Ok........this thread is for those who call themselves Atheists or Agnostics. It is also for those who have been Atheists, but now believe in God.
I've started this thread for Transponder, and hope he will share more of his thoughts here.
Here are some questions.......
How has being an atheist affected your life.......how has it impacted your relationships and outlook on life? How do you deal with the passing of loved ones? Is there somewhere deep down inside yourself that secretly hopes there is a good God somewhere that can make things right, and give us time with our loved ones who have passed on?
These questions are just for starters........believe me......I have lots more.
:gangel:
QuoteHow has being an atheist affected your life.......how has it impacted your relationships and outlook on life? How do you deal with the passing of loved ones? Is there somewhere deep down inside yourself that secretly hopes there is a good God somewhere that can make things right, and give us time with our loved ones who have passed on?
It is a little difficult to answer the first as I have no theist life to compare it with, other than those of others. It does not seem to make any difference as the people I interact with seem all the same unless the subject of religion comes up. Then they tend to fall into two camps; those that dismiss it all as rubbish and those that believe in God. Of those, they fall into two main groups; those that are into the Church thing and those that are not. There are many that believe in a 'god' of some sort but have little time for organized religion. Those that do, I have some lively debates with but, set the religion aside and we seem to be the same, really.
The passing of loved ones...I cannot feel sad, somehow. It is like feeling sad if the sun sets. I do feel sad, and angry if someone is badly treated or made dead before a fair slice of life, because that is something we could do something about. But a natural death is inevietable.
From what I have seen of gods, I would prefer NOT to have them about, thanks very much. An afterlife might be nice, but, if we have one, then it is as natural as birth and death and we would all get it, not just those that worship the right deity. I wonder what I would would do for all eternity? I have a lively curiosity but eternity might drag after the first million years...especially if I am supposed to spend most of it with my face in the dirt crying 'Praise! O Great One!' As for loved ones... :Sparkletooth: I'm afraid I might spend more time discussing with Socrates or asking Pol Pot what on earth he was playing at or attending the premiere of Bruckner's 1000th symphony...
:grin: :thumbsup: Thanks for sharing Transponder. I can see what you're saying..........
......I guess everything changed for me once I had kids. It made me face a lot of things about life that had never occured to me or I wasn't willing to face before. I believe that all parents who have lost a child hope that one day they will be reunited with them again. I believe that the same is true for our Father.
For my husband he does say that he "hopes" that there is an afterlife and a higher power. He doesn't commit to belief yet, but I'm glad that the hope is there.
It is hard for me to imagine that there are truly any atheists on their death beds. I would think that glimmer of hope comes calling for them in their final seconds here........that they may see that life does go on for them, but that it will be change.
quote transponder
QuoteI have a lively curiosity but eternity might drag after the first million years...
This is often the question, rightfully you have asked this. If the salt loses its savor, with what shall you season it with. How about fire? I believe that God is able to keep life good and exciting and keep us from losing our savor, else eternity would indeed be eternal torment. Just my :2c:.
P.S. if you get real bored up there, maybe another earth can be made for you, and by this you will "be excited" (I'll get my kicks from watching you from above :laughing7:)
Quote from: StainedGlass on October 18, 2007, 11:00:02 PM
:grin: :thumbsup: Thanks for sharing Transponder. I can see what you're saying..........
......I guess everything changed for me once I had kids. It made me face a lot of things about life that had never occured to me or I wasn't willing to face before. I believe that all parents who have lost a child hope that one day they will be reunited with them again. I believe that the same is true for our Father.
I don't want to probe any possible emotional wounds out there, but the need to comfort or assuage evolution's natural answer to 'how do we ensure survival of the young' when the young don't make it, is one of the reasons why religion was invented. It is a choice; to find the truth or to believe comforting myths.
QuoteFor my husband he does say that he "hopes" that there is an afterlife and a higher power. He doesn't commit to belief yet, but I'm glad that the hope is there.
As I say, an afterlife might be nice. Whether he commits to 'belief' may depend upon which religious salesman gets to him first. In the west, one of the brands of Christianity is well placed. Lifetime indoctrination counts for a lot.
QuoteIt is hard for me to imagine that there are truly any atheists on their death beds. I would think that glimmer of hope comes calling for them in their final seconds here........that they may see that life does go on for them, but that it will be change.
That is probably the reason why there are so many Christian claims that various atheists recanted on their deathbeds. I'd prefer to believe that rather than just lying. However, since this is a universalist site where everyone is going to be saved, what does it matter? If one is going to take Pascal's wager in their last minutes, perhaps Islam is a better option. Christianity, if it is true, has no hell (so we say here) but Islam, if true, certainly does. And the rewards (for men at least) are more substantial than the vague happy place promises of Christianity.
Quote from: arcticmonster2003 on October 19, 2007, 04:12:07 AM
quote transponder
QuoteI have a lively curiosity but eternity might drag after the first million years...
This is often the question, rightfully you have asked this. If the salt loses its savor, with what shall you season it with. How about fire? I believe that God is able to keep life good and exciting and keep us from losing our savor, else eternity would indeed be eternal torment. Just my :2c:.
P.S. if you get real bored up there, maybe another earth can be made for you, and by this you will "be excited" (I'll get my kicks from watching you from above :laughing7:)
This was discussed on the AN, my 'other' forum. It became pretty clear that God would have to transform us so much that we would not be the same persons anymore. The image that came into my mind was a Heaven with a load of helium-filled balloons bobbing about with huge smiles painted on.
I like the idea of another earth being made for us unbelievers, without gods and without religion. Yes; I could live with that, more rewarding than being up with your lot getting your kicks jeering at the unbelievers 'Ha! look at them wasting their time living their lives instead of banging our heads on the floor and bawling 'Alleluia' for all eternity.'. Because we certainly wouldn't be laughing or watching or even caring about your Hallelujia Henries.
quote transponder
QuoteI like the idea of another earth being made for us unbelievers, without gods and without religion. Yes; I could live with that, more rewarding than being up with your lot getting your kicks jeering at the unbelievers 'Ha! look at them wasting their time living their lives instead of banging our heads on the floor and bawling 'Alleluia' for all eternity.'. Because we certainly wouldn't be laughing or watching or even caring about your Hallelujia Henries.
:laughing7: :laughing7:
Or why make it even as boring as another Earth, perhaps you could pick a place from any one of the probable billions upon billions of planets in the universe. It might take you a million years just deciding which one you want a taste of death and forgetting on. Or perhaps their are many dimensions and universes, (if there are not then more can be created). From a christians standpoint, God can make as many layers here as he thinks is "enough", both physical and heavenly. Again, and I really can not over-emphasize this, if one is not happy and joyful and full of life in eternity then they would be experiencing the eternal torment that all of the ET'ers are always talking about. Again, I have always maintained that I do not believe any shall be saved before they accept their salvation thru Jesus, whether they do this in this life or the next, or the one after that, whether earthly or heavenly, flesh or spirit. Perhaps this is what the ET'ers are always talking about, but explaining it wrong (IMO), that until you do accept Jesus as Lord, you may well experience this eternal torment of being eternally bored, maybe God won't let you play with any of his toys :laughing7:, at least until you accept Jesus as Lord and saviour. :bigGrin:
But on a more serious note, perhaps, since you do not deem God worthy to be praised, he will simply put you in a place where he is not, until you can see that all that is life, all things that give us satifaction and pleasure and all things that are life for us originate from God, the literal absence of his spirit of life and his creations would be complete nothingness, literally darkness and blackness, more than pure eternal boredom, especially if you knew that others were having life, and having it abundantly, satisfied, curious. And it is possible that he may set a time (could be a long time) for this seperation, so that you would be sincere when you say Praise the Lord. I don't believe eternally though, but again, you seem pretty stubborn, so it probably wouldn't be a short time either.
Hey, I think I am understanding hell more all the time!
Have you ever felt the presence and love of God fall on you transponder? I assure you it is not comparable with boredom.
(its my duty to try and save, please don't take offence)
Quote from: transponderbut Islam, if true, certainly does. And the rewards (for men at least) are more substantial than the vague happy place promises of Christianity
Hey Trans
Don't you think those 70 virgins are going to be used goods by the time you get there LoL
:laughing7:
Quote from: SeekerSA on October 19, 2007, 01:48:31 PM
Hey Trans
Don't you think those 70 virgins are going to be used goods by the time you get there LoL
:laughing7:
:faint:
not sure if you might be interested transponder, but I am pretty spiritually sensitive, and I have "felt" your spirit (actually felt your lack of reverance of God within myself), and this I will say, it is most certainly going to take something big before you feel (in sincerety) (I believe you would agree, that is, that it would take something big to change your mind on this), that God is Great, and worthy of praise and worship. Remember this though, in the old days, before knowledge of God was lost among people, when a man of God would come into someone's house, if that person was not right with God in their hearts, they would plead for that man of God to leave, because God's eyes are on his servants continually, and where they go, judgements occur, here on Earth. I know you don't believe any of this, but am I to leave you unwarned and with no explantion of things to come for those who are not merely in rebellion, but proactively trying to lead God's children away from serving him? I know that you have been allowed to operate here, but I shall speak my peace, I do not think you should be allowed to make posts here, only to read them. You are making yourself an enemy and probably hundreds if not thousands of christians have read your posts, and your posts are very logical and very convincing, and many new to the faith probably read them as well, and the last time I talked to you, you made it clear that it is your Goal to "save people from their delusions that their is a god" or something like that, and you are doing this at a place where his servants should have some safety from this worlds views. IMO, this is no different than a church letting an atheist give a 10 minute speech at the end of every sermon, and then wondering why there was so much discord among the brethren. Now, I do think it is OK for an atheist to be at a church as well....just not as one who speaks infront of the congregation.
Just my :2c:
QuoteAs I say, an afterlife might be nice. Whether he commits to 'belief' may depend upon which religious salesman gets to him first. In the west, one of the brands of Christianity is well placed. Lifetime indoctrination counts for a lot.
:grin:.......man if you only knew.......we live in the bible belt.
It's going to take a lot more than that my friend......a lot more. :laughing7:
QuoteHowever, since this is a universalist site where everyone is going to be saved, what does it matter?
Yeah.......still can't figure out why this forum interests you so. :dontknow: This would be the last place my husband would be spending his time.
All I can say is........hope has a way of removing all fear of the unknown. That is why I choose hope.....helps me live my life in peace and make sense of things in this wild world we live in. You know.....my grandmother died in fear.......over 10 years ago......which was before I saw the message of UR. That scared the living daylights out of me. Made me go to a place within that I never want to experience again. That fear made me start searching for answers, and eventually led me to my belief of the salvation of all. She is at peace now and filled with Love.......just wish she could have lived and died with that hope though.........but I do believe everything happens for a reason. :2c: :HeartThrob:
Quote from: SeekerSA on October 19, 2007, 01:48:31 PM
Quote from: transponderbut Islam, if true, certainly does. And the rewards (for men at least) are more substantial than the vague happy place promises of Christianity
Hey Trans
Don't you think those 70 virgins are going to be used goods by the time you get there LoL
:laughing7:
Sultanas, so I gather. We get a handful of sultanas. 'Virgins' is apparently a mistranslation. No, the reward of living a life of forswearing alcohol is to sprawl on a couch sinking shiraz by the bucket...
Quote from: StainedGlass on October 19, 2007, 05:24:00 PM
QuoteAs I say, an afterlife might be nice. Whether he commits to 'belief' may depend upon which religious salesman gets to him first. In the west, one of the brands of Christianity is well placed. Lifetime indoctrination counts for a lot.
Quote:grin:.......man if you only knew.......we live in the bible belt.
It's going to take a lot more than that my friend......a lot more. :laughing7:
From what I heard about life in the bible belt, anyone remaining uncommitted to bornagain Christianity have must have disinterest of a remarkably strong kind.
QuoteHowever, since this is a universalist site where everyone is going to be saved, what does it matter?
QuoteYeah.......still can't figure out why this forum interests you so. :dontknow: This would be the last place my husband would be spending his time.
Like I say, it was a roundabout route. It was a work colleague of mine that started bombarding me with tracts and little religious poems. I gave my reasons for not being interested and was given a lot of claims, historic truth and the like. I had to check up the claims and the problems immediately leaped out at me. The response to that, frankly, took my breath away. I had never heard such blatant dishonesty, even from policitians.
I began reading and then internetting Theist sites and coming to understand that religious belief requires a built - in illogic. This is apologetics of a highly sophisticated order and some pretty good understanding of the subject is required in order to deal with it, and one thing that seems to be neglected in all school curricula is basic logic.
I studied the arguments on the 'Positive atheism' Internet magazine and began to e-meet other atheists and ended up on the Atheist network. After a while I began to realize that preaching to the choir and watching the oocasional theist flamer being mugged was lacking in challenge, and a jibe by a fly-by preacher 'You atheists wouldn't have the guts to post on a Christian forum' decided me to do so.
I signed on 'In pursuit of God' but got (unfairly, I think) banned. Seeker, SA, invited me to come here.
What use that is, I cannot say, but I find it very rewarding. At least I might be able to counteract some common Theist misconceptions about the goddless.
QuoteAll I can say is........hope has a way of removing all fear of the unknown. That is why I choose hope.....helps me live my life in peace and make sense of things in this wild world we live in. You know.....my grandmother died in fear.......over 10 years ago......which was before I saw the message of UR. That scared the living daylights out of me. Made me go to a place within that I never want to experience again. That fear made me start searching for answers, and eventually led me to my belief of the salvation of all. She is at peace now and filled with Love.......just wish she could have lived and died with that hope though.........but I do believe everything happens for a reason. :2c: :HeartThrob:
We all have to find ways of dealing with the often bewildering life we have. I find it quite as effective to accept that there is no real deal and it is up to us to make life as worthwhile as we can. That's one problem I have with religion, it can lead to a view that this life is not to be made worthwhile, it should be regarded as prepping for the one - shot exam.
That's a hearty ol' post, my Arctic pal. I shall have a look through both. It may be just an 'Ok, whatever suits you' matter.
I can understand that you don't think I should be allowed to post. I said to Seeker (SA) when I signed in, that, if I was requested by the Mods to stop posting, I would do it, so I suggest that you take it up with them. Until then, I intend to remain, 'Polite, but not silent'.
Thanks for sharing Trans. You know.... I've had some personal experiences that keep me seeking answers. I think a seeking mind is good.......keeps one from becoming stagnate in their own beliefs.
IMO Trans.......life is a never ending adventure, and this life is just as important as the next.
Is Today more important than Tomorrow......
Perhaps! :wink2: :HeartThrob:
Quote from: StainedGlass on October 19, 2007, 10:41:30 PM
Thanks for sharing Trans. You know.... I've had some personal experiences that keep me seeking answers. I think a seeking mind is good.......keeps one from becoming stagnate in their own beliefs.
IMO Trans.......life is a never ending adventure, and this life is just as important as the next.
Is Today more important than Tomorrow......
Perhaps! :wink2: :HeartThrob:
Cheers. :boyheart:
:handshake:
I'll refrain from getting on my :soap: about :handshake: with this world. :msealed:
OK, sorry, I can't help myself
2John
7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deciever and an anti-christ.
8 Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.
9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, hath both the Father and the Son.
10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.
quote StainedGlass
QuoteI think a seeking mind is good.......keeps one from becoming stagnate in their own beliefs.
The belief in God, the validity in the Word of God, That Jesus was the messiah\Christ??? I prefer to remain
stagnate in these truths. The seeking mind will lead to death, this is not comparable to the Spirit of Truth that leads believers. :mshock:
Lets look at things, not as the world does, but as God does - Christ is the way, the truth and the light - everything contrary to this is rubbish - to entertain worldly ideals is in no way profitable for one who is being led by the Holy Spirit. By this you will distinguish the Spirit of Truth from the spirit of error, he who confesses Jesus as messiah/Christ is of the truth, he who does not is of the spirit of error. For one who has not heard the Gospel, this is different and grace and teaching are in order, this is different than one who knows the Bible as well or better than most here and leads away from God and Christ. Lets wake up here, and see the difference. :dontknow:
Sometimes feelings have to be hurt, and I am sorry of this, there is one who has made themselves an enemy of God in our midst, this will bring knowledge down and continually be a struggle, and a source of false-knowlege, and a seed of error for all who are trying to grow in Christ at this forum and since nobody else will say it, I will.
There are many being led to universalism, looking for awnsers. God forbid they read one of the ungodly posts, posted by an enemy that are here within this forum as their first exposure to universalism and Tentmaker, thinking that these were the writings of christian. (many of these you do not even have to be a member to read)
What would the apostles have said about this, my my, I say this to all of our shame.
For me, being an atheist was just the only logical choice. I had no personal knowledge of God, therefore had no reason to believe. I will admit that some 'Jesus freaks' I knew seemed to have a glow about them, but in the end it took a personal encounter with God Himself to change me, and that's the only real transformation - one that God makes.
Transponder - I can identify with what you said in this thread (haven't read your other posts) because when ya' don't know, it just don't make no sense at all. Personally, I don't mind atheists posting here, no threat at all. Helps me remember where I came from.
- byron
Arcticmonster2003,
I like transponder, I really like his posts and I do not think he is even remotely powerful enough to have "made" himself an enemy of the God... I have had revealed to me. I also like SG...and agree with her quote...the one you quoted from her. My view of what she said is different than yours.
QuoteWhat would the apostles have said about this, my my, I say this to all of our shame.
I'm going to pass on being included...in the shame thing.
Dean
quote Dean
QuoteI like transponder
I don't have a personal dislike for transponder as a person. I like polar bears too, they are cute and cuddly looking but I wouldn't invite one into my house with my family for dinner. :dontknow:
I like transponders personality, he is rational, to the point, mild-mannered enough, but I like God better. Here I am, fearful that I may in the least bit offend a new christians faith, and yet I am numbered among one who has made it his goal, that if there be any who are not sure which way to go, with God, or without, it is his goal to make sure they go without. My goodness. I should also mention, it is not transponders words that bother me so much (but, yes they do bother me too), but rather a spirit which I have felt, I have never in my life felt such an opposition to God as when I feel that spirit. In the spirit lies the power, not the words.
The spirit, for lack of better words "transfers" to those who entertain it.
I am in no way saying that transponder is consciousely trying to "deceive" people in his mind, but make no mistake, the spirit is at war, This is a fact. All that is spirit knows that Jesus is the truth, the way, and the light, - because this is the truth - so let me enlighten(if I may) - when you have a spirit that is opposed to Jesus, they are in darkness and rebellion, hating God. (the spirit world is the "real" world)
You may notice, earlier on this thread, I was nice and loving, then mid-post, I felt that spirit, that hate of God, and it is no trivial matter.
Quote from: arcticmonster2003 on October 20, 2007, 08:08:48 AM
I'll refrain from getting on my :soap: about :handshake: with this world. :msealed:
OK, sorry, I can't help myself
2John
7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deciever and an anti-christ.
8 Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.
9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, hath both the Father and the Son.
10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.
StainedGlass
QuoteI think a seeking mind is good.......keeps one from becoming stagnate in their own beliefs.
QuoteThe belief in God, the validity in the Word of God, That Jesus was the messiah\Christ??? I prefer to remain stagnate in these truths. The seeking mind will lead to death, this is not comparable to the Spirit of Truth that leads believers. :mshock:
Lets look at things, not as the world does, but as God does - Christ is the way, the truth and the light - everything contrary to this is rubbish - to entertain worldly ideals is in no way profitable for one who is being led by the Holy Spirit. By this you will distinguish the Spirit of Truth from the spirit of error, he who confesses Jesus as messiah/Christ is of the truth, he who does not is of the spirit of error. For one who has not heard the Gospel, this is different and grace and teaching are in order, this is different than one who knows the Bible as well or better than most here and leads away from God and Christ. Lets wake up here, and see the difference. :dontknow:
Sometimes feelings have to be hurt, and I am sorry of this, there is one who has made themselves an enemy of God in our midst, this will bring knowledge down and continually be a struggle, and a source of false-knowlege, and a seed of error for all who are trying to grow in Christ at this forum and since nobody else will say it, I will.
There are many being led to universalism, looking for awnsers. God forbid they read one of the ungodly posts, posted by an enemy that are here within this forum as their first exposure to universalism and Tentmaker, thinking that these were the writings of christian. (many of these you do not even have to be a member to read)
What would the apostles have said about this, my my, I say this to all of our shame.
I don't take offence at this. It is pretty much par for the course. Dressed up in high-minded sorrowfulness, it encapsulates very nicely what the problem is with religion. It is fine to be tolerant if no-one has absolute control, but if someone does, then (all for their own good of course) the crackdown comes. Anyone advocating a bit of tolerance is shoved aside by the bigot. It's not just religion; it's everything. Politics, business. Giving the other person a fair shake is regarded as weakness. Sweet reasonableness is regarded as backsliding. Bigotry and polarization is regarded as 'courage of convictions'. It is you, O Arctic one, and your 'us and them' attitude, that is the danger to society, and an obstacle to a fair, just and worthwhile world.
Quote from: arcticmonster2003 on October 20, 2007, 11:04:18 AM
quote Dean
QuoteI like transponder
I don't have a personal dislike for transponder as a person. I like polar bears too, they are cute and cuddly looking but I wouldn't invite one into my house with my family for dinner. :dontknow:
I like transponders personality, he is rational, to the point, mild-mannered enough, but I like God better. Here I am, fearful that I may in the least bit offend a new christians faith, and yet I am numbered among one who has made it his goal, that if there be any who are not sure which way to go, with God, or without, it is his goal to make sure they go without. My goodness. I should also mention, it is not transponders words that bother me so much (but, yes they do bother me too), but rather a spirit which I have felt, I have never in my life felt such an opposition to God as when I feel that spirit. In the spirit lies the power, not the words.
The spirit, for lack of better words "transfers" to those who entertain it.
I am in no way saying that transponder is consciousely trying to "deceive" people in his mind, but make no mistake, the spirit is at war, This is a fact. All that is spirit knows that Jesus is the truth, the way, and the light, - because this is the truth - so let me enlighten(if I may) - when you have a spirit that is opposed to Jesus, they are in darkness and rebellion, hating God. (the spirit world is the "real" world)
You may notice, earlier on this thread, I was nice and loving, then mid-post, I felt that spirit, that hate of God, and it is no trivial matter.
Ah, yes, that 'hate of God'. That rush of blood to the head that cries 'Kill the infidel, burn the heretic, disenfranchise the unfaithful'. Keep talking, Arctic; you are doing more for atheism than everything I have posted up to now.
Let me be more positive. "it is not transponders words that bother me so much (but, yes they do bother me too), but rather a spirit which I have felt, I have never in my life felt such an opposition to God as when I feel that spirit. In the spirit lies the power, not the words." This is far from unusual.
It is the small voice of reason in that 'other' part of your brain. Deconverts have spoken of just such a mental struggle. Deep down inside, the voice of reason was whispering 'You know he makes sense. You know that you are just ignoring what you know is true. You know you are refusing to listen.' And, in the end, they couldn't refuse to listen anymore.
Deconverts have frequently recorded that they were at their most fiercely evangelical when they were deconverting. I wouldn't be surprised if you are contending against real doubts at this moment.
Quote from: firstborn888 on October 20, 2007, 10:15:38 AM
For me, being an atheist was just the only logical choice. I had no personal knowledge of God, therefore had no reason to believe. I will admit that some 'Jesus freaks' I knew seemed to have a glow about them, but in the end it took a personal encounter with God Himself to change me, and that's the only real transformation - one that God makes.
Transponder - I can identify with what you said in this thread (haven't read your other posts) because when ya' don't know, it just don't make no sense at all. Personally, I don't mind atheists posting here, no threat at all. Helps me remember where I came from.
- byron
That personal encounter with god (small letters deliberate) is real enough. Oh yes. I became aware of the 'Mystic experience' quite early on. It can happen in all religions; or none. I later became aware of what I call the 'conversion click-over'. It can happen in any situation when suddenly something happens in the constant debate that is going on in your head and you suddenly 'see everything from the other side' and the trumpets sound and the huge light suddenly goes on and you gasp 'Of course....'.
The Chan Buddhists cultivated this 'enlightenment' click-over through mental disciplines. I try to do it through reason, but that is not what does it. It comes through knocking the brain off balance, suddenly wrenching the mental box so that all those screened - out thoughts can flood in. It can happen in conversion and deconversion.
I have tried to find out which way goes the flow. It looks like deconversion, but I think there are a lot of conversions, too, though I suspect what happens is that those unfamiliar with the arguments convert and the deconverts are those that try to handle the arguments. That's just a personal view, though.
I looked at conversion stories as well as deconversion stories. It was interesting to see how often they were from the more tolerant religions to the more restrictive, shall we say. Perhaps one of the responses to doubt is to find a religion that does not allow doubt.
I mourn for those who are weak in faith who come here. :sigh:
It is enough to affirm for those who already know this:God is God, Jesus Christ is Lord - some know this as fact. I am one of them.
quote transponder
QuoteI wouldn't be surprised if you are contending against real doubts at this moment.
I assure you and everyone else who reads this, that there can be no deconversion for me, I already have the truth. There are no doubts for those for whom God has removed all doubt. I mourn for others who are called who are weak in faith, that read your posts, not that you will defeat them, but that you have made the path harder for them. God will bring a man whom he has called, through the fire even to want death, as many times as it takes, till they look up again.
It is heartening to know that so many people here like the Transponder. Well, he like yu all right back. why woudn't he? We are all humankind together. There are some here with whom I would rather have breakfast than some fellow - posters on the Atheist network.
I know what is meant about the glow of the believer (though I am more familiar with the smug superior smirk) and it must be a real recruiting point to be seen to be so Happy.
It is impressive of course, when the bornagain radiate such joy peace and love - though that can quickly turn to petulance and hostility if the usual stock answers don't work on the questioner.
And that brings me to something that has facinated me. What I call the 'Big open-mouthed smile of deceit'.
I first noticed this when I listened to the commander that bluffed the Argentinians at Goose Green explaining how he had done it.
"I opened my heart to God and said "Do with me as you will" and the answer came to me.' or that was the gist as I remember. And I wondered at the time why God would be telling a Catholic commander how to oust the Catholic Argentinians from protestant - held islands but I recall the wide - eyed brilliant smile.
Some time later I saw a Mel Gibson film with Mel in fine Bible-puncher mode. "I know that God has a plan for me - but I don't know what." said the troubled squaddie. "Let's ask Him, shall we?" says Mel ..and there it was again, that big wide-eyed smile. Maybe it is a Catholic thing?
Perhaps, as following the Tsunami there were some accusations that Catholic authorities were using aid selectively to drum up business for the Vatican. A Sinhalese priest was filmed grumbling over the newpapers.
"These reports are not true...all lies..." He turned to the camera "The Devil is the Father of Lies". And there it was again, that big eager smile with the wide-open eyes.
And then I recalled where I knew it from. The kids are acting up and mommy is trying to get them back on line. " Listen everyone' she suggests with just that smile "Why don't we all.."
or "Now wouldn't you like to...." It is persuasion. Getting control of a situation. It is not actually being straight, it involves some distraction or misdirection. It is, essentially, attempting to bamboozle the other into doing what the smiler wants.
I don't know whether we have any body-language experts on the forum, but I should love some input on this.
Quote from: arcticmonster2003 on October 20, 2007, 01:40:42 PM
I mourn for those who are weak in faith who come here. :sigh:
It is enough to affirm for those who already know this:God is God, Jesus Christ is Lord - some know this as fact. I am one of them.
quote transponder
QuoteI wouldn't be surprised if you are contending against real doubts at this moment.
I assure you and everyone else who reads this, that there can be no deconversion for me, I already have the truth. There are no doubts for those for whom God has removed all doubt. I mourn for others who are called who are weak in faith, that read your posts, not that you will defeat them, but that you have made the path harder for them. God will bring a man whom he has called, through the fire even to want death, as many times as it takes, till they look up again.
Well, look on the positive side. God has placed many tests on the path of the unbeliever. Religious leaders with feet of clay, a religious book that needs heaps of illogic in order to be beleved, a nicely - wrought Christian empire suddenly cut down to half by the arabs. An inexplicable Tsunami, a god-inspired enterprise in the middle east that looks (if we didn't know any better) to be no better directed than by fallible man without any God-input at all. All these things are there to try the faith of the faithful by God not only decining to make it clear that He exists but positively doing all he can to show that he doesn't.
All this is to be sure that the faithful saved have shown themselves to be god's elect; those that refuse to doubt despite all the evidence up to and including proof positive that the ain't no God.
So think of me as part of that plan. Don't slag off God's work. He will be miffed with you.
Hey Trans
IPOG looks like AN Mk2
Plenty of your buddies there and they were invited.
Ol' Jeff had himself deleted completely, Roman is gone, even Trinity is banned. Ol' Jeff had a right royal time.
Seems Jon is allowing all to express their views there now except maybe RC's.
Must have his hands full just to unban dad's work :pointlaugh:
Even Jon has challenged the Christians about their holy huddledness.
May get interesting there soon.
Blessings
and btw, till you break the rules, UR welcome here.
Quote from: Transponder on October 19, 2007, 10:04:09 PM
Sultanas, so I gather. We get a handful of sultanas. 'Virgins' is apparently a mistranslation. No, the reward of living a life of forswearing alcohol is to sprawl on a couch sinking shiraz by the bucket...
Grapes :mshock: Yeesh, will those guys be dissappointed, and only 70 to boot. :laugh: :omg:
:beerburp:
quote transponder
QuoteAll this is to be sure that the faithful saved have shown themselves to be god's elect; those that refuse to doubt despite all the evidence up to and including proof positive that the ain't no God.
So think of me as part of that plan. Don't slag off God's work. He will be miffed with you.
Well, the best part of this (and stumbling blocks are rarely this easy to remove) is that with a few clicks of a mouse, I can find a forum that doesn't allow blaspheming God. So, if you were part of this plan for me, you aren't anymore, I must have been the weakest brother in Christ here.
Quote from: firstborn888 on October 20, 2007, 10:15:38 AM
For me, being an atheist was just the only logical choice. I had no personal knowledge of God, therefore had no reason to believe. I will admit that some 'Jesus freaks' I knew seemed to have a glow about them, but in the end it took a personal encounter with God Himself to change me, and that's the only real transformation - one that God makes.
Transponder - I can identify with what you said in this thread (haven't read your other posts) because when ya' don't know, it just don't make no sense at all. Personally, I don't mind atheists posting here, no threat at all. Helps me remember where I came from.
- byron
Thanks for that post byron..... :girlheart:
Quote from: SeekerSA on October 20, 2007, 05:53:55 PM
Quote from: Transponder on October 19, 2007, 10:04:09 PM
Sultanas, so I gather. We get a handful of sultanas. 'Virgins' is apparently a mistranslation. No, the reward of living a life of forswearing alcohol is to sprawl on a couch sinking shiraz by the bucket...
Grapes :mshock: Yeesh, will those guys be dissappointed, and only 70 to boot. :laugh: :omg:
:beerburp:
Heee. As I once posted on the AN "Raisins??? I blew my everlovin' A.. off for RAISINS???"
Thanks for the info. on POG. Maybe I'll look in there again. My e-pal Cosmic Chris tells me he feels the wingbeat of the banbird there but perhaps things have changed. Apparently Jeff banned everyone including himself.
Quote from: arcticmonster2003 on October 20, 2007, 07:09:43 PM
quote transponder
QuoteAll this is to be sure that the faithful saved have shown themselves to be god's elect; those that refuse to doubt despite all the evidence up to and including proof positive that the ain't no God.
So think of me as part of that plan. Don't slag off God's work. He will be miffed with you.
Well, the best part of this (and stumbling blocks are rarely this easy to remove) is that with a few clicks of a mouse, I can find a forum that doesn't allow blaspheming God. So, if you were part of this plan for me, you aren't anymore, I must have been the weakest brother in Christ here.
Don't tell me you're leaving? Blaspheming God? Now, who is doing that? Are we seeing what would happen if the blasphemy laws were made as strong as the truly faithful would want - any disagreement with the Holy Writ made a capital offence? Stop and ask yourself whether you are acting like a reasonable human bean or like some frowny-faced muslim fanatic.
Hey again Transponder......just want to say that I'm glad you are here, but still curious as to why you post on this forum. Your explainations don't add up IMO. Don't get me wrong.....I'm glad you're here, but I just can't see a true "atheist" spending time on a Christian Universalist forum. What is the pay off for you? I myself come here because I enjoy sharing and listening to others that share the same hope that I do.
Trandponder...is there some where deep down inside that you hope there is a happy ending to it all......or are you out to prove or teach us something that you think we're not seeing right now that is going to profoundly change our lives for the better?
I'm serious with my questions here because it's all quite a puzzle.....I know a couple other athiests pretty well including my husband, and all of them stay away from spiritual matters. In fact my husband thinks that forums and fellowships like this are a waste of time in general. :sigh:
To be honest, I'm not sure what I'm doing here or what I'm expecting to achieve. I just have an idea that telling people what they want to hear is well enough but you only make progress by telling people what maybe they don't want to hear.
transponder said: From what I have seen of gods, I would prefer NOT to have them about, thanks very much. An afterlife might be nice, but, if we have one, then it is as natural as birth and death and we would all get it, not just those that worship the right deity.
Couldn't agree more!! Nice posts!
Peace.
Giz
Quote from: Transponder on October 21, 2007, 09:00:51 PM
To be honest, I'm not sure what I'm doing here or what I'm expecting to achieve. I just have an idea that telling people what they want to hear is well enough but you only make progress by telling people what maybe they don't want to hear.
........progress towards what Transponder?
Transponder.......I too agree with that quote of yours that Giz just pointed out. Sounds to me like you would like to believe that all are saved in the end.......but you're just afraid you might get your hopes up.
QuoteAn afterlife might be nice, but, if we have one, then it is as natural as birth and death and we would all get it
do tell...I agree with an atheist. The apostle Paul said it somewhat like like this, Transponder.( I'm on a hotel puter and don't have crosswalk.com at the click of my mouse right now)
As in Adam all die, so also in Christ will all be made alive And, God has shut up all in unbelief that He may have mercy on all.
blessings :grin:
Quote from: StainedGlass on October 21, 2007, 09:21:49 PM
Quote from: Transponder on October 21, 2007, 09:00:51 PM
To be honest, I'm not sure what I'm doing here or what I'm expecting to achieve. I just have an idea that telling people what they want to hear is well enough but you only make progress by telling people what maybe they don't want to hear.
........progress towards what Transponder?
Progress towards, in the end, a world without superstitions and quarrels over those superstitions.
I know...How am I moving towards that with bothering you folks here. Why am I not campaigning, pamphleteering, starting up an atheist website or magazine? I am a very small person with very limited abilities and I would not know how to do all those things. I might, however, encourage some of those that could.
One plan I have is to try to publish, one day, my collected posts, tidied up and made to look like a coherent argument. You bods are producing from me some of my best. Atheist books are now more saleable than ever before (1).
I already have my Jesus theory (in the form of a novel) and I might use an extract in the 'resurrection' thread, ...yada, yada...
(1) not that I want to get rich from my deeply - held principles - he lied.
Quote from: StainedGlass on October 21, 2007, 09:24:20 PM
Transponder.......I too agree with that quote of yours that Giz just pointed out. Sounds to me like you would like to believe that all are saved in the end.......but you're just afraid you might get your hopes up.
The point is, if there is a (natural) afterlife for us all then there is no point in worrying about it. It reverses Pascal's wager - it is a better bet to live this life as though there was no life after death.
If there is no afterlife (natural - for us all) at least we have lived our own life rather than one wasted on myth.
If there is an afterlife (natural - for us all) then wasting time on myth is pointless.
Quote from: dboutwell on October 22, 2007, 04:29:54 AM
QuoteAn afterlife might be nice, but, if we have one, then it is as natural as birth and death and we would all get it
do tell...I agree with an atheist. The apostle Paul said it somewhat like like this, Transponder.( I'm on a hotel puter and don't have crosswalk.com at the click of my mouse right now)
As in Adam all die, so also in Christ will all be made alive And, God has shut up all in unbelief that He may have mercy on all.
blessings :grin:
Corinthians - 1Cr 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
However.
1Cr 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
1Cr 15:24 Then [cometh] the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
By 'all' Paul seems to mean (in the context of all his writings) those that have Faith in Jesus. Not just everyone.
Perhaps he thought - as is the thought on this forum - that God's plan is that everyone should believe and would therefore be saved. Paul must have doubted that would really be the case.
It certainly appears to mean that 'Then [cometh] the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God' is indefinitely deferred, unless there is some post - 'end' mechanism for recycling the unbeliever. If there is..why worry? Whether the afterlife is natural (for everyone) or US (for everyone - eventually) or there is none at all, best to just make the most of your life and don't worry about trying to believe the unbelievable.
P.s just noticed how you added on something from Romans.
Rom 11:31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
Rom 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
I'm not sure that they should be read together out of context.
Quote from: Transponder on October 22, 2007, 01:30:08 PM
Quote from: StainedGlass on October 21, 2007, 09:21:49 PM
Quote from: Transponder on October 21, 2007, 09:00:51 PM
To be honest, I'm not sure what I'm doing here or what I'm expecting to achieve. I just have an idea that telling people what they want to hear is well enough but you only make progress by telling people what maybe they don't want to hear.
........progress towards what Transponder?
Progress towards, in the end, a world without superstitions and quarrels over those superstitions.
I know...How am I moving towards that with bothering you folks here. Why am I not campaigning, pamphleteering, starting up an atheist website or magazine? I am a very small person with very limited abilities and I would not know how to do all those things. I might, however, encourage some of those that could.
One plan I have is to try to publish, one day, my collected posts, tidied up and made to look like a coherent argument. You bods are producing from me some of my best. Atheist books are now more saleable than ever before (1).
I already have my Jesus theory (in the form of a novel) and I might use an extract in the 'resurrection' thread, ...yada, yada...
(1) not that I want to get rich from my deeply - held principles - he lied.
Superstition is merely emotion driven thinking........IMO we all do that at some time or another.......
For some reason we all seem to be emotion driven individuals. Wonder why that is?? :HeartThrob:
Quote from: Transponder on October 22, 2007, 01:40:22 PM
Quote from: StainedGlass on October 21, 2007, 09:24:20 PM
Transponder.......I too agree with that quote of yours that Giz just pointed out. Sounds to me like you would like to believe that all are saved in the end.......but you're just afraid you might get your hopes up.
The point is, if there is a (natural) afterlife for us all then there is no point in worrying about it. It reverses Pascal's wager - it is a better bet to live this life as though there was no life after death.
If there is no afterlife (natural - for us all) at least we have lived our own life rather than one wasted on myth.
If there is an afterlife (natural - for us all) then wasting time on myth is pointless.
For me iTransponder......it's quite different.....I don't WORRY about the afterlife. I know.......it's more than taken care of. Helps me get on with my life now and know that the story ends good.
It helps me to see that tomorrow is bright instead of bleek. I'd rather live and die in hope......instead of no hope.........this keeps me going.
Perhaps the afterlife is as natural as tomorrow is.......night is symbolic of death, and tomorrow is symbolic of a new day. There surely is a cycle of seasons and death and rebirth left for us to see as a symbol of something that in my opinion is greater.
Transponder,
QuoteP.s just noticed how you added on something from Romans.
Rom 11:31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
Rom 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
I'm not sure that they should be read together out of context.
I stuck them together because i was in a hurry to get off the hotel's computer..someone was waitng for it. Although, to read each of them in their context, I believe, brings that same conclusion. I believe God is the creator and He made a way for all of His creation to be with Him through Christ. Some are chose to do certain things in his kingdom and just because others are not doesn't mean they cease to exist. or, heaven forbid, burn for eternity in Hell. Sheese, I'm glad God is smarter that we are.
Anyway, my thoughts.... :grin:
Transponder,
My daughter told me this weekend that a friend recently said to her that, "she is a beautiful and worthy spiritual being...experiencing being human".
Before I became a believer..my recolection is that I had thoughts of being more than human.
In your 'being human' do you ever experience consciousness of being ...more than human?
Dean
Hey Dean......your daughter sounds like she has some nice friends. :HeartThrob:
Reminds me of the question - Are we humans having a spiritual experience, or are we spirit having a human experience??
Quote from: Dean on October 22, 2007, 07:47:40 PM
Transponder,
My daughter told me this weekend that a friend recently said to her that, "she is a beautiful and worthy spiritual being...experiencing being human".
Before I became a believer..my recolection is that I had thoughts of being more than human.
In your 'being human' do you ever experience consciousness of being ...more than human?
Dean
It strikes me as being a bit of a subjective thought. There are things about me and the way my head works that I don't understand. I don't see them as more than that though. I have experienced
deja vu and my name being called by someone in my head. However, I didn't jump to any conclusions about what caused that. Recently I read some interesting work on 'voices' that proposed an interesting suggestion on where these voices come from and how they sometimes seem to know what we (consciously) don't. It rather sidelined to 'angels' explanation.
(edit. It rather sidelined to 'angels' explanation. should read 'It rather sidelined the 'angels' explanation.' in the sense that it suggested a purely brain - based phenomenon)