I Thessalonians 4:15-18 question.

[WhiteWings]

Shortly is 2000 years?

I suppose if 1000 years is a day to you, yes. :winkgrin:

That's only two  days.  :dontknow:

When was the Book of Revelation written?  Wasn't it around 90ad?

What if I say Revelation began long ago :laughing7:
Daniel wrote about the man of gold, silver, etc.
Those where kingdoms.
The beasts of Revelation are the same kingdoms. The Roman beast/empire died in 1453 AD.
So perhaps Revelation spans much more than 7 years.

I've seen that interpretation--it's very interesting.

And likely true...
^ACVRevelation 1
9 I John, your brother and companion in the tribulation and kingdom and perseverance in Christ Jesus, happened to be on the isle that is called Patmos because of the word of God, and because of the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Unless John is still alive tribulation started in his lifetime nearly 2  millennia ago.

More of the same:
^EBRRevelation 2
9 I know thy tribulation, and destitution, nevertheless, thou art, rich, and the profane speech from among them who affirm that they themselves are, Jews, and they are not, but a synagogue of Satan.

^EBRRevelation 2
10 Do not fear the things which thou art about to suffer. Lo! the adversary is about to cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried, and may have tribulation ten days. Become thou faithful until death, and I will give thee the crown of life.

[WhiteWings]

Israel was in the wilderness for 40 years.  => Their tribulation/testing
Jesus was in the wilderness for 40 days. => His tribulation/testing
Church will be in the wilderness/tribulation for 40 jubilees. 40*49=1960 years

^EBRActs 7
38 The same, is he that came to be in the assembly in the desert, with the messenger who was speaking with him in Mount Sinai, and with our fathers, he who welcomed living utterances, to give unto us:

Tribulation seems to be a ongoing process

[CHB]

John tells us that "the time is near," even as he wrote in verse 1 saying these events "must shortly come to pass." John's revelation is not something afar off, like the one given in Daniel 12:9 and 13. In fact, the book of Revelation is an extension of the book of Daniel.

Daniel 2 reveals the basic outline of history, telling us about the four world kingdoms (Babylon, Persia, Greece, and Rome) that would dominate Palestine and the Western World. This came through a prophetic dream given to the Babylonian king Nebuchadnezzar, who saw an image with a head of gold (Babylon) having silver arms (Media-Persia), bronze belly (Greece), and legs of iron (Rome). Nebuchadnezzar also saw a stone crush the image on its feet and then grind the entire image into powder that blew away in the wind. Daniel interpreted the stone to be a "kingdom" (Dan. 2:44) that God would establish, which would never be destroyed.

In Daniel 7 the prophet himself received divine revelation of these kingdoms. This time they were pictured as "four great beasts" (Dan. 7:3). The first was a lion with eagle's wings (Babylon's national symbol, as depicted on many of their monuments). The second beast was a bear—representing Media-Persia, with Persia being the stronger of the two, i.e., "raised up on one side." The third beast was a leopard with wings to indicate swiftness—representing the Grecian Empire, whose leader, Alexander the Great, conquered that portion of the world all the way to India. The fourth beast was terrifying and was different from the other beasts. It had "large iron teeth" (Dan. 7:7).

Within the prophecy of this iron-toothed beast, a little horn (power) came up, having eyes like a man and "a mouth uttering great boasts" (Dan. 7:8). This is generally recognized as being an extension of the beast with iron teeth—that is, an extension of Rome's power. The futurists view this as a future "Antichrist." The historicists view this as an extension of the Roman power base that arose after the fall of the Western Roman Empire in 476 A.D. In other words, they view it as the Roman Church system itself, which filled the power vacuum with the collapse of Imperial Rome.

The Roman Empire itself had been divided in 395 A.D. The East was ruled by emperors based in Constantinople. The West was ruled by emperors based in Rome. When Rome fell in 476 A.D., the Eastern Roman Empire continued for nearly a thousand years until Constantinople fell in 1453 A.D. Hence, this iron-toothed beast, or the "iron legs" of the image in king Nebuchadnezzar's dream, extended from 63 B.C. to at least 1453 A.D. The little horn was said to come out of this beast, "uttering great boasts." In Revelation 13:5 we are given more details of this little horn, but John writes that this beast had "a mouth speaking arrogant words and blasphemies."

Who is this "little horn" that comes up out of the Roman Empire? The futurist view is that this is a future "Antichrist," and that there was a long "gap" between the fall of the Roman Empire and the rise of a new Roman Empire that is somehow distinct from the Roman Catholic Church.

The historicist view is that this revived Roman Empire is the Roman Catholic Church itself, which ultimately claimed authority over all the nations of the world. Pope Pius IX himself declared in the nineteenth century that the Roman Church was the inheritor of Rome's authority after the Western Roman Empire fell in 476 A.D. The pope made this claim after the Italian forces of King Victor Emmanuel united Italy (1870), taking the Papal States and even Rome itself from Vatican control. We read this in R.W. Thompson's book, Footprints of the Jesuits, page 316,

"If Pius IX had been less perturbed, and calm enough to reason logically, he might have observed how fatal to his own conclusion was an important confession made by him in this official allocution. Without seeming to comprehend its full meaning and force, he declared it to be 'a singular arrangement of Divine providence' that the pope 'was invested with his civil authority' at the time of the fall of the Roman Empire; that is, during the latter half of the fifth century, and nearly five hundred years after the beginning of the Christian era. . . . His object was to show that when the Roman Empire fell, the temporal power was divinely added to the spiritual power of the pope, and, therefore, that it would violate the divine law if he were deprived of the crown of temporal royalty, which the popes of the primitive times did not possess."

Whereas Daniel gives us a broad perspective of all four world kingdoms leading up to the (Stone) Kingdom of God, John's Revelation focuses primarily upon the fourth world kingdom (including the "little horn" extension of Rome) and how it will be replaced by the Kingdom of God. Thus, the book of Revelation is more focused and includes greater detail of the past 2,000 years since the rise of the Roman Empire. Rome took control of Judea in 63 B.C., and as we will see later in our study, John's prophecy begins in 31 B.C. just as Rome was being transformed from a Republic to an Empire.

I agree with this. I also think what you said is true about Revelation beginning long ago. If you look up the referrences in Revelation you will find a lot of them are in the Old Testament.

WhiteWings, you have given much insight into all of this, thanks.

I don't know what else is to be fulfilled but isn't it fun and revealing to search and look and try to understand all of these things? I know, it is God who opens the mind.

CHB

[WhiteWings]

I agree with this. I also think what you said is true about Revelation beginning long ago. If you look up the referrences in Revelation you will find a lot of them are in the Old Testament.

Maybe tribulation started when Adam was kicked out of the Garden of Eden.

WhiteWings, you have given much insight into all of this, thanks.

At your service :hihat: On esatisfied reader; that what I'm doing it for. :winkgrin:

I don't know what else is to be fulfilled but isn't it fun and revealing to search and look and try to understand all of these things? I know, it is God who opens the mind.

By now you (should) know I'm a number/pattern geek. I think I'm very close to the truth that any theory/doctrine not firmly rooted in the OT is not even worth  :2c:
If you say OT you say feasts and rules.


Also take a peek here: http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/book_revelation/the_unveiling_jesus_christ_9679.0.html

[Molly]

And likely true...

Agreed.  God works in the context of history.  There is history, and then there is the truth.

Tribulation seems to be a ongoing process

Agreed.

If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first.
--John 16:18

All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.
--Mat 10:22

EBRRevelation 2
9 I know thy tribulation, and destitution, nevertheless, thou art, rich, and the profane speech from among them who affirm that they themselves are, Jews, and they are not, but a synagogue of Satan.

Here's a clue. 

Church will be in the wilderness/tribulation for 40 jubilees. 40*49=1960 years

Can't we come up with a number from that?  The church is no longer in the wilderness?

Tribulation seems to be a ongoing process

I think also we repeat these steps in our own lives.
"Ontogeny recapitulates phylogeny," as they say.

[Molly]

Maybe tribulation started when Adam was kicked out of the Garden of Eden.

Agreed.


14And the LORD God said unto the serpent,...
15... I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.



Revelation 12:17
And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

[micah7:9]

Rev 1:1  A revelation of Jesus Christ, that God gave to him, to shew to his servants what things it behoveth to come to pass quickly; and he did signify it , having sent through his messenger to his servant John,

It is my reasoning and understanding that when the indiviual soul, human being, saved by Grace, and Grace is working within, that "to come to pass quickly(shortly)" is when the Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the End, allows us, His servants, His Temple to see what John saw and it is revealed, uncovered, then "must needs (I say will) come to pass with speed,"
That is when that last Book begins to work in the born again mind of His Gen.1:27 man, male and female, them will begin to be finsihed, complete, perfect, mature man.
Rom 8:19  For the earnest expectation of the creation waiteth for the revealing of the sons of God.
But then again its me  :sigh:

Peace and Love Through Jesus

[Beloved Servant]

Humanity isn't a race. It's a state of mind called compassion.

Exceedingly beautiful.

[CHB]

Church will be in the wilderness/tribulation for 40 jubilees. 40*49=1960 years

Starting from when and ending where?

CHB

[micah7:9]

Humanity isn't a race. It's a state of mind called compassion.

Exceedingly beautiful.

Exceedingly beautiful.

[Beloved Servant]

I could cry.

[WhiteWings]

Church will be in the wilderness/tribulation for 40 jubilees. 40*49=1960 years

Starting from when and ending where?

CHB

Not very sure but this are my thoughts:
Read THIS message about Jesus representing 2 goats.
Church had it's baptism at Pentecost. When exactly the church' clock started ticking is is hard to say. Firstly we have the debate in which year that Pentecost was. Maybe the clock started ticking at Pentecost or maybe when the Temple was destroyed. But I think in God's eye's the Temple became totally irrelevant when Jesus made His Lamb sacrifice and likely even before that when He made the goat sacrifice. The old system died at His baptism. Or 40 days after if you wish.

[WhiteWings]

Let's assume 30 AD baptism as a starting point. 40*49=1960 + 30 = 1990 AD

^EBRRevelation 12
14 And there were given unto the woman the two wings of the great eagle, that she might fly into the desert, into her place,––where she is nourished, a season and seasons and half a season, from the face of the serpent.

That's 3.5 years. If we take a 360 day year that's 1260 days. Using a year for a day it's 1260 years.
Some say the woman (=church) fled into the wilderness when Constantine established the Roman church. Could be but I'm missing the number 40.

[cmksiu2005]

Hi all. Sorry that I didn't post a reply earlier, the past couple of days have been busy. Regarding the book of Revelation, I think that it was written before 70 AD and not 96 AD. For one thing the temple is still standing:

Re 11:1 ¶ A reed like a rod was given to me. Someone said, "Rise, and measure God's temple, and the altar, and those who worship in it.
Re 11:2 Leave out the court which is outside of the temple, and don't measure it, for it has been given to the nations. They will tread the holy city under foot for forty-two months.

Another thing is that if this was written after 70 AD, why is Jerusalem's destruction not mentioned? Furthermore why is the temple's destruction not mentioned?

Mr 13:1 ¶ As he went out of the temple, one of his disciples said to him, "Teacher, see what kind of stones and what kind of buildings!"
Mr 13:2 Jesus said to him, "Do you see these great buildings? There will not be left here one stone on another, which will not be thrown down."
Mr 13:3 As he sat on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter, James, John, and Andrew asked him privately,
Mr 13:4 "Tell us, when will these things be? What is the sign that these things are all about to be fulfilled?"

John was probably present or got wind of Christ's statement in verse two because in the next verse, he was one of the 4 disciples questioning him privately. As the author of Revelation, I think he would of mentioned this very specific fulfilment if it had been written after 70 AD. I certainly don't have all the answers on everything regarding this (the 144,000 bit always confused me, but that's probably a whole thread right there).

Regarding the rapture, I still tend to think it's future because Paul mentions:

1Co 15:51 ¶ Behold, I tell you a mystery. We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed,
1Co 15:52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we will be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Co 15:54 But when this corruptible will have put on incorruption, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then what is written will happen: "Death is swallowed up in victory."

I wonder if Paul expected this to happen in his lifetime? Any thoughts?

Also, is anyone familiar with J.Stuart Russell's book about this stuff? I've heard great things about it even though I heard he comes to some controversial conclusions..

Happy Memorial Day to everyone BTW!

Blessings,
Chris

[Cardinal]

I think I'm very close to the truth that any theory/doctrine not firmly rooted in the OT is not even worth  :2c:

:cloud9: I'm already of that opinion, too..... :thumbsup: He went to a great deal of trouble to establish the patterns so that even blind men could see it  :laughing7:

[WhiteWings]

Yeah, and one day I'm no longer deaf and hear trumpets.  :laughing7:

[Beloved Servant]

WhiteWings — you are a trumpet!

[thinktank]

Yeah like Beethoven, plays outstanding music but deaf to the beautiful sound of the footsteps of almighty God.

Blessed are those who are hard of hearing for they shall hear God.

[WhiteWings]

Maybe I heart the footsteps for 2-3 seconds last week.

[Molly]

Maybe the footsteps for 2-3 seconds last week.

Isaiah 52:7 (King James Version)

7How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings, that publisheth peace; that bringeth good tidings of good, that publisheth salvation; that saith unto Zion, Thy God reigneth!

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: You know, sometimes the Lord walks thru HIS gardens, and because we don't expect Him in that form, we miss it. I've heard His Spirit speak out of the "unsaved" and they had no idea, but I HEARD the "sound" of His voice coming thru them. There is no where He is not; we just have to fine tune our hearing and lay down respect of persons. My  :2c:

[WhiteWings]

Church will be in the wilderness/tribulation for 40 jubilees. 40*49=1960 years

Starting from when and ending where?

CHB

Just found something...
Ephesus:      Desirable/permitted                          (33-64 AD)
Smyrna:       Bitter or Myrrh                             (64-313 AD)
Pergamos:     Married to Power/height/elevation          (313-529 AD)
Thyatira:     Castle of the Goddess/odor of affliction  (529-1517 AD)
Sardis:       Precious Stone, Remnant/red ones         (1517-1776 AD)
Philadelphia: Brotherly Love                           (1776-1914 AD)
Laodicea:     Power of the Laity/justice of the people (1914-1993 AD)


OT Church    NT Church       Characteristics of Both 
Moses          Ephesus          Refusing to hear their first love 
Korah          Smyrna           The Rebellious Church 
Balaam         Pergamos         The Paganized Church
Jezebel        Thyatira         The Persecuted Church 
Remnant        Sardis           The Remnant of Grace Church 
Hezekiah       Philadelphia     The Missionary Church 
Captivity      Laodicea         The Captive Church

NT Church Spirit Given Reward Ephesus Spirit of the Lord Tree of Life Smyrna Understanding Crown of Life Pergamos Counsel White Stone Thyatira Knowledge Morning Star Sardis Wisdom White Clothes Philadelphia Strength (Might) Pillar in Temple Laodicea Fear of the Lord Sit in Throne

[WhiteWings]

^EBRRevelation 2
10 Do not fear the things which thou art about to suffer. Lo! the adversary is about to cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried, and may have tribulation ten days. Become thou faithful until death, and I will give thee the crown of life.


The "ten days" of persecution that John mentions in Rev. 2:10 are generally taken to include the final ten years of the most horrible persecution of Diocletian from 303 to 313 AD. However, he was only the tenth emperor to make such persecution a policy of government. There were ten Roman Emperors who persecuted Christians as a matter of public policy. These may be thought of as ten "days" or times of persecution and tribulation for this church. They are as follows:

1. Nero (64 AD)
2. Domitian (95) 
3. Trajan (107)
4. Hadrian (127)
5. Aurelius (165)
6. Severus (202)
7. Maximus (235)
8. Decius (249)
9. Valerianus (257)
10. Diocletian (303)

[Nathan]

Had to mention this beings no one else has . . .just preached on this very passage last Sunday . . .the original post is what I'm referring to here.  The issue with the entire passage of 1 Thessalonians 4 is . . .it's been cherry picked.  Someone's come in, snatched one piece out of what Paul was sharing and left the rest of what he said as though he never said it.  But if you read what he said BEFORE you get to the famous part, you'll see the topic has nothing at all to do with what the church has taught us.

9 But as touching brotherly love ye need not that I write unto you: for ye yourselves are taught of God to love one another.
10And indeed ye do it toward all the brethren which are in all Macedonia: but we beseech you, brethren, that ye increase more and more;
11And that ye study to be quiet, and to do your own business, and to work with your own hands, as we commanded you;
12That ye may walk honestly toward them that are without, and that ye may have lack of nothing.
13But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope

First, there is no break of subject matter between verse 9 and the rest of the chapter . . .the topic is not about end times, the rapture, or anything of the kind . . .it's about brotherly love toward both those that are with and those that are without the knowledge of truth in their hearts.  And those that are without are the same as those that are asleep.  He's not talking about literally dead, he's talking about spiritually dead . . .spiritually without life . . .he's telling us that even though they may be spiritually dead, there is still hope because they to, are going to experience a resurrection.

14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
Think about how the kingdom works . .. WE which are ALIVE and will remains so as Christ appears to all of us, but we'll not keep them from experiencing the same thing.  We'll not declare those who are without to be hopeless because it's only by God's grace that "we" are alive ourselves.  In the kingdom, the first are last . .. WE who are alive NOW are the first . . .but those who are asleep, we'll not prevent them, we'll not be ahead of them . . .because if they're last here, they're first in the kingdom . . .just because we're alive in Christ and they're not, doesn't make us ahead or better than them who are asleep.

16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Descending from heaven with a shoult . . .sounds like another upper room experience.  A shout is a proclamation.  Whenever God moved in Ezekiel's vision as he rode upon a cherubim, there would be a shout in the same manner.  The dead in Christ now become first because again, in the kingdom, the first shall be last and the last shall be first.  And as we see them resurrected in truth and life, we become caught up in their experience and we all celebrate in the Lord together when it happens.  These words are to be a comfort, not an alarm.  Not a warning . . .not a battle cry to the world, but a celebrative word to all who hear.

The topic never changed, it was all about displaying brotherly love to both those who are alive and those who are asleep spiritually speaking.

[sheila]

   

   what Paul was discoursing on was..this....those spiritually alive in flesh being caught up..to meet the Lord in the air[Rev 20;9,10]

   Rev 21...I saw the Holy city[new Jerusalem] coming down out of heaven from God.[that is where they are caught up to]

  at the time that this occurs everthing that causes sin in the kingdom will have been removed...false prophet,beast[corruptible flesh and the final adversary

  that came against the 'camp' of the Holy city

   that camp of the Holy city has already been deliverd from the false prophet and beast and Babylon...corruptible flesh and the adversary released into

the earth is the last enemy....fire comes down from  heaven and destroys that final enemy....thus the finished work of God...perfection the corruptible

has put on immortality...deathless life