jehovah thy God suffered thee.

I'm a supporter of my brother AJ, but something about those quotes from those folks was disturbing to me (my spirit?).  I'm not complaining, but commenting that it would sure take more thought and revelation from the Lord for me to ever "go there".  The scrip you quote is relevant reF.

I agree with reFORMer and the verses in Deut.  :bigGrin: :thumbsup:

I do believe that what AJ brought forth with those quotes were real and probabaly happened, but I believe that other than allowing the incidences to happen, Elohiem, Jehovah Lord had nothing to do with it. And He says so in Deut. 18:9
I do not believe in spiritualizing, or spiritualism I believe in spirit and I believe in the Holy Spirit; I believe there is a spiritual body, I do not know if I believe in spiritual bodies.  But this is just me.

It sounds like a good idea to pray for lost spirits, but I think the word says to not pray for the dead. Looking at what the woman experienced it seems a risky practice, that seems to provokes dark forces.
There are plenty to pray for in the land of the living, perhaps in future when christ rules, we might pray for lost spirits, something to do with the lake of fire perhaps  :dontknow:

Greetings --- reFORMer, jabcat, micah7:9, thinktank:

First - I want to say I appreciate each of your kind responses.
I do realize that this could be a volatile topic.
And many of the feelings that you are expressing....I had myself - when I first began to read this material.

My purpose in this response – is simple to give another viewpoint.
It is not my place to convince anyone -  that's the job of the Holy Spirit.
Nevertheless – we are exhorted to express the hope that lies within us.

I am familiar with the verses that were given - and that was my first inclination that seemed against this view also.
But...if that was all that the Sacred Record had to say on the subject, then that would be the end of the subject.

Acts 17:11
Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.

I knew almost nothing, zilch, about the spirit world...thus, I decided to search further to see if this NEW / PERSPECTIVE could be true.


I would now like to attempt to show by the Scriptures that some men that die may be angels....and that men/angels may come back to visit the Saints of God with permission from God - to instruct, bring  messages, warnings, and hope.
I realize that preachers have told it's congregation for hundreds of years that angels are a completely separate creation other than human beings.


The following is a piece of a parable taught from our Lord.  If it were not possible for a dead person to return to earth and instruct those still living on earth...for the benefit of the hearer, then why would Christ even bring it up at all?
Luke 16:30-31
And he said, No, father Abraham: but if one went to them from the dead, they will repent.
And he said to him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

It is my (understanding/interpretation) of the above verses that the rich man or his brothers were walking in darkness and none were in a position to hear any message that may be given by Lazarus...even if he came back from the dead.

Does that mean that no one is in a position to hear anyone who came back from the DEAD?...No.
Our Lord came back from the dead....some responded positively and some negatively.


In John 11 – we read of another Lazarus being raised from the dead, some believed...and then  in  John 12:9-11 others wanted to kill him.


Now consider this:
An angel came to John...this angel stated that he was:
(a) a fellowservant, (b) of the brethren of the prophets, (c) one of those who kept the sayings of God.
And told John that he was to worship God...not (an angel/a man).

Rev 22:8-9 –
8 And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.
9 Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.

Rev 19:9-10
9 Then the angel said to me, "Write this: Blessed are those who are invited to the wedding supper of the Lamb!" And he added, "These are the true words of God."
10 At this I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, "Don't do that! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers and sisters who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For it is the Spirit of prophecy who bears testimony to Jesus."

From the above verses – we see (2) different places that speak of angels – who were formerly men on earth.


Here we see that Jesus doesn't come himself....but sends angels to testify unto the churches.
Rev 22:6 -
16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

Again – Jesus Christ sends his angels to the churches:
Rev 2:1- and following:
"the angel of the church in Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum, Thyatira ,  Sardis, Philadelphia, Laodicea, and etc,:

Lastly:
One should also realize that not all of God's truth, plan, and purpose have been revealed yet....through the written word.
Case in Point:
Daniel 9:24 -
"Seventy 'sevens' are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy.
Daniel 12:9 –
And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.
And
Rev 10:4 –
4And when the seven thunders had uttered their voices, I was about to write: and I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered, and write them not.

There is revelation / understanding that is yet to be revealed.  And how is God going to reveal this info?
Yup...by angels....who were men that had previously lived before on the earth as men.

I have more to say on this subject...but I'll close for now.
New time...I'd like to show that some verses show that Christ returns it's
with the 'saints' and then other verses show that he returns with 'angels'.

Peace, AJ.

Cool stuff, AJ.

There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
-- Hamlet Act 1, scene 5



14And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

15To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

--Jude 1



MATTHEW 16:27 (Jesus)
27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

I  just wonder what it is you are atempting to bring forth? You believe in "angels" (which are messengers) and that humans who expire come back as communicators to the living? Is that correct?
For me you sound mysterious, but not real. I KNOW that God expresses Himself to those who have ears to hear.
I do not believe that Jehovah is one who would even think about capitalizing on the feats and foolishness of those who attempt expressing themselves in bu--crap.
What is it you are trying to say and bring forth?

I'd ask that we strive to stay in the "realm" (pun intended) of "kind replies".   :mblush:

I agree with you AJ concerning angels (at least in some cases) as men who have happened upon the resurrection (if that is what you mean to say.)  But, those who are not raised, who are in death, we are not to accept communication between us and them.  Right after my dad died I experienced a numinous presence I discerned as the spirit of my dad, only without sin.  What it was, I believe, is the personal "recording angel" that is intermeshed with us from conception to death, and perhaps in some senses, beyond.  Everyone has at least one assigned, if not two or three, besides other angels assigned to us at different events and periods in our lives.  This experience was a blessing to me, making it easier for me to forgive him with an understanding heart.

In answer to the OP I would commend something I intend to repeat doing.  I learned it from some Chinese Christians associated with their "Local Church" movement.  There used to be available colored pencils that were one color on one end and another color on the other.  One was blue and red.  Another was yellow and green.  Perhaps there was a third.  I don't remember.  But, these were convenient to carry, had the benefit of not bleeding through the paper, and were long lasting for the price.  At any rate, in the books of 1st and 2nd Corinthians, specially 2nd, while considering the context of each occurrence, I used the color blue, for the heaven is blue, and colored every occurrence of the word "spirit" in any form:  spirit, spirits, and spiritual.  Because in the first letter to the Corinthians the apostle decries their carnality and lack of being spiritual, we can suppose in these two letters there is a ministry of the word to correct their defect.  Some have commented that 2 Corinthians is the most spiritual book in the entire Bible.  Other than perhaps "Revelation," and perhaps "The Song of Songs," I would agree.

I would add this observation.  Several places in Scripture there is the statement that, "There is only one spirit."  For about nine months, whenever I encountered a certain friend of mine (which was every day) he would immediately say those words to me:  "There is only one spirit," usually loudly and with vigor.  For a while in the beginning I would answer it was obvious there exists the Spirit of God, and spirits good and evil, as well as human spirits; that the context was God's Spirit in union with us.  It is not meant that a bunch of spirits should inhabit us.  After a while what he said as soon as he saw me would just irk me and I would ignore it.  Finally, after his faithfulness for nine months, it was revealed to me how that statement was a greater revelation of reality than I had known.  Additionally, it is written, "There is only one body."  This also is true.  Everything in the physical realm can be inhabited by spirit.  Even our own personal body is constantly discarding material in the physical and incorporating new matter.  It depends on the physical stuff surrounding us in our environment for it's own continuance.  I have gone forth in spirit and experienced a lake, for instance, as one would experience his own body.  In Phillipians it tells of Jesus descending that He might ascend to fill all things with Himself.  The glory that is coming includes the entire creation as well as our embodiment.  "Put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ!"



James

Daniel 10

1In the third year of Cyrus king of Persia a thing was revealed unto Daniel, whose name was called Belteshazzar; and the thing was true, but the time appointed was long: and he understood the thing, and had understanding of the vision.

2In those days I Daniel was mourning three full weeks.

3I ate no pleasant bread, neither came flesh nor wine in my mouth, neither did I anoint myself at all, till three whole weeks were fulfilled.

4And in the four and twentieth day of the first month, as I was by the side of the great river, which is Hiddekel;

5Then I lifted up mine eyes, and looked, and behold a certain man clothed in linen, whose loins were girded with fine gold of Uphaz:

6His body also was like the beryl, and his face as the appearance of lightning, and his eyes as lamps of fire, and his arms and his feet like in colour to polished brass, and the voice of his words like the voice of a multitude.

7And I Daniel alone saw the vision: for the men that were with me saw not the vision; but a great quaking fell upon them, so that they fled to hide themselves.

8Therefore I was left alone, and saw this great vision, and there remained no strength in me: for my comeliness was turned in me into corruption, and I retained no strength.

9Yet heard I the voice of his words: and when I heard the voice of his words, then was I in a deep sleep on my face, and my face toward the ground.

10And, behold, an hand touched me, which set me upon my knees and upon the palms of my hands.

11And he said unto me, O Daniel, a man greatly beloved, understand the words that I speak unto thee, and stand upright: for unto thee am I now sent. And when he had spoken this word unto me, I stood trembling.

12Then said he unto me, Fear not, Daniel: for from the first day that thou didst set thine heart to understand, and to chasten thyself before thy God, thy words were heard, and I am come for thy words.

13But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.

14Now I am come to make thee understand what shall befall thy people in the latter days: for yet the vision is for many days.

15And when he had spoken such words unto me, I set my face toward the ground, and I became dumb.

16And, behold, one like the similitude of the sons of men touched my lips: then I opened my mouth, and spake, and said unto him that stood before me, O my lord, by the vision my sorrows are turned upon me, and I have retained no strength.

17For how can the servant of this my lord talk with this my lord? for as for me, straightway there remained no strength in me, neither is there breath left in me.

18Then there came again and touched me one like the appearance of a man, and he strengthened me,

19And said, O man greatly beloved, fear not: peace be unto thee, be strong, yea, be strong. And when he had spoken unto me, I was strengthened, and said, Let my lord speak; for thou hast strengthened me.

20Then said he, Knowest thou wherefore I come unto thee? and now will I return to fight with the prince of Persia: and when I am gone forth, lo, the prince of Grecia shall come.

21But I will shew thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth: and there is none that holdeth with me in these things, but Michael your prince.

And what and thus?

Quote from: micah7:9 on March 09, 2011, 05:57:24 AM
And what and thus?

It's an encounter with the supernatural--clearly a world of spirits.

And, there are lots of things going on.

Supernatural that is your word? And you are saying that we encounter the "supernatural?" And that there are alot of "things" goin on?
I have to say that is not an answer far from what I expected.
So you think or know or feel or something that the SPIRIT is a supernatural encounter, is that right? Well Glory!

Greetings again,
Because of the nature of this topic and the amount of questions that this subject may generate ....I cannot possibly answer all question in one setting.
Please bear with me...we all can/should learn from one another. 
I am working through this myself. 
I am now trying to set a premise....a ground work.
I will get to your q's as soon as I can.

O.K.  I'll try to address this verse first:

Deuteronomy 189-14 (1901 American Standard)
[9] When thou art come into the land which Jehovah thy God giveth thee, thou shalt not learn to do after the abominations of those nations. [10] There shall not be found with thee any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, one that useth divination, one that practiseth augury, or an enchanter, or a sorcerer, [11] or a charmer, or a consulter with a familiar spirit, or a wizard, or a necromancer. [12] For whosoever doeth these things is an abomination unto Jehovah: and because of these abominations Jehovah thy God doth drive them out from before thee. [13] Thou shalt be perfect with Jehovah t
hy God. [14] For these nations, that thou shalt dispossess, hearken unto them that practise augury, and unto diviners; but as for thee, Jehovah thy God hath not suffered thee so to do.

Deuteronomy 189-14 (New American Standard)
[9] "When you enter the land which the LORD your God gives you, you shall not learn to imitate the detestable things of those nations. [10] "There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, one who uses divination, one who practices witchcraft, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer, [11] or one who casts a spell, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead. [12] "For whoever does these things is detestable to the LORD; and because of these detestable things the LORD your God will drive them out before you. [13] "You shall be blameless before the LORD your God. [14] "For those nations, which you shall dispossess, listen to those who practice witchcraft and to diviners, but as for you, the LORD your God has not allowed you to do so.

Deuteronomy 189-14 (Young's Literal)
[9] `When thou art coming in unto the land which Jehovah thy God is giving to thee, thou dost not learn to do according to the abominations of those nations: [10] there is not found in thee one causing his son and his daughter to pass over into fire, a user of divinations, an observer of clouds, and an enchanter, and a sorcerer, [11] and a charmer, and one asking at a familiar spirit, and a wizard, and one seeking unto the dead. [12] `For the abomination of Jehovah [is] every one doing these, and because of these abominations is Jehovah thy God dispossessing them from thy presence. [13] Perfect thou art with Jehovah thy God, [14] for these nations whom thou art possessing, unto observers of clouds, and unto diviners, do hearken; and thou -- not so hath Jehovah thy God suffered thee.


This O.T. verse is very plain.
It is an abomination unto God to 'call up the dead'.
The question that needs to be addressed is...what is the motive?

Didn't the Lord Jesus Christ – call up the dead when he spoke unto Lazarus and raised him from the grave?
So was this work of Christ an abomination?
I tell you plainly:
Neither the work of Christ - nor what I did was an abomination.  We were not practicing divination, witchcraft, familiar spirits, and wizardry.  We are not charmers, necromancers or enchanters.
If I am to be labeled as an abomination....then so must Christ Jesus.

There is a world of difference- between trying to help a lost soul/spirit who is in darkness unto the light of God or raising the dead.... then to be a witch who only works in dark realms.



Back to the issue I said I would address last time:
The following verses are all declaring the very same event.

In Matt 16:27, 2 Thess 1:7, Christ coming is with angels messengers.
In 1 Thess 3:13, Jude 1:14,  Christ's coming with the holy saints.
In Matt 25:31, Mark 8:38, Luke 9:26, Christ's coming is with what is called both the holy saints and angel messengers.
In Rev 19:14, Christ's coming is with armies which are in heaven.

Does this prove without a doubt -  that saints and angels and armies in heaven are the same thing....maybe, maybe not.

Matthew 16:27 (KJV)
For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels (Gr - aggelos = angel messenger); and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
The above verse uses 'angel messenger'.

Matthew 25:31 (KJV)
When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy ( Gr- hagios = holy saints) angels (Gr- aggelos =  angel messenger) with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
The above verse uses both 'holy saint' and 'angel messenger ' to describe the same living beings.

Mark 8:38 (KJV)
Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy ( Gr- hagios = holy saints)angels.(Gr- aggelos =  angel messenger).
The above verse uses both 'holy saint' and 'angel messenger ' to describe the same living beings.

Luke 9:26 (KJV)
For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father's, and of the holy ( Gr- hagios = holy saints)angels.(Gr- aggelos =  angel messenger)
The above verse uses both 'holy saint' and 'angel messenger ' to describe the same living beings.

2 Thessalonians 1:7 (KJV)
And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels. (Gr- aggelos =  angel messenger)
The above verse uses 'angel messenger'.

1 Thessalonians 3:13 (KJV)
To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints. ( Gr- hagios = holy saints)
The above verse uses ' holy saint'.

Jude 1:14 (KJV)
And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints. ( Gr- hagios = holy saints)
The above verse uses ' holy saint'.

Revelation 19:14 (KJV)
And the armies (Gr-strateuma = body of troops, army)   which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

Quote from: micah7:9 on March 09, 2011, 06:14:53 AM
Supernatural that is your word? And you are saying that we encounter the "supernatural?" And that there are alot of "things" goin on?
I have to say that is not an answer far from what I expected.
So you think or know or feel or something that the SPIRIT is a supernatural encounter, is that right? Well Glory!

Supernatural is a fine word. 

We wrestle...against spiritual wickedness in high places.[Eph 6:12]

"spiritual"

G4152
πνευματικός
pneumatikos
phyoo-mat-ik-os'
From G4151; non-carnal, that is, (humanly) ethereal (as opposed to gross), or (daemoniacally) a spirit (concretely), or (divinely) supernatural, regenerate, religious: - spiritual. Compare G5591.

Just what did you accomplish by showing me a word in Strongs that may or may not have anything to do with my question? I have a Strongs and a Youngs and neither can find the word "supernatural" in the context of the Bible.  Supernatural is a fine word, and yes Eph.6:12 we do wrestle against spiritual wickedness in high places, do you have any idea what that means?

My question is "Just what is Spirit." Should we believe in Jesus Christ and His saving blood then we must work in the spirit and not in this world. The truth that we work in the world is evident. We have numerous religions, denominations, sects, beliefs which keep the entire christian religious community at odds. Why? I believe that those who know and hear the Spirit, stall, because we think and believe that the Spirit is invisible. We dont see because we dont truelly believe, we just have our belief, what ever denomination, sect. We are hobbled to the earthy for we have been taught that the heavenly is somewhere other that within and among us. We are afraid to believe in Jesus and that we are above all that is below, WE ARE A NEW CREATURE but we live in fear. I say Glory!

QuoteWe are hobbled to the earthy for we have been taught that the heavenly is somewhere other that within and among us. We are afraid to believe in Jesus and that we are above all that is below, WE ARE A NEW CREATURE but we live in fear. I say Glory!

I agree with everything you just said, Micah.

But, I showed you the word 'pneumatikos' because I believe it is referring to spiritual beings.

I also believe these spiritual beings are involved in things for good or evil.  Ephesians 6 is talking about evil spiritual beings that we are to wrestle [vibrate] against.  But it's interesting that one of the definitions is 'human ethereal,' implying that we are also spiritual beings.

"ethereal"


•aeriform: characterized by lightness and insubstantiality; as impalpable or intangible as air; "figures light and aeriform come unlooked for and melt away"- Thomas Carlyle; "aerial fancies"; "an airy apparition"; "physical rather than ethereal forms"
•of or containing or dissolved in ether; "ethereal solution"
•celestial: of heaven or the spirit; "celestial peace"; "ethereal melodies"; "the supernal happiness of a quiet death"


First definition 'aeriform.'--•resembling air or having the form of air

I know you'll never agree we have celestial, ethereal, spirit bodies--but it's something that I believe.  Right now, in this aeon,  Satan has the power over the 'air.'

Ephesians 2:2
in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience—

I saw a good movie about this :Ink.

Luke 16:30-31
And he said, No, father Abraham: but if one went to them from the dead, they will repent.
And he said to him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

It is my (understanding/interpretation) of the above verses that the rich man or his brothers were walking in darkness and none were in a position to hear any message that may be given by Lazarus...even if he came back from the dead.

Does that mean that no one is in a position to hear anyone who came back from the DEAD?...No.
Our Lord came back from the dead....some responded positively and some negatively.


In John 11 – we read of another Lazarus being raised from the dead, some believed...and then  in  John 12:9-11 others wanted to kill him.
AJ


That's a great find AJ, never noticed that before. Lazarus was sent back from the dead and people did belive on Jesus because of his testimony and the cults wanted to kill Lazarus because of this.



There is revelation / understanding that is yet to be revealed.  And how is God going to reveal this info?
Yup...by angels....who were men that had previously lived before on the earth as men.

I have more to say on this subject...but I'll close for now.
New time...I'd like to show that some verses show that Christ returns it's
with the 'saints' and then other verses show that he returns with 'angels'.

Peace, AJ.


I hate this idea at first, but I remember reading a book called conversation with God. God explains that human spirts and angels are sent by him to minister to believers. I remember once feeling down and a pretty woman appeared next to my bed and gave me encouragment to resist temptation, I did not react much as I was feeling depressed and so just though, oh that was interesting.
I think it was a person, rather than an angel, as I have also seen an angel and there is a different colour quality, the angels are bright and seem to glow in the dark, but this woman was more like a low quality hologram, not fuzzy but not a strong colour.

Quote from: TTGod explains that human spirts and angels are sent by him to minister to believers.

14 Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?

--Heb 1

Quote from: AJ on March 08, 2011, 05:44:39 AM
...spoken to a group of believers in England ...by different holy angelic human spirits - through a woman sitting in a wheel chair.
It sometimes included - David Livingstone, Kate Naish, Florence Nightingale. General William Booth and others.

This is classic consulting with familiar spirits and necromancy.  In Hitler's day they called it "incarnating."  These days it's "channeling."

Conversing with spirits, doubly so if they impersonate the dead, is nowhere near the same thing as actually raising people from the dead:  spirit, soul and body.  Jesus says for those who happen upon the resurrection they are  as the the angels.  This is not disembodied spirits, whether on their own or representing the dead.  It is sin to deal with the latter and to deal with spirits in various degrees of manifestation we must discern on a case by case situation.  In Deuteronomy God explains why "no other god (elohim) shall be in you."  He is jealous and wants you for Himself.  Why not use tea leaves and tarot cards?  It is because God wants to fill you with His own Spirit, and, "The Spirit of prophecy is the testimony to Jesus." 

Quote from: reFORMer on March 11, 2011, 04:42:17 AM

Quote from: AJ on March 08, 2011, 05:44:39 AM
...spoken to a group of believers in England ...by different holy angelic human spirits - through a woman sitting in a wheel chair.
It sometimes included - David Livingstone, Kate Naish, Florence Nightingale. General William Booth and others.

This is classic consulting with familiar spirits and necromancy.  In Hitler's day they called it "incarnating."  These days it's "channeling."

Conversing with spirits, doubly so if they impersonate the dead, is nowhere near the same thing as actually raising people from the dead:  spirit, soul and body.  Jesus says for those who happen upon the resurrection they are  as the the angels.  This is not disembodied spirits, whether on their own or representing the dead.  It is sin to deal with the latter and to deal with spirits in various degrees of manifestation we must discern on a case by case situation.  In Deuteronomy God explains why "no other god (elohim) shall be in you."  He is jealous and wants you for Himself.  Why not use tea leaves and tarot cards?  It is because God wants to fill you with His own Spirit, and, "The Spirit of prophecy is the testimony to Jesus."

Amen and Amen.

Greetings reFORMer and micah7:9:

1 Pet 3:19
For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison.

Hummmm,.... so when the Lord Jesus Christ spoke to SPIRITS in prison...he was consulting with familiar spirits and necromancy?
SHAME ON HIM.
Then according....your views also make Jesus Christ guilty of "incarnating" and "channeling."
SHAME ON HIM again.

I stand with Christ and I will NEVER make any of his work an abomination.
Most of what happens in the spirit world - we really know little if any about it.


Ephesians 5:1 commands us to be imitators of Christ. Jesus Himself stated many times that He came as an example and, over 30 times, the New Testament uses some tense of the phrase "follow me", "follow Him" or "followers of Christ."
The word "followers" can be traced back to the Greek word "mimos" which means "to imitate." From the word "mimos", we can easily see from where the English words "mime" and "mimic" are derived.

Scripture is loaded with examples revealing how and what one must do in order to be an imitator of Christ. Love your enemies. Forgive those who have sinned against you. Heal the sick.
Cast out devils. Set captives free. Make disciples.
Visit the imprisoned, the infirmed and feed the hungry. Things like that, right?

So how's all that coming along anyway?

Peace my friends, AJ.


.

God's purpose in all this was to use the church to display his wisdom in its rich variety to all the unseen rulers and authorities in the heavenly places.
--Eph 3:10


"unseen rulers"

G746
ἀρχή
archē
ar-khay'
From G756; (properly abstract) a commencement, or (concrete) chief (in various applications of order, time, place or rank): - beginning, corner, (at the, the) first (estate), magistrate, power, principality, principle, rule.


[and] "authorities"

G1849
ἐξουσία
exousia
ex-oo-see'-ah
From G1832 (in the sense of ability); privilege, that is, (subjectively) force, capacity, competency, freedom, or (objectively) mastery (concretely magistrate, superhuman, potentate, token of control), delegated influence: - authority, jurisdiction, liberty, power, right, strength.


[in the]

"heavenly" [places]

G2032
ἐπουράνιος
epouranios
ep-oo-ran'-ee-os
From G1909 and G3772; above the sky: - celestial, (in) heaven (-ly), high.


To miss this is to miss the whole story. imo

Quote from: AJ on March 11, 2011, 08:36:22 PM
Greetings reFORMer and micah7:9:

1 Pet 3:19
For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison.

Hummmm,.... so when the Lord Jesus Christ spoke to SPIRITS in prison...he was consulting with familiar spirits and necromancy?
SHAME ON HIM.
Then according....your views also make Jesus Christ guilty of "incarnating" and "channeling."
SHAME ON HIM again.

I stand with Christ and I will NEVER make any of his work an abomination.
Most of what happens in the spirit world - we really know little if any about it.


Ephesians 5:1 commands us to be imitators of Christ. Jesus Himself stated many times that He came as an example and, over 30 times, the New Testament uses some tense of the phrase "follow me", "follow Him" or "followers of Christ."
The word "followers" can be traced back to the Greek word "mimos" which means "to imitate." From the word "mimos", we can easily see from where the English words "mime" and "mimic" are derived.

Scripture is loaded with examples revealing how and what one must do in order to be an imitator of Christ. Love your enemies. Forgive those who have sinned against you. Heal the sick.
Cast out devils. Set captives free. Make disciples.
Visit the imprisoned, the infirmed and feed the hungry. Things like that, right?

So how's all that coming along anyway?

Peace my friends, AJ.


.

Christ command us to heal the sick, preach etc as he did, but does he command us to preach to disembodied spirits?



This might interest some of you, I know it interests me. I had a dream I was in hell, I was in a big mansion and there were people there, it seemed an ok place, a bit run down perhaps, looked like the Addams Familly mansion.
I started preaching about God being the saviour of all men and their eyes lighted up, but then it seemed as if my message was being rejected and could no longer preach. I asked my guide what happened? but did not receive an answer.
Then some mafia type people came in to the house demanding payment, I tried to smack them over their head with a bat, but his head was metal, I knew I had no chance, so I apologized, he left me alone then. These people were some kind of goons for high ranking people in hell who had power, so it seemed a place very similar to earth.

This dream is a bit strange just like most dreams, but in most dreams I don't preach about God, neither have I ever gone to a place that I thought was considered hell by me, and this is even though I have had dreams where I have been in far worse places, I did not consider them hell. I cannot know for sure whether this was a real vision or just a dream, but interesting nevertheless.

You being Thinktank will show me, but I could not find this information..."Christ command us to heal the sick, preach etc as he did, but does he command us to preach to disembodied spirits?'  Thinktank

Ezekiel 34:4
You have not strengthened the weak or healed the sick or bound up the injured. You have not brought back the strays or searched for the lost. You have ruled them harshly and brutally.

Matthew 10:1
[ Jesus Sends Out the Twelve ] Jesus called his twelve disciples to him and gave them authority to drive out impure spirits and to heal every disease and sickness.

Matthew 10:8
Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse those who have leprosy, drive out demons. Freely you have received; freely give.


Acts 19:12
12So that from his body were brought unto the sick handkerchiefs or aprons, and the diseases departed from them, and the evil spirits went out of them.

Jesus healed out of love and compassion, He had no choice..it came out of Him...He is Love...healing had to come, the disease, what ever it was had no foothold.... He healed and made well those in need as the healing came out from Him.
You may consider or think command, I do not see that. Jesus, the man was here on earth to express the VERY LOVE of the Creator and Father. When Jesus saw, felt, or was even close to a discrepencie of the human being...it had to be healed...there was not place or room for the weakness that at times overwhlems the human body that was able(Abel) to stand or hold...it had to and must fail. My God regins. Our perception and understanding of spirit is hobbled and even bound with our natural imagination, called normal, and that is the very speak that Jesus conveyed that we must not hear, only man only heard the healing stuff and seen the things that what Jesus could do......we did not get it then...not even those closest to Him, they continued to build on the "law" making the rituals and stuff we have today in religion....it was not the time...but now, it is the time...we hear what the Spirit is saying. Jesus was and is revealing, manifesting, uncovering Himself to those who have ears to hear...NOW.

Quote from: AJ on March 11, 2011, 08:36:22 PM
Greetings reFORMer and micah7:9:

1 Pet 3:19
For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison.

Hummmm,.... so when the Lord Jesus Christ spoke to SPIRITS in prison...he was consulting with familiar spirits and necromancy?
SHAME ON HIM.
Then according....your views also make Jesus Christ guilty of "incarnating" and "channeling."
SHAME ON HIM again.

I stand with Christ and I will NEVER make any of his work an abomination.
Most of what happens in the spirit world - we really know little if any about it.


Ephesians 5:1 commands us to be imitators of Christ. Jesus Himself stated many times that He came as an example and, over 30 times, the New Testament uses some tense of the phrase "follow me", "follow Him" or "followers of Christ."
The word "followers" can be traced back to the Greek word "mimos" which means "to imitate." From the word "mimos", we can easily see from where the English words "mime" and "mimic" are derived.

Scripture is loaded with examples revealing how and what one must do in order to be an imitator of Christ. Love your enemies. Forgive those who have sinned against you. Heal the sick.
Cast out devils. Set captives free. Make disciples.
Visit the imprisoned, the infirmed and feed the hungry. Things like that, right?

So how's all that coming along anyway?

Peace my friends, AJ.

This is not about the living contacting the dead.  It is the dead preaching to the dead, which is what Christ did while He was dead.  Christ Jesus had died and gone as a spirit into hades, preaching to those who died in the days of Noah.  "...being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:  By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;  Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water." (1 Peter 3:18-20; KJV)  The imprisonment of those dead from the flood worked.  This is evident from the phrase, "Which sometime were disobedient." (v.20)  They were no longer disobedient.  "For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit." (1 Peter 4:6; KJV)

What I do is attempt to talk to anyone and everyone I can, mostly at the Post Office, the grocery store, hardware store, restaurants, at my house...wherever, whenever.  There isn't much opportunity in steeple houses because they run the pastor system which is a one man show.  The Church isn't on their program.  Neverthless, I sometimes meet hungry people in their Sunday Schools.  In all these venues the power of God sometimes shows up too.  Hopefully we can have a little fellowship gathering more regularly at home.  Similar, to home schooling, it seem a house church may be the only way we can meet as the body of Christ without other mediators.  Men are in charge everywhere we look.  "Those who are lead of the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God."  So what are those who are lead of other men?  MEET WITHOUT HUMAN HEADSHIP!!!

One very important thing to consider is that nowhere in the Bible do teachers, prophets, apostles and the like interact with spirits presenting as spirits of the dead.  The Bible record shows the gifted ones in the living Church minister to those who are alive, never to the dead, which would defy God's ban on such.

Glory and Amen!
I must and will get back to this post,yet when one is dealing with the thoughts and reasons of I AM and then listening, we  know that our speech needs be One, not more than One, for One is Peace, and Spirit is One. I AM!

Quote from: micah7:9 on March 14, 2011, 02:30:43 AM
Jesus healed out of love and compassion, He had no choice..it came out of Him...He is Love...healing had to come, the disease, what ever it was had no foothold.... He healed and made well those in need as the healing came out from Him.
You may consider or think command, I do not see that. Jesus, the man was here on earth to express the VERY LOVE of the Creator and Father. When Jesus saw, felt, or was even close to a discrepencie of the human being...it had to be healed...there was not place or room for the weakness that at times overwhlems the human body that was able(Abel) to stand or hold...it had to and must fail. My God regins. Our perception and understanding of spirit is hobbled and even bound with our natural imagination, called normal, and that is the very speak that Jesus conveyed that we must not hear, only man only heard the healing stuff and seen the things that what Jesus could do......we did not get it then...not even those closest to Him, they continued to build on the "law" making the rituals and stuff we have today in religion....it was not the time...but now, it is the time...we hear what the Spirit is saying. Jesus was and is revealing, manifesting, uncovering Himself to those who have ears to hear...NOW.

What I'm saying is that Jesus gave us an instructions to do works in his name.

Matthew 10:8
Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse those who have leprosy, drive out demons. Freely you have received; freely give

But I cannot find instructions/commands to go and preach to disombodied spirits, but rather he says to cast them out.
Do you think that Now, Jesus in Love calls us to preach to disombodied spirits? instead of casting them out? That perhaps in those days the command to cast out spirits was there for only those of that time period?

Bible Secret Number 43 Did Christ Preach While Dead?

Did Christ preach to the spirits in prison (their underground place of restraint) while he was in the tomb for three days?
 
Many people, even whole denominations, have as their creed that Christ did in fact go to the fallen angels and preach to them while he was dead for three days. But the Bible also consistently tells us that Christ died, and that when he was resurrected three days later he was raised up from the dead. This means that the three parts of Christ (who was then a human being) died, or else as Paul taught the three parts of a human (body, soul and spirit – I Thessalonians 5:23) cannot be saved because our bodies have sins on them (Colossians 2:11), our souls have sins on them (Ezekiel 18:4), and our spirits have sins on them (II Corinthians 7:1). To cleans us of all sins (those of the body, soul and spirit), Christ had to die for us (on our behalf, as a substitute for us) and he had to die in body, in soul, and in his spirit. It is just that simple.

Had Christ's body died and his soul and spirit went on living, then he did not die as other humans die. But there was nothing about Christ at the time that differentiated him from any other human (Philippians 2:6-8). So Christ died as do all humans - on body, soul and spirit. This means it would have been impossible for him to go to the spirits in prison and preach to them while he was dead for three days. This is because a dead man is not alive when he is dead.

Now if someone you may have known recently died and you or anyone else witnesses a spirit personality who says he or she is the one who recently died, you can know for a fact that the spirit saying such a thing is a lying spirit who is just like Satan the Devil trying to deceive you. This is the very thing that the apostle Paul warned people about which he said was to occur in greater incidence in the latter times. He said: "now the spirit speaks expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of demons" (I Timothy 4:1). Listen, if any person you know is dead supposedly make a "spirit appearance" to you or anyone else, that spirit is a false, lying and deceptive spirit that is akin to Satan the Devil and that spirit should not be heeded in any way. The apostle John said: "Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try (or, test) the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world" (I John 4:1). The truth is, the dead are dead and they will remain dead (including Mary the mother of Jesus and all the apostles and early prophets) until the resurrection from the dead which takes place at the second advent of Christ (I Corinthians 15:38-55). And this means that Christ himself, when he was in the tomb for three days, was completely without consciousness during that time in body, soul and spirit (just the same as any other human being is also completely dead – utterly unconscious).

So, Christ could not go to the spirits in prison while he was dead and preach to them. In actual fact, the apostle Peter nowhere suggest such nonsense. In I Peter 3:18 he states that Christ truly died (he was "put to death in the flesh") but then he was "quickened by the Spirit" (last part of verse 18). To be quickened means to be made alive. Peter is telling us that Christ was put to death and then later he was resurrected from the dead (he was "quickened"), and then in the spirit, "he went and preached unto the spirits in prison" (verse 19). It is made abundantly clear by Peter that this preaching to the angelic hosts who rebelled in Noah's time was after he was quickened – after he was resurrected from the dead. It is amazing how many misapply the plain words of Peter that this occurred after Christ was "quickened". It is wrong to make Christ preaching while he was dead.

This misapplication of the scripture is another example of how the false notion that the dead are still alive (that is, alive in soul or spirit –which they are not) is a major factor in creating myriads of false doctrines that the dead are now alive. Let me be plain. The only person who has been resurrected back to a spiritual life where he will never die again is Christ Jesus himself (I Corinthians 15:20-22), while Mary the mother of Jesus, all the apostles, and even all of us today, will have to wait until the second advent of Christ to regain life by the resurrection from the dead (I Corinthians 15:23). It is time to give up the foolish teaching that the dead are now alive. They are not alive, but totally dead and thoroughly unconscious and they are without the slightest knowledge of what is going on in the earth or in heaven. Ernest L Martin

First, TT stated
There is revelation / understanding that is yet to be revealed.  And how is God going to reveal this info?
Yup...by angels....who were men that had previously lived before on the earth as men.
A. while it is true angels did bring instruction in visions mostly, but occasionally they would relay directions to an individual.  There is no indication where revelation came from the angel.  What they delivered was a specific instruction from God "to" an individual.  But as near as I can tell, it is God that does the revealing.  And what he reveals to us is the nature of Christ in us.  But to say it only comes from angels, or through angels . . . feels like it's stretching things.

B.   Where on earth did you come up with the idea that dead people turn into angels?  We were created a little below angels and through the redemption of Christ, we are elvated above them, but I've never seen in Scripture or in revelation where men who were once flesh were transformed into angels.  I think right now, there are men who are angels . . . but not because of their dna make up . . .but because they are God's messengers . .that could be "anyone".

CHB stated
if any person you know is dead supposedly make a "spirit appearance" to you or anyone else, that spirit is a false, lying and deceptive spirit that is akin to Satan the Devil and that spirit should not be heeded in any way

I kinda take issue with this as well.  It feels like this last post of yours turned a corner to where things were said that are forced rather than flowing.  I can't digest this one either.  I don't have all the answers and I'm not about to try to speak as one who is an authority over these matters, but at the same time, I do think there have been instances where this actual kind of phenomena has occurred and it wasn't a demon or what have you.   It's not something I would make a doctrine out of either. 

But . .as I offered to you before, from what I've read in Hebrews 11 and 12, it would appear that what you're adamantly proclaiming doesn't fit with what Scripture is manifesting . . .and  . . .if we did die and become nonexistant . . .who was it that the Bible said was Moses and Elijah that appeared with Jesus before Peter James and John?   Demons pretending to be someone else?  It just isn't fitting at all.

Is there someone else called TT? That quote you said Nathan does not sound like me, unless you rewrote what I said, but I don't recall saying that men turn into angels. I agree with you that angels are a different beings to men, my take on it  is that angels are mightier than men, in terms of power, majesty, even when men take off the limitations of the flesh and become spirits, but I also belive as you said Nathan that through Christ in us, we in a sense are more majestic or powerful than angels, simply because He who is the greatest, lives withinus.

I also have some very contraversial stuff, I'd like to say, but not sure what do with the information right now, as it is not appealing and could bring extra ammo to the ET camp, which I do not want, maybe I'll pm some of you for your opinion.

uh oh  . . . I copied and pasted it but now that you've brought it up, I can't find what I copied it from . . . I thought is was on page one of this thread . . but I'm not seeing it . . .sigh . . .sorry TT if I've misdirected this toward you when you didn't say it.

I'll keep looking though . . .I thought the post I took it from was quoting a passage out of 1 Timothy just before it . . .but I can't find that either.

TT I'm really sorry about that . . .I've gone through this thread slowly and I don't even know where I got it from.  I copied and pasted it . . .apparently from another thread . . .apparently not written by you . . .

My mistake. 

Apology accepted captain Nathan...... thank you  :thumbsup:


:director:  Now give me 50 pushups  :laughing7:

Maybe that'd help me get rid of this keg sitting on my chest . . .. I have a washboard chest . . .it's just . . .not manifesting as such right now. :dontknow:

50 is a bit hardcore, 20 is a good target, I can currently do about 16, proper ones, not the jelly wobbly walrus type ones you see a lot doing, claiming a 100  :laughing7:

Quote from: Nathan
But . .as I offered to you before, from what I've read in Hebrews 11 and 12, it would appear that what you're adamantly proclaiming doesn't fit with what Scripture is manifesting . . .and  . . .if we did die and become nonexistant . . .who was it that the Bible said was Moses and Elijah that appeared with Jesus before Peter James and John?   Demons pretending to be someone else?  It just isn't fitting at all.

Nathan, I didn't mean to imply that we became nonexistance when we die, just inactive.

Also, Jesus himself said that the Transfiguration was a vision. He said "tell the vision to no man".

What if this vision was just a look into the future?

CHB

I don't buy it . . .they were discussing his death . . .Peter was freaking out about wanting to give homage to all three of them . . .Jesus had revealed his true nature to them . . .nothing futuristic about any of that other than their conversation was pertaining to something yet to come . . . there is no references after this where Abraham, Moses and Jesus were reunited.

I believe what really was going on there was God was restoring that which the Israelites lost in the ark . . .they lost the manna and the rod that budded . . .manna being Christ, the rod being Aarons was considered to be the mouthpiece of Moses . . .Elijah was representing the prophets in that he was the first to actually raise up schools of prophets . . .he was to prophets was Moses was to the law.  So when Elijah and Moses both appeared with Jesus, it was symbolizing the restoration of the heart of God . . .the innermost articles within the ark.

As for the inactive part . . .there's no pattern to life/spirit being inactive.  It's always moving, breathing . . .I believe the soul side of things is inactive, but not the spirit.  We are not souls, we are spirits in which souls manifest when our spirits inhabit bodies . .

Quote from: Molly on March 10, 2011, 02:17:37 PM

QuoteWe are hobbled to the earthy for we have been taught that the heavenly is somewhere other that within and among us. We are afraid to believe in Jesus and that we are above all that is below, WE ARE A NEW CREATURE but we live in fear. I say Glory!

I agree with everything you just said, Micah.

But, I showed you the word 'pneumatikos' because I believe it is referring to spiritual beings.
Where are "beings" or "spiritual beings" found in the Bible?

I also believe these spiritual beings are involved in things for good or evil.  Ephesians 6 is talking about evil spiritual beings that we are to wrestle [vibrate] against.  But it's interesting that one of the definitions is 'human ethereal,' implying that we are also spiritual beings.b]"ethereal"[/b]


Where are "spiritual beings" discussed in the Word?[/b[/size]


•aeriform: characterized by lightness and insubstantiality; as impalpable or intangible as air; "figures light and aeriform come unlooked for and melt away"- Thomas Carlyle; "aerial fancies"; "an airy apparition"; "physical rather than ethereal forms"
•of or containing or dissolved in ether; "ethereal solution"
•celestial: of heaven or the spirit; "celestial peace"; "ethereal melodies"; "the supernal happiness of a quiet death"


First definition 'aeriform.'--•resembling air or having the form of air

I know you'll never agree we have celestial, ethereal, spirit bodies--but it's something that I believe.  Right now, in this aeon,  Satan has the power over the 'air.'

You are correct in what you say, that I will not agree, at least at this point.
That is the very question of my post. Man has his "ideas" and mans imagination is powerful, and when man is asked just what is spirit, it is mans conception that is given to prove what man does not understand.
I am in the boat as well, and as I recall Peter was called out of the boat and for a second Peter, I believe was in The Spirit, but then he began to go under....WHY....I reflect on Jesus' statement... Luk 18:8  I say to you, that He will execute the justice to them quickly; but the Son of Man having come, shall he find the faith upon the earth?'
Still, I believe that is Spirit.
I believe and reason that the Son of Man has come, only I, as many have been taught it is unreachable for the called, To day.

Ephesians 2:2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience—

I saw a good movie about this :Ink.

Quote from: AJ on March 11, 2011, 08:36:22 PM
Greetings reFORMer and micah7:9:

1 Pet 3:19
For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison.

Hummmm,.... so when the Lord Jesus Christ spoke to SPIRITS in prison...he was consulting with familiar spirits and necromancy? SHAME ON HIM.

This word spirit, I understand and reason to mean souls which is a breathing creature.
And one must understand that God Is Spirit, so all spirits are from and out of Him. No consulting with familiar spirits or necromancy. He Is Spirit (John 6:24) and He is the Father of spirits.(Heb. 12:9)

No consulting with familiar spirits or necromancy. He Is Spirit (John 6:24) and He is the Father of spirits.(Heb. 12:9) [/b]

Then according....your views also make Jesus Christ guilty of "incarnating" and "channeling."
SHAME ON HIM again.

I stand with Christ and I will NEVER make any of his work an abomination.
I stand with Christ and you.

Most of what happens in the spirit world - we really know little if any about it.


Ephesians 5:1 commands us to be imitators of Christ. Jesus Himself stated many times that He came as an example and, over 30 times, the New Testament uses some tense of the phrase "follow me", "follow Him" or "followers of Christ."
The word "followers" can be traced back to the Greek word "mimos" which means "to imitate." From the word "mimos", we can easily see from where the English words "mime" and "mimic" are derived.

Scripture is loaded with examples revealing how and what one must do in order to be an imitator of Christ. Love your enemies. Forgive those who have sinned against you. Heal the sick.
Cast out devils. Set captives free. Make disciples.
Visit the imprisoned, the infirmed and feed the hungry. Things like that, right?

So how's all that coming along anyway?

Peace my friends, AJ.


.

Micah I can't understand your post.  If you could make it a little clearer by formatting it.

EVERYONE PLEASE PRAY FOR THE SITUATION IN JAPAN.  As one newsman put it, the situation is dire if not desperate.  There are four reactors in some stage of [pre?]meltdown, and now they are dropping water on them from the sky?  This is unbelievable.  Please pray.

My response is in the bold (several days old)

The Lord has had me praying for Japan from the very first, I happened to be awake when the first news came over FOX. From what I have seen on FOX the Japanese are a people to admired in there stability in the face of what I would call total devastation. Yes I pray for those people.

Quote from: Molly on March 17, 2011, 04:45:57 AM
Micah I can't understand your post.  If you could make it a little clearer by formatting it.

EVERYONE PLEASE PRAY FOR THE SITUATION IN JAPAN.  As one newsman put it, the situation is dire if not desperate.  There are four reactors in some stage of [pre?]meltdown, and now they are dropping water on them from the sky?  This is unbelievable.  Please pray.

It was not my intent enlarge my responses that big.Tryed to reduce them but alas it did not work.

I realize my posts cause different emotions to arise in this little forum community, and I may be misunderstood and I may not have the finesse that others have when responding or putting forth a question.
I find an apology for this weakness of action, out of the question, this is how I am.
I also believe that my post "Just what it spirit," is a good question and could use more response than it has, but that is only my opinon. Someone out there probably knows just what spirit is...I would like to hear more from others, it can only help all who have considered the thought. 
I am gratefull for the ones who have responded. Yes, it is true that we may not agree, and in my case you can almost figger that what I have to offer will cause an awe and several oohs by the the person reading the post, perhaps with a silent shake of the head... with  hands not even touching the keys for the response. And a capital WHAT? rolling back on the vocal cord.
But come on...I like to know "Just what is spirit." And thank and I hope the Lord will continue to bless. :bigGrin:

Quote from: jabcat on March 06, 2011, 08:55:34 AM
Paul didn't talk about it that I know of, other than to say "it is raised a spiritual body".

I don't know, but do you think it could be something like Jesus had after the crucifixion and his resurrection?  He was seen by people, ate food, but could apparently pass through walls and "transport" from one place to another.  Could it be something so "foreign" to us, we really can't get a good handle on it, as none of us have (probably) seen one?   :dontknow:

Or do you think it's something else, brother micah?

1Co 15:44  it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body; there is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body;

As far as I can tell in my reading, this is the only place where we see the use of a "spiritual body."  There is no speak that I can find, no other verses or information of "spiritual bodies" other than christian and religious speak from orthodox religion.
I do not believe that it is "foreign" to us, for we "claim to believe," still (and I may have said something like this on a response post earlier) we dont "walk out on whatever it maybe,"  as Peter, who saw his Master walking on the water and was ready to come meet Jesus, and Jesus said "Come," Peter ventured forth and began to walk on the water, but the sea was overwhelming in his mind, he began to sink...and who helped the sinking man, Peter,(a stone).... who stepped forward to help the slave/servant who stepped out on the raging sea to go (or COME to his Master) no one else but the Master of Love....Jesus.
I contend it was that "faith" that "love" that "forgetting all of what he was" that was SPIRIT, not the spirit, not a spirit, but the very SUBSTANCE that is I AM.
That is SPIRITUAL. Just what is this "spiritual body."
BODY G4983 sōma ...the body (as a sound whole)
From G4982  sōzō   to save, that is, deliver or protect (literally or figuratively): - heal, preserve, save (self), do well, be (make) whole.
I will let you all respond to spiritual= "pneumatikos" that is  From G4154; a current of air, that is, breath

Consider the metaphor comparing electricity in a lightbulb with spirit.  The bulb represents the body.  The electric current in the lightbulb produces light as the spirit in a body produces the soul.  The soul is thought, will, and emotion.  Rather than following the impulses of the flesh and producing a carnal mind we are to be given over to the spirit.  Because of the weakness of the flesh we become slaves of either flesh or the spirit.  By becoming incarnate Jesus has sanctified our being in the flesh, only it must be brought into subjection to the spirit.  There is a soul according to the flesh which is death, but when disposed to spirit the soul, or psyche (Greek) is life and peace.

Inherent in the Greek language itself is a metaphor of spirit, soul and body.  Body is "soma," and, as flesh, is three-fourths water.  Spirit in Greek is BLOWeffect according to A. E. Knoch.  He also gives "Psyche," what we call soul, the meaning of COOLeffect.  The spirit blows on the water and the effect produced is cooling.

Many think of the soul as the "inner man."  Actually the spirit is the inner man, though it is confused with the soul, being dead in trespasses and sins and our walking according to the spirit of stubborness.  When regeneration occurs, the Spirit of God (that Jesus says comes in His name) by inhabiting our our bodies with us and in union with our spirits, divides (Grk:  merismos) the soul from the spirit and quickens the spirit to "newness of life."  So we are raised to sit in the heavenlies (or, celestials) with Christ; indeed, He, "...hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ..." (Ephesians 1:3, AV)

Ephesians 2:1-10 (Concordant Literal Translation)...
1 And you, being dead to your offenses and sins,
2 in which once you walked, in accord with the eon of this world, in accord with the chief of the jurisdiction of the air, the spirit now operating in the sons of stubbornness
3 (among whom we also all behaved ourselves once in the lusts of our flesh, doing the will of the flesh and of the comprehension, and were, in our nature, children of indignation, even as the rest),
4 yet God, being rich in mercy, because of His vast love with which He loves us
5 (we also being dead to the offenses and the lusts), vivifies [i.e., makes alive the spirit of] us together in Christ (in grace are you saved!)
6 and rouses [i.e., awakens the soul of] us together and seats us together among [in, plural] the celestials, in Christ Jesus,
7 that, in the oncoming eons, He should be displaying the transcendent riches of His grace in His kindness to us in Christ Jesus.
8 For in grace, through faith, are you saved, and this is not out of you; it is God's approach present,
9 not of works, lest anyone should be boasting.
10 For His achievement are we, being created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God makes ready beforehand, that we should be walking in them.



(Don't forget to mark the words:  "spirit," "spirits," and "spiritual" in 1st and 2nd Corinthians. examining the context in which they appear!)

Thank you very much, but without sounding to well, I dont know, that is the same BS that is always  handed down to the folk. I was not asking about the weakness of the flesh.
All the cool words as "psyche" dont mean nothing to answer the question. Inner man, baah humbug! Ya all always go back to that "soul" stuff, read Gen. 2:7 yeah as time would have its changes, soul took on a different meaning in the NT, but that does in no way change what a soul is..." and breatheth into his nostrils breath of life, and the man becometh a living creature. now that according to the Bible is a living soul. Man does not HAVE a soul, man was not GIVEN a soul...MAN IS A SOUL.

Now besides that, is there a clear thought as to just what is the spirit? Jesus said...Joh 6:63 the spirit it is that is giving life; the flesh doth not profit anything; the sayings that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life;

We must ask To Day, what is "spirit" for it is spirit that is the veheicle, the source, the substance, that makes up all that we believe and embrace and accept that we shall be...Co 15:52  in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, in the last trumpet, for it shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we--we shall be changed:

Just what is spirit

pneumatikos
G4152


1) relating to the human spirit, or rational soul, as part of the man which is akin to God and serves as his instrument or organ

a) that which possesses the nature of the rational soul

2) belonging to a spirit, or a being higher than man but inferior to God

3) belonging to the Divine Spirit

a) of God the Holy Spirit

b) one who is filled with and governed by the Spirit of God

4) pertaining to the wind or breath; windy, exposed to the wind, blowing



versus


sarkikos

G4559

1) fleshly, carnal

a) having the nature of flesh, i.e. under the control of the animal appetites

1) governed by mere human nature not by the Spirit of God

2) having its seat in the animal nature or aroused by the animal nature

3) human: with the included idea of depravity

b) pertaining to the flesh

1) to the body: related to birth, linage, etc



Micah, from these words we can see there is pneumatikos which are spiritual beings, not man, which are higher than man and lower than God.

We also see there is a part of man that is akin to God--the rational soul, and that man can be totally filled and governed by the Spirit of God.--which I think would put man on an equal footing with these other spiritual beings, and, in fact, superior to them.

What a piece of work is a man, how noble in reason, how
infinite in faculties, in form and moving how express and
admirable, in action how like an angel, in apprehension how like
a god! the beauty of the world, the paragon of animals—
--Shakespeare, Hamlet

Hi;
2 Tim 1;7 " For God has NOT given us a spirit of cowardice, but of Power and Love and Correction."
1 Tim 1;12 " I am grateful to Him that empowers me, Christ Jesus our Lord."
2 Thess 2;13,14 " But we are bound to give thanks to God continually concerning you, brethren beloved by the Lord, for that God chose you from the beginning to salvation, in sanctification of spirit and belief of the truth, unto which He called you through means of our glad-message to an acquiring of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ."
John 4;23,24 " But there comes an hour and now is, when the real worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and truth; for even the Father is seeking such as these as His worshippers. God is spirit; and they that worship Him must needs worship Him in spirit and truth."
Acts 1;8 " But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit comes upon you."

You will have heard, read, seen many scriptures that say all these scenarios. What does it mean personally?
I am personally convinced that we know His presence when there is a personal inexpicable power that actually fills every part of our being. Power that I have no say in and is a literal gut wrenching experience. This seems to be the very thing Paul refers to when he said I will boast in the Lord. For my power is made complete in my weakness.Most glady will I boast in my weaknesses that the POWER of Christ may spread a tent over me.[2 Cor 12;9]

The give away part about if that power is real or false is stated in ;
1 John 4 2-4 " Hereby do you perceive the Spirit of God;
every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ as having come in the flesh is of God;and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not of God, and this is the antichrist, touching which you have heard that it comes; it is even now already  in the world. Dear children, you are of God and have overcome them; because greater is He that is in you than he that is in the world."

1 John 4;12,13 "  No-one has gazed upon God at any time; if we love on another, God lives in us and His love has been perfected in us. Hereby we perceive that we are living in Him and He in us, in that He has given to us of His spiritand we for ourselves are bearing witness that the Father sent forth the Son as Savior of the world. Whoever shall confess that Jesus Christ is th Son of God, God lives in him and he in God."

Isn't it crazy that we have a hard time explaining something that would appear to be as simple as what the spirit is?

In a word, for me . .it's essence.  Spirit is also not a Hebrew word.  There is no word in the Hebrew vocabulary for spirit.  The word they use and has been translated to say spirit is "breath" or "breathe"  The spirit itself can't be seen, only sensed.  Like wind in the leaves, you can't see the wind but you can see it's affect on the leaves.

It's like trying to identify God . . .he is I am.  Jesus explains himself as yesterday, today and forever . . .which is . . .I am.  So I guess it shouldn't be much of a surprise to see us struggling in trying to define what Spirit "is".  Because even though we, ourselves, are spirits, we reason with our minds and Scripture has already informed us that our minds are not equipped to operate on such plains as this . . .the only thing that would clearly define to each of us what the spirit "is", would be personal "experience".  It's an inward affirmation that my mind can't quite put a finger on how to define it.

And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
--Gen 1

Hebrew
"Spirit" [of God]

H7307
רוּח
rûach
roo'-akh
From H7306; wind; by resemblance breath, that is, a sensible (or even violent) exhalation; figuratively life, anger, unsubstantiality; by extension a region of the sky; by resemblance spirit, but only of a rational being (including its expression and functions): - air, anger, blast, breath, X cool, courage,mind, X quarter, X side, spirit ([-ual]), tempest, X vain, ([whirl-]) wind (-y).

Micah are you looking for a scientific explanation of what spirit is composed of?

Spirit is composed of unseen things, the closest material to spirit I think is light and water. For Jesus came by water and in Rev 22 the lamb of God is the light of the city, both morally and physically.

Spirit gives life.

Water and light also give life and are the main power substances in this world.

I refuse to believe that God almighty, though is nothing more than some kind of force, you can believe that if you wish. But my God is a personal God.

Quote from: thinktank on March 15, 2011, 09:53:39 PM
50 is a bit hardcore, 20 is a good target, I can currently do about 16, proper ones, not the jelly wobbly walrus type ones you see a lot doing, claiming a 100  :laughing7:

16? That's nothing with your arms  :icon_jokercolor:
(http://www.ianstevenson.co.uk/images/myspace/short_arms_422.jpg)

 :bigGrin: Carefull wings, notice the size of my mouth, do you know that a trex has short arms too, not wise to battle a T-rex!.

Quote from: Nathan on March 16, 2011, 02:13:29 AM
I don't buy it . . .they were discussing his death . . .Peter was freaking out about wanting to give homage to all three of them . . .Jesus had revealed his true nature to them . . .nothing futuristic about any of that other than their conversation was pertaining to something yet to come . . . there is no references after this where Abraham, Moses and Jesus were reunited.

I believe what really was going on there was God was restoring that which the Israelites lost in the ark . . .they lost the manna and the rod that budded . . .manna being Christ, the rod being Aarons was considered to be the mouthpiece of Moses . . .Elijah was representing the prophets in that he was the first to actually raise up schools of prophets . . .he was to prophets was Moses was to the law.  So when Elijah and Moses both appeared with Jesus, it was symbolizing the restoration of the heart of God . . .the innermost articles within the ark.

As for the inactive part . . .there's no pattern to life/spirit being inactive.  It's always moving, breathing . . .I believe the soul side of things is inactive, but not the spirit.  We are not souls, we are spirits in which souls manifest when our spirits inhabit bodies . .

March 15,2011  Nathan
"We are not souls, we are spirits in which souls manifest when our spirits inhabit bodies . ."
I find that absurd and not Biblical..
Gen 2:7  And Jehovah God formeth the man--dust from the ground, and breatheth into his nostrils breath of life, and the man becometh a living creature.Gen 2:7  And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Man is a "living soul" a "living creature." How can you possibly say we are not souls?

Quote from: Molly on March 18, 2011, 05:42:01 PM
And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
--Gen 1

Hebrew
"Spirit" [of God]

H7307
רוּח
rûach
roo'-akh
From H7306; wind; by resemblance breath, that is, a sensible (or even violent) exhalation; figuratively life, anger, unsubstantiality; by extension a region of the sky; by resemblance spirit, but only of a rational being (including its expression and functions): - air, anger, blast, breath, X cool, courage,mind, X quarter, X side, spirit ([-ual]), tempest, X vain, ([whirl-]) wind (-y).

Yes I agree with Strongs. I contend that "the Spirit" of God is quite different from
Gen 6:3

(ASV)  And Jehovah said, My spirit shall not strive with man for ever, for that he also is flesh: yet shall his days be a hundred and twenty years.

(CLV) And saying is Yahweh Elohim, "Not abide shall My spirit in the human for the eon, in that moreover, he is flesh. And come shall his days to be a hundred and twenty years.

(KJV)  And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

(Rotherham)  And Yahweh said—My spirit shall not rule in man to times age—abiding, for that, he also, is flesh,—Yet his days shall be a hundred and twenty years.

(YLT)  And Jehovah saith, `My Spirit doth not strive in man--to the age; in their erring they are flesh:' and his days have been an hundred and twenty years.

Other than Youngs (there may be others) it is a small "s" as I believe it should be.
God is Spirit... from that Spirit, comes "spirit," which is the very instigation than moves man in his direction and choices.
I believe that it is in error to teach that the Spirit of Genesis 1:2 is the spirit of man.
Man is motivated(kept alive) by the "breath of life," the unconscience act of breathing this, keeps the human being alive.

When we speak of the "Spirit of God" we are not speaking of the "spirit" that motivates man(human being aka mankind.)
God is Spirit and the endeavors of man and is weaknesses and indulgences are not of the Spirit of God.
God is Spirit... Joh 4:24 "God is spirit, .."CVL)
Man is Gods breath, his spirit, it is what gives man life, to be alive, to breath.

Quote from: micah7:9 on March 19, 2011, 04:54:42 AM

Quote from: Nathan on March 16, 2011, 02:13:29 AM
I don't buy it . . .they were discussing his death . . .Peter was freaking out about wanting to give homage to all three of them . . .Jesus had revealed his true nature to them . . .nothing futuristic about any of that other than their conversation was pertaining to something yet to come . . . there is no references after this where Abraham, Moses and Jesus were reunited.

I believe what really was going on there was God was restoring that which the Israelites lost in the ark . . .they lost the manna and the rod that budded . . .manna being Christ, the rod being Aarons was considered to be the mouthpiece of Moses . . .Elijah was representing the prophets in that he was the first to actually raise up schools of prophets . . .he was to prophets was Moses was to the law.  So when Elijah and Moses both appeared with Jesus, it was symbolizing the restoration of the heart of God . . .the innermost articles within the ark.

As for the inactive part . . .there's no pattern to life/spirit being inactive.  It's always moving, breathing . . .I believe the soul side of things is inactive, but not the spirit.  We are not souls, we are spirits in which souls manifest when our spirits inhabit bodies . .

March 15,2011  Nathan
"We are not souls, we are spirits in which souls manifest when our spirits inhabit bodies . ."
I find that absurd and not Biblical..
Gen 2:7  And Jehovah God formeth the man--dust from the ground, and breatheth into his nostrils breath of life, and the man becometh a living creature.Gen 2:7  And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Man is a "living soul" a "living creature." How can you possibly say we are not souls?

So ironic that you use "that" verse to try to disprove what I'm trying to say.  "That" verse is the REASON why I'm trying to say it.  It states God first created man . . .no life manifesting, just the clay pot.  But then he "breathed" which is the Hebrew word for SPIRIT . . .  So you have the two of three major elements.  With just the body, there's nothing happening, then the breath (spirit) of life enters into the clay and clay BECOMES something all together different . . . when SPIRIT entered the BODY the SOUL manifested that marriage . . .. thus . . . . I AM a SPIRIT that lives in a BODY which manifests by my SOUL.  It takes all three components to complete who I am . . .which again, for me, points to the reason as to why it's so important that we all return to our bodies when all things are complete . . .the return of our spirits to our bodies is a part of that completion.  My soul does not manifest "me" if there is no marriage of body and spirit.

I recently moved and found an old letter I wrote to the newspaper about 15 years ago in response to neo-Darwinism articles. It's not "religious" but aimed at ordinary people hoping to get them to "look up" and see more than physical life and perhaps see "Spirit" behind it all...

"THE scientific assertions of the evolutionist have but a small portion of truth regarding the origins of life, but until non-physical life and spiritual evolution is seriously considered, the equation will never balance.

Atoms belonging to our material universe are suspended in etheric waves which vibrate at a certain speed and density.

However, etheric waves continue to increase in frequency and density beyond the Physical and become unimaginably immeasurable. Any life which exists in these waves is beyond the perception of the human eye which can only see within three dimensional time and space.

Even logically, there is likely to be more life beyond the Physical than in the Physical, the material being just a small part of a greater existence. Surely it is non-physical life which animates physical life for the duration of its relatively short existence.

Regarding the existence of a design to our lot, only the purblind could fail to notice the existence of unifying principles. For instance, the acorn and the egg are similar in structure, and both require warmth and incubation for the life within to break forth. The motion of life from inner to outer is a universal law and is never broken.

There is also the spiral principle: The spiral activity of sub-molecular particles; climbing plants spiral as they reach for the light; veins of trees tend to incline from the perpendicular as they traverse the trunk's length; seeds float afield or fall to the ground in a similar curve; a course of sufficient extent shows that birds neither swim nor fly in a straight line; the snail's shell; the orbits of our solar system's planets, and the collection of constellations in our galaxy all show this principle at work.

Finally, why should life have started with the formation of physical planets capable of supporting transient physical life? Physical evolution exists to accommodate spiritual evolution which predates the material.

There is a much grander scheme afoot than we mere humans can truly cognize."

Ah, Life in the Spirit - And forever to live in it because of the Generosity of the One Loving God whom we adore.

Quote from: lastpost on April 13, 2015, 11:57:38 PM
I recently moved and found an old letter I wrote to the newspaper about 15 years ago in response to neo-Darwinism articles. It's not "religious" but aimed at ordinary people hoping to get them to "look up" and see more than physical life and perhaps see "Spirit" behind it all...

"THE scientific assertions of the evolutionist have but a small portion of truth regarding the origins of life, but until non-physical life and spiritual evolution is seriously considered, the equation will never balance.

Atoms belonging to our material universe are suspended in etheric waves which vibrate at a certain speed and density.

However, etheric waves continue to increase in frequency and density beyond the Physical and become unimaginably immeasurable. Any life which exists in these waves is beyond the perception of the human eye which can only see within three dimensional time and space.

Even logically, there is likely to be more life beyond the Physical than in the Physical, the material being just a small part of a greater existence. Surely it is non-physical life which animates physical life for the duration of its relatively short existence.

Regarding the existence of a design to our lot, only the purblind could fail to notice the existence of unifying principles. For instance, the acorn and the egg are similar in structure, and both require warmth and incubation for the life within to break forth. The motion of life from inner to outer is a universal law and is never broken.

There is also the spiral principle: The spiral activity of sub-molecular particles; climbing plants spiral as they reach for the light; veins of trees tend to incline from the perpendicular as they traverse the trunk's length; seeds float afield or fall to the ground in a similar curve; a course of sufficient extent shows that birds neither swim nor fly in a straight line; the snail's shell; the orbits of our solar system's planets, and the collection of constellations in our galaxy all show this principle at work.

Finally, why should life have started with the formation of physical planets capable of supporting transient physical life? Physical evolution exists to accommodate spiritual evolution which predates the material.

There is a much grander scheme afoot than we mere humans can truly cognize."

Ah, Life in the Spirit - And forever to live in it because of the Generosity of the One Loving God whom we adore.

Awesome!

Quote from: Nathan on March 21, 2011, 07:42:40 PM
. . .no life manifesting, just the clay pot.  But then he "breathed" which is the Hebrew word for SPIRIT . . .

..Interesting!

Quote from: lastpost on April 13, 2015, 11:57:38 PM
I recently moved and found an old letter I wrote to the newspaper about 15 years ago in response to neo-Darwinism articles. It's not "religious" but aimed at ordinary people hoping to get them to "look up" and see more than physical life and perhaps see "Spirit" behind it all...

Ah, Life in the Spirit - And forever to live in it because of the Generosity of the One Loving God whom we adore.

Very nice!!  :banana: :smile:

what is spirit?  :Chinscratch:  :Chinscratch:
   - Jude 19 "sensual, having not the spirit" (of God, GR=4151-pneuma - "current (of air)-breath-blast; from 4154,pneo-blow") ..we can be "breathing" and "alive" but have not the spirit/breath of God.. "sensual, having not the spirit"

John 4:23-24 - "..the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him. God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth."

I  think "the spirit gives life" 2 Cor 3:6 means God is Life.. the life force, vitality.. "For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself" - John 5:6 (inherent life; everlasting as opposed to being "a living soul"/alive)

verses 1 John 4 and 5 - all from #4151-pneuma - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+john+4%3A1-6%3B+1+John+5%3A6-8&version=NKJV

all the Listings in Strong's Concordance:

spirit
in the Hebrew/OT, translated from two:
7307 ruwach - "wind-breath-exhalation-blow"
178 owb - "prattling, mumble" used for familiar spirit

in the Greek/NT, also two:
4151 pneuma - "current (of air)-breath-blast; from 4154,pneo-blow" translated for/as: of God, the spirit, poor in spirit, spirit is willing, unclean spirit, etc
5326 phantasma - "show-phantasm, ie spectre" - tranlated as: a spirit

spirits = same in the Heb and the Gr; unclean/evil, discerning of, ministering spirits, Father of spirits, spirits in 'prison'-(imo,locked into perishing as the ark was being prepared)

life
the HEB:
2416 chay - "alive, from 2421-to live"
5315 nephesh - "breathing-abstr=vitality=from 5414-to breathe" translated for/as: legalities, life for life, etc
2421 chayah - "to live"

the GR:
5590 psuche - "breath-from 5594-psucho,breathe" translated for/as - lose life..
2222 zoe - "life-from 2198,zao-to live" translated as/for: enter life, life eternal, leads to,
979 bios - "life" and 982 biotikos "present life, both used for, this life
981 biosis - "living"
895 apsuchos - "lifeless"
2198 zao - "to live" despaired of life
2227 zoopoieo - "vitalize" - 2 Cor 3:6 "the spirit giveth life"
72 agoge - "a bringing up-manner of life"
4151 pneuma - "current(of air)-breathe" [bk rev (13:15) animate?]

living
the HEB:
2416 chay - "alive, from 2421-to live"
2417 chay - "alive-from 2418,chaya-to live"

the GR:
2198 zao - "to live"
979 bios - "life"
              :Peace2:

P.S. - " And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and said to them, `Receive the Holy Spirit`." John 20:22

  you are delving into the mystery of godlyness and the mystery of godlessness..marie...

My senses are attacked by the Devil of the senses: when I have fully overcome temptations both subtle and gross, the powerful Christ into whom my spirit was grafted at my resurrection, will have the Devil of the senses cast into the Lake of Fire, never to return.

My consciousness shall be such that Death, which blighted Life, can now be cast into the Lake never to return, for now I live and experience eternal life which can never be taken away.

I shall have consciousness of God, who is not in one place but is all-in-all, in everything as Ruler and Guide while remaining meek and lowly as His Christ is here too, and I will be one with Him through being one with Christ.

No longer will I be content with the shadows of God seen in the unreal earth, but I will now see and feel Spirit in everything as I have been resurrected a second time now that the Christ in me has perfected me.

I will know that God is all-pervading Love and my eternal life will become a Divine adventure where every moment is supremely precious as I live in God, where there is no more doubt that life is endless, where all has been unravelled, no complicated twists or false signs of the human mind can enter any more.

 :HeartThrob:

Quote from: sheila on April 14, 2015, 07:39:49 PM
  you are delving into the mystery of godlyness and the mystery of godlessness..marie...

...which ultimately is life and non-life? preceded by outer darkness? But praise JAH! "All will remember and turn to the LORD"/LiFe! ...imo? that is..

P.S. bless you Sheila! :girlheart: God sure does love ya!! (i can feel it..)