- Disciple means one who follows a discipline, so Jesus' disciples follow his discipline. Do you agree?
- I feel that I need to improve my spiritual discipline in order to better do God's will for me. And I'd like to have one or more others to discuss discipline with each week. I think this would improve my inspiration. If I only do whatever my mood dictates, that seems to incline me toward selfish desires more than toward God's will for me.
- Do you share interest in discussing discipline with someone each week? If so, I can try to do that with you, or, if not convenient, I can help find someone else with whom it would be more convenient.
- My feeling is that it would be mutually beneficial to discuss plans each week and to discuss emotions. I think discussing plans would help improve the inspiration for plans. And discussing emotions helps uncover false beliefs, usually from childhood, that cause unpleasant emotions. I think Jesus called truth light and false beliefs darkness and he said shining light into darkness removes the darkness. So discussing emotions helps us uncover false beliefs and the knowledge that they are false is light, which removes the false beliefs.
- For me it's most convenient to discuss on a Google Document or on Skype. I can be available live almost any day of the week. The best time is between noon and 5 p.m. Central Time.
- Would you like to try this at least once or a few times to see if it seems to be helpful? If so, what day and time would you like to start?
Jeff's dictionary sez - a disciple is one that does. Discipline means "to do"
If you aren't home bound, get out and volunteer your time to help others less fortunate than you
If you are homebound. your computer is your doorway to the world.
Just like talk radio, it's great but all they do is talk.
I can't understand sitting around discussing what we should be doing rather than doing.
"The learning is in the doing"
"The secret is, there is no secret"
As you help others or comfort them or pray for them, you are being a disciple of Jesus.
It's not recorded the disciples ever sat around discussing "How to be a better disciple" :Peace2:
QuoteIt's not recorded the disciples ever sat around discussing "How to be a better disciple"
It's recorded that Jesus taught the disciples how to be his disciples, not just by doing things haphazardly, but by meeting and praying together and making decisions together as per Acts 15 etc.
Yes, "For whatever is done apart from the Holy Spirit is sin."
As I said, I think I need to practice some spiritual discipline each week, so I'll try to do that here. The most useful discipline seems to be to discuss emotions and plans. Unpleasant emotions I believe are caused by misconceptions ("darkness") and examining such emotions helps reveal (shine the light on) the misconceptions, which helps correct them.
1a. Emotion: worry and discouragement 2 weeks ago when I had a painful toothache that lasted several days followed by a migraine.
1b. Possible misconceptions that caused worry and discouragement: that declining health will be too expensive to heal and too disabling to allow me to carry out important plans or ideas.
1c. Possible lesson: I need to relinquish pride in my plans and ideas.
2a. Emotion: discouragement this past week that what seem to be inspired plans one day seem unwise the next.
2b. Possible misconception behind it: that a plan is inspired if it seems impressive, or that it is uninspired if it does not seem impressive.
2c. Possible lesson: ideas need to be discussed with mature others to help determine if they're inspired or not.
3. Idea: set up a place online to discuss ideas with mature others to help determine if they're inspired or not (maybe here).
4. Idea: start a project for young Christians under 30 to collaborate to write a book and a blog to share the good news (aka gospel) with young people et al worldwide in normal language that makes sense to people in all major cultures, instead of using traditional Christian terms that sound like mumbo-jumbo or cults to other cultures.
5. Idea: start a non-profit consulting service that connects people with both non-profit and for-profit consultants on all ethical topics, including religion.
6. Idea: start a united Christian town or community with sound economics in a small county.
7a. Request: members, please tell me whether any of these ideas seem inspired or not and, if you like, tell why.
7b. Request: members, please discuss your ideas here, or somewhere else that you prefer and name, to help all of us consider what's inspired or not.
Quote from: Lloyd on January 19, 2013, 08:57:17 PM
As I said, I think I need to practice some spiritual discipline each week, so I'll try to do that here. The most useful discipline seems to be to discuss emotions and plans. Unpleasant emotions I believe are caused by misconceptions ("darkness") and examining such emotions helps reveal (shine the light on) the misconceptions, which helps correct them.
1a. Emotion: worry and discouragement 2 weeks ago when I had a painful toothache that lasted several days followed by a migraine.
1b. Possible misconceptions that caused worry and discouragement: that declining health will be too expensive to heal and too disabling to allow me to carry out important plans or ideas.
1c. Possible lesson: I need to relinquish pride in my plans and ideas.
2a. Emotion: discouragement this past week that what seem to be inspired plans one day seem unwise the next.
2b. Possible misconception behind it: that a plan is inspired if it seems impressive, or that it is uninspired if it does not seem unimpressive.
2c. Possible lesson: ideas need to be discussed with mature others to help determine if they're inspired or not.
3. Idea: set up a place online to discuss ideas with mature others to help determine if they're inspired or not (maybe here).
4. Idea: start a project for young Christians under 30 to collaborate to write a book and a blog to share the good news (aka gospel) with young people et al worldwide in normal language that makes sense to people in all major cultures, instead of using traditional Christian terms that sound like mumbo-jumbo or cults to other cultures.
5. Idea: start a non-profit consulting service that connects people with both non-profit and for-profit consultants on all ethical topics, including religion.
6. Idea: start a united Christian town or community with sound economics in a small county.
7a. Request: members, please tell me whether any of these ideas seem inspired or not and, if you like, tell why.
7b. Request: members, please discuss your ideas here, or somewhere else that you prefer and name, to help all of us consider what's inspired or not.
Spirtual Discipline 101: AKA Hey, how did it get to be so messy around here.
In the seventies there was a movement which sprang out of Argentina: it was called Discipleship. People placed themselves under the pastors, or elders, and learned at their feet. Result: A lot of people got hurt because a lot of the pastors and elders forgot that the people they were leading, actually belonged to God, and not the them. Lesson: Where ever you are, that's where God is. Do what's infront of you (maybe).
Step one: (you may wish to take notes) Be still and know that I am God. If God wishes to use you to help someone, cool, if he doesn't, cool.
Step two: (you may wish to take notes) Be still and know that I am God. If God wishes to use you to help someone, cool, if he doesn't, cool.
Step three:(you may wish to take notes) Be still and know that I am God. If God wishes to use you to help someone, cool, if he doesn't, cool.
Repeat.
For me, the thought of disciplining myself (basically forcing myself) to study, work, strive, white knuckle etc seems miserable and legalistic. I have gone through those seasons and they always end up here. It's like chasing your tail...never catch it...just get winded.
Instead, today I really just look at trying to focus on one thing today...gratitude. I'm so grateful that I have health, a calling, family, sobriety etc...not because of me but despite me. It causes my eyes to look upward, and I ache to pray...ache to read His word...ache to dwell on Him...when i start my day with gratitude. I fall in love with my Savior more and more in those moments. That love changes me to where discipline isn't really in the picture. Do you have to discipline yourself to talk to your wife? Hopefully not because you love her. It causes me to want selfish things less.
I know today if I start my day with gratitude, all else will fall into place.
Quote from: Lloyd on January 19, 2013, 08:57:17 PM
As I said, I think I need to practice some spiritual discipline each week, so I'll try to do that here. The most useful discipline seems to be to discuss emotions and plans. Unpleasant emotions I believe are caused by misconceptions ("darkness") and examining such emotions helps reveal (shine the light on) the misconceptions, which helps correct them.
1a. Emotion: worry and discouragement 2 weeks ago when I had a painful toothache that lasted several days followed by a migraine.
1b. Possible misconceptions that caused worry and discouragement: that declining health will be too expensive to heal and too disabling to allow me to carry out important plans or ideas.
1c. Possible lesson: I need to relinquish pride in my plans and ideas.
2a. Emotion: discouragement this past week that what seem to be inspired plans one day seem unwise the next.
2b. Possible misconception behind it: that a plan is inspired if it seems impressive, or that it is uninspired if it does not seem unimpressive.
2c. Possible lesson: ideas need to be discussed with mature others to help determine if they're inspired or not.
3. Idea: set up a place online to discuss ideas with mature others to help determine if they're inspired or not (maybe here).
4. Idea: start a project for young Christians under 30 to collaborate to write a book and a blog to share the good news (aka gospel) with young people et al worldwide in normal language that makes sense to people in all major cultures, instead of using traditional Christian terms that sound like mumbo-jumbo or cults to other cultures.
5. Idea: start a non-profit consulting service that connects people with both non-profit and for-profit consultants on all ethical topics, including religion.
6. Idea: start a united Christian town or community with sound economics in a small county.
7a. Request: members, please tell me whether any of these ideas seem inspired or not and, if you like, tell why.
7b. Request: members, please discuss your ideas here, or somewhere else that you prefer and name, to help all of us consider what's inspired or not.
Lloyd you seem like a bright guy. Actually the way you break things down seems like an engineer. Those guys are so analytical, I think they could make a flow chart on how to solve their wife's emotional problems.
But, have you ever thought to just stop over thinking your walk with Christ? His yoke is easy...burden light. This isn't rocket science...it's grace and relationship. It's gratitude and forgiveness. It's love. How about focusing on one thing today...turning your eyes to him and just pouring out your heart to him...take a walk in the park with Him. Let that experience carry over into your interactions with others. You don't have to earn anything. This isn't a contest. You are loved just how you are.
Quote from: Lloyd on December 31, 2012, 11:11:15 PM
- Disciple means one who follows a discipline, so Jesus' disciples follow his discipline. Do you agree?
- I feel that I need to improve my spiritual discipline in order to better do God's will for me. And I'd like to have one or more others to discuss discipline with each week. I think this would improve my inspiration. If I only do whatever my mood dictates, that seems to incline me toward selfish desires more than toward God's will for me.
- Do you share interest in discussing discipline with someone each week? If so, I can try to do that with you, or, if not convenient, I can help find someone else with whom it would be more convenient.
- My feeling is that it would be mutually beneficial to discuss plans each week and to discuss emotions. I think discussing plans would help improve the inspiration for plans. And discussing emotions helps uncover false beliefs, usually from childhood, that cause unpleasant emotions. I think Jesus called truth light and false beliefs darkness and he said shining light into darkness removes the darkness. So discussing emotions helps us uncover false beliefs and the knowledge that they are false is light, which removes the false beliefs.
- For me it's most convenient to discuss on a Google Document or on Skype. I can be available live almost any day of the week. The best time is between noon and 5 p.m. Central Time.
- Would you like to try this at least once or a few times to see if it seems to be helpful? If so, what day and time would you like to start?
Heya,
I can relate in a way to what you are saying, however sometimes when we focus on ourselves and what we are doing to the minutest detail it sometimes makes us distracted from the bigger picture, Gods picture. The law was there for us to break, if we were born perfect then there is no need for the cross. The reason we have sin is because God wants us to know that we
can not achieve perfection without him. Sometimes guilt, and constant worrying can make us feel like we really should be doing better, but the grace of God is so beautiful that all it takes is to ask for strength.
Discipline is important for ones life, but so is relying on God when you stuff up. We should not be afraid if we are weak, because Jesus is strong. :dsunny:
Quote from: misszoolander on January 21, 2013, 07:50:53 AM
Quote from: Lloyd on December 31, 2012, 11:11:15 PM
- Disciple means one who follows a discipline, so Jesus' disciples follow his discipline. Do you agree?
- I feel that I need to improve my spiritual discipline in order to better do God's will for me. And I'd like to have one or more others to discuss discipline with each week. I think this would improve my inspiration. If I only do whatever my mood dictates, that seems to incline me toward selfish desires more than toward God's will for me.
- Do you share interest in discussing discipline with someone each week? If so, I can try to do that with you, or, if not convenient, I can help find someone else with whom it would be more convenient.
- My feeling is that it would be mutually beneficial to discuss plans each week and to discuss emotions. I think discussing plans would help improve the inspiration for plans. And discussing emotions helps uncover false beliefs, usually from childhood, that cause unpleasant emotions. I think Jesus called truth light and false beliefs darkness and he said shining light into darkness removes the darkness. So discussing emotions helps us uncover false beliefs and the knowledge that they are false is light, which removes the false beliefs.
- For me it's most convenient to discuss on a Google Document or on Skype. I can be available live almost any day of the week. The best time is between noon and 5 p.m. Central Time.
- Would you like to try this at least once or a few times to see if it seems to be helpful? If so, what day and time would you like to start?
Heya,
I can relate in a way to what you are saying, however sometimes when we focus on ourselves and what we are doing to the minutest detail it sometimes makes us distracted from the bigger picture, Gods picture. The law was there for us to break, if we were born perfect then there is no need for the cross. The reason we have sin is because God wants us to know that we can not achieve perfection without him. Sometimes guilt, and constant worrying can make us feel like we really should be doing better, but the grace of God is so beautiful that all it takes is to ask for strength.
Discipline is important for ones life, but so is relying on God when you stuff up. We should not be afraid if we are weak, because Jesus is strong. :dsunny:
Amen! Oh I can certainly relate. I can only speak for myself but when I focus on me, my compliance with the Law, how I measure up, am I doing enough etc and so on...I grow ill...I find no peace.
I must focus my eyes on the Cross...on Christ and my need for a Savior. I'm a broken and weak man...but in Him I find myself growing daily. Not because I disciplined myself...but because His love is changing me. Sometimes I take back control and try to speed up the process with lawful thinking. It always reminds me that I can't! He can! Ad that was the purpose of the Law.
Great thoughts folks.
In my weakness He is strong.
:thumbsup: and so what..if God has chosen the weak and foolish things of this earth[flesh is weak] in order to put
the wise and strong to shame?
Quote from: sheila on January 21, 2013, 06:07:02 PM
:thumbsup: and so what..if God has chosen the weak and foolish things of this earth[flesh is weak] in order to put
the wise and strong to shame?
Right on. I am proof God uses the weak for His purposes...therefore I rejoice in my weaknesses.
Quote from: shawn on January 21, 2013, 06:12:47 PM
Quote from: sheila on January 21, 2013, 06:07:02 PM
:thumbsup: and so what..if God has chosen the weak and foolish things of this earth[flesh is weak] in order to put
the wise and strong to shame?
Right on. I am proof God uses the weak for His purposes...therefore I rejoice in my weaknesses.
I would like to rejoice with Shaw if that would be okay with everyone.
Thanks a lot for the criticism. Is that the sort of non-discipline that Jesus advises?
I'm sorry we were not trying to put you down, just offering you our thoughts :dunno2:
Quote from: Lloyd on January 27, 2013, 04:27:40 AM
Thanks a lot for the criticism. Is that the sort of non-discipline that Jesus advises?
I think an important part of sharpening and being sharpened is our ability to listen to others without being personally offended. Offense is merely ego...and there is no ego in love. Read, listen, take what sits well with your spirit...certainly nothing said was meant to hurt feelings...just people sharing where they are in their Christ walk.
Discipline in the Old Testament
Proverbs _1:1-3 - The proverbs of Solomon son of David, king of Israel: for attaining wisdom and discipline; for understanding words of insight; for acquiring a disciplined and prudent life, doing what is right and just and fair;
_5:22-23 - The ... wicked man ... will die for lack of discipline, led astray by his own great folly.
_6:6-11 - [Observe] the ant, you sluggard; consider [its] ways, and be wise. [Without a] guide, overseer, or ruler, [it] provides her meat in the summer, and gathers [its] food in the harvest. How long will you [rest], O sluggard? ... So shall your poverty come as one that [is homeless], and your want as a [violent man].
_6:23 - For these commands are a lamp, this teaching is a light, and the corrections of discipline are the way to life,
_10:17 - He who heeds discipline shows the way to life, but whoever ignores correction leads others astray.
_13:18 - He who ignores discipline comes to poverty and shame, but whoever heeds correction is honored.
_22:15 - Folly is bound up in the heart of a child, but the rod of discipline will drive it far from him.
_25:28 - He that has no rule over his own spirit is like a city that is broken down, and without walls.
Jeremiah _17:23 - Yet they did not listen or pay attention; they were stiff-necked [unfaithful] and would not listen or respond to discipline.
Discipline in the New Testament
_Galatians 5:13 - For, brethren, you have been called to liberty [from false traditions]; [but] do not use liberty for [indulging] the flesh, but [to] serve one another [in love].
[Someone commented: We tend to think that doing what we want leads to fulfillment but it more often leads to sin.]
_5:22-23 - But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith [faithfulness], Meekness, temperance [self-discipline]: against such there is no law.
_Titus 1:7-8 - Since a [religious] overseer is entrusted with God's work, he must be blameless, not overbearing, not quick-tempered, not given to drunkenness, not violent, not pursuing dishonest gain. Rather he must be hospitable, one who loves what is good, who is self-controlled, upright, holy and disciplined.
_2 Timothy 1:7 - For God did not give us a spirit of timidity, but a spirit of power, of love and of self-discipline.
_Hebrews 12:7-9 - Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as sons. For what son is not disciplined [trained] by his father? If you are not disciplined (and everyone undergoes discipline), then you are illegitimate children and not true sons. Moreover, we have all had human fathers who disciplined us and we respected them for it. How much more should we submit to the Father of our spirits [in order to] live!
_Hebrews 12:11 - [Discipline] produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it.
_1 Pet 4:17-19 - The time has evidently arrived for God's judgment to begin, and it is beginning at his own household [with us]. ... Therefore those who [persevere] according to God's will can safely commit their souls to their faithful Creator, and go on doing all the good they can.
_I Corinthians 6:12 - All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient [and] I will not be brought under the power of any.
_I Corinthians 9:27 - But I keep [control over] my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.
_Romans 2:21 - [Someone derived from this passage the following discipline:]
-Love God supremely and submit to Him (not the television).
-Love your neighbor as yourself.
-Read and obey God's word.
-Pray.
-Fast.
-Be filled with the Spirit and walk in the Spirit.
-Recognize the spiritual battle going on and pray for the ministry.
-Be excited about Jesus who has given us the victory.
Quote from: VineBranch on January 21, 2013, 07:06:47 AM
Quote from: Lloyd on January 19, 2013, 08:57:17 PM
As I said, I think I need to practice some spiritual discipline each week, so I'll try to do that here. The most useful discipline seems to be to discuss emotions and plans. Unpleasant emotions I believe are caused by misconceptions ("darkness") and examining such emotions helps reveal (shine the light on) the misconceptions, which helps correct them.
1a. Emotion: worry and discouragement 2 weeks ago when I had a painful toothache that lasted several days followed by a migraine.
1b. Possible misconceptions that caused worry and discouragement: that declining health will be too expensive to heal and too disabling to allow me to carry out important plans or ideas.
1c. Possible lesson: I need to relinquish pride in my plans and ideas.
2a. Emotion: discouragement this past week that what seem to be inspired plans one day seem unwise the next.
2b. Possible misconception behind it: that a plan is inspired if it seems impressive, or that it is uninspired if it does not seem unimpressive.
2c. Possible lesson: ideas need to be discussed with mature others to help determine if they're inspired or not.
3. Idea: set up a place online to discuss ideas with mature others to help determine if they're inspired or not (maybe here).
4. Idea: start a project for young Christians under 30 to collaborate to write a book and a blog to share the good news (aka gospel) with young people et al worldwide in normal language that makes sense to people in all major cultures, instead of using traditional Christian terms that sound like mumbo-jumbo or cults to other cultures.
5. Idea: start a non-profit consulting service that connects people with both non-profit and for-profit consultants on all ethical topics, including religion.
6. Idea: start a united Christian town or community with sound economics in a small county.
7a. Request: members, please tell me whether any of these ideas seem inspired or not and, if you like, tell why.
7b. Request: members, please discuss your ideas here, or somewhere else that you prefer and name, to help all of us consider what's inspired or not.
Spirtual Discipline 101: AKA Hey, how did it get to be so messy around here.
In the seventies there was a movement which sprang out of Argentina: it was called Discipleship. People placed themselves under the pastors, or elders, and learned at their feet. Result: A lot of people got hurt because a lot of the pastors and elders forgot that the people they were leading, actually belonged to God, and not the them. Lesson: Where ever you are, that's where God is. Do what's infront of you (maybe).
Step one: (you may wish to take notes) Be still and know that I am God. If God wishes to use you to help someone, cool, if he doesn't, cool.
Step two: (you may wish to take notes) Be still and know that I am God. If God wishes to use you to help someone, cool, if he doesn't, cool.
Step three:(you may wish to take notes) Be still and know that I am God. If God wishes to use you to help someone, cool, if he doesn't, cool.
Repeat.
Wonderful insight! :dsunny:
Quote from: VineBranch on January 22, 2013, 02:43:39 AM
Quote from: shawn on January 21, 2013, 06:12:47 PM
Quote from: sheila on January 21, 2013, 06:07:02 PM
:thumbsup: and so what..if God has chosen the weak and foolish things of this earth[flesh is weak] in order to put
the wise and strong to shame?
Right on. I am proof God uses the weak for His purposes...therefore I rejoice in my weaknesses.
I would like to rejoice with Shaw if that would be okay with everyone.
A second or third voice for the rejoicing! :HeartThrob:
Quote from: shawn on January 27, 2013, 11:18:38 PM
Quote from: Lloyd on January 27, 2013, 04:27:40 AM
Thanks a lot for the criticism. Is that the sort of non-discipline that Jesus advises?
I think an important part of sharpening and being sharpened is our ability to listen to others without being personally offended. Offense is merely ego...and there is no ego in love. Read, listen, take what sits well with your spirit...certainly nothing said was meant to hurt feelings...just people sharing where they are in their Christ walk.
Pardon the pentecostal :dsunny: out burst....but GLORY!
Quote from: micah7:9 on February 28, 2013, 03:58:54 AM
Pardon the pentecostal :dsunny: out burst....but GLORY!
Not Pentecostal, but Glory indeed. :dsunny:
Hi Lloyd. I was just thinking about this thread yesterday and that it still bothered me the way you felt. Anyway, I think you came back to this because you were hurt by what seemed like callous responses, and wished to justify your point with scripture. If I am misinterpreting your tone forgive me and ignore the rest if this post. The scripture that really jumped out at me was Gal 5:22-23 that listed self-discipline as a fruit of the spirit. Typically I thought of it as self effort and it was cumbersome, a work. Since my release from trying to be justified by works I can wait to be filled with the Holy Spirit and the things I am able to accomplish are effortless because they are not done in my strength, but when I become weak, hopefully even dead, and Christ in me performs that which I could not. I hope this makes sense. Grace to you! :Peace2:
IMO, Jesus asks us to rest in him, not work in him. the original meaning of the word discipline meant "following" as a disciple was a follower. Discipline from the spirit is an enabling to follow and rest in Christ. Relax. He's doing the work. The reason we will be casting our crowns at his feet at judgment will be that every altruistic act of love we ever did stemmed from the spirit of God.
QuoteQuote from: Lloyd on January 27, 2013, 04:27:40 AM
Thanks a lot for the criticism. Is that the sort of non-discipline that Jesus advises?
QuoteQuote from: shawn on January 27, 2013, 11:18:38 PM
I think an important part of sharpening and being sharpened is our ability to listen to others without being personally offended. Offense is merely ego...and there is no ego in love. Read, listen, take what sits well with your spirit...certainly nothing said was meant to hurt feelings...just people sharing where they are in their Christ walk.
QuoteQuote from: Colleen
Hi Lloyd. I was just thinking about this thread yesterday and that it still bothered me the way you felt. Anyway, I think you came back to this because you were hurt by what seemed like callous responses, and wished to justify your point with scripture. ...
Yes, I was offended by the criticisms. I don't claim to be free of egotism. And hearing it said that I'm egotistic because I'm offended by others sounds like criticism, so I'm offended by that too. All I'm looking for is someone with whom to practice spiritual discipline, so we can work together on overcoming our egotism etc. I'd really like those who are offended by my search for such a person to leave me alone and not reply to this thread at all. How does that sound, critics? Would you like to refrain from offending me further? Eventually, I'm hopeful that someone of like mind will contact me about pursuing some sort of spiritual discipline like how I understand the Bible. Those who are too superior, egotistic, or whatever to seek such discipline are welcome to ignore me on this thread. Okay?
O"Lloyd......just putting up with one another in love when offenses come
IS SPIRITUAL DISCIPLINE......exercizing grace,and forgiving..is spiritual discipline..
we need to be so good at this..that if we be put to death on a cross..
we can say 'Father forgive them,they know not what they do."
Just start joining in on the posts..and you'll get plenty of spiritual discipline
exercize,Brother........ :HeartThrob:
Lloyd a book I found helpful and is free online was recommended to me by someone on this forum. It is terrific with a lot of insight and spiritual deepness. :Peace2:
http://www.jakecolsen.com/JakeStory.pdf (http://www.jakecolsen.com/JakeStory.pdf)
I don't find the word "discipline" in that book. What word should I look for instead? Or what passage are you suggesting? If you're trying to get me to stop looking to learn discipline the way I think I should, what's the point? Do you think I'm sinning by following my own inspiration? Anyone ever hear of "To each his/her own"? Folks seem intolerant around here.
I didn't mean anything like that or even imply it. I said I found the book helpful, had a lot of insight and was spiritually deep.
I guess I shouldv'e stated it had nothing to do one way or the other with discipline. May God bless your efforts. :Peace2:
Hey Lloyd,
Please find it in your heart to forgive us if you think we are being judgmental etc,
What exactly are you finding hard with spiritual discipline? :friendstu:
For me I find it hard to control my thoughts. :Peace2:
Well Lloyd, I don't know if you will come back here or not. It looks like my post offended you too and that was not my intent at all. I, too am sorry and ask your forgiveness. I was trying to say it bothered me that a brother was offended. What I took you to mean as "spiritual discipline" was a bunch more rules to follow to get closer to my Abba. Probably not what you meant at all. As I am just recently released from churchianity I go between feeling guilty and being free often many times in a day or even an hour. Peace to you and blessings on your walk. :girlheart:
Things here seem a bit more hopeful today. I know you all probably have meant well by your various sharings, but I sensed a fair amount of intolerance nonetheless, and I'm guessing the intolerance is largely subconscious, or you all probably would have corrected yourselves before posting. Don't worry, I'm not pretending to be blameless. I'm just trying to be usefully honest.
Thanks to those who asked for forgiveness. I don't think asking for forgiveness is what you should have done. I think the thing to do was to apologize, because only you can forgive yourselves. But I'm not picky. I take the requests for forgiveness as apologies. And I appreciate them. Now I'll reply to recent individual replies.
Quotesheila: O"Lloyd... ...just putting up with one another in love when offenses come IS SPIRITUAL DISCIPLINE... ...exercizing grace,and forgiving..is spiritual discipline.. we need to be so good at this .. that if we be put to death on a cross .. we can say 'Father forgive them, they know not what they do." Just start joining in on the posts .. and you'll get plenty of spiritual discipline
Although you seem to have wanted to make peace by this statement, it felt to me like it had an undercurrent of lack of tolerance for my own way of doing spiritual discipline.
Quoteded2daworld: Lloyd a book I found helpful and is free online was recommended to me by someone on this forum. It is terrific with a lot of insight and spiritual deepness. :Peace2: http://www.jakecolsen.com/JakeStory.pdf
Lloyd: I don't find the word "discipline" in that book. What word should I look for instead? Or what passage are you suggesting? If you're trying to get me to stop looking to learn discipline the way I think I should, what's the point? Do you think I'm sinning by following my own inspiration? Anyone ever hear of "To each his/her own"? Folks seem intolerant around here.
ded2daworld: I didn't mean anything like that or even imply it. I said I found the book helpful, had a lot of insight and was spiritually deep. I guess I shouldv'e stated it had nothing to do one way or the other with discipline. May God bless your efforts. :Peace2:
Since this thread topic is spiritual discipline, I think I had to assume that the book either related to that or to the idea that discipline is folly or something. I accept your last reply as an apology, if you like. I've learned that a change to a friendly attitude can serve as an apology without the need for actual words of apology. So, if it helps, my change of attitude can be taken that way too, if anyone wants to.
Quotemisszoolander: Hey Lloyd, Please find it in your heart to forgive us if you think we are being judgmental etc, What exactly are you finding hard with spiritual discipline? :friendstu: For me I find it hard to control my thoughts. :Peace2:
Thanks, but you're the only one who can forgive yourself if you find you've made a mistake. I think it's necessary to be judgmental in order to distinguish between right and wrong. I think intolerance was the problem. Hopefully, folks will stop being so uptight and will tolerate me doing things in ways that seem right to me, as long as those ways aren't hurting anyone else. Thanks for sharing about difficulty controlling your thoughts. That's the sort of discussion I've been looking for here, which I feel could help my spiritual discipline. My discipline problem includes that a little (thought control), but mainly it involves not having anyone to discuss spiritual matters with, or to discuss weekly plans with. Perhaps I can still solve that problem here.
QuoteColleen: Well Lloyd, I don't know if you will come back here or not. It looks like my post offended you too and that was not my intent at all. I, too am sorry and ask your forgiveness. I was trying to say it bothered me that a brother was offended. What I took you to mean as "spiritual discipline" was a bunch more rules to follow to get closer to my Abba. Probably not what you meant at all. As I am just recently released from churchianity I go between feeling guilty and being free often many times in a day or even an hour. Peace to you and blessings on your walk.
Thanks for the apology and sharing about your problem with false guilt. I'm lucky in not having had much problem with false guilt, as far as I can recall anyway. I know I had a little of that, but not much. I value true guilt, because I want to be aware of my own wrong-doing and I don't know how I could do that without experiencing guilt. Guilt tells me: Lloyd, that wasn't the right thing to do. It doesn't tell me I'm worthless or stupid or hopeless. Those are false guilt. It just tells me I did something wrong and I need to make amends or the like. If you like, feel free to share what your false guilt tells you. Another lucky break for me was overcoming perfectionism. Several decades ago I used to waste a lot of time looking for flaws in my surroundings that I thought I should try to fix. But I was learning helpful spiritual discipline at that time with some other people and that discipline helped me recognize that I was obsessing about flaws instead of asking God for advice. It wasn't until a couple years after that though that I let go of my barriers to God. I wasn't aware of the barriers until I asked myself one day if there was any falsehood to the feeling of loneliness that I occasionally felt. I immediately realized that indeed it was false that I was ever alone in the first place. God is always with me. The reason I felt alone was because I was afraid to get close to God, because I thought he was a perfectionist like Dad, who would have an endless list of difficult unrewarding tasks for me to do if I were to give myself to God. So I saw that God is not like our elders or role models and doesn't want to be our dictator, but just our best friend. God only wants to give us the best advice there is any time we think to ask for it. I'm thinking of posting before long some info on spiritual discipline that I found online lately.
Thanks, but you're the only one who can forgive yourself if you find you've made a mistake. I think it's necessary to be judgmental in order to distinguish between right and wrong. I think intolerance was the problem. Hopefully, folks will stop being so uptight and will tolerate me doing things in ways that seem right to me, as long as those ways aren't hurting anyone else. Thanks for sharing about difficulty controlling your thoughts. That's the sort of discussion I've been looking for here, which I feel could help my spiritual discipline. My discipline problem includes that a little (thought control), but mainly it involves not having anyone to discuss spiritual matters with, or to discuss weekly plans with. Perhaps I can still solve that problem here.
Have I made a mistake? A mistake to me, is if you have taken offence to anything I have said.
Let's move on to the current topic rather then how right/wrong/judgmental we are.
I have trouble controlling my thoughts as my mind afters wanders without me thinking, I often also get strange thoughts just pop up in my head for little reason. These thoughts are not nice... thoughts about revenge, greed, pride.
oh yes....the evil contrast negative input.....firstly..realize that they are not
'you" that you are a new creature born of the will of God. Though they try to
convince you they 'are' you..and have 'your' bests interests at heart..seperate
yourself from them...and realize they have 'no part of you anymore"
Our Father, can and does at times..turn up the volume..of this negative
contrast..so that you may actually hear it as an audible 'voice' That is one
of the things that He did for me,to make me aware. I heard a voice pressuring
me to do something that was not what I wanted!!! I thought,'man,maybe I need a
psychiatrist?" Shook me up a little.
Rebuke them..say 'get behind me satan" etc. or, if around other people,just mentally
do it. One time they 'dogged' me..even though I rebuked them time and again..
til I finally cried out 'how long must I put up with you!" they were trying to stir up
dissension and hard feeling between me and my neighbor. 'venegeance."
they love to wreck any loving kind or peaceful relations between men.
they are often involved with people taking offense,misunderstandings etc.
you can use the opportunity to glorify God in it..and put them in their place
under your feet 'trampled"
they do more than this..incite physical anger...your body may shake as you
submit them under..clenched teeth.......demonic madness or uncontrollable
rages can occur to those who do not get the mastery over them Gen 4;7
Amen to that Sheila.
MissZ I struggled with intrusive thoughts for a long time. Horrible ones. Angry, murderous, etc. It was the exact opposite of who I really am (and who you really are!) Yet the thoughts were so loud and so frequent that I started thinking maybe I was some kind of psychopath. I became extremely anxious and constantly worried that one day I might snap and actually commit some of these thoughts. The demons literally had me convinced that in order to save my family and those around me I had to commit suicide. It was at that time that I first truly cried out to God because I knew what my death would do to my mother yet I could not live like that anymore. Needless to say, He saved me and put great peace and joy into my heart. He has only very recently shown me for a certainty what Sheila just told you - those thoughts are not coming from you! They are from demons. THIS is what He saves us from - sin (demons)! They are horrible because they will place those thoughts there and then accuse you for thinking them! But they aren't you and do not originate from you. Ask Father to show you, it makes a world of difference! He is jealous for us and is going to destroy all those things that hurt us (demons). :HeartThrob:
Or don't you know that the saints will judge the world?
Don't you know that we will judge angels—not to mention ordinary matters?
The battle is in our mind.
I did not have the faith required to cast out demons
in any sort of demonstrative way.
I found that reading from Corinthians, out loud.
Reminded me that I would be judging the angels (fallen)
So I said out loud that which ever demon was messing with me now
I was going to remember to make sure I judged that particular one
That was years ago tremendous relieve from fear replaced by LOVE
Thank you Lord and Savior Jesus Christ
Amen,Daj and Lo. :thumbsup:
...i really am going to have to start reading what i type!
I wonder... are we judging them in a sense now? By rejecting them? Isn't that judgment?
I think it sure could be,Lo.....judgement begins at the 'house' of the Lord...
if His spirit be in you...your body be His temple or 'house' if ye would judge
yourselves 'be a worker at 'home', ye would not be judged. :dontknow:
works for me!
...the spiritual man judges all things,but himself is not judged.
Quote from: sheila on March 03, 2013, 12:57:29 AM
Amen,Daj and Lo. :thumbsup:
...i really am going to have to start reading what i type!
LOL Sheila I was thinking, hmmm I think that's probably supposed to say amen... maybe she got distracted by my lion? :LH:
And yeah, the verse you will judge angels had been in my head the past couple days and the thought kept coming that some of us are judging them now. Rejecting them, considering them worthy to be burned. Sounds like judgment to me!! :gimmefive:
me too!
I think it's important to note the difference between judgment and discernment. Judgment comes from pride, a haughty spirit. There is no love in judgement as it points its nose down at others. Spiritual discernment helps us decide between right and wrong, it also helps us sharpen one another in love.
As for Lloyd being offended by discussion, sharpening, and discernment...well I find that unfortunate. It always pains me when I know my words have offended a brother in Christ. I am not callous to that. With that said, I'm not responsible for how another receives my words, but I am responsible for how I deliver them. I am responsible for the tone, motive, and delivery of spiritual truths as I understand them. So, in cases where a brother is offended I use it as an opportunity to learn and grow. I use it as I would a mirror to look at my reflection.
For me, I do have a propensity for intolerance to ideas and concepts within my spiritual journey that i feel trap, enslave, legalize etc. My reactions to such things can be emotional at times. That visceral reaction can rub others the wrong way. It's something I'm working on.
Lloyd, I should have been more selective with some of my words. I talked to you like someone I have known for years...open, honest...just how I see things. But, on a message board where you can't see my face, body language, or hear my expression I need to be more selective with my word usage.
Btw: I did not call you egotistical. I was expressing the idea of offense coming from ego. We All have ego...are offended, embarrassed etc. When I'm offended, someone insulted my ego, and my reactions to that offense do not come from love.
I dunno Shawn. It clearly says in there that we will judge angels lol! God knows our hearts. I am very aware that pride lives in me... rejecting it - that is judging it as "wrong"... unloving may be a better word. Useless or worthless even. "Dung". I think we can all agree that pride has a dung-like stench, yes? That's what I'm referring to about "judging" the "angels" (evil spirits/sin). It's most likely that judgment has taken on a derogatory term. So quite possibly what you mean by discernment and what I am saying about "judging" are the same things. :)
Quote from: lomarah on March 02, 2013, 11:24:37 PM
Amen to that Sheila.
MissZ I struggled with intrusive thoughts for a long time. Horrible ones. Angry, murderous, etc. It was the exact opposite of who I really am (and who you really are!) Yet the thoughts were so loud and so frequent that I started thinking maybe I was some kind of psychopath. I became extremely anxious and constantly worried that one day I might snap and actually commit some of these thoughts. The demons literally had me convinced that in order to save my family and those around me I had to commit suicide. It was at that time that I first truly cried out to God because I knew what my death would do to my mother yet I could not live like that anymore. Needless to say, He saved me and put great peace and joy into my heart. He has only very recently shown me for a certainty what Sheila just told you - those thoughts are not coming from you! They are from demons. THIS is what He saves us from - sin (demons)! They are horrible because they will place those thoughts there and then accuse you for thinking them! But they aren't you and do not originate from you. Ask Father to show you, it makes a world of difference! He is jealous for us and is going to destroy all those things that hurt us (demons). :HeartThrob:
I recognized pretty quickly that these thoughts were not entirely my own, in fact it felt like my will was being tested, a battle inside the mind. However I am thankful for the tests that my mind has been subjected too, because it has allowed me to double check myself and I am much more aware of my thoughts, and I tend to handle them a lot easier now :)
Lomorah your last two posts on judging have really helped me. Shawn , what clear thinking on written words. Also helpful. I realized how my post came off only after Lloyd pointed it out and how I had misjudged the term so quickly because of my past trauma with ET. Sheila your comments on thoughts reminded me of a time when the powerful words, "these thoughts are not my thoughts" released me from a lot of that negative, accusing chatter was getting louder and more constant in my head and I knew/know so little about spiritual warfare. For example, I cast them off and figured I was done with that for good. Haha, yeah right. It's been such a wild ride for me these last three years. I'm so glad The Lord led me to this forum. Sharpening indeed! More like I got my entire previous fifty years on the potter's wheel pounded back into a lump and started all over. Yes, quite a blow to Mr. Ego! But who would have it any other way with the knowledge of Christ crucified. Bye bye dung! "No, no!", says Mr. Ego. "Yes, yes!", says the new creation.
For me these boards have been a big ETer's anonymous meeting. Maybe we oughtta have a room like that. Maybe we do. Sharing our experience, strength and hope. Taking what we like and leaving the rest.
Oh and Ded a super shout out for the link to "So You Don't Want to Go to Church Anymore. I'm being super blessed!
:URWelcome: :dsunny: :Peace2:
Quote from: lomarah on March 03, 2013, 07:50:48 AM
I dunno Shawn. It clearly says in there that we will judge angels lol! God knows our hearts. I am very aware that pride lives in me... rejecting it - that is judging it as "wrong"... unloving may be a better word. Useless or worthless even. "Dung". I think we can all agree that pride has a dung-like stench, yes? That's what I'm referring to about "judging" the "angels" (evil spirits/sin). It's most likely that judgment has taken on a derogatory term. So quite possibly what you mean by discernment and what I am saying about "judging" are the same things. :)
You have a good point :laughing7:
I'm thinking not about God's judgment, or any sort of judgment that comes after death. I'm thinking about an act that separates ourselves from others.
I cor. 6:3 Are you not aware that we shall be judging messengers, not to mention life's affairs? (CLT)
1Co 6:3 have ye not known that we shall judge messengers? why not then the things of life? (YLT)
3 not know you, that messengers we shall judge? much more then things of this life? (Diaglott)
Quote from: Colleen on March 03, 2013, 02:25:44 PM
Lomorah your last two posts on judging have really helped me. Shawn , what clear thinking on written words. Also helpful. I realized how my post came off only after Lloyd pointed it out and how I had misjudged the term so quickly because of my past trauma with ET. Sheila your comments on thoughts reminded me of a time when the powerful words, "these thoughts are not my thoughts" released me from a lot of that negative, accusing chatter was getting louder and more constant in my head and I knew/know so little about spiritual warfare. For example, I cast them off and figured I was done with that for good. Haha, yeah right. It's been such a wild ride for me these last three years. I'm so glad The Lord led me to this forum. Sharpening indeed! More like I got my entire previous fifty years on the potter's wheel pounded back into a lump and started all over. Yes, quite a blow to Mr. Ego! But who would have it any other way with the knowledge of Christ crucified. Bye bye dung! "No, no!", says Mr. Ego. "Yes, yes!", says the new creation.
For me these boards have been a big ETer's anonymous meeting. Maybe we oughtta have a room like that. Maybe we do. Sharing our experience, strength and hope. Taking what we like and leaving the rest.
I loved this. ETer's anonymous haha that's definitely a big part of what we are here! :)
Your post really blessed me this morning Colleen.
:thumbsup:
Quotemisszoolander: Have I made a mistake? A mistake to me, is if you have taken offence to anything I have said. Let's move on to the current topic rather then how right/wrong/judgmental we are.
The mistake that I felt people were making was being intolerant of my effort to improve my spiritual discipline, because all I seemed to hear at first was criticism of it. I probably can't know if my impression of such intolerance was accurate, but I think that's what communication is for, to get increasingly more accurate impressions. I know I don't communicate perfectly either, so there's generally always a need to try to improve communication.
QuoteI have trouble controlling my thoughts as my mind [... ?] wanders without me thinking, I often also get strange thoughts just pop up in my head for little reason. These thoughts are not nice... thoughts about revenge, greed, pride.
About ten years ago I learned to pray by thanking instead of asking. I think the person I heard that suggestion from got the idea from the gospel somewhere. When I talk to God, I usually refer to Him as Ye. So, when I get the kinds of thoughts you mention, I would tend to respond by saying something like this. "Thank Ye for giving me the discernment to recognize how dangerous that thought is and thanks for removing it from me permanently and for reforming whatever is the source of that crap and for forgiving my naivete' for entertaining the thought." Thanking seems to give me a bit more useful attitude than does asking/pleading, so it's like a done deal, instead of a mere potential eventuality. So far, it seems to have been a big improvement for me. And it's part of my imperfect spiritual discipline. (Thank Ye for providing means to improve that discipline.)
Quote from: Lloyd on March 04, 2013, 12:57:56 AM
About ten years ago I learned to pray by thanking instead of asking. I think the person I heard that suggestion from got the idea from the gospel somewhere. When I talk to God, I usually refer to Him as Ye. So, when I get the kinds of thoughts you mention, I would tend to respond by saying something like this. "Thank Ye for giving me the discernment to recognize how dangerous that thought is and thanks for removing it from me permanently and for reforming whatever is the source of that crap and for forgiving my naivete' for entertaining the thought." Thanking seems to give me a bit more useful attitude than does asking/pleading, so it's like a done deal, instead of a mere potential eventuality. So far, it seems to have been a big improvement for me. And it's part of my imperfect spiritual discipline. (Thank Ye for providing means to improve that discipline.)
I like that Lloyd :thumbsup:
I do too. Thank you Lloyd. My first thought was of God calling things that are not, as though they are. Just beautiful!
From others we've learned how in noble condescending gestures to quickly try to insert the "grace" idea if anyone says anything about doing something with God. "They must be in legalistic bondage," we've been told. Gene Edwards said there are only three denominations: the think-ers, the be-ers, and the do-ers. I've noticed the think-ers and the be-ers zealously proselytize the do-rs, often telling everybody how wrong they are. Often this is the product of a sectarian carnal mind, rather than following the spirit. Claiming it's a call to do-ers to come into their fellowship, they alienate by condemning what they don't understand. Thinking, being and doing are part of everybody's life.
Quote from: reFORMer on March 04, 2013, 09:04:10 AM
From others we've learned how in noble condescending gestures to quickly try to insert the "grace" idea if anyone says anything about doing something with God. "They must be in legalistic bondage," we've been told. Gene Edwards said there are only three denominations: the think-ers, the be-ers, and the do-ers. I've noticed the think-ers and the be-ers zealously proselytize the do-rs, often telling everybody how wrong they are. Often this is the product of a sectarian carnal mind, rather than following the spirit. Claiming it's a call to do-ers to come into their fellowship, they alienate by condemning what they don't understand. Thinking, being and doing are part of everybody's life.
Interesting thoughts. But, I wonder why the segregation at all? Isn't this about where our eyes are turned? We all think, be, and do. The question remains where our eyes should be. From my experience, If my watchful eyes are on me, my do and be are utterly carnal and sickening to my spirit. I can't. That I know. By his grace I can focus my eyes on Christ. My do is then an extension of relationship, not an extension of white knuckling down what I believe I should be doing.
For me, my "doing something with God" ends with me looking at my failures. It becomes more about me doing than God doing. I focus on why I'm not doing it right. Today, I'm utterly convinced that I couldn't, can't, and won't unless its all God. Even the faith I have today is from Him. My ability to turn my eyes upon Him is from Him. How can I partner with God? I'm not much of a partner. So, today I eagerly await.
They that wait upon the Lord shall renew their strength.
Our waiting produces right relationship through hearing(faith comes by hearing), which activates/renews our being. This shines out through our thinking, which begins to change into accord with our being- impowered with might by His Spirit in the inner man. This opens the door for the Spirit's doing in and through us- for it is God who is in us to will and to work of His pleasure.
Sounds so easy and reasonable ;o)
:thumbsup:
PS - HAPPY BIRTHDAY TO YOUUUUUU!! :friendstu:
Quote from: eaglesway on March 04, 2013, 05:49:36 PM
They that wait upon the Lord shall renew their strength.
Our waiting produces right relationship through hearing(faith comes by hearing), which activates/renews our being. This shines out through our thinking, which begins to change into accord with our being- impowered with might by His Spirit in the inner man. This opens the door for the Spirit's doing in and through us- for it is God who is in us to will and to work of His pleasure.
Sounds so easy and reasonable ;o)
That is how I understand it as well.
I feel a need to say something. Maybe this is just for me, but I suspect it isn't. I am a child of two alcoholics. As much as I love my parents, I realize I learned some things in my childhood that effected my relationship with God. These things I had to unlearn to find freedom. In childhood I learned that I needed to do, and to be in order to find love and acceptance. If I succeeded and accomplished then I was worthy of affection. I was significant. If I failed, I was not. Learning a works based image of myself was destructable to my spirit. It left me constantly feeling like I didn't measure up, guilt ridden, inept, depressed, and anxious. Where is God in that?
I believe the Law is there to show us our need for God. Grace is there because I can't. Today, I still struggle with self image issues, specifically the how does God feel about me question. I know intellectually that God loves me unconditionally. I understand grace on a cognitive level. But, I have been recently shown that many of my actions show that I haven't internalized either of those things. My faith in God's love has been tested and I have been found wanting. But, what I know is this...that the mirror comes out before the change. I become aware, then God moves. It has little to nothing to do with me. In fact I believe it happens despite me, outside of me.
I am also aware that we all have our own personal journey. And I too can get caught up with trying to transpose my experience upon another. It's something I have to be very careful about.
Quote from: shawn on March 04, 2013, 06:23:39 PM
Quote from: eaglesway on March 04, 2013, 05:49:36 PM
They that wait upon the Lord shall renew their strength.
Our waiting produces right relationship through hearing(faith comes by hearing), which activates/renews our being. This shines out through our thinking, which begins to change into accord with our being- impowered with might by His Spirit in the inner man. This opens the door for the Spirit's doing in and through us- for it is God who is in us to will and to work of His pleasure.
Sounds so easy and reasonable ;o)
That is how I understand it as well.
I feel a need to say something. Maybe this is just for me, but I suspect it isn't. I am a child of two alcoholics. As much as I love my parents, I realize I learned some things in my childhood that effected my relationship with God. These things I had to unlearn to find freedom. In childhood I learned that I needed to do, and to be in order to find love and acceptance. If I succeeded and accomplished then I was worthy of affection. I was significant. If I failed, I was not. Learning a works based image of myself was destructable to my spirit. It left me constantly feeling like I didn't measure up, guilt ridden, inept, depressed, and anxious. Where is God in that?
I believe the Law is there to show us our need for God. Grace is there because I can't. Today, I still struggle with self image issues, specifically the how does God feel about me question. I know intellectually that God loves me unconditionally. I understand grace on a cognitive level. But, I have been recently shown that many of my actions show that I haven't internalized either of those things. My faith in God's love has been tested and I have been found wanting. But, what I know is this...that the mirror comes out before the change. I become aware, then God moves. It has little to nothing to do with me. In fact I believe it happens despite me, outside of me.
I am also aware that we all have our own personal journey. And I too can get caught up with trying to transpose my experience upon another. It's something I have to be very careful about.
I love you my friend and I am so well aware of OUR Father's love being unconditional, and there is my rest, amid all my unrest. Thank you my friend and brother. :HeartThrob: :dsunny:
well,Shawn..there is in fact a place of spiritual exhaustion.....have been
there myself....he wore out the saints...the nations exhaust themselves for
nothing.....and love requires total rest for such.Even while you sleep/rest
among the campfires..your wings are sheathed with silver.
rest for the weary....if you rest..rest in the Lord....if you do,do as
unto the Lord...all things are pure unto the pure.
A very frightened puppy when consoled ,will tell the whole world
he feels save . Using body language and cooing wimpier.
Then before you know it he is off playing and exploring .
As long as he knows the Alpha or master are near by he has no fear.
I of late have finished proving to myself that the master is always near.
I would definitely call the season I am in.
Alpha play time and Alpha explore time.
Quote from: sheila on March 04, 2013, 06:56:30 PM
well,Shawn..there is in fact a place of spiritual exhaustion.....have been
there myself....he wore out the saints...the nations exhaust themselves for
nothing.....and love requires total rest for such.Even while you sleep/rest
among the campfires..your wings are sheathed with silver.
rest for the weary....if you rest..rest in the Lord....if you do,do as
unto the Lord...all things are pure unto the pure.
That brought a tear to my eye. Thank you for you for that.
Quote from: micah7:9 on March 04, 2013, 06:53:16 PM
Quote from: shawn on March 04, 2013, 06:23:39 PM
Quote from: eaglesway on March 04, 2013, 05:49:36 PM
They that wait upon the Lord shall renew their strength.
Our waiting produces right relationship through hearing(faith comes by hearing), which activates/renews our being. This shines out through our thinking, which begins to change into accord with our being- impowered with might by His Spirit in the inner man. This opens the door for the Spirit's doing in and through us- for it is God who is in us to will and to work of His pleasure.
Sounds so easy and reasonable ;o)
That is how I understand it as well.
I feel a need to say something. Maybe this is just for me, but I suspect it isn't. I am a child of two alcoholics. As much as I love my parents, I realize I learned some things in my childhood that effected my relationship with God. These things I had to unlearn to find freedom. In childhood I learned that I needed to do, and to be in order to find love and acceptance. If I succeeded and accomplished then I was worthy of affection. I was significant. If I failed, I was not. Learning a works based image of myself was destructable to my spirit. It left me constantly feeling like I didn't measure up, guilt ridden, inept, depressed, and anxious. Where is God in that?
I believe the Law is there to show us our need for God. Grace is there because I can't. Today, I still struggle with self image issues, specifically the how does God feel about me question. I know intellectually that God loves me unconditionally. I understand grace on a cognitive level. But, I have been recently shown that many of my actions show that I haven't internalized either of those things. My faith in God's love has been tested and I have been found wanting. But, what I know is this...that the mirror comes out before the change. I become aware, then God moves. It has little to nothing to do with me. In fact I believe it happens despite me, outside of me.
I am also aware that we all have our own personal journey. And I too can get caught up with trying to transpose my experience upon another. It's something I have to be very careful about.
I love you my friend and I am so well aware of OUR Father's love being unconditional, and there is my rest, amid all my unrest. Thank you my friend and brother. :HeartThrob: :dsunny:
Brother, I love you as well. Rest amid the unrest, I like that. I grow exhausted wrestling with myself. I have no choice but to turn my eyes upon Him.
"and Jacob wrestled with the christophany(Angel of the Lord) until sun was about to rise" :Peace2:
Waiting... Possibly the greatest spiritual discipline and the most fruitful.
I love lamp... Oops... I love forum (obscure humor)
Quote from: Colleen on March 04, 2013, 10:21:44 PM
I love lamp... Oops... I love forum (obscure humor)
:thumbsup:
Quoteshawn:
Today, I'm utterly convinced that I couldn't, can't, and won't unless its all God. Even the faith I have today is from Him. My ability to turn my eyes upon Him is from Him. How can I partner with God? I'm not much of a partner.
I think God values us more highly than what we can imagine (and for good reason).
Quoteeaglesway:
His Spirit in the inner man ... opens the door for the Spirit's doing in and through us- for it is God who is in us to will and to work of His pleasure.
Sounds so easy and reasonable ;o)
If we're not God, then we're not just God talking to Himself. I think there's an US. Maybe it's good not to think highly of our own selves, but it seems to me it's good to think highly of each other. We shouldn't think little of each other, should we?
Quoteshawn:
Today, I still struggle with self image issues, specifically the how does God feel about me question. I know intellectually that God loves me unconditionally. I understand grace on a cognitive level. But, I have been recently shown that many of my actions show that I haven't internalized either of those things. My faith in God's love has been tested and I have been found wanting. But, what I know is this...that the mirror comes out before the change. I become aware, then God moves. It has little to nothing to do with me. In fact I believe it happens despite me, outside of me.
Speaking of Alcoholics, I used to attend AA, Alanon and Oa meetings etc. That's where I gradually came to know God as my best friend. It took me a few years to realize that my concept of God was based largely on my Dad's character. Intellectually I had no such concept, but subconsciously I gave God many of Dad's attributes, probably when I was very young. When I finally asked myself one day if my loneliness was an illusion, that's when I noticed my barrier to God and that the barrier was my false belief that God is like my Dad. I realized then that my actual belief had been that God is a slave-driving perfectionist who wanted me to obey his every command instantly and perfectly like a robot or slave with no mind or will of my own and that there would be little reward for all of my effort and accomplishment. That's how Dad had treated me.
What a lucky break it was that I had that discussion with myself that day. I was able to let go of that ridiculous false belief and have immediate access to my best friend who always has the best advice for me that there is. I've continued to be dense enough that I probably don't understand God's inspiration real well yet, but it was a huge relief to have my barrier to God fall away so easily. It was emotionally a very moving experience for me that lasted a long time, because of sensing the caring (love) that removed that huge burden from me and that told me God respects me so much that He wants me to be the owner of myself to make my own decisions, but always have access to His friendly advice with no strings attached and no requirement that I follow it until I'm good and ready to. It was a very hard life I lived before that and the relief I felt added to the caring I sensed that saved me from a life of misery, like the misery that many people experience way too long.
I feel like the prodigal son. And I like to stay mindful of the parable of talents. I mean the parable about people who were given different numbers of talents of silver, I think, and, when the owner of the talents returned, some used the talents to good profit, but one hid them away for safekeeping, but was rebuked for not gaining any profit from the talents. I don't sense that my friend, God, rebukes me for wasting my talents, or that he nags me to use them. But I want to pass on to others the caring He shows me by helping others find His friendship as I did. There's too much misery in the world and I want to take responsibility for doing my part to help end it. I want to use my talents well.
Moving, touching and I can relate Lloyd :thumbsup: :dsunny: :HeartThrob:
The prodigal son story is one of my favorites, as I feel this truly represents me.
Sometimes I feel guilty looking back, all the stupid stuff I did, but I am glad that through God he has made me new, and making me newer (if that makes sense) every step of the way.
I too saw God as distant, way too good for a mere adulteress like me. I use to put him at the back of my mind, but continue for my search of unfailing love in ordinary men. In the end I become a very heart broken, insecure women (pretty much sums up the pigs pen). I decided enough was enough and I made an effort to go back to my Heavenly Father. However it was a struggle, there were a few deaths in my family and the thought of eternal hell, and the pain and suffering in this world made God feel even more distant, I started to become a half-hearted Christian, who relied more on the Church than God. It was not until I truly felt the love of God, that's when I noticed I started changing. My behavior changed because I recognized the love he had for me, and rather staying as the grudging servant I was, I became a daughter wanting to please her Father.
Initially, folks here seemed to have great resistance to the idea of discussing using discipline, but I think it was a knee-jerk reaction, more than anything, and it was apparently based on incorrect assumptions and impulses.
If you think about it, discipline is an important part of living, especially for Godly people. Throughout each day, we have thoughts almost constantly. Each moment God gives us free will to choose what thoughts to have and what environment to put ourselves in. It's usually so automatic, that we don't realize we're making choices each moment. Each choice is either more Godly or less Godly. Discipline teaches us to make each choice more Godly.
The Bible suggests that making more Godly choices leads to literal prosperity and making less Godly choices leads to destruction, especially for whole cities and nations. The promise of the Bible is for Heaven on Earth as well as in the afterlife.
I appreciate you sharing that about your dad. Being in recovery I tend to recognize my own, and that includes other children of alcoholics. We have certain traits that we fight, and one of them tends to be image of God issues. I'm glad to hear you have worked through alot of that. But, if you ever need to talk to someone who understands specifically about that kind of stuff, hit me up with a PM.
Quote from: Lloyd on March 05, 2013, 08:10:56 PM
If you think about it, discipline is an important part of living, especially for Godly people. Throughout each day, we have thoughts almost constantly. Each moment God gives us free will to choose what thoughts to have and what environment to put ourselves in. It's usually so automatic, that we don't realize we're making choices each moment. Each choice is either more Godly or less Godly. Discipline teaches us to make each choice more Godly.
I appreciate your post immensely Lloyd. I however have found the opposite to be true. I grew up in an alcoholic co/dependent family. I have my own addiction issues, and have tended to find those who dance the same dance since school. I thought to discipline my way out. I had schedules and classes and planned times for all things I thought were spiritual. Bible reading, prayer, eating with proper attitude, making sure I didn't walk too fast, or too slow, trying to make everything I did spiritual in nature even though it needed to be physical in expression. Structure and discipline ruled. It worked for a while.
What I found was that a task master, regardless of how nicely adorned, or spiritually articulated, is a task master. I have found that my Dad is not a task master. He is my Dad. If I don't reach a goal I've set for myself, he hugs me and tells me He loves me. If I do reach a goal I've set for myself, he hugs me and tells me He loves me. I have found that I don't disappoint the Father, by being exactly whom He created. I'm just as likely to fall asleep in church as on the couch. In either case, I fall asleep in His arms. IMO He didn't create me to achieve anything (my Calvinist ancestors are spinning around in their graves like little dynamos). He didn't create me to be spiritual. He didn't create me to accomplish x,y,or z. He created me, because it pleased Him to do so. IMO it ain't about me, it truly just ain't.
Naptime ... look a butterfly.
Quote from: VineBranch on March 06, 2013, 07:19:13 AM
Naptime ... look a butterfly.
That's very zen, VB. I mean that in the best possible way. It makes weird sense, like my daughter's haiku:
haikus are easy
but sometimes they don't make sense
refrigerator
U said it better than I could VB and our experiences were similar. :Peace2:
Back to knee-jerk reactions against discipline it seems. Discipline is the same as habit or routine. We can discipline ourselves to seek God's will or to seek our own will. The latter leads to pain due to illusions. We can discipline ourselves to get carried away with mindless discipline. That doesn't mean discipline is bad. It means mindless discipline is bad etc.
I feel that God talks to us partly through our emotions. Unpleasant emotions tell me there is an error in my thinking. Seemingly like most people, I grew up thinking that my unpleasant emotions were caused by other people or events doing wrong to me. It was a surprise to learn that I cause those emotions myself, by my misconceptions. And I've found many times that by shining God's light on my unpleasant emotions, the misconceptions come to light and soon leave me, as darkness cannot exist in the light.
I learned to be pretty alert to my unpleasant emotions. Yesterday, I read a member expressing love for another member. I'm glad members get along, but upon reading the expression of love I had a feeling of annoyance and nausea at the thought of being loved by anyone besides God. It seems that it's probably true that, when people say they love someone, they often unfairly want or expect something in return. But, if there's a misconception behind the nausea I felt, I guess what's false (my misconception) is that I'm in danger of being burdened with someone's unfair expectations. So thank Ye for relieving my worry about that. Next time I hear an expression of love, I'll probably feel less nausea.
Ah, I forgot you didn't want to hear any dissenting opinions. Sorry.
You go for it, Lloyd. We who have experienced what you want to do were only trying to save you some misery but I guess it's something you have to experience. As I said before, may God bless your efforts and I really would like to see this discipline actually work for someone and bring them closer to the Lord. :Peace2:
Quote from: Lloyd on March 06, 2013, 07:47:34 PM
Back to knee-jerk reactions against discipline it seems. Discipline is the same as habit or routine.
Tarnation anyway. Just one cotton pickin' minute here. I'll admit that at my age, my knees do things I never imagined they would have to nerve to do by themselves when I was younger, but hold on there... It took my nigh on three decades to come up with the notion that discipline was a way for folk to control themselves a future to their liking. Now you tell me it's cause I didn't have the intellegence God gave a turnip and couldn't have possibly (with God's help) figured it out: why I oughta ....
The problem is Lloyd, in my very humble opinion, just cause someone disagrees with you doesn't mean they is stoopid. They could actually have more scholarship, experience, and insight then you. Calling what they do knee-jerk invalidates what might be years of study. By the way, knee jerk (in the informal usage) means reacting according to a certain habitual manner, reacting in an unthinking manner. How does y'all feel about using that one on your definition of discipline? You said: "Discipline is the same as habit or routine." I feel like I has the right to say to you ... Back to knee-jerk reactions in favour of discipline it seems.
Quote from: Lloyd on March 06, 2013, 07:47:34 PM
Next time I hear an expression of love, I'll probably feel less nausea.
Try living your life without once hearing an expression of love, and see if it doesn't want to make you thow up. :2c:
Lloyd said, "I'm glad members get along, but upon reading the expression of love I had a feeling of annoyance and nausea at the thought of being loved by anyone besides God."
I feel sadness for you Lloyd. True love, real love has no expectations on the loved one. We are commanded to love one another. Apostle John said, "He who says he loves God and does not love his brother is a liar" Jesus said that what we do to others is the same as doing it to Him. Many of us therefore make attempts at treating each person as if that person were the Lord himself, even to the point of dying for them. Jesus said, "No greater love is this, that a man lay down his life for his friends" I hope that I'm misunderstanding. Jesus said, If we can't love our neighbor that we have seen, then how can we love God whom we haven't seen" All these verses, strongly imply that you must let others love you and you must love others to be in a right relationship with God. :friendstu:
Lloyd
I'm glad you were able to trace that visceral reaction back to its roots and hopefully dig it up and toss it out. I too struggle with love and expectations going together even though they don't.
My experience in childhood under an abusive dad tells me not to trust communication with some people (but I don't totally trust what my experience tells me either). It also confuses my thinking, so I can't communicate well anyway. My habit is to avoid such situations, but that may be too extreme a reaction and sometimes self-defeating. I seem to live too solitary a life - a sheltered life. I don't mean any offense by ignoring everyone for now.
Love, the lesson of life. I pray we all learn this lesson with the help of the Lord. :HeartThrob:
IMO, all our Father wants is for us to learn to love Him and all his children(the rest of mankind) :Peace2:
My Confusion
VB & Ded misunderstood my previous post in which I said hearing expression of love nauseated me. But Colleen seemed to understand. I wasn't saying nausea was the correct way to react. I was saying my displeasures usually are signs of something being wrong with me, not necessarily with anyone else, as they say in AA etc. So I expect I'm letting go of that defect in my thinking. I wasn't justifying my nausea. I was letting go of my defective thinking that produces the nausea.
I felt discouraged yesterday when I found that I had been misunderstood again. I was despairing of ever having productive discussion on this forum thread. When I have difficulty communicating, I get confused and am then even less able to communicate. So I took a nap, hoping the confusion would dissipate. But it lasted quite a few hours after the nap. I think it did dissipate last night.
My Next Mistaken Thinking
What added to my confusion was VB's attack on the idea of seeking discipline. I can understand warning against mindless, extremist, or unrighteous discipline, but righteousness requires righteous discipline, so it seems unsound and extremist to argue against all discipline. My upbringing taught me to avoid people who seem irrational, because Dad often seemed irrational when he was often angry and he was verbally abusive and sometimes physically abusive too. So I tend to feel confused and threatened when I hear seemingly unfriendly disagreement. But I realize now that my fear was over-generalized. The fear was apparently somewhat helpful when I was young, but not so much since then, when Dad was no longer my "caregiver". Thank Ye for correcting my thinking. So I'm more hopeful again today that this discipline thread may be helpful for me and maybe others.
Lloyd, I did misunderstand what you said my brother so it's on me for making assumptions. :sigh:
VB's attack on discipline wasn't against discipline per say. VB and I are in our sixties and simply wanted to stop going down a wrong road (like VB and I both did) thinking discipline was the answer. Discipline makes you a better person, no question about it - but - it is a work and we have a tendency to be proud and say(or think) "I'm a much better person now" you may be in the world's eyes but Love interferes with discipline. Discipline is self centered. When I was bodybuilding 40 some years ago, social and religious events were put on hold or dismissed so that I wouldn't miss a workout and boy was I proud of the way I looked. I consider it all garbage now. The only thing I want to know is Christ. Better and better, closer and closer. IMO, the best way to know Christ and get closer to him is listening and going out and loving people as if Jesus himself were living in your body. If your a believer, He is. The hope of glory. :Peace2:
hey Llyod....I want to share this 'thing" I have..that makes nausea come up in me.
I was a Jehovah's wittness. when I first heard that God has a name 'Jehovah" it was
so sweet on my tongue...I loved that name. !0 yrs later..after the legalistic spiritual
'training' they put me through...when I hear the name 'Jehovah" I get a nauseous
feeling. Someone use it on the board[and I know they are not 'jw'] it still happens...
all the pain and bad feelings of that 'captivity" is associated with it.
I calll Him Father....... and many of us here are very leary and once bitten twice shy
about ANYONE SAYING WE MUST DO THIS AND THAT...for our spiritual bondage in Babylon
has been painful on a lot of us. and after Jesus set us free from such things..they are
odious to us. and we get a knee-jerk reaction..to anything that even 'appears' it might
have to do with it.or lead us into bondage again.
This does not mean that we don't receive spiritual discipline..or even practice it ourselves
as His spirit leads,my Brother. :HeartThrob:
i think it is some kind of 'conditioning' that certain words and phrases bring up this reaction
in it. Ded2 is that way with new age linguistic terms..I am that way with 'Jehovah" and
legalistic terms of salvation etc.
I get this 'worm belly" reaction....I liken it to manna out of it's proper time..breeding worms.. :eek:
Yeah Sheila I hear you!! I call Him Father or YHWH or I AM, depending on how He is revealing Himself/communicating with me at any moment. I very much prefer Yeshua to Jesus. It's sad that the names have taken on "bad odours" to many.
Quote from: Lloyd on March 08, 2013, 05:26:14 PM
What added to my confusion was VB's attack on the idea of seeking discipline.
I wasn't attacking you seeking discipline. I was attacking your assumption that what we said came from a bunch of idiots who couldn't possibly know what they were talking about. I took you to task for saying: "Back to knee-jerk reactions against discipline it seems." To me, that sentence says that anyone who disagreed with you was simply responding to an involuntary spasm, and couldn't possible have a good reason for their disagreeing with you. You came across as being the one and only enlightened one and we had better listen to your wisdom. I thought you were being rude, disrespectful, and arrogant. Judging from you latest post, I still do. Dissuade me of that notion if you will.
Oh ded ... mid fifties.
Llyod says
I had already co-written a book, called The Miracle of Peace, which I hoped would help persuade Christians against unjust war. And I've had the thought for several years that I need to collaborate with Jesus' followers more closely
Lloyd says When I came here, I didn't have a specific agenda in mind.
Lloyd you have been trying for quite awhile to sell your agenda.
Every time it is rejected .You Cry that we are intolerant .
QuoteDed said: Discipline is self centered.
Your statement is a half-truth. To be accurate you have to say "Unrighteous discipline is self-centered". Righteous discipline is not self-centered, it's from the Holy Spirit, and that's what the Bible advises for us, as I quoted earlier. Praying is discipline. Loving our neighbors is discipline. A lot of things are righteous discipline.
QuoteSheila said: 10 yrs later..after the legalistic spiritual 'training' they put me through...when I hear the name 'Jehovah" I get a nauseous feeling.
I was in a loose-knit cult-like group too for 20 years, but maybe not as bad as JW etc. They call themselves Faithists. I gave it up when I found that their claims about history etc didn't seem to pan out. They're actually much like CUs, but they tend to have blind faith in their inspired literature.
I don't know if you noticed, but when I have unpleasant emotions, like nausea, I've learned to suspect that the cause is something wrong in my thinking. I first learned from Natural Hygiene that physical discomfort is generally caused by something harming our bodies. Then when I joined 12 Step groups I heard something similar about uncomfortable emotions. They're usually caused by something harming our minds, something like false beliefs, like those I've discussed here before.
The AA 12 & 12 book has this statement: "It is a spiritual axiom that every time we are disturbed, no matter what the cause, there is something wrong with us." So I put 2 and 2 together and figured that it's something wrong with our thinking. Most of us learn in childhood that our unpleasant emotions are caused by other people or by unfortunate circumstances. When I heard that it's usually really something wrong in ourselves, I tested it numerous times and it nearly always seemed to prove true. When I'm disturbed there's something wrong in my thinking. I think Jesus' life supports that idea. He got angry at the money changers in the temple, apparently, but other than that, he never seemed to be disturbed by anything. Even being crucified didn't disturb him much.
Anyway my simple discipline of looking for wrong thinking in myself as the possible cause of my uncomfortable emotions seems to have helped me a lot to get closer to God and to let go of a lot of wrong thinking or wrong ideas.
QuoteDajo said: Llyod when you co wrote your book The Miracle of Peace did you co write it with
Lois Alejandra Klaric?
No, I don't remember that name. The other writers can be seen at http://2mop.webs.com (http://2mop.webs.com).
QuoteVB said: I wasn't attacking you seeking discipline. I was attacking your assumption that what we said came from a bunch of idiots who couldn't possibly know what they were talking about.
Thanks for not opposing my seeking discipline. And thank Ye for explaining to VB his impression was not all that accurate, if at all.
Six months ago when we would not join your group you said we were intolerant.
Honest people speaking honestly seldom are misunderstood.
You seem to be misunderstood a Lot .
OK, no need to pile on Lloyd. :o) Let's keep working towards understanding one another and keep our statements based in the scriptures and in the right spirit- then, even if we misunderstand or are misunderstood, we have someplace to go from here besides antagonism.
The statement Lloyd made about spiritual discipline versus fleshly discipline is a good one I think- and we all have at one time or another "passed through" a learning curve about how to communicate positively on the forum. Most of us are still "passing through" on the way, I hope, to a better grace :o)
The difference between sharing in order to press my point of view or rebutt yours and/or sharing in the hope that we come to an understanding is a fine line- but worthy of constant attempts.
I still maintain that discipline is self-centered.IMO, "If it is not of the spirit, it is sin" Sin is self-centeredness. If you aren't praying out of love and must discipline yourself to do it, the wrong attitude is there. If you discipline yourself to volunteer at a homeless shelter rather than doing it out of love, the wrong attitude is there. If you discipline yourself to set aside a certain amount or percentage of money to the Lord (as under compulsion)rather to give with a joyful heart, it is the wrong attitude.
Whenever we "do" anything to "score brownie points with God" it is us and not the spirit working in us. And, if it is indeed us, we think better of ourselves for "what we do for God" - God help us. The only "discipline" I would recognize it that of carefully listening to the voice of God and even then, the more you do it, the less of a discipline and the more of a joyous walking with the Lord as Adam did. If you think disciplining yourself to NOT be self-centered - you're still doing it of you and your efforts NOT the Holy Spirit working in you. :2c:
Quote from: ded2daworld on March 09, 2013, 03:39:35 PM
I still maintain that discipline is self-centered.IMO, "If it is not of the spirit, it is sin" Sin is self-centeredness. If you aren't praying out of love and must discipline yourself to do it, the wrong attitude is there. If you discipline yourself to volunteer at a homeless shelter rather than doing it out of love, the wrong attitude is there. If you discipline yourself to set aside a certain amount or percentage of money to the Lord (as under compulsion)rather to give with a joyful heart, it is the wrong attitude.
Whenever we "do" anything to "score brownie points with God" it is us and not the spirit working in us. And, if it is indeed us, we think better of ourselves for "what we do for God" - God help us. The only "discipline" I would recognize it that of carefully listening to the voice of God and even then, the more you do it, the less of a discipline and the more of a joyous walking with the Lord as Adam did. If you think disciplining yourself to NOT be self-centered - you're still doing it of you and your efforts NOT the Holy Spirit working in you. :2c:
Too True!!
I have started to see there is really no difference between right theology, right discipline, right thought, right motivation ... what ever you do to control the future is equal. IMO you may as well have a religion, or practice yoga, or do transcendental Meditation if all you want is results.
Quote from: ded2daworld on March 09, 2013, 03:39:35 PM
I still maintain that discipline is self-centered.IMO, "If it is not of the spirit, it is sin" Sin is self-centeredness. If you aren't praying out of love and must discipline yourself to do it, the wrong attitude is there. If you discipline yourself to volunteer at a homeless shelter rather than doing it out of love, the wrong attitude is there. If you discipline yourself to set aside a certain amount or percentage of money to the Lord (as under compulsion)rather to give with a joyful heart, it is the wrong attitude.
Whenever we "do" anything to "score brownie points with God" it is us and not the spirit working in us. And, if it is indeed us, we think better of ourselves for "what we do for God" - God help us. The only "discipline" I would recognize it that of carefully listening to the voice of God and even then, the more you do it, the less of a discipline and the more of a joyous walking with the Lord as Adam did. If you think disciplining yourself to NOT be self-centered - you're still doing it of you and your efforts NOT the Holy Spirit working in you. :2c:
Such a rigid view of things can be self-centered too. Just saying. :2c:
The Holy spirit separated Paul from the masses and empowered him.
The early church was blessed with wonderful gifts from the Holy Spirit.
As Judas tried to force the hand of God.
So some of the groups using the internet to force the hand of God.
Everything thing you can imagine that must happen and will happen
according to the internet has already happened.
Lets start a new country ,lets start a new city.
We will be safe ,we can keep out undesirables .
Lets separate from all those ungodly heathens.
There are people out there now phishing for people to join there
city, country.
This is NOT a move of the Holy Spirit .
In the Spirit of Love
I would say to Lloyd the real power of the Holy Spirit,
the Gifts of the Holy Spirit are a comfort.
I hope you stay in contact here .(You are safe here)
For me the only spiritual discipline is LOVE....Let It Shine and HE will bring me into His walk, and give me a more filling answer to all my wondering. Yeah my opinion :dsunny:
Quote from: micah7:9 on March 09, 2013, 09:03:36 PM
For me the only spiritual discipline is LOVE....Let It Shine and HE will bring me into His walk, and give me a more filling answer to all my wondering. Yeah my opinion :dsunny:
K!? I think I get that but am having a really hard time seeing love as a discipline. I see UR based on love, but as a natural outpouring of God's love, not as a way of bringing about something. I think UR is a result of love, and God's love is something natural. I was created to love and be loved by God. I can't see it as a discipline. Just my :2c:
VB, you opined that I'm arrogant and that I regard others as stupid. Yesterday, I made only a brief reply, because I was getting a very painful headache or migraine and had to go home to seek relief. But it lasted all night.
I suppose what upset you was my reply to what you shared about your bad experience with discipline. You said you had tried extensive discipline and then found a major problem with it - I don't recall what - and you decided discipline is bad. You say you were only trying to warn me against having such a bad experience. But it felt to me like you were trying to pressure me not to pursue discipline. In my reply I implied that the type of discipline you had tried was mindless discipline.
Since then you've been suggesting that I was calling you and maybe others stupid. But I had said the same about myself earlier. I shared that I used to have the habit of looking for flaws in my surroundings in order to plan to improve them. I think I looked for flaws in people, including myself, and in relationships too. I don't remember if I wrote down brief notes as reminders at that point. But the spiritual discipline I was learning at that time made me aware that I was engaging in a mindless or pointless habit. So I stopped looking for flaws and became more accepting of them. And later I learned to ask God for his advice more often so I could correct only the flaws that He would seem to recommend.
I do regard most, if not all, people as naive and that includes me. I think I've demonstrated my naivete' here pretty well lately. I communicate imperfectly and end up annoying people. Sometimes it's my fault. I had said earlier that I was offended by what I took as opposition to my efforts to seek spiritual discipline. Yesterday, I shared a quote I like that says any time we're disturbed, no matter the cause, there's something wrong with us. So when I felt offended it's likely that something was wrong with my thinking, such as that I had a naive fear that I would not be able to find the spiritual discipline I felt I needed.
I had time to think about this last night a bit and maybe some of those thoughts are worth sharing. When I have pain, like the migraine last night, I tend to feel annoyed or resentful that there's no way to turn it off healthfully. I thought about my painful emotions too, the annoyance and resentment. I figured that those emotions probably only add to the physical pain, instead of reducing it. So I tried to find what naive ideas might be behind them. I guess it's fear of having a miserable life, of being alone in misery. The thought occurred to me some days or weeks ago that we have pain so we can care more about others who have pain. If we don't have pain ourselves, it's harder for us to imagine that others are in pain and need help. I was hoping that letting go of my fear and resentment of pain would reduce the pain, but it didn't seem to do that much. But my attitude seems be better just the same. I seem to be more confident about God's love. It's not fun to doubt His love.
I wrote the previous message before reading the messages that were posted after my message yesterday. I appreciate those who welcome me here. Anyone else who doesn't want to discuss righteous discipline, I'd like you to say so on a different thread or via private message. I'd like to just be able to discuss discipline here without any more interference. Okay?
OK with me, I've lead horses to water. :Peace2:
Quote from: Lloyd on March 09, 2013, 11:42:41 PM
I wrote the previous message before reading the messages that were posted after my message yesterday. I appreciate those who welcome me here. Anyone else who doesn't want to discuss righteous discipline, I'd like you to say so on a different thread or via private message. I'd like to just be able to discuss discipline here without any more interference. Okay?
You know Lloyd IMO you can't have it both ways. You can't change the message inside the post, it's really not fair. One of the reasons you came here was to flog your book. You can't tell me your English is so good that you wish us all to read your book, and then tell us your English is bad when you don't want to take the flack for offending people. You tell me you're the author of a book in English, and expect me to take you seriously, and then tell me: "I think I've demonstrated my naivete' here pretty well lately. I communicate imperfectly and end up annoying people." Make up your mind. Do I take your words seriously, or don't I? You are either responsible for you words or you're not. Please choose which it is.
IMO the caliber of your English changes with how you wish to be perceived in a specific thread. That's hardly naive. That's pretty calculating.
Love is not easily offended?
Quote from: Colleen on March 10, 2013, 05:36:46 AM
Love is not easily offended?
Rice cakes can be eaten for breakfast?
To get Nutella for the rice cakes?
Quote from: VineBranch on March 09, 2013, 09:42:32 PM
Quote from: micah7:9 on March 09, 2013, 09:03:36 PM
For me the only spiritual discipline is LOVE....Let It Shine and HE will bring me into His walk, and give me a more filling answer to all my wondering. Yeah my opinion :dsunny:
K!? I think I get that but am having a really hard time seeing love as a discipline. I see UR based on love, but as a natural outpouring of God's love, not as a way of bringing about something. I think UR is a result of love, and God's love is something natural. I was created to love and be loved by God. I can't see it as a discipline. Just my :2c:
Love is NOT discipline, love is a soother of my anger and when love is embraced and given to be understood, much of what I consider not love, is reversed, so that my kindness is moved to the fore front. Love is opposed to hate, now there is a quandary, and how will we decide? Huuuummmmm.
I see UR as just another denomination or should I say a dimension of religion. UR folks don't believe in eternal torment in a place called forever, other than that, any well established religious named commodity would suffice. UR questions nothing but a place called hell, time called ages and ions rather than a forever, other than those very important pieces of evidence, huuummm what am I called? PS the humor is intoxicating to say at least the least.
If love is a discipline and God is Love, then logically God is a discipline?
I don't think so. .. and I don't think hate is the opposite of love for they are both passions. The opposite of love is apathy.
Apathy is what our loving God is accused of by non-believers when they ask why didn't God do this or that(the way they wanted him to) Doesn't he care? or did he just start everything and then let it all go to hell?
If ET were true, I would think, "Poor God. He can't seem to catch a break. Satan seems to be one step ahead of him all the time, doesn't God care that this world is full of sin and hatred? If he doesn't care, then why should I?"
I started a new thread, called All Discipline is Bad at http://tentmaker.org/forum/lounge/all-discipline-is-bad/ (http://tentmaker.org/forum/lounge/all-discipline-is-bad/). And I answered VB and Ded there. I won't be debating discipline here. I hope folks will have the discipline to discuss dislike of discipline in the other thread rather than here where that discussion is off-topic. If too many people want to oppose my efforts to seek to learn and practice righteous discipline here, I'll take the hint and avoid this forum as long as the opposition remains here.
Might as well lock this forum since the topic was discipline and we didn't get off topic.
Lloyd started the topic so I surmise this is his wish.
one who loves, loves discipline
He who loves, doesn't push his own agendae on folk.
Hi Lloyd. It seems you wish no one would talk about NOT doing spiritual discipline? It might if everyone agrees or sees it all the same way, but likely won't work that way. A thread can stay on general topic, i.e., spiritual discipline, but still wander some. Also, it's just almost a given for most topics - someone's either not going to see it exactly the same way, or they may just flat-out disagree. That tends to be OK on TM, as long as it's done appropriately - i.e., according to forum guidelines (no baiting, flaming, personally insulting, etc.). A topic that's totally controlled by someone without any dissent or varying opinions is usually more of a personal blog rather than a discussion forum such as this. That may not meet your wishes, but it's just pretty typically how it works. Blessings.
P.S. Maybe if there aren't too many on-going struggles/back-and-forths, you can mostly keep it in the direction you wish. Time tells. :2c:
Lloyd
I don't know if you are aware or not but there is actually an Emotions Anonymous. I came across their big book about ten years ago. This past summer during some trying times it popped into my mind. I found there is a group that meets a little too far for me at an inconvenient time but if I remember correctly there are online meetings also. Just a thought.
Never heard that one Colleen. Overeaters are for those that overeat, alcoholics is for those that overdrink, but emotions anonymous? Would that be if you had too many emotions, were too passionate, or were just too emotional? I am serious as I never heard of such a thing :Peace2:.
emotionsanonymous.org (http://emotionsanonymous.org) They have mailing lists, and discussion lists. It's kinda interesting. I thought at first is was about maladaptive emotional responses. It uses the twelve step template and the first step is just emotions (not qualified). Their desctiption of themselves is kinda cool.
There is also a Chapstick anonymous. I wonder what that bottom looks like. :Chinscratch:
Wow! In their statement they say" that each day you will do something that you don't want to do"
They must not know me. Let's see, things I don't want to do...
smoke, drink, drugs, overeat, adultery, murder - I really Don't want to do those things and yet it says I must do something
I don't want to do. :dontknow: :Chinscratch:
There is also a Chapstick anonymous.
It's technically called lipbalm anonymous. They have a neat website too. http://www.lipbalmanonymous.com/ (http://www.lipbalmanonymous.com/)
Quote from: ded2daworld on March 11, 2013, 05:19:40 AM
Wow! In their statement they say" that each day you will do something that you don't want to do"
They must not know me. Let's see, things I don't want to do...
smoke, drink, drugs, overeat, adultery, murder - I really Don't want to do those things and yet it says I must do something
I don't want to do. :dontknow: :Chinscratch:
Ain't it the truth. I do something I don't like all the time. I get up every and go to work. Apparently I'm a better person for it. I don't see it myself.
BTW: I think this may be appropriate. I haven't read anything by Zender in a long time. But there it was staring me in the face, his book talking about this very subject. While I don't see eye to eye with Zender on some issues I think he nailed this one.
Zender stated,
Are you walking by perception? No wonder you are miserable.
Think, walk, see, set.
Think I'm freed from sin.
Walk as if I'm alive among the dead.
See yourself as God sees you.
Set your mind on what Christ has done, not on what you are doing.
I see no other way to live today. I must live by faith, because if I look at me...I will become convinced that I'm not justified, accepted, loved or cherished. I must believe that I am these things independent of what I do. My flesh mocks me, humiliates me and tells me that my revelations are wishful thinking. "Look Shawn...look at what you just said, look at what you just did!" If the flesh forces me to look at me, then discipline myself with some more white knuckle will power...I again become a slave to sin. Sin wins...it controls...it makes me miserable and I begin to pull away from God.
This is just my experience...not saying it has to be for anyone else. But, I MUST live a Life of gratitude, thankful for my salvation and justification that I see through eyes of faith. Loving God is where the freedom lies.
I once thought of starting an optmist anonymous group. I didn't feel good about it though.
Quote from: VineBranch on March 11, 2013, 05:21:29 AM
There is also a Chapstick anonymous.
It's technically called lipbalm anonymous. They have a neat website too. http://www.lipbalmanonymous.com/ (http://www.lipbalmanonymous.com/)
Interesting. I make a bit of a funny with that one, but I suppose we each have our own struggles...whether it be with lip balm or chemical addiction.
Quote from: shawn on March 11, 2013, 05:27:32 AM
BTW: I think this may be appropriate. I haven't read anything by Zender in a long time. But there it was staring me in the face, his book talking about this very subject. While I don't see eye to eye with Zender on some issues I think he nailed this one.
Zender stated,
Are you walking by perception? No wonder you are miserable.
Think, walk, see, set.
Think I'm freed from sin.
Walk as if I'm alive among the dead.
See yourself as God sees you.
Set your mind on what Christ has done, not on what you are doing.
I see no other way to live today. I must live by faith, because if I look at me...I will become convinced that I'm not justified, accepted, loved or cherished. I must believe that I am these things independent of what I do. My flesh mocks me, humiliates me and tells me that my revelations are wishful thinking. "Look Shawn...look at what you just said, look at what you just did!" If the flesh forces me to look at me, then discipline myself with some more white knuckle will power...I again become a slave to sin. Sin wins...it controls...it makes me miserable and I begin to pull away from God.
This is just my experience...not saying it has to be for anyone else. But, I MUST live a Life of gratitude, thankful for my salvation and justification that I see through eyes of faith. Loving God is where the freedom lies.
I think you are right on there Shawn. I've found that trying to control yourself to not sin, or control yourself to avoid sin, is still being controlled by sin. I know people who say: 'I do the opposite of what people tell me to do, just so as not to be controlled by them.' They are still controlled by the other folk, just in a different way.
That's absolutely right VB.
Shawn, VB, :thumbsup:
While we are talking about groups, one of these days I'm gonna start "procrastinators anonymous"
Quote from: ded2daworld on March 11, 2013, 06:17:55 AM
Shawn, VB, :thumbsup:
While we are talking about groups, one of these days I'm gonna start "procrastinators anonymous"
LOL. How long do you think it would take before someone actually took the first step?
Quote from: VineBranch on March 11, 2013, 06:36:36 AM
Quote from: ded2daworld on March 11, 2013, 06:17:55 AM
Shawn, VB, :thumbsup:
While we are talking about groups, one of these days I'm gonna start "procrastinators anonymous"
LOL. How long do you think it would take before someone actually took the first step?
Ehh, I'll take the first step later. :rolllol:
Quote from: shawn on March 11, 2013, 06:38:31 AM
Quote from: VineBranch on March 11, 2013, 06:36:36 AM
Quote from: ded2daworld on March 11, 2013, 06:17:55 AM
Shawn, VB, :thumbsup:
While we are talking about groups, one of these days I'm gonna start "procrastinators anonymous"
LOL. How long do you think it would take before someone actually took the first step?
Ehh, I'll take the first step later. :rolllol:
I'ld take the first step but I need to wash my hair. You understand..
The main trouble would be getting ANYONE (including the leader) to show up for a meeting. If anyone came, it sure wouldn't be on time!
"OK, we got a late start, but in a little while we'll be passing out some literature and soon we'll get the meeting going. We need someone to talk tonight cuz the person that volunteered last week for this week didn't show. If you were here last week you remember we just sat around waiting for someone else to speak. On each of your chairs, I have put a metal circle you can pin to your clothing. It says , "TUIT"
This is the first step here at procrastinators anonymous. None of you can ever again say that you will do something, "When you get a round TUIT" You have gotten your round TUIT and must stop using that excuse to be true to yourself. :laughing7:
Quote from: ded2daworld on March 11, 2013, 06:48:53 AM
The main trouble would be getting ANYONE (including the leader) to show up for a meeting. If anyone came, it sure wouldn't be on time!
"OK, we got a late start, but in a little while we'll be passing out some literature and soon we'll get the meeting going. We need someone to talk tonight cuz the person that volunteered last week for this week didn't show. If you were here last week you remember we just sat around waiting for someone else to speak. On each of your chairs, I have put a metal circle you can pin to your clothing. It says , "TUIT"
This is the first step here at procrastinators anonymous. None of you can ever again say that you will do something, "When you get a round TUIT" You have gotten your round TUIT and must stop using that excuse to be true to yourself. :laughing7:
I'ld wear my tuit but it clashes with my ensemble. So, maybe tomorrow I'll wear it.
lipbalm is one of the most addicting things there is. It removes the oils from your lips naturally so you need to put it on regularly. I know this because we had a couple over for dinner, and he was sneaking putting on his chapstick. My wife caught him and said did you just sneak your chapstick. He then told me about the addictiveness of it. It was all funny. And I'm sure the effects of lipbalm overuse are probably not close to alcohol or drugs, but everyones got their own hangups. He was embarrassed by it, or self conscious enough to try and hide it.
It sounds almost like OCD.
As a "hooked" lip balmer would say, "Ah... lip balm. The cause of, and the cure for, all our troubles" :laughing7:
Yikes - I have three different tubes of lip balm on my bedside stand, so maybe I should call it Gilead.
C'mon Laz - you know there is no balm in Gilead. :laughing7:
Yesterday I started a new thread for opposition to discipline and I answered VB's last complaints there, but then I found that Ded had locked this thread. He had said he thought I wanted it locked, which I had not, so I figured I should delete the new thread, since the new thread seemed to be the reason for him thinking I wanted this one locked. And I left a message saying I'd like this thread unlocked. Luckily I see that it was. But then I had deleted my answer to VB, so I guess I need to rewrite that.
VB complained about me pretending not to be able to speak English well for manipulative purposes, if I understood him. But I never said I don't speak English well. I said I often don't communicate well (in any language, and all I know is English and a little German).
I also explained that, when he initially mentioned that he had had problems with overdoing discipline himself, which is what he was trying to warn people not to do to make that same mistake, and when I then referred to his overdone discipline as "mindless discipline", I didn't mean he or anyone else who does discipline unrighteously or unwisely is stupid or inferior or whatever, as I had shared earlier about some of my own experience with overdoing such discipline. I suppose calling it rote discipline might be a more agreeable term. I also said it seems true though that virtually all humans are naive, but if anyone denies being naive, I don't have a problem with that, though I feel of average naiveness myself, as I think my statements on this forum show. If I weren't naive, I don't think I'd have experienced so much opposition.
Now I remember another complaint was that I supposedly came to this forum to flog my book, though I'm not certain flog was the word, and I don't understand that term in that context. But I mentioned that I was just answering someone's question and I only mentioned my (co-written) book initially because I thought some of the members might enjoy reading it, since it's free online. I didn't come here to do any such thing. I came here because I contacted Gary Am-something asking how I might collaborate with anyone on promoting Christian Universalism and he recommended this forum. So far, though, I haven't found anyone here who seems interested in collaboration much, although I think I've personally benefited from communicating on this thread.
It's been frustrating dealing with so much opposition and resistance to almost everything I try to share on this forum, but I did quote the AA 12 & 12 here lately to the effect that any time we are disturbed, no matter what the cause, there is something wrong with us, which I figure means something wrong with our thinking or attitude or the like. So I'm not trying to blame anyone for my feelings of frustration, when I mention such frustrations, I mean other than blaming myself for wrong thinking or wrong attitude. That doesn't mean others are not at fault, but I think it's up to each person to find and correct one's own flaws. And something I learned in 12 Step groups (mostly back in the 80s) is that by sharing with willing others some of our flaws and our progress with those flaws, we can learn from others' experience and help others learn from us.
And that seems to be mainly what Christianity is about. It's about following good examples, the best example being God the Father, which apparently was too abstract for people to understand how to follow well, so God gave us the Son of God as an example whom we can follow more clearly, and the Bible seems to say that rather clearly in 2 places, John and Peter, but also fairly clearly in many other places such as in many uses of the word cross and other terms, e.g. as in "Take up your cross and follow me." So the Apostles and disciples followed Christ's example and his teachings and the Bible recorded some of that so that their students and later generations could follow the Apostles' examples. And that's where the 12 Step groups and others have learned how to follow their good examples as well.
I'm disappointed that folks don't agree to stop interfering with efforts to try to learn or practice righteous discipline in this thread and I don't relish the prospect of encountering further opposition here, but, since I seem to be gaining something from this experience, it seems that I should stick around, I don't know how long, but as long as the experience is helpful.
God Bless you, Lloyd. I have no idea what all the silly talk about lip balm is above your post but I sense you are a seeker and trying to do what is right in the eyes of the Lord, and I pray you find the fellowship that you are looking for here.
I'm not sure what you mean about discipline but I try to practice my own form of discipline which comes in the form of taking every thought captive and biting my tongue, although I am not always successful at it. I also look at scripture every day of my life. Is this the sort of thing you are talking about? Or something else?
I wrote this post once,but it disappeared. about the term disciple and discipline having
the same 'root' word meaning...and that we are really illegetimate children without
the discipline of our Heavenly Father.Israel was sent off to Babylon for discipline..when they failed
to heed the Lord. He can and does bring hard circumstances on His children to correct them..
or bring about a change of attitude...I have expierenced this..and it is NOT pleasant.
Genuine love..and the Holy spirit in you..with it's fruits...can and does make what seems
impossible..possible with God. the helper assists in carrying our responsibility as sons and
daughters of the Kingdom of Light. But as long as we exist in this corruptible flesh,we will
wrestle with powers and principalities.
Lloyd said...It's been frustrating dealing with so much opposition and resistance to almost everything I try to share on this forum, but I did quote the AA 12 & 12 here lately to the effect that any time we are disturbed, no matter what the cause, there is something wrong with us, which I figure means something wrong with our thinking or attitude or the like. So I'm not trying to blame anyone for my feelings of frustration, when I mention such frustrations, I mean other than blaming myself for wrong thinking or wrong attitude. That doesn't mean others are not at fault, but I think it's up to each person to find and correct one's own flaws. And something I learned in 12 Step groups (mostly back in the 80s) is that by sharing with willing others some of our flaws and our progress with those flaws, we can learn from others' experience and help others learn from us.
--------------------------
Good stuff. And I would see people's opinions less as "opposition" and more other people's opinions which they are able to share on a forum such as this one. There are some things we are not going to agree on, but that's ok...we don't need the approval of others if The Lord is leading us in a certain direction. Follow your heart Lloyd.
Quote from: shawn on March 12, 2013, 02:47:44 AM
--------------------------
Good stuff. And I would see people's opinions less as "opposition" and more other people's opinions which they are able to share on a forum such as this one. There are some things we are not going to agree on, but that's ok...we don't need the approval of others if The Lord is leading us in a certain direction.
Exactly. However, as we are sharing IMO we should be as dispassionate possible when we disagree so that it remains in the tone of a disagreement among scholars, students and friends, more or less- rather than cat-fights between petulant adolescents.
It seems all to often that when folks think they are "right" they think it gives them the right to treat others with sarcasm and disrespect.
I do not believe the Lord gives that right to the right, and when the right assume that right they become wrong :o)
I am firmly opposed to that attitude
on either side and both sides of any dispute, because our attitude towards one another as believers, or as believers toward seekers- should be one of love and forbearance even in the midst of intense ideological disagreement.
Does anyone care to hear some sound doctrine? Here goes.........
The Lord's bond-servant must not be quarrelsome, but be kind to all, able to teach, patient when wronged, with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth, and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, having been held captive by him to do his will.
(2Ti 2:24-26)
This verse CLEARLY STATES that even when "right", and opposed by those who are opposing themselves(unteachable spirits) we are TO REMAIN KIND, BE PATIENT and GENTLY correct them. When we can't do that we are proving that WE are the unteachable one- and our "right" has become (letter) wrong(spirit).
Yes, you can hold the truth in a wrong spirit and display it in such a fashion that it brings not the fragrant aroma of Christ but rather that same old nasty bitter smell of the carnal man.
Does a fountain send out from the same opening both fresh and bitter water? Can a fig tree, my brethren, produce olives, or a vine produce figs? Nor can salt water produce fresh.
Who among you is wise and understanding? Let him show it by his good behavior his deeds
in the gentleness of wisdom. But if you have bitter jealousy and selfish ambition in your heart, do not be arrogant and so lie against the truth. This wisdom is not that which comes down from above, but is earthly, natural, demonic. For where
jealousy and selfish ambition exist, there is disorder and every evil thing. But
the wisdom from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, reasonable, full of mercy and good fruits, unwavering, without hypocrisy. And the seed whose fruit is righteousness is sown in peace by those who make peace. (Jas 3:11-18)
This doctrine is a foundation doctrine that is settled forever in heaven ABOVE the lesser doctrines we so often dispute about, and when we ignore it, we only show that our knowledge is nested in an immature spirit, an unrenewed mind, a carnal soul.
"Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest. "
Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and YOU WILL FIND REST FOR YOUR SOULS. "For My yoke is easy and My burden is light."
(Mat 11:28-30)
Peace to all who live by this reign.
Thank you, Molly.
QuoteMolly added:
I'm not sure what you mean about discipline but I try to practice my own form of discipline which comes in the form of taking every thought captive and biting my tongue, although I am not always successful at it. I also look at scripture every day of my life. Is this the sort of thing you are talking about? Or something else?
The discipline that I said I wanted to practice when I started this thread is discussing emotions and plans with someone each week. The purpose of discussing emotions is to find and correct errors in my thinking and attitude. It's about the same as what you said. The advantage of focusing on emotions is that unpleasant feelings seem to be communication from God usually warning us of something that's doing us harm. Physical feelings indicate harm being done to the body, and emotional feelings indicate harm being done to the mind by erroneous thinking etc. I take sin to mean error. I guess it's possible that unpleasant emotions are sometimes not due to our own errors, but sensing someone else's pain etc, or maybe remembering something from the past, or whatever. But, generally, I find that I do usually have erroneous thinking when I review my unpleasant emotions. That thinking causes those emotions. So finding the thinking error makes it pretty easy to let go of it, as in the saying of shining light into darkness.
As others warn, it's always possible to get carried away with most any discipline, but that's why it's good to do it with others. And this particular discipline also seems to develop our sensitivity, so that we can soon recognize if we're getting carried away, in case others don't warn us. That is, getting carried away usually leads to unpleasant emotions, like with the prodigal son, I think.
QuoteSheila said: I wrote this post once, but it disappeared. about the term disciple and discipline having the same 'root' word meaning...and that we are really illegetimate children without the discipline of our Heavenly Father.
I'm sorry. I suppose I must've caused it to disappear, if it appeared in the thread I started and then deleted. I was fairly impulsive and thoughtless with deleting that thread.
The need for righteous discipline in order to be true children of God was one of the numerous references to discipline in the Bible that I was able to relate to well.
QuoteEaglesway said: It seems all to often that when folks think they are "right" they think it gives them the right to treat others with sarcasm and disrespect.
When we become more sensitive to our own feelings, we can notice that our own sarcasm and disrespect for others feels unpleasant. So does anger. The reason we don't initially notice that is because there are pleasant feelings with those behaviors that get our attention more than the unpleasant ones. We feel we are on the side of right and justice and that feels good.
And thank you for the sound doctrine. You added: "For My yoke is easy and My burden is light." (Mat 11:28-30) I consider the yoke to be the simple loving discipline of the Bible, which grants us "rebirth" and "eternal life" in this life, not just in the next.
As we grow in Christ, our emotional make up comes further and further under the sway of the divine nature as the Spirit in our inner man overflows at the fountainhead(heart) and encompasses all we are, spirit, soul and body. It is a long and arduous journey for most of us, birthing humility, ever growing honesty before God and men, and a gentleness filled with the strength of love and wisdom- worthy of the Lamb of God. Our Father, the Father of spirits, is faithful to raise us right :o)
The need for righteous discipline in order to be true children of God.
I could not be seduced by this statement .
IMO, Never say never Daj.
Are you proud that you could not be seduced by that statement? :dontknow:
Did you want us to be impressed with your spirituality in that a single statement can't seduce you? :dontknow:
Were you telling the forum that to convince us or yourself? :dontknow:
Quote from: eaglesway on March 13, 2013, 04:18:33 AM
As we grow in Christ, our emotional make up comes further and further under the sway of the divine nature as the Spirit in our inner man overflows at the fountainhead(heart) and encompasses all we are, spirit, soul and body. It is a long and arduous journey for most of us, birthing humility, ever growing honesty before God and men, and a gentleness filled with the strength of love and wisdom- worthy of the Lamb of God. Our Father, the Father of spirits, is faithful to raise us right :o)
:thumbsup: I think a big part of it too, is as our eyes learn to remain upon Him, there becomes a progressing forgetting of self, and of course the progressing transformation and burning away of the dross. I love it that we have basically one 'rule', to love God.. (this is the new covenant! which saves us by filling us with Him - reconciled..)
p.s. - paradox? we do need to 'discipline ourself' to stay focused? I feel this is what His bread and wine discourse was about on the eve of His crucifixion.. our daily bread/Bible and daily (new) wine of the Spirit...(?) not as a gruesome chore :rolllol: but as a joyous communion..
For most of my life I've felt that it's God's will for me to have companions with whom to collaborate, but especially companions nearby with whom to interact directly. I've sought such companions fairly often, but never found any who seemed right for me after a few months or so of knowing them. I do better at collaborating online, although I don't do a lot there either. I mostly do things independently. But the Bible seems to give us the example of living in communities of the faithful and of ministers traveling in pairs to preach to the world. And all of the faithful are called ministers who minister to one another.
I came to this forum hoping to find some folks willing to collaborate. I proposed a few things that didn't get much interest, then in January I started this thread, hoping that some would like to collaborate on spiritual discipline, which might help me find local collaboration. Hopefully, some of you will like to share on that. I had said initially that I'd like to discuss emotions and plans each week. But I've been discussing emotions daily lately, because it seemed helpful for me to do that, but it might become weekly eventually.
Members of each community of the faithful are encouraged in the Bible I think to discuss monthly or so to make plans for the progress of the community. So I wanted to get some practice doing that here too, but it may be a spell before it seems like the right time to start doing that.
For now, it seems that what might help me is hearing other forum members' thoughts on community and collaboration. I guess it would help if I analyzed my past experiences to try to determine what have been my main reasons for ceasing collaboration with people I've met. But I think the main reason is that others have never seemed cooperative or sensible enough. And there's also the fact that I've changed my views a number of times. I was vegan for 20 years and followed a religion that favored that. I think it led to health problems after 20 years, so for that and other reasons I gave up that religion. My views about Jesus changed a little bit, too, but not really very much. I guess my views about the Bible changed most. I used to think the Old Testament was awful nonsense and that there was quite a bit of nonsense in the New Testament too. But then I read some messianic Jewish websites about 15 years ago, that greatly helped me make sense of both Testaments. I'm sure my own spiritual immaturity contributed to my difficulties collaborating with others too and I don't know if I'm mature enough yet, but I have a longing for effective collaboration.
Would anyone like to share experience and thoughts on community and collaboration?
Lloyd, this forum IS community and collaboration?(not sure how you mean that word)
We bounce ideas and thoughts off each other, post our thoughts, and share some of our spiritual journey.
We just don't do it face to face like one is "supposed" to do in a traditional church.
It's possible that your companion relationships started fine, just like many marriages and freindships do.
However, as time goes by. we start to notice differences in attitude and beliefs and realize that there is little in common and
that there are many disagreements over what is held in common. The "normal" response is to change friends, companions, and spouses
searching for "that" one that agrees with us on almost everything - it's what makes us feel comfortable.
Even online, we tend to feel uncomfortable when someone rebuts or disagrees with our post and feel good when others stick up the :thumbsup: or the. :iagree:
Hears a tip, if someone agrees with you, you don't learn anything. Every relationship takes work, give and take, sharing, communication all mixed together with love. This is how we grow. I commend you for wanting to fololow the biblical admonition to "not forsake the gathering of yourselves together"
Since there are very few UR congrgations, this forum is our next best thing. If something is too personal to share with the entire forum, there is always the PM available to keep your messages private. There is a wealth of good information and people are here at just about all levels of spiritual growth. May God bless your efforts for growth in Him. :Peace2:
Quote from: Lloyd on March 13, 2013, 09:08:04 PM
Would anyone like to share experience and thoughts on community and collaboration?
Hi, I likely actually would, but I don't like messenger or email, but prefer forums..
I love the give and take of discussion and exchange of ideas, even though it seems as though few actually hear what I try to say. I've been a sort of part time hermit for much of my faith life and I guess I'm pretty convinced of the things I've learned and have felt the Spirit of God has taught me, but seldom can find people who agree with me, or even bother to try to hear what I'm saying. I guess that's just part of the human experience, and whatever each one of us is 'right' about, I think we will be teaching it in the millenium to come, and also during what I think of as the day of 'judgment' age. I think folks are pretty set in their ways, but I think there is untruth like everywhere and it is untruth which waters down the joyous news and robs it of it POWER. If I could find folks who wanted to search all things (doctrines, ideas) thoroughly, in light of the Word only, and not human speculation, I would be ever so very happy. It's better here than most, but yet to me, UR is not the only (Bible) Truth that needs magnification, unveiling and expounding upon, and any and all, misperception/untruth clouds the message of UR, and also salvation ... I've even turned away from Tentmaker forum before, feeling disappointed in not finding a lot of common ground and collaboration.. but not anymore! I feel a new sense of determination! I think there are many things misunderstood about Truth and God's Plan working out/unfolding, and this results in what I think of trying to metaphor things away. Instead of straightforward, everything is a symbol, this is human speculation, whereas what is really most needed in all the Lord's 'church' and in our message, including UR, is the Word itself.
Quote from: Molly on March 11, 2013, 07:05:51 PM
God Bless you, Lloyd. I have no idea what all the silly talk about lip balm is above your post but I sense you are a seeker and trying to do what is right in the eyes of the Lord, and I pray you find the fellowship that you are looking for here.
I'm not sure what you mean about discipline but I try to practice my own form of discipline which comes in the form of taking every thought captive and biting my tongue, although I am not always successful at it. I also look at scripture every day of my life. Is this the sort of thing you are talking about? Or something else?
silly talk about lip balm. Good golly miss Molly, did you think it was silly?
:sigh: When someone doesn't understand our silly talk we have failed at humor :sigh:
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Quote from: Lloyd on March 13, 2013, 09:08:04 PM
Would anyone like to share experience and thoughts on community and collaboration?
You bet. Now that you have put it in a different light for me, I would love to come with you, Lloyd.I do have a few reservations though, so if I may, I'ld like to simply put them out there, and maybe you could take some of my hesitation away.
You mentioned in your post that: "For most of my life I've felt that it's God's will for me to have companions with whom to collaborate, but especially companions nearby with whom to interact directly. I've sought such companions fairly often, but never found any who seemed right for me after a few months or so of knowing them." The problem I have with this (my problem, not yours), is that I don't so much look for companions, as I make friends. I find that in fora such as these, you can't help but make friends with some folk (you probably make enemies as well, but I don't so much look for them as they just sort of show up). Once they are friends, I can't just walk away from them because they don't seem 'right' somehow. They're friends now, and what ever they are, right or wrong, I hang out with them. If we start to disagree, we are still friends, and so we find a way to hang out and accept each other for who we are ... warts and all.
If you and I become companions, and then we become friends (which in my life is a given), and we disagree about some things, if I become discipline road kill because of that, it would really hurt my feelings. So, before we start, is there a possibility of that happening?
You said: "I guess it would help if I analyzed my past experiences to try to determine what have been my main reasons for ceasing collaboration with people I've met. But I think the main reason is that others have never seemed cooperative or sensible enough." What if I disagree and don't wish to cooperate with something with which I disagree: would I then have become less sensible? Would I be abandoned?
You mentioned that you have changed a lot over the years, are your friends (or companions) allowed the same privilege?
The last thing involves something that I have seen at Tentmaker. Ded2daworld mentioned that if we all agree we don't learn anything. I'ld like to share the following with you.
When I got here, I thought the whole shooting match revolved around free-will. I argued it for decades. It was the
sine qua non of Christianity for me. I got into a knock down drag out free for all with Eaglesway. We came at it from two totally different points of view. I thought about our encounters. I tried to see things from a different perspective, and then I tried to see it from the exact opposite perspective of the one I personally held. I changed. My thinking changed. I mulled it over in the light of my new companion, UR. I don't hold that view anymore. I am still mulling it over: still thinking about it in different contexts. The point is, because Eagle and I disagreed, and I didn't think his disagreeing with me was necessarily wrong, I came to see things differently, and we moved on together. I learned, and it didn't frighten me to do so.
A while ago ReHotMagna and I got into it about the word Gospel. English is my first love, and as such I will defend my mistress until the death (okay, but you gotta allow a fellow a little hyperbole lol). But, he had a point. (Don't get me wrong I think I did too, but so did he). As a result, I changed, I see the validity of his point. I tried to merge the two. I see that there is room for both. The point is, because RHM and I disagreed, and I didn't think his disagreeing with me was necessarily wrong, I came to see things differently, and we moved on together. I learned, and it didn't frighten me to do so.
So, I need to ask you a couple of questions Lloyd. If we disagree, will you abandon me by the side of the road? Or, is there a place in Lloyd's new righteous discipline to say, because we disagreed, and I didn't think his disagreeing with me was necessarily wrong, I came to see things differently and we moved on together?
Good post VB. :thumbsup:
QuoteDed said: Hears a tip, if someone agrees with you, you don't learn anything. Every relationship takes work, give and take, sharing, communication all mixed together with love. This is how we grow. I commend you for wanting to fol[]low the biblical admonition to "not forsake the gathering of yourselves together" Since there are very few UR congr[e]gations, this forum is our next best thing.
That's something I've been learning here lately, thankfully. I mean that disagreement is okay. I learned in childhood to fear disagreeable people (like Dad, because of abuse). I still tend to get a sinking feeling when people disagree with me strongly, especially if it seems irrational or angry. But I think I'm letting go of the deception behind my fear, so I'm escaping from that habitual reaction.
QuoteMarie said: ... it seems as though few actually hear what I try to say. ... I feel a new sense of determination! I think there are many things misunderstood about Truth and God's Plan working out/unfolding, and this results in what I think of [as?] trying to metaphor things away. Instead of straightforward, everything is a symbol, this is human speculation, whereas what is really most needed in all the Lord's 'church' and in our message, including UR, is the Word itself.
Yeah. Unfortunately, a lot of the Bible seems to be metaphor, so it's often hard to determine what the original meaning was for many statements. That's where messianic Jews seem to help quite a bit, i.e. those who are fairly familiar with the meanings of the metaphors. Like Jesus came to fulfill, not destroy, the law is said to mean he came to teach it correctly instead of incorrectly, i.e. incorrectly like the Pharisees et al.
QuoteVB said: If you and I become companions, and then we become friends (which in my life is a given), and we disagree about some things, if I become discipline road kill because of that, it would really hurt my feelings. So, before we start, is there a possibility of that happening? ... You mentioned that you have changed a lot over the years, are your friends (or companions) allowed the same privilege? ... because Eagle and I disagreed, and I didn't think his disagreeing with me was necessarily wrong, I came to see things differently, and we moved on together. I learned, and it didn't frighten me to do so. ... because RHM and I disagreed, and I didn't think his disagreeing with me was necessarily wrong, I came to see things differently, and we moved on together.
By becoming discipline roadkill, do you mean getting killed by my discipline, or someone else's? I've heard that the worst killers are comedians. They try to kill every audience, but only succeed about half the time. I hope the discipline I practice will be righteous and nonfatal to self and others. But I can't predict if I'll succeed. I would not have predicted 20 years ago that I would find a brand of Christianity that I'd accept, or that I'd find meaning in terms like salvation. I hope not to become a prodigal son again, but, if I do, I'll then look forward to returning to the Father. Thanks for potential collaboration, friendship, etc. Quakers took the name, Society of Friends, meaning friends of God and mankind, derived from Biblical passages somewhere or other.
I'm back already. I wrote the following this morning before coming down to use the internet.
Matthew 25 seems important for me. Here are the verses there that most apply to my situation. I'm trying to phrase them in more understandable English. Words changed are referenced in parentheses. I'll share the whole passage first, then I'll focus on the most pertinent verses and add my comments there.
Matthew 25:1-13; & 14-46
[1-13] [Seeking the kingdom of heaven is compared to ten bridesmaids(1)... ]
[14] For the kingdom of heaven is compared to(2) a man traveling into a far country, who called his own servants, and gave(3) to them his talents of silver(4).
[24] Then [on his return] he who had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew that you are a hard man, reaping where you have not sown, and gathering where you have not dispersed(5):
[25] And I was afraid [of losing the talent?], and went and hid your talent in the earth: lo, there you have what is yours.
[26] His lord answered and said unto him, you foolish(6) and slothful servant, you knew that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not dispersed(7):
[27] you ought therefore to have given(8) my money to the exchangers, and then on my return(9) I should have received my own with interest(10).
[28] [He then said to another servant:] Take therefore the talent from him, and give it to him who has ten talents.
[29] For to every one that holds up(11) shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that holds not up(12) shall be taken away even that which he has.
[30] And cast the useless(13) servant into outer darkness: there shall be sorrow and worry(14).
[31] When the Son of man shall enter in his honor(15), and all the righteous ministers(16) with him, then shall he sit on the seat(17) of his honor(15):
[32] And before him shall be gathered all people(18): and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats:
[33] And he shall set the sheep on his receiving side(19), but the goats on the unreceiving side(20).
[34] Then shall the King say unto them on his receiving side(19), Come, you prosperous by(21) my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you since the beginning of the beautiful order(22):
[41] Then shall he say also to them on the unreceiving side(20), Depart from me, you unprosperous(23), into righteous lightning [rapid purification?](24), prepared for the unfaithful(25) and his messengers(26): ...
[45] Then shall he answer [to the unfaithful], saying, Truly(27) I say to you, Inasmuch as you worked(28) not for one of the least of these [in need], you worked(28) not for me.
[46] And these [unfaithful] shall go away into Godly correction(29): but the righteous into Godly life(30).
... (1) {virgins} (2) {as} (3) {delivered} (4) {goods}
... (5) {strawed} (6) {wicked} (7) {strawed} (8) {put} (9) {coming}
... (10) {usury} (11) {has} (12) {has not} (13) {unprofitable} (14) {weeping and gnashing of teeth}
... (15) {come in his glory} (16) {holy angels} (17) {throne} (18) {nations}
... (19) {right hand} (20) {left hand} (21) {blessed of} (22) {from the foundation of the world}
... (23) {cursed} (24) {everlasting fire} (25) {devil} (26) {angels}
... (27) {Verily} (28) {did it} (29) {everlasting punishment} (30) {eternal}
Here is more specifically what applies to me.
[14] For the kingdom of heaven is compared to [making profit on the king's investments]
I feel like the servant who was given a share of the king's investments, but buried them, for fear of failure or loss.
[25] And I was afraid [of losing the talent?], and went and hid your talent in the earth: lo, there you have what is yours.
[27] [The king answered:] You ought therefore to have given(8) my money to the exchangers, and then on my return(9) I should have received my own with interest(10).
I feel that I do not help the needy effectively; that includes the needy among family, friends, acquaintances and strangers.
[45] Then shall he answer [to the unfaithful], saying, Truly(27) I say to you, Inasmuch as you worked(28) not for one of the least of these [in need], you worked(28) not for me.
As I hinted before, I've tried to "make profit on the king's investments" by helping the needy by myself, but there seems to be very little to show for all of my independent efforts. I don't see that I've actually helped anyone significantly. And that seems to tell me that I need companions/community with whom to collaborate (for making profit for the king).
I seem to fear wasting my time on self-inspired naive ideas. I don't really have fear of "judgment" or of suffering as a result of my failures. I just have a standard for myself, which I think is a righteous, Godly, biblical standard and I sense the largely needless suffering of the world's needy and want to do my share to be of help.
Quote from: Lloyd on March 14, 2013, 09:06:45 PM
By becoming discipline roadkill, do you mean getting killed by my discipline, or someone else's?
Neither Lloyd.
What I meant was that, in your post you said that you usually loose your companions after a few months because they weren't who you thought they were. Then you just go on by yourself. So, after a few months of talking, sharing, laughing, getting to know each other and bonding with each other, you just leave because they aren't suitable anymore. What happens to them? What happens to the months of bounding, and sharing? How do they feel about simply being left by the side of the road by themselves because they weren't spiritual enough?
One of the greatest things I have learned from UR thus far is this: it doesn't matter if I get it right the first time. It doesn't matter if I get it wrong. God walks with me (and my companions, and my friends) until and beyond the end. Knowing no one will be lost sometimes makes me get misty eyed. God planned none would be lost, irrespective of how long it takes us to figure it out.
One of the things I have learned from this forum is that the people I meet here, and bond with, and share with, are some of the people with whom I will be spending eternity (or whatever word we wish to use).
Frankly, when I first got here I thought some of the folk here were nothing more than great pains in the patoot. This was at least partially so because I didn't think they were suitable as companions. Between you and me, some of them were just plain weird. But I got to know them. Now that I have come to know them and see them as Christian brothers and sisters, I realize that some of them are just plain weird lol. But they are my community of weirdies. I dare say, some of the people who have read and responded to my posts may think: 'this guy is just plain weird' (they would be wrong lol). None of us seems to have it all figured out. None of us seems to know it all. So, we need to make a choice. Do we let them stand by the side of the road, wondering what they did? Or do we link arms, and face God's future together? Personally, I vote for the latter.
God doesn't give up on me and leave me stranded because I didn't get it the first time (or the first hundred times). God doesn't leave me as road kill because I became unsuitable. Would Lloyd?
Quote from: Lloyd on March 13, 2013, 03:10:41 AM
Thank you, Molly.
QuoteMolly added:
I'm not sure what you mean about discipline but I try to practice my own form of discipline which comes in the form of taking every thought captive and biting my tongue, although I am not always successful at it. I also look at scripture every day of my life. Is this the sort of thing you are talking about? Or something else?
The discipline that I said I wanted to practice when I started this thread is discussing emotions and plans with someone each week. The purpose of discussing emotions is to find and correct errors in my thinking and attitude. It's about the same as what you said. The advantage of focusing on emotions is that unpleasant feelings seem to be communication from God usually warning us of something that's doing us harm. Physical feelings indicate harm being done to the body, and emotional feelings indicate harm being done to the mind by erroneous thinking etc. I take sin to mean error. I guess it's possible that unpleasant emotions are sometimes not due to our own errors, but sensing someone else's pain etc, or maybe remembering something from the past, or whatever. But, generally, I find that I do usually have erroneous thinking when I review my unpleasant emotions. That thinking causes those emotions. So finding the thinking error makes it pretty easy to let go of it, as in the saying of shining light into darkness.
As others warn, it's always possible to get carried away with most any discipline, but that's why it's good to do it with others. And this particular discipline also seems to develop our sensitivity, so that we can soon recognize if we're getting carried away, in case others don't warn us. That is, getting carried away usually leads to unpleasant emotions, like with the prodigal son, I think.
QuoteSheila said: I wrote this post once, but it disappeared. about the term disciple and discipline having the same 'root' word meaning...and that we are really illegetimate children without the discipline of our Heavenly Father.
I'm sorry. I suppose I must've caused it to disappear, if it appeared in the thread I started and then deleted. I was fairly impulsive and thoughtless with deleting that thread.
The need for righteous discipline in order to be true children of God was one of the numerous references to discipline in the Bible that I was able to relate to well.
QuoteEaglesway said: It seems all to often that when folks think they are "right" they think it gives them the right to treat others with sarcasm and disrespect.
When we become more sensitive to our own feelings, we can notice that our own sarcasm and disrespect for others feels unpleasant. So does anger. The reason we don't initially notice that is because there are pleasant feelings with those behaviors that get our attention more than the unpleasant ones. We feel we are on the side of right and justice and that feels good.
And thank you for the sound doctrine. You added: "For My yoke is easy and My burden is light." (Mat 11:28-30) I consider the yoke to be the simple loving discipline of the Bible, which grants us "rebirth" and "eternal life" in this life, not just in the next.
The traditional "Christian Disciplines" are: praying, fasting, and giving, all taught by Jesus. To this we may add: reading scripture.
Concerning our emotions many books have been written. One common place people get stuck is attempting to use the soul (with its functions of thought, will, and emotions) to change the soul. Additionally, assuming our bodies can be changed soulically is seldom successful. Jesus asked which of us, by taking thought, could change our height or hair color. Will, or decision making alone (if we are over-weight, for instance,) seldom works, and poorly, if at all.
Our personality is spirit, soul, and body. The functions of spirit are evidenced by communion, intuition, and conscience. We must recognize and deal with the root of our nature, whether we are spiritual, by regeneration, or still soulical, which could mean we're only primarily soulical due to lack of development of the new man. The Adamic nature, what we are as the result of human parents, must be enslaved to righteousness, due to the weakness of the flesh. (cf., Rm 6
19) Born from above by the Spirit of God we are structured and function different than the Old Man. The New Man's nature, as a source, aligns with God from birth, and is in fact, "The Lord from heaven." (cf., 1 Co 15
45-47) Unlike Adam, The Son works in liberty.
:cheerleader:
CollaborationI'm thankful for potential collaboration here. I want to think out loud now about ideas for how to proceed with that. Without others with whom to share ideas mutually (in the periodic gathering together in God's name), I've not found ways to go forward well with whatever other inspirations I may have had. But I think I have some pretty good half-baked methods for decision making as follows.
The Needy and CrisesSometimes crises are illusions, or deceptions. I guess that means there's still a crisis, but the crisis is not what it seems. Instead, it's a crisis of deception or illusion, so the need then is to seek and find the true nature of the crisis and deal with the real issue, the deception or illusion. There are many manufactured crises in the world today, I believe. And most of the people respond to the deception, thinking it's true, without suspecting deceit.
Biblical Means of CollaborationIn order to truly help those in need I suppose we need to determine what the primary needs are for most of the people. I suppose the primary need is for spiritual understanding, i.e. for understanding the true nature of salvation, and for collaborating in local, spiritual, loosely-organized groups/congregations. Local groups need to be loosely-organized too in the way that bishops/overseers help organize ecclesias/congregations. Does that seem right? What do others of you think about this?
Share the Universalist GospelI think this means that there needs to be people who share the Universalist gospel with people worldwide, which is being done, but it would likely help if a lot more of us would do that. Right? We can do it online as well as doing it partly via traveling like the apostles did. I can be available for either or both of those kinds of work. I'm thinking of maybe doing that locally by myself initially, to start with, but I think I need to find another person to work with, as the apostles did. I'm near St. Louis, but it's possible that I could go elsewhere too, if it seems worthwhile. Do these ideas sound good, or are there better or supplemental ideas to consider?
QuoteVB said: God doesn't give up on me and leave me stranded because I didn't get it the first time (or the first hundred times). God doesn't leave me as road kill because I became unsuitable. Would Lloyd?
If God continues to expose for me the deceptions behind my fears of being enslaved by others, I think I will not abandon anyone in need. What do you think about the above?
RE fear of being enslaved by other's..........
this come to mind..Eccl 7;26 I find more bitter than death the woman who is a snare...
whose heart is a trap and whose hands are chains.
two women...Babylon and Wisdom/Jerusalem Above..............
............now..as one who was trapped and snared by Babylon.......then brought out
to liberty...I certainly relate. The man who pleases God will escape her[Babylon]
...the FREE WOMAN..is a good contrast..to the other.Wisdom 'brightens a man's face..
I like being free...if the son set ye free......... ye shall be free indeed.
wealso have the sword,captivity,famine and pestilence..plagues of Babylon..for sure.
when your'e born from above..of the free woman...ye have 'the promise" that promise
Jesus spoke of ..with which we are sealed...a token of the fullness we are to receive.
the 'helper' will not speak of his own..but of what is Christ's..and lead us into all truth..
because it is the spirit of truth. We proclaim liberty to our brothers..and do not enslave
them..to rules and regulations of this world.or that they be 'our' servants
Jesus said," the time is coming..and is now...when you will no longer worship in Samaria
or Jerusalem...but in spirit and truth" what is this..worship in spirit and truth? speak truth
to one another..do not be owing one another anything but to love one another....
where-ever two or three are gathered in my name..I am there.
Mt 18;19 where-ever two of you on earth agree about anything you ask for,it will be done.
can two walk togather without agreeing?
we do not put under compulsion,like Bablyon who sits on the beast
now..to the starving..every bitter thing is sweet....Babylon give me a 'crust" of truth..then
took me for a slave.....you received freely..give freely....
Whatever your heart[love] compels you to give...He wants you to give
freely.
Quote from: ded2daworld on March 13, 2013, 09:52:34 AM
IMO, Never say never Daj.
Are you proud that you could not be seduced by that statement? :dontknow:
Did you want us to be impressed with your spirituality in that a single statement can't seduce you? :dontknow:
Were you telling the forum that to convince us or yourself? :dontknow:
IMO, Never say never Daj.
Ded I never said never. (I said I could not be)
I did not say I could never be.Are you proud that you could not be seduced by that statement?
The need for righteous discipline in order to be true children of God.[/color]
These people are springs without water, mists driven by a whirlwind. The gloom of darkness has been reserved for them. 18 For by uttering boastful, empty words, they seduce, with fleshly desires and debauchery, people who have barely escaped
from those who live in error. 19 They promise them freedom, but they themselves are slaves of corruption, since people are enslaved to whatever defeats them. 20 For if, having escaped the world's impurity through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in these things and defeated, the last state is worse for them than the first. 21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness than, after knowing it, to turn back from the holy command delivered to them. 22 It has happened to them according to the true proverb: A dog returns to its own vomit,[j] and, "a sow, after washing itself, wallows in the mud."Yes we should like the dog and the hog return to righteous discipline
that worked so well the first time. I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died for nothing.
You foolish Galatians! Who has hypnotized you,[a] before whose eyes Jesus Christ was vividly portrayed
as crucified? 2 I only want to learn this from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law or by hearing with faith?[c] 3 Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now going to be made complete by the flesh?[d]Did you want us to be impressed with your spirituality in that a single statement can't seduce you?
Ded I would like to impress upon you the need for me to be single minded Were you telling the forum that to convince us or yourself?
I was posting for the convenience of the Forum
Thanks for shedding light reformer. :dsunny: You're post really helps.
Quote from: Lloyd on March 15, 2013, 05:54:45 PM
If God continues to expose for me the deceptions behind my fears of being enslaved by others, I think I will not abandon anyone in need. What do you think about the above?
Well, Lloyd, God bless you. You appear to be very ambitious.
You said:
"Biblical Means of CollaborationIn order to truly help those in need I suppose we need to determine what the primary needs are for most of the people. I suppose the primary need is for spiritual understanding, i.e. for understanding the true nature of salvation, and for collaborating in local, spiritual, loosely-organized groups/congregations. Local groups need to be loosely-organized too in the way that bishops/overseers help organize ecclesias/congregations. Does that seem right? What do others of you think about this?"
I think the primary need of the whole world is Jesus Christ. I think at some level when the Holy Spirit talks to people, we get that. I'm not sure if the structure is that important, but it could be, and your organizational chart looks fine. I would focus on Christ though. Some people feel closer to the Lord without a structure, others find the structure comforting. I think I would pray about how God wanted the place to look. I've seen churches which insist that the bureaucracy must look like the first century church i.e. the book of Acts became a sort of flow chart for organizing churches.
Personally, according to some of my friends, I have a coffee ministry. I go for coffee with folk and sit and discuss God. Sometimes we bring Bibles, sometimes not. We always bring God along though, and I think that is what it is all about. You are different. If you think a church structured along certain lines works, then go for it. God loves everybody, He is in all meetings.
Share the Universalist Gospel.This may be irrelevant, or even rude, so I'm sorry if it comes across as such. For me, understanding UR came about because God showed me that His love was greater then anything man could create to undermine it. The Gospel, is the Universalist Gospel. I think I would lean toward sharing Christ, everything else follows from that.
Amen VB. The truth is, IMO, extremely few carried a "bible" around for the first 1600 years or so. I've actually had "ekders" question why I didn't bring my bible to church. One pastor said that we weren't "carrying the word of the Lord with us" if we didn't carry a bible everywhere. I think I'd rather carry the word of the Lord in my head than try to flip pages to find out what it says about whatever comes up.Even being a christian, I shy away from obvious bible carriers. Some, but not all, are rediculous in their "bible thumping", using the Bible to "show" other people that they were a "real" Christian. A committed Christian - or is that a christian that eeded to be committed? :2c: :laughing7:
Amen Ded. I've also met Christians who carry a Bible to church and when they get home put in on a table, to be picked again, next Sunday when they are off to church again. It works for them, and God bless them, but IMO it becomes a prop that way.
I think your remark of carrying the word in your heart says volumes on the whole subject.
When I was younger, I carried Bibles around for the express purpose of giving them away, then I actually started reading it: what a difference that made. :laughing7:
I know the gospel is the UR gospel, but the KJV and many common versions misinterpret the original Bible to make it seem ET or non-UR. That's why I said the need seems to be to share the UR gospel. But then, there are two kinds of non-UR people, i.e. Christian and non-Christian. If you count messianic Jews, they often don't call themselves Christians, but they believe basically the same as we do, that Jesus is our Savior. Anyway, we can't share with those who are unfamiliar with the Bible the same way we can with those who are, i.e. Christians and relatives of Christians. I heard yesterday that even many Christians these days don't know what the Bible says, so I guess they're more in the "non-Christian" category. Of course, many Catholics have little familiarity with the Bible either, except what they hear in Sunday sermons. And those may not provide references.
I think most of you folks here emphasize "faith" in Jesus as salvation, but I think that's somewhat brainwashing by conventional protestant religions. They fail to note that the word faith in the Bible usually comes from the word faithfulness. So there isn't basically a difference between "works" and "faith", which makes the Bible much less self-contradictory.
I prefer to emphasize following Jesus' example. So far I don't think it's necessary to believe Jesus actually existed in order to be willing to follow his example. I think there's plenty of evidence that he did live on Earth as the Bible says, but I think what the Bible means to emphasize is following his example. As I said earlier, it seems it was necessary for God to provide a sinless human example for people to follow, because God the Father being invisible pure spirit was always harder for people to follow easily.
I think non-Christians or anyone not familiar much with the Bible could understand the gospel messages about following Jesus' example much more readily than they could accept "believing" something. However, as long as we're clear that there is no eternal punishment, just correctional "judgment", I guess what any of us say about "belief" wouldn't greatly annoy them. I'm saying all this from the perspective of someone like myself. I did have familiarity with the Bible, but mostly all I saw in it was cruelty and insanity. And it was the messianic Jewish perspective that first helped me see that that was all misinterpretation.
Using Jesus as an example IMO, absurd and at the very best meaningless.
Lloyd said. "I think most of you folks here emphasize "faith" in Jesus as salvation, but I think that's somewhat brainwashing by conventional protestant religions. They fail to note that the word faith in the Bible usually comes from the word faithfulness. So there isn't basically a difference between "works" and "faith", which makes the Bible much less self-contradictory."
WoW! If there isn't much difference how come the just shall live by faith, not the just shall live by works, we are to walk by faith, not walk by works. God counts faith(like with Abraham) as righteousness. God NOWHERE at any time counts works as anything but filthy rags. And how is faithfulness anything like works? They are opposites. One is "saved by grace through faith and NOT of works" The bible is LESS contradictory when you equate one word with its opposite? That is contradictory my friend. Every other religion in the world except christianity teaches some form of works. Christianity says there is nothing you can do of yourself to bring yourself closer to God.
Lloyd said, "So far I don't think it's necessary to believe Jesus actually existed in order to be willing to follow his example." True. Many atheist think Jesus set a good example for us to follow and don't even believe he existed or that he was God in the flesh, but the most famous atheist of our day, Richard Dawkins, has admitted in an interview that there is enough evidence to convince him that Jesus actually existed. If, by "following Christ's example" you mean we are to 1.) Love God and 2.) Love our fellow man you are correct. However, the Bible also makes it clear that without the spirit of the living God living inside of you you will be unable to. Why? Imitation is self.
Love is Others. Imitation is a work the opposite of walking in faith which is spirit.
Lloyd said, "I did have familiarity with the Bible, but mostly all I saw in it was cruelty and insanity." I'm sorry for you Lloyd. It is no wonder that you reject the Bible and prefer to work out your own salvation through discipline. There are plenty of good interpretations out there and I'm curious, what did you see "mostly" as cruelty and insanity?? It's a big collection of books (the Bible) and to say out of the thousands and thousands of verses that it is mostly cruelty and insanity sounds like you were pointed to a few selected verses taken out of context from a poor translation by non-believers that are looking for an excuse to 1.) not believe 2.) Not read the Bible or 3.) Both.
Daj is right about using Jesus as an example. Unless you can walk through a hospital and heal everyone, are prepared to never even think of another person in a sexual way, and perform other miracles, you CAN'T imitate Christ. You must have Jesus living in you for your mind, body and spirit to become conformed to his image. We can't do this on our own or even with other people's help. God alone can do it for us.
The world judges and dismisses God by listening to the voices which say God is cruel and has acted cruelly. For a literalist like me, I believe all the accounts of the Old Testament.
I believe it is true that before the flood, and which prompted God to act, "the thought of every person" except Noah, who walked with God, and his family "was only always evil". Would it be kindness to allow such to go on and on?
I believe the nations of Canaan, the Amorites, the Hittites, etc, really were greatly caught up into human sacrifice, to the point of laying live babies into burning fire in the hands of statues of Molech, or Baal. Would it be kindness to ignore such things and let them go on and on? These rites they called worship, were sexual in nature. Because of that they were extremely popular. Indeed traces of such have been found in all lands.
Then there's how Moses was told "don't let the children of Israel approach the mountain lest I break forth and consume them" - which doesn't mean, I hate them and might not be able to control myself! But means His essence is as a purifying fire, and He didn't want them to draw near and be hurt.
:smile:
Sorry, this is a bit long, but I'm trying to answer all of the main recent points. Marie, we're all free to view the Bible however each of us feels is best, you know.
Quotesheila said: RE fear of being enslaved by others: ... We proclaim liberty to our brothers - and do not enslave them to rules and regulations of this world, or that they be 'our' servants ...
- Jesus said," the time is coming - and is now - when you will no longer worship in Samaria or Jerusalem, but in spirit and truth". what is this worship in spirit and truth? speak truth to one another. do not be owing one another anything but to love one another. where-ever two or three are gathered in my name I am there.
- Mt 18;19 where-ever two of you on earth agree about anything you ask for, it will be done. can two walk togather without agreeing? ... you received freely, give freely.
- Whatever your heart [love] compels you to give He wants you to give freely.
>Si. We need community then.
Quotedajomaco said: (I said I could not be) ... seduced by that statement: ... The need for righteous discipline in order to be true children of God.
- 21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness than, after knowing it, to turn back from the holy command delivered to them. 22 It has happened to them according to the true proverb: A dog returns to its own vomit,[j] and, "a sow, after washing itself, wallows in the mud."
- Yes we should like the dog and the hog return to righteous discipline
that worked so well the first time.
>Righteous discipline is not spiritually unclean. Lack of righteous discipline is unclean; as it's not following the example and teachings of God.
Quote- I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died for nothing.
You foolish Galatians! Who has hypnotized you,[a] before whose eyes Jesus Christ was vividly portrayed as crucified? 2
>I think the question is not how righteousness comes, but how salvation comes. It comes by faith in Jesus' teachings and example and faith means faithfulness, as I discussed regarding Matthew 25, for example.
QuoteI only want to learn this from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law or by hearing with faith? [c] 3 Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now going to be made complete by the flesh?[d]
>I had faith in Jesus' message and his example. The Bible is called the Law and the Word and Jesus is called the Word made flesh which dwelt among us. So Jesus is the Law. His example of love for all is the true Law. I learned much of this from Messianic Jewish websites. The flesh means instinctive urges, selfishness etc. Does it not?
QuoteQuoteLloyd said: If God continues to expose for me the deceptions behind my fears of being enslaved by others, I think I will not abandon anyone in need. What do you think about the above? ... I suppose the primary need is for spiritual understanding ... and for collaborating in local, spiritual, loosely-organized groups/congregations.
VineBranch said: I think the primary need of the whole world is Jesus Christ. I think at some level when the Holy Spirit talks to people, we get that. I'm not sure if the structure is that important, but it could be, and your organizational chart looks fine. I would focus on Christ though. Some people feel closer to the Lord without a structure, others find the structure comforting. I think I would pray about how God wanted the place to look. I've seen churches which insist that the bureaucracy must look like the first century church i.e. the book of Acts
>The Bible seems to be the best example for us to follow, because Christianity was greatly corrupted when Constantine took it over, so I don't think conventional Christianity has very good examples to follow. They followed majority rule, whereas the Bible advises unanimous rule. Before Constantine I think Christianity was pretty faithful to Jesus' and the Apostles' teachings and examples. So the early Christian writers may also have good clues for us. I read that they were universalists.
QuoteI have a coffee ministry. I go for coffee with folk and sit and discuss God. ... You are different. If you think a church structured along certain lines works, then go for it.
... I think I would lean toward sharing Christ, everything else follows from that. (I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. John 15:5)
>To me, sharing Christ means sharing about his and the Apostles' teachings and examples.
QuoteQuoteded2daworld: ... I think I'd rather carry the word of the Lord in my head
VineBranch: I think your remark of carrying the word in your heart says volumes on the whole subject.
>Hebrews 8:10 I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
>That's what I'd call attaining spiritual discipline.
Quotedajomaco said: Using Jesus as an example IMO, absurd and at the very best meaningless.
>Not according to the Bible: John 13:15 For I have given you an example, that ye should do as I have done to you.
>1 Peter 2:21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:
Quoteded2daworld: ... God NOWHERE at any time counts works as anything but filthy rags.
>You're brainwashed into only reading the Bible from certain organized religion perspectives. Faith without works is dead. And that also means faithfulness without works is dead.
Quoteded2daworld: ... If, by "following Christ's example" you mean we are to 1.) Love God and 2.) Love our fellow man you are correct. However, the Bible also makes it clear that without the spirit of the living God living inside of you you will be unable to. Why? Imitation is self. Love is Others. Imitation is a work the opposite of walking in faith which is spirit.
>I don't know if it's all that clear to non-Crhistians that the Bible says that about the spirit of God, but it's obvious that the Bible speaks with much symbolism and "spirit of God" seems to mean the image or likeness of God. Strong's dictionary says the Biblical word for spirit is pneuma, which may mean spirit, or mental disposition, or mind etc. So that seems consistent with what I said about following Jesus' example. In order to truly follow his example, we have to have his mind or menatl disposition. As for imitation or imitate, I don't find those words in the Bible. But the Bible clearly says to follow Jesus' example, as I quoted above. And there are many other passages that state it more symbolically.
Quote- I'm sorry for you Lloyd. It is no wonder that you reject the Bible and prefer to work out your own salvation through discipline.
>You're bearing false witness against me. I only reject misinterpretations of the Bible. I'm not following unrighteous discipline or working out false salvation. I'm trying to follow the teachings and examples of Jesus and the Apostles as they advised.
Quote- There are plenty of good interpretations out there and I'm curious, what did you see "mostly" as cruelty and insanity?? It's a big collection of books (the Bible) and to say out of the thousands and thousands of verses that it is mostly cruelty and insanity sounds like you were pointed to a few selected verses taken out of context from a poor translation by non-believers that are looking for an excuse to 1.) not believe 2.) Not read the Bible or 3.) Both.
>No, it was conventional Christians who interpreted the Bible insanely as predestining most people to eternal torture and claiming that the Old Testament described God correctly, when in reality Jesus said he came to teach it correctly, unlike what the Pharisees and others had done.
Quote- Daj is right about using Jesus as an example. Unless you can walk through a hospital and heal everyone, are prepared to never even think of another person in a sexual way, and perform other miracles, you CAN'T imitate Christ. You must have Jesus living in you for your mind, body and spirit to become conformed to his image. We can't do this on our own or even with other people's help. God alone can do it for us.
>You're quibbling over words that mean the same thing, as if they don't. And if God wants anyone to heal people the way Jesus did, I have faith that it will happen, just as it did with the apostles and I know of at least one person in modern times who did it as well.
>To have Jesus living within us means to have in our minds and hearts his teachings, his example and his love for all. He is our standard that we seek to emulate. Athletes have in their minds examples of feats by others that they seek to attain. Likewise, Jesus is our standard. And God the Father is the standard for Jesus the Son.
I'm afraid I have become a bit confused by your latest post Lloyd (which now I see is your second to lastest post). If I may, I would like to ask some questions about what it contains.
You said: "I heard yesterday that even many Christians these days don't know what the Bible says, so I guess they're more in the "non-Christian" category." Did you mean to infer that one can only be a Christian if one knows what it says in the Bible?
You said: "They fail to note that the word faith in the Bible usually comes from the word faithfulness. So there isn't basically a difference between 'works' and 'faith', which makes the Bible much less self-contradictory." Did you mean to say that 'by works I am saved, and 'by faith I am saved' is saying the same thing?
Just a note to clarify my position
Faith, in the Greek comes from the word
pistis. This word means, credence or moral conviction.
Works, in the Greek comes from the word
ergon. This word means: deed, doing, or labour.
In English they share a base definition, but they are miles apart in connotation.
You also said: "I think there's plenty of evidence that he did live on Earth as the Bible says, but I think what the Bible means to emphasize is following his example." I tried to work this into John 3:16. This is what I came up with ... is this what you meant to say: 'For God so loved the world, that He may or may not have given his only son, that whomsoever follows the example of this perhaps randomly chosen being, the existence of whom can probably be confirmed, will have everlasting life, depending on how well they follow that example ... maybe'?
from Strongs pneuma 4151:
from 4154; a current of air, i.e. breath (blast) or a breeze; by
analogy or figuratively, a spirit, i.e. (human) the rational soul, (by
implication) vital principle, mental disposition, etc., or
(superhuman) an angel, demon, or (divine) God, Christ's spirit, the
Holy Spirit:-ghost, life, spirit(-ual, -ually), mind. Compare 5590.
not that I always agree with Strongs, but Lloyd has some footing at least
The only mind I see that has to do with spirit is the mind of Christ. Psuche, the word translated as soul is the human mind IMO. There is often a confusion as to spirit and soul, and I think Dr. strong carries that confusion.
Quote from: redhotmagma on March 17, 2013, 02:40:21 PM
There is often a confusion as to spirit and soul, and I think Dr. strong carries that confusion.
Yep! and look at "hades" which Strong's translates as the place or realm of the dead.. like Greek and pagan myth.. When Sheol was clearly the grave where there is no thought nor doing.. "The realm of the dead" - still, the grave. :smile: As is "the lower part of the earth where Christ descended" (not a burning pit of horrific torture and sentence/punishment even b4 'trial'... How pleasant for those who when tried, find their debt has been paid!
Quote from: Lloyd on March 14, 2013, 09:06:45 PM
That's something I've been learning here lately, thankfully. I mean that disagreement is okay. I learned in childhood to fear disagreeable people (like Dad, because of abuse). I still tend to get a sinking feeling when people disagree with me strongly, especially if it seems irrational or angry. But I think I'm letting go of the deception behind my fear, so I'm escaping from that habitual reaction.
This is a beautiful statement, worthy of meditation by all, and a key to fulfilling the exhortations of Paul.....
"speaking the truth in love......Ephesiians 4
"The servant of the Lord must not strive but be gentle towards all...... 1 Tim 2
"the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable........James 3
Quote_VineBranch said: I'm afraid I have become a bit confused by your latest post Lloyd (which now I see is your second to lastest post). If I may, I would like to ask some questions about what it contains.
- You said: "I heard yesterday that even many Christians these days don't know what the Bible says, so I guess they're more in the "non-Christian" category." Did you mean to infer that one can only be a Christian if one knows what it says in the Bible?
>No, I meant sharing the gospel will have to be done differently depending on how familiar people already are with the Bible.
Quote_VB: You said: "They fail to note that the word faith in the Bible usually comes from the word faithfulness. So there isn't basically a difference between 'works' and 'faith', which makes the Bible much less self-contradictory." Did you mean to say that 'by works I am saved, and 'by faith I am saved' is saying the same thing?
- Just a note to clarify my position
- Faith, in the Greek comes from the word pistis. This word means, credence or moral conviction.
- Works, in the Greek comes from the word ergon. This word means: deed, doing, or labour.
- In English they share a base definition, but they are miles apart in connotation.
>Faith without works is dead. See Matthew 25 again for example. We need to have moral conviction and then we need to actually follow through on that moral conviction by doing the acts of love that we are "commanded" to do. If we do not follow through with action, then the so-called moral conviction, or faith, is a lie and we are mere pretenders, i.e. hypocrits.
QuoteVB: Lloyd said: "I think there's plenty of evidence that he did live on Earth as the Bible says, but I think what the Bible means to emphasize is following his example."
- I tried to work this into John 3:16. This is what I came up with ... is this what you meant to say: 'For God so loved the world, that He may or may not have given his only son, that whomsoever follows the example of this perhaps randomly chosen being, the existence of whom can probably be confirmed, will have everlasting life, depending on how well they follow that example ... maybe'?
>Is that how foolish I seem to you? As I hinted at before, God appears to have known from the beginning that humanity would need a physical example of His likeness in order to understand well how to follow God's example of Love for all. So He intended from the beginning to provide us an example, which is Jesus Christ (Yahushuah). Since I'm not omniscient, I don't pretend to know much of anything for certain, besides that God is Love etc. I believe God only expects us to believe what makes sense to each of us individually and doesn't mean to frighten anyone into pretending to believe what doesn't make any sense to them.
Quote_ded2daworld said: Pneuma is the ancient Greek word for breath. It has also come to mean Spirit or soul. ... Lloyd said it MAY mean spirit but then he goes on to say mental disposition or mind etc.(as if there are even more definitions). It has only come to mean mental disposition in English usage. It Never means mind. (at least biblically.
>I expect that Strong's is more of an authority on the definition of pneuma than you are and Strong's mentions all of the definitions that I mentioned. I think the Bible definitely advises us to have the mind or mental disposition of Christ, so interpreting pneuma as mind or mental disposition, as Strong's allows, is entirely consistent with the biblical message. I see that redhotmagma has supplied the Strong's definitions, which include what I had said.
Quote- Ded: How come if the translation fits your belief it's OK but if it doesn't, it's translated wrong? That's convenient. Let's see, I guess it's alsmost as important to have the spirit of Christmas inside of us as the Holy spirit since Christmas means the mass of Christ and that is a sharing of his body. Oh, and the wine is a spirit so if we drink a lot of wine we are full of the spirit? IMO, you really fit what is at the bottom of my posts. You think the Bible is inspired in spots and that God tells you which spots. "Why do so many people think that the Bible is only inspired at certain points - and that THEY are inspired to pick out which points?" No matter what others may say or write, only the word of God is the word of God.
>You're using the same tactic as VB, sarcasm, apparently in an effort to show that my views are absurd. What I try to do is understand things in terms that make sense to me. I mentioned before that the Bible never made much sense to me until I read Messianic Jewish explanations of some of the major metaphors in the Bible.
>I believe the reason many Christians feel the need to say they "believe" what Christians are "supposed" to believe is they fear eternal damnation or they fear potential rejection by peers and loved ones. Most Quakers gave up on having a creed and settled for having membership contingent on being able to get along with other members.
>I have no objection to the possibility that the Bible was originally 100% the inspired word of God, but obviously you yourself don't accept conventional interpretations of eternal damnation in the Bible, if you believe in universal reconciliation. So you yourself don't support every word in the Bible as conventionally understood. Marie has provided some of the reasoning for rejecting eternal damnation.
Quote_eaglesway: "speaking the truth in love......Ephesiians 4
"The servant of the Lord must not strive but be gentle towards all...... 1 Tim 2
"the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable........James 3
>Oddly, all (or much) of that seems to mean "God". word = God = Jesus; speaking = word = God = Jesus; truth = Jesus = God = word; love = God etc; Lord = God = servant etc;
Grace vs Works
The original word in the New Testament translated into English as "grace" was "charis". Here's how Strong's dictionary defines it.
Quotecharis, (Greek 5485, Strong's): graciousness (as gratifying) of manner or act; especially the divine influence upon the heart, and its reflection in the life; including gratitude; acceptable, benefit, favour, gift, grace, gracious, joy, liberality, pleasure, thank, thanks, thankworthy.
So, if you like, see if you think the following substitute words for grace (in bold letters) in the first 6 books of the New Testament sound right or not to you. The second definition above seems to be the most basic meaning, i.e. "the divine influence upon the heart, and its reflection in the life", and "reflection in the life" suggests not just "believing" but also "doing". I shorten that definition to either "divine influence" or "divine life" in many of the following passages according to what seems to me to make the most sense. In many cases, several of the definitions seem to make sense.
_Luke 2:40 - And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom: and the
_divine influence_ of God was upon him.
_John 1:14 - And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of
_divine life_ and truth.
_John 1:16-17 - And of his fulness have all we received, and
_divine life_ for
_divine life_.
[17_[/b] For the law was given by Moses, but
_divine life_ and truth came by Jesus Christ.
_Acts 4:33 - And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great
_divine influence_ was upon them all.
_Acts 11:23 - Who, when he came, and had seen the
_divine life_ of God, was glad, and exhorted them all, that with purpose of heart they would cleave unto the Lord.
_Acts 13:43 - Now when the congregation was broken up, many of the Jews and religious proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas: who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the
_pleasure_ of God.
_Acts 14:3 - Long time therefore abode they speaking boldly in the Lord, which gave testimony unto the word of his
_divine influence_, and granted signs and wonders to be done by their hands.
_Acts 14:26 - And thence sailed to Antioch, from whence they had been recommended to the
_favor_ of God for the work which they fulfilled.
_Acts 15:11 - But we believe that through the
_divine life_ of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.
_Acts 15:40 - And Paul chose Silas, and departed, being recommended by the brethren unto the
_favor_ of God.
_Acts 18:27 - And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through
_divine influence_:
_Acts 20:24 - But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the
_divine life_ of God.
_Acts 20:32 - And now, brethren, I commend you to God, and to the word of his
_divine influence_, which is able to build you up, and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified.
_Romans 1:5 - By whom we have received
_divine life_ and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:
_Romans 1:7 - To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints:
_joy_ to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
_Romans 3:24 - Being justified freely by his
_divine life_ through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
_Romans 4:4 - Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of
_pleasure_, but of debt.
_Romans 4:16 - Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by
_pleasure_; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
_Romans 5:2 - By whom also we have access by faith into this
_divine life_ wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
_Romans 5:15 - But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the
_divine life_ of God, and the gift by
_divine influence_, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
_Romans 5:17 - For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of
_divine life_ and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
_Romans 5:20-6:1 - Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded,
_divine influence_ did much more abound:
[21_[/b] That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might
_divine influence_ reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
[6:1_[/b] What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that
_divine influence_ may abound?
_Romans 6:14-15 - For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under
_divine influence_.
[15_[/b] What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under
_divine influence_? God forbid.
_Romans 11:5-6 - Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of
_divine influence_.
[6_[/b] And if by
_divine influence_, then is it no more of works: otherwise
_divine life_ is no more
_divine life_. But if it be of works, then is it no more
_divine influence_: otherwise work is no more work.
_Romans 12:3 - For I say, through the
_divine life_ given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
_Romans 12:6 - Having then gifts differing according to the
_favor_ that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;
_Romans 15:15 - Nevertheless, brethren, I have written the more boldly unto you in some sort, as putting you in mind, because of the
_divine life_ that is given to me of God,
_Romans 16:20 - And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly. The
_divine influence_ of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.
_Romans 16:24 - The
_divine influence_ of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.
I know of at least one person in modern times who did it as well.
Llyod you said you knew some one who walked in the example of Jesus.
Please tell me more about this person.
What was it that distinguished him to you.
Hello brother Lloyd:
I think I may have some of the problem figured here. If you would, could you re-read your posts. Then could you re-read your response to the posts. After you have done that could you maybe reflect on how many times your rebuttal states the opposite of what the original post said. I've noticed that a lot of times when there is a query to your post, your response to the query says you didn't say what they said you said. When I then re-read your original post, a lot of times I find that it had indeed said what they said it said.
Quote from: Lloyd on March 17, 2013, 05:51:59 PM
>Is that how foolish I seem to you?
You equated faith and works!
Quote from: Lloyd on March 17, 2013, 05:51:59 PM
You're using the same tactic as VB, sarcasm, apparently in an effort to show that my views are absurd.
(As much as I would love to say that you don't need our help to do that, I won't, because that wouldn't be polite.)
Again, when you re-read the posts you might find that at first I used irony to prove my points. The last little while however, I have bent over backwards to adopt what you said as having validity. I changed my entire tact from statement to question to show you I was willing to try to understand what you were saying. I now draw your attention to the usage of the past tense in that sentence.
QuoteQuote- Lloyd said: I know of at least one person in modern times who did it as well.
_dajomaco said: Llyod you said you knew some one who walked in the example of Jesus. Please tell me more about this person. What was it that distinguished him to you.
>I didn't know him. I said he healed people like Jesus and the Apostles did. His name was Bruno Groening of Germany. He lived from about 1906 to 1959. He was reported to have healed many people much like the Apostles did. Spiritual influences seem to still carry on similar healing in his memory.
QuoteVineBranch said: ... When I then re-read your original post, a lot of times I find that it had indeed said what they said it said.
>People apparently make wrong assumptions about what I mean. If you don't understand something I said, feel free to mention specifically what it is. I'm annoyed that people seem brainwashed by conventional ET religion and that they assume that ET is the only error in conventional religion. Since annoyance is an unpleasant emotion and my bad emotions generally seem to be warnings from God that there's something wrong with my thinking or attitude etc, I reckon I need to ask God what my error probably is. Okay, I think God is telling me I'm paranoid and I need to let go of fear of being incompatible with others, because most URs et al won't hurt me.
Salvationsoteria, Greek 4991, Strong's: feminine of soter: rescue or safety: deliver, health, salvation, save, saving.
soterion, Greek 4992, Strong's: neuter of soter: defender or defence: salvation.
- It appears that the four books of the gospel use the word salvation only 6 times.
_Luke 1:69 And has raised up a horn of soteria [rescue] for us in the house of his servant David;
_1:77 To give knowledge of soteria [rescue] unto his people by the remission of their sins,
_2:30 For my eyes have seen your soterion [defender or defense],
_3:6 And all flesh [mortals] shall see the soterion [defender or defense] of God.
_19:9 And Jesus said unto him, This day is soteria [rescue] come to this house, forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham.
_John 4:22 You worship you know not what: we know what we worship: for soteria [rescue] is of the Jews.
My Views on Salvation- Salvation means rescue from a life of fear and emotional suffering.
- It leads to "divine life" or a life of joy without fear.
- God often gives people a sample of "divine life".
- But people often fail to follow the discipline needed to retain divine life.
- So, although they know what salvation into divine life feels like, they don't know how to trust God or relinquish erroneous beliefs that divine life requires.
- This is apparently what happened to many of the Jews who became followers of the Apostles for a time, but eventually dropped away.
- Some examples of samples of divine life that God often gives people are:
1. the joy of being with people who are joyous with divine life, as was the case with the Jews who joined Jesus' disciples for a time;
2. the high feeling from being in love with someone physically;
3. the joy of having any kind of fun, whether physical, mental, or emotional; and
4. the high feelings from various addictions.
- The parable of the Prodigal Son is a great example of what salvation is like from the perspective of loved ones of an addict. They are overjoyed when their loved one is saved from a life of misery. The prodigal son was more or less an addict to gambling, wantonness etc. A lot of members of groups like AA and NA know the feeling of salvation from the perspective of the prodigal son himself.
- My own addiction was to carbohydrate foods etc. That came to be my only pleasure (false salvation) in life for a time. It was a miserable life and gave me determination to seek rescue (salvation). By joining a group of others who were being rescued from the same addiction, I felt the joy of what divine life is like. And that took away my addiction for a few months. But then it returned as bad as ever. Then I found someone in the group to help me do the spiritual discipline that was suggested (and that discipline came originally from the Bible) and when I finished with the moral inventory and let go of my "character defects", my addiction ended permanently. However, I think that was because I continued to follow the spiritual discipline ever since then.
- For several years after that I experienced something of the divine life, though it wasn't complete. It wasn't until my spiritual discipline, involving review of emotions for personal errors, uncovered my barrier to God, that the divine life began to be complete. The barrier was my false belief that God has the perfectionistic and dictatorial attributes that Dad had. I happily let that barrier be removed and became close friends of God.
- But it seems that spiritual growth never stops. I continue to have false beliefs that I need to let go of in order to continue in divine life. The most recent major false belief I relinquished was the belief that I need to fear and avoid those who seem to disagree with me irrationally or in unfriendly manners.
- There are also potential pitfalls that could lead me to further false beliefs and temporary loss of divine life. One is the problem of pain and misery in the world. That could lead to the belief that God isn't real or something. But so far I think I understand that the need for pain is to help people care about each other and to help us grow spiritually. I don't think we're supposed to enjoy pain, like masochists do, but we can come to not fear it, I guess. I don't know for certain, because I still do fear pain.
- So it seems that all will ultimately attain divine life, but we're always susceptible to losing it for a time. I think Jesus said his yoke is easy and his burden is light. I take the yoke to mean easy spiritual discipline. Most of us are burdened with false beliefs that produce miserable or unfulfilling lives. By taking Jesus' yoke of spiritual discipline, we let go of the burden of false beliefs, so our burden becomes increasingly lighter.
Lloyd said, ">I didn't know him. I said he healed people like Jesus and the Apostles did. His name was Bruno Groening of Germany. He lived from about 1906 to 1959. He was reported to have healed many people much like the Apostles did. Spiritual influences seem to still carry on similar healing in his memory."
:sigh:Anectodal - to me thgat's as valid as seeing it on the internet or a movie. :sigh: Might as well buy all those "proven" yet only anecdotal messages of health and well being by taking vitamin or berry supplements. :sigh:
Llyod Jesus is the son of God and Is God.
You can't skip over this part and then continue on the way.
Ears can hear what is written.Jesus is Lord.
Strong's is not very good for unfolding the meaning of words in the original language. It is a usage lexicon. It shows how the underlying word has been translated. There are several larger theological dictionaries that cost a bit more: Colin Brown's, Kittel...Spiq, is in one large volume...Thayers is available free on the internet, as is Gesenius's on the OT, which I like a lot, at blueletterbible.org
_____________________________________________
It is true Jesus is our example. Ephesians 51 (in the KJV) tells us to, "Be followers of God, as dear children." The word "followers" in some modern versions is rendered "iimitators."
One of the early things in my walk with the Lord was coming across Jesus saying, "Of mine own self I can do nothing." This means He could not live what we sometimes call, "The Christian Life." Neither can you or I. Jesus went on to say, "It is my Father, He doeth the works." He also explained how this operates: "I only do what I see my Father do." He told us, "I only say what I hear the Father say."
I realized my goal was to see and hear my Father. There's no way around it. I could not come to walk in that anointing Jesus walked in (which is the inheritance He left for us when He died) unless I walked in a living experience of the presence of God. Without the immediacy of seeing and hearing God we can't have what it is all about: the men of God across the centuries, the Holy Bible, Jesus' victory...none of it is rightly apprehended unless we are full of the Holy Spirit.
A belief, even a right belief won't replace seeing, hearing, feeling God. Indoctrination is no substitute for experience. This "baptism in the Holy Spirit" is fought and explained away by many claiming to be Christians; but, if you sincerely want God's will for your life, you need to accept whatever the Spirit would do through you. If need be, you can visit a lively Pentecostal or Charismatic church and let them counsel and pray with you to receive the Holy Ghost. Don't seek to please men. If you ask your Father for an egg He won't give you a stone. Expect and enter into speaking in tongues. Don't be afraid. You need everything God has to give. Ask for His Spirit and spend time in worshiping Jesus. You need to be overwhelmed by His tangible presence.
Ref said, "You need to be overwhelmed by His tangible presence."
Absolutely right.
However, IMO, tongues is not a requirement. It is the least of the gifts and is not given to all that have the Holy Spirit
nor is it a sign of one's spirituality.
Quote from: reFORMer on March 19, 2013, 08:24:05 AM
Strong's is not very good for unfolding the meaning of words in the original language. It is a usage lexicon. It shows how the underlying word has been translated. There are several larger theological dictionaries that cost a bit more: Colin Brown's, Kittel...Spiq, is in one large volume...Thayers is available free on the internet, as is Gesenius's on the OT, which I like a lot, at blueletterbible.org
Awesome! I'm glad you posted that! I have two parallel english and greek new testaments which still aren't that satisfactory.. though the one I got years ago from the wtchtower folks seems the better one.
...how much more we, if Jesus said He can do nothing of Himself!!! Yep, the Holy Ghost Baptism, being FiLLeD with God's Spirit and Presence is the total answer! Acts 2 (fulfilling that Jesus is our "sabbath rest" wherein God emphasized "no working upon the Sabbath". No works as salvation! Even the sermon on the mount revealed how far short "the law" is for pleasing God. This is His commandment, to believe on the One He sent forth. :smile: And Jesus said "my yoke is easy, my burden light"!
Quote from: Lloyd on March 18, 2013, 06:04:35 PM
- There are also potential pitfalls that could lead me to further false beliefs and temporary loss of divine life. One is the problem of pain and misery in the world. That could lead to the belief that God isn't real or something..
- So it seems that all will ultimately attain divine life, but we're always susceptible to losing it for a time. I think Jesus said his yoke is easy and his burden is light. I take the yoke to mean easy spiritual discipline. Most of us are burdened with false beliefs that produce miserable or unfulfilling lives..
Hi, Lloyd! Jesus said we are all His and "no one can take them out of His hand".. I think we can lose our joy, etc, perhaps that's what you meant by "divine life".. but not our salvation/eternal life to come, etc (tho some say if we cease to believe we can, but this of course doesn't fit with UR. Btw, I think and agree all groups have error, including UR, but not about UR! :smile: and yes these hold us all back)
I think many in the world cannot believe in God because of the sufferings of and in the world, but, surely, this could not be avoided unless God made us like robots or an ant farm.. When He endowed thinking ability a whole new world (or tree) of possibilities came to be, for sooner or later, with thinking ability comes the ability to make choices. Yet (imo) God is Life and also Perfection, perhaps you can see the 'problem', once one chooses anything which differs with God, we/they become imPerfect, the opposite of Life, therefor God built the rescue into all things "from the beginning"/"foundation". God being Life lives thru all sufferings which ever occur. All of them! Why would He put Himself through all that?! Because (surely?) He's not creating an ant farm or robots, but His very own family and an un-breakable paradise. Un-breakable because the full knowing of good from evil which is also life from death (and true from untrue) will be deeply engraved upon every heart and mind, because we learn through experience best, and plus there will be that 'day' which must be a veRy long one, of the review and examination (judgment) of all things, all human history, etc. This life as we presently know it is an unavoidable lesson and journey. Unavoidable, that is, if there is to be thinking ability / rational creatures.
The "Seal of God" also called God's pledge.. (thumbprint?) which proves we are His, and will inherit aLL which has been promised, is our heart crying "Abba Father!" or, that is "Father, my Father!" If we believe in His salvation sent forth from Him (Jesus) then we (surely?) have this Seal of the Spirit, and now, the baptism of that Spirit is what is crucial to our walk, and our faith enduring and being strong, not easily washed away by forces of the world, or blown about with every wind of doctrine (from men).. Yes I think all believers every where should pray for this Baptism. And then also I think we should live very much in His Word, without which, we are far too easily prey to wrong ideas/doctrines, sorrow, etc.
"The fruit of the Spirit" of abiding in Jesus and staying close to God and the Word "is love, joy, peace, patience, gentleness, and temperence, upon such there is no law".
Drawing close to God is what transforms us, and through Jesus we can boldly draw close to the throne of grace to receive all the help we need! Remember, the Sermon on the Mount(ain) reveals "the law" isn't good enough for pleasing God.. Jesus is our Sabbath Rest (Hebrews ch 4?) - no work upon sabbath, i.e. in our sabbath rest of resting in Jesus and the righteousness which comes by faith. "Draw near to Him and He will draw near to you"/us.
Faith (for every good thing) comes by hearing (reading) the Word of God.. "Be renewed in our mind by the renewing of the Word" - a virtual flood.. Then our thoughts, and also our words are transformed, for they proceed out of the heart (and words, many say, have creative force, along with our thoughts/expectations). The washing of the Word, submersion into, is what all of us believers most need and continue to need, along with this instruction "be being filled with the Spirit" always. :smile:
And there is no sign, except the cry of the heart "Father, my Father!" All else as requirement, would be works.
Quote from: marie glen on March 19, 2013, 04:34:43 PM
...how much more we, if Jesus said He can do nothing of Himself!!! Yep, the Holy Ghost Baptism, being FiLLeD with God's Spirit and Presence is the total answer! Acts 2 (fulfilling that Jesus is our "sabbath rest" wherein God emphasized "no working upon the Sabbath". No works as salvation! Even the sermon on the mount revealed how far short "the law" is for pleasing God. This is His commandment, to believe on the One He sent forth. :smile: And Jesus said "my yoke is easy, my burden light"!
Thank you, Marie! That really connects the dots for me. :dsunny:
:thanks: :hiya:
Truth recieved. :dsunny:
Thanks again reFormer. I seem to be saying that a lot lately. Or at least thinking it.
Amen reF. Thank you for that. I miss you and hope you're doing well. :HeartThrob:
QuoteMarie said: ... Faith (for every good thing) comes by hearing (reading) the Word of God.
Faith means faithfulness. The word of God is direct inspiration from God. Everyone has access to it at all times just by asking God for it. The word of God came to Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph et al long before the Bible was written.
QuoteAnd there is no sign, except the cry of the heart "Father, my Father!" All else as requirement, would be works.
Sounds like you all still berate all "works", contrary to the word of God. Paul is the only one who spoke against "works", and he also spoke FOR good works (even more), as I showed in another thread. You all seem to be determined to keep leading others astray just as you were led astray by conventional ET religions.
Another thing is that you're all preaching mainly to the choir. I don't like using conventional Christian terminology when discussing God's word with others, because most people, even Christians, seem to find it largely meaningless, cultish, holier than thou etc. I don't mind using the terminology with those who speak the lingo, but I don't think most of the lingo is clear anyway and I favor using words that are fairly clear.
Quote from: ded2daworld on March 19, 2013, 03:17:11 PM
Ref said, "You need to be overwhelmed by His tangible presence."
Absolutely right.
However, IMO, tongues is not a requirement. It is the least of the gifts and is not given to all that have the Holy Spirit
nor is it a sign of one's spirituality.
Let's see...what can say that will degrade God's gifts. How can I make irrelevant the good things God has to give me? How can I keep God from flowing, except in the ways I approve?
A few years ago I went to a series of meetings where a man of God was ministering. I was experiencing things inward and heavenly as well as seeing things affecting people's actions, things that were the working of the Holy Spirit. Within my self I said, "Anything but the jerks. I just don't want to jerk like that." Guess what one of the things was that was given to me and that remains with me still? It wasn't until afterward, when the man had gone on, that I realized how much spiritual gifts were flowing. I had missed much because I looked down on the simplicity of his word.
Thanks for that :cloud9:
Reminds me of how we ask the Lord for His holy Spirit and when he does move in us , its according to our faith on just what we recieve
I love the father whom was asking Jesus to heal his son and said help my unbelief ! That boy needed to be healed and his daddy was hindering , till He asked Jesus , by a humble request , to basically heal him too !
Mat 9:29 Then touched he their eyes, saying, According to your faith be it unto you.
Ref said.
"Let's see...what can say that will degrade God's gifts. How can I make irrelevant the good things God has to give me? How can I keep God from flowing, except in the ways I approve?"
Since he quoted me, I assume that statement was meant for me.
I wasn't doing any of those things. Show me where it says speaking in tongues is a sign of how spiritual a person is, the Bible itself says not all are given the gift of tongues and that tongues are the least of the gifts the Holy Spirit bestows. Nowhere does it say one will speak in tongues when one is overwhelmed by the spirit.
I said what I did because some people feel that they have to speak in tongues to "prove" they have the spirit and/or saved. This is not true.
Some people feel that they are somehow inferior spiritually if they haven't spoken in tongues. This is also not true.
Don't take your personal experience and put it out there as a "requirement" for someone to attain your spirituality or to get as close to God as you.
It seems to me your the one trying to keep God from flowing except in the ways that YOU approve. Saying tongues is not a requirement (as I did) for the spirit in NO WAY says one should not seek the Holy Spirit in greater abundance and working in your life.
Ded are you saying, what is important is the fruit of the Spirit?
Don't forget nuts and fruit go together
I don't recall ever reading about the nuts of the spirit. The fruit of the spirit is what comes out of a person that has the Holy spirit in them.
(GAL)"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, and self-control."
:thumbsup:
Jesus spoke of making the tree good and its fruit good :gimmefive: or make it corrupt , its known by its fruit [produce ] the nut garden , well its all edible , right ?
Sgs 6:11 I went down into the garden of nuts to see the fruits of the valley, [and] to see whether the vine flourished, [and] the pomegranates budded.
and when Jesus saw the fig tree bore no (figs)fruit, he cursed it and said, "Never bear fruit again"
Quote from: ded2daworld on March 21, 2013, 01:55:31 PM
Ref said. (and herein quotes ded to illustrate)
"Let's see...what can I say that will degrade God's gifts.
Say:...tongues is not a requirement. It is the least of the gifts and is not given to all that have the Holy Spirit
nor is it a sign of one's spirituality.
How can I make irrelevant the good things God has to give me?
Say: ...tongues is not a requirement. It is the least of the gifts and is not given to all that have the Holy Spirit nor is it a sign of one's spirituality.
How can I keep God from flowing, except in the ways I approve?" Say:...tongues is not a requirement. It is the least of the gifts and is not given to all that have the Holy Spirit nor is it a sign of one's spirituality.
Since he quoted me, I assume that statement was meant for me.
I wasn't doing any of those things.
Quote from: ded2daworld on March 21, 2013, 01:55:31 PM
Show me where it says speaking in tongues is a sign of how spiritual a person is, the Bible itself says not all are given the gift of tongues and that tongues are the least of the gifts the Holy Spirit bestows.
That Paul considered it certainly sign-ified sign-nificantly is indicated when he stated, "I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all..." (1 Co 15
18) Scripture does say, "Do all speak with tongues?" (12
30) He had just spoken similarly, "Are all prophets?" (v29) Yet God says, "Now I wish that you all spoke in tongues, but even more that you would prophesy..." (14
5 RSV) This "wish" for all to speak in tongues and prophesy, is more accurately God's determined will that he loves to do.
Look how strong this is evidenced by the facts about
thelo SG2309. It is rendered (in the KJV): will/would 159, will/would have 16, desire 13, desirous 3, list 3, to will 2, misc 4
Thayer's Lexicon defines it as:
1) to will, have in mind, intend
a) to be resolved or determined, to purpose
b) to desire, to wish
c) to love
2) to like to do a thing, be fond of doing
d) to take delight in, have pleasure
Nowhere, as far as I know, does the Bible say tongues are the least of the gifts.
Quote from: ded2daworld on March 21, 2013, 01:55:31 PM
Nowhere does it say one will speak in tongues when one is overwhelmed by the spirit.
If you look at a beverage glass you will probably find a rim on it, something like what piping is to sewing. It is also is called the "lip" of the glass. When the glass is filled full to overflowing it pours out over the lip.
The tongue is called the bodies most unruly member by James. When that is given over to being operated by the Holy Spirit, then, as suggested by the example (in James) of the rudder, the whole body comes under the Spirit's dominion.
In the book of Acts, when believers were filled with the Holy Spirit it repeatedly says they spoke in tongues and prophesied, or that bystanders saw some effect that would naturally be explained by tongues and prophecy.
Quote from: ded2daworld on March 21, 2013, 01:55:31 PM
I said what I did because some people feel that they have to speak in tongues to "prove" they have the spirit and/or saved. This is not true.
Perhaps technically true, but why be so quick to put a negative aspect against God's precious gift? It does have a "prove the spirit" kind of operation though, if you exercise it.
Quote from: ded2daworld on March 21, 2013, 01:55:31 PM
Some people feel that they are somehow inferior spiritually if they haven't spoken in tongues. This is also not true.
I don't want to stop short of getting everything God gives. How fully in His image can you become? Hebrews 4
1 seems to warn us of it: "Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left [us] of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it."
Quote from: ded2daworld on March 21, 2013, 01:55:31 PM
Don't take your personal experience and put it out there as a "requirement" for someone to attain your spirituality or to get as close to God as you.
I hope what I have of God is actually out there enough for others to feel enough desire for the real thing to cry out, requiring it of the Lord Who gives liberally and without partiality.
Quote from: ded2daworld on March 21, 2013, 01:55:31 PM
It seems to me your the one trying to keep God from flowing except in the ways that YOU approve. Saying tongues is not a requirement (as I did) for the spirit in NO WAY says one should not seek the Holy Spirit in greater abundance and working in your life.
Tongues are a way God flows. It is very significant to being made in His image. "The Word" He has granted to have life in Himself, Jesus says. It is invaluable in private prayer. We should desire, seek after, welcome and praise those things He has wrought.
I'm not going to get in a long discussion about tongues with you Ref.We interpret scripture differently and I have read much stuff concerning tongues. With most things, there are at least 2 sides to every issue and I'm not going hunting for the research I read on it 40 years ago...and you can't say that I have to speak in tongues to understand what you're talking about because I've done that too. :Peace2:
In some ways I agree with what you said, only it is inappropriate, a stumbling block when encouraging someone else to seek the Holy Spirit. We should open wide the door to God's storehouse. I believe when we refuse anything, including tongues, that God expressly says He wants us to have, we are hindering the fullness of the Spirit. We are digging in our heels so God has to drag us on in, if He wills. The scripture that says He wants us to prophesy even more than to speak in tongues is really radical to me. What would respect for that do to our usual way of meeting? If there is so much opposition to speaking in unknown tongues, how much more will they be against us when we speak in known languages by the Holy Spirit?
Tongues are not necessary for salvation and it doesn't necessarily mean you're more spiritual if you speak in tongues. It's like a friend said to me some years ago, "I don't know what unknown tongue she used in church; but I certainly know the tongue she used at home to slice her husband to shreds."
I thought I was encouraging to seek the"deep things of the spirit.
My point was that it seemed like you were encouraging people to seek after tongues, which is not the same thing
as even some non-christian groups have the phenomena of tongues.
I thought I indicated to seek after the spirit - if tongues come - great. If they don't - praise God and don't beat yourself up over not receiving what he hasn't planned for you. Sorry for my inability to make myself clear. :Peace2:
I started this thread so I could discuss emotions and plans each week. One thing I think I should do is maintain a friendly attitude and focus on productive discussion.
I seem to get my best inspiration in the mornings and this morning the idea came to me to finish plans to carry the gospel to public servants et al. So I then called my brother to discuss that with him and he agreed to work with me on that, as well as to involve his kids.
So now I'm planning to start doing that first in 3 locations: 1. online; 2. in our local town; 3. in a nearby city. Locally, I'm thinking of having weekly meetings for it. Online teleconferences or something might be good too.
I think public servants might need a reminder of Matthew 25:34-40, which says: Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: [35] For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: [36] Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. [37] Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? [38] When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? [39] Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? [40] And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
I'm interested in other good passages for public servants too and in how to plan each type of meeting online and locally.
There are a lot of civil servants, who do good works.
Being paid to help the poor and treat people with dignity,
Is still helping the poor and treating people with dignity.
Quote from: Lloyd on March 22, 2013, 09:22:02 PM
I started this thread so I could discuss emotions and plans each week. One thing I think I should do is maintain a friendly attitude and focus on productive discussion.
I seem to get my best inspiration in the mornings and this morning the idea came to me to finish plans to carry the gospel to public servants et al. So I then called my brother to discuss that with him and he agreed to work with me on that, as well as to involve his kids.
So now I'm planning to start doing that first in 3 locations: 1. online; 2. in our local town; 3. in a nearby city. Locally, I'm thinking of having weekly meetings for it. Online teleconferences or something might be good too.
I think public servants might need a reminder of Matthew 25:34-40, which says: Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: [35] For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: [36] Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. [37] Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? [38] When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? [39] Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? [40] And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
I'm interested in other good passages for public servants too and in how to plan each type of meeting online and locally.
Years ago I joined a ministering to women in jail group.. It became my job to write material and copy for leaving with the women, when our visits were over. I tried to make it attractive, enjoyable and informative. But then I dropped out of organized 'church' (tho I might change my ways when I get a little older and have less family responsibilities and when I am able to quietly stand up for UR without being 'bullied' or anything :smile: )
As of now, all I do is online.. except for family things and a big reunion of family and friends we have annually. It's not preaching or outreach or anything, just Bibles around, stuffed bookshelves, and my painting of Jesus and His sheep which faces the door as they walk in, which my mom painted originally for my grandmother. Some verses on the fridge along with the grandkids latest works of art. Nature and flowers thriving reflecting God's beauty. And some reaLLy good grub and a very good visiting reunion time for all. Very friendly and relaxed atmosphere.. Three generations, at least.
I did years ago used to send out Christmas cards with 5 to 10 scripture verses describing salvation and the Kingdom/restored paradise to come.. and I did reap quite a bit of fruit from that! On both sides of the family and also with friends. One year I sent out about 70 cards! I'm not bragging, it's just that it was such a simple thing to do.. low key..
I also got involved for a short while visiting nursing homes and visiting and praying with the precious patients there.. I used to go to craft stores and buy these very nice felt roses, and some inexpensive, but nice little vases, some were just nice looking bottles from a thrift store or something. We would distribute some of those with a tag or title which said "God is Love" 1 Jn 4:8. No wait! It was a bookmarker with a red rose on it and the verse. And some pictures of Jesus, with verses, that sort of thing. The flowers with vase were sort of a hit with the little elderly ladies.. I always wanted to find something a bit more masculine, instead of the flowers for the men, but never did come up with anything.. A plaque of some sort would've worked! That fishermen for Jesus book, or what's that called, everything you need to know a fisherman knows? Sometimes folks in nursing homes and hospitals need favors.. like a pad of paper.. a letter delivered.. you know.. something to make life a little easier while they are there. Of course in nursing homes just visiting and listening to what folks had to say, about life, about their life.. was a great thing/service.
I always liked useful things.. doing something low key but was useful. Not glory seeking, but helpful. These days, when I'm not being a hermit or hermit wannabe, I smile. I try to be very accepting and receiving. Do you know that most people very much want to be accepted.. for just who they are. Appreciated. And the world is pretty much mostly opposite. So christians can make an impact just being friendly, loving.. People
know when they are liked and when they are not liked, so this is all most important in any outreach.
I've always thought a nice home group or gathering would be nice.. if folks you work with on this can invite people they are acquainted with.. print up a little material, make it attractive and inviting, on what the group or gathering is about.. You know what? People want to know!! People are seeking and are thirsty and hungry for truth.. So, first of all, we have to know the truth.. if we come around with a bunch of gibberish.. Some weird theory we cannot clearly point to in the scripture.. or some high falutin' mumbo jumbo.. forget it! from the get go. People searching want to hear good down to earth truth they can get their teeth into. :hithere: ..and no weird drama.. jes my :2c:
Thank you. Have you shared Matthew 25: 34-40 with others, regarding what we do for the least we do for God? Do you know of similar quotes for public servants & co? I'm sure I'll find some more too.
I guess I really haven't.. But it's a great idea.. why I think I'll go to another forum or two right now and start a discussion on it! :thumbsup:
I love how the Young's Literal Translation says it! ---
Matthew 25:34-40 - Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
34 `Then shall the king say to those on his right hand, Come ye, the blessed of my Father, inherit the reign that hath been prepared for you from the foundation of the world;
35 for I did hunger, and ye gave me to eat; I did thirst, and ye gave me to drink; I was a stranger, and ye received me;
36 naked, and ye put around me; I was infirm, and ye looked after me; in prison I was, and ye came unto me.
37 `Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when did we see thee hungering, and we nourished? or thirsting, and we gave to drink?
38 and when did we see thee a stranger, and we received? or naked, and we put around?
39 and when did we see thee infirm, or in prison, and we came unto thee?
40 `And the king answering, shall say to them, Verily I say to you, Inasmuch as ye did [it] to one of these my brethren -- the least -- to me ye did [it].
[ http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2025:%2034-40&version=KJV;NRSV;CEV;NASB;YLT ]
Marie, I hope you can tell us how the discussion goes on your other forum or forums. I suppose you could provide a link to each one here, if you like.
I now started another thread just to discuss matters related to Matthew 25:34-40, so I hope to have productive discussion of that there and focus on discussing plans and emotions here.
I saw the best picture or painting of the triumphal entry today, it was on a youtube video, the link of which someone had posted.. I had to pause the video and rewind. I tried googling a bit, but the best one I came up with was here - though I didn't read the article! This picture came to mind when I read your post:
http://lifestyle.inquirer.net/95709/palm-sunday-balancing-worship-with-mystery (I don't know what the articles about..)
The article says it's "Manuel Baldemor's Moment's With Christ" painting
blessings..
I think of emotions as often, or almost always..? a smoke screen.. we humans do a lot of reacting, until we are grounded in the Lord and the Word...?
because we humans/mortals, can 'feel' all sorts of things, including that God is not for us.. or we are not saved, or what not.. but our faith "rests" in Him and His Word. No matter, how or what, we 'feel', it's the Word which is true. .."the Word which is close to us, even in our mouths" Paul said. Even were we to be stoned! God is with us and we have inherited (eternal) life by believing in Jesus the One He sent forth. John 17:3 -"And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent." We have-been reconciled to Him through Jesus and the cross. And, as we know, "all things in heaven and earth" will be reconciled to Him.." But all believers (who believe b4 their death) are the "firstfruits at His coming" and 1st resurrection.]
..just some thoughts on "emotions" :smile:
People are different from one another. Their emotional make up is different. The way they respond to situations and to one another are widely diverse. This is how God teaches us love.
We react to "how" people do things. We measure and judge according to our own perspectives and standards.
IMO God is not so concerned with how well we analyze and discern others as He is about how we "react" to their actions.
WHen you squeeze a dry sponge you get dust.
When you squeeze a wet sponge you get water.
What comes out when I get squeezed?
Can I discern and analyze my way out of my reactions? Or is it simply a matter of getting in the water. Absorbing more of God. Moving my core out of the brain realm and into the heart realm so that my soul serves my spirit rather than quenching it.
Trust in the LORD, and do good; so shalt thou dwell in the land, and verily thou shalt be fed. Delight thyself also in the LORD; and he shall give thee the desires of thine heart. Commit thy way unto the LORD; trust also in him; and he shall bring it to pass. And he shall bring forth thy righteousness as the light, and thy judgment as the noonday. Rest in the LORD, and wait patiently for him: fret not thyself because of him who prospereth in his way, because of the man who bringeth wicked devices to pass. Cease from anger, and forsake wrath: fret not thyself in any wise to do evil. For evildoers shall be cut off: but those that wait upon the LORD, they shall inherit the earth. For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be. But the meek shall inherit the earth; and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace.
(Psa 37:3-11)
Just thoughts.
Be still and know that I am God.
Get in the water. Be baptized in the divine nature. Wait, I say, wait thou upon the Lord :o)
Quote from: eaglesway on March 25, 2013, 08:37:52 PM
People are different from one another. Their emotional make up is different. The way they respond to situations and to one another are widely diverse. This is how God teaches us love.
We react to "how" people do things. We measure and judge according to our own perspectives and standards.
IMO God is not so concerned with how well we analyze and discern others as He is about how we "react" to their actions.
WHen you squeeze a dry sponge you get dust.
When you squeeze a wet sponge you get water.
What comes out when I get squeezed?
Can I discern and analyze my way out of my reactions? Or is it simply a matter of getting in the water. Absorbing more of God. Moving my core out of the brain realm and into the heart realm so that my soul serves my spirit rather than quenching it.
Trust in the LORD, and do good; so shalt thou dwell in the land, and verily thou shalt be fed. Delight thyself also in the LORD; and he shall give thee the desires of thine heart. Commit thy way unto the LORD; trust also in him; and he shall bring it to pass. And he shall bring forth thy righteousness as the light, and thy judgment as the noonday. Rest in the LORD, and wait patiently for him: fret not thyself because of him who prospereth in his way, because of the man who bringeth wicked devices to pass. Cease from anger, and forsake wrath: fret not thyself in any wise to do evil. For evildoers shall be cut off: but those that wait upon the LORD, they shall inherit the earth. For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be. But the meek shall inherit the earth; and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace.
(Psa 37:3-11)
Just thoughts.
Be still and know that I am God.
Get in the water. Be baptized in the divine nature. Wait, I say, wait thou upon the Lord :o)
amen bro :HeartThrob:
Quote from: eaglesway on March 25, 2013, 08:37:52 PM
.....Be still and know that I am God.
Get in the water. Be baptized in the divine nature. Wait, I say, wait thou upon the Lord :o)
Amen and ab-so-lutely! That is our number one occupation! :smile: :mthumbsup:
QuoteMarie said: I think of emotions as often, or almost always..? a smoke screen.. we humans do a lot of reacting, until we are grounded in the Lord and the Word...? because we humans/mortals, can 'feel' all sorts of things, including that God is not for us.. or we are not saved, or what not.. but our faith "rests" in Him and His Word.
Saying "I feel God is not for me" doesn't really mention a feeling or emotion. It's a thought. There may or may not be a feeling behind the statement. If there is a feeling, it could be anything from sadness to apathy to terror, or even to joy, if one dislikes the idea of "God".
QuoteNo matter, how or what, we 'feel', it's the Word which is true.
I think that's why Jesus spoke of darkness and light. When we have a bad feeling, we usually assume that the feeling is telling us that someone or something harmed us. But it's really telling us that we are harming ourselves by having accepted a false belief. Others can cause us physical harm, but for the most part only we can harm ourselves emotionally, by accepting false beliefs.
Just as God gives us physical pain to warn us when something is harming our bodies, He gives us emotional pain when our false beliefs are harming our minds. So our bad feelings/emotions are gifts from God to encourage us to let go of our false beliefs.
Quote.."the Word which is close to us, even in our mouths" Paul said. Even were we to be stoned! God is with us and we have inherited (eternal) life by believing in Jesus the One He sent forth.
Believing means doing, not just thinking or liking.
QuoteJohn 17:3 -"And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent."
To know God and Jesus means to follow in their steps.
QuoteWe have-been reconciled to Him through Jesus and the cross. And, as we know, "all things in heaven and earth" will be reconciled to Him.." But all believers (who believe b4 their death) are the "firstfruits at His coming" and 1st resurrection.]
Believers are doers, not just thinkers or talkers. We are reconciled by following his example. Anyone who is afraid to follow his example of Love for all needs to find the false belief underlying the fear and let God remove it.
QuoteEaglesway said: IMO God is not so concerned with how well we analyze and discern others as He is about how we "react" to their actions.
God gives us tools to use to help understand Him and to help determine how to carry out His will. Analysis is one such tool. It's God who provides the logic behind analysis. Selfishness can twist logic to suit itself instead of God, just as it can abuse any other tool. Tools can be used for good or ill. Many ET Christians have an irrational prejudice against and fear of logic, analysis, science etc, thinking that it's a tool of the devil to lead us away from God. But that's nonsense based on fear. It was Christians, such as Cardinal Nicolas of Cusa, who initiated the idea of science and government for the common people back in the 1400s and thereafter and it was based on Biblical principles of Love for all. Before that in the Middle Ages Christians were greatly into symbolic thinking, so they seem to have thought that everything is symbolic, instead of real. This kept them in ignorance and poverty. Science greatly improved conditions for everyone and was surely a gift from God. Science is used for great evil as well, but it's up to humanity to spiritually outgrow evil motives.
Quote from: Lloyd on March 26, 2013, 01:03:27 AM
God gives us tools to use to help understand Him and to help determine how to carry out His will. Analysis is one such tool. It's God who provides the logic behind analysis. Selfishness can twist logic to suit itself instead of God, just as it can abuse any other tool. Tools can be used for good or ill. Many ET Christians have an irrational prejudice against and fear of logic, analysis, science etc, thinking that it's a tool of the devil to lead us away from God. But that's nonsense based on fear. It was Christians, such as Cardinal Nicolas of Cusa, who initiated the idea of science and government for the common people back in the 1400s and thereafter and it was based on Biblical principles of Love for all. Before that in the Middle Ages Christians were greatly into symbolic thinking, so they seem to have thought that everything is symbolic, instead of real. This kept them in ignorance and poverty. Science greatly improved conditions for everyone and was surely a gift from God. Science is used for great evil as well, but it's up to humanity to spiritually outgrow evil motives.
I have limited knowledge about much of history; but, my understanding is that it was not symbolic thinking that held men in the west in darkness for so long a time. Early on, as the Eclessia was being replaced with an institutional bureaucracy intent on copying the authority structure of the Roman Empire, the doctrinal changes were several. One source was Constantine's creation of a Christian priesthood paid for by the Empire as well as creating temples for meetings. These were like other pagan religions, but new to Christians. Having just come through the worst period of persecution in the end of the AD 200's, the Diocletian Persecution, when all copies of Scripture that could be found were destroyed and all leaders that could be found were slaughtered, those who got the jobs as priests were men trained in Greco-Roman Rhetoric. These men also were indoctrinated in Platonic thought. Of special importance was his two realms, the ideal was the more permanent, where a circle could be perfect, and then the real, where circles were not perfect, and could come and go. Had they been Stoics who had a proto-scientific method, testing with observation, humanity may have walked on the moon as early as 500 AD. The prevailing Aristotelian philosophy led to a period I think was called "Classicism," that referred, for instance, to the writings of the Greek physician Galen somewhat as we refer to the Bible. This was a long period in which there were few books and few scholars. Slowly, drawings of actual but forbidden human dissections corrected Galen, revealing he had used the anatomy of pigs for much of his drawings. Then came rediscoveries of Greek manuscripts. I'm leaving out a lot, but the discovery of steam power was really the take-off point for modern science, at least for scientists' version of the story. There was much peace in the period carnal men have labeled The Dark Ages, however.
I googled to find the name of the author of the little booklet I mention at the end below and found this that I authored and posted in city-data in 2008. It blessed me so much that, along with the quote from Kircher, I put it here (I'm JamesMRohde.)
_____________________________________________
Sacrificial love, not only of your enemies, but love even as Christ has loved us is what fulfills God's purpose of reproducing His image and likeness in us. Most think it's so hard to do it's just best to not think about it or it only applies to certain special very religious people. Actually it is what is required of all of us. God's goodness and lovingkindness even to the unthankful and antagonistic is the example He holds up to us as He commands us, "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." (Mat 5:48) No need to strap on the guilt generating machine. God is love and you're not God. The manifesting presence of the Holy Spirit is what produces this Divine quality in our lives.
But in the process of bringing it about there are some "dealings" along the way. Judgment, which is "to set things right," that God executes upon us to separate us out from the transient Adam nature into His own Divine life, growth that leaves childish things behind, and rejection from those to whom we've done good. We are not to treat people the way we think they are or we end up condemning the innocent. However we treat people is the way we are. We are to love sincerely without respect of persons to be like our Father in the heavens. Many try to convince you they are behaving a certain way toward you because of how you are. It is so common to hear, "You made me mad." That statement reveals a very immature and self-deceived soul. We are not here for a life of self realization or self gratification. Forget that and trust the faithful Creator to fulfill you. The issue is not how good of a friend we can get for ourself; but, how good of a friend we can be to those who have few to bless them, like widows and the fatherless, those disabled, aged or needy. If we faithfully do our duty to love those God puts in our way I bear witness in my own life to the truth we will be blessed beyond measure. It's ignorance of what transpires in the invisible realms that would go another way.
I've been greatly helped over the years by a statement I memorized from a little pamphlet from Moody Press called "The Way of Love" by Robert Kircher, a single man who raised I think it was 40 orphans. He said, "If I have a glass of water here and a glass of milk there and upset them both, what comes out of them? Why, water out of the water glass and milk out of the milk glass; so, if somebody upsets you, don't blame them for what comes out. It's only what's in you that can come out. It's your fault for having it in you in the first place."
Read more: http://www.city-data.com/forum/christianity/370357-divine-connections-scriptures-praying-holy-spirit.html#ixzz3qD1NBb00
Lloyd wrote: "a bad feeling.. is telling us that someone or something harmed us. But it's really telling us that we are harming ourselves by having accepted a false belief.."
:mthumbsup: amen!
reFORMer wrote: "love even as Christ has loved us is what fulfills God's purpose of reproducing His image and likeness in us... " ..and, "The manifesting presence of the Holy Spirit is what produces this Divine quality in our lives."
:mthumbsup: amen! "His yoke is easy, His burden light.." but it's a "narrow way"!
reFORMer wrote: ..."However we treat people is the way we are" And the illustration of the water and milk by Robert Kircher, a single man who raised I think it was 40 orphans(! :mthumbsup: :mthumbsup:) was excellent and right on!
....and I loved the history lesson! (summary) :smile:
Saying "What comes out of us is what was in us, not in someone else" might be easier to understand for most people, than saying "Any time we are disturbed, no matter what the cause, there is something wrong with us". If we keep experimenting with our phrasing, maybe God will show us the wording that will be most readily understood.
Looks like I may have hired someone to help me do local charity. I wasn't planning to hire anyone for that, but they were in need, so it seemed that making a trade is better than just providing a free handout, although that would be okay too.
My main bad feeling now is worry about getting into too much responsibility. That seems to stem from Dad having put too much responsibility on me in childhood and adolescence. I felt like a slave under him and I've had a habit of fleeing from too much responsibility ever since then, so that I've not used very well the talents God gave me to use for making "profits" for Him, as per Matt. 25. I'm a bit embarrassed about that and have a guilt feeling, which I accept as appropriate as a reminder of what God would advise me to do. Anyway, I've been kind of enslaved to the fear of responsibility, which is little better than enslavement under Dad. So I thank God for releasing me from this fear so that I can be much more responsible henceforth and thus "profitable" for Him.