1Th 4:15 For this we declare to you on the Lord's own authority--that we who are alive and continue on earth until the Coming of the Lord, shall certainly not forestall those who shall have previously passed away.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord Himself will come down from Heaven with a loud word of command, and with an archangel's voice and the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
1Th 4:17 Afterwards we who are alive and are still on earth will be caught up in their company amid clouds to meet the Lord in the air.
1Th 4:18 And so we shall be with the Lord for ever. Therefore encourage one another with these words.
I am pretty new here to the forums and first off want to thank those who gave me such a warm welcome! I really appreciate it! I had a passage I wanted to discuss and get some opinions on. I used to believe that most New Testament prophecy was yet to be fulfilled. After listening to and reading some stuff by Ken Gentry and Gary Demar online and in various articles and such, the argument that most New Testament prophecy has been fulfilled made a lot more sense to me. I also checked out Gary Amirault's rapture you missed audo here on the site and that seemed to fall into the same line of thought. How does this passage fit? It seems like this passage hasn't been fulfilled yet. Any thoughts?
P.S. Where does Matthew 24:40-41 fall into all of this?
Chris
Hi Chris,
Many may not see this the same as I do. First off, who is Paul speaking to (1Thess. 1:1)? I think Paul was speaking to those who lived at the time Paul lived, not 2000 years in the future. Also, Paul does say "WE which are alive and remain"...he includes himself here. You have to ask yourself, who, what, where, when, to rightly divide the word.
(1Thess. 5:2-4) For YOURSELVES know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. (Verse 4) BUT YE, BRETHERN, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake YOU as a thief.
Some say that the apostles thought that Jesus would return in their day but they were mistaken. I don't think that is right because Jesus said the Holy Spirit would "LEAD THEM INTO ALL TRUTH". I know that the apostles did learn more as time went on but this was a big event, more than any other, why would they be lead to believe something that wasn't true?
Just my thoughts on this.
CHB
Yes, well, this is the rapture verse, isn't it?
It includes me, too. "Then we which are alive and remain"...
That contains a hope for everyone reading it in the present tense. It includes all of us which are alive and remain...
"shall be caught up"
G726
ἁρπάζω
harpazō
har-pad'-zo
From a derivative of G138; to seize (in various applications): - catch (away, up), pluck, pull, take (by force).
with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air
OK. I could go for that. The world is getting darker, but we are the children of light. When he is coming for us at the end of the age, I think we will know it.
51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
--1 Cor 15
Quote from: Molly on May 27, 2011, 07:18:26 AM
Yes, well, this is the rapture verse, isn't it?
It includes me, too. "Then we which are alive and remain"...
That contains a hope for everyone reading it in the present tense. It includes all of us which are alive and remain...
Hey Molly,
I am not saying you are wrong, it is a possibility that you are right but there is a possibility that I am right, maybe neither of us are right, I am not sure.
I question a rapture because I don't see it in the scriptures.
Are you sure you are included in this?
Notice that Paul said "WE WHICH ARE ALIVE AND REMAIN". He was speaking as though he along with others at that time would be alive when Christ returned. Why didn't Paul say "ALL or EVERYONE" instead of "WE and YOU", that way there would have been no question as to who he was talking about. If I told my family that "WE would be going such and such" I don't think anyone else would think they were included.
Go back to the start of the book and read it as if it isn't about you and see what you come up with.
I could be wrong about this, am not saying that this is right, it is just the way I understand it as of now. A couple of years ago, I couldn't see this at all. Once I started reading the New Testament as if it was for Israel and that time frame I saw a lot of things that I never saw before.
CHB
Like always I have an altenative view :laughing7:
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/members_lounge/both_saints_and_sinners_are_left_rapture..._9653.msg121911.html#msg121911
Hi CHB,
QuoteI am not saying you are wrong, it is a possibility that you are right but there is a possibility that I am right, maybe neither of us are right, I am not sure.
For sure. :thumbsup:
QuoteAre you sure you are included in this?
Notice that Paul said "WE WHICH ARE ALIVE AND REMAIN".
I read the whole NT as though it is written to me. Paul is a living writer, as far as I'm concerned, writing in the present tense. I don't read it as an historical account, the way I might read a first person account of the Revolutionary War, for instance. I read it as the present tense, and apply anything that speaks to me to myself.
As an historical account, did this already happen as Paul describes it? The dead in Christ have already been raised? And those alive in Christ are caught up with them to be with Christ forever? I don't see that as already happening. 70 ad was a destruction of the old system. There has never been another temple or a Levite priesthood or animal sacrifice. That really was done away with in 70ad, which is not something that I take lightly because imagine how amazing it is that it has been impossible for them to reinstate that system in 2000 years.
But this event described in Thess is happening to those in Christ, both dead and living, and it is happening to all of them at the same time--that is, as a group--as the body of Christ. If 70ad described the end of an old world system relating to God's chosen [and the beginning of a new system], this event describes the end of the age because after this event, a new world system will be ushered in, and we will be changed. That's my thinking about it for now.
Isaiah 9:6
... and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Quote from: Molly
I read the whole NT as though it is written to me. Paul is a living writer, as far as I'm concerned, writing in the present tense. I don't read it as an historical account, the way I might read a first person account of the Revolutionary War, for instance. I read it as the present tense, and apply anything that speaks to me to myself.Quote
Molly, this is where I think a lot of people get confused on a lot of things. I look at the Old and New Testament as a historical and a future event. I think you are right about Paul writing in the present tense at times but I also think a lot of what Paul wrote was to those who were living at that time. Just like the sayings of Jesus. Most of the message of Jesus was to Israel because Jesus himself said "I am sent ONLY to the lost sheep of the house of Israel". I think everything in the Bible is an example for us.
Quote from: Molly
As an historical account, did this already happen as Paul describes it? The dead in Christ have already been raised? And those alive in Christ are caught up with them to be with Christ forever? I don't see that as already happening. 70 ad was a destruction of the old system. There has never been another temple or a Levite priesthood or animal sacrifice. That really was done away with in 70ad, which is not something that I take lightly because imagine how amazing it is that it has been impossible for them to reinstate that system in 2000 years.
I think it did happen. Yes, the sacrificial system and temple were done away with in 70AD. What if there has already been a resurrection that happened in John's day? Remember Jesus telling the disciples "what is that to you if he {John} tarry till I come"? There are many scriptures that point to the return of Christ in 70AD. "This generation shall not pass till all be fulfilled". Many other scriptures also.
Quote from: Molly
But this event described in Thess is happening to those in Christ, both dead and living, and it is happening to all of them at the same time--that is, as a group--as the body of Christ. If 70ad described the end of an old world system relating to God's chosen [and the beginning of a new system], this event describes the end of the age because after this event, a new world system will be ushered in, and we will be changed. That's my thinking about it for now.
Right, I agree with what you said here. Don't get me wrong, I still think Christ will return for us just like he did for those of John's day. A new world system was ushered in 70AD. A completely different way of looking at Christianity was introduced by Paul. I think this teaching that Paul came to see is yet for the future and applies to us and not to those of Paul's day because Paul was kept from preaching much about it. It is called the Mystery that was kept hid from the world but was revealed to Paul.
CHB
Here's an interesting study:
The first resurrection and the last trumpet:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PBwIaYee2iI
I agree with most of this one.
http://www.goodnewsarticles.com/Sep06-1.htm
There was a tribulation going on in John's day because he says in (Chapter 1:9) I John, who also am your brother, and companion IN TRIBULATION, and IN THE KINGDOM AND PATIENCE OF JESUS CHRIST.
CHB
Quote from: CHB on May 28, 2011, 10:21:07 AM
I agree with most of this one.
http://www.goodnewsarticles.com/Sep06-1.htm
There was a tribulation going on in John's day because he says in (Chapter 1:9) I John, who also am your brother, and companion IN TRIBULATION, and IN THE KINGDOM AND PATIENCE OF JESUS CHRIST.
CHB
:thumbsup: I know it can be "tricky", but I for one believe it's
very important to be aware of who was being primarily addressed and about what. Along with that, it's
all for our learning and He can teach us and change us with every jot and tittle. :2c:
Quote from: CHB on May 28, 2011, 10:21:07 AM
I agree with most of this one.
http://www.goodnewsarticles.com/Sep06-1.htm
There was a tribulation going on in John's day because he says in (Chapter 1:9) I John, who also am your brother, and companion IN TRIBULATION, and IN THE KINGDOM AND PATIENCE OF JESUS CHRIST.
CHB
That was interesting CHB. He's making the argument that [some of or most of] Mat 24 is referring to 70ad.
But, couldn't that be true, and also not contradict that this passage in 1Thess is referring to a future time?
This part of Mat 24--do you think this has already happened?
Mat 24:30 AndG2532 thenG5119 shall appearG5316 theG3588 signG4592 of theG3588 SonG5207 of manG444 inG1722 heaven:G3772 andG2532 thenG5119 shall allG3956 theG3588 tribesG5443 of theG3588 earthG1093 mourn,G2875 andG2532 they shall seeG3700 theG3588 SonG5207 of manG444 comingG2064 inG1909 theG3588 cloudsG3507 of heavenG3772 withG3326 powerG1411 andG2532 greatG4183 glory.G1391
Mat 24:31 AndG2532 he shall sendG649 hisG846 angelsG32 withG3326 a greatG3173 soundG5456 of a trumpet,G4536 andG2532 they shall gather togetherG1996 hisG848 electG1588 fromG1537 theG3588 fourG5064 winds,G417 fromG575 one endG206 of heavenG3772 toG2193 the other.G206
I'm not CHB, but I'm chiming in lol
Although I believe much of Mt. 24 was fulfilled, I do wonder about that last part. I admit it sounds future.
Here's an article from the TM homepage by Gary on the subject; (Note - before there are screams of "Full Preterism"! :eek:, Gary would be considered a partial preterist, meaning a belief that to varying degrees, some-to-much of scripture has been fulfilled - not all.) I know he also believes there are possibly multiple fulfillments of certain things. :2c:
The Coming of Christ in 70 A.D.
By Gary Amirault
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There are thousands, perhaps millions, of people who, after reading the Bible, have come to the same conclusion to which one of the most famous atheists, Bertrand Russell, came . He felt Jesus couldn't be Who He said He was because the things He and His apostles said would happen in their time, didn't happen. Below are listed a few of the many passages they would point to and say these things were not fulfilled according to the plain reading of the English text. This list comes from a little booklet entitled, "Can God Tell Time," by Don Preston.
Matt. 10:23--Jesus said He would return in the lifetime of His disciples.
Matt. 16:27-28--Jesus said He would return with His angels to judge all men before every one standing there died.
Matt. 24:29-34--Jesus said He would return in the clouds with His angels--in that generation.
Acts 3:19--Peter said Jesus would return when all the Old Covenant prophecies were fulfilled. If the Old Prophesies have not been fulfilled, the Old Covenant is still in effect. (Matthew 5:17-18)
Romans 13:12--Paul said "the day is at hand." That was said 1900 years ago!
1 Cor. 7:28-31--Paul said "the fashion of this world is passing away," and "the time is short." Again, this was stated 1900 years ago to that generation.
Hebrews 9:28, 10:37--The writer said Christ would appear a second time for salvation and then asserted "in a very, very little while He that will come, and will not tarry." Is 1900 years a "little while?"
James 5:7-9--James urged his readers to be faithful "until the coming of the Lord," he says "The coming of the Lord is at hand," and "The judge is standing right at the door."
1 John 2:15-18--John said the world was passing away and "it is the last hour." Again, the last hour was 1900 years ago!
Revelation--this book says no less than ten times that its predictions "must shortly come to pass," were "at hand," were to happen "quickly," there would be "no more delay," etc., etc.
Millions of people have read the Bible and said, "no more delay," "shortly," "quickly," "day is at hand," and "it is the last hour," cannot refer to thousands of years! These people have also had problems with Bible teachers taking scriptures like Daniel's 70 weeks and chopping the last 7 years of the prophecy and separating it by thousands of years from the first 69 weeks! They say if one does this with these kinds of scriptures, then one can turn the Bible into whatever they want.
As a result of Bible teachers twisting scriptures like the ones above and relegating them to our time, many sincere seekers have abandoned Christianity as an institution which declares truth. They have come to the conclusion that since the church teaches that Christ has not yet come back in His second coming, then Jesus and His apostles were false prophets. Therefore, they cannot put their faith and hope in Christianity. In the days ahead, we are going to look at all these scriptures and many more to see if, in fact, they were not fulfilled exactly as stated in the very generation to which Jesus was speaking. We are going to see, Jesus did return to that generation and fulfill everything He and His apostles said was "right at the door."
This world needs light. Many have abandoned any hope in Christianity, not because Jesus Christ missed it, but because many Bible teachers and preachers have missed it, big time! People, you are going to have so much joy seeing the Bible come together like it has never been seen before. We are indeed a blessed people and we are going to be a blessing to the world.
This study will be lengthy and cannot be completely discussed in Dew. The magazine is not designed to do this. We suggest those who want to study this out completely to do the following: 1. Get a copy of Josephus. Many Christian publishers have produced this work. I recommend trying to find an out-of-print version produced by Zondervan publishing edited by Cornfeld. It may be difficult to locate a copy, but it will be worth it if you find it. Most good seminaries will have more than one version of Josephus. He was a Jewish Priest and military commander who was captured by the Romans just prior to the destruction of the Jewish Temple in 70 A.D. 2. Read the section entitled War of the Jews. You will be amazed! 3. Order the tapes produced by Tentmaker entitled The Rapture of 70 A.D.. These tapes capture the history of Israel and Rome from approximately 30 A.D. to 73 A.D. and connect them with the sayings of Jesus and the apostles while tying Josephus into it. 4. Read future sections of Dew that will deal with the subject.
Just a little side remark on the tapes The Rapture of 70 A.D.. We do not teach the "rapture." This title was selected to attract those who do believe in the "any day now rapture." In 70 A.D. when the Jews were trapped in Jerusalem by the Roman Army, a prophet prophesied that God was going to deliver them. He told them to come to the Temple, the House of God and there God was going to "catch them away." There they waited to be "raptured away" by the God of Israel. Read and see their fate as narrated by Josephus:
"A false prophet was the occasion of these people's destruction, who had made a public proclamation in the city that very day, that God commanded them to get up upon the temple, and that there they should receive miraculous signs of their deliverance. Now, there was then a great number of false prophets suborned by the tyrants to impose upon the people, who denounced this to them, that they should wait for deliverance from God; and this was in order to keep them from deserting, and that they might be buoyed up above fear and care by such hopes. Now, a man that is in adversity does easily comply with such promises; for when such a seducer makes him believe that he shall be delivered from those miseries which oppress him, then it is that the patient is full of hopes of such deliverance.
Thus were the miserable people persuaded by these deceivers, and such as belied God himself; while they did not attend, nor give credit, to the signs that were so evident, and did so plainly foretell their future desolation; but like men infatuated, without either eyes to see or minds to consider, did not regard the denunciations that God made to them."
Josephus then gave a list of many supernatural signs that God gave Israel, which they twisted to their own destruction. It is interesting to note those who were deceived into thinking God was going to rapture them were burned in their "House of God" which was full of their riches. Josephus writes:
"They also burnt down the treasury-chambers, in which was immense quantities of money, and an immense number of garments, and other precious goods, there reposited; and, to all in a few words, there it was that the entire riches of the Jews were heaped up together, while the rich people had there built themselves chambers, (to contain such furniture). Their riches and their bodies were burned to ashes and blown away by the wind. I suppose the ashes of their bodies being blown away by the wind could qualify for the term "rapture," or "caught up to meet the Lord in the air," but I don't think those who believe in a "any day now rapture" have this in mind. Who knows, perhaps the escapist mentality of today will meet the same fate. The church is certainly the richest institution materially in the entire world and there are certainly many prophets in the land predicting a "rapture" from the tribulations that are to come upon the world. It has used may trickeries to get people to put their money into the church. I see great similarities between the spiritual state of Israel at the end of its age and the present time which many people seem to feel is the end of the "church age." The key question seems to be the ability to read the signs. The majority of the Jews read the signs wrong, which produced their destruction. There was a small group who read them right. They escaped the destruction and were allowed to enter into a new period of time. The Old had indeed, passed away. They were allowed to make that transition from law to grace. They were the ones who God would use to begin the process of setting up His True kingdom. They left Israel behind and went to the Gentiles. They went to a place named Pella in Syria. They were believers in the Messiah. The above mentioned tape series tells how they escaped.
I am so excited about the things our Father is unveiling for us. We should be grateful to be alive in such a day as this. Truly, we can be messengers of glad tidings. While "church" clings to its buildings, land, and material wealth, you are free to give to the world your spiritual riches in Christ Jesus. Rejoice, ye new heavens and earth!
One thing that I can know just by using common sense and no particular spiritual insight is
1) the kingdoms of this world have not yet become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ
2)the saints are not yet ruling with Christ
3)the government is not yet on his shoulders.
Now I suppose someone could argue that I [and other Christians] am the kingdom being referred to and all of the above refers
to and has been fulfilled in the kingdom of my life. But my paltry little life seems a poor fulfillment of a prophecy that refers to kingdoms and kosmos. If this is all there is, I will be very disappointed because
I think anyone could see that the world in general is still run by Satan.
yeah, I don't know how much there's been, or how much to come
but i do believe there's been some and will be more...we will KNOW it when He is ALL in ALL, and I suspect, we'll know (experience) much in the meantime as well
Quote from: Molly on May 28, 2011, 12:25:59 PM
One thing that I can know just by using common sense and no particular spiritual insight is
1) the kingdoms of this world have not yet become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ
2)the saints are not yet ruling with Christ
3)the government is not yet on his shoulders.
Now I suppose someone could argue that I [and other Christians] am the kingdom being referred to and all of the above refers
to and has been fulfilled in the kingdom of my life. But my paltry little life seems a poor fulfillment of a prophecy that refers to kingdoms and kosmos. If this is all there is, I will be very disappointed because
I think anyone could see that the world in general is still run by Satan.
Revelation 1:1 "must shortly come to pass." . Shortly is 2000 years?
Quote from: wwShortly is 2000 years?
I suppose if 1000 years is a day to you, yes. :winkgrin:
That's only two days. :dontknow:
When was the Book of Revelation written? Wasn't it around 90ad?
Hi All,
I think waht Jabcat posted is pretty much the way I see this. It was only a couple of years ago that I began to see that a lot of scripture had been fulfilled. There us to be a couple of Preterist on this forum and I use to refute and question them a lot. I started looking up everything I could about the fulfillment of prophecy and little by little I started seeing the scriptures in a different light.
I don't think everything has been fulfilled. Here are some of the things that I don't believe have happened yet.
I don't think the knowledge of the Lord has ever filled the earth. (Hab. 2:14) (Isaiah 11:9)
The wolf hasn't dwelled with the lamb, nor the bear and cow feeding together.
The lion eating straw like the ox.
A child playing on the hole of an asp.
They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain.
Chapter 11 of Isaiah.
Everyone living to be 100.
Death will be abolished.
God will wipe away all tears and sorrow and pain.
There will still be a time for the Israelites in the kingdom of God on earth.
Christ will return again, with the saints that were in the first resurrection.
Christ will hand over everything to the Father.
All things will end as we know it now.
I believe parts of Revelation are still in the future.
Every knee will bow and every tongue will confess.
These are just some of the things that I think are yet to happen.
Here is something I have wondered about? (Rev. 19) In verse 10 John says "And I fell at his feet to worship him, And he said unto me, See thou do it not: for I AM THY FELLOWSERVANT, and OF THY BRETHERN THAT HAVE THE TESTIMONY OF JESUS".
I am not positive of anything but it does fit together when you read with these things in mind.
Here are things I have wondered about? Some I am confident of, some I am not.
If Jesus message was only for Israel as he said "wouldn't the Olivet Prophecy pertain to them?
What if Christ came back and got the saints along with the apostles and those who were resurrected when Christ was crucified?They are with him now and when it is time he will come back to earth, set up the kingdom that was promised to Israel. Notice in some of the scriptures where it says he "will return with his saints"? Could this 1000 years or whatever it is, be a time of learning and teaching and that is when the earth will be filled with the knowledge of God?
Paul along with those who understood Paul, will be in heaven teaching the angels, Because paul said "know ye not that we shall judge angels?" If you notice; Paul's name was not included in those who would sit on twelve thrones. Maybe because he was chosen for something else?
Anyway, these are just my thoughts on the whole thing. I am still learning, I may change my mind on some things if proven differently.
CHB
Quote from: Molly on May 28, 2011, 06:44:50 PM
Quote from: wwShortly is 2000 years?
I suppose if 1000 years is a day to you, yes. :winkgrin:
That's only two days. :dontknow:
When was the Book of Revelation written? Wasn't it around 90ad?
What if I say Revelation began long ago :laughing7:
Daniel wrote about the man of gold, silver, etc.
Those where kingdoms.
The beasts of Revelation are the same kingdoms. The Roman beast/empire died in 1453 AD.
So perhaps Revelation spans much more than 7 years.
Quote from: WhiteWings on May 28, 2011, 07:10:40 PM
Quote from: Molly on May 28, 2011, 06:44:50 PM
Quote from: wwShortly is 2000 years?
I suppose if 1000 years is a day to you, yes. :winkgrin:
That's only two days. :dontknow:
When was the Book of Revelation written? Wasn't it around 90ad?
What if I say Revelation began long ago :laughing7:
Daniel wrote about the man of gold, silver, etc.
Those where kingdoms.
The beasts of Revelation are the same kingdoms. The Roman beast/empire died in 1453 AD.
So perhaps Revelation spans much more than 7 years.
I've seen that interpretation--it's very interesting.
We do seem to see history repeating itself again--the [Holy] Roman empire revives with the European union,
the Ottoman empire is reviving as we speak. These things seem to be able to survive a deadly wound
and come back to life.
Personally, I'm getting pretty tired of it, myself. It's time for humanity to move on.
Quote from: Molly on May 28, 2011, 07:22:41 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on May 28, 2011, 07:10:40 PM
Quote from: Molly on May 28, 2011, 06:44:50 PM
Quote from: wwShortly is 2000 years?
I suppose if 1000 years is a day to you, yes. :winkgrin:
That's only two days. :dontknow:
When was the Book of Revelation written? Wasn't it around 90ad?
What if I say Revelation began long ago :laughing7:
Daniel wrote about the man of gold, silver, etc.
Those where kingdoms.
The beasts of Revelation are the same kingdoms. The Roman beast/empire died in 1453 AD.
So perhaps Revelation spans much more than 7 years.
I've seen that interpretation--it's very interesting.
I would say: bring the info into this thread. I'll dig up some info when I'm finished posting in another thread
QuoteWe do seem to see history repeating itself again--the Roman empire revives with the European union,
the Ottoman empire is reviving as we speak. These things seem to be able to survive a deadly wound
and come back to life.
I think there is just one empire that keeps reincarnating. Babylon.
QuotePersonally, I'm getting pretty tired of it, myself. It's time for humanity to move on.
We are moving on! New types of weaponry are developed as we speak....
John tells us that "the time is near," even as he wrote in verse 1 saying these events "must shortly come to pass." John's revelation is not something afar off, like the one given in Daniel 12:9 and 13. In fact, the book of Revelation is an extension of the book of Daniel.
Daniel 2 reveals the basic outline of history, telling us about the four world kingdoms (Babylon, Persia, Greece, and Rome) that would dominate Palestine and the Western World. This came through a prophetic dream given to the Babylonian king Nebuchadnezzar, who saw an image with a head of gold (Babylon) having silver arms (Media-Persia), bronze belly (Greece), and legs of iron (Rome). Nebuchadnezzar also saw a stone crush the image on its feet and then grind the entire image into powder that blew away in the wind. Daniel interpreted the stone to be a "kingdom" (Dan. 2:44) that God would establish, which would never be destroyed.
In Daniel 7 the prophet himself received divine revelation of these kingdoms. This time they were pictured as "four great beasts" (Dan. 7:3). The first was a lion with eagle's wings (Babylon's national symbol, as depicted on many of their monuments). The second beast was a bear—representing Media-Persia, with Persia being the stronger of the two, i.e., "raised up on one side." The third beast was a leopard with wings to indicate swiftness—representing the Grecian Empire, whose leader, Alexander the Great, conquered that portion of the world all the way to India. The fourth beast was terrifying and was different from the other beasts. It had "large iron teeth" (Dan. 7:7).
Within the prophecy of this iron-toothed beast, a little horn (power) came up, having eyes like a man and "a mouth uttering great boasts" (Dan. 7:8). This is generally recognized as being an extension of the beast with iron teeth—that is, an extension of Rome's power. The futurists view this as a future "Antichrist." The historicists view this as an extension of the Roman power base that arose after the fall of the Western Roman Empire in 476 A.D. In other words, they view it as the Roman Church system itself, which filled the power vacuum with the collapse of Imperial Rome.
The Roman Empire itself had been divided in 395 A.D. The East was ruled by emperors based in Constantinople. The West was ruled by emperors based in Rome. When Rome fell in 476 A.D., the Eastern Roman Empire continued for nearly a thousand years until Constantinople fell in 1453 A.D. Hence, this iron-toothed beast, or the "iron legs" of the image in king Nebuchadnezzar's dream, extended from 63 B.C. to at least 1453 A.D. The little horn was said to come out of this beast, "uttering great boasts." In Revelation 13:5 we are given more details of this little horn, but John writes that this beast had "a mouth speaking arrogant words and blasphemies."
Who is this "little horn" that comes up out of the Roman Empire? The futurist view is that this is a future "Antichrist," and that there was a long "gap" between the fall of the Roman Empire and the rise of a new Roman Empire that is somehow distinct from the Roman Catholic Church.
The historicist view is that this revived Roman Empire is the Roman Catholic Church itself, which ultimately claimed authority over all the nations of the world. Pope Pius IX himself declared in the nineteenth century that the Roman Church was the inheritor of Rome's authority after the Western Roman Empire fell in 476 A.D. The pope made this claim after the Italian forces of King Victor Emmanuel united Italy (1870), taking the Papal States and even Rome itself from Vatican control. We read this in R.W. Thompson's book, Footprints of the Jesuits, page 316,
"If Pius IX had been less perturbed, and calm enough to reason logically, he might have observed how fatal to his own conclusion was an important confession made by him in this official allocution. Without seeming to comprehend its full meaning and force, he declared it to be 'a singular arrangement of Divine providence' that the pope 'was invested with his civil authority' at the time of the fall of the Roman Empire; that is, during the latter half of the fifth century, and nearly five hundred years after the beginning of the Christian era. . . . His object was to show that when the Roman Empire fell, the temporal power was divinely added to the spiritual power of the pope, and, therefore, that it would violate the divine law if he were deprived of the crown of temporal royalty, which the popes of the primitive times did not possess."
Whereas Daniel gives us a broad perspective of all four world kingdoms leading up to the (Stone) Kingdom of God, John's Revelation focuses primarily upon the fourth world kingdom (including the "little horn" extension of Rome) and how it will be replaced by the Kingdom of God. Thus, the book of Revelation is more focused and includes greater detail of the past 2,000 years since the rise of the Roman Empire. Rome took control of Judea in 63 B.C., and as we will see later in our study, John's prophecy begins in 31 B.C. just as Rome was being transformed from a Republic to an Empire.
Quote from: wwI think there is just one empire that keeps reiincarnating. Babylon.
Yes, I agree.
The head of daniel's horrible man is Babylon.
It's a mind and a system.
QuoteI would say: bring teh info into this thread. I'll dig up some info when I'm finished posting in another thread
The problem is, it's complicated. But, we could try to cover some of it.
QuoteWe are moving on! New types of weaponry is developed as we speak....
Stop! LOL
I've developed a new word which I use with my friends--humanicide. We got distracted in the last century by the concept of genocide, as if they would limit themselves to one race. But, all these people seem interested in is new ways to kill and destroy the entire human race.
Humanity isn't a race. It's a state of mind called compassion.
Enough drivel. Gonna watch an ep Sons of Anarchy :thumbsup:
Quote from: Molly on May 28, 2011, 07:22:41 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on May 28, 2011, 07:10:40 PM
Quote from: Molly on May 28, 2011, 06:44:50 PM
Quote from: wwShortly is 2000 years?
I suppose if 1000 years is a day to you, yes. :winkgrin:
That's only two days. :dontknow:
When was the Book of Revelation written? Wasn't it around 90ad?
What if I say Revelation began long ago :laughing7:
Daniel wrote about the man of gold, silver, etc.
Those where kingdoms.
The beasts of Revelation are the same kingdoms. The Roman beast/empire died in 1453 AD.
So perhaps Revelation spans much more than 7 years.
I've seen that interpretation--it's very interesting.
We do seem to see history repeating itself again--the [Holy] Roman empire revives with the European union,
the Ottoman empire is reviving as we speak. These things seem to be able to survive a deadly wound
and come back to life.
Personally, I'm getting pretty tired of it, myself. It's time for humanity to move on.
I know what you mean. I have personally studied just about every popular interpretation of the book of Daniel and revelation and so far I beleive all of them are the incorrect one. Each of them has compelling arguments, yet in each and every case they miss important details that makes thee whole thing collapse. One compelling argument if that of the 7thday adventist. They have one of the most plausible interpretation of the book of revelation, yet I found that it missed some key elements. A lot of the times when these interpratations are spoken they miss those key details and either don't mention them or change it somewhat.
QuoteIn fact, the book of Revelation is an extension of the book of Daniel.
Agreed.
Daniel 12:9
And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.
QuoteDaniel 2 reveals the basic outline of history, telling us about the four world kingdoms (Babylon, Persia, Greece, and Rome) that would dominate Palestine and the Western World. This came through a prophetic dream given to the Babylonian king Nebuchadnezzar, who saw an image with a head of gold (Babylon) having silver arms (Media-Persia), bronze belly (Greece), and legs of iron (Rome). Nebuchadnezzar also saw a stone crush the image on its feet and then grind the entire image into powder that blew away in the wind. Daniel interpreted the stone to be a "kingdom" (Dan. 2:44) that God would establish, which would never be destroyed.
Yes. Daniel sees these kingdoms, which are happening in succession, as one man. Each kingdom is a different body part of that man.
31Thou, O king, sawest, and behold a great image. This great image, whose brightness was excellent, stood before thee; and the form thereof was terrible. --Dan 2
QuoteThe fourth beast was terrifying and was different from the other beasts. It had "large iron teeth" (Dan. 7:7).
This is the Roman empire, the legs of the terrible form--the last kingdom. The Roman empire never really went away, and in these last days is rising up again as the feet of the terrible form, part iron and part miry clay--this will be its downfall.
It is the feet [the foundation] of the terrible form that the kingdom of stone will smash, thus taking down the whole thing.
QuoteThe Roman Empire itself had been divided in 395 A.D. The East was ruled by emperors based in Constantinople. The West was ruled by emperors based in Rome. When Rome fell in 476 A.D., the Eastern Roman Empire continued for nearly a thousand years until Constantinople fell in 1453 A.D. Hence, this iron-toothed beast, or the "iron legs" of the image in king Nebuchadnezzar's dream, extended from 63 B.C. to at least 1453 A.D.
The fight was really between the western church [Rome] and the eastern orthodox church [Constantinople]. Who would have authority over the whole world? Toward that end, the Roman church sought to exterminate the eastern orthodox church, some of which they did directly, some of which they left to the Ottoman, some of which they tried to finish off in the last century in Russia and the Balkans through mass murder. This would also include the destruction of the Protestant church in Germany, as the Pope signed a concordant with Hitler, leaving his church the only one with protection.
But, of course, the heart of this is not about churches. It is about the mind of Babylon and the desire of this beast to stand in the place of Christ and control the whole world. It will not succeed, as each kingdom is inferior to the one before.
34Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces.
35Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.
--Dan 2
Quote from: Molly on May 28, 2011, 07:22:41 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on May 28, 2011, 07:10:40 PM
Quote from: Molly on May 28, 2011, 06:44:50 PM
Quote from: wwShortly is 2000 years?
I suppose if 1000 years is a day to you, yes. :winkgrin:
That's only two days. :dontknow:
When was the Book of Revelation written? Wasn't it around 90ad?
What if I say Revelation began long ago :laughing7:
Daniel wrote about the man of gold, silver, etc.
Those where kingdoms.
The beasts of Revelation are the same kingdoms. The Roman beast/empire died in 1453 AD.
So perhaps Revelation spans much more than 7 years.
I've seen that interpretation--it's very interesting.
And likely true...
ACVRevelation 19 I John, your brother and companion in the tribulation and kingdom and perseverance in Christ Jesus, happened to be on the isle that is called Patmos because of the word of God, and because of the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Unless John is still alive tribulation started in his lifetime nearly 2 millennia ago.
More of the same:
EBRRevelation 29 I know thy tribulation, and destitution, nevertheless, thou art, rich, and the profane speech from among them who affirm that they themselves are, Jews, and they are not, but a synagogue of Satan.
EBRRevelation 210 Do not fear the things which thou art about to suffer. Lo! the adversary is about to cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried, and may have
tribulation ten days. Become thou faithful until death, and I will give thee the crown of life.
Israel was in the wilderness for 40 years. => Their tribulation/testing
Jesus was in the wilderness for 40 days. => His tribulation/testing
Church will be in the wilderness/tribulation for 40 jubilees. 40*49=1960 years
EBRActs 7
38 The same, is he that came to be in the assembly in the desert, with the messenger who was speaking with him in Mount Sinai, and with our fathers, he who welcomed living utterances, to give unto us:
Tribulation seems to be a ongoing process
Quote from: WhiteWings on May 28, 2011, 07:34:34 PM
John tells us that "the time is near," even as he wrote in verse 1 saying these events "must shortly come to pass." John's revelation is not something afar off, like the one given in Daniel 12:9 and 13. In fact, the book of Revelation is an extension of the book of Daniel.
Daniel 2 reveals the basic outline of history, telling us about the four world kingdoms (Babylon, Persia, Greece, and Rome) that would dominate Palestine and the Western World. This came through a prophetic dream given to the Babylonian king Nebuchadnezzar, who saw an image with a head of gold (Babylon) having silver arms (Media-Persia), bronze belly (Greece), and legs of iron (Rome). Nebuchadnezzar also saw a stone crush the image on its feet and then grind the entire image into powder that blew away in the wind. Daniel interpreted the stone to be a "kingdom" (Dan. 2:44) that God would establish, which would never be destroyed.
In Daniel 7 the prophet himself received divine revelation of these kingdoms. This time they were pictured as "four great beasts" (Dan. 7:3). The first was a lion with eagle's wings (Babylon's national symbol, as depicted on many of their monuments). The second beast was a bear—representing Media-Persia, with Persia being the stronger of the two, i.e., "raised up on one side." The third beast was a leopard with wings to indicate swiftness—representing the Grecian Empire, whose leader, Alexander the Great, conquered that portion of the world all the way to India. The fourth beast was terrifying and was different from the other beasts. It had "large iron teeth" (Dan. 7:7).
Within the prophecy of this iron-toothed beast, a little horn (power) came up, having eyes like a man and "a mouth uttering great boasts" (Dan. 7:8). This is generally recognized as being an extension of the beast with iron teeth—that is, an extension of Rome's power. The futurists view this as a future "Antichrist." The historicists view this as an extension of the Roman power base that arose after the fall of the Western Roman Empire in 476 A.D. In other words, they view it as the Roman Church system itself, which filled the power vacuum with the collapse of Imperial Rome.
The Roman Empire itself had been divided in 395 A.D. The East was ruled by emperors based in Constantinople. The West was ruled by emperors based in Rome. When Rome fell in 476 A.D., the Eastern Roman Empire continued for nearly a thousand years until Constantinople fell in 1453 A.D. Hence, this iron-toothed beast, or the "iron legs" of the image in king Nebuchadnezzar's dream, extended from 63 B.C. to at least 1453 A.D. The little horn was said to come out of this beast, "uttering great boasts." In Revelation 13:5 we are given more details of this little horn, but John writes that this beast had "a mouth speaking arrogant words and blasphemies."
Who is this "little horn" that comes up out of the Roman Empire? The futurist view is that this is a future "Antichrist," and that there was a long "gap" between the fall of the Roman Empire and the rise of a new Roman Empire that is somehow distinct from the Roman Catholic Church.
The historicist view is that this revived Roman Empire is the Roman Catholic Church itself, which ultimately claimed authority over all the nations of the world. Pope Pius IX himself declared in the nineteenth century that the Roman Church was the inheritor of Rome's authority after the Western Roman Empire fell in 476 A.D. The pope made this claim after the Italian forces of King Victor Emmanuel united Italy (1870), taking the Papal States and even Rome itself from Vatican control. We read this in R.W. Thompson's book, Footprints of the Jesuits, page 316,
"If Pius IX had been less perturbed, and calm enough to reason logically, he might have observed how fatal to his own conclusion was an important confession made by him in this official allocution. Without seeming to comprehend its full meaning and force, he declared it to be 'a singular arrangement of Divine providence' that the pope 'was invested with his civil authority' at the time of the fall of the Roman Empire; that is, during the latter half of the fifth century, and nearly five hundred years after the beginning of the Christian era. . . . His object was to show that when the Roman Empire fell, the temporal power was divinely added to the spiritual power of the pope, and, therefore, that it would violate the divine law if he were deprived of the crown of temporal royalty, which the popes of the primitive times did not possess."
Whereas Daniel gives us a broad perspective of all four world kingdoms leading up to the (Stone) Kingdom of God, John's Revelation focuses primarily upon the fourth world kingdom (including the "little horn" extension of Rome) and how it will be replaced by the Kingdom of God. Thus, the book of Revelation is more focused and includes greater detail of the past 2,000 years since the rise of the Roman Empire. Rome took control of Judea in 63 B.C., and as we will see later in our study, John's prophecy begins in 31 B.C. just as Rome was being transformed from a Republic to an Empire.
I agree with this. I also think what you said is true about Revelation beginning long ago. If you look up the referrences in Revelation you will find a lot of them are in the Old Testament.
WhiteWings, you have given much insight into all of this, thanks.
I don't know what else is to be fulfilled but isn't it fun and revealing to search and look and try to understand all of these things? I know, it is God who opens the mind.
CHB
Quote from: CHB on May 28, 2011, 09:56:45 PMI agree with this. I also think what you said is true about Revelation beginning long ago. If you look up the referrences in Revelation you will find a lot of them are in the Old Testament.
Maybe tribulation started when Adam was kicked out of the Garden of Eden.
QuoteWhiteWings, you have given much insight into all of this, thanks.
At your service :hihat: On esatisfied reader; that what I'm doing it for. :winkgrin:
QuoteI don't know what else is to be fulfilled but isn't it fun and revealing to search and look and try to understand all of these things? I know, it is God who opens the mind.
By now you (should) know I'm a number/pattern geek. I think I'm very close to the truth that any theory/doctrine not firmly rooted in the OT is not even worth :2c:
If you say OT you say feasts and rules.
Also take a peek here: http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/book_revelation/the_unveiling_jesus_christ_9679.0.html
QuoteAnd likely true...
Agreed. God works in the context of history. There is history, and then there is the truth.
Quote from: wwTribulation seems to be a ongoing process
Agreed.
If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first.--John 16:18
All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.
--Mat 10:22
QuoteEBRRevelation 2
9 I know thy tribulation, and destitution, nevertheless, thou art, rich, and the profane speech from among them who affirm that they themselves are, Jews, and they are not, but a synagogue of Satan.
Here's a clue.
QuoteChurch will be in the wilderness/tribulation for 40 jubilees. 40*49=1960 years
Can't we come up with a number from that? The church is no longer in the wilderness?
QuoteTribulation seems to be a ongoing process
I think also we repeat these steps in our own lives.
"Ontogeny recapitulates phylogeny," as they say.
Quote from: wwMaybe tribulation started when Adam was kicked out of the Garden of Eden.
Agreed.
14And the LORD God said unto the serpent,...
15... I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
Revelation 12:17
And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Rev 1:1 A revelation of Jesus Christ, that God gave to him, to shew to his servants what things it behoveth to come to pass quickly; and he did signify it , having sent through his messenger to his servant John,
It is my reasoning and understanding that when the indiviual soul, human being, saved by Grace, and Grace is working within, that "to come to pass quickly(shortly)" is when the Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the End, allows us, His servants, His Temple to see what John saw and it is revealed, uncovered, then "must needs (I say will) come to pass with speed,"
That is when that last Book begins to work in the born again mind of His Gen.1:27 man, male and female, them will begin to be finsihed, complete, perfect, mature man.
Rom 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creation waiteth for the revealing of the sons of God.
But then again its me :sigh:
Peace and Love Through Jesus
Quote from: WhiteWings on May 28, 2011, 07:50:23 PM
Humanity isn't a race. It's a state of mind called compassion.
Exceedingly beautiful.
Quote from: WhiteWings
Church will be in the wilderness/tribulation for 40 jubilees. 40*49=1960 years
Starting from when and ending where?
CHB
I could cry.
Quote from: CHB on May 29, 2011, 01:47:52 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings
Church will be in the wilderness/tribulation for 40 jubilees. 40*49=1960 years
Starting from when and ending where?
CHB
Not very sure but this are my thoughts:
Read THIS (http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/members_lounge/the_secrets_time_9637.msg121796.html#msg121796) message about Jesus representing 2 goats.
Church had it's baptism at Pentecost. When exactly the church' clock started ticking is is hard to say. Firstly we have the debate in which year that Pentecost was. Maybe the clock started ticking at Pentecost or maybe when the Temple was destroyed. But I think in God's eye's the Temple became totally irrelevant when Jesus made His Lamb sacrifice and likely even before that when He made the goat sacrifice. The old system died at His baptism. Or 40 days after if you wish.
Let's assume 30 AD baptism as a starting point. 40*49=1960 + 30 = 1990 AD
EBRRevelation 12
14 And there were given unto the woman the two wings of the great eagle, that she might fly into the desert, into her place,––where she is nourished, a season and seasons and half a season, from the face of the serpent.
That's 3.5 years. If we take a 360 day year that's 1260 days. Using a year for a day it's 1260 years.
Some say the woman (=church) fled into the wilderness when Constantine established the Roman church. Could be but I'm missing the number 40.
Hi all. Sorry that I didn't post a reply earlier, the past couple of days have been busy. Regarding the book of Revelation, I think that it was written before 70 AD and not 96 AD. For one thing the temple is still standing:
Re 11:1 ¶ A reed like a rod was given to me. Someone said, "Rise, and measure God's temple, and the altar, and those who worship in it.
Re 11:2 Leave out the court which is outside of the temple, and don't measure it, for it has been given to the nations. They will tread the holy city under foot for forty-two months.
Another thing is that if this was written after 70 AD, why is Jerusalem's destruction not mentioned? Furthermore why is the temple's destruction not mentioned?
Mr 13:1 ¶ As he went out of the temple, one of his disciples said to him, "Teacher, see what kind of stones and what kind of buildings!"
Mr 13:2 Jesus said to him, "Do you see these great buildings? There will not be left here one stone on another, which will not be thrown down."
Mr 13:3 As he sat on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter, James, John, and Andrew asked him privately,
Mr 13:4 "Tell us, when will these things be? What is the sign that these things are all about to be fulfilled?"
John was probably present or got wind of Christ's statement in verse two because in the next verse, he was one of the 4 disciples questioning him privately. As the author of Revelation, I think he would of mentioned this very specific fulfilment if it had been written after 70 AD. I certainly don't have all the answers on everything regarding this (the 144,000 bit always confused me, but that's probably a whole thread right there).
Regarding the rapture, I still tend to think it's future because Paul mentions:
1Co 15:51 ¶ Behold, I tell you a mystery. We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed,
1Co 15:52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we will be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Co 15:54 But when this corruptible will have put on incorruption, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then what is written will happen: "Death is swallowed up in victory."
I wonder if Paul expected this to happen in his lifetime? Any thoughts?
Also, is anyone familiar with J.Stuart Russell's book about this stuff? I've heard great things about it even though I heard he comes to some controversial conclusions..
Happy Memorial Day to everyone BTW!
Blessings,
Chris
Quote from: WhiteWings on May 28, 2011, 10:09:44 PM
I think I'm very close to the truth that any theory/doctrine not firmly rooted in the OT is not even worth :2c:
:cloud9: I'm already of that opinion, too..... :thumbsup: He went to a great deal of trouble to establish the patterns so that even blind men could see it :laughing7:
Yeah, and one day I'm no longer deaf and hear trumpets. :laughing7:
WhiteWings — you are a trumpet!
Yeah like Beethoven, plays outstanding music but deaf to the beautiful sound of the footsteps of almighty God.
Blessed are those who are hard of hearing for they shall hear God.
Maybe I heart the footsteps for 2-3 seconds last week.
Quote from: WhiteWings on May 31, 2011, 03:08:37 PM
Maybe the footsteps for 2-3 seconds last week.
Isaiah 52:7 (King James Version)
7How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings, that publisheth peace; that bringeth good tidings of good, that publisheth salvation; that saith unto Zion, Thy God reigneth!
:cloud9: You know, sometimes the Lord walks thru HIS gardens, and because we don't expect Him in that form, we miss it. I've heard His Spirit speak out of the "unsaved" and they had no idea, but I HEARD the "sound" of His voice coming thru them. There is no where He is not; we just have to fine tune our hearing and lay down respect of persons. My :2c:
Quote from: CHB on May 29, 2011, 01:47:52 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings
Church will be in the wilderness/tribulation for 40 jubilees. 40*49=1960 years
Starting from when and ending where?
CHB
Just found something...
Ephesus: Desirable/permitted (33-64 AD)
Smyrna: Bitter or Myrrh (64-313 AD)
Pergamos: Married to Power/height/elevation (313-529 AD)
Thyatira: Castle of the Goddess/odor of affliction (529-1517 AD)
Sardis: Precious Stone, Remnant/red ones (1517-1776 AD)
Philadelphia: Brotherly Love (1776-1914 AD)
Laodicea: Power of the Laity/justice of the people (1914-1993 AD)OT Church NT Church Characteristics of Both
Moses Ephesus Refusing to hear their first love
Korah Smyrna The Rebellious Church
Balaam Pergamos The Paganized Church
Jezebel Thyatira The Persecuted Church
Remnant Sardis The Remnant of Grace Church
Hezekiah Philadelphia The Missionary Church
Captivity Laodicea The Captive Church | NT Church | Spirit | Given Reward | | Ephesus | Spirit of the Lord | Tree of Life | | Smyrna | Understanding | Crown of Life | | Pergamos | Counsel | White Stone | | Thyatira | Knowledge | Morning Star | | Sardis | Wisdom | White Clothes | | Philadelphia | Strength (Might) | Pillar in Temple | | Laodicea | Fear of the Lord | Sit in Throne |
|
EBRRevelation 2
10 Do not fear the things which thou art about to suffer. Lo! the adversary is about to cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried, and may have tribulation ten days. Become thou faithful until death, and I will give thee the crown of life.
The "ten days" of persecution that John mentions in Rev. 2:10 are generally taken to include the final ten years of the most horrible persecution of Diocletian from 303 to 313 AD. However, he was only the tenth emperor to make such persecution a policy of government. There were ten Roman Emperors who persecuted Christians as a matter of public policy. These may be thought of as ten "days" or times of persecution and tribulation for this church. They are as follows:
1. Nero (64 AD)
2. Domitian (95)
3. Trajan (107)
4. Hadrian (127)
5. Aurelius (165)
6. Severus (202)
7. Maximus (235)
8. Decius (249)
9. Valerianus (257)
10. Diocletian (303)
Had to mention this beings no one else has . . .just preached on this very passage last Sunday . . .the original post is what I'm referring to here. The issue with the entire passage of 1 Thessalonians 4 is . . .it's been cherry picked. Someone's come in, snatched one piece out of what Paul was sharing and left the rest of what he said as though he never said it. But if you read what he said BEFORE you get to the famous part, you'll see the topic has nothing at all to do with what the church has taught us.
9 But as touching brotherly love ye need not that I write unto you: for ye yourselves are taught of God to love one another.
10And indeed ye do it toward all the brethren which are in all Macedonia: but we beseech you, brethren, that ye increase more and more;
11And that ye study to be quiet, and to do your own business, and to work with your own hands, as we commanded you;
12That ye may walk honestly toward them that are without, and that ye may have lack of nothing.
13But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope
First, there is no break of subject matter between verse 9 and the rest of the chapter . . .the topic is not about end times, the rapture, or anything of the kind . . .it's about brotherly love toward both those that are with and those that are without the knowledge of truth in their hearts. And those that are without are the same as those that are asleep. He's not talking about literally dead, he's talking about spiritually dead . . .spiritually without life . . .he's telling us that even though they may be spiritually dead, there is still hope because they to, are going to experience a resurrection.
14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
Think about how the kingdom works . .. WE which are ALIVE and will remains so as Christ appears to all of us, but we'll not keep them from experiencing the same thing. We'll not declare those who are without to be hopeless because it's only by God's grace that "we" are alive ourselves. In the kingdom, the first are last . .. WE who are alive NOW are the first . . .but those who are asleep, we'll not prevent them, we'll not be ahead of them . . .because if they're last here, they're first in the kingdom . . .just because we're alive in Christ and they're not, doesn't make us ahead or better than them who are asleep.
16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
Descending from heaven with a shoult . . .sounds like another upper room experience. A shout is a proclamation. Whenever God moved in Ezekiel's vision as he rode upon a cherubim, there would be a shout in the same manner. The dead in Christ now become first because again, in the kingdom, the first shall be last and the last shall be first. And as we see them resurrected in truth and life, we become caught up in their experience and we all celebrate in the Lord together when it happens. These words are to be a comfort, not an alarm. Not a warning . . .not a battle cry to the world, but a celebrative word to all who hear.
The topic never changed, it was all about displaying brotherly love to both those who are alive and those who are asleep spiritually speaking.
what Paul was discoursing on was..this....those spiritually alive in flesh being caught up..to meet the Lord in the air[Rev 20;9,10]
Rev 21...I saw the Holy city[new Jerusalem] coming down out of heaven from God.[that is where they are caught up to]
at the time that this occurs everthing that causes sin in the kingdom will have been removed...false prophet,beast[corruptible flesh and the final adversary
that came against the 'camp' of the Holy city
that camp of the Holy city has already been deliverd from the false prophet and beast and Babylon...corruptible flesh and the adversary released into
the earth is the last enemy....fire comes down from heaven and destroys that final enemy....thus the finished work of God...perfection the corruptible
has put on immortality...deathless life
Hmmm . . .I see "us" as the city of New Jerusalem, not so much a literal city, but a spiritual position in Christ. In the Spirit, we're "all" Jews. And you say the earth is the last enemy? I thought it was supposed to be "death".
Hi Nathan
indeed it is all mankind in the image of the Son that the Holy city is made up of.LITERALLY when that which is spiritual is manifest[becomes substance]
the earth be our fleshy corruptible vessell with the adversary[sin.satan]let loose in it..surrounding the camp...body of death
we will be delivered of it when we are clothed in celestial flesh
the camp is a temporal dwelling of the spirit in the wilderness of the earth[who is this coming UP from the wilderness,leaning on her lover]
the city is the eternal permanent dwelling place[home]
Son 7:11 Come, my beloved, let us go forth into the field; let us lodge in the villages.
:cloud9: Good to see you back, Nate :thumbsup:
Thanks Card . . . tough to go cold turkey but sometimes I need to regroup and double-check my priorities for why I do what I do and say what I say.
the better resurrection from the dead..Paul hoped to attain.....
the first resurrection of which all mankind must.do partake
John 11;25 Jesus said to her,'I am the resurrection and the life. He who beleives in me will live even though He dies,and whoever lives and beleives in me
will NEVER DIE. DO YOU BELEIVE THIS?
John 10;10 I COME THAT they MAY HAVE LIFE , and have it to the full
we speak of attaining the fullness of Christ...Paul strived for that fullnesss....he also revealed the hope of ascending alive/being changed in a twinkling of an eye
this is all the first resurrection....but an individual fullness of it
some are resurrected/have hope in Christ/die spiritually..then flesh dies also...this is the letting loose of satan to deceive an individual,with a lying spirit
and they fight against the Holy city..a sin unto death....these ...even though they die will live
l
now, carnal babes had divisions and strife in Christ....and we know that anyone who has the mark of the beast/carnal..CAN NOT LIVE these too are dead in Christ
but will live.
Now remember it is He that has the keys and read His letters to the church...and He who overcomes will not be hurt of the secound death,[have no fear
littl flock,for I have overcome the world] He is giving instruction in His letters to various spiritual states His church is in..Some will overcome..and some won't
they are near spiritual death. Laodecia is spiritually dead.[but the will live even though they die]
Some He speaks to as coming and warring against them with the sword of His mouth[see the mislead gog crowd that fights against the camp of the Holy city]
Now look at the overcomers in Rev...there is no lie in their mouths they are blameless they overcame they are clean of any deceptions or error of truth
as it pertains to Christ. Now the Holy spirit is to lead us all into the things that pertain to Christ,but there are many anti-christs that come to rob,kill His body members
All mankind at death overcomes...and is raised incorruptible, they are taught of God..for He finishes all our training,regardless of how carnal a Christian in understanding
while in this world/or how duped they were by the adversary[He restores]
Now as to ascending alive, those that are not deceived/that have overcome...are in the camp of the Holy city...and their testimony is an acceptable offering unto
the Lord. Now the prophets of Baal and the groves had a dispute with ELIJAH...as to who spoke truth..and worshipped the true God.
The misled fought against truth..with lies......and fire comes down fromheaven and consumes the sacrifice made by Elijah[He who takes away the sin of the whole world]
cont's
for it is an acceptable sacrifice unto the LORD..offered...SPIRIT AND TRUTH
do not be afraid to offer unto Him...HIS WORDS OF TRUTH
it is the ONLY WAY TO ASCEND ALIVE