Genesis - In our image

[Molly]

God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

Jeremiah 23:6
In his days, Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.

[joyful1]

So Molly, looking at one of the scriptures quoted by SOTW you have another example of your "Book" being the complete story....

2 Corinthians 5:1-10
Now we know that if the earthly tent [earthly body] we live in is destroyed, we have a building [spiritual body] from God, an eternal house [spiritual body] in heaven, not built by human hands. Meanwhile we groan, longing to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling [spiritual body], because when we are clothed, we will not be found naked.

1--In the garden, the man and the woman hid themselves when they discovered that they were naked--

2--God gave them animal skins to wear at that point (*symbolic of the animal sacrafices to come for righteousness and eventually a picture of the Lamb that was slain for them at the cross; Jesus)

3--And eventually the man/woman will be clothed in the spiritual body!

Joyce :)

[Craig]

So Molly, looking at one of the scriptures quoted by SOTW you have another example of your "Book" being the complete story....

Hello Joyce,

What does 'your "Book"' mean?

[Molly]

So Molly, looking at one of the scriptures quoted by SOTW you have another example of your "Book" being the complete story....

2 Corinthians 5:1-10
Now we know that if the earthly tent [earthly body] we live in is destroyed, we have a building [spiritual body] from God, an eternal house [spiritual body] in heaven, not built by human hands. Meanwhile we groan, longing to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling [spiritual body], because when we are clothed, we will not be found naked.

1--In the garden, the man and the woman hid themselves when they discovered that they were naked--

2--God gave them animal skins to wear at that point (*symbolic of the animal sacrafices to come for righteousness and eventually a picture of the Lamb that was slain for them at the cross; Jesus)

3--And eventually the man/woman will be clothed in the spiritual body!

Joyce :)

Nice.  :thumbsup:

These themes of nakedness and clothing run all through the Bible.  There is a scripture which talks of putting on righteousness as a garment.

Maybe that's why earthly priests try so hard to look decorative--they think it's literal.

Job29:14
I put on righteousness, and it clothed me: my judgment was as a robe and a diadem.

[Pleroo]

And, yet, we know that Adam, not being deceived, knew he would die.  Adam made a decision, but was it the wrong one?


20For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.
--Romans 8

Are you saying that Adam knowingly and willingly subjected creation to sin?  That he was somehow "in" on God's plan?

[Craig]

Are you saying that Adam knowingly and willingly subjected creation to sin?  That he was somehow "in" on God's plan?

According to Scripture, that is exactly what happened. This takes some patience in understanding. Regardless if the desired outcome came of the actions, both Adam and Eve ate willingly of the Tree of Knowledge. They ate willingly not knowing exactly what was going to happen. What happened was not what they desired, but they willingly ate none-the-less. No person makes a wrong choice unwillingly, regardless of the  consequence being not what they wanted, everyone thinks the choice they make is the right choice or else they never would have done it.

Knowledge is not a prerequisite to a willful choice. Many people make choices willingly without knowing what that choice will bring. It is only regret of their choice is when they say falsely, that is not what they chose when in fact that is exactly what the chose. If they knew what would happen, they never would have made that choice but because they are foolish, ignorant, inept, etc in their choices they willfully bring upon themselves whatever consequence that choice brings.

Sin, death, life, etc. are all part of God's plan whether a person knows it or not. Therefore whatever a person does has always been part of God's plan.

[martincisneros]

20For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.
--Romans 8

I personally believe that this passage of Scripture is talking about Jesus after the resurrection, because He didn't immediately make all things right with the Creation after His resurrection, and as the next 3 chapters bare out He didn't immediately make all things right with Israel.  But He subjected us all in hope to the Gospel when He said to go into all of the world and preach the Gospel to every single creature.  (I guess all married creatures would be included too. :icon_jokercolor:) Those that believe are liberated from their bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God, while those that don't believe aren't immediately enjoying the benefit of His redemptive work but continue in their subjection to frustration, according to, while at the same time not by their choice, 'cause who with a sound mind ever wishes such evils upon themselves as befall the unbeliever in this life.  But the whole creation groans and travails, in the next verse, which evidently means that they're all still called according to His purposes even if they don't love God yet, as the next 3 chapters in Romans explain.  Nothing can ever separate a single one, or a married one, of God's creatures from His love in Christ Jesus our Lord, and the God of peace will crush Satan under the feet of every creature very soon, whether human, animal, or other. 

The creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.  The New Jerusalem will have no need of the sun, but that doesn't mean the sun won't exist 'cause it's a part of the beauty of God's Creation and it's one of the hymn singers of the heavens that delights in His praise.  All of life [on earth] will simply be God-powered rather than Solar-powered as we have at present with how plants feed themselves and all of the other phenomenon of nature works out in our daily lives.  The plants won't need the processes of the sun upon the wind and upon the sea for the plants to receive their dew, but the Presence of God in fullness will quench the thirst of every plant and of every other form of life on earth, just as it currently is that way in heaven.  Outside of the New Jerusalem, whose gates aren't ever locked, are still at that time some forms of life that the Spirit and the Bride will have to say to them "Come and take of the water of life freely!"  They've been subjected to futility, but they will leave their bondage to decay and enter into the liberties of the children of God 'cause that's the hope of Christ; the joy that was set before Him through which He endured the Cross, despising it's accompanying shame, and has sat down at the right hand of God expecting (i.e. in hope...) as the last Adam.

[joyful1]

SOTW--see Molly's earlier comments about the whole Book--the whole Bible.
Joyce :)

[Pleroo]

Are you saying that Adam knowingly and willingly subjected creation to sin?  That he was somehow "in" on God's plan?

According to Scripture, that is exactly what happened. This takes some patience in understanding. Regardless if the desired outcome came of the actions, both Adam and Eve ate willingly of the Tree of Knowledge. They ate willingly not knowing exactly what was going to happen.

Okay, thanks.  :) 

But I was asking Molly to clarify for me if she believes that scripture she quoted indicates that Adam ate willing of the tree KNOWING what the outcome would be because he was aware of God's ultimate plan.  I had never considered that possibility (I have assumed that passage was referring to God's willingness to subject the creation to frustration) and it caught my interest.

[Craig]

Adam would not have hid, if he had known the plan.

Now sybolically, the First Adam is the shadow of the Second. In which the Second Adam, Jesus Christ, knew exactly the plan of the Father and willingly laid down his life to save the whole world.

[AJ]

.
Genesis 1:26
And God said, Let us make man in our 'image', after our 'likeness': and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. 

1:27
So God created man in his own 'image', in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
================

Notice that in verse 26 - God's plan was to create man in both 'image' and 'likness'.
But then when God did create man (verse 27),  it states - man was only in image and NOT likeness of God.

I believe the 'likeness' (could not / would not) take place until Christ died and at that time mankind was capable of being brought into God's 'likeness' through salvation of the 'new man'.


AJ

[Nathan]

Adam would not have hid, if he had known the plan.

Now sybolically, the First Adam is the shadow of the Second. In which the Second Adam, Jesus Christ, knew exactly the plan of the Father and willingly laid down his life to save the whole world.

For me, the emphasis isn't on Adam as much as it is on the redemptive work of Christ.  In which case, if it happened before the foundation of the world, then Adam was redeemed before he fell, jumped, what-have-you.  The hiding didn't come from Adam knowing ahead of time, it came from eating of the tree of knowledge which illuminates shame and guilt, which results in fear from the very one giving you the redemption.  It's the veil.  In man's eyes, he fell, in God's eyes, he did what he was supposed to do.  Again, it's not about Adam, it's about manifesting the redemptive power and glory of Christ . . the only way that could happen the way it did was for Adam to be in a state where redemption was required.

Only Eve was decieved.  Whether Adam knew what he was doing or not is only a side-note at best.  It's interesting to think about, but the overall purpose was to begin the process of life on earth so Christ could make his entrance, bringing glory to the Father, and the Father could bring glory to his Son.

[Craig]

Yes only Eve was deceived. Adam was not deceived, he purposely broke the commandment knowing it was disobedience. He still had no understanding of what just occurred but at the same time he ashamed and guilty before God.

When I was a child, I would purposely disobey my parents and when caught, was ashamed and guilty for my disobedience. Doesn't mean I was afraid of punishment, or a beating, usually it was because I knew I disrespected my parents who had care enough to tell me what is beneficial and what is not.

A person who doesn't feel shame or guilt when they do wrong, is one who is not aware that they did anything wrong, or do not believe they did nothing wrong and therefore are deceived in themselves.

[Nathan]

Who told you, you were naked?  God isn't the one casting blame and shame, it is our carnal thinking that convinces us there must be a right and a wrong, a black and a white . . . Jesus didn't establish that.  We always want to put the emphasis in the places that justify ourselves.  I still do it at times without even realizing it.  But in the spirit, there is really very little, if any awareness of the rightness or wrongness of self or others.  Because to do so, is to ignore the power of the cross in these areas. 

The light of truth really is blinding.  It brings blindness to the guilt, shame, sin, failures and faults, condemnation . . .all that religious jargon has no hold on us. 

[Craig]

1 Peter 2:15-17
For it is God's will that by doing good you should silence the ignorant talk of foolish men. Live as free men, but do not use your freedom as a cover-up for evil; live as servants of God. Show proper respect to everyone: Love the brotherhood of believers, fear God, honor the king.

Scripture does not say alone, "Who told you, you were naked?"

It says, And He said, "Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree that I commanded you not to eat from?"
- Genesis 3:11

Romans 1:28-32
Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. ...Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.

Were the naked or were they not, Nathan?

Yes, regardless of the knowledge of the nakedness, they were still naked whether they knew it or not!

Knowledge did not change the fact that they were created naked, the awareness that they were naked did not make them naked. They were naked already, but became aware of the fact that they were naked the moment they disobeyed God and eaten of the tree which He commanded them not to eat from.

1 Timothy 1:8-11
We know that the law is good if one uses it properly. We also know that law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious; for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, for adulterers and perverts, for slave traders and liars and perjurers—and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine that conforms to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which he entrusted to me.

It is carnal thinking to disobey the knowledge of the Truth; it is not carnal thinking to know the difference between good and evil.

Hebrews 5:11-14
We have much to say about this, but it is hard to explain because you are slow to learn. In fact, though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you the elementary truths of God's word all over again. You need milk, not solid food! Anyone who lives on milk, being still an infant, is not acquainted with the teaching about righteousness. But solid food is for the mature, who by constant use have trained themselves to distinguish good from evil.

The knowledge of good and evil, is not carnal thinking, it is righteousness. Those who are mature in Christ, have been trained to distinguish good from evil.

1 Timothy 4:6-7
In pointing out these things to the brethren, you will be a good servant of Christ Jesus, constantly nourished on the words of the faith and of the sound doctrine which you have been following. But have nothing to do with worldly fables fit only for old women On the other hand, discipline yourself for the purpose of godliness.

[Nathan]

I totally see it another way and it's not worth the argument to try to pursue this any further with you.

[Craig]

I totally see it another way and it's not worth the argument to try to pursue this any further with you.

Doesn't matter how you see it, the Scripture disagrees with you, not me. Perception is not reality, reality exists whether we see it or not.

[Nathan]

but of course

[Molly]

The knowledge of good and evil, is not carnal thinking, it is righteousness. Those who are mature in Christ, have been trained to distinguish good from evil.

I agree with this, and it's amazing to me how difficult it is to distinguish good from evil.  You would think it would be easy, but it's not.  It requires a lot of time, attention, thought, and the enlightenment of Spirit.  It requires a hunger and thirst for the truth.  It's no wonder to me how the whole world gets it wrong.


Matthew 5:6
Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they will be filled.

[Craig]

The knowledge of good and evil, is not carnal thinking, it is righteousness. Those who are mature in Christ, have been trained to distinguish good from evil.

I agree with this, and it's amazing to me how difficult it is to distinguish good from evil.  You would think it would be easy, but it's not.  It requires a lot of time, attention, thought, and the enlightenment of Spirit.  It requires a hunger and thirst for the truth.  It's no wonder to me how the whole world gets it wrong.


Matthew 5:6
Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they will be filled.

It is amazing to me who those who profess to be spiritual, and know Christ, do not know the difference between good and evil. Neither do they acquire it, or seek it out.

Hosea 14:9
Who is wise? He will realize these things. Who is discerning? He will understand them. The ways of the LORD are right; the righteous walk in them, but the rebellious stumble in them.

1 Corinthians 2:14
The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Proverbs 18:15
The heart of the discerning acquires knowledge; the ears of the wise seek it out.

Proverbs 15:14
The discerning heart seeks knowledge, but the mouth of a fool feeds on folly.

Proverbs 17:24
A discerning man keeps wisdom in view, but a fool's eyes wander to the ends of the earth.

[Pleroo]

It is amazing to me who those who profess to be spiritual, and know Christ, do not know the difference between good and evil. Neither do they acquire it, or seek it out.

But seeking it out does not mean one is able to then act on it.  That requires Jesus Christ.  So, both Nathan and SOTW make valid points ... 2 sides to the same coin.  Both ideas are necessary and edifying to speak of.  Thank you both. 

I read an interesting concept the other day.  The reason God referred to Himself in the plural in Genesis when He speaks of making man in "our" image is because He was speaking for Himself and for the one who was with Him:  Wisdom (as per Proverbs 8).  When man ate of the tree of good and evil he became not like God but "like ONE of us".  He did not become like God, he became only like wisdom, "knowing good and evil".

I think, then, that it is only eating of the Tree of Life, Jesus, and putting on the Divine nature of God which enables us to use that knowledge for good. 

[Molly]

Are you saying that Adam knowingly and willingly subjected creation to sin?  That he was somehow "in" on God's plan?

Not that he knew God's plan, so much, but that he acted like a chip off the old block.  And, he knew his Father.

I have been looking at Adam for around two years now.  I still am not sure who he is.  He is called God-man when he is in the garden.  He is called the son of God by Luke.  He is appointed to be the husbandman of God's garden.  He is a farmer like his Father.  He has the Spirit of God (breath of God) and is not deceived.

He is a very important man, the first of the line leading directly to Jesus.  This, too, is emphasized in the Bible.  He is constantly maligned by the world as a doofus who is seduced by a silly woman, giving him here, also, the respectability of persecution.

It is Adam's seed that is passed to the generations of Adam, and that seed will crush the head of the serpent.  We are told by Paul that this seed is Christ.  To my mind, this makes Adam.... the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. (Rev 13)

We know because he is earthy, of the earth, that he does fall with Eve into death.  He hides from God after eating from the tree.  Yet, Jesus is our kinsman redeemer.  Jesus is coming to save his brothers, paying their debt under the Jewish law of kinship.  There was always a family relationship here which will be revealed by the resurrected Christ--that mystery hid from ages and generations---hid in Christ until the time is ready to manifest it.


Matthew 25:40
And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

The crowds taunted Jesus while he was on the cross, Save yourself!

That is exactly what he was doing.

[Nathan]

Thus our problem, I see it that it is not my mind, but it is the word of God . . .and not just the written word, but the spirit breathing through the Word, that divides the soul from the spirit.  I don't want my mind to be left up to that decision . . . Just ask Craig .  . my mind is wrong in everything else.  I believe it's the Spirit in you that does the dividing . . .not my head.

[Molly]

Thus our problem, I see it that it is not my mind, but it is the word of God . . .and not just the written word, but the spirit breathing through the Word, that divides the soul from the spirit.  I don't want my mind to be left up to that decision . . . Just ask Craig .  . my mind is wrong in everything else.  I believe it's the Spirit in you that does the dividing . . .not my head.

Yes, but don't you have to process it through your head?

Our minds are like an armed camp surrounded by the enemy.  That is why we are told to take captive every thought, just as soldiers guarding the camp would detain and question anyone from the outside who tried to enter.

We are to have the mind of Christ.

[Craig]

It is amazing to me who those who profess to be spiritual, and know Christ, do not know the difference between good and evil. Neither do they acquire it, or seek it out.

But seeking it out does not mean one is able to then act on it. 

The issue is: Seeking out the knowledge itself of good and evil, is carnal thinking. Please do not confuse the issue for this. I oppose this idea because it is not found in experience, reason, or even Scripture, that knowledge of good and evil is carnal thinking.

The knowledge of good and evil is not carnal thinking, it is a result of carnal thinking one does not live in obedience and as a result of disobedience, one is made aware of the knowledge of evil and recognizes the knowledge of good.

Do not mistake obedience to the Law of God as righteousness. We disobey out of ignorance and are made aware of good and evil as a result; it our disobedience which is our carnality, not the knowledge of good and evil which we receive as a result.

It is by faith that God is understanding, merciful and forgiving as demonstrated by sending His Son that we are made righteous in His eyes. He has bound us all over to disobedience, because we are disobedience, so that He can have mercy over us all.

God forgiveness is not an excuse to do evil, that which we know is evil. That is excuse is the carnality of man and not the knowledge of evil. The knowledge of evil is what recognizes this excuse to be the carnality of man.

Neither is fear of God's punishment an excuse to do good, that which we know is good. That excuse is the carnality of man and not the knowledge of good. It is the knowledge of good that recognizes this excuse to be the carnality of man

Let me repeat.

Doing evil because we are under mercy, grace and forgiveness, is carnality.
Doing good because we are punished and disciplined if we don't, is carnality.

We do good because it is the good thing to do, and should we fail, He is faithful to forgive us. However, If we continue to live in their carnal nature, whether doing good or evil, we shall suffer the consequences for the deeds we do, whether good or evil.

This is my verdict: Anytime I see anyone dispose of knowledge, proclaiming it to be evil, do so because they want to remain in ignorance. They are the ones living out of their carnality because they do not want knowledge to expose that which they might be doing and expose them to possible guilt and shame. They do not want to know that their deeds are evil.

John 3:19-21
This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God."

Knowledge is the Light which brings responsibility and accountability to a person's life so that they can learn from their mistakes, be strong under any circumstance, and make good decisions in their life.

This is carnality at it's apex, fear of making a mistake, being weak in a situation, and making a wrong decision in the life. It is carnality which wants to be free of responsibility and accountability concerning one's mistakes, weaknesses and wrong decisions.

Those who live by the Spirit come boldly into the light and are not afraid to be seen plainly and have their evil deeds exposed in order that they can rid themselves of the evil they did not know existed, this is the work of God in their lives. That is why those who live by the Spirit die daily to self, in our weakness are we made strong in Christ.

1 Peter 2:15-17
For it is God's will that by doing good you should silence the ignorant talk of foolish men. Live as free men, but do not use your freedom as a cover-up for evil; live as servants of God. Show proper respect to everyone: Love the brotherhood of believers, fear God, honor the king.