Genesis - In our image

[Nathan]

So Craig,
When Adam saw that he was naked . . .even though before eating the fruit he was naked then and not ashamed . . .after the tree he is still naked and now, also ashamed . . . help me out here, because I "think" you are saying the problem is not the diciphering between right and wrong, but it's our reaction to that knowledge of what is right or wrong . . .so . . .in Adam's case, his reaction was to clothe himself. . . not because he wanted to obey, but because he was ashamed and guilty of his nakedness.

From what I gather from you, you're saying that I judge what is right and what is wrong, I then choose what is right by the obedience of the Spirit.  My confusion is when Adam clothed himself, but apparently it didn't cut it because God removed Adam's work and then reclothed Adam himself.

How do you see this to fit?

[Pleroo]

We do good because it is the good thing to do, and should we fail, He is faithful to forgive us. However, If we continue to live in their carnal nature, whether doing good or evil, we shall suffer the consequences for the deeds we do, whether good or evil.

I can definitely see what you're saying and I see that what you've described is how it looks outwardly when we are living by the Spirit ... that it is we, ourselves, doing good. Yet it is not I, but Christ in me doing what is good.  This is what I meant by putting on Christ's divine nature and this is why I see much good in what Nathan is saying, if I'm not misunderstanding him:  It is ALL about what Christ is doing in and through me, not what I myself do.

That is the simplicity of the gospel to me.

[Pleroo]

That is exactly what he was doing.

Thank you.  That's a very interesting perspective.

[Craig]

Hello Nathan,

I have a two page response to this little quote, but I will first present you with a simple reply.

So Craig,
When Adam saw that he was naked . . .even though before eating the fruit he was naked then and not ashamed . . .after the tree he is still naked and now, also ashamed . . . help me out here, because I "think" you are saying the problem is not the diciphering between right and wrong, but it's our reaction to that knowledge of what is right or wrong . . .so . . .in Adam's case, his reaction was to clothe himself. . . not because he wanted to obey, but because he was ashamed and guilty of his nakedness.

I did not say he was ashamed and guilty of his nakedness. Nor have I communicated this.

From what I gather from you, you're saying that I judge what is right and what is wrong, I then choose what is right by the obedience of the Spirit.  My confusion is when Adam clothed himself, but apparently it didn't cut it because God removed Adam's work and then reclothed Adam himself.

How do you see this to fit?

This is essential to understanding universal reconciliation and universal salvation.

His reaction to cloth himself was because he was naked and needed to hide his wrong doing. Why it doesn't cut it is because only God can fix this.

Even a child, who is ignorant of right or wrong, when they have disobeyed their parent recognize they did wrong even though prior to this they know nothing about it. When a child knows they have done wrong, they instinctively try to hide it because they are ashamed of their wrong doing, even if they do not express it verbally. Although the child did wrong, they not excluded or rejected by their parent. However, this is not recognized until the child confesses they did wrong and are disciplined for it.

Hebrews 12:4-13
In your struggle against sin, you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood. And you have forgotten that word of encouragement that addresses you as sons: "My son, do not make light of the Lord's discipline, and do not lose heart when he rebukes you, because the Lord disciplines those he loves, and he punishes everyone he accepts as a son."

Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as sons. For what son is not disciplined by his father? If you are not disciplined (and everyone undergoes discipline), then you are illegitimate children and not true sons. Moreover, we have all had human fathers who disciplined us and we respected them for it. How much more should we submit to the Father of our spirits and live! Our fathers disciplined us for a little while as they thought best; but God disciplines us for our good, that we may share in his holiness. No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it. Therefore, strengthen your feeble arms and weak knees. "Make level paths for your feet," so that the lame may not be disabled, but rather healed.

To be obedient to the Spirit, is not to obedience the Law of God. These are two different things, that is why none are declared righteous by obedience to the Law of God but by faith. The Law of God can only show us right and wrong. To be obedient to the Spirit of God is to trust by faith, that despite our disobedience to the Law of God, God has mercy over us and forgives us our sins. To be obedient to the Spirit, isn't to say you are free from rebuke, or discipline, or punishment. To be obedient to the Spirit is to know despite rebuke, or discipline, or punishment, you are loved and accepted as Children of God.

I have been a pastor for 8 years and I recognize long ago, prior to the knowledge of Universal Reconciliation, that the Law and the Spirit were and have been incorrectly taught for years. What I see often as a result, is a skewed understanding of the Law and the Spirit by those in ET, and those who came from that environment though rejecting what they were taught in ET, still come out with this skewed understanding of the Law and the Spirit.

[Molly]

8And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, LORD God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.


--Rev 4

[Craig]

We do good because it is the good thing to do, and should we fail, He is faithful to forgive us. However, If we continue to live in their carnal nature, whether doing good or evil, we shall suffer the consequences for the deeds we do, whether good or evil.

I can definitely see what you're saying and I see that what you've described is how it looks outwardly when we are living by the Spirit ... that it is we, ourselves, doing good. Yet it is not I, but Christ in me doing what is good.  This is what I meant by putting on Christ's divine nature and this is why I see much good in what Nathan is saying, if I'm not misunderstanding him:  It is ALL about what Christ is doing in and through me, not what I myself do.

That is the simplicity of the gospel to me.

You have yet to understand what I am saying. What is Christ doing in you which is good? I will tell you again, "should we fail, He is faithful to forgive us." That is what it means to put on Christ's divine nature, this is the good He does for you and us in Him.

It is ALL about what Christ is doing in and through me, not what I myself do.

Is your mind set still is on that your works mean anything to your salvation and to your acceptance? If so, that shows me you have yet to understand what it means to live by the Spirit. People should be beyond this mindset, because this isn't about salvation or acceptance.

2 Corinthians 13:4-8
For indeed He was crucified because of weakness, yet He lives because of the power of God For we also are weak in Him, yet we will live with Him because of the power of God directed toward you. Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you--unless indeed you fail the test? But I trust that you will realize that we ourselves do not fail the test.Now we pray to God that you do no wrong; not that we ourselves may appear approved, but that you may do what is right, even though we may appear unapproved. For we can do nothing against the truth, but only for the truth.

Ephesians 2:10
For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Correct me, if I misunderstood you.

Here is what I gather from Nathan's own words, He rejects the knowledge of good and evil, calling it an invention of man's carnality.

Is that what you believe Pelroo? That there is no good and evil?

[Craig]

8And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, LORD God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.


--Rev 4

RIGHT! Now you are getting it!

[Nathan]

Okay Craig . .first, I never said you stated they were ashamed "I" said they were ashamed, perhaps I should just leave it with they were afraid . . ..  at any rate, there is nothing you've said after that, that I disagree with.  I do believe there are consequences for all of our decisions.  I do believe there is a right and wrong even.  I just don't think it's my business to go to you and try to tell you that you should change what you do because in my eyes you're doing it wrong.

All of these things are things for me to apply to me . .. not for me to apply to others.  What is good to me, doesn't necessarily mean that it's good to you . .same with what is bad to me, doesn't necessarily apply to what is bad to you.

Judge not lest ye . . .we all know the passage.

Okay . .this is how I see Romans 3 fit in with the tree and law . . .law is the knowledge of sin.  That's what happened to Adam, he ate of the tree of knowledge, and immediately his awareness of sin was all he could see.  There's no righteousness in emphasizing the law, or the sin . . "that's" why I believe when we walk in the spirit, we are blind to sin.  I never said one can go and live in sin without reprocussions . . .in fact, if that's the mindset, then one doesn't have the mind of Christ in the first place.

The mind of Christ to me, is not about adhereing to what is good and what is bad.  It's about life.  Seeing the light in people and not the darkness.  The righteousness of God manifests in us, when we are blind to the sin in us and others.

The two trees of the garden, to me, are the two natures within all of us.  Life and law.  Knowledge is law . .sorry if that sounds repetitive, but it's always connected.  It's not that knowledge is bad, of course it's not, the problem in me is when I am led by knowledge and not by life.  It's the order of them.  I don't throw one out . . . if I came across that way, it's not what I meant.  For me, it's order . . .Spirit first, then soul . .then body.

Adam stepped out of that when he ate of the tree of knowledge and we've been out of order ever since . . which is what inviting Christ does . . .his death on the cross enabled us to return to our original order in God . .when we accept Christ, he restores that order in us, when we don't we continue to live our lives by our own reason.  And here, for me, is where Roy's "which Christ is true" concept comes in because there are many who have been born into denominational Christs . .which is what many are now awakening to and they are realizing there's something more than the Christ they were taught to serve.



I just removed the last sentence that I think was [genuinely] unintentionally confrontational.

[Paul Hazelwood]

Could it be that to not judge good and evil is instruction on making a determination for someones heart?

I know I have met people that if you get to know them have hearts that wish to seek God,  but people in the church they go to judge their standing with God based upon that behavior and assess their worth as people with the same demeanor.  I have been judged that way as well by all kinds of people whether in church or not.

I do not believe we have the ability or the right to judge that.

My habitual drug use in the past was not a good thing that I did and I do not advocate that anyone do it.
But that drug use never changed my standing with God nor affected his love for me, nor did it cause a change in what God had planned for me.

All the while all I was trying to do was belong to something greater than me, that was one way I thought it might happen.  To feel like I had worth.  That wrong in my life never changed whether I was saved, could be saved or otherwise affected my salvation one iota.  Did I reap consequenses?  Oh you bet I did; do I regret ever using drugs?   Not really, not because I think I was not wrong but because the power of God has demonstrated I do not have to live in its shadow all my life.

Not sure if this fits in with what is being said,  so I'm not trying to hijack the thread, but this came to mind while I was reading.

[Craig]

If someone thinks judging right and wrong, is making a condemnation or judgment on their heart, I believe they have jumped to conclusions.

1 Corinthians 2:10-15
The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us. This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words. The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. The spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he himself is not subject to any human judgment: "For who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct him?" and we have the mind of Christ.

It is the world that cannot accept right and wrong, it is the world which is politically correct, it is the world that lives subjectively. The problem here is, that someone here believes the knowledge of good and evil is human wisdom, and those judgment according what is good and evil is human judgment. Where they got this idea, I know quite well.

1 Thessalonians 4:7-8
For God did not call us to be impure, but to live a holy life. Therefore, he who rejects this instruction does not reject man but God, who gives you his Holy Spirit.

2 Timothy 2:24-26
And the Lord's servant must not quarrel; instead, he must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful. Those who oppose him he must gently instruct, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth, and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will.

If we indeed have the mind of Christ, then we can judge all things because our judgment is not based on human standards, but by the Spirit. If we indeed have the mind of Christ, then we can instruct in godliness.

There has yet to be someone to have refute to these words with sound doctrine, and because I said sound doctrine they think religion, but that is because they have lost sight of the Truth, and in their hurt, have had their consciences seared.

[Craig]

My habitual drug use in the past was not a good thing that I did and I do not advocate that anyone do it.
But that drug use never changed my standing with God nor affected his love for me, nor did it cause a change in what God had planned for me.

All the while all I was trying to do was belong to something greater than me, that was one way I thought it might happen.  To feel like I had worth.  That wrong in my life never changed whether I was saved, could be saved or otherwise affected my salvation one iota.  Did I reap consequenses?  Oh you bet I did; do I regret ever using drugs?   Not really, not because I think I was not wrong but because the power of God has demonstrated I do not have to live in its shadow all my life.

This is a good example. You expressed exactly what I know to be true.

You knew that doing drugs was wrong and even reaped the consequences of the wrong you did, but you knew something greater. You knew that your wrong never changed your standing with God or affected his love for you, nor did it cause a change in what God had planned for you; nor did that wrong never changed whether you were saved, could be saved or otherwise. This is called living by the Spirit, and that is why you are not ashamed and at the same time understand what is good and what is evil in your life.

[Molly]

This is called living by the Spirit, and that is why you are not ashamed and at the same time understand what is good and what is evil in your life.

Although I think shame at our own actions could cause/result from repentence.

I notice that those who do evil on purpose, who know they are doing evil,  are shameless.  They are even proud of the evil they do, and happy to boast if given a chance.

But, those who can see the error of their ways are remorseful.

Matthew 26:75
And Peter remembered the word of Jesus, which said unto him, Before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice. And he went out, and wept bitterly.

[Paul Hazelwood]

I notice that those who do evil on purpose, who know they are doing evil,  are shameless.  They are even proud of the evil they do, and happy to boast if given a chance.

I have to respond to this simply because I am one who has done evil,  I planned it, and felt good about it,  but that was not the totality of my entire being.  There are people in my life that even while in that state of mind I would have injured myself before carrying out such an act upon them.

Even while doing the above the entirety of my being roared to get the attention of something that could bring peace.  I have also wondered why there are so many people that are not deterred by prison.  It did not deter me, I almost went to prison and there is nothing I can see in my life that prevented it except it was not Gods intention.

In fact, at the time I was willing to go to jail because I thought in my mind that it might cure me of what was wrong with me.   I thought this while still feeling no remorse over what I did.   What appeared on the outside was not the entire scope of who I was or what I ultimatly thought about and wanted. 

I am more thinking outloud here in this post rather than just disagreeing with you.   As recently I think God has been wanting me to focus on this aspect of human behavior because he has put some people in my life that struggle deeply with this.  They are extremely hard people to love because of what they do and things they often say.   But because they practically mirror myself in a very dark time in my life,  I see what they long for in their heart.  I pray that the hope I see in the bible for all mankind is indeed true and manifests itself in their life as well.

[Craig]

I notice that those who do evil on purpose, who know they are doing evil,  are shameless.  They are even proud of the evil they do, and happy to boast if given a chance.

There is a difference:

I have purposely done wrong in my life, and felt no guilt or condemnation. I also know that my circumstances made me very weak in that moment and it was not difficult to make that decision to do what is evil over what is good. The difference is I know God is watching me, and knows my heart. I do repent of my actions, but I did not need shame or guilt to repent, I simply knew that what I did was not right and have not done it any longer. I will slip and fall from time to time, and willfully choose to do evil when I know I should do good. That is why I know the knowledge of good and evil is not out of the carnality of man, it is what made me aware of what was evil in my life and helped me get over the justifications for the evil in my life. I take 100% accountability for the sin I do, even though it is not I who does it but sin that lives within me. We always have a choice between good and evil in our lives that we do, some decisions are easier to make than others.

I do not boast of that evil I do, nor am I happy to boast about it. I know it is wrong. The people who are happy with the evil they do, are the ones who are shameless. Those who boast on their evil given the chance, are men and women of depraved hearts and minds and know not God.

That is the difference.

[Nathan]

Could it be that to not judge good and evil is instruction on making a determination for someones heart?

I know I have met people that if you get to know them have hearts that wish to seek God,  but people in the church they go to judge their standing with God based upon that behavior and assess their worth as people with the same demeanor.  I have been judged that way as well by all kinds of people whether in church or not.

I do not believe we have the ability or the right to judge that.

My habitual drug use in the past was not a good thing that I did and I do not advocate that anyone do it.
But that drug use never changed my standing with God nor affected his love for me, nor did it cause a change in what God had planned for me.

All the while all I was trying to do was belong to something greater than me, that was one way I thought it might happen.  To feel like I had worth.  That wrong in my life never changed whether I was saved, could be saved or otherwise affected my salvation one iota.  Did I reap consequenses?  Oh you bet I did; do I regret ever using drugs?   Not really, not because I think I was not wrong but because the power of God has demonstrated I do not have to live in its shadow all my life.

Not sure if this fits in with what is being said,  so I'm not trying to hijack the thread, but this came to mind while I was reading.

No hijacking at all . . .not to me anyway.  You are definitely saying what I am saying.  I really struggle with the high level of disgust in these conversations that I get coming from others.  I thought we were on these boards to build each other up.  That's not at you Paul.

This is . . .
What you're saying "is" what I'm saying.  And I'd like to take that to the next step. . . Did you feel shame for being hooked on the drugs?  Did you beat yourself up?  Did you try to break the habit without anyone else telling you the Bible says it's wrong?  There is so much focus on the rules in the Bible that the message of life is so overlooked.  Jesus did not come to establish the Bible.  He infact even stated that you can't live on the bread alone . .the bread, the manna . . .the Scriptures.  Life is not in the letter of the Word, it's in the Spirit that inspired the Word.  If Jesus came to establish the Word, he wouldn't have preached in parables, he would have preached what was already written.

For me, to come to you (back to you again Paul) and tell you that you really need to break this habit of drugs in your life because you're being a terrible witness and it's an abomination to God is NOT my responsibility, nor is it any other "man's".  That's the Holy Spirit's job to convict you from within.  And the other piece to that, you are exactly right, it has no affect on your salvation at all anyway.  It's just something that tears up your physical life.  But again, I'm pretty sure, you already knew that when you were going through it, and to have the church come along side you and tell you what you already know is just not beneficial.

I don't need to tell you what is right and what is wrong.  If the Spirit is in you, He will reveal that to you .  . .and also give you the power to choose what's right.  And if you don't, again, it's not my responsibility to keep you in line.  "MY" job, is to love on you regardless of your issues.  To encourage you, to lift you up, to let you know you have a friend.  To "be" Christ to you.

[Pleroo]

We do good because it is the good thing to do, and should we fail, He is faithful to forgive us. However, If we continue to live in their carnal nature, whether doing good or evil, we shall suffer the consequences for the deeds we do, whether good or evil.

I can definitely see what you're saying and I see that what you've described is how it looks outwardly when we are living by the Spirit ... that it is we, ourselves, doing good. Yet it is not I, but Christ in me doing what is good.  This is what I meant by putting on Christ's divine nature and this is why I see much good in what Nathan is saying, if I'm not misunderstanding him:  It is ALL about what Christ is doing in and through me, not what I myself do.

That is the simplicity of the gospel to me.

You have yet to understand what I am saying. What is Christ doing in you which is good? I will tell you again, "should we fail, He is faithful to forgive us." That is what it means to put on Christ's divine nature, this is the good He does for you and us in Him.

It is ALL about what Christ is doing in and through me, not what I myself do.

Is your mind set still is on that your works mean anything to your salvation and to your acceptance? If so, that shows me you have yet to understand what it means to live by the Spirit. People should be beyond this mindset, because this isn't about salvation or acceptance.

Really?  That's what you got out of what I said?  I guess that's a good sign that somehow I'm not communicating well.  That seems to happen to me a lot on this forum and it's why I don't participate much.   :dontknow:

2 Corinthians 13:4-8
For indeed He was crucified because of weakness, yet He lives because of the power of God For we also are weak in Him, yet we will live with Him because of the power of God directed toward you. Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you--unless indeed you fail the test? But I trust that you will realize that we ourselves do not fail the test.Now we pray to God that you do no wrong; not that we ourselves may appear approved, but that you may do what is right, even though we may appear unapproved. For we can do nothing against the truth, but only for the truth.

Ephesians 2:10
For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Correct me, if I misunderstood you.

Honestly, I don't know if I can express what I said any clearer.  Christ works in and through me.  Of course I believe that I have forgiveness through him.  That is the beginning of salvation.  But I believe that salvation also includes sanctification, a process through which Christ is being raised in me.  That was what I was speaking of.  I don't sanctify myself, it is not I being obedient to do what is right or keep from doing what is wrong ... it is Christ in me, the author and finisher of my faith.  That is all I was saying.

Here is what I gather from Nathan's own words, He rejects the knowledge of good and evil, calling it an invention of man's carnality.

Is that what you believe Pelroo? That there is no good and evil?

That isn't what I gathered from his words, so I was never addressing that possibility.  But, no, that isn't what I believe.  :)

[Craig]

Really?  That's what you got out of what I said?  I guess that's a good sign that somehow I'm not communicating well.  That seems to happen to me a lot on this forum and it's why I don't participate much.   :dontknow:

As I said, if I was wrong, please correct me. Thank-you for understanding, it is okay to correct me. Some others on this forum, do not think it is prudent to correct one another because somehow they believe that this is illuminating guilt, shame, and short falls and not a course correction for truth and unity. Only way we are able to have understanding is when we work together in mutual edification towards unity, that means tearing down pretenses and misunderstandings.

Honestly, I don't know if I can express what I said any clearer.  Christ works in and through me.  Of course I believe that I have forgiveness through him.  That is the beginning of salvation.  But I believe that salvation also includes sanctification, a process through which Christ is being raised in me.  That was what I was speaking of.

I have some questions:

Who do you think "Christ raised in me" is?
a) A Spirit of God
b) Jesus, the Christ, who was born, died and rose from the dead
c) God Himself
d) Other.

I don't sanctify myself, it is not I being obedient to do what is right or keep from doing what is wrong ... it is Christ in me, the author and finisher of my faith.  That is all I was saying.

As I said, sanctification is not about being right and wrong. This is why there is miscommunication here.

Is your mind set still is on that your works mean anything to your salvation and to your acceptance?
a) Yes
b) No

I realize what the problem is with the train of thought being expressed.

It appears to me, people are still in need of assurance concerning their salvation, and that is why salvation continues to be brought up within this discussion. They perceive discussions on obedience, knowledge of good and evil, good works, etc, as opposition to the idea of salvation and so continue to reject such understandings and just hold on to their salvation not wishing listen to anything else, just in case they may lose it.

What I am speaking concerning, which Paul H has shown in his example, is something that is beyond salvation. The things which accompany our salvation.

Hebrews 6:1, 7-12
Therefore let us leave the elementary teachings about Christ and go on to maturity....

Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God. But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned.

Even though we speak like this, dear friends, we are confident of better things in your case—things that accompany salvation. God is not unjust; he will not forget your work and the love you have shown him as you have helped his people and continue to help them. We want each of you to show this same diligence to the very end, in order to make your hope sure. We do not want you to become lazy, but to imitate those who through faith and patience inherit what has been promised.

Believe me, if you are sowing thorns, your harvest is worthless, near being cursed and will be thrown into the fire.

What do you think that means?

[Pleroo]

As I said, if I was wrong, please correct me. Thank-you for understanding, it is okay to correct me. Some others on this forum, do not think it is prudent to correct one another because somehow they believe that this is illuminating guilt, shame, and short falls and not a course correction for truth and unity. Only way we are able to have understanding is when we work together in mutual edification towards unity, that means tearing down pretenses and misunderstandings.

I really appreciate that as I'm one of those people who likes to see things resolved and not fester, although I think I care less about unity concerning "facts" and more about unity in the way we treat each other as brothers and sisters.  That's just the way I'm wired  :icon_flower: , for better or worse.

In light of that, may I try to set something right with you? I'm feeling a bit used by you.  It seems to me you have a beef with someone else and you are using your responses to my posts to take jabs at them.  You write things like "Some others think thus and such".  I'd rather make my own judgment calls on what people are thinking based on their words, not on your interepretation of their words.  If I'm wrong, that's okay, I can work through that on my own.   

I enjoy discussing my hope in Christ.  I know I have much to learn and not a lot to offer to the discussion at this point, but being part of discussion is still one of the ways that I learn best.  I have a hard enough time finding the courage to jump in on the discussions in these forums, however.  And, now, when I finally do, the main response I get from you seems not to be for the purpose of including me in the discussion but for the purpose of chastising someone else with whom you haven't yet resolved whatever personal issues you have with them.   Like I said, I don't like seeing that kind of thing fester between people, so having my posts used for that purpose is rather distressing to me.

I hope you'll take this in the spirit it's offered.  I'm not upset with you about this.  I'm just very uncomfortable with it and would like to clear the air about it before I respond to anything else in your post.

[Craig]

I have no beef with anyone Pleroo. My point is in my replies, especially in this discussion concerning the problem of the belief which says a person points out wrong, is carnality; and sharing with people what is right, is carnality. As you can see, I have no problem with you expressing yourself and that we had a misunderstanding or in need of further communication. Even if it was uncomfortable, it leads to unity.

It was Confucius, who said, "Treat one another as they want to be treated". It was God who said, "Love your neighbor as you love yourself." It was Jesus who said, "Love one another as I love you." We don't follow Confucius.

We are not individuals, we are the Body. The Body does as the Head tells it, not what the other parts want it to do. If one part of the body hurts, the whole body hurts. Emotional hurt, is the most easiest to see, but there is deeper hurts which destroy that very hope you believe in.

I live in a world where people make it habit to assume thing but never make a point of clarification. I was listening to the radio today and they were talking about the failures of western society. One of these failures is the ability to express alarm, or warning concerning another person's thoughts or actions. As a result, we now live in a world unimpeded except for extreme cases in which it breaks the Law.

It is uncomfortable, that is how everyone is wired. Adam was uncomfortable when God asked him if he had disobeyed Him. Adam didn't fess up, he blamed his wife, his wife didn't fess up, she blamed the serpent, and yet, all three were held responsible and paid the consequence.

Ironically, this is the point and I am not using you, you are part of this discussion. I understand your hope, I understand what Nathan is saying.

I can sing His praises all day about this hope we both share. If this is what people want, to remain drinking the milk of the gospel, then I will let them drink milk. However, if we are still but just infants, we will be toss to and fro with every wind of doctrine and evil scheming of wicked men. There is more than emotional hurt, there is the correction that needs to take place when the Truth is in dispute.

I will rejoice with you in the Hope that Jesus has saved all mankind, He is the Beginning and the End, He is the author and finisher of our faith. Praise Jesus, to the Glory of the Father!

I know there is far more which involves us because we were created for the sole purpose to do good works. So what happens, when we go against the purpose in which we were created? That is what I am speaking on, that is what I am sharing, that is what I am instructing.

So, is it possible that anyone answers any questions posed to them? Or is that all we want? Just to praise Him for our salvation.

[Pleroo]

I can sing His praises all day about this hope we both share. If this is what people want, to remain drinking the milk of the gospel, then I will let them drink milk. However, if we are still but just infants, we will be toss to and fro with every wind of doctrine and evil scheming of wicked men. There is more than emotional hurt, there is the correction that needs to take place when the Truth is in dispute.

I guess we're on two different pages right now.  I'm not seeing what it is you feel the need to correct.  That's okay.  I'm not the main player here and my heart and brain are being led to concentrate on other things right this moment, anyway.  So perhaps I've unintentionally tread on ground where I didn't belong in the first place.  I'll take leave of the thread and I give my sincere apologies for any confusion or interruption I may have brought to it.

[Craig]

I'm not seeing what it is you feel the need to correct.

The mentality, that we are not part of the solution to many of our own problems because we fail to recognize the knowledge of what is good and what is evil. There is a saying, "Everything happens for a reason." Accepting that the reason being that God intended to be like that. This needs correction, "Everything happens for a reason" because we reap what we sow. We are responsible for our lives, God is responsible for our salvation.

[WhiteWings]

I'm not seeing what it is you feel the need to correct.

The mentality, that we are not part of the solution to many of our own problems because we fail to recognize the knowledge of what is good and what is evil. There is a saying, "Everything happens for a reason." Accepting that the reason being that God intended to be like that. This needs correction, "Everything happens for a reason" because we reap what we sow. We are responsible for our lives, God is responsible for our salvation.

Craig,

Isn't that contradicting your "free will box" drawing?
Something like:
We are partly responsible for our lives, God is almost fully responsible for our salvation.

[Craig]

I do not see where it contradicts the drawing, omission is not contradiction. Within your habitation and boundary, you have a will concerning your life and God is Sovereign over everything. Within the blue box, you are responsible and reap what you sow, where that box boundary ends, is where God had set it's limits.

[WhiteWings]

Perhaps we just draw different conclusions from your drawing.
Say there are a total of 10 billion choices that can be made in life.
God puts you in a box with a selection of only 1% of all possible choices. (my habitation)
By giving me only 1% of all choices the reaping and sowing are greatly controled.
Especially if the 1% is of the positive and caring type. Or the opposite pure greed.
For that reason I came to my conclusion.

But if you set my 1% at, say, 70% then the conclusion is very diffrent.
Of course you never used percentages in your drawing but that's just what I feel after reading your posts on free will....

[Craig]

Perhaps we just draw different conclusions from your drawing.

It isn't about the amount of choices, it is about the human being with the ability to make choices. There may indeed be billions of choices that we can make, but God is with us the entire way. The affect of your choices ends when God has taken you from this life and everything after your life, is completely in God's hands.