Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
This sounds like God plans the whole human race to be in His image.
Genesis 5:3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth:
But this sounds like we are like Adam. So God was wrong in verse 1:26
Or does it simply mean Adam looks like God and we look like Adam so also look like God.
(personally I find it odd comparing a human to God)
Not sure how you think God was wrong in Gen 1:26. lol
But, if you believe God created man, then man was created for a reason.
The Bible gives us many insights into that reason, but I like this one the best.
Ecclesiastes 12:13
Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
But that's no answer to my question.... :dontknow:
Could you better explain your question, then?
If Adam is in the image of God and Seth is in the image of Adam, then Seth is in the image of God.
God is CREATING man after HIS own Image...
The IMAGE, being the ADAM created BOTH male and FEMALE..., that IS ,the union OF THE SOUL( MIND) and the spirit...I call it Coming HOME, meaning Understanding our TRUE I dentity..
ww ,similitudes hold their place within SCRIPTURE, Seth being just ONE .
Brother, such things take time to learn and Digest....WE dont learn these things like plugging numbers into a Calculator.
Blessings
T
I really love calculators..... :sigh:
I never expected to learn it in a few months.
But despite all my weird questions; I do learn from them.
All my life I had a strange way of learning things. Always a struggle. Little or no progress. Then suddenly the light turns on. Everything falls in place and my understanding goes beyound the sum of what I was thaught.
But you are right about the calculator. I'm trying to find a big formula for the Bible.
It's far from complete; but I already have some useful chuncks.
Many ways lead to Rome as we say.
And until I'm there I'll just enjoy the journey. :thumbsup:
Lets hope I don't annoy my fellow travelers to much :laughing7:
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 25, 2008, 01:14:32 AM
I really love calculators..... :sigh:
I never expected to learn it in a few months.
But despite all my weird questions; I do learn from them.
All my life I had a strange way of learning things. Always a struggle. Little or no progress. Then suddenly the light turns on. Everything falls in place and my understanding goes beyound the sum of what I was thaught.
But you are right about the calculator. I'm trying to find a big formula for the Bible.
It's far from complete; but I already have some useful chuncks.
Many ways lead to Rome as we say.
And until I'm there I'll just enjoy the journey. :thumbsup:
Lets hope I don't annoy my fellow travelers to much :laughing7:
Hi T
Hey bud,..you have a great attitude,..hang around a while and digest some...topics keep coming around, for mine we come to Understand a little hear and a Little there..
and for sure ya dont annoy me,...keep digging T... keep digging :icon_flower:
Yar a sad excuse for a Christian moderator Taffy! :laughing7:
Keep digging :thumbdown:
Yeh right to the pit I assume.
Keep climbing! :thumbsup:
:cloud9:
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 24, 2008, 09:30:21 AM
Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
This sounds like God plans the whole human race to be in His image.
Genesis 5:3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth:
But this sounds like we are like Adam. So God was wrong in verse 1:26
Or does it simply mean Adam looks like God and we look like Adam so also look like God.
(personally I find it odd comparing a human to God)
I think the problem with the way you worded the question, is that a person (whom might awnser), is put in the position of defending that God was not wrong.
God is not wrong.
Whatever meanings are left after acknowledging that fact are the ones which we may sort through.
Just my :2c: on the matter. :happygrin:
First of all, Genesis 1:26 wasn't a conversation. It was how God created man 'cause as you review the chapter:
God said....and it was
God said....and it was
God said....and it was
God said Man be in Our Image, Have dominion, etc., etc.
I think it relates back to Mark chapter 4 with what Jesus taught there about the sowing and reaping of Words. Thousands of detailed prophecies in the Old Testament about Jesus, not just so we'd recognize Him when He came, but to build His life in the earth and set it's boundaries so that the things that He could seemingly have no control over were still under control, like the prophecy that none of His bones would be broken.
With God's Word being understood as a seed, in the way that Jesus explained it in Mark 4, then the question is when is harvest time for Genesis 1:26? Depending on countless factors that it would take too long to get into, one by one, that can be anywhere along the way between the moment you've embraced the Lordship of Jesus to the timing of 1Corinthians 15:28 when God's looking at all of mankind completely restored to Himself and the Kingdom being resigned and offered up to the Father. In one sense, we're already in the image of God. In another sense, people all over the planet are spending countless hours everyday talking about how the full potential of a human being has never yet been fully tapped. Why would that be? Something about man is a seed with infinite potential that just needs to be nurtured with the Written Word of God and with the Holy Spirit to get to the highest levels that these mortal human bodies can contain in this present world. And then obviously when mortality is no more, then we'll go even beyond that.
Correction: The human body in it's present mortal state doesn't have to be able to contain the level of spiritual growth. You wouldn't die from growing too big spiritually. Some limitations would just start falling away. There isn't time to get into all of that. There's lots of Church history, books on the lives of Catholic saints, etc., that gets into stories of people being able to serve God and humanity with an ever-decreasing number of physical limitations.
White Wings....
I love your questions..
we have similar minds.
for sure. :laughing7:
peace, bro...
I had a reply cooked up to Mollies 2nd reply.
But I didn't post it because Taffy answered before I could post.
"God wrong" that was a rethorical question. I would never make such a claim.
Altough I already have my answer let me explain what caused my question.
Adam was created without sin. That was like God.
Then then things went wrong with eating from the tree. Men got mortal and full of sin.
Mortality and sin; two attributes unknown to God.
So my question was that; at that point the imgae was 'shattered'
/edit
Sparrow I feel deeply sorry for you! :laughing7:
Actually, my opinion--since I read the Bible literally--is that man became more like God when he ate from the tree of knowledge, which is why God threw him out of the garden and subjected him to death--because who wants an evil eternal kicking around for eternity in paradise? It would no longer be paradise.
This would pre-suppose that God is creating man in his own image rather than the past tense. So, for a while, as part of this process, God took away the tree of life. I see the whole Bible as a process--of creating man in God's own image.
22And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
23Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
24So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.
--Gen 3
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 25, 2008, 08:27:49 AM
Sparrow I feel deeply sorry for you! :laughing7:
:laughing7:
:2c: okay...for what its worth:
I see Taffy's explanation as being true in that God is in the process of "making man" into His image...why else are we being "conformed to the image of Christ" now?
AND I see Molly's explanation as being true also in that what she showed you is PART of that PROCESS. God surely knew in advance that Adam and Eve would partake of the tree that He himself had planted smack dab in the middle of the garden....and then told them : "don't eat!"
I believe that the vessel was marred in the hand of the potter to begin with....and for the express purpose of RE-making it....so this is a PROCESS and was not instantly finished in the garden.
Jeremiah 18:4
4 And when the vessel that he made of the clay was marred in the hand of the potter, he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.
:happygrin:
:2c: okay...now we are up to 4 cents! but I have to make one more comment:
Here is my example for the reason that I believe man was NOT in the image of God to begin with and that it is an ongoing process....
1 John 2:16
For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes and the vain glory of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
You can see that ALL of this was going on with Eve before she ever partook:
Genesis 3:6
And when the woman saw that the tree was good (suitable, pleasant) for food and that it was delightful to look at, and a tree to be desired in order to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate; and she gave some also to her husband, and he ate.
(*Now I know that Adam was not deceived, but he had his faults too prior to eating the fruit because he put himself in agreement with the woman and desired her more than obeying God's commands.)
Joyce :)
Quote from: Taffy on August 25, 2008, 12:43:59 AM
God is CREATING man after HIS own Image...
The IMAGE, being the ADAM created BOTH male and FEMALE..., that IS ,the union OF THE SOUL( MIND) and the spirit...I call it Coming HOME, meaning Understanding our TRUE I dentity..
ww ,similitudes hold their place within SCRIPTURE, Seth being just ONE .
Brother, such things take time to learn and Digest....WE dont learn these things like plugging numbers into a Calculator.
Blessings
T
A few years ago, I realized that the whole book was about Jesus, as I began to see Jesus all over the Old Testament.
John 5:39
Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.But--what if the whole book is about God creating man in his own image--priest, king, prophet, Christ--?
1This is the book of the generations of Adam.--Gen 5
Quote from: joyful1 on August 30, 2008, 01:12:15 PM
:2c: okay...now we are up to 4 cents! but I have to make one more comment:
Here is my example for the reason that I believe man was NOT in the image of God to begin with and that it is an ongoing process....
1 John 2:16
For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes and the vain glory of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
You can see that ALL of this was going on with Eve before she ever partook:
Genesis 3:6
And when the woman saw that the tree was good (suitable, pleasant) for food and that it was delightful to look at, and a tree to be desired in order to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate; and she gave some also to her husband, and he ate.
(*Now I know that Adam was not deceived, but he had his faults too prior to eating the fruit because he put himself in agreement with the woman and desired her more than obeying God's commands.)
Joyce :)
Hi Joyce--
I agree with what you say about Eve. But, the word, 'desired,' (used for Adam), is a loaded word, and I wouldn't use that word for what Adam did. The church likes to teach that Adam is somehow seduced by the woman--he's not--and that the fruit eating incident has something to do with Adam's lust for the woman--it doesn't.
God tells us what Adam did--he listened to the woman--
17And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: --Gen 3
And, yet, we know that Adam, not being deceived, knew he would die. Adam made a decision, but was it the wrong one?
20For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.--Romans 8
Good question, Molly! :icon_queen:
Maybe you are right....it does end with "Come Lord Jesus!"
And when He comes....we WILL be LIKE HIM! The process will have been competed in us....hmmmm?
And we do live by "every word that proceedeth from the mouth of God." ....hmmmm?
Joyce :)
Just a couple thoughts . . . I love this book!
One, I also saw that passage a bit odd where after they ate they then were declared to "be like us". As if up to that point, they were not yet like God.
I also see this whole thing as spirit and soul. God gave our spirit dominion to subdue our earth . .our carnality, our soulishness. But Adam didn't subdue, he submitted to his soul and "that" changed the order of Spirit, soul, and body . . .to Soul, body, spirit. We have no idea what it was really like in the garden because it was a spiritual realm, not a natural one, Adam was predominantly spirit and yes, he had a body, but his body to him was like our spirits are to us now . .and our bodies now, are like his spirit was then ..everything is reversed here now from what it was then.
I'm also of the understanding that Adam didn't fall as much as he jumped. The center-piece of our walk in the Word is always Christ. For me . . it's not about the fall of Adam as much as it is about the redemption of Christ. The interchange between Jesus and Peter are the same picture . . .when Jesus rebuked Peter and called him satan (adversary). Peter couldn't see that Jesus' purpose to go to the cross was to bring resurrection to the dead . .all he could see was the death of the cross and "that" was what he responded to and took it upon himself to defend Jesus . . .at which point . . .he became the adversary to the purpose of the cross.
For me to emphasize the fall of Adam over the redemption of man through Christ is doing the same thing. God created man, the garden and the trees that were in it. He also created the serpent in the tree. God creates balance, it consists of good and evil . .however if we're living in the tree of life and not knowledge, we don't identify the good from the evil, we see it all as God does . .it's all good.
I think one of the attributes to being God's image is that man is made up of opposites. My body needs opposite arms and legs and ears to be a balanced body. It goes inwardly also . . .two main sides to the brain, heart, lungs on and on. When we live in our carnal reasoning, we take it upon ourselves to root the one out . . .so that the one remaining is the "right" one to our standards. We may have successfully rooted out the sin in us, but that sin was there to bring balance to us . .but walking in the natural reasoning, we can't see this.
Bottom line . . .Scripture says Jesus gave himself at the foundation of the world . . .to me, it was done in the spirit realm long before we saw him do it in the natural. It wasn't "if" Adam would step out of the order, it was more of a matter of "when". Adam had the liberty to choose the when . . . But he was already destined to submit to his woman, because it's not about us . . .it's about Christ coming to redeem . .to seek and to save that which is lost. Man wasn't lost, it was man's identity in who he was that got lost. Jesus reestablished that through the death, burial, but most importantly, resurrection because NOW we are seated at the right hand of the Father in heavenly places . . .that can only happen by way of receiving resurrection life.
QuoteNOW we are seated at the right hand of the Father in heavenly places . . .that can only happen by way of receiving resurrection life.
By faith.
Colossians 2:9-12 3:1-2For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form, and you have been given fullness in Christ, who is the head over every power and authority. In him you were also circumcised, in the putting off of the sinful nature, not with a circumcision done by the hands of men but with the circumcision done by Christ,
having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead. Since, then, you have been raised with Christ, set your hearts on things above, where Christ is seated at the right hand of God. Set your minds on things above, not on earthly things. For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God.
Ephesians 2:6-10And
God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. For it is by grace you have been saved,
through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the assurance of things
hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.
Quotehaving been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God,
Is that water baptism? Or some other type like knowldge or God and Jesus?
For me, it's not about getting wet . .it's about dying to the flesh and being raised in the spirit.
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 31, 2008, 05:24:06 AM
Quotehaving been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God,
Is that water baptism? Or some other type like knowldge or God and Jesus?
Good question.
The answer is no. It is a fact, and like all facts that are not yet realized it is trusted by faith. It is like a 18 year old knowing he has a billion dollars in trust when he turns 21, he knows it is there because he has a certificate to prove it.. He knows it is there and can borrow against it, even though he doesn't really have access to it until he is 21. So by faith he lives as if he had a billion dollars, but in reality his billion doesn't become for another 3 more years.
Trusting in the death of Jesus Christ is what water baptism symbolizes but water baptism is not at all necessary to do. It was Jesus's baptism into to death that now saves you.
1 Peter 3:21 This water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God.
His baptism, we trust, is that when He died, He died for all and therefore all have died in Him.
2 Corinthians 5:14 For Christ's love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died.
It is this baptism, which Jesus endured, that also brought reconciliation to the world.
2 Corinthians 5:18-19 All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.
The answer is yes, now trusting in the fact (knowledge) it has already happened, we also trust we too shall be raised.
1 John 3:2 Dear friends, now we are children of God, and
what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when he appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see Him as He is.
So He has given us the Spirit as deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.
2 Corinthians 5:5Now it is God who has made us for this very purpose and has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing
what is to come.
2 Corinthians 1:21-22Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing
what is to come.
What it means to be raised in the Spirit, is to trust in the deposit of His Spirit which is a guarantee of what is to come, and living like that 18 year who though does not have his billion, lives like a billionaire because he had a certificate to prove he is a billionaire.
So the answer again is:
No, it is not water baptism.
Water baptism is just a symbol of the true Baptism which saved you, which if you like to do, you can without any guilt or condemnation, it is your pledge to yourself and confession to everyone else that you believe it which both gives strength to you and the hearer.
and;
Yes, it is another type of knowledge.
It is the knowledge of the Truth, in which He has given His Spirit as a deposit of what is to come. The knowledge of the Truth allows you to live according to what you know is true, both past, present and future and live in it Today.
Quote from: Nathan on August 31, 2008, 07:35:47 AM
For me, it's not about getting wet . .it's about dying to the flesh and being raised in the spirit.
Which is by faith in which we were given the Spirit as a deposit guaranteeing what is to come.
2 Corinthians 5:1-10Now we know that if the earthly tent [earthly body] we live in is destroyed, we have a building [spiritual body] from God, an eternal house [spiritual body] in heaven, not built by human hands. Meanwhile we groan, longing to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling [spiritual body], because when we are clothed, we will not be found naked. For while we are in this tent [earthly body], we groan and are burdened, because we do not wish to be unclothed but to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling [spiritual body], so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life.
Now it is God who has made us for this very purpose and has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord.
We live by faith, not by sight. We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body [earthly body] and at home with the Lord [spiritual body]. So we make it our goal to please him, whether we are at home in the body [earthly body] or away from it [spiritual body]. For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body [earthly body], whether good or bad.
1 John 3:2-3 Dear friends, now we are children of God, and
what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when he appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. Everyone who has this hope in him purifies himself, just as he is pure.
John 17:13-18"I am coming to you now, but I say these things while I am still in the world, so that they may have the full measure of my joy within them. I have given them your word and the world has hated them, for they are not of the world any more than I am of the world.
My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one. They are not of the world, even as I am not of it. 17Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth. As you sent me into the world, I have sent them into the world
2 Corinthians 5:19-21That God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.
We are therefore Christ's ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ's behalf: Be reconciled to God. God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.
We can live presently in the knowledge of the Truth, walking by the Spirit which He has given us. We walk presently in the hope of the resurrection of the dead which has not yet been made known to us. However, since we know it is True, we walk as if it has already happened. When it happens is when He appears to take us from this earthly tent to our heavenly home. We are not of this world, but we are still in this world not taken from it. It is by faith He has already raised us up with Him, as ambassadors. Ambassadors, because we are not presently in our Heavenly home but away from our Heavenly home, but as ambassadors we have the same rights and privileges of the one who is at home away from home. So yes, presently are raised with Christ, with full authority and power as a Royal Priesthood, we wait patiently for when He comes to take us Home in the resurrection of the dead, which is by faith.
Quote from: SOTWGod made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.
Jeremiah 23:6
In his days, Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.
So Molly, looking at one of the scriptures quoted by SOTW you have another example of your "Book" being the complete story....
2 Corinthians 5:1-10
Now we know that if the earthly tent [earthly body] we live in is destroyed, we have a building [spiritual body] from God, an eternal house [spiritual body] in heaven, not built by human hands. Meanwhile we groan, longing to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling [spiritual body], because when we are clothed, we will not be found naked.
1--In the garden, the man and the woman hid themselves when they discovered that they were naked--
2--God gave them animal skins to wear at that point (*symbolic of the animal sacrafices to come for righteousness and eventually a picture of the Lamb that was slain for them at the cross; Jesus)
3--And eventually the man/woman will be clothed in the spiritual body!
Joyce :)
Quote from: joyful1 on September 01, 2008, 03:39:12 AM
So Molly, looking at one of the scriptures quoted by SOTW you have another example of your "Book" being the complete story....
Hello Joyce,
What does 'your "Book"' mean?
Quote from: joyful1 on September 01, 2008, 03:39:12 AM
So Molly, looking at one of the scriptures quoted by SOTW you have another example of your "Book" being the complete story....
2 Corinthians 5:1-10
Now we know that if the earthly tent [earthly body] we live in is destroyed, we have a building [spiritual body] from God, an eternal house [spiritual body] in heaven, not built by human hands. Meanwhile we groan, longing to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling [spiritual body], because when we are clothed, we will not be found naked.
1--In the garden, the man and the woman hid themselves when they discovered that they were naked--
2--God gave them animal skins to wear at that point (*symbolic of the animal sacrafices to come for righteousness and eventually a picture of the Lamb that was slain for them at the cross; Jesus)
3--And eventually the man/woman will be clothed in the spiritual body!
Joyce :)
Nice. :thumbsup:
These themes of nakedness and clothing run all through the Bible. There is a scripture which talks of putting on righteousness as a garment.
Maybe that's why earthly priests try so hard to look decorative--they think it's literal.
Job29:14
I put on righteousness, and it clothed me: my judgment was as a robe and a diadem.
Quote from: Molly on August 30, 2008, 06:12:54 PM
And, yet, we know that Adam, not being deceived, knew he would die. Adam made a decision, but was it the wrong one?
20For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.
--Romans 8
Are you saying that
Adam knowingly and willingly subjected creation to sin? That he was somehow "in" on God's plan?
Quote from: Pleroo on September 01, 2008, 05:48:02 AM
Are you saying that Adam knowingly and willingly subjected creation to sin? That he was somehow "in" on God's plan?
According to Scripture, that is exactly what happened. This takes some patience in understanding. Regardless if the desired outcome came of the actions, both Adam and Eve ate willingly of the Tree of Knowledge. They ate willingly not knowing exactly what was going to happen. What happened was not what they desired, but they willingly ate none-the-less. No person makes a wrong choice unwillingly, regardless of the consequence being not what they wanted, everyone thinks the choice they make is the right choice or else they never would have done it.
Knowledge is not a prerequisite to a willful choice. Many people make choices willingly without knowing what that choice will bring. It is only regret of their choice is when they say falsely, that is not what they chose when in fact that is exactly what the chose. If they knew what would happen, they never would have made that choice but because they are foolish, ignorant, inept, etc in their choices they willfully bring upon themselves whatever consequence that choice brings.
Sin, death, life, etc. are all part of God's plan whether a person knows it or not. Therefore whatever a person does has always been part of God's plan.
Quote from: Molly on August 30, 2008, 06:12:54 PM
20For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.
--Romans 8
I personally believe that this passage of Scripture is talking about Jesus after the resurrection, because He didn't immediately make all things right with the Creation after His resurrection, and as the next 3 chapters bare out He didn't immediately make all things right with Israel. But He subjected us all in hope to the Gospel when He said to go into all of the world and preach the Gospel to every single creature. (I guess all married creatures would be included too. :icon_jokercolor:) Those that believe are liberated from their bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God, while those that don't believe
aren't immediately enjoying the benefit of His redemptive work but continue in their subjection to frustration, according to, while at the same time not by their choice, 'cause who with a sound mind ever wishes such evils upon themselves as befall the unbeliever in this life. But the whole creation groans and travails, in the next verse, which evidently means that they're all still called according to His purposes even if they don't love God yet, as the next 3 chapters in Romans explain. Nothing can ever separate a single one, or a married one, of God's creatures from His love in Christ Jesus our Lord, and the God of peace will crush Satan under the feet of every creature very soon, whether human, animal, or other.
The creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God. The New Jerusalem will have no need of the sun, but that doesn't mean the sun won't exist 'cause it's a part of the beauty of God's Creation and it's one of the hymn singers of the heavens that delights in His praise. All of life [on earth] will simply be God-powered rather than Solar-powered as we have at present with how plants feed themselves and all of the other phenomenon of nature works out in our daily lives. The plants won't need the processes of the sun upon the wind and upon the sea for the plants to receive their dew, but the Presence of God in fullness will quench the thirst of every plant and of every other form of life on earth, just as it currently is that way in heaven. Outside of the New Jerusalem, whose gates aren't
ever locked, are still at that time some forms of life that the Spirit and the Bride will have to say to them "Come and take of the water of life freely!" They've been subjected to futility, but they will leave their bondage to decay and enter into the liberties of the children of God 'cause that's the hope of Christ; the joy that was set before Him through which He endured the Cross, despising it's accompanying shame, and has sat down at the right hand of God
expecting (i.e. in hope...) as the last Adam.
SOTW--see Molly's earlier comments about the whole Book--the whole Bible.
Joyce :)
Quote from: SOtW on September 01, 2008, 06:40:29 AM
Quote from: Pleroo on September 01, 2008, 05:48:02 AM
Are you saying that Adam knowingly and willingly subjected creation to sin? That he was somehow "in" on God's plan?
According to Scripture, that is exactly what happened. This takes some patience in understanding. Regardless if the desired outcome came of the actions, both Adam and Eve ate willingly of the Tree of Knowledge. They ate willingly not knowing exactly what was going to happen.
Okay, thanks. :)
But I was asking Molly to clarify for me if she believes that scripture she quoted indicates that Adam ate willing of the tree KNOWING what the outcome would be because he was aware of God's ultimate plan. I had never considered that possibility (I have assumed that passage was referring to
God's willingness to subject the creation to frustration) and it caught my interest.
Adam would not have hid, if he had known the plan.
Now sybolically, the First Adam is the shadow of the Second. In which the Second Adam, Jesus Christ, knew exactly the plan of the Father and willingly laid down his life to save the whole world.
.
Genesis 1:26
And God said, Let us make man in our 'image', after our 'likeness': and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
1:27
So God created man in his own 'image', in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
================
Notice that in verse 26 - God's plan was to create man in both 'image' and 'likness'.
But then when God did create man (verse 27), it states - man was only in image and NOT likeness of God.
I believe the 'likeness' (could not / would not) take place until Christ died and at that time mankind was capable of being brought into God's 'likeness' through salvation of the 'new man'.
AJ
Quote from: SOtW on September 03, 2008, 04:18:05 AM
Adam would not have hid, if he had known the plan.
Now sybolically, the First Adam is the shadow of the Second. In which the Second Adam, Jesus Christ, knew exactly the plan of the Father and willingly laid down his life to save the whole world.
For me, the emphasis isn't on Adam as much as it is on the redemptive work of Christ. In which case, if it happened before the foundation of the world, then Adam was redeemed before he fell, jumped, what-have-you. The hiding didn't come from Adam knowing ahead of time, it came from eating of the tree of knowledge which illuminates shame and guilt, which results in fear from the very one giving you the redemption. It's the veil. In man's eyes, he fell, in God's eyes, he did what he was supposed to do. Again, it's not about Adam, it's about manifesting the redemptive power and glory of Christ . . the only way that could happen the way it did was for Adam to be in a state where redemption was required.
Only Eve was decieved. Whether Adam knew what he was doing or not is only a side-note at best. It's interesting to think about, but the overall purpose was to begin the process of life on earth so Christ could make his entrance, bringing glory to the Father, and the Father could bring glory to his Son.
Yes only Eve was deceived. Adam was not deceived, he purposely broke the commandment knowing it was disobedience. He still had no understanding of what just occurred but at the same time he ashamed and guilty before God.
When I was a child, I would purposely disobey my parents and when caught, was ashamed and guilty for my disobedience. Doesn't mean I was afraid of punishment, or a beating, usually it was because I knew I disrespected my parents who had care enough to tell me what is beneficial and what is not.
A person who doesn't feel shame or guilt when they do wrong, is one who is not aware that they did anything wrong, or do not believe they did nothing wrong and therefore are deceived in themselves.
Who told you, you were naked? God isn't the one casting blame and shame, it is our carnal thinking that convinces us there must be a right and a wrong, a black and a white . . . Jesus didn't establish that. We always want to put the emphasis in the places that justify ourselves. I still do it at times without even realizing it. But in the spirit, there is really very little, if any awareness of the rightness or wrongness of self or others. Because to do so, is to ignore the power of the cross in these areas.
The light of truth really is blinding. It brings blindness to the guilt, shame, sin, failures and faults, condemnation . . .all that religious jargon has no hold on us.
1 Peter 2:15-17
For it is God's will that by doing good you should silence the ignorant talk of foolish men. Live as free men, but do not use your freedom as a cover-up for evil; live as servants of God. Show proper respect to everyone: Love the brotherhood of believers, fear God, honor the king.
Scripture does not say alone, "Who told you, you were naked?"
It says, And He said, "Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree that I commanded you not to eat from?"
- Genesis 3:11
Romans 1:28-32
Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. ...Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.
Were the naked or were they not, Nathan?
Yes, regardless of the knowledge of the nakedness, they were still naked whether they knew it or not!
Knowledge did not change the fact that they were created naked, the awareness that they were naked did not make them naked. They were naked already, but became aware of the fact that they were naked the moment they disobeyed God and eaten of the tree which He commanded them not to eat from.
1 Timothy 1:8-11
We know that the law is good if one uses it properly. We also know that law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious; for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, for adulterers and perverts, for slave traders and liars and perjurers—and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine that conforms to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which he entrusted to me.
It is carnal thinking to disobey the knowledge of the Truth; it is not carnal thinking to know the difference between good and evil.
Hebrews 5:11-14
We have much to say about this, but it is hard to explain because you are slow to learn. In fact, though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you the elementary truths of God's word all over again. You need milk, not solid food! Anyone who lives on milk, being still an infant, is not acquainted with the teaching about righteousness. But solid food is for the mature, who by constant use have trained themselves to distinguish good from evil.
The knowledge of good and evil, is not carnal thinking, it is righteousness. Those who are mature in Christ, have been trained to distinguish good from evil.
1 Timothy 4:6-7
In pointing out these things to the brethren, you will be a good servant of Christ Jesus, constantly nourished on the words of the faith and of the sound doctrine which you have been following. But have nothing to do with worldly fables fit only for old women On the other hand, discipline yourself for the purpose of godliness.
I totally see it another way and it's not worth the argument to try to pursue this any further with you.
Quote from: Nathan on September 03, 2008, 08:15:07 PM
I totally see it another way and it's not worth the argument to try to pursue this any further with you.
Doesn't matter how you see it, the Scripture disagrees with you, not me. Perception is not reality, reality exists whether we see it or not.
but of course
Quote from: SOTWThe knowledge of good and evil, is not carnal thinking, it is righteousness. Those who are mature in Christ, have been trained to distinguish good from evil.
I agree with this, and it's amazing to me how difficult it is to distinguish good from evil. You would think it would be easy, but it's not. It requires a lot of time, attention, thought, and the enlightenment of Spirit. It requires a hunger and thirst for the truth. It's no wonder to me how the whole world gets it wrong.
Matthew 5:6
Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they will be filled.
Quote from: Molly on September 03, 2008, 08:34:57 PM
Quote from: SOTWThe knowledge of good and evil, is not carnal thinking, it is righteousness. Those who are mature in Christ, have been trained to distinguish good from evil.
I agree with this, and it's amazing to me how difficult it is to distinguish good from evil. You would think it would be easy, but it's not. It requires a lot of time, attention, thought, and the enlightenment of Spirit. It requires a hunger and thirst for the truth. It's no wonder to me how the whole world gets it wrong.
Matthew 5:6
Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they will be filled.
It is amazing to me who those who profess to be spiritual, and know Christ, do not know the difference between good and evil. Neither do they acquire it, or seek it out.
Hosea 14:9Who is wise? He will realize these things. Who is discerning? He will understand them. The ways of the LORD are right; the righteous walk in them, but the rebellious stumble in them.
1 Corinthians 2:14The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Proverbs 18:15The heart of the discerning acquires knowledge; the ears of the wise seek it out.
Proverbs 15:14The discerning heart seeks knowledge, but the mouth of a fool feeds on folly.
Proverbs 17:24A discerning man keeps wisdom in view, but a fool's eyes wander to the ends of the earth.
Quote from: SOtW on September 03, 2008, 08:44:07 PM
It is amazing to me who those who profess to be spiritual, and know Christ, do not know the difference between good and evil. Neither do they acquire it, or seek it out.
But seeking it out does not mean one is able to then act on it. That requires Jesus Christ. So, both Nathan and SOTW make valid points ... 2 sides to the same coin. Both ideas are necessary and edifying to speak of. Thank you both.
I read an interesting concept the other day. The reason God referred to Himself in the plural in Genesis when He speaks of making man in "our" image is because He was speaking for Himself and for the one who was with Him: Wisdom (as per Proverbs 8). When man ate of the tree of good and evil he became not like God but "like ONE of us". He did not become like God, he became only like wisdom, "knowing good and evil".
I think, then, that it is only eating of the Tree of Life, Jesus, and putting on the Divine nature of God which enables us to use that knowledge for good.
Quote from: Pleroo
Are you saying that Adam knowingly and willingly subjected creation to sin? That he was somehow "in" on God's plan?
Not that he knew God's plan, so much, but that he acted like a chip off the old block. And, he knew his Father.
I have been looking at Adam for around two years now. I still am not sure who he is. He is called God-man when he is in the garden. He is called the son of God by Luke. He is appointed to be the husbandman of God's garden. He is a farmer like his Father. He has the Spirit of God (breath of God) and is not deceived.
He is a very important man, the first of the line leading directly to Jesus. This, too, is emphasized in the Bible. He is constantly maligned by the world as a doofus who is seduced by a silly woman, giving him here, also, the respectability of persecution.
It is Adam's seed that is passed to the generations of Adam, and that seed will crush the head of the serpent. We are told by Paul that this seed is Christ. To my mind, this makes Adam
.... the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. (Rev 13)
We know because he is earthy, of the earth, that he does fall with Eve into death. He hides from God after eating from the tree. Yet, Jesus is our kinsman redeemer. Jesus is coming to save his brothers, paying their debt under the Jewish law of kinship. There was always a family relationship here which will be revealed by the resurrected Christ--that mystery hid from ages and generations---hid in Christ until the time is ready to manifest it.
Matthew 25:40
And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.The crowds taunted Jesus while he was on the cross,
Save yourself!That is exactly what he was doing.
Thus our problem, I see it that it is not my mind, but it is the word of God . . .and not just the written word, but the spirit breathing through the Word, that divides the soul from the spirit. I don't want my mind to be left up to that decision . . . Just ask Craig . . my mind is wrong in everything else. I believe it's the Spirit in you that does the dividing . . .not my head.
Quote from: Nathan on September 03, 2008, 09:25:56 PM
Thus our problem, I see it that it is not my mind, but it is the word of God . . .and not just the written word, but the spirit breathing through the Word, that divides the soul from the spirit. I don't want my mind to be left up to that decision . . . Just ask Craig . . my mind is wrong in everything else. I believe it's the Spirit in you that does the dividing . . .not my head.
Yes, but don't you have to process it through your head?
Our minds are like an armed camp surrounded by the enemy. That is why we are told to
take captive every thought, just as soldiers guarding the camp would detain and question anyone from the outside who tried to enter.
We are to have the mind of Christ.
Quote from: Pleroo on September 03, 2008, 09:02:30 PM
Quote from: SOtW on September 03, 2008, 08:44:07 PM
It is amazing to me who those who profess to be spiritual, and know Christ, do not know the difference between good and evil. Neither do they acquire it, or seek it out.
But seeking it out does not mean one is able to then act on it.
The issue is: Seeking out the knowledge itself of good and evil, is carnal thinking. Please do not confuse the issue for this. I oppose this idea because it is not found in experience, reason, or even Scripture, that knowledge of good and evil is carnal thinking.
The knowledge of good and evil is not carnal thinking, it is a result of carnal thinking one does not live in obedience and as a result of disobedience, one is made aware of the knowledge of evil and recognizes the knowledge of good.
Do not mistake obedience to the Law of God as righteousness. We disobey out of ignorance and are made aware of good and evil as a result; it our disobedience which is our carnality, not the knowledge of good and evil which we receive as a result.
It is by faith that God is understanding, merciful and forgiving as demonstrated by sending His Son that we are made righteous in His eyes. He has bound us all over to disobedience, because we are disobedience, so that He can have mercy over us all.
God forgiveness is not an excuse to do evil, that which we know is evil. That is excuse is the carnality of man and not the knowledge of evil. The knowledge of evil is what recognizes this excuse to be the carnality of man.
Neither is fear of God's punishment an excuse to do good, that which we know is good. That excuse is the carnality of man and not the knowledge of good. It is the knowledge of good that recognizes this excuse to be the carnality of man Let me repeat.
Doing evil because we are under mercy, grace and forgiveness, is carnality.
Doing good because we are punished and disciplined if we don't, is carnality.We do good because it is the good thing to do, and should we fail, He is faithful to forgive us. However, If we continue to live in their carnal nature, whether doing good or evil, we shall suffer the consequences for the deeds we do, whether good or evil.
This is my verdict: Anytime I see anyone dispose of knowledge, proclaiming it to be evil, do so because they want to remain in ignorance. They are the ones living out of their carnality because they do not want knowledge to expose that which they might be doing and expose them to possible guilt and shame. They do not want to know that their deeds are evil.
John 3:19-21This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God."
Knowledge is the Light which brings responsibility and accountability to a person's life so that they can learn from their mistakes, be strong under any circumstance, and make good decisions in their life.
This is carnality at it's apex, fear of making a mistake, being weak in a situation, and making a wrong decision in the life. It is carnality which wants to be free of responsibility and accountability concerning one's mistakes, weaknesses and wrong decisions.
Those who live by the Spirit come boldly into the light and are not afraid to be seen plainly and have their evil deeds exposed in order that they can rid themselves of the evil they did not know existed, this is the work of God in their lives. That is why those who live by the Spirit die daily to self, in our weakness are we made strong in Christ.
1 Peter 2:15-17For it is God's will that by doing good you should silence the ignorant talk of foolish men. Live as free men, but do not use your freedom as a cover-up for evil; live as servants of God. Show proper respect to everyone: Love the brotherhood of believers, fear God, honor the king.
So Craig,
When Adam saw that he was naked . . .even though before eating the fruit he was naked then and not ashamed . . .after the tree he is still naked and now, also ashamed . . . help me out here, because I "think" you are saying the problem is not the diciphering between right and wrong, but it's our reaction to that knowledge of what is right or wrong . . .so . . .in Adam's case, his reaction was to clothe himself. . . not because he wanted to obey, but because he was ashamed and guilty of his nakedness.
From what I gather from you, you're saying that I judge what is right and what is wrong, I then choose what is right by the obedience of the Spirit. My confusion is when Adam clothed himself, but apparently it didn't cut it because God removed Adam's work and then reclothed Adam himself.
How do you see this to fit?
QuoteWe do good because it is the good thing to do, and should we fail, He is faithful to forgive us. However, If we continue to live in their carnal nature, whether doing good or evil, we shall suffer the consequences for the deeds we do, whether good or evil.
I can definitely see what you're saying and I see that what you've described is how it looks outwardly when we are living by the Spirit ... that it is we, ourselves, doing good. Yet it is not I, but Christ in me doing what is good. This is what I meant by putting on Christ's divine nature and this is why I see much good in what Nathan is saying, if I'm not misunderstanding him: It is ALL about what Christ is doing in and through me, not what I myself do.
That is the simplicity of the gospel to me.
Quote from: Molly on September 03, 2008, 09:05:13 PM
That is exactly what he was doing.
Thank you. That's a very interesting perspective.
Hello Nathan,
I have a two page response to this little quote, but I will first present you with a simple reply.
Quote from: Nathan on September 03, 2008, 09:59:05 PM
So Craig,
When Adam saw that he was naked . . .even though before eating the fruit he was naked then and not ashamed . . .after the tree he is still naked and now, also ashamed . . . help me out here, because I "think" you are saying the problem is not the diciphering between right and wrong, but it's our reaction to that knowledge of what is right or wrong . . .so . . .in Adam's case, his reaction was to clothe himself. . . not because he wanted to obey, but because he was ashamed and guilty of his nakedness.
I did not say he was ashamed and guilty of his nakedness. Nor have I communicated this.
Quote from: NathanFrom what I gather from you, you're saying that I judge what is right and what is wrong, I then choose what is right by the obedience of the Spirit. My confusion is when Adam clothed himself, but apparently it didn't cut it because God removed Adam's work and then reclothed Adam himself.
How do you see this to fit?
This is essential to understanding universal reconciliation and universal salvation.
His reaction to cloth himself was because he was naked and needed to hide his wrong doing. Why it doesn't cut it is because only God can fix this.
Even a child, who is ignorant of right or wrong, when they have disobeyed their parent recognize they did wrong even though prior to this they know nothing about it. When a child knows they have done wrong, they instinctively try to hide it because they are ashamed of their wrong doing, even if they do not express it verbally. Although the child did wrong, they not excluded or rejected by their parent. However, this is not recognized until the child confesses they did wrong and are disciplined for it.
Hebrews 12:4-13 In your struggle against sin, you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood. And you have forgotten that word of encouragement that addresses you as sons: "My son, do not make light of the Lord's discipline, and do not lose heart when he rebukes you, because the Lord disciplines those he loves, and he punishes everyone he accepts as a son."
Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as sons. For what son is not disciplined by his father? If you are not disciplined (and everyone undergoes discipline), then you are illegitimate children and not true sons. Moreover, we have all had human fathers who disciplined us and we respected them for it. How much more should we submit to the Father of our spirits and live! Our fathers disciplined us for a little while as they thought best; but God disciplines us for our good, that we may share in his holiness. No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it. Therefore, strengthen your feeble arms and weak knees. "Make level paths for your feet," so that the lame may not be disabled, but rather healed.To be obedient to the Spirit, is not to obedience the Law of God. These are two different things, that is why none are declared righteous by obedience to the Law of God but by faith. The Law of God can only show us right and wrong. To be obedient to the Spirit of God is to trust by faith, that despite our disobedience to the Law of God, God has mercy over us and forgives us our sins. To be obedient to the Spirit, isn't to say you are free from rebuke, or discipline, or punishment. To be obedient to the Spirit is to know despite rebuke, or discipline, or punishment, you are loved and accepted as Children of God.
I have been a pastor for 8 years and I recognize long ago, prior to the knowledge of Universal Reconciliation, that the Law and the Spirit were and have been incorrectly taught for years. What I see often as a result, is a skewed understanding of the Law and the Spirit by those in ET, and those who came from that environment though rejecting what they were taught in ET, still come out with this skewed understanding of the Law and the Spirit.
8And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, LORD God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.
--Rev 4
Quote from: Pleroo on September 03, 2008, 11:26:23 PM
QuoteWe do good because it is the good thing to do, and should we fail, He is faithful to forgive us. However, If we continue to live in their carnal nature, whether doing good or evil, we shall suffer the consequences for the deeds we do, whether good or evil.
I can definitely see what you're saying and I see that what you've described is how it looks outwardly when we are living by the Spirit ... that it is we, ourselves, doing good. Yet it is not I, but Christ in me doing what is good. This is what I meant by putting on Christ's divine nature and this is why I see much good in what Nathan is saying, if I'm not misunderstanding him: It is ALL about what Christ is doing in and through me, not what I myself do.
That is the simplicity of the gospel to me.
You have yet to understand what I am saying. What is Christ doing in you which is good? I will tell you again, "should we fail, He is faithful to forgive us." That is what it means to put on Christ's divine nature, this is the good He does for you and us in Him.
QuoteIt is ALL about what Christ is doing in and through me, not what I myself do.
Is your mind set still is on that your works mean anything to your salvation and to your acceptance? If so, that shows me you have yet to understand what it means to live by the Spirit. People should be beyond this mindset, because this isn't about salvation or acceptance.
2 Corinthians 13:4-8For indeed He was crucified because of weakness, yet He lives because of the power of God For we also are weak in Him, yet we will live with Him because of the power of God directed toward you. Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you--unless indeed you fail the test? But I trust that you will realize that we ourselves do not fail the test.Now we pray to God that you do no wrong; not that we ourselves may appear approved, but that you may do what is right, even though we may appear unapproved. For we can do nothing against the truth, but only for the truth. Ephesians 2:10For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
Correct me, if I misunderstood you.
Here is what I gather from Nathan's own words, He rejects the knowledge of good and evil, calling it an invention of man's carnality.
Is that what you believe Pelroo? That there is no good and evil?
Quote from: Molly on September 04, 2008, 01:34:23 AM
8And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, LORD God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.
--Rev 4
RIGHT! Now you are getting it!
Okay Craig . .first, I never said you stated they were ashamed "I" said they were ashamed, perhaps I should just leave it with they were afraid . . .. at any rate, there is nothing you've said after that, that I disagree with. I do believe there are consequences for all of our decisions. I do believe there is a right and wrong even. I just don't think it's my business to go to you and try to tell you that you should change what you do because in my eyes you're doing it wrong.
All of these things are things for me to apply to me . .. not for me to apply to others. What is good to me, doesn't necessarily mean that it's good to you . .same with what is bad to me, doesn't necessarily apply to what is bad to you.
Judge not lest ye . . .we all know the passage.
Okay . .this is how I see Romans 3 fit in with the tree and law . . .law is the knowledge of sin. That's what happened to Adam, he ate of the tree of knowledge, and immediately his awareness of sin was all he could see. There's no righteousness in emphasizing the law, or the sin . . "that's" why I believe when we walk in the spirit, we are blind to sin. I never said one can go and live in sin without reprocussions . . .in fact, if that's the mindset, then one doesn't have the mind of Christ in the first place.
The mind of Christ to me, is not about adhereing to what is good and what is bad. It's about life. Seeing the light in people and not the darkness. The righteousness of God manifests in us, when we are blind to the sin in us and others.
The two trees of the garden, to me, are the two natures within all of us. Life and law. Knowledge is law . .sorry if that sounds repetitive, but it's always connected. It's not that knowledge is bad, of course it's not, the problem in me is when I am led by knowledge and not by life. It's the order of them. I don't throw one out . . . if I came across that way, it's not what I meant. For me, it's order . . .Spirit first, then soul . .then body.
Adam stepped out of that when he ate of the tree of knowledge and we've been out of order ever since . . which is what inviting Christ does . . .his death on the cross enabled us to return to our original order in God . .when we accept Christ, he restores that order in us, when we don't we continue to live our lives by our own reason. And here, for me, is where Roy's "which Christ is true" concept comes in because there are many who have been born into denominational Christs . .which is what many are now awakening to and they are realizing there's something more than the Christ they were taught to serve.
I just removed the last sentence that I think was [genuinely] unintentionally confrontational.
Could it be that to not judge good and evil is instruction on making a determination for someones heart?
I know I have met people that if you get to know them have hearts that wish to seek God, but people in the church they go to judge their standing with God based upon that behavior and assess their worth as people with the same demeanor. I have been judged that way as well by all kinds of people whether in church or not.
I do not believe we have the ability or the right to judge that.
My habitual drug use in the past was not a good thing that I did and I do not advocate that anyone do it.
But that drug use never changed my standing with God nor affected his love for me, nor did it cause a change in what God had planned for me.
All the while all I was trying to do was belong to something greater than me, that was one way I thought it might happen. To feel like I had worth. That wrong in my life never changed whether I was saved, could be saved or otherwise affected my salvation one iota. Did I reap consequenses? Oh you bet I did; do I regret ever using drugs? Not really, not because I think I was not wrong but because the power of God has demonstrated I do not have to live in its shadow all my life.
Not sure if this fits in with what is being said, so I'm not trying to hijack the thread, but this came to mind while I was reading.
If someone thinks judging right and wrong, is making a condemnation or judgment on their heart, I believe they have jumped to conclusions.
1 Corinthians 2:10-15
The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us. This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words. The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. The spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he himself is not subject to any human judgment: "For who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct him?" and we have the mind of Christ.
It is the world that cannot accept right and wrong, it is the world which is politically correct, it is the world that lives subjectively. The problem here is, that someone here believes the knowledge of good and evil is human wisdom, and those judgment according what is good and evil is human judgment. Where they got this idea, I know quite well.
1 Thessalonians 4:7-8
For God did not call us to be impure, but to live a holy life. Therefore, he who rejects this instruction does not reject man but God, who gives you his Holy Spirit.
2 Timothy 2:24-26
And the Lord's servant must not quarrel; instead, he must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful. Those who oppose him he must gently instruct, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth, and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will.
If we indeed have the mind of Christ, then we can judge all things because our judgment is not based on human standards, but by the Spirit. If we indeed have the mind of Christ, then we can instruct in godliness.
There has yet to be someone to have refute to these words with sound doctrine, and because I said sound doctrine they think religion, but that is because they have lost sight of the Truth, and in their hurt, have had their consciences seared.
QuoteMy habitual drug use in the past was not a good thing that I did and I do not advocate that anyone do it.
But that drug use never changed my standing with God nor affected his love for me, nor did it cause a change in what God had planned for me.
All the while all I was trying to do was belong to something greater than me, that was one way I thought it might happen. To feel like I had worth. That wrong in my life never changed whether I was saved, could be saved or otherwise affected my salvation one iota. Did I reap consequenses? Oh you bet I did; do I regret ever using drugs? Not really, not because I think I was not wrong but because the power of God has demonstrated I do not have to live in its shadow all my life.
This is a good example. You expressed exactly what I know to be true.
You knew that doing drugs was wrong and even reaped the consequences of the wrong you did, but you knew something greater. You knew that your wrong never changed your standing with God or affected his love for you, nor did it cause a change in what God had planned for you; nor did that wrong never changed whether you were saved, could be saved or otherwise. This is called living by the Spirit, and that is why you are not ashamed and at the same time understand what is good and what is evil in your life.
Quote from: SOTWThis is called living by the Spirit, and that is why you are not ashamed and at the same time understand what is good and what is evil in your life.
Although I think shame at our own actions could cause/result from repentence.
I notice that those who do evil on purpose, who know they are doing evil, are shameless. They are even proud of the evil they do, and happy to boast if given a chance.
But, those who can see the error of their ways are remorseful.
Matthew 26:75
And Peter remembered the word of Jesus, which said unto him, Before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice. And he went out, and wept bitterly.
Quote from: Molly on September 04, 2008, 03:49:57 AM
I notice that those who do evil on purpose, who know they are doing evil, are shameless. They are even proud of the evil they do, and happy to boast if given a chance.
I have to respond to this simply because I am one who has done evil, I planned it, and felt good about it, but that was not the totality of my entire being. There are people in my life that even while in that state of mind I would have injured myself before carrying out such an act upon them.
Even while doing the above the entirety of my being roared to get the attention of something that could bring peace. I have also wondered why there are so many people that are not deterred by prison. It did not deter me, I almost went to prison and there is nothing I can see in my life that prevented it except it was not Gods intention.
In fact, at the time I was willing to go to jail because I thought in my mind that it might cure me of what was wrong with me. I thought this while still feeling no remorse over what I did. What appeared on the outside was not the entire scope of who I was or what I ultimatly thought about and wanted.
I am more thinking outloud here in this post rather than just disagreeing with you. As recently I think God has been wanting me to focus on this aspect of human behavior because he has put some people in my life that struggle deeply with this. They are extremely hard people to love because of what they do and things they often say. But because they practically mirror myself in a very dark time in my life, I see what they long for in their heart. I pray that the hope I see in the bible for all mankind is indeed true and manifests itself in their life as well.
QuoteI notice that those who do evil on purpose, who know they are doing evil, are shameless. They are even proud of the evil they do, and happy to boast if given a chance.
There is a difference:
I have purposely done wrong in my life, and felt no guilt or condemnation. I also know that my circumstances made me very weak in that moment and it was not difficult to make that decision to do what is evil over what is good. The difference is I know God is watching me, and knows my heart. I do repent of my actions, but I did not need shame or guilt to repent, I simply knew that what I did was not right and have not done it any longer. I will slip and fall from time to time, and willfully choose to do evil when I know I should do good. That is why I know the knowledge of good and evil is not out of the carnality of man, it is what made me aware of what was evil in my life and helped me get over the justifications for the evil in my life. I take 100% accountability for the sin I do, even though it is not I who does it but sin that lives within me. We always have a choice between good and evil in our lives that we do, some decisions are easier to make than others.
I do not boast of that evil I do, nor am I happy to boast about it. I know it is wrong. The people who are happy with the evil they do, are the ones who are shameless. Those who boast on their evil given the chance, are men and women of depraved hearts and minds and know not God.
That is the difference.
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on September 04, 2008, 02:48:46 AM
Could it be that to not judge good and evil is instruction on making a determination for someones heart?
I know I have met people that if you get to know them have hearts that wish to seek God, but people in the church they go to judge their standing with God based upon that behavior and assess their worth as people with the same demeanor. I have been judged that way as well by all kinds of people whether in church or not.
I do not believe we have the ability or the right to judge that.
My habitual drug use in the past was not a good thing that I did and I do not advocate that anyone do it.
But that drug use never changed my standing with God nor affected his love for me, nor did it cause a change in what God had planned for me.
All the while all I was trying to do was belong to something greater than me, that was one way I thought it might happen. To feel like I had worth. That wrong in my life never changed whether I was saved, could be saved or otherwise affected my salvation one iota. Did I reap consequenses? Oh you bet I did; do I regret ever using drugs? Not really, not because I think I was not wrong but because the power of God has demonstrated I do not have to live in its shadow all my life.
Not sure if this fits in with what is being said, so I'm not trying to hijack the thread, but this came to mind while I was reading.
No hijacking at all . . .not to me anyway. You are definitely saying what I am saying. I really struggle with the high level of disgust in these conversations that I get coming from others. I thought we were on these boards to build each other up. That's not at you Paul.
This is . . .
What you're saying "is" what I'm saying. And I'd like to take that to the next step. . . Did you feel shame for being hooked on the drugs? Did you beat yourself up? Did you try to break the habit without anyone else telling you the Bible says it's wrong? There is so much focus on the rules in the Bible that the message of life is so overlooked. Jesus did not come to establish the Bible. He infact even stated that you can't live on the bread alone . .the bread, the manna . . .the Scriptures. Life is not in the letter of the Word, it's in the Spirit that inspired the Word. If Jesus came to establish the Word, he wouldn't have preached in parables, he would have preached what was already written.
For me, to come to you (back to you again Paul) and tell you that you really need to break this habit of drugs in your life because you're being a terrible witness and it's an abomination to God is NOT my responsibility, nor is it any other "man's". That's the Holy Spirit's job to convict you from within. And the other piece to that, you are exactly right, it has no affect on your salvation at all anyway. It's just something that tears up your physical life. But again, I'm pretty sure, you already knew that when you were going through it, and to have the church come along side you and tell you what you already know is just not beneficial.
I don't need to tell you what is right and what is wrong. If the Spirit is in you, He will reveal that to you . . .and also give you the power to choose what's right. And if you don't, again, it's not my responsibility to keep you in line. "MY" job, is to love on you regardless of your issues. To encourage you, to lift you up, to let you know you have a friend. To "be" Christ to you.
Quote from: SOtW on September 04, 2008, 01:35:14 AM
Quote from: Pleroo on September 03, 2008, 11:26:23 PM
QuoteWe do good because it is the good thing to do, and should we fail, He is faithful to forgive us. However, If we continue to live in their carnal nature, whether doing good or evil, we shall suffer the consequences for the deeds we do, whether good or evil.
I can definitely see what you're saying and I see that what you've described is how it looks outwardly when we are living by the Spirit ... that it is we, ourselves, doing good. Yet it is not I, but Christ in me doing what is good. This is what I meant by putting on Christ's divine nature and this is why I see much good in what Nathan is saying, if I'm not misunderstanding him: It is ALL about what Christ is doing in and through me, not what I myself do.
That is the simplicity of the gospel to me.
You have yet to understand what I am saying. What is Christ doing in you which is good? I will tell you again, "should we fail, He is faithful to forgive us." That is what it means to put on Christ's divine nature, this is the good He does for you and us in Him.
QuoteIt is ALL about what Christ is doing in and through me, not what I myself do.
Is your mind set still is on that your works mean anything to your salvation and to your acceptance? If so, that shows me you have yet to understand what it means to live by the Spirit. People should be beyond this mindset, because this isn't about salvation or acceptance.
Really? That's what you got out of what I said? I guess that's a good sign that somehow I'm not communicating well. That seems to happen to me a lot on this forum and it's why I don't participate much. :dontknow:
Quote2 Corinthians 13:4-8
For indeed He was crucified because of weakness, yet He lives because of the power of God For we also are weak in Him, yet we will live with Him because of the power of God directed toward you. Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you--unless indeed you fail the test? But I trust that you will realize that we ourselves do not fail the test.Now we pray to God that you do no wrong; not that we ourselves may appear approved, but that you may do what is right, even though we may appear unapproved. For we can do nothing against the truth, but only for the truth.
Ephesians 2:10
For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
Correct me, if I misunderstood you.
Honestly, I don't know if I can express what I said any clearer. Christ works in and through me. Of course I believe that I have forgiveness through him. That is the beginning of salvation. But I believe that salvation also includes sanctification, a process through which Christ is being raised in me. That was what I was speaking of. I don't sanctify myself, it is not
I being obedient to do what is right or keep from doing what is wrong ... it is
Christ in me, the author and
finisher of my faith. That is all I was saying.
QuoteHere is what I gather from Nathan's own words, He rejects the knowledge of good and evil, calling it an invention of man's carnality.
Is that what you believe Pelroo? That there is no good and evil?
That isn't what I gathered from his words, so I was never addressing that possibility. But, no, that isn't what I believe. :)
QuoteReally? That's what you got out of what I said? I guess that's a good sign that somehow I'm not communicating well. That seems to happen to me a lot on this forum and it's why I don't participate much. :dontknow:
As I said, if I was wrong, please correct me. Thank-you for understanding, it is okay to correct me. Some others on this forum, do not think it is prudent to correct one another because somehow they believe that this is illuminating guilt, shame, and short falls and not a course correction for truth and unity. Only way we are able to have understanding is when we work together in mutual edification towards unity, that means tearing down pretenses and misunderstandings.
QuoteHonestly, I don't know if I can express what I said any clearer. Christ works in and through me. Of course I believe that I have forgiveness through him. That is the beginning of salvation. But I believe that salvation also includes sanctification, a process through which Christ is being raised in me. That was what I was speaking of.
I have some questions:
Who do you think "Christ raised in me" is? a) A Spirit of God
b) Jesus, the Christ, who was born, died and rose from the dead
c) God Himself
d) Other.
Quote from: PlerooI don't sanctify myself, it is not I being obedient to do what is right or keep from doing what is wrong ... it is Christ in me, the author and finisher of my faith. That is all I was saying.
As I said, sanctification is not about being right and wrong. This is why there is miscommunication here.
Is your mind set still is on that your works mean anything to your salvation and to your acceptance? a) Yes
b) No
I realize what the problem is with the train of thought being expressed.
It appears to me, people are still in need of assurance concerning their salvation, and that is why salvation continues to be brought up within this discussion. They perceive discussions on obedience, knowledge of good and evil, good works, etc, as opposition to the idea of salvation and so continue to reject such understandings and just hold on to their salvation not wishing listen to anything else, just in case they may lose it.
What I am speaking concerning, which Paul H has shown in his example, is something that is beyond salvation. The things which accompany our salvation.
Hebrews 6:1, 7-12Therefore let us leave the elementary teachings about Christ and go on to maturity....
Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God. But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned.
Even though we speak like this, dear friends, we are confident of better things in your case—things that accompany salvation. God is not unjust; he will not forget your work and the love you have shown him as you have helped his people and continue to help them. We want each of you to show this same diligence to the very end, in order to make your hope sure. We do not want you to become lazy, but to imitate those who through faith and patience inherit what has been promised.Believe me, if you are sowing thorns, your harvest is worthless, near being cursed and will be thrown into the fire.
What do you think that means?
Quote from: SOtW on September 04, 2008, 08:03:03 PMAs I said, if I was wrong, please correct me. Thank-you for understanding, it is okay to correct me. Some others on this forum, do not think it is prudent to correct one another because somehow they believe that this is illuminating guilt, shame, and short falls and not a course correction for truth and unity. Only way we are able to have understanding is when we work together in mutual edification towards unity, that means tearing down pretenses and misunderstandings.
I really appreciate that as I'm one of those people who likes to see things resolved and not fester, although I think I care less about unity concerning "facts" and more about unity in the way we treat each other as brothers and sisters. That's just the way I'm wired :icon_flower: , for better or worse.
In light of that, may I try to set something right with you? I'm feeling a bit used by you. It seems to me you have a beef with someone else and you are using your responses to my posts to take jabs at them. You write things like "Some others think thus and such". I'd rather make my own judgment calls on what people are thinking based on
their words, not on your interepretation of their words. If I'm wrong, that's okay, I can work through that on my own.
I enjoy discussing my hope in Christ. I know I have much to learn and not a lot to offer to the discussion at this point, but being part of discussion is still one of the ways that I learn best. I have a hard enough time finding the courage to jump in on the discussions in these forums, however. And, now, when I finally do, the main response I get from you seems not to be for the purpose of including me in the discussion but for the purpose of chastising someone else with whom you haven't yet resolved whatever personal issues you have with them. Like I said, I don't like seeing that kind of thing fester between people, so having my posts used for that purpose is rather distressing to me.
I hope you'll take this in the spirit it's offered. I'm not upset with you about this. I'm just very uncomfortable with it and would like to clear the air about it before I respond to anything else in your post.
I have no beef with anyone Pleroo. My point is in my replies, especially in this discussion concerning the problem of the belief which says a person points out wrong, is carnality; and sharing with people what is right, is carnality. As you can see, I have no problem with you expressing yourself and that we had a misunderstanding or in need of further communication. Even if it was uncomfortable, it leads to unity.
It was Confucius, who said, "Treat one another as they want to be treated". It was God who said, "Love your neighbor as you love yourself." It was Jesus who said, "Love one another as I love you." We don't follow Confucius.
We are not individuals, we are the Body. The Body does as the Head tells it, not what the other parts want it to do. If one part of the body hurts, the whole body hurts. Emotional hurt, is the most easiest to see, but there is deeper hurts which destroy that very hope you believe in.
I live in a world where people make it habit to assume thing but never make a point of clarification. I was listening to the radio today and they were talking about the failures of western society. One of these failures is the ability to express alarm, or warning concerning another person's thoughts or actions. As a result, we now live in a world unimpeded except for extreme cases in which it breaks the Law.
It is uncomfortable, that is how everyone is wired. Adam was uncomfortable when God asked him if he had disobeyed Him. Adam didn't fess up, he blamed his wife, his wife didn't fess up, she blamed the serpent, and yet, all three were held responsible and paid the consequence.
Ironically, this is the point and I am not using you, you are part of this discussion. I understand your hope, I understand what Nathan is saying.
I can sing His praises all day about this hope we both share. If this is what people want, to remain drinking the milk of the gospel, then I will let them drink milk. However, if we are still but just infants, we will be toss to and fro with every wind of doctrine and evil scheming of wicked men. There is more than emotional hurt, there is the correction that needs to take place when the Truth is in dispute.
I will rejoice with you in the Hope that Jesus has saved all mankind, He is the Beginning and the End, He is the author and finisher of our faith. Praise Jesus, to the Glory of the Father!
I know there is far more which involves us because we were created for the sole purpose to do good works. So what happens, when we go against the purpose in which we were created? That is what I am speaking on, that is what I am sharing, that is what I am instructing.
So, is it possible that anyone answers any questions posed to them? Or is that all we want? Just to praise Him for our salvation.
QuoteI can sing His praises all day about this hope we both share. If this is what people want, to remain drinking the milk of the gospel, then I will let them drink milk. However, if we are still but just infants, we will be toss to and fro with every wind of doctrine and evil scheming of wicked men. There is more than emotional hurt, there is the correction that needs to take place when the Truth is in dispute.
I guess we're on two different pages right now. I'm not seeing what it is you feel the need to correct. That's okay. I'm not the main player here and my heart and brain are being led to concentrate on other things right this moment, anyway. So perhaps I've unintentionally tread on ground where I didn't belong in the first place. I'll take leave of the thread and I give my sincere apologies for any confusion or interruption I may have brought to it.
QuoteI'm not seeing what it is you feel the need to correct.
The mentality, that we are not part of the solution to many of our own problems because we fail to recognize the knowledge of what is good and what is evil. There is a saying, "Everything happens for a reason." Accepting that the reason being that God intended to be like that. This needs correction, "Everything happens for a reason" because we reap what we sow. We are responsible for our lives, God is responsible for our salvation.
Quote from: SOtW on September 05, 2008, 03:14:44 AM
QuoteI'm not seeing what it is you feel the need to correct.
The mentality, that we are not part of the solution to many of our own problems because we fail to recognize the knowledge of what is good and what is evil. There is a saying, "Everything happens for a reason." Accepting that the reason being that God intended to be like that. This needs correction, "Everything happens for a reason" because we reap what we sow. We are responsible for our lives, God is responsible for our salvation.
Craig,
Isn't that contradicting your "free will box" drawing?
Something like:
We are
partly responsible for our lives, God is
almost fully responsible for our salvation.
I do not see where it contradicts the drawing, omission is not contradiction. Within your habitation and boundary, you have a will concerning your life and God is Sovereign over everything. Within the blue box, you are responsible and reap what you sow, where that box boundary ends, is where God had set it's limits.
Perhaps we just draw different conclusions from your drawing.
Say there are a total of 10 billion choices that can be made in life.
God puts you in a box with a selection of only 1% of all possible choices. (my habitation)
By giving me only 1% of all choices the reaping and sowing are greatly controled.
Especially if the 1% is of the positive and caring type. Or the opposite pure greed.
For that reason I came to my conclusion.
But if you set my 1% at, say, 70% then the conclusion is very diffrent.
Of course you never used percentages in your drawing but that's just what I feel after reading your posts on free will....
QuotePerhaps we just draw different conclusions from your drawing.
It isn't about the amount of choices, it is about the human being with the ability to make choices. There may indeed be billions of choices that we can make, but God is with us the entire way. The affect of your choices ends when God has taken you from this life and everything after your life, is completely in God's hands.
Hi all,
I'm hoping that you'll forgive my not going through every post with a fine toothed comb. Just being three pages, this thread is LONG when I just came on the scene. That said, I would like to throw in my two cents along with all of this fantastic exchange.
Personally, I find it important to understand the culture and thinking of the people who wrote the passages. Ancient Hebrews thought concretely. This means that if they could not personally relate to it through the senses (touch, taste, smell, see - or relationally via the heart) that it was rare that they considered it - if at all. The concepts that are often applied to the bible, are abstract and that can lead to a great deal of misunderstanding.
For example, the word translated "image" is "tselem" and it literally means "shadow". Translators often interpret as they earnestly try to convey the story as they understand it. A "shadow" is concrete and relational where as a conceptual "image" is not. The Hebrews therefore will have seen this as a shadow cast by a care-taker... like a shepard over his sheep, or a father over his children. If you have children, peek in on them tonight and see the shadow that you cast -- that is the image in which humanity was created.
Another example from an article I wrote titled "Why Hebrew?":
QuoteExodus 34 14 For you shall not bow to another god, for Jehovah whose name is Jealous, He is a jealous God;
This may not sound like a God of love to us. Jealousy is such an "ugly green emotion". This sounds as if God is inconsistant and not the same, from now, and forever. A glimpse into what the Ancient Hebrew writer meant, when he chose such a word, will clear things up.
"Jealous" is the Hebrew "QaNA". Some very ancient writing sheds some insight in how they understood that word. It was written in picture form, like Egyptian heiroglyph. Each symbol, which in our modern alphabet are letters, had meaning.
"Q", the symbol for a rising and setting sun.. To the Hebrew people, the sun gathered the light to it at sunset, and the dark to it at dawn. The rising and setting sun was understood as circling the earth. The meaning of the symbol is "the circling sun which causes the gathering of light and darkness".
Seeds were understood to be the beginning of life from a parent plant, in a continuous, generational cycle. The meaning of the symbol for seed is "a continuation of life from a seed", pronounced "N".
Together, the seed placed before the rising sun, their meaning is "The gathering of materials for the building of a nest for the seeds (eggs)", pronounced "QeN".
"QaNA"/"Jealous" is written with a bull's head (symbol for strength), and then the seed and sun symbols.
When the symbols are combined, we can better understand the communication offered by the author in Exodus 34:14. It is the visual of a bird watching over the eggs and young with "jealousy" (the action, not an emotion), defending them from the enemy, preventing any other bird from entering the nest.
Just as a bird watches over and protects its' nest from predetors, so does God watch over and protect his children from predetors.
Again a word, in this case "jealousy" being removed from being understood abstractly, can offer richness in our understanding what the original authors are trying to communicate.
"Likeness" ("demuth") is "similitude". Hebrews could see that dogs had offspring after their kind, goats after their kind, and people after their kind. How could human beings be children of God if they were made of flesh and related to the world through that flesh? I think first there was a magnification of the perspective of flesh - through the Mosaic Law. Then there was the revelation of Jesus as he contrasted the flesh understanding of the law with a spiritual understanding. It demonstrated not necessarily an err of humanity, but a short sightedness.
"Spirit" mind you, was not removed and abstract either. It is experienced in the heart and is that which flows forth from it. Like, a lying person had a "spirit of falsehood" and a generous person had a "giving spirit". There is an overarching "Spirit of God" and God is defined as "love".
God promised Israel that if she could keep her end of a deal, that she would be "Kings" (having authority - which they will have seen as God himself in them) and "Priests", not to herself, but to others. She fell short, again bringing to light a short sightedness inherant in every human being. Jesus kept her part on her behalf, he having "eyes to see". She inherited what was promised and so the entire world was given a new sight - the old world having passed away.
As humanity had been in the likeness of "Adam" (flesh and blood thinking..see Romans 8:6 for example per "mind of flesh") it would have life in the likeness of the "last Adam", becoming as a "heavenly man" and a "new creation".
Since the truth is revealed, that is accomplished - Jesus has come to us, God is "all in all" -- but again, I'm just throwing my two cents in, I'm not formulating an argument. This is my view as I see it - you sure don't have to :-).
Amie
(2 Corinthians 4:4) In whom, the god of this age, hath blinded the minds of the unbelieving, to the end they may not discern the radiance of the glad–message of the glory of the Christ––who is the image of God.
(Genesis 1:27) And God created the man, in his own image, In the image of God, created he, him,––Male and female, created he, them.
So both the first and second Adam are created in the image of God.
For Molly Reply #16 Aug. 30.
Joh 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. (KJV)
Joh 5:39 Ye search the scriptures, because ye think that in them ye have eternal life; and these are they which bear witness of me; (ASV)
Joh 5:39 Ye search the Scriptures, because, ye, think, by them, to have, life age–abiding; and, those [Scriptures], are they which bear witness concerning me:(Rotherham)
Joh 5:39 You search the writings, because you think in them life age-lasting to have; and they are those testifying concerning me;(Emp.Diag)
Joh 5:39 You pore over the Scriptures, for you think that you will find eternal life in them, and these very Scriptures testify to me,(Goodspeed)
Joh 5:39 "You search the Scriptures, because you suppose that in them you will find the Life of the Ages; and it is those Scriptures that yield testimony concerning me;(Weymouth)
Joh 5:39 `Ye search the Writings, because ye think in them to have life age-during, and these are they that are testifying concerning me;(YLT)
I believe it makes a great deal of difference in our understanding
Quote from: micah7:9 on September 28, 2010, 01:29:56 AM
For Molly Reply #16 Aug. 30.
Joh 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. (KJV)
Joh 5:39 Ye search the scriptures, because ye think that in them ye have eternal life; and these are they which bear witness of me; (ASV)
Joh 5:39 Ye search the Scriptures, because, ye, think, by them, to have, life age–abiding; and, those [Scriptures], are they which bear witness concerning me:(Rotherham)
Joh 5:39 You search the writings, because you think in them life age-lasting to have; and they are those testifying concerning me;(Emp.Diag)
Joh 5:39 You pore over the Scriptures, for you think that you will find eternal life in them, and these very Scriptures testify to me,(Goodspeed)
Joh 5:39 "You search the Scriptures, because you suppose that in them you will find the Life of the Ages; and it is those Scriptures that yield testimony concerning me;(Weymouth)
Joh 5:39 `Ye search the Writings, because ye think in them to have life age-during, and these are they that are testifying concerning me;(YLT)
I believe it makes a great deal of difference in our understanding
I do not know what that was about but I know it sounds like music to my ears!
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 10, 2010, 12:41:32 PM
(2 Corinthians 4:4) In whom, the god of this age, hath blinded the minds of the unbelieving, to the end they may not discern the radiance of the glad–message of the glory of the Christ––who is the image of God.
(Genesis 1:27) And God created the man, in his own image, In the image of God, created he, him,––Male and female, created he, them.
So both the first and second Adam are created in the image of God.
Take a good look at the blue parts.....
Son is the image of Father.
Son=Image
We are created in the image of Father.
We are created in the Son of Father.
so God created man, in the image of God. So one is the artist and one is the model!
TT, all,
I'm also refering to this short thread: http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=7225.0 (Especially the 2nd post/1st reply post.)
I tried to picture it and sounds a bit like a corona...
(http://thumb15.shutterstock.com.edgesuite.net/display_pic_with_logo/197467/197467,1208337905,1/stock-photo-person-looking-into-light-or-standing-in-front-of-light-looking-forward-11583238.jpg)
/EDIT
Quote from: TTso God created man, in the image of God. So one is the artist and one is the model!
Yep, I can agree with that.
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 28, 2010, 09:17:53 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 10, 2010, 12:41:32 PM
(2 Corinthians 4:4) In whom, the god of this age, hath blinded the minds of the unbelieving, to the end they may not discern the radiance of the glad–message of the glory of the Christ––who is the image of God.
(Genesis 1:27) And God created the man, in his own image, In the image of God, created he, him,––Male and female, created he, them.
So both the first and second Adam are created in the image of God.
Take a good look at the blue parts.....
Son is the image of Father.
Son=Image
We are created in the image of Father.
We are created in the Son of Father.
:thumbsup: Jesus is the template for us. [now you know why Satan was so upset.]
...Adam..., who is the figure of him that was to come.
--Rom 5:14
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 28, 2010, 12:14:12 PM
TT, all,
I'm also refering to this short thread: http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=7225.0 (Especially the 2nd/1st reply post.)
I tried to picture it and sounds abit like a corona...
(http://thumb15.shutterstock.com.edgesuite.net/display_pic_with_logo/197467/197467,1208337905,1/stock-photo-person-looking-into-light-or-standing-in-front-of-light-looking-forward-11583238.jpg)
wow We finally get to see what you look like, ww. :Sparkletooth:
YLTMark 14
62 and Jesus said, `I am; and ye shall see the Son of Man sitting on the right hand of the power, and coming with the clouds, of the heaven.'
YLTRevelation 3
21 He who is overcoming--I will give to him to sit with me in my throne, as I also did overcome and did sit down with my Father in His throne.
Jesus sits at the right hand (=place of honor) of Father.
But we sit on the same spot as Jesus.
Do we 'sit in Jesus'?
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 28, 2010, 02:32:18 PM
YLTMark 14
62 and Jesus said, `I am; and ye shall see the Son of Man sitting on the right hand of the power, and coming with the clouds, of the heaven.'
YLTRevelation 3
21 He who is overcoming--I will give to him to sit with me in my throne, as I also did overcome and did sit down with my Father in His throne.
Jesus sits at the right hand (=place of honor) of Father.
But we sit on the same spot as Jesus.
Do we 'sit in Jesus'?
[to sit]
"with" [me]
G3326
μετά
metamet-ah'
A primary preposition (often used adverbially);
properly denoting accompaniment;
"amid" (local or causal); modified variously according to the case (genitive case association, or accusative case succession) with which it is joined; occupying an intermediate position between G575 or G1537 and G1519 or G4314; less intimate than G1722, and less close than G4862): - after (-ward),X that he again, against, among, X and, + follow, hence, hereafter, in, of, (up-) on, + our, X and setting, since, (un-) to, + together, when, with (+ -out). Often used in composition, in substantially the same relations of participation or proximity, and transfer or sequence.
[sitting]
"on" [the right hand of the power]
G1537
εκ, εξ
ek exek, ex
A primary preposition
denoting origin (the point whence motion or action proceeds), from, out (of place, time or cause; literally or figuratively; direct or remote): - after, among, X are, at betwixt (-yond), by (the means of), exceedingly, (+ abundantly above), for (-th), from (among, forth, up), + grudgingly, + heartily, X heavenly, X hereby, + very highly, in, . . . ly, (because, by reason) of, off (from), on, out among (from, of), over, since, X thenceforth, through, X unto, X vehemently, with (-out). Often used in composition, with the same general import;
often of completion.Stick out your right hand, ww. Are you his right hand man?
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 28, 2010, 02:32:18 PM
YLTMark 14
62 and Jesus said, `I am; and ye shall see the Son of Man sitting on the right hand of the power, and coming with the clouds, of the heaven.'
YLTRevelation 3
21 He who is overcoming--I will give to him to sit with me in my throne, as I also did overcome and did sit down with my Father in His throne.
Jesus sits at the right hand (=place of honor) of Father.
But we sit on the same spot as Jesus.
Do we 'sit in Jesus'?
Matthew 20:23
And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father
Quote from: Molly on September 28, 2010, 01:25:50 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 28, 2010, 09:17:53 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 10, 2010, 12:41:32 PM
(2 Corinthians 4:4) In whom, the god of this age, hath blinded the minds of the unbelieving, to the end they may not discern the radiance of the glad–message of the glory of the Christ––who is the image of God.
(Genesis 1:27) And God created the man, in his own image, In the image of God, created he, him,––Male and female, created he, them.
So both the first and second Adam are created in the image of God.
Take a good look at the blue parts.....
Son is the image of Father.
Son=Image
We are created in the image of Father.
We are created in the Son of Father.
:thumbsup: Jesus is the template for us. [now you know why Satan was so upset.]
...Adam..., who is the figure of him that was to come.
--Rom 5:14
Hebrews 1:3
Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express
image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
TT, I hope you wash your feet before you die because I don't want to spent eternity smelling your feet on that throne :footmouth:
:icon_king:
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 28, 2010, 10:48:34 PM
TT, I hope you wash your feet before you die because I don't want to spent eternity smelling your feet on that throne :footmouth:
:icon_king:
Your too humble, placing me above you, it is the father who places the positions of authority and no doubt the disciples will be the ones sitting next to Jesus, while the rest of us will be part of the huge crowd. That crowd must be gigantic, they must have a big stadium in heaven :mshock: I hope they don't call us one by one like the do in graduation days, otherwise we could be there for eternity :happygrin:
Quote from: thinktank on September 28, 2010, 10:48:16 PM
Quote from: Molly on September 28, 2010, 01:25:50 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 28, 2010, 09:17:53 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 10, 2010, 12:41:32 PM
(2 Corinthians 4:4) In whom, the god of this age, hath blinded the minds of the unbelieving, to the end they may not discern the radiance of the glad–message of the glory of the Christ––who is the image of God.
(Genesis 1:27) And God created the man, in his own image, In the image of God, created he, him,––Male and female, created he, them.
So both the first and second Adam are created in the image of God.
Take a good look at the blue parts.....
Son is the image of Father.
Son=Image
We are created in the image of Father.
We are created in the Son of Father.
:thumbsup: Jesus is the template for us. [now you know why Satan was so upset.]
...Adam..., who is the figure of him that was to come.
--Rom 5:14
Hebrews 1:3
Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
1God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
--Hebrews 1
This says he is speaking to us by his Son in the last days. That's right according to the context. But, in a more general context, it could also be read--he is speaking to us through sonship.
Hath in these last days spoken unto us by
"uihos"G5207
υιός
uihoshwee-os'
Apparently a primary word;
a "son" (sometimes of animals), used very widely of immediate, remote or figurative
kinship: - child, foal,
son.
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 28, 2010, 02:32:18 PM
YLTMark 14
62 and Jesus said, `I am; and ye shall see the Son of Man sitting on the right hand of the power, and coming with the clouds, of the heaven.'
YLTRevelation 3
21 He who is overcoming--I will give to him to sit with me in my throne, as I also did overcome and did sit down with my Father in His throne.
Jesus sits at the right hand (=place of honor) of Father.
But we sit on the same spot as Jesus.
Do we 'sit in Jesus'?
:cloud9: Right hand = place of ring of authority of the King. Ring is a seal or signet ring, used to seal an image into a clay tablet (book or letter), and was used to purchase land in the authority of the King.
Christ sits on the right hand of the Father and is what seals us in our forehead, purchases us, transforms us into His image. Blessings....
Quote from: thinktank on September 28, 2010, 10:40:15 PMMatthew 20:23 And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father
:cloud9: And it was.....Elijah and Moses.....
Quote from: Amie on September 05, 2008, 06:40:58 PM
Hi all,
I'm hoping that you'll forgive my not going through every post with a fine toothed comb. Just being three pages, this thread is LONG when I just came on the scene. That said, I would like to throw in my two cents along with all of this fantastic exchange.
Personally, I find it important to understand the culture and thinking of the people who wrote the passages. Ancient Hebrews thought concretely. This means that if they could not personally relate to it through the senses (touch, taste, smell, see - or relationally via the heart) that it was rare that they considered it - if at all. The concepts that are often applied to the bible, are abstract and that can lead to a great deal of misunderstanding.
For example, the word translated "image" is "tselem" and it literally means "shadow". Translators often interpret as they earnestly try to convey the story as they understand it. A "shadow" is concrete and relational where as a conceptual "image" is not. The Hebrews therefore will have seen this as a shadow cast by a care-taker... like a shepard over his sheep, or a father over his children. If you have children, peek in on them tonight and see the shadow that you cast -- that is the image in which humanity was created.
Another example from an article I wrote titled "Why Hebrew?":
QuoteExodus 34 14 For you shall not bow to another god, for Jehovah whose name is Jealous, He is a jealous God;
This may not sound like a God of love to us. Jealousy is such an "ugly green emotion". This sounds as if God is inconsistant and not the same, from now, and forever. A glimpse into what the Ancient Hebrew writer meant, when he chose such a word, will clear things up.
"Jealous" is the Hebrew "QaNA". Some very ancient writing sheds some insight in how they understood that word. It was written in picture form, like Egyptian heiroglyph. Each symbol, which in our modern alphabet are letters, had meaning.
"Q", the symbol for a rising and setting sun.. To the Hebrew people, the sun gathered the light to it at sunset, and the dark to it at dawn. The rising and setting sun was understood as circling the earth. The meaning of the symbol is "the circling sun which causes the gathering of light and darkness".
Seeds were understood to be the beginning of life from a parent plant, in a continuous, generational cycle. The meaning of the symbol for seed is "a continuation of life from a seed", pronounced "N".
Together, the seed placed before the rising sun, their meaning is "The gathering of materials for the building of a nest for the seeds (eggs)", pronounced "QeN".
"QaNA"/"Jealous" is written with a bull's head (symbol for strength), and then the seed and sun symbols.
When the symbols are combined, we can better understand the communication offered by the author in Exodus 34:14. It is the visual of a bird watching over the eggs and young with "jealousy" (the action, not an emotion), defending them from the enemy, preventing any other bird from entering the nest.
Just as a bird watches over and protects its' nest from predetors, so does God watch over and protect his children from predetors.
Again a word, in this case "jealousy" being removed from being understood abstractly, can offer richness in our understanding what the original authors are trying to communicate.
"Likeness" ("demuth") is "similitude". Hebrews could see that dogs had offspring after their kind, goats after their kind, and people after their kind. How could human beings be children of God if they were made of flesh and related to the world through that flesh? I think first there was a magnification of the perspective of flesh - through the Mosaic Law. Then there was the revelation of Jesus as he contrasted the flesh understanding of the law with a spiritual understanding. It demonstrated not necessarily an err of humanity, but a short sightedness.
"Spirit" mind you, was not removed and abstract either. It is experienced in the heart and is that which flows forth from it. Like, a lying person had a "spirit of falsehood" and a generous person had a "giving spirit". There is an overarching "Spirit of God" and God is defined as "love".
God promised Israel that if she could keep her end of a deal, that she would be "Kings" (having authority - which they will have seen as God himself in them) and "Priests", not to herself, but to others. She fell short, again bringing to light a short sightedness inherant in every human being. Jesus kept her part on her behalf, he having "eyes to see". She inherited what was promised and so the entire world was given a new sight - the old world having passed away.
As humanity had been in the likeness of "Adam" (flesh and blood thinking..see Romans 8:6 for example per "mind of flesh") it would have life in the likeness of the "last Adam", becoming as a "heavenly man" and a "new creation".
Since the truth is revealed, that is accomplished - Jesus has come to us, God is "all in all" -- but again, I'm just throwing my two cents in, I'm not formulating an argument. This is my view as I see it - you sure don't have to :-).
Amie
:cloud9: Don't know where I was 9/5/08 when Amie wrote this, but I missed it.....until now. Amie, if you're around, AWESOME POST. :thumbsup: Blessings....
Quote from: Cardinal on September 29, 2010, 03:29:59 AM
Quote from: thinktank on September 28, 2010, 10:40:15 PMMatthew 20:23 And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father
:cloud9: And it was.....Elijah and Moses.....
Where does the Bible teach this?
Amen Card. I read that last night.
Interesting to note that while most of the "church world" is so anxious to fly away to heaven they are ignoring the fact that the Lord is calling us to be His priests.
The law and prophecy stand on either side of the Christ.
... in the light !
Quote from: micah7:9 on September 29, 2010, 05:06:47 AM
Quote from: Cardinal on September 29, 2010, 03:29:59 AM
Quote from: thinktank on September 28, 2010, 10:40:15 PMMatthew 20:23 And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father
:cloud9: And it was.....Elijah and Moses.....
Where does the Bible teach this?
3Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with Jesus. -Mat 17
Something to chew on. Thanks
just want to add . .I think Card is really on to something with this, so long as we don't put too much emphasis on these guys as bodies of flesh . . .I think it's WAY much more about the fact that they signify the law and the prophets . . they were the other two elements IN the ark of the covenant. Stone tablets (law) Aarons rod that budded (spirit/prophets) and the manna (Christ). I believe THAT is why they appeared at the mount of transfiguration. God was revealing is innermost heart that day by showing the disciples . .only three of the twelve, those who were closest to Jesus were enabled to see this . . . but the Father was showing the disciples that he was bringing healing back to his broken heart.
The three elements had been separated ever since Israel lost the ark to the Philistines way back when Samuel was just coming into his role as Israel's last judge. When Eli, his prophetical predicessor fell of whatever it was he was setting on and the weight of his own fat snapped his neck . . . his disrespectful sons, who were also priests, died that day, they lost the battle they were fighting, they lost the ark that they worshiped so much as well. And since that day, the only thing that returned when the ark came back was the stone tablets. The life/spirit and the manna were removed and all they had to live by from then on was the hard, cold law.
"That's" what God was showing to Peter, James and John . . .he was healing his heart with man once again.
Peter, James and John
Faith, Hope and Love
Ha . . . and the one who was known to be closest to Jesus??? Patterns are AWESOME!!
:cloud9: Amen, yes they are :thumbsup:
That's where we rest our head — closest to His heart.
Jacob's ladder is a pattern of this . . .when he came to "the place" he laid his head upon the rock and the heavens opened up to him.