I don't buy the whole thing, and the Waking Times is a tad too New-Age for me, but I think this is worth reading and thinking about.
http://www.wakingtimes.com/2014/05/16/scientists-claim-quantum-theory-proves-consciousness-moves-another-universe-death/
Looks good.
Fritjof Capra is one of my favorites in this field. The book Biocentrism looks to be along the same line of thinking.
.
re; consciousness can exist whether in the human body or out. brings to mind Paul's stATEMENT
.........I once knew a man that was caught up to the 3rd heaven...'WHETHER IN THE BODY OR OUT
I DO NOT KNOW"
thanks Laz..I find these things very interesting. Hope your'e feeling better. :friendstu:
"consciousness" stops...period... when a soul dies. It waits. Man just cannot give up thinking about what happens when death arrives, man keeps considering, still death is a seal sealed....done... DEAD.
Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not anything, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Ecc 3:22 Wherefore I saw that there is nothing better, than that a man should rejoice in his works; for that is his portion: for who shall bring him back to see what shall be after him?
Just some thoughts :dsunny:
Very intriguing topic.
Is a living human made up of two components - spirit and body?
Yes that was so in the creation of the first man, Adam.
(KJV) Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
But after that person called Adam came into existence. He was body, soul and spirit. After that all who were born, were born with body, soul, and spirit. We, at conception had with body soul and spirit and were born with those three attributes.
Or is a living being made up of three components body soul and spirit?
Scripture says THREE components:
(KJV) 1Th_5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Three are mentioned not two. Nothing to do with the trinity since that is an entirely different subject. Three does not automatically imply trinity.
So what happens at death. Body returns to dust. Spirit returns to God. What happens to the soul? Does it dissapear or is it still in existence? I plan to do a new post exploring this further.
isn't the soul, the merging of the spirit and body? almost a hybrid idea?
Quote from: micah7:9 on May 23, 2014, 05:31:34 AM
"consciousness" stops...period... when a soul dies. It waits. Man just cannot give up thinking about what happens when death arrives, man keeps considering, still death is a seal sealed....done... DEAD.
Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not anything, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Ecc 3:22 Wherefore I saw that there is nothing better, than that a man should rejoice in his works; for that is his portion: for who shall bring him back to see what shall be after him?
Just some thoughts :dsunny:
Micah, you are entirely correct. My interest lies mostly in the idea that consciousness is not produced by chemical or electrical processes in the body or brain. The following is my own view of body, spirit, soul, life, and death:
BODY, SPIRIT, SOUL...and HELL
What are we, anyway? What happens to us when we die? Every church/denomination has a bit (sometimes, a wee bit) of the Truth on such questions. For instance, while never a member, I learned from the Jehovah's Witnesses that the afterlife is not a harp-on-a-cloud existence, but for the most part, to live in the New Earth. Little else seemed correct, but I did pick that up. I was a "card-carrying" member of the Seventh-Day Adventist church for a few years, and I did get this embedded: the proper understanding of body, soul, and spirit.
It's easy to miss what's going on in Genesis when God made Adam, so let's look at those few, meaningful words: "And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life. And man became a living soul."
Genesis 2:7 KJV II
Ahead of anything else, we need to understand some of the terms. When we see "LORD" in caps or small caps, it stands for the proper name "YHVH" (Yod/He/Vav/He), which is often transliterated as "Yaweh" or referred to as the "Tetragrammaton." This name is usually connected to Moses' meeting with God at the burning bush, where God gave the name of "I AM THAT I AM." There is a deeper meaning, however. You need to be aware that each Hebrew letter had three (at least) levels of meaning – the phonetic meaning, the numerical meaning (as Hebrew, like many ancient scripts, lacked separate symbols for numbers), and a very ancient pictortial meaning. I have yet to successfully download a usable Hebrew font, so I can't display the pictorial letters, just the descriptors. Interestingly, most translators do not render the proper name of God as they should, but go ahead and transliterate the names of every pagan deity around, which the same God said not to do - but that's a rant for another day. Hebrew is read from right to left, so if we plug in the pictographic meanings of the letters, it would read something like this:
He - lo, see, behold
Vav - a peg, nail, or hook
He - lo, see, behold
Yod - the hand
So, let's put it all together: God's proper name means (pictorially) "Behold the Nail, Behold the Hand." Reading from left to right, we get "Behold the Hand, Behold the Nail." Folks, this could be none other than Jesus!! Jesus is the God of the Old Testament, Who created the universe, the Earth, plants, animals, Adam, Eve, everything.
First, God took some dirt (in fact, the Miao people refer to Adam as the "Patriarch Dirt"):
dirt --> [God transforms it into] --> a lifeless body.
OK, we've got a body, and we can't even call it dead, as it has not yet lived, but:
lifeless body --> [God breathes into it the Breath of Life, aka Spirtit] --> Adam, a living soul, a living person with breath.
Simplified, we have:
body + breath/spirit = soul
Now we've got a soul, which by the implied
Biblical definition, is the living, breathing person, not some ineffable, ethereal, spiritual thing. Also implied, is that you do not HAVE a soul, but you ARE a soul.
Still with me? I tell you, it's as hard to make people understand this! It's a mindset, a stronghold, but we need to understand it in the way God sets it out, not the way the world does. I believe the rest of the Bible uses this understanding of "soul" consistently, and this understanding makes some passages of the Bible plain, which otherwise are confusing.
To deepen your understanding, let's reverse the process. When you die, you stop breathing. Now, a lot of things happen at and after death, but the Biblical view equates life with having breath, so I'm going to stick with that. We have lots of indicators of death these days, such as the heart stopping, lack of pulse, lack of brain activity, but ultimately decomposition, the returning to dust, is the final marker. Lack of breathing meets Boblical criteria, and points to death.
Made simple: soul - breath = body.
Expanded a bit, we get:
living person (soul) - life (breath) = dead/lifeless body.
It's just the making of Adam in reverse, and what do we end up with? One thing implied by the proper Biblical understanding of body, spirit, and soul may surprise you.
The breath/Spirit returns to God, who gave it. It belongs to Him, and since it is most certainly one of the seven Spirits of God, it is part of Him. That being so, it doesn't go to "Hell" if it's part of God, does it? Stay with me, please.
The body begins to decay, and one way or the other, returns to the ground, which gave it. That being so, it doesn't go to "Hell," except in the sense of being in the grave - there's no point in sending lifeless bodies to an eternity in Hell, is there? The idea seems absurd to me.
Oops! What happened to the soul? Gone, gone! It no longer exists, just as the living person no longer exists. It doesn't return to anything - it's just like a chemical molecule when it is broken up into it's component atoms. Poof! Consider a water molecule undergoing electrolysis - the hydrogen bubbles off the cathode, and oxygen bubbles off the anode. Asking where the soul went is as pointless as asking where the water went.
So there you are, neither Spirit, Body, or Soul can be sent to Hell. For those who insist that God can resurrect people and send them to Hell, I can only reply on two levels. First, proponets of Eternal Torment have misunderstood the character of a loving God. The God of the Bible is a God of the living, not the dead. At some point, as written in the Revelation, both Death and Hell are cast into the Lake of Fire, and I ask you, how can anyone be dead and in Hell after that? It would be absurd, and further, if anyone is still dead and in Hell, God cannot become All in all. It's really that simple. Note that I am not saying people will escape responsibility for their evil works, or be punished for them, I am saying that a loving God punishes for a purpose, and for a time, not for torment's sake and not for eternity. Keep in mind the principle of the Law of the Jubilee, which states that at a set time, all debts are cancelled, and everyone in bondage goes home free to their lands and homes. God instituted the Jubilee for an ancient society, but it points to a future where everyone will have their sins forgiven, and they will go free bondage and the debt of sin to enjoy their inheritance, as co-heirs with Jesus the Christ. This will certainly involve the New Earth, and possibly the New Heavens as well.
Secondly, Hell, as most people think of it, is a concept but not a reality. Let me explain. For the first few centuries AD, the doctrine of universal salvation was orthodox, especially in the eastern churches. However, with many pagans coming into the body of believers, pagan mindsets and ideas came in as baggage with them. Former ideas and concepts were hard to get rid of, and began to color Christian theology and Biblical understanding. Little by little, Sheol became thought of more and more as being like Hel, Hades or Inferno. The Greek concept of the Immortality of the Soul, began to replace the Biblical concept of death and ressurection. Immortality of the soul also made eternal life in a place of fire possible in the minds of men. Oddly, lots of Christians today subscribe to both the idea of the Immortal Soul, and death and resurrection at the same time. Most never see the contradiction. In time, these concepts also affected Bible translations, so that we see words translated as "Hell" which mean no such thing. There are good translations which do not contain the word at all. I have found that, in the centuries since the concept of Hell entered Christianity, that all the literature on the subject has been theological (I prefer "theo-illogical") speculation or fiction. Yes, fiction, from the epic poetry of Dante and Milton, to the prose of Mary K. Baxter and many, many movies and "Ewetoob" videos.
Here's how reconciliation goes:
dirt --> [God makes it into] --> a body
body --> [God gives it a bit of His Spirit/Breath] --> a soul
soul --> [God gives it more Spirit (the Earnest)] --> a justified soul
justified soul --> [God gives it the full Spirit after death & resurrection] --> a Glorified Soul
Job done, rest and eternity ensues.
:dsunny: :HeartThrob: :dsunny: Cant say more!
:cloud9: My :2c:......Not trying to offend anyone, but the words for soul and spirit are not the same, either in the Hebrew or the Greek.
Not accusing anyone here, but the New Agers believe the soul is the same as the spirit, too. Generally speaking, if they believe it, we can pretty much count on it being a lie, considering they get their information from various practices the Word plainly condemns.
But male and female, made He THEM, ie. both male (spirit plants the seed) and female (soul is a womb reproducing whatever nature is planted in it). The soul is the lesser glory, and a witness to the things done in the body.
Doing away with "her" is man's attempt to cleanse by a doctrine of removal, what only Christ can cleanse, and what He died for, ie. the garment spotted by sins. The soul is the garment of the spirit. Though your sins be as scarlet I will make them white as snow.
By the same principle, Christ was the garment of the Father, and so He could say when you've seen Me, you've seen the Father. God the Father was IN CHRIST, reconciling all men unto Himself. So too, are we called to a ministry of reconciliation, but it will never happen (in fullness) until we go thru a change of garments.
The body is dust, and as such not held accountable, although we do reap in our bodies the harvest of our sins while still in the body. The renewed spirit is not held accountable, it returns to the One who sent it. The only part of man that is held accountable is his soul. This is a "divorce", that IS death.
And so Jesus told them that because of the hardness of your hearts, Moses (the letter) allowed you a bill of divorcement. Hardness of hearts there when you run through the original Hebrew, means "dull of hearing".
So what He was telling them was, if you persist in clinging to the dead letter instead of hearing the Spirit OF the letter, the letter (Moses/ministry of condemnation to the flesh) is set up to allow you to "divorce" your "wife"/soul = die. The wife/soul is to listen to her husband/Spirit, submitting to him in love.
The soul is the "us" part of the equation, our mind, will, emotions, and desires, represented by the 4 horns on the altar that we are to willingly tie ourselves down to and on and become a LIVING sacrifice. If you're ALREADY dead before you present your "offering", THERE IS NO BLOOD, NO LIVING SACRIFICE to offer. This is the same thing as Cain's offering, a BLOODLESS offering.
And so, it says work while it is still day (still have a SUN/spirit in your soul), for the night comes (moon only/soul only) when no man can work, and work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
Those that refuse to allow Him to cleanse them, are the ones who appear without a wedding garment. Christ does not join Himself to a harlot (adulterous soul, not in union with His Spirit). Again, my :2c: Blessings....
Christ was the garment of the Father. Awesome.
That post was very enlightening for me. :thumbsup:
:sigh:
Quote from: Lazarus Short on May 22, 2014, 06:29:03 PM
I don't buy the whole thing, and the Waking Times is a tad too New-Age for me, but I think this is worth reading and thinking about.
http://www.wakingtimes.com/2014/05/16/scientists-claim-quantum-theory-proves-consciousness-moves-another-universe-death/
:cloud9: Finally had a chance to read this. I think it's amazing how God is bringing together all things into Him. A few decades ago, a lot of the scientists denied there was a God, now they are delving into the very principles He used to create, forcing them to prove He exists. How cool is that, lol? :laughing7: Blessings....
Interesting article. Amazing as men follow the trail closer and closer to the wisdom of God but continually fail to give Him glory- but also, in a way, understandable, considering what "churchianity" has shown the world of the wisdom of God- not much.
Secret things are glorious and keys to even more secret things- "Deep calls unto deep at the sound of your waterfalls of Lord."
My theory about the soul and time and death, is this(at present).
Jesus is the Lamb, slain from the foundation of the world. In other words. The creation, in eternity, begins at the cross of Christ.
In time, Christ was crucified at "the apex /consummation of the ages"(Hebrews 9:26).
Hebrews 9:26
Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.
The center of everything, in time, is Christ crucified. manifest at the "consummation" to, once for all, offer sacrifice for the sins of all and present the "image of the Father" to the whole creation throughout all times and ages.
The manifestation of everything in eternity, is Christ raised from the dead and ascended to the right hand of God.
From that lofty position, Jesus is from the beginning to the end, Alpha/Omega, transcending time and death and the grave so.....
All the "tetragramatons", i.e. OT manifestations of Christ, are entrances of JC into time from His lofty position above time at the right hand of the Invisible Almighty God who alone dwells in unapproachable light.
Where do we fit in?
When a soul dies, in time, it ceases to exist, or awaits the resurrection in Sheol- whatever one believes it doesnt matter really......
But in eternity, the soul, in the resurrection (to whichever one it has been accorded) awakens instantly(no consciousness of the passing of time) in the presence of the Lord(to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord) at the Great White Throne where the eyes of the Lord will discern the hearts by the two edged sword that proceeds from His mouth- and every knee will bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord once those fiery eyes and that quickened sword of the Spirit will have finished their work.
IMO the soul, the spirit and the body are all joined at the heart. The heart is the gateway, the throne, the seat of consciousness in man. The center/hub of the wheel. If the heart is yielded to Christ then the kingdom of God will come and the divine nature manifest in the spirit, soul and body.
If the heart is not yielded, then their is "unstableness in all our ways" and the image of Christ is obscured and distorted(confusion/babylon).
In the same way the death burial and resurrection of Christ is at the heart of all the ages, space, time and cosmos......the apex/consummation.... the INTERSECTION of time and eternity, the heart of everything that exists, in heaven and on earth and under the earth. It is the point at which the matrix of life, the Logos, rushes throughout the kosmos forwards and backwards in time, "Behold I make all things new".
If you are viewing from the radius of time, when you die, you cease to exist or sleep. If you are viewing from the apex of eternity, to be absent from the body is to awaken before the crucified one.
It is like the big bang theory to me.
In the beginning an explosion ALPHA.....CHAOS./DARKNESS....expansion without form and void.....law, establishing the separation, then, at the consummation of the ages, at the cross.....contraction/transformation into the image of Christ, grace swallowing up separation into union, Let there be light, the light shines in the darkness and the darkness cannot overcome it.......The reconciliation of all things to the Father by the blood of Christ's cross......the gathering together of all things into one in Christ.....the restoration of all things spoken of by all the prophets from the foundation of the world OMEGA.
The Logos of God, conceived in the heart of God far beyond and above all consideration of time(Father, restore unto me the glory I had with you before the world was). The Logos of God through whom "everything that has come into being came into being". The Logos who was planted in the womb of Mary as a seed and was spoken into earth so that earth might be gathered into heaven. The Logos who sits at the right hand of God as time puts down all His adversaries until death(cessation of time consciousness) harvests every soul ever created for the ALL IN ALL.
This is just the bare bones of a theory, still in meditation/formulation, but I think it has some merit :o).
:cloud9: I've shared this before, but since you basically "translated" what happened to me, I'm going to share it again. I had a vision, overcome by glory, in the presence of 4 others (also overcome). I saw like an explosion from the cross, with all the scenes from the OT to my left expanding outward, and all the scenes from the NT to my right expanding outward, simultaneously. It is nearly impossible to describe, and totally impossible to experience, apart from the Spirit of God doing it. It was like downloading something into a computer. You just described it perfectly. Blessings....
What a beautiful and awesome vision.
It is written "Surely goodness and mercy will follow me all the days of my life(redeemed past), and I will dwell in the house of the Lord forever(redeemed future). Both extend from the cross, an explosion of love and light that washes and gathers all things into the all in all. :cloud9:
:cloud9: Beautiful.... :thumbsup: :dsunny:
I feel like I could burst LOL
:cloud9: Me too....isn't He amazing??? That happened to me feast of Tabernacles, 1993 at midnight. He spoke, "The priesthood is changing", then whoosh, I saw the cross explode. I never totally understood what I was seeing until you wrote that. :girlheart: :banana:
Behold I am making all things new :o)
A priesthood of newness?
"For God was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself, not counting their trespasses against us, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation"
In all wisdom and insight He ]made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth.
I see it so clearly in these verses. Mind-blowing and spirit illuminating, just incredible really :o)
The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. 19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.
I mean, its just so unfathomable yet the Spirit leads us into all truth. The glory of it makes me soar like a bird.
:cloud9: Wow.....reading those scripts you just posted here just made them all come alive relative to how and what I saw. Wow.....He "downloaded" the intent of the Spirit in all the scenes, instantaneously and in split seconds each, but only let the "me" part of the equation consciously remember only one scene. It was the 3 Hebrew children in the fiery furnace. Uh, given my life since then, I'm pretty sure it was meant to be prophetic.... :LH:
Also here....
In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe. 3 The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.
As I see it, His Lordship at the right hand of God transcends time entirely and swallows it up, an administration suitable to the fulness of times, the summing up of all things....
As He is the radiance of the Father's glory and the exact representation of His nature, it is so clear that the light of God, "The light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ" came bursting from the cross", "Forgive them Father...."
It brings so much power to the words from 2 Cor 5, "And God who said let light shine out of darkness is the one who has shone in our hearts......" :o)
Yea, sometimes it seems we only really get to know the fire by standing in it for awhile :LH:
Mmmm sometimes when you see that light at the end of the tunnel you should turn back and run the other way, hey Card? :laughing7:
Not really tho... there is life and purity on the other side, thank God.
Quote from: eaglesway on May 25, 2014, 06:25:43 AM
Also here....
In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe. 3 The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.
As I see it, His Lordship at the right hand of God transcends time entirely and swallows it up, an administration suitable to the fulness of times, the summing up of all things....
As He is the radiance of the Father's glory and the exact representation of His nature, it is so clear that the light of God, "The light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ" came bursting from the cross", "Forgive them Father...."
It brings so much power to the words from 2 Cor 5, "And God who said let light shine out of darkness is the one who has shone in our hearts......" :o)
:cloud9: Yes! He spoke to me years ago, "Time is the measurement of death."
I asked Him what He meant and He showed me the trees as seasons change, going from "life/spirit" to "death/winter", and said, "Something has to die to create time," (because there is no time in His Spirit because there is no death in His Spirit. Christ, slain from the foundation, created time.
And so, what you said about His RIGHT HAND of Spirit, also rings true. Blessings....
Quote from: lomarah on May 25, 2014, 06:34:42 AM
Mmmm sometimes when you see that light at the end of the tunnel you should turn back and run the other way, hey Card? :laughing7:
:cloud9: Yes, it seems in my case the light is usually a fast locomotive..... :doh:
Quote from: eaglesway on May 25, 2014, 06:27:45 AM
Yea, sometimes it seems we only really get to know the fire by standing in it for awhile :LH:
:cloud9: How true. At this point, I'm fairly certain my garment got singed a bit.... :flamebreath:
I was thinking more like an even bigger fire than the one at the beginning of the tunnel... I've never heard of a purifying locomotive but I'm sure it could knock a bit of sense into us at least. :laughing7:
I always loved that vision He gave you about the cross "exploding", I think about it often. It also reminds me of Dora Van Assen's vision of the fulness of the ages. Exciting stuff.
Quote from: Cardinal on May 25, 2014, 06:40:45 AM
Quote from: eaglesway on May 25, 2014, 06:27:45 AM
Yea, sometimes it seems we only really get to know the fire by standing in it for awhile :LH:
:cloud9: How true. At this point, I'm fairly certain my garment got singed a bit.... :flamebreath:
Don't worry, those were your old filthy garments, He made the new ones fire proof.
So, if something has to die for time to exist, then in the Garden, before sin and the Adamic curse, existence was timeless?
I think, given this discussion, that I may have to abandon my theory about consciousness being in another unknown place, and the brain being just a transducer. It dawns on me that when Spirit is breathed/infused into body/flesh, Soul (aka, consciousness) results.
Romans 8:1-21 1)Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has you free from the law of sin and death.......................I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. For the creation waits in eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed. [/b]20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God.
If I didnt have this assurance, I would surely despair of life. Kept Job going, Like Timex I guess(takes a licking, keeps on ticking). We are still finding out what time it is arent we :o)
Good question Laz. I would not propose a doctrine on it myself ;o)
Quote from: Lazarus Short on May 25, 2014, 06:50:41 AM
So, if something has to die for time to exist, then in the Garden, before sin and the Adamic curse, existence was timeless?
:cloud9: My :2c: from the bits and pieces I've gathered over the years, He poured Himself into His creation; that was a "lowering", a "death" of sorts, mirrored by matter being slowed down energy in the natural.
The reason we can't see Him unless it's permitted, is because He ascended back into that state of being, where He can take any form (think of the gardener or the stranger on the road to Emmaus). He was ascending and descending all throughout time (Christophanies like the Rock, or the tree of life in the garden).
He wants our soul (a WOMAN delivered of SEVEN/fullness of darkness/devils saw Him first after He arose) to see Him in each other FIRST (the gardener or the stranger on the road to Emmaus), and then we can see God AND live (unto Him, as did the disciples when HE CAME THROUGH THEIR WALLS AND ATE THEIR FISH). When He comes, will He find faith on the/your "earth"? My :2c: Blessings.....