Tentmaker Forum

A simple answer of yes or no is required. Did Jesus Christ die H4191..mûth G599.. apothnēskō? :HeartThrob:

yup

Yes.

Yes.

CHB

As I told you in a PM, yes

 :dsunny:

The Bible says He was 3 nights and 3 days in the lower part of the earth, which of course is the grave -- tartarus, the darkness, not a 'hell', being the chains the angels which left their first place is imperfection because imperfection cannot reverse its course and make itself again perfect being imperfect. The interpretation that Jesus went and "preached to the souls in prison" while in the grave, is a misreading of the verse, which simply says the Spirit preaching, is the same Spirit of Jesus when He preached to the souls awaiting the flood in unbelief, while Noah was building the ark.

And Hebrews 2:14 says "by death Jesus defeated death".
:smile:

The Bible says, Mat 12:40  for, as Jonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights, so shall the Son of Man be in the heart of the earth three days and three nights.

Which of course is not, "...which of course is the grave -- tartarus, the darkness, not a 'hell',..."

Glory Hallelujah! And Hebrews 2:14 says "by death Jesus defeated death". :dsunny: :HeartThrob: :dsunny:

Why was this question even asked? Surely we do not have in our midst someone who would ascribe to that most implausible of theories rejected by even the vast majority of non-Christian historians: swoon theory? Surely not! You, OP, were presumably able to open your web browser by yourself, and enter in your username and password without assistance, and to type and post your message, so surely you must be too intelligent to fall for such rubbish! I dare not ascribe to you the stupidity and/or psychological illness that would be required to believe such a notion!

While believing the scriptures to the best of our current understanding, there are various opinions of certain details and interpretations, and we can discuss them pleasantly.  I anticipated this being a soul sleep thread, :bigGrin:  so I was waiting for further conversation to begin rather than a simple 'yes'/'no'.

As I understand, Jonah's BODY was hidden, buried - his spirit lived.  Yes,  I do believe Jesus' flesh died and was in the grave for 3 days.  I personally don't believe the Divine, the YHWH in Him ever died.  Blessings.

http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/word-faith2.html

To say Christ died spiritually is to reduce Him to the level of sinful man, and breed doubt to His divinity and deity in union with the [Father].  God cannot die, so how can this be possible? Christ was put to death in the flesh, not the spirit (1 Pet 3:18). ..the Bible does say is Christ died a physical death - offering His body as the sacrifice for our sin. The Scriptures tell us our redemption took place at the cross when the blood of Jesus was shed, and by offering His flesh as the atonement for sin. The blood of Christ is what we have been purchased with (Acts 20:28; Col. 1:14), for bringing us into reconciliation or at-one-ment with God. Paul draws attention to everything regarding the death of Christ as bodily, with no mention of Him ever dying otherwise. The significance of Christ's body is important as paying attention to because it is the antitype of the New Testament sacrifice. (Rom.8:3; Eph. 2:15; Col.1:22). "Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil" (Heb 2:14).

I don't know book/chapter/verse on this, but did Jesus not say that He had the power to lay His life down, and to take it up again??

John 10:16 (ASV) reads:

QuoteNo one taketh it away from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment received I from my Father.

It was at the Father's command, by the Son's authority, and by (per Rom. 8:11) the Spirit's power that Jesus was resurrected.
----------------------------
Buy my book The Superior Religion? Christianity and the Human Condition at Amazon!

John 10:18
No one takes it away from Me. On the contrary, I lay it down voluntarily. [I put it from Myself.] I am authorized and have power to lay it down (to resign it) and I am authorized and have power to take it back again. These are the instructions (orders) which I have received [as My charge] from My Father.
John 10:17-19

Quote from: k1ngm3 on January 23, 2013, 10:31:42 PM
John 10:16 (ASV) reads:

QuoteNo one taketh it away from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment received I from my Father.

It was at the Father's command, by the Son's authority, and by (per Rom. 8:11) the Spirit's power that Jesus was resurrected.
----------------------------
Buy my book The Superior Religion? Christianity and the Human Condition at Amazon!

Why? (the book I mean)

Quote from: micah7:9 on January 23, 2013, 10:10:55 PM
The Bible says, Mat 12:40  for, as Jonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights, so shall the Son of Man be in the heart of the earth three days and three nights.

Which of course is not, "...which of course is the grave -- tartarus, the darkness, not a 'hell',..."

Glory Hallelujah! And Hebrews 2:14 says "by death Jesus defeated death". :dsunny: :HeartThrob: :dsunny:

Don't be shy Micah, tell us what you think.

Quote from: k1ngm3 on January 23, 2013, 10:31:42 PM
John 10:16 (ASV) reads:

QuoteNo one taketh it away from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment received I from my Father.

It was at the Father's command, by the Son's authority, and by (per Rom. 8:11) the Spirit's power that Jesus was resurrected.
----------------------------
Buy my book The Superior Religion? Christianity and the Human Condition at Amazon!

Hi K1ngm3.  I know I'm going to come across as a parade rain maker, but the first rule I read when I explored what was and was not allowed here was this:

1. You may not advertise merchandise and or any network marketing schemes.

I don't have the authority to ask you to take your advertisement down, but I thought you should be aware that what you are doing violates one of the rules.  If you would like to check it out, the pathway is Home/Expectations, FAQ, Admin Posts/What you MAY NOT DO:  third line down under the heading.

Quote from: VineBranch on January 24, 2013, 04:58:10 AM

Quote from: k1ngm3 on January 23, 2013, 10:31:42 PM
John 10:16 (ASV) reads:

QuoteNo one taketh it away from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment received I from my Father.

It was at the Father's command, by the Son's authority, and by (per Rom. 8:11) the Spirit's power that Jesus was resurrected.
----------------------------
Buy my book The Superior Religion? Christianity and the Human Condition at Amazon!

Hi K1ngm3.  I know I'm going to come across as a parade rain maker, but the first rule I read when I explored what was and was not allowed here was this:

1. You may not advertise merchandise and or any network marketing schemes.

I don't have the authority to ask you to take your advertisement down, but I thought you should be aware that what you are doing violates one of the rules.  If you would like to check it out, the pathway is Home/Expectations, FAQ, Admin Posts/What you MAY NOT DO:  third line down under the heading.

Aye-aye, cap'n! I'll alter my signature(that's all it was)  so that way it's no different from when others recommend books of their own, posts of their own, or links to their own websites which profit from the number of hits they receive. Thanks for the heads-up, friend. If that's still a problem, then... well, I've no problem leaving. I'm a busy man, work ten hours-a-day, and have no time for such Pharisaic childishness. If the webmaster wishes to remove me for my one-line signature, then let him show himself a man and utterly ban me. Don't even give me a warning. It's an act of charity that I'm even discussing theological principles with those who lack PhDs in this field in the first place. For goodness' sake, this particular thread was about whether the divinity of Jesus of Nazareth experienced death at the Crucifixion, which at best plainly oozes with modalism. Yet, a thread so absurd will remain while my relevant posts will be deleted because of their one-line signature? Goodness, why would anyone with any proper training in the field wish to participate here if that were the case? Please, if I've inadvertently become a member of such a site, respect my good name by undoing the mistake of my registration.
--------------------------------
Read the ASV Bible and The Superior Condition? Christianity and the Human Condition!

We'll relieve you of your burden of having to stoop so low to chat with us.  Goodbye.

Quote from: Lazarus Short on January 23, 2013, 10:24:46 PM
I don't know book/chapter/verse on this, but did Jesus not say that He had the power to lay His life down, and to take it up again??

Yes He did.I believe He also said the Father gave Him that power.

Quote from: k1ngm3 on January 24, 2013, 05:29:10 AM

Quote from: VineBranch on January 24, 2013, 04:58:10 AM

Quote from: k1ngm3 on January 23, 2013, 10:31:42 PM
John 10:16 (ASV) reads:

QuoteNo one taketh it away from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment received I from my Father.

It was at the Father's command, by the Son's authority, and by (per Rom. 8:11) the Spirit's power that Jesus was resurrected.
----------------------------
Buy my book The Superior Religion? Christianity and the Human Condition at Amazon!

Hi K1ngm3.  I know I'm going to come across as a parade rain maker, but the first rule I read when I explored what was and was not allowed here was this:

1. You may not advertise merchandise and or any network marketing schemes.

I don't have the authority to ask you to take your advertisement down, but I thought you should be aware that what you are doing violates one of the rules.  If you would like to check it out, the pathway is Home/Expectations, FAQ, Admin Posts/What you MAY NOT DO:  third line down under the heading.

Aye-aye, cap'n! I'll alter my signature(that's all it was)  so that way it's no different from when others recommend books of their own, posts of their own, or links to their own websites which profit from the number of hits they receive. Thanks for the heads-up, friend. If that's still a problem, then... well, I've no problem leaving. I'm a busy man, work ten hours-a-day, and have no time for such Pharisaic childishness. If the webmaster wishes to remove me for my one-line signature, then let him show himself a man and utterly ban me. Don't even give me a warning. It's an act of charity that I'm even discussing theological principles with those who lack PhDs in this field in the first place. For goodness' sake, this particular thread was about whether the divinity of Jesus of Nazareth experienced death at the Crucifixion, which at best plainly oozes with modalism. Yet, a thread so absurd will remain while my relevant posts will be deleted because of their one-line signature? Goodness, why would anyone with any proper training in the field wish to participate here if that were the case? Please, if I've inadvertently become a member of such a site, respect my good name by undoing the mistake of my registration.
--------------------------------
Read the ASV Bible and The Superior Condition? Christianity and the Human Condition!

Was it something I said?

Thanks, VB, you just alienated a valuable new member.  :punish:

Hmmm....

Laz -
Vine Branch didn't alienate anyone and certainly not a valued member.
The rules were being violated and he was about to be asked by the moderators
to take it down anyway.
The attitude displayed was enough to make me desire not to hear what was said in book or posts.
The words negated the love. :sigh: :Peace2: :dsunny:

 :sigh: I suppose I should have stayed out of it  :footmouth: but I thought the fellow might have much to contribute - but what do I know?  I think I'll stop now... :dunno2:

Quote from: Lazarus Short on January 24, 2013, 10:44:42 PM
:sigh: I suppose I should have stayed out of it  :footmouth: but I thought the fellow might have much to contribute - but what do I know?  I think I'll stop now... :dunno2:

:laugh:     :angel4:

WELL...HE MAY HAVE HAD A PH[ar-i-see] D-gree...BUT i ALWAYS TREAT THOSE LIKE JESUS SAID.........

   DO WHAT THEY SAY BUT NOT WHAT  :eekTHEY DO.

At the risk of putting my foot  :footmouth: in it again:

We subscribe to Universal Reconciliation, and part of that (to me) is the realization that people we may not like in the here-and-now will share the Kingdom with us - forever!

Now  :punish:

Later  :friendstu:

Do you get the picture?

We won't any of us be what we are now.  Our carnal flesh will be gone, and all the desires and actions thereof.

Paul had a few things to say about mutual relationships, including, "If possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all.."

Paul and Barnabas separated - for awhile.

Eventually, we will all be reconciled as one.  In the meantime, all of us have rough hedges that are being honed, and there may be family members that it just doesn't work well to sit down and have a meal with right now - until reconciliation is complete - either here, or there.   :2c:

..as much as is possible..

Blessings.

Quote from: Lazarus Short on January 24, 2013, 07:00:08 PM
Thanks, VB, you just alienated a valuable new member.  :punish:

I'm so sorry Laz, that was not my intention.  I tried to be as diplomatic as I could.  I re-read the post and I think he over reacted, but you're right, it was my fault.  I should have shown more forebearance.  It is only fair then that I ask the moderators to delete my account as well.

See you.

I beg your forgiveness.

VB, you don't need to leave.  You haven't done anything requiring that.  We're all learning here. 

You didn't make the decision.  The only decision you made was to comment.  Then he made his decision to show himself, and I personally am the one that decided to accomodate his request. 

We're getting close to needing to go to PM with this due to possible moderation issues involved.  Please anyone, with any questions about this, please PM myself and the other mods.  However, IMO, the necessary evidence is self-evident in the response to VB's post.

Quote from: sheila on January 25, 2013, 02:54:26 AM
WELL...HE MAY HAVE HAD A PH[ar-i-see] D-gree...BUT i ALWAYS TREAT THOSE LIKE JESUS SAID.........

   DO WHAT THEY SAY BUT NOT WHAT  :eekTHEY DO.

Hehehehehehe I can't stop laughing... PH (arisee) Degree... SO TRUE!!!!

Ahaha that's such a great word play. (And I went to a Bible University...)

Quote from: VineBranch on January 25, 2013, 04:18:14 AM

Quote from: Lazarus Short on January 24, 2013, 07:00:08 PM
Thanks, VB, you just alienated a valuable new member.  :punish:

I'm so sorry Laz, that was not my intention.  I tried to be as diplomatic as I could.  I re-read the post and I think he over reacted, but you're right, it was my fault.  I should have shown more forebearance.  It is only fair then that I ask the moderators to delete my account as well.

See you.

I beg your forgiveness.

Forgiveness?  Sure, no problem!  I just said what I did because things had seemed a bit tense on the forum lately, and I wanted to muffle things a bit.  Don't go away, please, we have too few members.  Too bad he's gone, but he did over-react, and maybe I assumed he would settle into our friendly, loving atmosphere...ah well.

YES,i DO...AND ...I THINK WE HAVE TO BE VERY CAREFUL HOW WE TREAT PEOPLE. FOR GOD JUDGES BETWEEN A SHEEP

AND A SHEEP. ARROGANCE,PRIDE,FAULTFINDING,NITPICKING. THESE ATTITUDES MAKE US MISS OUT.ALL OF US.

  BUT YOU HAVE TO PRACTICE WHAT YOU PREACH...

   WOE TO THE WORLD BECAUSE OF THE THINGS THAT CAUSE MEN TO SIN.STUMBLING MUST COME,BUT WOE TO THE MAN

  THROUGH WHOM THEY COME.

IT IS NOT THE HOLY SPIRIT THAT CAUSES MEN TO SIN AND STUMBLE 

I love you Sheila you are like a breath of fresh air.  :HeartThrob:

:friendstu: :handshake: :giveheart:

 :laugh:   DID I EVER TELL YOU ABOUT THAT TIME JESUS COME ONE MORNING TO INSPECT ME? I HAD JUST COME OUT OF

  JEHOVAH'S WITTNESS'S.  HE TOLD ME 'YOU HAVE DRAGONBREATH!"  i WAS MORTIFIED.!!  I HAD BEEN PUSHING DOCTRINES

  OF CONDEMNATION AND ETERNAL TORMENT ON MEN!!!  DRAGONHEAD MEAT!!

  PSALMS 74;14  IT WAS YOU WHO CRUSHED THE HEADS OF LEVIATHAN AND GIVE HIM TO BE MEAT TO THE CREATURES

  OF THE DESERT

  CAN YOU PULL IN THE LEVIATHAN WITH A FISH-HOOK....HE IS KING OVER ALL THAT IS PROUD.

  IT IS PRIDE THAT MAKES US THINK WE ARE WORTHY[OF A FREE GIFT OF MERCY] AND OTHERS NOT.

In that day the LORD will punish Leviathan the fleeing serpent, With His fierce and great and mighty sword, Even Leviathan the twisted serpent; And He will kill the dragon who lives in the sea. In that day, "A vineyard of wine, sing of it! "I, the LORD, am its keeper; I water it every moment. So that no one will damage it, I guard it night and day.
(Isa 27:1-3)

Yes Sheila I remember reading that hahaha I absolutely LOVE His way of putting things and His sense of humour!! Speaking of which, I've been wanting to start a thread on the Lord's humour lately, I LOVE hearing the stuff He pulls on people. If anyone's got anything good please start a thread with it so we can all have a good laugh!

Quote from: Lazarus Short on January 24, 2013, 07:00:08 PM
Thanks, VB, you just alienated a valuable new member.  :punish:

Okay.  Laz  I have checked and it says right in the book of Hezakiah that you shall not smack Vine upside the head. 

Hezakiah [sic] said that?  You had me going for a moment, and then I remembered that Hezekiah did not write any book (that we know of).

Actually, that is in the book of Lamechias.

I thought it was the book of Obakuk?

 :doh: Oh Yeah! Forgot ol Obakuk

MY BAD! :sigh: :sigh: :sigh: :eek:

Quote from: micah7:9 on January 28, 2013, 08:06:55 AM
MY BAD! :sigh: :sigh: :sigh: :eek:

My cow - this is the third thread in a row where you were the last poster, and said something like, no, nevermind, sorry, my bad, etc.  Maybe you need to relax, stay off the www for a few days, read a good book...

Quote from: Lazarus Short on January 28, 2013, 08:11:23 AM

Quote from: micah7:9 on January 28, 2013, 08:06:55 AM
MY BAD! :sigh: :sigh: :sigh: :eek:

My cow - this is the third thread in a row where you were the last poster, and said something like, no, nevermind, sorry, my bad, etc.  Maybe you need to relax, stay off the www for a few days, read a good book...

That's actually from Hesakiah too Laz.  It states quite clearly My Cow is My Bad and You shall milk the joke.  I don't think it's in the Fenton Ferrar version though.

Quote from: VineBranch on January 28, 2013, 04:50:25 PM

Quote from: Lazarus Short on January 28, 2013, 08:11:23 AM

Quote from: micah7:9 on January 28, 2013, 08:06:55 AM
MY BAD! :sigh: :sigh: :sigh: :eek:

My cow - this is the third thread in a row where you were the last poster, and said something like, no, nevermind, sorry, my bad, etc.  Maybe you need to relax, stay off the www for a few days, read a good book...

That's actually from Hesakiah too Laz.  It states quite clearly My Cow is My Bad and You shall milk the joke.  I don't think it's in the Fenton Ferrar version though.

No, it's not, and how would you even say that in the King's English?  "Fenton Ferrar"?  I see you've been paying attention, well, sort of.

It's in my Fender Ferrari version. :laughing7:

Quote from: ded2daworld on January 28, 2013, 05:43:26 PM
It's in my Fender Ferrari version. :laughing7:

I see you are having a bumper crop of jokes in here.

Quote from: VineBranch on January 29, 2013, 03:48:11 AM

Quote from: ded2daworld on January 28, 2013, 05:43:26 PM
It's in my Fender Ferrari version. :laughing7:

I see you are having a bumper crop of jokes in here.

It costs him, believe me.  :laugh:

Oh golly hahahahahaha  :LH:

A comment in another thread, and the thoughts it elicited within me brought me back to this thread.  The thought I had (for the first time ever - thanks for jogging me :) was, "if Jesus was completely dead, i.e., soul sleep - not only His body dead, but also His spirit - could He honestly then have said that He had the power to lay down His life and to take it up again"?  His Father raised Him from the dead.  But did He have to, or is that the choice Jesus and the Father made, to do it that way, and Jesus could have raised His body if He had chosen to?  That also takes into account scripture that says the spirit returns to God who gave it - not "the spirit is dead or sleeping".  Although, I've suggested earlier it could be possible at least our (humans) spirits could typically be in some sort of holding state within the Father until resurrection of the body?  Maybe not, but I'm not positive.  Blessings.

Laz commented in the other thread that Jesus was the only man whose Spirit was His.  Very cool thought.  I'm not sure all the ramifications of that, but it does seem huge!

Quote from: jabcat on February 12, 2013, 06:06:09 AM
A comment in another thread, and the thoughts it elicited within me brought me back to this thread.  The thought I had (for the first time ever - thanks for jogging me :) was, "if Jesus was completely dead, i.e., soul sleep - not only His body dead, but also His spirit - could He honestly then have said that He had the power to lay down His life and to take it up again"?  His Father raised Him from the dead.  But did He have to, or is that the choice Jesus and the Father made, to do it that way, and Jesus could have raised His body if He had chosen to?  That also takes into account scripture that says the spirit returns to God who gave it - not "the spirit is dead or sleeping".  Although, I've suggested earlier it could be possible at least our (humans) spirits could typically be in some sort of holding state within the Father until resurrection of the body?  Maybe not, but I'm not positive.  Blessings.

Sorry Jab, who says Christ's spirit died?  Is that believed by some?  Could you fill that one if for me.  According to Matthew 10:28, isn't God the only one who can kill a soul, or at least the only one to be feared for having that ability?  So, the people who killed Christ couldn't have killed his spirit:  could they have?

I don't think Christ couldn't have raised himself, his resurrection was a foregone conclusion.  Christ raised Lazarus, so Christ can raise the dead.   Perhaps the protocol was showing Him leading the way into a future: a future in which the Father raises us, and Christ's humanity made Him the first one of 'us' to be raised.

I don't believe that Jesus' spirit died, but I THINK many do - the "soul sleep" advocates.  That's my interpretation of what they believe.  That Jesus was completely, fully dead for 3 days - including His spirit and everything about Him.  But if that's not what they really believe, maybe someone will clarify.   :thumbsup:

Quote from: jabcat on February 12, 2013, 06:10:10 AM
Laz commented in the other thread that Jesus was the only man whose Spirit was His.  Very cool thought.  I'm not sure all the ramifications of that, but it does seem huge!

For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world and forfeits his soul? Or what shall a man give in return for his soul?
(Mat 16:26)  KJV

Aren't those pronouns possesive? 

Quote from: jabcat on February 12, 2013, 06:44:05 AM
I don't believe that Jesus' spirit died, but I THINK many do - the "soul sleep" advocates.  That's my interpretation of what they believe.  That Jesus was completely, fully dead for 3 days - including His spirit and everything about Him.  But if that's not what they really believe, maybe someone will clarify.   :thumbsup:

Do you have any sources I might check?

Here's a honkin' long thread on it;

http://tentmaker.org/forum/apologetic-support/soul-sleep-4791/msg49863/#msg49863

I BELIEVE micah believes in "total death/soul sleep".  micah, could you, in a clear way we can understand, give a general idea of what soul sleep believers tend to believe?  I know not all are the same, but maybe you could give us a summary?  Thanks.

Quote from: jabcat on February 12, 2013, 06:53:48 AM
Here's a honkin' long thread on it;

http://tentmaker.org/forum/apologetic-support/soul-sleep-4791/msg49863/#msg49863

I BELIEVE micah believes in "total death/soul sleep".  micah, could you, in a clear way we can understand, give a general idea of what soul sleep believers tend to believe?  I know not all are the same, but maybe you could give us a summary?  Thanks.

Thanks Jab.

I looked at the thread.  I'll start now, and see you around Christmas ...

haha, yeah exactly...

i've been scanning it, and i think the best explanation i saw of soul sleep in the thread is actually in the opening post by sven.  it tends to scatter from there, at least over the next 6-8 pages.  i gave up after that.  :o

IMO, The idea that the soul "sleeps" in the interim between death and the second coming of Christ(every eye shall see Him even those that pierced Him) is just an idiom of expression. We die, we awaken in His presence at the Great White Throne. With the exception perhaps of "the spirits of righteous men made perfect"-144,000 overcomers caught up to His throne(Phil 3:11,12)- everyone dies and is without consciousness(sleeping) until the moment of their awakening, be it first or second resurrection. We make too much of it IMO.

Quote from: jabcat on February 12, 2013, 06:06:09 AM
A comment in another thread, and the thoughts it elicited within me brought me back to this thread.  The thought I had (for the first time ever - thanks for jogging me :) was, "if Jesus was completely dead, i.e., soul sleep - not only His body dead, but also His spirit - could He honestly then have said that He had the power to lay down His life and to take it up again"?  His Father raised Him from the dead.  But did He have to, or is that the choice Jesus and the Father made, to do it that way, and Jesus could have raised His body if He had chosen to?  That also takes into account scripture that says the spirit returns to God who gave it - not "the spirit is dead or sleeping".  Although, I've suggested earlier it could be possible at least our (humans) spirits could typically be in some sort of holding state within the Father until resurrection of the body?  Maybe not, but I'm not positive.  Blessings.

The Father raises Jesus from the dead:
Romans 6⁴, CLV...
4 We, then, were entombed together with Him through baptism into death, that, even as Christ was roused from among the dead through the glory of the Father, thus we also should be walking in newness of life.

Jesus raises Himself from the dead:
John 10^17-18, CLV...
17 "Therefore the Father is loving Me, seeing that I am laying down My soul that I may be getting it again.
18 No one is taking it away from Me, but I am laying it down of Myself. I have the right to lay it down, and I have the right to get it again. This precept I got from My Father."

The Spirit raises Jesus from the dead:
Romans 8¹¹, CLV...
11 Now if the spirit of Him Who rouses Jesus from among the dead is making its home in you, He Who rouses Christ Jesus from among the dead will also be vivifying your mortal bodies because of His spirit making its home in you.

Sounds trinitarian to me - it's like they are all God or something :eek:

Quote from: reFORMer on February 12, 2013, 09:57:16 AM
Jesus raises Himself from the dead:
John 10^17-18, CLV...
17 "Therefore the Father is loving Me, seeing that I am laying down My soul that I may be getting it again.
18 No one is taking it away from Me, but I am laying it down of Myself. I have the right to lay it down, and I have the right to get it again. This precept I got from My Father."

Ref, I'm sorry ... how does that show Jesus raised Himself?  He has the right to lay His soul down, and then the right to get it again.  How does that mean He raised Himself.  The Father could have given it back to Him.  Sorry, I seem to be the most obtuse one in the group.

"All power in heaven and earth is given to me by my Father"

"For so it pleased the Father to make all the fulness dwell in Him and through Him to recconcile all things..."

"When it says, "all things" are subjected to Him it is obvious that the One who made all things subject to Him is excepted"


I think that is exactly the case VB. The Father made death subject to Jesus by giving Him the power to take up His life again.

Quote from: eaglesway on February 12, 2013, 07:57:59 PM
I think that is exactly the case VB. The Father made death subject to Jesus by giving Him the power to take up His life again.

Would that mean the raising is by the Father, and the agent is Jesus?  Is that the Father raising Jesus, just by another means?

It is debatable, because we have trouble with certain perceptions and definitions :o). I have a firm opinion about it but I don't like to offend, so I will just say this.

The Father is in Jesus and Jesus is in the Father. The Father gave Jesus the keys to death and sheol. The Father gave Jesus all authority in heaven and earth. The Father gave Jesus the name above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee shall bow. The Father raised Jesus to His right hand and gave Him the "spirit without measure" so that now Jesus is the dispenser of the Holy Spirit baptism.

Jesus is the Son who exercises all of the authority of the Father. This is by appointment, inheritance and by the unlimited supply of the Holy Spirit. Jesus was given the power to take up His life. That power is the Spirit of God.

Quote from: eaglesway on February 13, 2013, 06:44:48 AM
It is debatable, because we have trouble with certain perceptions and definitions :o). I have a firm opinion about it but I don't like to offend, so I will just say this.

The Father is in Jesus and Jesus is in the Father. The Father gave Jesus the keys to death and sheol. The Father gave Jesus all authority in heaven and earth. The Father gave Jesus the name above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee shall bow. The Father raised Jesus to His right hand and gave Him the "spirit without measure" so that now Jesus is the dispenser of the Holy Spirit baptism.

Jesus is the Son who exercises all of the authority of the Father. This is by appointment, inheritance and by the unlimited supply of the Holy Spirit. Jesus was given the power to take up His life. That power is the Spirit of God.

The Father, gave Jesus the Spirit?  Okay got it.

How come Jesus said He had to leave so the Spirit could come?

While Jesus was alive, it seems the holy spirit limited himself to a few individuals(pre-pentecost) mainly Jesus and John the presbyterian Baptist.

Thanks Micah

Quote from: VineBranch on February 13, 2013, 08:30:15 AM

The Father, gave Jesus the Spirit?  Okay got it.

How come Jesus said He had to leave so the Spirit could come?

They could well be different Spirits, as the Revelation states there are seven Spirits of God, and the verse telling us to test the Spirits hints at multiplicity.

Quote from: ded2daworld on February 13, 2013, 03:04:05 PM
While Jesus was alive, it seems the holy spirit limited himself to a few individuals(pre-pentecost) mainly Jesus and John the presbyterian Baptist.

Thanks Micah

His Name is Wonderful!

Quote from: eaglesway on February 13, 2013, 06:44:48 AM
Jesus is the Son who exercises all of the authority of the Father. This is by appointment, inheritance and by the unlimited supply of the Holy Spirit. Jesus was given the power to take up His life. That power is the Spirit of God.

I don't quite get inheritance.  Does Jesus inherit God's power while the Father yet lives?

The Holy Spirit is the power to take up His life.  Was that what raised Lazarus?

Quote from: Lazarus Short on February 13, 2013, 03:46:47 PM

Quote from: VineBranch on February 13, 2013, 08:30:15 AM

The Father, gave Jesus the Spirit?  Okay got it.

How come Jesus said He had to leave so the Spirit could come?

They could well be different Spirits, as the Revelation states there are seven Spirits of God, and the verse telling us to test the Spirits hints at multiplicity.

That makes sense.  But I don't get why it is The Holy Spirit then.  Wouldn't it be A Holy Spirit?

Quote from: VineBranch on February 13, 2013, 04:29:23 PM

Quote from: Lazarus Short on February 13, 2013, 03:46:47 PM

Quote from: VineBranch on February 13, 2013, 08:30:15 AM

The Father, gave Jesus the Spirit?  Okay got it.

How come Jesus said He had to leave so the Spirit could come?

They could well be different Spirits, as the Revelation states there are seven Spirits of God, and the verse telling us to test the Spirits hints at multiplicity.

That makes sense.  But I don't get why it is The Holy Spirit then.  Wouldn't it be A Holy Spirit?

The HS is usually discussed in the singular, maybe to keep things simple, maybe because it is written about sometimes as singular in the Bible, maybe because the priest/pastor doesn't want to do the "baptismal dip" nine times instead of three.

In Acts Chapter two Peter explains that being ascended to the Fathers right hand, Jesus received the Spirit and poured out "that which you do now see and hear". I believe Jesus had to be glorified before He could receive the "Spirit without measure". Thats why He had to go before the Spirit could "come upon us". As the Vine to we branches, As the chief cornerstone to we living stones, He is the source of our being filled with the Spirit. It is "from Him, through Him and to Him" and also "in Him".

Jesus is the fountainhead.

"He that believes in me, out of hos innermost being shall flow rivers of living water". In this He was speaking of the Holy Spirit, whom all believed were to receive." (John 7)

Quote from: eaglesway on February 13, 2013, 07:02:25 PM
I believe Jesus had to be glorified before He could receive the "Spirit without measure".

Then from where came the power to raise Himself?

Quote from: VineBranch on February 13, 2013, 09:52:31 PM

Quote from: eaglesway on February 13, 2013, 07:02:25 PM
I believe Jesus had to be glorified before He could receive the "Spirit without measure".

Then from where came the power to raise Himself?

What!  Don't you know?  Didn't He tell you yet?

Quote from: reFORMer on February 14, 2013, 05:01:13 AM

Quote from: VineBranch on February 13, 2013, 09:52:31 PM
Then from where came the power to raise Himself?

What!  Don't you know?  Didn't He tell you yet?

I'm going to assume you are at your badinage again. lol.

My questions then is this.

Eagle said, "Jesus was given the power to take up His life. That power is the Spirit of God."  So, He needs the Spirit of God to take up His life.

The he said, "I believe Jesus had to be glorified before He could receive the 'Spirit without measure'.  Thats why He had to go before the Spirit could 'come upon us'.

But Jesus died and was resurrected before He was glorified, so He didn't have the Spirit, or power, to take up His life.  So, from whence cameth that power then?

Quote from: VineBranch on February 14, 2013, 05:21:37 AM

Quote from: reFORMer on February 14, 2013, 05:01:13 AM

Quote from: VineBranch on February 13, 2013, 09:52:31 PM
Then from where came the power to raise Himself?

What!  Don't you know?  Didn't He tell you yet?

I'm going to assume you are at your badinage again. lol.

My questions then is this.

Eagle said, "Jesus was given the power to take up His life. That power is the Spirit of God."  So, He needs the Spirit of God to take up His life.

The he said, "I believe Jesus had to be glorified before He could receive the 'Spirit without measure'.  Thats why He had to go before the Spirit could 'come upon us'.

But Jesus died and was resurrected before He was glorified, so He didn't have the Spirit, or power, to take up His life.  So, from whence cameth that power then?

John 3³⁴ (KJV) says "...God gives not the spirit by measure unto him."  "Unto him" is added by the translators.  What's more, God doesn't give the spirit "in part" to us.  "Where there is any of God there is all of God."  It is the nature of the Spirit to be altogether God with all the attributes of Deity where ever he is.  It is the Spirit and not just a piece of Him.  When He dwells within us it is really the Spirit Himself Who is present.

Jesus left His body and in spirit went to hades and preached to the dead.  He raised from the dead triumphant, ascending to sit in God's throne with Him, somewhere along the way obtaining the keys to death and hades.

1 Peter 3^17-22, CLV...
17 For it is better to be suffering for doing good, if the will of God may be willing, than for doing evil,
18 seeing that Christ also, for our sakes, once died concerning sins, the just for the sake of the unjust, that He may be leading us to God; being put to death, indeed, in flesh, yet vivified in spirit,
19 in which, being gone to the spirits in jail also,
20 He heralds to those once stubborn, when the patience of God awaited in the days of Noah while the ark was being constructed, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were brought safely through water,
21 the representation of which, baptism, is now saving you also (not the putting off of the filth of the flesh, but the inquiry of a good conscience to God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
22 Who is at God's right hand, being gone into heaven, messengers and authorities and powers being subjected to Him.


1 Peter 4⁶, CLV...
6 For for this an evangel is brought to the dead also, that they may be judged, indeed, according to men in flesh, yet should be living according to God, in spirit.

The KJV says...
4:6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

   the last Adam became a quickening spirit.     I AM THE RESURRECTION

I did not at any time say that Jesus did not have the spirit before He was glorified.

I said He did not receive the Spirit "without measure" until He was glorified.

The scripture clearly says this,

He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)    (Joh 7:38-39)


and

Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
(Act 2:33)

Jesus walked in "a measure" of the anointing in His days on the earth.

He received from His Father AUTHORITY to take up His life and the Spirit of resurrection enabled Him to exercise that authority(the keys to sheol and death). It was this authority that was the key to His resurrection.

IMO, He was not, "The fulness of Godhead in bodily form" until after He was glorified. Nor did He receive the "spirit without measure" until after He was glorified, but He had plenty of Holy Ghost all over Him. It was given to Him, however in stages.

These three stages coincide with three stages of our discipleship.



Stage one Jesus: At Birth (the Holy Spirit overshadows Mary and she conceives, a Son is born)

Jesus was born with a measure of the Spirit. So was John the Baptist, who was filled with the Spirit from his mothers womb.

Stage One us: Begotten of God by the word of truth, Spirit hovers over the waters formless and void, let there be light, word implanted, spirit of resurection. We receive a measure of the Spirit whenever we believe.

Stage two: Baptism(Jesus anointed for service)

Stage two us: The Holy Spirit Baptism is an anointing for service, an additional strength(strengthened with might by His SPirit in the inner man) IMO this should happen right away, as it did in the Acts church- but do to the weakened gospel we preach there is a weakened "manifestation".

Stage three: Glorification after crucifixion and resurrection(Jesus anointed High Priest/Intercessor for all men.)

Stage three us: Priests of the most high God, Ministers of reconciliation, Martyrs for Christ Glorified to reign and inherit all things in Him(First resurrection, a kingdom of priests reigning a thousand years)

IMO this is the aonointing of the overcomers, the matured sons, the finished disiples, the "well done" sacrifices(every sacrifice will be salted with fire- "well done"....... get it?  :laugh:)

Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
(Act 2:33)

Quote from: eaglesway on February 15, 2013, 05:16:47 AM
I did not at any time say that Jesus did not have the spirit before He was glorified.

I said He did not receive the Spirit "without measure" until He was glorified.

The scripture clearly says this,

He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)    (Joh 7:38-39)


and

Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
(Act 2:33)

Jesus walked in "a measure" of the anointing in His days on the earth.

He received from His Father AUTHORITY to take up His life and the Spirit of resurrection enabled Him to exercise that authority(the keys to sheol and death). It was this authority that was the key to His resurrection. He still did not yet have the "Spirit without measure".

IMO, He was not, "The fulness of Godhead in bodily form" until after He was glorified. Nor did He receive the "spirit without measure" until after He was glorified, but He had plenty of Holy Ghost all over Him. It was given to Him, however in stages.

These three stages coincide with three stages of our discipleship.



Stage one Jesus: At Birth (the Holy Spirit overshadows Mary and she conceives, a Son is born)

Jesus was born with a measure of the Spirit. So was John the Baptist, who was filled with the Spirit from his mothers womb.

Stage One us: Begotten of God by the word of truth, Spirit hovers over the waters formless and void, let there be light, word implanted, spirit of resurection. We receive a measure of the Spirit whenever we believe.

Stage two: Baptism(Jesus anointed for service)

Stage two us: The Holy Spirit Baptism is an anointing for service, an additional strength(strengthened with might by His SPirit in the inner man) IMO this should happen right away, as it did in the Acts church- but do to the weakened gospel we preach there is a weakened "manifestation".

Stage three: Glorification after crucifixion and resurrection(Jesus anointed High Priest/Intercessor for all men.)

Stage three us: Priests of the most high God, Ministers of reconciliation, Martyrs for Christ Glorified to reign and inherit all things in Him(First resurrection, a kingdom of priests reigning a thousand years)

IMO this is the aonointing of the overcomers, the matured sons, the finished disiples, the "well done" sacrifices(every sacrifice will be salted with fire- "well done"....... get it?  :laugh:)

Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
(Act 2:33)

I believe Jesus had the full measure from His first breath in the world. Perhaps it grew from learning obedience but it was the full measure. :dsunny:

Well, I guess those verses don't really matter, jus go on and believe whatever. :o)

Jesus learned obedience through the things that He suffered. IMO, He grew through His manhood into His Godhead.

Quote from: eaglesway on February 15, 2013, 05:54:35 AM
Well, I guess those verses don't really matter, jus go on and believe whatever. :o)

The verses mean much and filled with truth, but as I am informed often, that one has an opinion of such things :o)

Mind you, I am not saying He wasnt God in the first place, but how could God learn to be one of us unless He experienced it all just as we do, in the weakness of flesh- only His faith given to Him until He had overcome, and then restored to Godhead.

John 17:5  And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

Php 2:5-11 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

1Ti 3:16 And great and important and weighty, we confess, is the hidden truth (the mystic secret) of godliness. He [ God] was made visible in human flesh, justified and vindicated in the [Holy] Spirit, was seen by angels, preached among the nations, believed on in the world, [and] taken up in glory. Amp


Heb 5:1-10  For every high priest taken from among men is appointed on behalf of men in things pertaining to God, in order to offer both gifts and sacrifices for sins; he can deal gently with the ignorant and misguided, since he himself also is beset with weakness; and because of it he is obligated to offer sacrifices for sins, as for the people, so also for himself. And no one takes the honor to himself, but receives it when he is called by God, even as Aaron was. So also Christ did not glorify Himself so as to become a high priest, but He who said to Him, "YOU ARE MY SON, TODAY I HAVE BEGOTTEN YOU"; just as He says also in another passage, "YOU ARE A PRIEST FOREVER ACCORDING TO THE ORDER OF MELCHIZEDEK." In the days of His flesh, He offered up both prayers and supplications with loud crying and tears to the One able to save Him from death, and He was heard because of His piety. Although He was a Son, He learned obedience from the things which He suffered. And having been made perfect, He became to all those who obey Him the source of eternal salvation, being designated by God as a high priest according to the order of Melchizedek.

Oh My Lord Jesus- We may disagree about how you have done what you have done in the details, but Lord we are all united in DECLARING YOUR GLORY, and our ENDLESS GRATITUDE to you for taking upon yourself the limits of our estate, and sacrificing your life to BRING US INTO YOURS. Thank You My Lord and My God, and Thank You Father, the God of My Lord Jesus- Praises glory and honor to You in the GREAT ASSEMBLY now and into the misty future, Amen.

Micah, EW, stop! you're both right. :laughing7:
IMO, The omniscient God knows everything. When Abraham was about to put the knife in Isaac, God said, NOW I KNOW, talking about intellectual knowledge versus experiential knowledge. God knew beforehand what Abraham would do, just as he knew beforehand that Jesus would succeed as saviour. It was the experiences that gave God the experiential knowledge that previously he knew intellectually.
When God became flesh, he withheld a part of his omniscience (only the father knows on what day I will return) but was not half man half God like Hercules or other myths. He was fully God and Fully human. :Peace2:

 :trampoline:

1 Timothy 3:16
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

IMO, He was limited to His humanity while on the earth, so that His victory could become our victory. As fully God, He would have no challenge in this world, so He was fully man while in His incarnation- trusting God and walking in the Spirit by faith- His godhead set aside until His resurrection.

:o)

Quote from: eaglesway on February 15, 2013, 05:16:47 AM
I did not at any time say that Jesus did not have the spirit before He was glorified.
I said He did not receive the Spirit "without measure" until He was glorified.

So, obviously you don't need the whole thing to do some things.  How much spirit do you need to raise yourself then.  Half full?  Three quarters full?  If you don't need the full thing, can you get away with maybe a quart?  Can you be down a quart and still raise yourself?  Inquiring minds need to know this stuff.

Well, if Jesus was fully godified they could have driven ails in Him all day and He just woulda laughed it off.

In the limits of His flesh He was killed, murdered, died.

You couldnt kill Him now, thats for sure. If He stood right in front of you He could absorb the eergy of your hydroge bomb and smile and forgive you so- there is definitely a difference between Jesus on earth pre glorification and Jesus post resurrection and ascension.

That difference is that He is the fulness of the Godhead in bodily form, He has the "Spirit without measure".  That means infinite omniscient omnipotent supply of the Spirit.

A little common sense and a few verses of scripture is all it takes to see that He was not so in the weakness He was subjected to(willingly) during the days of His flesh.

Quote from: eaglesway on February 16, 2013, 07:35:55 AM
Well, if Jesus was fully godified they could have driven ails in Him all day and He just woulda laughed it off.

In the limits of His flesh He was killed, murdered, died.

You couldnt kill Him now, thats for sure. If He stood right in front of you He could absorb the eergy of your hydroge bomb and smile and forgive you so- there is definitely a difference between Jesus on earth pre glorification and Jesus post resurrection and ascension.

That difference is that He is the fulness of the Godhead in bodily form, He has the "Spirit without measure".  That means infinite omniscient omnipotent supply of the Spirit.

A little common sense and a few verses of scripture is all it takes to see that He was not so in the weakness He was subjected to(willingly) during the days of His flesh.

Okay.  But are you saying that he couldn't have prevented them from driving nails in his hand (I think wrist) if he had choosen not to let them?

I don't mean to sound obtuse, but is the result of being filled (sorry no other words seems to work) with the spirit beyond measure the same as , or confirmed by, getting a superman kind of body?

No, I am not pinpointing details at all :o) I am saying that a great change took place between when Jesus was crucified and when He was glorified.

Phil 2 and Heb 5 clearly speak of the weakness of His flesh in His mortal days.

No such weakness exists now- He is God in Essence, Title and Power and is the fountainhead of the Holy Spirit.

In my world it is the testimony of the scriptures that matter.

Quote from: eaglesway on February 16, 2013, 08:03:23 AM
No, I am not pinpointing details at all :o) I am saying that a great change took place between when Jesus was crucified and when He was glorified.

Ahhhh.  I concur wholeheartedly.  The resurrected Jesus was different.  There's a moral here somewhere, but for the life of me I just seem to find it.  :laugh:

The moral is.................duh..............uh..........oh yeah, its past my bedtime! HAHAHAHAHAHA

It's a different body for sure.  But, I think he was given a special body to begin with; he has only one earthly parent.  Ordinarily, that would make him a clone, except he has two parents.

He was the fulness of the Godhead bodily, but that is something that we could never be because the old wineskins that are these bodies of ours would burst--IMO.

PS He changes into his resurrected body before he dies, at the transfiguration.

So one could say that is the sort of thing that might happen at any point before the cross if he didn't control it.

Given what Molly posted, I'm going to share something that some of you may consider to be a bit "out there."

First, there was this amateur archaeologist named Ron Wyatt, a dentist by trade if memory serves.  He was a Seventh-Day Adventist, and so was all tied up with the SDA type/antitype theology.  He came to my attention through a video loaned to me by a dear Adventist couple I used to know.  They went underground in preparation for the end of the world, and I lost touch with them, but that's another story.  Anyway, Wyatt made three big discoveries:

the real site of the Red Sea crossing (as in Exodus)

the real resting-place of the ark of Noah

the Ark of the Covenant, in a cave deep under Jerusalem.

There are EweToob vids on each, but I'm going to mention a few things Wyatt stated about the Ark of the Covenant.  He found it difficult to photograph - the vids show a yellow blur.  Jews in Levitical garb tried to carry the Ark out of the cave, but the results were tragic.  The Ark was partly covered by a black, tarry substance which Wyatt determined (perhaps through some lab) to be blood.  Further, he saw that the blood had dripped from a fissure in the top of the chamber, and far above that, he found what he thought was the socket for the True Cross.  Here we see the type meeting the antitype, as the blood of Jesus ran into the rock, and down onto the Mercy Seat, as in the ritual on the Day of Atonement.  Even further, Wyatt found the blood to be haploid, and that's very, very important:  the nuclei of the white cells had only half the normal complement of chromosomes, plus an "X" chromosome.  Have I stretched your credulity too far, or inspired your faith?

Now, in my reading and poking into the back corners of history, I have come upon a very few accounts from the ancient world, recording accounts of encounters with the historical Jesus, from secular sources.  No, I can't document this, I read it in a book somewhere, and it's probably still in my personal library, yada, yada, yada.  This is the gist of it:  the man from whom the account comes, stated that Jesus had a round face like His mother.  Now if Ron Wyatt is honest in all that he says, and really did discover the Ark, the Blood, etc., then this ties in with the haploid blood cells, and all the chromosomes but the "X" chromosome must have come from Mary, and Jesus should have looked a LOT like her.

I hope I didn't turn the kaleidoscope too fast for anyone.

Quote from: Molly on February 16, 2013, 08:37:26 AM
It's a different body for sure.  But, I think he was given a special body to begin with; he has only one earthly parent.  Ordinarily, that would make him a clone, except he has two parents.

He was the fulness of the Godhead bodily, but that is something that we could never be because the old wineskins that are these bodies of ours would burst--IMO.

PS He changes into his resurrected body before he dies, at the transfiguration.

So one could say that is the sort of thing that might happen at any point before the cross if he didn't control it.

Where do you get that Jesus changed into His resurrected body at the transfiguration? How was He crucified and killed dead on a cross if He was already in His resurrected body?

Jn 20:17 Jesus said to her, "Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, 'I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.'"

The scriptures say He was tempted in every way like as we are. The glory of His victory is that He overcame fron the same estate we are in. This is why we can mature into sonship by faith, because He did, and we are His disciples.

IMO Jesus was not the fulness of the Godhead until after He was resurrected, ascended and glorified- but even if He was, He was crucified as a man- no tricks, no "special edge"- just an obedient sacrifice, "taken form among men" to be our high priest (Hebrews 5).

Quote from: Lazarus Short on February 16, 2013, 02:47:30 PM
Given what Molly posted, I'm going to share something that some of you may consider to be a bit "out there."

First, there was this amateur archaeologist named Ron Wyatt, a dentist by trade if memory serves.  He was a Seventh-Day Adventist, and so was all tied up with the SDA type/antitype theology.  He came to my attention through a video loaned to me by a dear Adventist couple I used to know.  They went underground in preparation for the end of the world, and I lost touch with them, but that's another story.  Anyway, Wyatt made three big discoveries:

the real site of the Red Sea crossing (as in Exodus)

the real resting-place of the ark of Noah

the Ark of the Covenant, in a cave deep under Jerusalem.

There are EweToob vids on each, but I'm going to mention a few things Wyatt stated about the Ark of the Covenant.  He found it difficult to photograph - the vids show a yellow blur.  Jews in Levitical garb tried to carry the Ark out of the cave, but the results were tragic.  The Ark was partly covered by a black, tarry substance which Wyatt determined (perhaps through some lab) to be blood.  Further, he saw that the blood had dripped from a fissure in the top of the chamber, and far above that, he found what he thought was the socket for the True Cross.  Here we see the type meeting the antitype, as the blood of Jesus ran into the rock, and down onto the Mercy Seat, as in the ritual on the Day of Atonement.  Even further, Wyatt found the blood to be haploid, and that's very, very important:  the nuclei of the white cells had only half the normal complement of chromosomes, plus an "X" chromosome.  Have I stretched your credulity too far, or inspired your faith?

Now, in my reading and poking into the back corners of history, I have come upon a very few accounts from the ancient world, recording accounts of encounters with the historical Jesus, from secular sources.  No, I can't document this, I read it in a book somewhere, and it's probably still in my personal library, yada, yada, yada.  This is the gist of it:  the man from whom the account comes, stated that Jesus had a round face like His mother.  Now if Ron Wyatt is honest in all that he says, and really did discover the Ark, the Blood, etc., then this ties in with the haploid blood cells, and all the chromosomes but the "X" chromosome must have come from Mary, and Jesus should have looked a LOT like her.

I hope I didn't turn the kaleidoscope too fast for anyone.

Laz:  We can argue if you wish.  We can debate if you wish.  I'm not saying you're wrong.  I would like to say, with all humility, you might, if you are of a mind, re-read the account.  I'm not a bio major, so what I say carries no weight.  It's just my opinion, but I think I would be remiss if I didn't remind us that, in humans, only the sperm cell, and the egg are haploids.

In a species which reproduces sexually, the blood cells must be diploid.  Humans are a species which reproduce sexually (this is my opinion, I've just not witnessed any other method).  Therefore, in order for Christ to have been truly human, his blood would have had to have been diploid.  If it wasn't, it wasn't human blood.  If it wasn't human blood which was shed for us, I don't know how it would have counted as being valid.  A lot of cow, and sheep blood had already been shed, and we still needed a 'human' to shed human blood in order for the whole substitute death to have any validity.

Again, I'm not a biologist, or a hematologist.  I encourage you to check out whether what I said is valid or not.  But I would very much encourage you to dig a little deeper.

VB, Wyatt stretched my own credulity, but with God all things are possible, even a haploid human.  I only wanted to present that information for consideration by the membership.  Wyatt's find of the site of the Red Sea crossing is marked by pillars on either shore, set up by Solomon, stating that that was the place.  His find of Noah's ark is now a national park in Turkey.  The Ark of the Covenant find is very much in mystery, and not at all easily verified.  Time will tell.

Quote from: eaglesway on February 16, 2013, 04:52:05 PM

Quote from: Molly on February 16, 2013, 08:37:26 AM
It's a different body for sure.  But, I think he was given a special body to begin with; he has only one earthly parent.  Ordinarily, that would make him a clone, except he has two parents.

He was the fulness of the Godhead bodily, but that is something that we could never be because the old wineskins that are these bodies of ours would burst--IMO.

PS He changes into his resurrected body before he dies, at the transfiguration.

So one could say that is the sort of thing that might happen at any point before the cross if he didn't control it.

Where do you get that Jesus changed into His resurrected body at the transfiguration? How was He crucified and killed dead on a cross if He was already in His resurrected body?

Jn 20:17 Jesus said to her, "Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, 'I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.'"

The scriptures say He was tempted in every way like as we are. The glory of His victory is that He overcame fron the same estate we are in. This is why we can mature into sonship by faith, because He did, and we are His disciples.

IMO Jesus was not the fulness of the Godhead until after He was resurrected, ascended and glorified- but even if He was, He was crucified as a man- no tricks, no "special edge"- just an obedient sacrifice, "taken form among men" to be our high priest (Hebrews 5).

Where do I get it?  I read it in the Bible.  [No, I just made it up for fun.]

Maybe your face shines like the sun.  Mine doesn't.

His transfiguration even affected his clothes.  So I assume it included his entire body.  The clothes are being changed by his internal radiance emanating from his body.

There he was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as the light. [Mat 17:2]

Song of Solomon 6:10 Who is this that appears like the dawn, fair as the moon, bright as the sun, majestic as the stars in procession?

and his clothes became dazzling white, far whiter than any earthly bleach could ever make them.  Mark 9:3

Daniel 7:9 "As I looked, "thrones were set in place, and the Ancient of Days took his seat. His clothing was as white as snow; the hair of his head was white like wool. His throne was flaming with fire, and its wheels were all ablaze.

Luke 9:29 As he was praying, the appearance of his face changed, and his clothes became as bright as a flash of lightning.



[And, he was ]

"transfigured" [before them]

G3339
μεταμορφόω
metamorphoō
met-am-or-of'-o
From G3326 and G3445; to transform (literally or figuratively "metamorphose"): - change, transfigure, transform.


It is my belief that he was allowing his disciples to see who he truly is at the transfiguration.

How was he crucified and killed dead?  He allowed it, that's how.


No one can take my life from me. I sacrifice it voluntarily. Jn 10:18

that celestial body/place prepared for us to dwell in/raised a spiritual body..is indeed in allof us.

  Father can 'turn the light up" when He desires....Look at Moses..who had to put a veil

  on because of it 'frightening' the people.  And when He appears..we shall be just like Him.

    and how shall we all be just like Him?  for as all have bore the image of the corruptible..

   so,too,shall all bear the image of the incorruptible...it is sown a natural body and raised

   a spiritual body.   We are fearfully[in corrupt image] and wonderfully[incorruptible image]made

Quote: "It is my belief that he was allowing his disciples to see who he truly is at the transfiguration."


I think I agree with that.. just before then, He had told His disciples some would see "the Kingdom" ..next thing is the transfiguration, when they didn't know what to say and the last line of the account "and they saw Jesus only".. Or and then there was Jesus only.. This to me goes along with psalm 2 where the Father says "this is the decree... ...the Son"

I don't think he had a corruptible body for He had no sin, no imperfection (which is the opposite of life/God). And I don't think any humans will be "glorified" until the 1st resurrection at His return, for it says "this mortal will 'put on' immortality" which to me also means, or includes, this im-perfect will 'put on' perfection. And "the corruptible will 'put on' incorruptible". [Incorruptible because until 'the change' we are still mortal, still imperfect, meaning with a degree of corruption or able to corrupt (imo, imperfect and imperfection).

I know you read the bible Molly, but there is no place in it that says Jesus received His glorified body at the mount of transfiguration. All the reasons you offer are just that, reasons and opinions- which was what we are here for so no problem. But I just think that is Christian religious mytholgy. Jesus died as a man. He offered Himself willingly but He was nevertheless murdered by cruel and wicked hands, put to death.

Acts 2:23
Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

IMO, Jesus died a human death and was then declared with power to be the son of God by the resurrection of the dead because He pleased God. His sharing our ignoble experience of life in the flesh and death is a major planck of the gospel message. He became fully like us so that we could become fully like Him. He wasnt like Hercules. He was limited to HUMANITY+FAITH+THE SPIRIT, just like we are, which is why He is able to function as our high priest and is the author of our eternal salvation and author &the finisher of our faith.

Acts 7:52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:

IMO glorified bodies don't die. Glorified means eternal, immortal- as Jesus said, "Like the angels in heaven".

Ac 17:31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

Heb 5:7,8 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared; Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;

Quote from: eaglesway on February 16, 2013, 11:12:22 PM
IMO, Jesus died a human death and was then declared with power to be the son of God by the resurrection of the dead because He pleased God.

Eagle ... don't mean to stop your momentum here, but are you saying that Jesus somehow earned his godhood?

...are you of the opinion Jesus existed with the Father before His 1st advent? (He prayed reveal to them the glory i had with you before.. Jn 17(?) I suppose His body was fallible/corruptible but not His nature/character..

Quote from: EagleswayI know you read the bible Molly, but there is no place in it that says Jesus received His glorified body at the mount of transfiguration. All the reasons you offer are just that, reasons and opinions- which was what we are here for so no problem. But I just think that is Christian religious mytholgy. Jesus died as a man. He offered Himself willingly but He was nevertheless murdered by cruel and wicked hands, put to death.

If what I said is Christian religious mythology, it's news to me.  Maybe what I said is molly mythology, but it is my opinion and mine alone.  I didn't take it from anyone else.  I thought I knew who Jesus was and then I started reading the Bible.  When I first saw the transfiguration, IT KNOCKED MY SOCKS OFF.  What was this?  Why had no one spoken about this in church?   Has anyone ever been to a church where they gave a sermon on the transfiguration?  I've never even heard one such sermon.  People don't seem to know how to deal with it.

I did not say or mean to say that he received his glorified body at that time.  I said he shows it to us, at that time.  Presumably, he could have shown it to us at any time.  But, he picks that time, at tabernacles, amongst his closest disciples.  It was always available to him.

IMO, this is not the same as Moses having the shechinah when he comes down the mountain from talking to God.  Jesus is the self existant one.  He is God.

More molly mythology:  Yes Jesus died as a man but it was because he choose to and because he humbled himself.   If I kneel down to talk to a toddler in a hushed voice, it does not mean I cannot also stand up, tower over him, and shout.  It means I have come down to his level by choice.  Now it may be that I find I have to learn some patience and do a lot more of this until the toddler is through the terrible twos, but it will still be by my choice.  It doesn't mean I have suddenly turned into a midget who can only talk baby talk.


And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.  Phil 2:8



Yes, Marie, I agree he existed with the Father before his birth, if that is what you are asking.


In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.

3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.



[14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

15 John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.

--John 1

Quote from: Molly on February 17, 2013, 01:13:39 AM
I did not say or mean to say that he received his glorified body at that time.  I said he shows it to us, at that time.  Presumably, he could have shown it to us at any time.  But, he picks that time, at tabernacles, amongst his closest disciples.  It was always available to him.

Was He then always in it, and just masking it to those around Him?

Quote from: VineBranch on February 17, 2013, 01:19:09 AM

Quote from: Molly on February 17, 2013, 01:13:39 AM
I did not say or mean to say that he received his glorified body at that time.  I said he shows it to us, at that time.  Presumably, he could have shown it to us at any time.  But, he picks that time, at tabernacles, amongst his closest disciples.  It was always available to him.

Was He then always in it, and just masking it to those around Him?

Sorry, I misunderstood.  No he was not always in his glorified body.  But he always had access to all the power of the Godhead, whether he used it or not--his choice.

Quote from: Molly on February 17, 2013, 01:23:52 AM

Quote from: VineBranch on February 17, 2013, 01:19:09 AM

Quote from: Molly on February 17, 2013, 01:13:39 AM
I did not say or mean to say that he received his glorified body at that time.  I said he shows it to us, at that time.  Presumably, he could have shown it to us at any time.  But, he picks that time, at tabernacles, amongst his closest disciples.  It was always available to him.

Was He then always in it, and just masking it to those around Him?

Sorry, I misunderstood.  No he was not always in his glorified body.  But he always had access to all the power of the Godhead, whether he used it or not--his choice.

Ah, thanks, that makes more sense to me, sorry to be so slow.

It sometimes (like right now) surprises me how people on this forum can go confidently right to the edge of some theological (or even theo-illogical) issue which normal clergy will dismiss as "Well, that's a mystery..."

Well, that's a mystery Laz.

I didn't know you were a clergyman, VB.  :laughing7:

Quote from: Lazarus Short on February 17, 2013, 03:38:43 AM
I didn't know you were a clergyman, VB.  :laughing7:

Put em up!! :laugh:

Quote from: VineBranch on February 17, 2013, 03:52:57 AM

Quote from: Lazarus Short on February 17, 2013, 03:38:43 AM
I didn't know you were a clergyman, VB.  :laughing7:

Put em up!! :laugh:

Why?  Because you're going to rob me??  Now I KNOW you're clergy... :doh:

Quote from: Lazarus Short on February 17, 2013, 03:55:14 AM
Why?  Because you're going to rob me??  Now I KNOW you're clergy... :doh:

I thought I would simply take everything away.  Then when you were starving and cold, I would give a piece of bread so you could see how concerned I am for your welfare.  Don't hate me because I love you too much to let you starve.

Thank you for the crust of bread, sir!  Can I have another?

Quote from: Lazarus Short on February 17, 2013, 04:09:12 AM
Thank you for the crust of bread, sir!  Can I have another?

Nope.  You'll abuse it and then think yourself worthy of the bread.  I decide when you eat.   Now leave me alone, I'm ever so important you know.

15 John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.

--John 1




He that cometh after me is

"preferred" [before me]

G1096
γίνομαι
ginomai
ghin'-om-ahee
A prolonged and middle form of a primary verb; to cause to be ("gen" -erate), that is, (reflexively) to become (come into being), used with great latitude (literally, figuratively, intensively, etc.): - arise be assembled, be (come, -fall, -have self), be brought (to pass), (be) come (to pass), continue, be divided, be done, draw, be ended, fall, be finished, follow, be found, be fulfilled, + God forbid, grow, happen, have, be kept, be made, be married, be ordained to be, partake, pass, be performed, be published, require, seem, be showed, X soon as it was, sound, be taken, be turned, use, wax, will, would, be wrought.



hoti ēn prōtos mou





"for he"
G3754
οτι
hoti
hot'-ee
Neuter of G3748 as conjugation; demonstrative that (sometimes redundant); causatively because: - as concerning that, as though, because (that), for (that), how (that), (in) that, though, why.


"was"

G2258
nν
ēn
ane
Imperfect of G1510; I (thou, etc.) was (wast or were): - + agree, be, X have (+ charge of), hold, use, was (-t), were.


"before"

G4413
πρωτος
prōtos
pro'-tos
Contracted superlative of G4253; foremost (in time, place, order or importance): - before, beginning, best, chief (-est), first (of all), former.


"me"

G3450
μου
mou
moo
The simpler from of G1700; of me: - I, me, mine (own), my.

Quote from: Molly on February 17, 2013, 01:13:39 AM
Maybe what I said is molly mythology...

That would be "Mollyology" (folly dolly, by goof 'n' by gooly, jolly Mollyology!)

Quote from: Molly on February 17, 2013, 01:23:52 AM

Quote from: VineBranch on February 17, 2013, 01:19:09 AM

Quote from: Molly on February 17, 2013, 01:13:39 AM
I did not say or mean to say that he received his glorified body at that time.  I said he shows it to us, at that time.  Presumably, he could have shown it to us at any time.  But, he picks that time, at tabernacles, amongst his closest disciples.  It was always available to him.

Was He then always in it, and just masking it to those around Him?

Sorry, I misunderstood.  No he was not always in his glorified body.  But he always had access to all the power of the Godhead, whether he used it or not--his choice.

I don't think so, I hate to repeat myself, but IMO He overcame as a man and that is the glory of His cross. :o)

But a man that had continuos, immediate access to his Father. Con tinuos fellowship with the creator of the universe until the cross.
...and a man born of sinless blood.

Absolutely He had access, just like we do(after we are born of God), through the Spirit of God. His "sinlessness" made His access much greater than ours- but, and again I am only stating my opinion, to me the scriptures show that he overcame through obedience to God with-in all the limitations of humanity. Only thus is He an appropriate high priest. He was not like Hercules or some kind of hybrid man. He was a righteous man born of God.  The idea that he was not tempted, did not suffer from the slings and arrows of the rejection of His people, did not get indigestion, etc.- to me that is all stained glass pictorials from orthodox Christian myths.

I do not believe Jesus was super-man just barely holding Himself back form flexing His might every day.

He rose early. He prayed Himself full of that which He had spent in ministry from His human frame in weakness and in tears, weeping working, laughing- sometimes yelling and rebuking. He was a man who subjected all His passions to His love for His Father and for all of us.

K, Eagle, you've convinced me:  I'm about as stupid as they come.  I don't wish to offer any disrespect; I honestly don't understand.  Maybe there is a Dummies book I could check.  I just don't get it.

(a) "...to me the scriptures show that he overcame through obedience to God with-in all the limitations of humanity. Only thus is He an appropriate high priest."

I asked you before if Christ earned His godhood.  Now I need to ask, did Christ earn his priesthood?  Is He not worthy to be an appropriate high priest because He is God?  Did I miss it again?

(b) "He was a righteous man born of God."

Does that mean He wasn't God as well?  Paul said there was none righteous, so if he was righteous would he have had to be God?

(c) "I do not believe Jesus was super-man just barely holding Himself back form flexing His might every day."

(d) "He prayed Himself full of that which He had spent in ministry from His human frame in weakness and in tears, weeping working, laughing- sometimes yelling and rebuking."

If he was so mighty he had to hold himself back, how come he got spent during the day he was holding himself back from flexing His might?

ordinary man? that calms the storm, walks on water, heals the sick and raises the dead... :dontknow:

In the form of man?  Yes.  An ordinary man?  No.   But, enough like us to show us the Way.



The disciples were amazed. "Who is this man?" they asked. "Even the winds and waves obey him!"

--Mat 8:27

Quote from: eaglesway on February 17, 2013, 07:32:29 PM

Quote from: Molly on February 17, 2013, 01:23:52 AM

Quote from: VineBranch on February 17, 2013, 01:19:09 AM

Quote from: Molly on February 17, 2013, 01:13:39 AM
I did not say or mean to say that he received his glorified body at that time.  I said he shows it to us, at that time.  Presumably, he could have shown it to us at any time.  But, he picks that time, at tabernacles, amongst his closest disciples.  It was always available to him.

Was He then always in it, and just masking it to those around Him?

Sorry, I misunderstood.  No he was not always in his glorified body.  But he always had access to all the power of the Godhead, whether he used it or not--his choice.

I don't think so, I hate to repeat myself, but IMO He overcame as a man and that is the glory of His cross. :o)

I"m not disagreeing with you on that point.   But...I could die on the cross all day long, and it really wouldn't help you one bit.

Quote from: ded2daworld on February 17, 2013, 09:40:23 PM
ordinary man? that calms the storm, walks on water, heals the sick and raises the dead... :dontknow:

Ordinary man?  Not at all, but He did tell His disciples, ordinary men, that they would so just as much, and more so.

Quote from: Lazarus Short on February 17, 2013, 11:32:59 PM

Quote from: ded2daworld on February 17, 2013, 09:40:23 PM
ordinary man? that calms the storm, walks on water, heals the sick and raises the dead... :dontknow:

Ordinary man?  Not at all, but He did tell His disciples, ordinary men, that they would so just as much, and more so.

But only because of him.

Yes, and that's one reason why He was not an "ordinary" man.

Quote from: Molly on February 17, 2013, 10:14:46 PM

Quote from: eaglesway on February 17, 2013, 07:32:29 PM

Quote from: Molly on February 17, 2013, 01:23:52 AM

Quote from: VineBranch on February 17, 2013, 01:19:09 AM

Quote from: Molly on February 17, 2013, 01:13:39 AM
I did not say or mean to say that he received his glorified body at that time.  I said he shows it to us, at that time.  Presumably, he could have shown it to us at any time.  But, he picks that time, at tabernacles, amongst his closest disciples.  It was always available to him.

Was He then always in it, and just masking it to those around Him?

Sorry, I misunderstood.  No he was not always in his glorified body.  But he always had access to all the power of the Godhead, whether he used it or not--his choice.

I don't think so, I hate to repeat myself, but IMO He overcame as a man and that is the glory of His cross. :o)

I"m not disagreeing with you on that point.   But...I could die on the cross all day long, and it really wouldn't help you one bit.

I agree entirely. I didnt say Jesus was "ordinary". On the contrary, He was/is the express image of God, the radiance of the Fathers nature. But He was limited by His humanity, and died as a man(God can't die/never has died).

Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

--Acts 20:28

Jesus was definitely His blood. The blood comes through the seed of the Father.

The sinless blood of God. The JW's translate that verse "the blood of his own" to try to prove Jesus was ONLY the son of God and that Jesus was "a" god and the Father is "the" God. That Jesus is a lesser God and the Father is the one true God.
Oy vay what a tangled web when we try to make scripture fit doctrine rather than make doctrine fit scripture.
Come to think of it, make scripture fit doctrine? Sounds like what ET people have to do.

The Spirit is God's guarantee that he will give us the inheritance he promised and that he has purchased us to be his own people. He did this so we would praise and glorify him.

--Eph 1:14

LET ALL THE ANGELS OF GOD WORSHIP HIM [Heb 1:6]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-PxIgZYxGk

Quote from: ded2daworld on February 18, 2013, 11:15:56 AM
The sinless blood of God. The JW's translate that verse "the blood of his own" to try to prove Jesus was ONLY the son of God and that Jesus was "a" god and the Father is "the" God. That Jesus is a lesser God and the Father is the one true God.
Oy vay what a tangled web when we try to make scripture fit doctrine rather than make doctrine fit scripture.
Come to think of it, make scripture fit doctrine? Sounds like what ET people have to do.

Nice ded.  I usually hear it as wicked web, but you nailed Scott's adjective in your paraphrase.  Impressive!!

Quote from: ded2daworld on February 18, 2013, 11:15:56 AM
The sinless blood of God. The JW's translate that verse "the blood of his own" to try to prove Jesus was ONLY the son of God and that Jesus was "a" god and the Father is "the" God. That Jesus is a lesser God and the Father is the one true God.
Oy vay what a tangled web when we try to make scripture fit doctrine rather than make doctrine fit scripture.
Come to think of it, make scripture fit doctrine? Sounds like what ET people have to do.

That's why I like the translation of John 1

14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

monogenous   easy enough to read, 'mono' -unique, only, singular.... 'genous'  -offspring, son, progeny

Jesus is the firstborn of many bretrhen, the seed of us all, the only seed, there was none before, there will be none after like Him as the firstborn, but there will be many like Him as sons, converted, redefined, remade, transformed, renewed in His image through the implantation of the seed(receive the word implanted....begotten again by an incoruptible seed unto a fervent love of the brethren)


Jn 1:12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

When I'm alone and no one is listening.  I sometimes read John 1:14, and because the Greek word is skenoo (related to tent), I say it out loud '... and the word was made flesh and tabernacled among us'.  Maybe it's a way of keeping the word in a Hebrew context, maybe it's senility.

I vote for hewbrew senility :laugh:

Quote from: ded2daworld on February 19, 2013, 03:33:47 AM
I vote for hewbrew senility :laugh:

LOL