Is Satan Literally an Entity?

[DeeDee]

Was reading another thread in the Members Lounge about satan and it got me thinking. Is satan an entity? Was he a fallen angel (or was this used as a parrable?) Could he have been human? Or could he simply be the evil we all do - i.e sin?

As mentioned in the other thread, the bible states that God worked with Satan (in Job I think). Was this literally or figuratively?

Is satan Lucifer the fallen angel? Are they really one in the same?

Blessings
Dee

[martincisneros]

Is satan an entity?

Yes

Was he a fallen angel

Yes

Could he have been human?

No

Or could he simply be the evil we all do - i.e sin?

No

As mentioned in the other thread, the bible states that God worked with Satan (in Job I think). Was this literally or figuratively?

God wasn't working with Satan.  Satan was sitting in the seat of Adam since the fall, until Jesus dethroned him, but that's a long story that perhaps I'll have much more time for details on later.  God wasn't going to lie for Job if Job wasn't walking in the hedge of the covenant that he had with God.  God simply said "Behold, he's in your power."  God didn't place him there, though.  Job's fear did.  Fear always turns us over to the evil one for the destruction of the flesh.  It'll do it every single time, but perfected love casts out fear, according to 1John 4.  Those that abide in Him and have His Words abiding in them have the love of God perfected in them, according to 1John 2.  Psalm 112 is always, always, ALWAYS the [series of progressive] results of abiding in the Word.

Is satan Lucifer the fallen angel? Are they really one in the same?

Yes, though others will say something else with their comparative religion studies.

I'm pressed for time with getting to Church, but have a better chance of remembering threads for later additional comments if I say something/anything.

[Craig]

Was reading another thread in the Members Lounge about satan and it got me thinking. Is satan an entity? Was he a fallen angel (or was this used as a parrable?) Could he have been human? Or could he simply be the evil we all do - i.e sin?

As mentioned in the other thread, the bible states that God worked with Satan (in Job I think). Was this literally or figuratively?

Is satan Lucifer the fallen angel? Are they really one in the same?

Blessings
Dee

Satan is a spirit, which is both literal and figurative (a spirit is not a like a man)

Lucifer doesn't exist, has never existed. Lucifer is an invention of 4th Century Christianity.

Satan was never an angel of God, there was never a rebellion in Heaven. The Kingdom of Heaven has never known internal division. If such event happened, then the Kingdom of Heaven will not stand and God will ultimately lose.

Satan's origin has been and alway been earth. When God asked where Satan came from, Satan's reply was Earth. Jesus states that Satan was a spirit Satan is a spirit, which is both literal and figurative (a spirit is not a like a man) created outside the knowledge of the truth and the lying was his native (original) language.

There was a war in heaven against the Kingdom of Heaven versus the kingdom of Satan. Satan ultimately loses this battle and take 1/3 of the angels down with him.

[Molly]

Satan was never an angel of God, there was never a rebellion in Heaven.

There was a war in heaven against the Kingdom of Heaven versus the kingdom of Satan. Satan ultimately loses this battle and take 1/3 of the angels down with him.

Could you just clear this up so you don't sound like you are contradicting yourself?

[WhiteWings]

Craig,

Can you explain a little more?

If Satan never was in heaven how can he have war with heaven?
Came the angels of God from heaven down to earth to battle Satan?
And then Satan convinced 1/3 of them to follow him?

:Chinscratch:

[WhiteWings]

Nowhere does it say Satan convinced any angels to follow him. That is not his way, he works in deceit and beguiling.

Sorry I just don't understand?
Have they somehow joined Satan for whatever reason?
Are they destroyed?

I won't deny I'm possible brainwashed by fables but I always thought Satan has his own army.

[Craig]

Satan was never an angel of God, there was never a rebellion in Heaven.

Could you just clear this up so you don't sound like you are contradicting yourself?

My apologies.

They were not angels who were flung to earth. They were stars.

There was a war in heaven against the Kingdom of Heaven versus the kingdom of Satan. Satan ultimately loses this battle and take 1/3 of the angels down with him.

Let me correct myself, I meant to say 'stars' not angels.

There is no contradiction. It was NOT a civil war. The war in heaven was waged by an external army led by Satan who is from earth. The damages in heaven, 1/3 of the stars were brought down to earth by Satan.

If Satan never was in heaven how can he have war with heaven?
Came the angels of God from heaven down to earth to battle Satan?
And then Satan convinced 1/3 of them to follow him?

In WWII, when Germany invaded France, it wasn't a civil war. France was not at war with itself, it was at war with an external army and both France and Germany had casualties of this war.

Nowhere does it say Satan convinced any angels to follow him. In fact, there is no evidence they were angels of God who fell from heaven in the first place.

Revelation 12:3-4, 7-9
Then another sign appeared in heaven: an enormous red dragon with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on his heads. His tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth.

And there was war in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.

In this entire explanation, there is no evidence that the angels of Satan, were the 1/3 stars. In fact, those stars were hurled down to earth, and then there was a war in heaven while the Dragon was still in heaven. To lose their place in heaven, does not mean he originally had a place reserved for him in heaven to begin with.

In WWII after Germany lost the war, they did not retain the lands they acquired from France.

[Craig]

I won't deny I'm possible brainwashed by fables but I always thought Satan has his own army.

Yes and according to the same passage everyone uses to say that 1/3 of the angels are his army, demonstrates that those 1/3 stars were already flung to earth as the war began. Satan had an army, and it was not any fallen angel of God, nor the fallen stars he flung to earth with his tail, it was his own army that invaded heaven.

2 Corinthians 11:11-15
Why? Because I do not love you? God knows I do! And I will keep on doing what I am doing in order to cut the ground from under those who want an opportunity to be considered equal with us in the things they boast about. For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, masquerading as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. It is not surprising, then, if his servants (angels) masquerade as servants (angels) of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve.

[Molly]

I won't deny I'm possible brainwashed by fables but I always thought Satan has his own army.

Yes and according to the same passage everyone uses to say that 1/3 of the angels are his army, demonstrates that those 1/3 stars were already flung to earth as the war began. Satan had an army, and it was not any fallen angel of God, it was his own army that invaded heaven.

Stars?  What do stars represent?

Who are satan's angels?  You are saying they are not rebellious angels of God?

So the stars and satan's angels are two different groups?

Are satan's angels men?

[Craig]

I won't deny I'm possible brainwashed by fables but I always thought Satan has his own army.

Yes and according to the same passage everyone uses to say that 1/3 of the angels are his army, demonstrates that those 1/3 stars were already flung to earth as the war began. Satan had an army, and it was not any fallen angel of God, it was his own army that invaded heaven.

Stars?  What do stars represent?

Who are satan's angels? 

2 Corinthians 11:11-15
Why? Because I do not love you? God knows I do! And I will keep on doing what I am doing in order to cut the ground from under those who want an opportunity to be considered equal with us in the things they boast about. For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, masquerading as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. It is not surprising, then, if his servants (angels) masquerade as servants (angels) of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve.

You are saying they are not rebellious angels of God?

Correct.

So the stars and satan's angels are two different groups?

Correct.

What were they? They were angels of Satan who had masqueraded as angels of God.

Luke 16:13-18
"No servant can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or else he will be devoted to one and despise the other You cannot serve God and wealth."
Now the Pharisees, who were lovers of money, were listening to all these things and were scoffing at Him.
And He said to them, "You are those who justify yourselves in the sight of men, but God knows your hearts; for that which is highly esteemed among men is detestable in the sight of God.
"The Law and the Prophets were proclaimed until John; since that time the gospel of the kingdom of God has been preached, and everyone is forcing his way into it.
"But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one stroke of a letter of the Law to fail.
"Everyone who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery, and he who marries one who is divorced from a husband commits adultery.

You cannot force your way into the Kingdom of Heaven, God knows our hearts, but many have strove to enter it highly esteemed among men but are detestable in the sight of God.

[Molly]

So if satan's angels are men on earth, how are they fighting Michael and his angels in a war in heaven?

[Craig]

The fallen stars, or fallen angels, were not talking about Celestial Beings who belonged to the Kingdom of Heaven. It was talking about men, men who had put themselves in places of power in the guise of messengers of God, but they themselves were in fact Children of the devil.

John 8:41-48
You are doing the things your own father does."
"We are not illegitimate children," they protested. "The only Father we have is God himself."
Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me. Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me! Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don't you believe me? He who belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God."

[Craig]

So if satan's angels are men on earth, how are they fighting Michael and his angels in a war in heaven?

See, this is where everyone gets in trouble. They forget what they are reading is a parable, a prophesy masked by symbols and metaphors.

You do not know what Michael and his angels are? Michael is the protecting Prince of true Israel, He is Jesus Christ, and His angels are the true prophets of God and those who carry His testimony.

Micha'El, One Who Is Like God.
Isra'El, He Who Rules With God

Daniel 12:1-3
"At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered. Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting shame. Those who are wise will shine like the brightness of the heavens, and those who lead many to righteousness, like the stars for ever and ever.

It is quite simple and very straight forward. One just has to learn not to be enslaved in their minds to the myths and legends, vain imaginations of men who do not understand anything.

Romans 9:3-7
For I could wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, those of my own race, the people of Israel. Theirs is the adoption as sons; theirs the divine glory, the covenants, the receiving of the law, the temple worship and the promises. Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of Christ, who is God over all, forever praised! Amen. It is not as though God's word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel.

Please do not take offense to my matter of fact statements, I understand for some this is difficult to understand and that is not their fault, but I am convinced without any deviation concerning this. My advise is do not let your imagination lead you astray.

[Molly]

You do not know what Michael and his angels are? Michael is the protecting Prince of true Israel, He is Jesus Christ, and His angels are the true prophets of God and those who carry His testimony.

Micha'El, One Who Is Like God.
Isra'El, He Who Rules With God

wow. So you are saying there are no such things as angels [with wings]?  Just men?  What about that great cloud of witnesses we have?  Who are they?   The spirits of men made perfect?  C"mon, I know something is out there watching over me.   Too much evidence for it.   :Sparkletooth:

I think I mentioned that I studied with the JW's for a while.  They said that Jesus was Michael, too, but from that they concluded that Jesus was an angel.  Well, I knew Jesus wasn't an angel but in reading about Michael, I could see how they would conclude he was Michael. 

Who is Gabriel?

18Zechariah asked the angel, "How can I be sure of this? I am an old man and my wife is well along in years."

19The angel answered, "I am Gabriel. I stand in the presence of God, and I have been sent to speak to you and to tell you this good news. 20And now you will be silent and not able to speak until the day this happens, because you did not believe my words, which will come true at their proper time."

--Luke 1



"Gabriel"

G1043
Γαβριήλ
Gabriēl
gab-ree-ale'
Of Hebrew origin [H1403]; Gabriel, an archangel: - Gabriel.




H1403
גּבריאל
gabrîy'êl
gab-ree-ale'
From H1397 and H410; man of God; Gabriel, an archangel: - Gabriel.

[Pierac]

Craig is correct in that Satan is not a fallen Angel.


Gen 3:1   Now the serpent was more crafty than any other beast of the field that the LORD God had made.

1 Jo 3:8  Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil.

Joh 8:44  You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and has nothing to do with the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

Job 26:13  By his spirit he hath garnished the heavens; his hand hath formed the crooked serpent.

Rev 20:2  And he seized the dragon, that ancient(744) serpent, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years,

G744   αρχαιος   archaios

Thayer Definition:
1)   that has been from the beginning,  original


Job 1:6  Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came among them. 7  The LORD said to Satan, "From where do you come?" Then Satan answered the LORD and said, "From roaming about on the earth and walking around on it." 8  The LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered My servant Job? For there is no one like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, fearing God and turning away from evil."

Now notice the conversation between God and Satan. Does this sound like two beings who did great battle? With God barely winning at the lost of 1/3 of his Angels? No indeed, Satan is nothing more than another one of Gods creatures! Notice the conversation in Job, it is God who is in total control!


Paul

[martincisneros]

The fallen stars, or fallen angels, were not talking about Celestial Beings who belonged to the Kingdom of Heaven. It was talking about men, men who had put themselves in places of power in the guise of messengers of God, but they themselves were in fact Children of the devil.

So, was the War in Heaven in Revelation 12 the birth of the false teachers in the Church (2John 9)??  It would make sense 'cause by the mid-50s or so the Gospel of Thomas was written, according to many, many scholars, and then the rest of the ""Christian"" gnostic texts in the 2nd century, which totally throws out the message of the early disciples in Acts where they were evidently teaching about the Anointed One and His Anointing and how that through His work at the Cross and seating at God's right hand those of us who've embraced His Lordship are now the Body of the Anointing in the earth, the pillar and foundation of the truth (1Timothy 3:15; 1John 2:6, 20; 4:17; 3John 11).  With the introduction of gnosticism into Christianity, then suddenly it was about separation from the world and the church (i.e. monasticism), transcending the body and self to attain mastery of the creation (replacing the truth of the Name, the new creation, and the baptism with the Holy Spirit and fire which isn't about overcoming trials but receiving a free gift of absolute power), etc.

[Molly]

The fallen stars, or fallen angels, were not talking about Celestial Beings who belonged to the Kingdom of Heaven. It was talking about men, men who had put themselves in places of power in the guise of messengers of God, but they themselves were in fact Children of the devil.

So, was the War in Heaven in Revelation 12 the birth of the false teachers in the Church (2John 9)??  It would make sense 'cause by the mid-50s or so the Gospel of Thomas was written, according to many, many scholars, and then the rest of the ""Christian"" gnostic texts in the 2nd century, which totally throws out the message of the early disciples in Acts where they were evidently teaching about the Anointed One and His Anointing and how that through His work at the Cross and seating at God's right hand those of us who've embraced His Lordship are now the Body of the Anointing in the earth, the pillar and foundation of the truth (1Timothy 3:15; 1John 2:6, 20; 4:17; 3John 11).  With the introduction of gnosticism into Christianity, then suddenly it was about separation from the world and the church (i.e. monasticism), transcending the body and self to attain mastery of the creation (replacing the truth of the Name, the new creation, and the baptism with the Holy Spirit and fire which isn't about overcoming trials but receiving a free gift of absolute power), etc.

That's very interesting.  The focus was changed from acting in the world to acting apart from the world?  Is that what you are saying?

What is that scorpion looking thing on your chest? :mshock:

[Craig]

You do not know what Michael and his angels are? Michael is the protecting Prince of true Israel, He is Jesus Christ, and His angels are the true prophets of God and those who carry His testimony.

Micha'El, One Who Is Like God.
Isra'El, He Who Rules With God

wow. So you are saying there are no such things as angels [with wings]? 

There is no such thing as angels with wings, those are manifestations of the imaginations of men as they try to describe the spirits of God that they are witnessing. That doesn't mean they are not real, that is just how our minds interpret the information we are seeing. Pay attention, angels of God do exist, both as spirits of God and as men of God.

Hebrews 1:14
Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?

Just men?  What about that great cloud of witnesses we have?  Who are they?  The spirits of men made perfect?

Hebrew 12:1
Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses....

What great cloud of witnesses?

Hebrews 11:1,2 -- 39,40; 12:1-3
Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see. This is what the ancients were commended for.

...Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Sarah, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, Israel (the People who passed the Red Sea as on dry land), Israel (the People who marched around Jericho for seven days), Rahab, Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, David, Samuel, all the prophets, the martyrs for Christ....

These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised. God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.

Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles, and let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us. Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before him endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. Consider him who endured such opposition from sinful men, so that you will not grow weary and lose heart.

C"mon, I know something is out there watching over me.   Too much evidence for it.   :Sparkletooth:

There is. God is watching over you and you have been given the Holy Spirit as a deposit on things to come along with every person who was justified by faith carrying with them the oracles of God and His testimony.

I think I mentioned that I studied with the JW's for a while.  They said that Jesus was Michael, too, but from that they concluded that Jesus was an angel.  Well, I knew Jesus wasn't an angel but in reading about Michael, I could see how they would conclude he was Michael.  

Michael is only spoken of in prophesy as the symbolic prince protector of Israel, the Angel of the Lord who carved out the Law by His finger, and appeared to Moses in the burning bush, etc. Michael is not an 'angel' with wings, He is a symbolic representation of Jesus Christ. In other words, Michael is the code word for the Man, Jesus Christ, God manifest in the flesh.

Gabri'El means "Hero of God".

[Craig]

So, was the War in Heaven in Revelation 12 the birth of the false teachers in the Church (2John 9)?? 

The pharisee and teachers of the Law who had not adhered to the things of God, but their own appetites, and the false teachers and prophets who came into the church known as Judiasers and Spiritualists (Gnostics) who came with a different gospel that was not a Gospel at all. The war in Heaven was not a literal war, as Pierac has pointed out. Ironically, it is due to this war, that we have this story of a war between demons and angels in a mystical realm of Ether. The reason, is to misdirect the true enemy that is within the Church. The very enemy many here had recognized and have been talking about.

[martincisneros]

What is that scorpion looking thing on your chest? :mshock:

:eek: Thanks for letting me know!!!  I didn't realize that I had a spider on my chest!!! :eek:

:coolsmile:

[martincisneros]

must have crawled on me while I was asleep earlier after getting home from church :icon_jokercolor:

[DeeDee]

okay so the way I understand this now is, satan comes from the earth - God asked him where he comes from and he said he walks in and out and around the earth (something in those lines). So God therefore did not create him - if he did he would not ask him where he came from. Now this creates a few questions. Why has'nt God destroyed satan yet? Can't God for some reason destroy satan? If God can't destroy satan (for some reason), maybe satans "hell" is real - Won't be God's doing or God that wants to see us perish, it would be satan. Or how do you see it?

[jabcat]

DeeDee, Everything else taught in this thread about Satan may be very true, not an indepth area of study for me...Along with that though, my thoughts are that God created Satan and he's a tool to serve God's purposes for a period of time before he too is redeemed/reconciled. 

Romans 11:36  For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever. Amen.

John 1:3 All things were made through him; and without him was not anything made that hath been made.

And Colossians 1:20 says all things will be reconciled.  The 'all' there, as I understand it, means the heavens, earth and everything in them....

Admittedly, I haven't studied this topic ad infinitum, but right now that's my  :2c:....:dunno2:

[firstborn888]

Remember "heaven" simply means 'raised up' or 'high place' (our word heave). Ruling authorities are 'high'. Imaginations sometimes 'rule'. The hard thing is to get the religious terminology out of our thinking.

Angel means 'messenger'. John the Baptist is called that "Behold - I send my angel (messenger) before you". Messengers don't have wings. Cherubims and seraphims are symbollic 'winged' creatures mentioned but are NOT sent with messages. The wings on messengers are just church mythology.   

[martincisneros]

So, everytime a bell rings, an angel doesn't get his wings.  So sad... :sigh: