Beautiful Heresy Forums...

[willieH]

willieH: Hi everyone...  :cloud9:

Just wanted to post a link to the Beautiful Heresy Forum... if you might be looking for other boards to participate in discussion...

It is a great board with much potential for discussion!  Here it is:

http://euniversalism.forum5.com/index.php

There are a few members from TM there (Firstborn888 ["glowzandra"], for one! and myself!), and a few others which have been members here in the past...

It is trying to stay afloat, so come visit, and join in if you will, whenever GOD might move you to do so...

Anyhoo... thanks...  :ty:

peacE...
willieH   :ok:

[jabcat]

Hi Bro Willi...I've been occasionally involved over there for awhile.  Do you ever have any conerns about and/or run into some things you have to filter pretty closely,  due to an accepted lack of respect for the authenticity and inspiration of scripture?  That's been my experience; not that there's not some good discussion at times, or good people, etc., but again, a bit more of an "anything goes" culture?

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Brother James... :hithere:

Hi Bro Willi...I've been occasionally involved over there for awhile.  Do you ever have any conerns about and/or run into some things you have to filter pretty closely,  due to an accepted lack of respect for the authenticity and inspiration of scripture?  That's been my experience; not that there's not some good discussion at times, or good people, etc., but again, a bit more of an "anything goes" culture?

I have noticed that people over there are well-read on their beliefs, regardless if I find disagreement with some of them...

A guy named Brian Smith is the owner, and he and I have had spirited conversation in the past on that board!  ...I think he's a good guy, and he does know his beliefs (has Scriptural foundation) and thereby believes what he knows...  He is not an orthodox believer, but, as do many, has a few straggling beliefs connected to it...

Bryon has been a member there (Firstborn888), as have a few others from TM...

I hope you come over there once & awhile, and join in the talks, brother J...  :cloud9:

peacE...
willieH   :ok:

[jabcat]

Hey there Bro Willi.  Yeah, I've interacted with Brian before...always quite civilly.  He seems like a geniunely nice guy.  The thing that did concern me though about the forum, was that age old story...discussing God and the "things of God", while having a tendency at times to leave scripture and scriptural backing out of it.  You know, don't confuse a UR/spiritual discussion with what the Bible truly says  :mshock:...."it makes sense to me, so that's what I believe".  For example, I remember one post (I think I know from who, but not 100% positive, so I'll leave it out---no one here) along the lines of, "even if scripture said something different from what I believe about the topic, I'd still choose to believe what I believe".  Just one small example, but one that stuck in my head.  I'd be just fine with that if it was a forum to discuss, say, vintage cars...but when it's things of God (and I know you're the same way), don't give me what your (and mine) carnal mind/reasoning says...let's go to scripture, then pray for it to be spirit-revealed.  Then, we've got something!  :thumbsup:.

OK, I won't plan to have a lot more to say about this...expressing my thoughts, moving on...maybe some good folks like you and others will have a positive influence over there.  My personal opinion is, a) I can either be a part of a "good" thing, b) try to make a positive difference in a "bad" thing, or c) not spend my time "eating a meal together" there.  That's the way I am, but everyone has their own personality and calling.  But in general, I really don't care so much if someone believes in UR, if they're also willing to blatantly toss out/deny/disrespect their own selected parts of the rest of scripture.  Then it sounds like "just their opinion"...based on...."what"?  Everybody's got a thousand opinions.  I believe we need to know what "thus saith the Lord". :soap:   :nod:.

Anyway, maybe God will use you to shine your light over there.  You've got what it takes to take a stand.  I mainly just wanted to put in a word to others, especially perhaps those new in the faith, for spiritual discernment.  God's Spirit will lead.

God's blessing, James.

[martincisneros]

It's getting 10X easier for me to fellowship with an ETer that genuinely believes the Scriptures from cover to cover to be the precise Word of God than for me to fellowship with anyone that dismisses much of the Scriptures.  What fellowship has light with darkness?  What agreement has the temple of God with idols?  I used to find unbelievers more pleasant company than ETers, but now, as my love for the Word has been deepening and as the Christ of the Scriptures has been revealing more of the Scriptures to me, people that blow off much of the Scriptures as being corrupted are on my last nerves.

[jabcat]

people that blow off much of the Scriptures as being corrupted are on my last nerves.

:rolllol:   Understood.  Unfortunately to much of those naming the Name, even if a person is pleasant, flexible, tolerant, (individually) non-judgmental...but (gasp) actually stands for the authority, reliability, and inspiration of scripture...then that person is considered to be unpleasant, inflexible, intolerant, and judgmental.  Pretty sad state of affairs.  Also unfortunately, I believe I see that to a high degree in some UR circles...it's as if the freedom to question tradition, ET, etc., also gives the freedom to question the whole of scripture, including its authenticity and believability...as if scripture's relevance has anything whatsoever to do with our opinion or judgment of it.   :pointlaugh:  Sometimes we're so silly.

[WhiteWings]

Also unfortunately, I believe I see that to a high degree in some UR circles...it's as if the freedom to question tradition, ET, etc., also gives the freedom to question the whole of scripture, including its authenticity and believability...as if scripture's relevance has anything whatsoever to do with our opinion or judgment of it.   :pointlaugh:  Sometimes we're so silly.

Maybe people don't question the original words/scripture but the translations of it that we call Bible?
There is disagreement on what books should or should not be in the Bible.
There is disagreement on the translation of words.
Etc.
So I think its often better to say people question what's left of the original (meaning of the) words.

[Paul Hazelwood]

From my observations people dismiss the interpretation that someone is presenting more so than the scriptures themselves.

I have not had one objection from anyone when I tell them that if UR is true then God is the one that will bring it.   Believers that encounter the resistance I observe have similar ET mentalities when it comes to sharing.  They believe that the rules and authority of scripture must be adhered to by the non believer before Christ is even a factor in thier belief process.

So sure,  the message now,  isn't turn or burn, but turn or we really do not want to be around you and if we had our way we'd execute you for sinning.

Polished turds anyone?

[jabcat]

Also unfortunately, I believe I see that to a high degree in some UR circles...it's as if the freedom to question tradition, ET, etc., also gives the freedom to question the whole of scripture, including its authenticity and believability...as if scripture's relevance has anything whatsoever to do with our opinion or judgment of it.   :pointlaugh:  Sometimes we're so silly.

Maybe people don't question the original words/scripture but the translations of it that we call Bible?
There is disagreement on what books should or should not be in the Bible.
There is disagreement on the translation of words.
Etc.
So I think its often better to say people question what's left of the original (meaning of the) words.

Hi WW and Paul...I agree, sometimes it's better, when it's the case as you describe.  However, what I've said in this case is very much what I mean.  I've observed and been in multiple discussions where people say many parts of scripture are not of God, from God, and just man's report about God, etc; not inspired, not accurate, not authentic...  What I'm talking about has virtually nothing to do with translations.  I'm one to absolutely know and state that's an issue.  However, if I say to you "the god in the Old Testament is not Jesus' Father, that god is schizophrenic, he's a sick puppy, that's just the Jews' opinion they've written in the Bible...and when Paul reportedly said X, Y, Z, well that can't be true, because it doesn't fit with my idea of God, etc., etc.". 

That's what I'm addressing...it's been a real issue, and still is in some places.  Consider this...why do you suppose we now have a clear guideline of "respect for scripture" here at TM?  It's because that hasn't always been the case, and things got very disrespectful of scripture ..and if you did take a strong scriptural stance, and spoke up too much, you were attacked/vilified.  I've got first-hand experience, and as John McCain said, I've got the scars to prove it  :laughing7:.  (This is my second time of being here at TM)  There's a much different atmosphere here now than in the past...and again, in my previous posts, I expressed things I've experienced first hand at other forums as well.  If you need a second witness, I believe Martin can testify :wink1:. Much of the anti-scriptural stuff is no longer available on the TM boards, it has been removed.

So no, I don't mean translational issues, inerrancy of any translations we have now, etc.  I'm talking about a whole different animal that I've been involved up to my ears in...that generally/in many ways, scripture can't be believed, isn't reliable, much less inspired as it says it is.  Again dear brothers, my comments were to hopefully help a new believer or one not very established, enter with their eyes open if they were to go to BH Forum... And I'm joyful that things here are much better, IMO, and are on a really positive note...and I guess that's what we really need to focus on, huh?  :thumbsup: God's blessing, James.

[rosered]

Polished turds anyone?

  ha ha ha ! I have not heard that in a long time Paul , my dad used to say that  about    self righteous religious hypocricy  in its finest hour . :laughing7:  He also said no matter how   hard you try to shine it up on the outside , it is still a turd ..     thanks for the memories bro ... :thumbsup:

[rosered]

  Hi James and Willie  brothers
     
I just think it is hard to express   things in the Spiritual 
I love the Word of God , but  i am changing all the time and the WORD remains the same
   so I find it very hard to communticate with folks , I am a much better to talk to   than writer  :mblush:
  I love you all have  sweet dreams 
and thank bro Willie  for the invite 
  I dont go hardly  on any foums any more , just this one mostly  and have  posted more  than I ever did   in awhile  and CF very little these days    have a great evening 

[reFORMer]

Polished turds anyone?

  ha ha ha ! I have not heard that in a long time Paul , my dad used to say that  about    self righteous religious hypocricy  in its finest hour . :laughing7:  He also said no matter how   hard you try to shine it up on the outside , it is still a turd ..     thanks for the memories bro ... :thumbsup:

You do know (don't you?) that the Moslems actually have silver plated turds of Mohammed.

[WhiteWings]

I've observed and been in multiple discussions where people say many parts of scripture are not of God, from God, and just man's report about God, etc; not inspired, not accurate, not authentic...

I understand what you mean but I still think that is possibly partly on translations.
I wasn't around on the old TM so I can only guess what was said about the Bible.
All I'm trying to say there is a huge difference in calling the Bible a comic book written by a few drunk nomads or saying that due to translantions errors crept in and therefore no longer is the complete inspired word of God.
And I'm even keep it nice here by using the word error and not deliberately forcing a doctrine into a translation.
Translating a book with so many hidden levels is simply impossible IMO.
I sometimes even have problems translating between Dutch and English. Both modern languages. Same type of society etc.
But sometimes certain 'feelings' can't be translated between those languges.
Hebrew-English is even worse. Different culture. Different type of langues etc.
Then different translations are made. None are perfect. None have preserved 100% of Gods word.
People get in a heated debate about a verse that's translated differently. And of course 'the other' Bible is always wrong.

I'm aware I sorta repeated my earlier post and you speak aboutridiculing the Bible. But IMO translations are the start of many ridiculing....
Just Google for 'bible contradictions'; you'll find many sites making fun of verse-a stating 400 horses and verse-B stating 4000 horses. Then people say if the Bible is inpired by an almighty God how can He make such stupid mistakes.
So basicly I'm saying small translation errors can lead to big insults...

[rosered]

Polished turds anyone?

  ha ha ha ! I have not heard that in a long time Paul , my dad used to say that  about    self righteous religious hypocricy  in its finest hour . :laughing7:  He also said no matter how   hard you try to shine it up on the outside , it is still a turd ..     thanks for the memories bro ... :thumbsup:

  .

You do know (don't you?) that the Moslems actually have silver plated turds of Mohammed.

 
Hi James  , thanks for the info ,  No, brother I did not know that ! It  now  makes perfect sense to me   though!    Beelzebub The Greek equivalent is 'Beelzeboul' which means 'dung god' or 'god of the dung heaps'.

who judges who  right here it is those whom their gods/idols /sons  are the  judges of all nations .
Luk 11:19 And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your sons cast [them] out? therefore shall they be your judges.
  But if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you.

  I always wondered why Jesus said this   the way He did ? , it has been perplexing till just now!    a light bulb come on , I love  that Spiritual  connection !
  I remember the Philistines  making gold hemerroids  and mice as an offering   when they stole  the Ark  from its place ,
I find it  strange what  many peoples , tounges and nations  bow down and enslave themselves  with  and worship  :mshock:

[jabcat]

I've observed and been in multiple discussions where people say many parts of scripture are not of God, from God, and just man's report about God, etc; not inspired, not accurate, not authentic...

I understand what you mean but I still think that is possibly partly on translations.
I wasn't around on the old TM so I can only guess what was said about the Bible.
All I'm trying to say there is a huge difference in calling the Bible a comic book written by a few drunk nomads or saying that due to translantions errors crept in and therefore no longer is the complete inspired word of God.
And I'm even keep it nice here by using the word error and not deliberately forcing a doctrine into a translation.
Translating a book with so many hidden levels is simply impossible IMO.
I sometimes even have problems translating between Dutch and English. Both modern languages. Same type of society etc.
But sometimes certain 'feelings' can't be translated between those languges.
Hebrew-English is even worse. Different culture. Different type of langues etc.
Then different translations are made. None are perfect. None have preserved 100% of Gods word.
People get in a heated debate about a verse that's translated differently. And of course 'the other' Bible is always wrong.

I'm aware I sorta repeated my earlier post and you speak aboutridiculing the Bible. But IMO translations are the start of many ridiculing....
Just Google for 'bible contradictions'; you'll find many sites making fun of verse-a stating 400 horses and verse-B stating 4000 horses. Then people say if the Bible is inpired by an almighty God how can He make such stupid mistakes.
So basicly I'm saying small translation errors can lead to big insults...

Yeah, translational issues can be MAJOR thing, which I think is crucial to discuss and learn about.  I think that's part of how God continues to reveal Himself..."glory of God to conceal....honor of kings to search out a matter".

I'm mostly talking though about what I would see as more blatant, harmful, destructive deceit, by those that are "deceiving and being deceived", as Apostle Paul said....which unfortunately does occur here and there...not going on here right now, but giving what may hopefully be a helpful "be aware" if anyone may need it.  If no one needs it, then we're much better off than I realize. :thumbsup:.  James.

[reFORMer]

Q: "Should we form universalist congregations?"

A: "NO! To be honest the whole idea makes me shudder with horror. In the list of things that are essential for a good church, teaching universalism is WAY down on the list. Indeed, a church that formed itself to be a 'universalist' congregation (a doctrine) makes me imagine that it would spend a lot of its time preaching about universalism and so on (forgive me if I am wrong). God spare us from that!

I want to be part of a church that is Trinitarian, Christ-centered, Spirit-filled, missional and loves people (largely presented here as doctrinal distinctions). If they also happen to teach universalism (in appropriate contexts - see my post on Origen) then great. Indeed, I would like it that they did. But if they taught eternal conscious torment then I'd rather be with them than a church that was all about universalism.

Don't get me wrong. I really do think that universalism is true (and I rejoice in it!) and I'd be very happy to be part of a church that was evangelical universalist (a doctrinal distinction) so long as the universalism was simmering away in its background. It is simply that I think we need to put universalism in its place. It is good news. It is important but it is not fundamental to healthy and obedient Christian living. Indeed some of the best churches I know believe in eternal conscious torment. Bless them Lord!" - Gregory MacDonald

I hi-lighted in blue, with a few added black comments another aberration in current church practice that has me not participating:  they are almost entirely audiences for professional preachers.  The Protestant way of doing church in France is called aller 'a sermon.  That is not being the body of Christ.  Besides, these pulpiteers are so dumbed down they're boring.  Whether that's due to appealing to the lowest common denominator or laziness, I'd say both.  (They certainly don't teach Scripture, book by book as God gave it to us.  Again, is this because they think to please the people and it isn't desired by them; or, is this laziness, that they're unwilling to study Scripture, original languages and history of interpretation?  This is important to this topic because 97% of Christians don't read the Bible.)  All that Jesus is and does is in each of us.  How will we mature, becoming available to Him, except we all participate and judge one another?


Quote:  It is simply that I think we need to put universalism in its place. It is good news. It is important but it is not fundamental to healthy and obedient Christian living.

According to the list of "rudimentary elements of the oracles of God" (Heb 5:12) our "foundation" (Heb 6:1,) roughly half, the last 3 in the list, doesn't exist for most believers.  All you'll get from popular Christian programming on T.V. or radio is the first 2  over and over, contrary to what God tells us to do.  1st, repentance from dead works and 2nd, faith on God, over and over when He says this should not be.  We are to get it laid and get on with it, on into the finishing work, or maturity.  The 3rd, baptizings is too controversial so they avoid it.  The 4th, laying on of hands, rather than practiced by babes, this being "rudimentary" or, "milk," is only practised by some possessor of the pulpit or variously titled religious bureaucrat.  If a healing or a prophecy comes through ordinary believers when they participate, laying on hands, they're ready to exercise this when in the world.  5th is resurrection of the dead, something relegated to Jesus 2,000 years ago or in the never present future.  This for Paul was was the one thing he did, he was running in the race against death to attain to the "out resurrection, out from among the dead."  His goal, what he was pursuing as the consumation of his discipleship was, "The prize of God's calling above in Christ Jesus," that is, to be summoned into a higher dimension in Christ, which was also understood to, "Transfigure the body of our humiliation, to conform it to the body of His glory..." (Phil 3)  Of course 6th, what KJV calls, "eternal judgement," more literally meaning, "the setting of things right appropriate to the age in which they occur," or, "judgement eonian" (CLV,) is non-existent.  Most are a bunch of brain dead ninnies, parroting what they've been told by people who are themselves only repeating what they heard without looking it up in the Scripture.  They're never taught to use a concordance.  They expect an undeserved infinitude for everybody, ceasless torture for ever, which no man could ever earn, and infinite and unending perfect bliss, all of it without any acknowledgement of reaping what is sown or even learning the meaning of justice in any application to anybody's life.

Because this is foundational to Who God is, and anything built without a foundation falls, I cannot say "...it is not fundamental to healthy and obedient Christian living."  I didn't always think this way.  I agreed mostly with the above quote from Gregory MacDonald.  Early on, for years, my manner of life agreed with Origen's advice to not share Universalism with the world or beginning Christians.  I sought to get along with other Christians and tried to not "rock the boat."  At 60 I now believe that to be really stupid and I very much regret my lack of love for God.  I was intimidated by their carnal antagonisms and covered my lack of courage with "As much as lieth within you, be at peace with all men."

God's people were in serious trouble with Him because of  "the mixed multitude."  Though many Egyptians came out with the Israelites Egypt didn't come out of their hearts.  You're better off with the little "two or more in His name" than a crowd of abortions, centaurs, half man and half beast.  If you want your life to count for something, ya' gotta' ROCK THE BOAT!!!  God will reward you if you are crazy in love with Him and tell everybody you can about the truth as it is in Jesus!  Judgement eonian is only basic baby talk.  The reason almost none of these E.T. evangelicals can get beyond a certain notch and are stuck in immaturity is they do not have the foundation.  God is not the Eternal Torturer!  Speak the truth in love.  You'll be surprised at who He gives you.  If nobody else, you'll fellowship with angels!!! I promise!!!  God's got a time when the lid is going to blow off this thing and we may live to see it!  Take that as sure prophetic word.  He will build His Church.

your brother, James M. Rohde

[alihaymeg]

Thank you James!

     I agree completely. We build our entire concept of justice around our beliefs about God. Nothing has helped me to become more tolerant and appreciate all people more than learning of God's true purpose for all of us. I know that every person is my brother or sister regardless of their beliefs or the wrongs that they have committed.

     A true revelation of the heart of God does not lead to a "do nothing" mentality. It leads to the ultimate realization that we must all become dedicated to becoming perfected in His love here and now. Yes we can do it. Yes we are to become holy as He is holy in this life. That is why we are here.

[firstborn888]

willieH: Hi everyone...  :cloud9:

Just wanted to post a link to the Beautiful Heresy Forum... if you might be looking for other boards to participate in discussion...

It is a great board with much potential for discussion!  Here it is:

http://euniversalism.forum5.com/index.php

There are a few members from TM there (Firstborn888 ["glowzandra"], for one! and myself!), and a few others which have been members here in the past...

The board was down for months and Brian has been to busy to keep it up. A good point is we can take discussions that are outside the purpose of this board over there and discuss.

[WhiteWings]

This is actually beginning to turn me off to UR forums/websites. The more time I spend with evangelical Christians who fervently pursue sound Bible teaching, the more off base a lot of the people posting here appear. And if I continue posting here, I have a sad feeling the more unpleasant, inflexible, intolerant, and judgmental I'll probably appear to many. Even though I'd probably be considered way too liberal by most of the rest of the Body of Christ.

I'm not one of the most religious types on this board but I did look around a little on other boards.
There often seem to be only two flavors to choose from.

a] Brainwashing format. -> Absolutely no room for any thoughts that are not 100% inline with the moderation crew.
b] Brainstorming format. -> More views are accepted but threads usually go off-topic very soon.

I prefer the b type of board. TM is an example of it.

[Paul Hazelwood]

However, if I say to you "the god in the Old Testament is not Jesus' Father, that god is schizophrenic, he's a sick puppy, that's just the Jews' opinion they've written in the Bible...and when Paul reportedly said X, Y, Z, well that can't be true, because it doesn't fit with my idea of God, etc., etc.". 

I think my concern here still is what in their life happened before you met these people that might cause them to take that view?  Not everyone opens up and spills out their life so that you can know that, time and time again I find that many peoples rejection of scripture  is based upon a factor of their life that was either painful, or  God just has not drawn them to believe it all yet.

I do not believe God is skitso, but, some peoples teaching of how God works can be taken that way and if these people are in a position to speak with a view of authority on scripture, then to that person they might come to think  "well, if that person is right about what the bible says, then God is a skitso"  By authority I do not mean correctness, only being in a physical position that "appears" to give their teachings more credibility. 

So I still maintain that for the most part people are finding what God is showing them and they are not sure enough about the rest of it to believe You or me or someone else about it.

We believers can get pretty high and mighty towards others really easily and it doesn't matter which theological viewpoint we embrace, it is an easy path of destruction to go down.

That's what I'm addressing...it's been a real issue, and still is in some places.  Consider this...why do you suppose we now have a clear guideline of "respect for scripture" here at TM?  It's because that hasn't always been the case, and things got very disrespectful of scripture ..and if you did take a strong scriptural stance, and spoke up too much, you were attacked/vilified.  I've got first-hand experience, and as John McCain said, I've got the scars to prove it  :laughing7:.  (This is my second time of being here at TM)  There's a much different atmosphere here now than in the past...and again, in my previous posts, I expressed things I've experienced first hand at other forums as well.  If you need a second witness, I believe Martin can testify :wink1:. Much of the anti-scriptural stuff is no longer available on the TM boards, it has been removed.

I do not have a problem with rules in a forum regaurding how scripture is handled, that is the right of every owner of a website to maintain it however they see fit.

But that has nothing to do with others.   The demand for respect of the scriptures a certain way, changed the atmosphere, but  "who" did it change?   Are the majority of the ones who demeaned the scriptures in the way that has offended people still posting?  Did they stay here and then start posting in respect to all the scriptures?

I am NOT saying that to say, just let everything go,  I am saying that, while it is fine to havbe forum rules, don't mistake those rules and forum members comfort as change in peoples hearts.

[jabcat]

Paul, I guess since I'm not going to be any more specific with who and what I'm talking about, I'll just know that I've had the direct experiences with outright deceit and trashing of scripture that I've had, and you can maintain your thoughts about your experiences. Maybe your experiences have been different, and you haven't been in the situations I've been in, and vice versa.  That's OK...I'm not going to talk you out of your experiences, and you won't talk me out of mine  :thumbsup:.  So, I'm not arguing that there are many just as you say, but I also have noted the experiences I have had. 

As I see it and as this particular mod board works, as a moderator, moderating isn't always about changing that specific person's heart.  If it does occur, great, that's of course always the best desired result.  But IMO, it's about the bigger picture of making decisions about how others may be affected, what the owner wants, the general witness of the ministry, etc.  Admittedly, there is much subjectivity involved, but someone's got to make those calls, and it's not done as just one person acting alone without any guidelines.  There are things said, conversations had, beliefs revealed often behind the scenes that would possibly make things more clear about this thread, but I'm not going to go there, it wouldn't be appropriate.   In fact, I wish I had originally left a few things out of my previous posts and just given a heads up to any "little ones" who may have needed it as was the main point of my posts, which I've reiterated several times...Oh well, we live and learn, right?  Have a good one, James.

[Paul Hazelwood]

Hi James,

Whether I talk you out of your experiences or not may depend on if what you see is all there is to see.  I won't apologize for pointing out the possibilities.  If your certain you know exactly why someone does what they do, then my perspective simply does not apply, and thats fine with me.

I have had people say some awful things about God and fortunatly over time realized that their bitterness towards their family and how they was treated was the root of those things.

I can tell you that some who I went to church with will see me as disrespecting Christs work on the cross.    I do not wish to trivialize what you experienced since you would know the person better than I.  I stand corrected if my lack of knowledge has caused me to believe incorrectly.

[jabcat]

Hi James,

Whether I talk you out of your experiences or not may depend on if what you see is all there is to see.  I won't apologize for pointing out the possibilities.  If your certain you know exactly why someone does what they do, then my perspective simply does not apply, and thats fine with me.

I have had people say some awful things about God and fortunatly over time realized that their bitterness towards their family and how they was treated was the root of those things.

I can tell you that some who I went to church with will see me as disrespecting Christs work on the cross.    I do not wish to trivialize what you experienced since you would know the person better than I.  I stand corrected if my lack of knowledge has caused me to believe incorrectly.

I understand well that our past experiences affect our current perceptions.  Sometimes if we've been injured, and even further, if some of those issues haven't been fully resolved, then it even more significantly affects our point of view.

I agree much of the time it's helpful and even necessary to take that into consideration.  Sometimes not, when again, it's blatant, unwilling to budge, and harming people. At some point, it may become irrelevant as to the psychology of the issue at hand.  I've tried to be as specific and clear as I can as to what I've been talking about, including in my very initial couple of posts.  I'm not talking about general intolerance, not giving people a chance to express their thoughts, explore them together, people having differences of opinion, understanding various scriptures differently, many people having the freedom to express many different POV's, etc. 

I would guess, in your example, you have never come out and said "Jesus' cross was unnecessary for our redemption", and that people are misunderstanding your position.   However, IMO, when it does come down to a few very basic things such as the "necessity of Jesus' death, His blood, that He is the only door to the Father, it doesn't matter what we do in this lifetime, 60% of the Bible isn't true", then as you say, I won't apologize for as best I know how, drawing a line in the sand and saying "no, I won't accept that, you're in error...let's go to scripture together".    When they persist, including saying "it doesn't matter what scripture says, you're just a bigot", at that point I think I have a pretty good idea what's driving their behavior,  and at least in some situations (moderator, position of responsibility, congregational leader, etc.) it ain't something to ignore.  That's what has had to happen in some of the instances I've repeatedly tried to clearly express.  Also, if something such as that occurs and I'm not in a position of responsibility, I can have my say, try to reason, and move on.  (Un)fortunately as a moderator, or in many other possible capacities someone may find themselves in, that's not the best option.  It needs to be dealt with. 

So...the original intent and summary statement of my post was "some forums, including BH, has to some extent, at times, had a history of espousing clearly (and sometimes more deceptively not-so-clearly) anti-scriptural teaching/opinions.  Just be aware, have your eyes open, go to scripture and 'see if those things are so'.  You may be able to be helpful there".  I'll add for clarification...."if you sense someone is hurting, not intentionally in error, not revealing themselves to be a wolf in sheep's clothing, and you can take that into consideration and lovingly try to reason with them and help them, great.  You've been a good witness and an angel of mercy.  If you try to reason, see them to be a deceiver and being deceived with full intention of continuing to do so, then do what God leads you to do...just be aware." 

James.

[willieH]

willieH: Howdy pardners... :hithere:

My suggestion stands... look for yourself at BEAUTIFUL HERESY FORUMS... and you will find as amiable and SEARCHING a crowd, as has any other forum, including this one...

When it comes down to discussion... many shall bring into the various discussions, controversial ideas...

As you might do HERE at TM... stick to what you presently KNOW, until GOD tells you differently...  :cloud9:

With GOD as your guide, and TRUSTING Him in your heart, you can walk in confidence that HE will GIVE you what you need...  :dontknow:

Any forum will have FALSE teachings amongst it... and the discussions will reveal them as GOD sees fit to reveal them, to WHOM HE CHOOSES to reveal them...

Everyone is viewing the INFINITE WORD from a FINITE perspective, so error or misunderstanding is an element found in all of us...

Go look & see... If it aint your cup of tea... dont drink it - eh?  :coffee2:

Once again, here it is:

http://euniversalism.forum5.com/index.php

peacE...
willieH   :ok:

[jabcat]

can i have some of that tea? :laughing7:...looks pretty good  :btongue: