Did Jesus die

[VineBranch]

I believe Jesus had to be glorified before He could receive the "Spirit without measure".

Then from where came the power to raise Himself?

[reFORMer]

I believe Jesus had to be glorified before He could receive the "Spirit without measure".

Then from where came the power to raise Himself?

What!  Don't you know?  Didn't He tell you yet?

[VineBranch]

Then from where came the power to raise Himself?

What!  Don't you know?  Didn't He tell you yet?

I'm going to assume you are at your badinage again. lol.

My questions then is this.

Eagle said, "Jesus was given the power to take up His life. That power is the Spirit of God."  So, He needs the Spirit of God to take up His life.

The he said, "I believe Jesus had to be glorified before He could receive the 'Spirit without measure'.  Thats why He had to go before the Spirit could 'come upon us'.

But Jesus died and was resurrected before He was glorified, so He didn't have the Spirit, or power, to take up His life.  So, from whence cameth that power then?

[reFORMer]

Then from where came the power to raise Himself?

What!  Don't you know?  Didn't He tell you yet?

I'm going to assume you are at your badinage again. lol.

My questions then is this.

Eagle said, "Jesus was given the power to take up His life. That power is the Spirit of God."  So, He needs the Spirit of God to take up His life.

The he said, "I believe Jesus had to be glorified before He could receive the 'Spirit without measure'.  Thats why He had to go before the Spirit could 'come upon us'.

But Jesus died and was resurrected before He was glorified, so He didn't have the Spirit, or power, to take up His life.  So, from whence cameth that power then?

John 3³⁴ (KJV) says "...God gives not the spirit by measure unto him."  "Unto him" is added by the translators.  What's more, God doesn't give the spirit "in part" to us.  "Where there is any of God there is all of God."  It is the nature of the Spirit to be altogether God with all the attributes of Deity where ever he is.  It is the Spirit and not just a piece of Him.  When He dwells within us it is really the Spirit Himself Who is present.

Jesus left His body and in spirit went to hades and preached to the dead.  He raised from the dead triumphant, ascending to sit in God's throne with Him, somewhere along the way obtaining the keys to death and hades.

1 Peter 3^17-22, CLV...
17 For it is better to be suffering for doing good, if the will of God may be willing, than for doing evil,
18 seeing that Christ also, for our sakes, once died concerning sins, the just for the sake of the unjust, that He may be leading us to God; being put to death, indeed, in flesh, yet vivified in spirit,
19 in which, being gone to the spirits in jail also,
20 He heralds to those once stubborn, when the patience of God awaited in the days of Noah while the ark was being constructed, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were brought safely through water,
21 the representation of which, baptism, is now saving you also (not the putting off of the filth of the flesh, but the inquiry of a good conscience to God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
22 Who is at God's right hand, being gone into heaven, messengers and authorities and powers being subjected to Him.


1 Peter 4⁶, CLV...
6 For for this an evangel is brought to the dead also, that they may be judged, indeed, according to men in flesh, yet should be living according to God, in spirit.

The KJV says...
4:6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

[sheila]

   the last Adam became a quickening spirit.     I AM THE RESURRECTION

[eaglesway]

I did not at any time say that Jesus did not have the spirit before He was glorified.

I said He did not receive the Spirit "without measure" until He was glorified.

The scripture clearly says this,

He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)    (Joh 7:38-39)


and

Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
(Act 2:33)

Jesus walked in "a measure" of the anointing in His days on the earth.

He received from His Father AUTHORITY to take up His life and the Spirit of resurrection enabled Him to exercise that authority(the keys to sheol and death). It was this authority that was the key to His resurrection.

IMO, He was not, "The fulness of Godhead in bodily form" until after He was glorified. Nor did He receive the "spirit without measure" until after He was glorified, but He had plenty of Holy Ghost all over Him. It was given to Him, however in stages.

These three stages coincide with three stages of our discipleship.



Stage one Jesus: At Birth (the Holy Spirit overshadows Mary and she conceives, a Son is born)

Jesus was born with a measure of the Spirit. So was John the Baptist, who was filled with the Spirit from his mothers womb.

Stage One us: Begotten of God by the word of truth, Spirit hovers over the waters formless and void, let there be light, word implanted, spirit of resurection. We receive a measure of the Spirit whenever we believe.

Stage two: Baptism(Jesus anointed for service)

Stage two us: The Holy Spirit Baptism is an anointing for service, an additional strength(strengthened with might by His SPirit in the inner man) IMO this should happen right away, as it did in the Acts church- but do to the weakened gospel we preach there is a weakened "manifestation".

Stage three: Glorification after crucifixion and resurrection(Jesus anointed High Priest/Intercessor for all men.)

Stage three us: Priests of the most high God, Ministers of reconciliation, Martyrs for Christ Glorified to reign and inherit all things in Him(First resurrection, a kingdom of priests reigning a thousand years)

IMO this is the aonointing of the overcomers, the matured sons, the finished disiples, the "well done" sacrifices(every sacrifice will be salted with fire- "well done"....... get it?  :laugh:)

Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
(Act 2:33)

[eaglesway]

I did not at any time say that Jesus did not have the spirit before He was glorified.

I said He did not receive the Spirit "without measure" until He was glorified.

The scripture clearly says this,

He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)    (Joh 7:38-39)


and

Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
(Act 2:33)

Jesus walked in "a measure" of the anointing in His days on the earth.

He received from His Father AUTHORITY to take up His life and the Spirit of resurrection enabled Him to exercise that authority(the keys to sheol and death). It was this authority that was the key to His resurrection. He still did not yet have the "Spirit without measure".

IMO, He was not, "The fulness of Godhead in bodily form" until after He was glorified. Nor did He receive the "spirit without measure" until after He was glorified, but He had plenty of Holy Ghost all over Him. It was given to Him, however in stages.

These three stages coincide with three stages of our discipleship.



Stage one Jesus: At Birth (the Holy Spirit overshadows Mary and she conceives, a Son is born)

Jesus was born with a measure of the Spirit. So was John the Baptist, who was filled with the Spirit from his mothers womb.

Stage One us: Begotten of God by the word of truth, Spirit hovers over the waters formless and void, let there be light, word implanted, spirit of resurection. We receive a measure of the Spirit whenever we believe.

Stage two: Baptism(Jesus anointed for service)

Stage two us: The Holy Spirit Baptism is an anointing for service, an additional strength(strengthened with might by His SPirit in the inner man) IMO this should happen right away, as it did in the Acts church- but do to the weakened gospel we preach there is a weakened "manifestation".

Stage three: Glorification after crucifixion and resurrection(Jesus anointed High Priest/Intercessor for all men.)

Stage three us: Priests of the most high God, Ministers of reconciliation, Martyrs for Christ Glorified to reign and inherit all things in Him(First resurrection, a kingdom of priests reigning a thousand years)

IMO this is the aonointing of the overcomers, the matured sons, the finished disiples, the "well done" sacrifices(every sacrifice will be salted with fire- "well done"....... get it?  :laugh:)

Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
(Act 2:33)

[micah7:9]

I believe Jesus had the full measure from His first breath in the world. Perhaps it grew from learning obedience but it was the full measure. :dsunny:

[eaglesway]

Well, I guess those verses don't really matter, jus go on and believe whatever. :o)

[eaglesway]

Jesus learned obedience through the things that He suffered. IMO, He grew through His manhood into His Godhead.

[micah7:9]

Well, I guess those verses don't really matter, jus go on and believe whatever. :o)

The verses mean much and filled with truth, but as I am informed often, that one has an opinion of such things :o)

[eaglesway]

Mind you, I am not saying He wasnt God in the first place, but how could God learn to be one of us unless He experienced it all just as we do, in the weakness of flesh- only His faith given to Him until He had overcome, and then restored to Godhead.

John 17:5  And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

Php 2:5-11 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

1Ti 3:16 And great and important and weighty, we confess, is the hidden truth (the mystic secret) of godliness. He [ God] was made visible in human flesh, justified and vindicated in the [Holy] Spirit, was seen by angels, preached among the nations, believed on in the world, [and] taken up in glory. Amp


Heb 5:1-10  For every high priest taken from among men is appointed on behalf of men in things pertaining to God, in order to offer both gifts and sacrifices for sins; he can deal gently with the ignorant and misguided, since he himself also is beset with weakness; and because of it he is obligated to offer sacrifices for sins, as for the people, so also for himself. And no one takes the honor to himself, but receives it when he is called by God, even as Aaron was. So also Christ did not glorify Himself so as to become a high priest, but He who said to Him, "YOU ARE MY SON, TODAY I HAVE BEGOTTEN YOU"; just as He says also in another passage, "YOU ARE A PRIEST FOREVER ACCORDING TO THE ORDER OF MELCHIZEDEK." In the days of His flesh, He offered up both prayers and supplications with loud crying and tears to the One able to save Him from death, and He was heard because of His piety. Although He was a Son, He learned obedience from the things which He suffered. And having been made perfect, He became to all those who obey Him the source of eternal salvation, being designated by God as a high priest according to the order of Melchizedek.

Oh My Lord Jesus- We may disagree about how you have done what you have done in the details, but Lord we are all united in DECLARING YOUR GLORY, and our ENDLESS GRATITUDE to you for taking upon yourself the limits of our estate, and sacrificing your life to BRING US INTO YOURS. Thank You My Lord and My God, and Thank You Father, the God of My Lord Jesus- Praises glory and honor to You in the GREAT ASSEMBLY now and into the misty future, Amen.

[ded2daworld]

Micah, EW, stop! you're both right. :laughing7:
IMO, The omniscient God knows everything. When Abraham was about to put the knife in Isaac, God said, NOW I KNOW, talking about intellectual knowledge versus experiential knowledge. God knew beforehand what Abraham would do, just as he knew beforehand that Jesus would succeed as saviour. It was the experiences that gave God the experiential knowledge that previously he knew intellectually.
When God became flesh, he withheld a part of his omniscience (only the father knows on what day I will return) but was not half man half God like Hercules or other myths. He was fully God and Fully human. :Peace2:

[micah7:9]

 :trampoline:

[eaglesway]

1 Timothy 3:16
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

IMO, He was limited to His humanity while on the earth, so that His victory could become our victory. As fully God, He would have no challenge in this world, so He was fully man while in His incarnation- trusting God and walking in the Spirit by faith- His godhead set aside until His resurrection.

:o)

[VineBranch]

I did not at any time say that Jesus did not have the spirit before He was glorified.
I said He did not receive the Spirit "without measure" until He was glorified.

So, obviously you don't need the whole thing to do some things.  How much spirit do you need to raise yourself then.  Half full?  Three quarters full?  If you don't need the full thing, can you get away with maybe a quart?  Can you be down a quart and still raise yourself?  Inquiring minds need to know this stuff.

[eaglesway]

Well, if Jesus was fully godified they could have driven ails in Him all day and He just woulda laughed it off.

In the limits of His flesh He was killed, murdered, died.

You couldnt kill Him now, thats for sure. If He stood right in front of you He could absorb the eergy of your hydroge bomb and smile and forgive you so- there is definitely a difference between Jesus on earth pre glorification and Jesus post resurrection and ascension.

That difference is that He is the fulness of the Godhead in bodily form, He has the "Spirit without measure".  That means infinite omniscient omnipotent supply of the Spirit.

A little common sense and a few verses of scripture is all it takes to see that He was not so in the weakness He was subjected to(willingly) during the days of His flesh.

[VineBranch]

Well, if Jesus was fully godified they could have driven ails in Him all day and He just woulda laughed it off.

In the limits of His flesh He was killed, murdered, died.

You couldnt kill Him now, thats for sure. If He stood right in front of you He could absorb the eergy of your hydroge bomb and smile and forgive you so- there is definitely a difference between Jesus on earth pre glorification and Jesus post resurrection and ascension.

That difference is that He is the fulness of the Godhead in bodily form, He has the "Spirit without measure".  That means infinite omniscient omnipotent supply of the Spirit.

A little common sense and a few verses of scripture is all it takes to see that He was not so in the weakness He was subjected to(willingly) during the days of His flesh.

Okay.  But are you saying that he couldn't have prevented them from driving nails in his hand (I think wrist) if he had choosen not to let them?

I don't mean to sound obtuse, but is the result of being filled (sorry no other words seems to work) with the spirit beyond measure the same as , or confirmed by, getting a superman kind of body?

[eaglesway]

No, I am not pinpointing details at all :o) I am saying that a great change took place between when Jesus was crucified and when He was glorified.

Phil 2 and Heb 5 clearly speak of the weakness of His flesh in His mortal days.

No such weakness exists now- He is God in Essence, Title and Power and is the fountainhead of the Holy Spirit.

In my world it is the testimony of the scriptures that matter.

[VineBranch]

No, I am not pinpointing details at all :o) I am saying that a great change took place between when Jesus was crucified and when He was glorified.

Ahhhh.  I concur wholeheartedly.  The resurrected Jesus was different.  There's a moral here somewhere, but for the life of me I just seem to find it.  :laugh:

[eaglesway]

The moral is.................duh..............uh..........oh yeah, its past my bedtime! HAHAHAHAHAHA

[Molly]

It's a different body for sure.  But, I think he was given a special body to begin with; he has only one earthly parent.  Ordinarily, that would make him a clone, except he has two parents.

He was the fulness of the Godhead bodily, but that is something that we could never be because the old wineskins that are these bodies of ours would burst--IMO.

PS He changes into his resurrected body before he dies, at the transfiguration.

So one could say that is the sort of thing that might happen at any point before the cross if he didn't control it.

[Lazarus Short]

Given what Molly posted, I'm going to share something that some of you may consider to be a bit "out there."

First, there was this amateur archaeologist named Ron Wyatt, a dentist by trade if memory serves.  He was a Seventh-Day Adventist, and so was all tied up with the SDA type/antitype theology.  He came to my attention through a video loaned to me by a dear Adventist couple I used to know.  They went underground in preparation for the end of the world, and I lost touch with them, but that's another story.  Anyway, Wyatt made three big discoveries:

the real site of the Red Sea crossing (as in Exodus)

the real resting-place of the ark of Noah

the Ark of the Covenant, in a cave deep under Jerusalem.

There are EweToob vids on each, but I'm going to mention a few things Wyatt stated about the Ark of the Covenant.  He found it difficult to photograph - the vids show a yellow blur.  Jews in Levitical garb tried to carry the Ark out of the cave, but the results were tragic.  The Ark was partly covered by a black, tarry substance which Wyatt determined (perhaps through some lab) to be blood.  Further, he saw that the blood had dripped from a fissure in the top of the chamber, and far above that, he found what he thought was the socket for the True Cross.  Here we see the type meeting the antitype, as the blood of Jesus ran into the rock, and down onto the Mercy Seat, as in the ritual on the Day of Atonement.  Even further, Wyatt found the blood to be haploid, and that's very, very important:  the nuclei of the white cells had only half the normal complement of chromosomes, plus an "X" chromosome.  Have I stretched your credulity too far, or inspired your faith?

Now, in my reading and poking into the back corners of history, I have come upon a very few accounts from the ancient world, recording accounts of encounters with the historical Jesus, from secular sources.  No, I can't document this, I read it in a book somewhere, and it's probably still in my personal library, yada, yada, yada.  This is the gist of it:  the man from whom the account comes, stated that Jesus had a round face like His mother.  Now if Ron Wyatt is honest in all that he says, and really did discover the Ark, the Blood, etc., then this ties in with the haploid blood cells, and all the chromosomes but the "X" chromosome must have come from Mary, and Jesus should have looked a LOT like her.

I hope I didn't turn the kaleidoscope too fast for anyone.

[eaglesway]

It's a different body for sure.  But, I think he was given a special body to begin with; he has only one earthly parent.  Ordinarily, that would make him a clone, except he has two parents.

He was the fulness of the Godhead bodily, but that is something that we could never be because the old wineskins that are these bodies of ours would burst--IMO.

PS He changes into his resurrected body before he dies, at the transfiguration.

So one could say that is the sort of thing that might happen at any point before the cross if he didn't control it.

Where do you get that Jesus changed into His resurrected body at the transfiguration? How was He crucified and killed dead on a cross if He was already in His resurrected body?

Jn 20:17 Jesus said to her, "Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, 'I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.'"

The scriptures say He was tempted in every way like as we are. The glory of His victory is that He overcame fron the same estate we are in. This is why we can mature into sonship by faith, because He did, and we are His disciples.

IMO Jesus was not the fulness of the Godhead until after He was resurrected, ascended and glorified- but even if He was, He was crucified as a man- no tricks, no "special edge"- just an obedient sacrifice, "taken form among men" to be our high priest (Hebrews 5).

[VineBranch]

Given what Molly posted, I'm going to share something that some of you may consider to be a bit "out there."

First, there was this amateur archaeologist named Ron Wyatt, a dentist by trade if memory serves.  He was a Seventh-Day Adventist, and so was all tied up with the SDA type/antitype theology.  He came to my attention through a video loaned to me by a dear Adventist couple I used to know.  They went underground in preparation for the end of the world, and I lost touch with them, but that's another story.  Anyway, Wyatt made three big discoveries:

the real site of the Red Sea crossing (as in Exodus)

the real resting-place of the ark of Noah

the Ark of the Covenant, in a cave deep under Jerusalem.

There are EweToob vids on each, but I'm going to mention a few things Wyatt stated about the Ark of the Covenant.  He found it difficult to photograph - the vids show a yellow blur.  Jews in Levitical garb tried to carry the Ark out of the cave, but the results were tragic.  The Ark was partly covered by a black, tarry substance which Wyatt determined (perhaps through some lab) to be blood.  Further, he saw that the blood had dripped from a fissure in the top of the chamber, and far above that, he found what he thought was the socket for the True Cross.  Here we see the type meeting the antitype, as the blood of Jesus ran into the rock, and down onto the Mercy Seat, as in the ritual on the Day of Atonement.  Even further, Wyatt found the blood to be haploid, and that's very, very important:  the nuclei of the white cells had only half the normal complement of chromosomes, plus an "X" chromosome.  Have I stretched your credulity too far, or inspired your faith?

Now, in my reading and poking into the back corners of history, I have come upon a very few accounts from the ancient world, recording accounts of encounters with the historical Jesus, from secular sources.  No, I can't document this, I read it in a book somewhere, and it's probably still in my personal library, yada, yada, yada.  This is the gist of it:  the man from whom the account comes, stated that Jesus had a round face like His mother.  Now if Ron Wyatt is honest in all that he says, and really did discover the Ark, the Blood, etc., then this ties in with the haploid blood cells, and all the chromosomes but the "X" chromosome must have come from Mary, and Jesus should have looked a LOT like her.

I hope I didn't turn the kaleidoscope too fast for anyone.

Laz:  We can argue if you wish.  We can debate if you wish.  I'm not saying you're wrong.  I would like to say, with all humility, you might, if you are of a mind, re-read the account.  I'm not a bio major, so what I say carries no weight.  It's just my opinion, but I think I would be remiss if I didn't remind us that, in humans, only the sperm cell, and the egg are haploids.

In a species which reproduces sexually, the blood cells must be diploid.  Humans are a species which reproduce sexually (this is my opinion, I've just not witnessed any other method).  Therefore, in order for Christ to have been truly human, his blood would have had to have been diploid.  If it wasn't, it wasn't human blood.  If it wasn't human blood which was shed for us, I don't know how it would have counted as being valid.  A lot of cow, and sheep blood had already been shed, and we still needed a 'human' to shed human blood in order for the whole substitute death to have any validity.

Again, I'm not a biologist, or a hematologist.  I encourage you to check out whether what I said is valid or not.  But I would very much encourage you to dig a little deeper.