What To Avoid in the Afterlife

[jabcat]

I'm trying to put some thoughts down that might seem muddled, hopefully you'll get what I'm after and not think I'm preaching some sort of damnation and fear.  I think there's a legitimate question in here if you can ferret it out.

ET believes (in large part) salvation is from eternal torment in hell.   ED believes to a large extent salvation is from eternal death/totally ceasing to exist;  only the saved/righteous are raised to eternal life.  UR believes various things;

1)  instant salvation in next life for some as they quickly recognize the Savior, corrective punishment for varying lengths of duration for others.  1a)  some believe this is guilt and remorse of the mind, a sort of spiritual torment, while 1b)  others believe it's a literal burning hell that one "escapes" from when their heart is truly changed, they've repented, and Jesus is accepted/recognized as Savior

2) instant salvation in next life for all, "simply" when the fleshly body is cast off and become completely a spiritual being - judgments/loss, etc. are ONLY (or even primarily) in this life

3) all have already received salvation, whether Islamic, Jew, atheist;  everything's already done (and even there's now no such thing as sin) it's just a matter of dying and waking up in the heaven

I tend to fall in category 1, and specifically 1a.  I'd say that Gary and TM ministries also falls within some variation of option 1.

Many of us believe Jesus saved us TO something (Life, the kingdom [righteousness, peace, joy], etc.).  But He also saved us from death.  I've been having some questions run through my mind lately about what that death really entails, why is it so vital to escape from and be saved from;  things like why did Jesus die..to save us exactly from what (I know the answer of "from ourselves", etc., but I'm trying to dig deeper than that).   

MY MAIN POINT BEING - thinking about the ET and ED beliefs of absolute AWFULNESS of potential outcome of eternal torture or eternal death, that seems to make salvation a "bigger, more desperate" proposition in those beliefs. 

SECOND MAIN POINT BEING - I wonder if in UR "we" often minimize, white-wash, gloss over some of the reasons people/we might have for avoiding standing before God unprepared.  I think of "it's a fearful thing to fall into the hands of a Living God".  Jesus talked of dying in your sins.  If there aren't some dire consequences, some absolute things to avoid, then "what's the big deal"?   

  So I'm obviously not advocating for eternal hell or needless torture/torment, but I've been feeling a stirring and uneasiness in my soul recently, and I'm wondering if some of us in UR may go "afterlife light" a little too much at times. Do you think there might be reason to believe and teach that facing God unprepared/in unbelief might need to be taken a little more seriously than we sometimes teach it?  In essence, that there really are some significant things to avoid, otherwise why the drastic measure of Christ needing to die and redeem us?  Is there a balance somewhere that includes  "Jesus paid it all",  but also a healthy respect and fear of standing before God "lost in our tresspasses and sins" and what that may mean and look like different than "we'll regret it but God will fix it"? 

I'm interested in hearing thoughts on it, and perhaps different than what some of us may have settled into;  why do you think the seriousness, and what to avoid?


   

[Seth]

To be honest I feel that there is an aspect not represented, which would be salvation, not just from fear or guilt, or afterlife salvation, but salvation from our own actions and the carnal mind that produces those actions today. I tend to focus on that alot because I feel that we concentrate so much on salvation in the afterlife, or salvation from fear and guilt, and not enough on salvation from sin itself today. Not saying that salvation from fear and guilt is not part of it, or that afterlife salvation isn't part of it, but I do believe that salvation from sin itself tends to be forgotten to a degree in salvation discussions. I think about Peter and how he said it would be better that they had no known the way of righteousness, than to know it and turn away. Why? Because they end up worse than before. That is a warning I see often in scripture, which is what I attribute the seriousness to be about, being freed and staying freed from sin.  :2c:

[jabcat]

To be honest I feel that there is an aspect not represented, which would be salvation, not just from fear or guilt, or afterlife salvation, but salvation from our own actions and the carnal mind that produces those actions today. I tend to focus on that alot because I feel that we concentrate so much on salvation in the afterlife, or salvation from fear and guilt, and not enough on salvation from sin itself today. Not saying that salvation from fear and guilt is not part of it, or that afterlife salvation isn't part of it, but I do believe that salvation from sin itself tends to be forgotten to a degree in salvation discussions. I think about Peter and how he said it would be better that they had no known the way of righteousness, than to know it and turn away. Why? Because they end up worse than before. That is a warning I see often in scripture, which is what I attribute the seriousness to be about, being freed and staying freed from sin.  :2c:

Those are good thoughts but I meant those type of aspects (in this life) as included here; 

Many of us believe Jesus saved us TO something (Life, the kingdom [righteousness, peace, joy], etc.).  But He also saved us from death.  I've been having some questions run through my mind lately about what that death really entails, why is it so vital to escape from and be saved from;  things like why did Jesus die..to save us exactly from what (I know the answer of "from ourselves", etc., but I'm trying to dig deeper than that).     

and what I'm really after is if there may be some things we're missing by not warning people about after-life...

[jabcat]

i'll add 'afterlife' to the title of thread :)

and I've added this to #2 - "judgments/loss, etc. are ONLY (or even primarily) in this life"  ..  thanks for pointing out the need for further refinement/clarification..told you it may sound muddled   :laugh:

[Seth]

I'd be interested to hear everyone's thoughts, but I would say absolutely. I believe there is a judgment in the afterlife related to a kind of death (exile) for a time, or a kind of destruction of "natural brute beasts," that while producing the peaceable fruit of righteousness, surely ought to be warned about.

[anti_nietzsche]

I would fall into category 1a), but not for all kinds of sin. As the mosaic law does not count before Christ, sin has to do with Christ's law. It is about love and goodness more than a list of preformulated rules. Remember the Sheep and Goat Judgment in Matthew ... it records no sins but instead it speaks about there having to be care for those who suffer.

We are not only freed from the Law but we are also continually told in Paul's Epistles that we HAVE TO leave the Law aside and instead follow Jesus. And in this Jesus Christ it is love that counts.

And love now is something where it is hard to insert a sin perspective in it, because a loving person must also forgive like we pray in the Our Father. We are told to live in daily forgiveness, and to daily forgive other people as well. I believe this will certainly continue in Heaven so it makes sense to relatify the judgment verses because a) we all sin and need forgiveness and b) a human is not defined only by his police record but also by how God sees him, as his child primarily, and secondarily as someone God would have to judge and police.

We often say that Jesus is Lord, but apparently we do not know what that means. Jesus is the humble and meek Shepherd of our souls who calls us his friends and brothers (Matthew again). Jesus is a friend who became Lord, not a Lord who became friend. I think that Jesus was chosen as Lord by the Father specifically because he is good and kind and humble and meek.

I must add something though. Once in my life I did something odd, I had a relative that was dying of cancer. There was some confusion and I thought I may have contributed to her early death. This was later disproven and I did nothing bad. But for some minutes I had the terrible fear that I may have caused someone's death. Things became so dark for me. I did not know anymore if Jesus Christ could forgive me. It turned out he could, easily, but after all the truth was that I hadn't done something wrong. That's why I think sin matters. If you have really killed someone, you can likely not believe in God's mercy anymore. This is very serious. We believe God forgives us easily, but it depends on the sin. It's hard to feel forgiven sometimes.

[rosered]

I personally   may not fall into any of those categories
I believe we are   very   confused about what is spirit   and what is flesh

I believe even if you live to be 100 years old you can   still be spiritually immature

and  Jesus come and was born of flesh and blood but was ancient in Spirit   maturity  in my opinion, but was set as and example for us   

How can anyone   be given the Spirit without measure  and not be spiritually mature ? 

But grew in truth and grace as an example for us as the WORD  is  a witness  and the Holy Spirit  is also a witness [ I consider the  Father & Son and all that has been gathered already into Christ   as being the Holy Spirit ] consider all that  WISDOM  & MATURITY   ...  Alpha &omega [beginning and end ]ALL THE WORD
being Truth by the HOLY SPIRIT

No one has this in them   while being  in flesh and blood , never was to inherit     any spiritual    anything   , the Word testifies to it

 

I do believe  many    of those sent   are considered [Spiritually mature ]   but not able to   do a thing with this UNTIL    THE FATHER  sets the course of action
  We have to consider everything the Heavenly Father does is for the purpose of ALL      and not just a few chosen for a certain purpose  ,
but experience Gods glory  in that  set   time and place   , out true education will come   after we leave this body of death      , being set in a  body of death is  like   a   womb  , holding something  precious to God    and yet even the precious thing or anyone else has no clue   what it is yet !!

  Like the human form  , when   two become one flesh they   have an offspring  ,  but the ''offspring ''  is not known till it is born    , in the mean time it is incubating   , being formed    , I see this as  those sons of God    being hid in Christ  but not fully known yet    , till the birthing   process and that is done in ONE DAY     

The Day of the Lord ...  one day to God is a 1000  years and a 1000  years is one Day  in Gods sight ...  to me JESUS CHRIST IS   THE DAY    and all things . that Paul was given the   excellent    revelation of knowing and   expounding to us [ALL IN ALL ] nothing that  come   was NOT  from Him  but to Him and for Him   

even   control over death & life    ...  in every sense of the WORD ...   no flesh and blood ever lives to be past   70 years  old more or less  , no  human lives a 1000  years any longer   ,   Adam 930   and his flesh[ curse of death  ]was done away with in Christ ...   every tongue  and knee bows to Jesus Christ   the moment there body of death is done away with in Christ being the LORD /CONTROL OF   DEATH AND LIFE ..    for me all sin and error is in the body of  death , and its  found in the soul / life[being  new or old  ]  and Spirit    that is being judged  according to them works  , fruits , the natural body is discarded as  a dirty  rag    that all filth   was contained in ,,,  this how we can get free now , by thinking in the Spiritual   loving state of being ... our being   goes there with God and has  a connection  , that the old man of sin and error  is  destroyed by the breath of  Christ coming   [ LIGHT TRUTH AND SPIRIT   AS THE WHOLE LOVE OF GOD IS  MANIFESTED ]

ISAIAH  66  BIRTH ONE DAY  Rejoice with Jerusalem[MOTHER OF S ALL ABOVE  comes down to us ]   Galatians .4   [GODS WISDOM justified of Her children ]
7"Before she travailed, she brought forth; Before her pain came, she gave birth to a boy.

8"Who has heard such a thing? Who has seen such things? Can a land be born in one day? Can a nation be brought forth all at once? As soon as Zion travailed, she also brought forth her sons. 9"Shall I bring to the point of birth and not give delivery?" says the LORD. "Or shall I who gives delivery shut the womb?" says your God....

Being born again  as JESUS   revealed in John 3 and Peter  mentions  as incorruptible WORD that never  ceases to exist   and Paul explains in 1Cor 15   


I do believe    Judgment day will be a  lot more different than what    most folks picture in there minds eye  right now   

   I would even go as far as to say that  God in His mercy    has ''kept  those things '''   a secret      from the world and its ways for the   most part   , but has always ''sent '''   someone from above , this is above   knowing   GODS WILL AND PLAN   from the ages    as  a protection   of the most holy and precious things ....
that the world always ''taints ''    and adds to and takes away from    , making the Word True

   making them cursed  for this''  SHORT ''  time as to NOT KNOWING GOD  and suffering the ''human elements '' as tasting death     ...

the ''devil '' only has a short time     .. now  what is the devil again ?   an adversary[fighting against ]   slandering and murdering   against  Gods will ...  as to knowing  Gods  love and mercy and wisdom and   will /purpose /desire that NONE should perish   but have eternal life[CHRIST ]  in them ...

I am not trying to ''confuse ''     the issues    here , but   GOD IS SOOOO ABOVE ''   all our thoughts and ways   , we can only have a tiny  ''piece /part ''  of the WHOLE   and the Whole is   UNFATHOMABLE      as we wait on the Lord   

This world as we know it is the testing grounds   and proof   there is a hell /judgment  in the earth [our natural bodies ] IN  THE SENSE OF  graves    , those dead shall rise  up in LIFE and  the fires of torment  are evident in all the suffering and  evil many have become '' numb''   to  as faith is  tested to the very end of their own  lives , thinking death would be  better than this  existence , so many are slaves to sin their own desires   causing great harm    to the    HOLY ONE and those holy ones   born in Christ
  the world will never ever be worthy of ..

This is just one  opinion   to be taken with a grain of salt ,       I am humbled  daily with all the love that does come   from the suffering  , and know it is the Lord still being merciful to us all   

[HungerForTruth]

Just a quick answer from me:  You DO reap what you sow.  I believe there will be a purging (corrective restoring punishment from a loving Father) after death of believers who lived in sin and the unsaved in time.  It can be severe and truly awful.  My dad used to correctively punish me - and it was truly awful and painful at times. 

So - Who needs that?  Believe and pursue holiness - in a loving non-judgemental way.  Which totally means reliance on the Spirit - for the flesh profits nothing and is incapable of pursuing holiness without becoming judgemental.

[Aerex]

Wouldn't that mean fear would be a greater focus than the loving God? HungerForTruth mentioned his earthly father, when I was younger I was on constant fear if I did something very wrong I would be punished with a beating or something that I prized was taking from me. Thus my adolescent thinks that if I don't obey I am going to be punish. I don't even think about the why. I think most Christians don't think of the why they just don't want to get punish.

You can obey God or your fathers but that does not mean you love or understand them. I don't think this lake of fire judgement is any worse then the harshness of life. We all experience it some in this life ( usually the elect) and the rest in the afterlife.

As weird as it may sound I don't think punishment as a bad thing but necessary thing to get to where we need to be and if that were not the case God would not have created us sin. ( marred in the flesh)

[HungerForTruth]

Wouldn't that mean fear would be a greater focus than the loving God? HungerForTruth mentioned his earthly father, when I was younger I was on constant fear if I did something very wrong I would be punished with a beating or something that I prized was taking from me. Thus my adolescent thinks that if I don't obey I am going to be punish. I don't even think about the why. I think most Christians don't think of the why they just don't want to get punish.

You can obey God or your fathers but that does not mean you love or understand them. I don't think this lake of fire judgement is any worse then the harshness of life. We all experience it some in this life ( usually the elect) and the rest in the afterlife.

As weird as it may sound I don't think punishment as a bad thing but necessary thing to get to where we need to be and if that were not the case God would not have created us sin. ( marred in the flesh)

great points

[Lazarus Short]

Why do we need to worry about it in the here-and-now?  Think of a blind man who is about to receive his sight - he might wonder what he will need to do and not do with this new sense, but he cannot even imagine.  When the time comes, he will quickly learn such things as "Don't stare at the Sun." or "Let your eyes adjust when you step into the dark or into the light."

[Seth]

Just a quick answer from me:  You DO reap what you sow.  I believe there will be a purging (corrective restoring punishment from a loving Father) after death of believers who lived in sin and the unsaved in time.  It can be severe and truly awful.  My dad used to correctively punish me - and it was truly awful and painful at times. 

So - Who needs that?  Believe and pursue holiness - in a loving non-judgemental way.  Which totally means reliance on the Spirit - for the flesh profits nothing and is incapable of pursuing holiness without becoming judgemental.

:iagree:

[Seth]

Wouldn't that mean fear would be a greater focus than the loving God? HungerForTruth mentioned his earthly father, when I was younger I was on constant fear if I did something very wrong I would be punished with a beating or something that I prized was taking from me. Thus my adolescent thinks that if I don't obey I am going to be punish. I don't even think about the why. I think most Christians don't think of the why they just don't want to get punish.

You can obey God or your fathers but that does not mean you love or understand them. I don't think this lake of fire judgement is any worse then the harshness of life. We all experience it some in this life ( usually the elect) and the rest in the afterlife.

As weird as it may sound I don't think punishment as a bad thing but necessary thing to get to where we need to be and if that were not the case God would not have created us sin. ( marred in the flesh)

Since I see a parallel between the prodigal son parable and the afterlife judgement, I agree with this as well. For those who never heard of God and were completely ignorant, it could be as simple as repentance and entering into life, and for others, especially Peter's "natural brute beasts" (2 Peter 2) cutting through the haze of pride could require an "away from me, he who work iniquity" experience.

I think there's definitely a less stripes vs. more stripes situation to it.

[sheila]

 considering these things...I believe we miss the mark if we fail to consider the heart of the Father.   Many stripes or few pertaining

to those who knew..and the ignorant. Consider sodom and gomorahs judgement...destruction in one day...and the desolation

  of Jerusalem  5 month seige of starvation...70 years captivity in Babylon etc...   5 months praying for death versus death in one hour.

       His wrath endures but for a moment.........His mercies forever....can't neglect the scriptures that testify to His heart.

      .....the dead prodigal's coming home....can't neglect the testimony of the Father's heart there either. nor the fact that He gave

   His son..while we were yet enemies.   Nor can we ignore His all encompassing judgements..of binding up all men in sin/appointed

to die once..and all men to recieve the free gift of mercy grace/eternal life.    Let your 'yeah' mean 'yeah' and your 'nay' mean 'nay'

.....anything else is from the evil/wicked one.  Indeed, sin condemned in all flesh/corruptible image and can not inherit the kingdom

  is the 'NAY" of His judgements.  The free gift of eternal life..that all men be raised up in Christ's image..is the 'YEAH"

    He in His wisdom has judged thus...and who am I to put anything to His words/judgements and commands....

     the Father knows how to deal with His children...what discipline/correction and forming must take place for each one......

    we shall all be the work of His hands...as He makes over all of His sons and daughters in the image of His only begotton.

    ....there is a place prepared in the body of Christ for every one....that all may be in Him and He may be in all.

       a word to all at the right time....prepare to meet YOUR GOD...we will all have to stand before Him...He knows were coming

    ....He will recieve we prodigals home with love[all who died in Adam are prodigal's]  He will be silent in His love...there will be

  no accuser in Heaven...He will remember our sins no more............HIS MERCY ENDURES FOREVER...there will just be the Father's

  joy...that my son which was dead..is alive!!!!!

[Seth]

 :thumbsup: amen

[anti_nietzsche]

 :iagree: Sheila, well said!

[HungerForTruth]

considering these things...I believe we miss the mark if we fail to consider the heart of the Father.   Many stripes or few pertaining

to those who knew..and the ignorant. Consider sodom and gomorahs judgement...destruction in one day...and the desolation

  of Jerusalem  5 month seige of starvation...70 years captivity in Babylon etc...   5 months praying for death versus death in one hour.

       His wrath endures but for a moment.........His mercies forever....can't neglect the scriptures that testify to His heart.

      .....the dead prodigal's coming home....can't neglect the testimony of the Father's heart there either. nor the fact that He gave

   His son..while we were yet enemies.   Nor can we ignore His all encompassing judgements..of binding up all men in sin/appointed

to die once..and all men to recieve the free gift of mercy grace/eternal life.    Let your 'yeah' mean 'yeah' and your 'nay' mean 'nay'

.....anything else is from the evil/wicked one.  Indeed, sin condemned in all flesh/corruptible image and can not inherit the kingdom

  is the 'NAY" of His judgements.  The free gift of eternal life..that all men be raised up in Christ's image..is the 'YEAH"

    He in His wisdom has judged thus...and who am I to put anything to His words/judgements and commands....

     the Father knows how to deal with His children...what discipline/correction and forming must take place for each one......

    we shall all be the work of His hands...as He makes over all of His sons and daughters in the image of His only begotton.

    ....there is a place prepared in the body of Christ for every one....that all may be in Him and He may be in all.

       a word to all at the right time....prepare to meet YOUR GOD...we will all have to stand before Him...He knows were coming

    ....He will recieve we prodigals home with love[all who died in Adam are prodigal's]  He will be silent in His love...there will be

  no accuser in Heaven...He will remember our sins no more............HIS MERCY ENDURES FOREVER...there will just be the Father's

  joy...that my son which was dead..is alive!!!!!

wow - much food for thought.  And manna it is!  Thank you.

[eaglesway]

I would be category 1 james, with the exception of the fact that I think the fire is the light and love of God piercing the veils of rebellion and lies in man, consuming hate and self lordship, burning into the heart and mind His wisdom and His love until the heart is broken and the veil removed and His glory and love flows in as the renewed vessel rejoices- bowing to His Lordship and confessing His glory.

There will be no accuser in heaven, but there will be a recckoning at the great white throne. For some that reckoning will mean glory and honor, for some a few stripes. For some that reckoning will mean many stripes.

There will be many who will say to Him on that day, "Lord, Lord....." he will say to them depart from me into the fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

The courts were sat and the books were opened........

Their consciences either accusing or excusing them on the day when God judges the secrets of men's hearts by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.

If your right eye causes you to offend pluck it out for it would be better to enter heaven maimed than to enter the gehenna  of fire.

All the things we must avoid in the afterlife, must be voided in this life ;o)

For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be abolished is death. 27 For He has put all things in subjection under His feet. But when He says, "All things are put in subjection," it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him. 28 When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.

Some of those adversaries will be subjected in the lake of fire!  :eek:

See to it that you do not refuse Him who is speaking. For if those did not escape when they refused him who warned them on earth, much less will we escape who turn away from Him who warns from heaven. 26 And His voice shook the earth then, but now He has promised, saying, "Yet once more I will shake not only the earth, but also the heaven." 27 This expression, "Yet once more," denotes the removing of those things which can be shaken, as of created things, so that those things which cannot be shaken may remain. 28 Therefore, since we receive a kingdom which cannot be shaken, let us show gratitude, by which we may offer to God an acceptable service with reverence and awe; 29 for our God is a consuming fire.

On the day that every person dies, their "Yet once more" comes upon them. Every thing that can be shaken will be shaken, until only that which cannot be shaklen remains. Every bit of wood, hay and stubble will be consumed, in the Day of His appearing, before the brightness of His presence and radiance of His glory. Every secret will be brought to light and for the wicked, that which they refused to acknowledge in life will pierce them with unapproachable light and they will, in their turn, before the overwhelming power of His love and the fire of His truth, bow the knee and confess His Lordship.

Accorrding to Jesus, and John, and Paul- it will not be pretty. It will not be easy. It IS to be avoided.

Better to confess Today, "Father forgive me". Better to serve and obey. Better to abiide in Him because for those who do there will be nothing to avoid in the afterlife, only entering the joy of their Lord.


"Well done, Good and faithful servant". :o)

[marie glen]

I fall most into the 1a category..

1)  instant salvation in next life for some as they quickly recognize the Savior, corrective punishment for varying lengths of duration for others.  1a)  some believe this is guilt and remorse of the mind, a sort of spiritual torment

why do you think the seriousness, and what to avoid?

So I do think the 2nd resurrection is (far) inferior to the first and far less joyful.. though, imo, it does catch up.. and as you wrote different degrees of remorse and repentance, and even for some, torment in, and in glaring comparison to, God's bright light of holiness and purity.

And in here, to me fits "the queen of the south will rise up in (the) judgment against this generation for a greater than Solomon is here.." and "..it will be better for Sodom and Gomorrah in the judgment than for you.." (pharisees of? cities which rejected Him..)

and also "there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth" and "all the ends of the earth will turn to the LORD, and  all families of the nations will worship before Him.."

The "danger" to me is an illustration. That God endowed thinking ability (which includes limited, very limited ability to make choices) but God is both Life and Perfection, thus imperfect (us/choices which disagree with His choices/imperfection) is the opposite of life, hence the rescue needed.. from self and from "death' which to me, is nonlife.

So the "danger" to me is a living illustration He is making, that non-life could be a very real possibility and potential, and indeed w/o God's Great Plan of Salvation (through Jesus and His crucifixion, etc) we aLL would perish. (Therefor, in the 'end' all will fully understand that to wander from God in thought, word or deed, is to become imperfect, the opposite of life, hence is to fade... cease to be.. The whole ultimate reality hinging upon the one thing - (close) relationship with our Father and Creator...
    :2c: :smile: great post and idea for discussion!! :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[marie glen]

I must add something though. Once in my life I did something odd, I had a relative that was dying of cancer. There was some confusion and I thought I may have contributed to her early death. This was later disproven and I did nothing bad. But for some minutes I had the terrible fear that I may have caused someone's death. Things became so dark for me. I did not know anymore if Jesus Christ could forgive me. It turned out he could, easily, but after all the truth was that I hadn't done something wrong. That's why I think sin matters. If you have really killed someone, you can likely not believe in God's mercy anymore. This is very serious. We believe God forgives us easily, but it depends on the sin. It's hard to feel forgiven sometimes.

This, anti_nietzsche, perfectly communicates (to me) the horror that is sin (imo, imperfection,as opposed to His Perfection).. and the horror is of different degrees.. in my own heart, there are differing degrees of horror.. from feeling foolish over some foolish thing I did, etc, to feeling horror over some more terrible thing I may have done.. this makes me ponder what it would be like to awaken to the reality that I had done great evil like a genocide or been an evil despot over many.. And then the horror would be even worse if it was done, not from being thoroughly deceived, but because there was happiness or enjoyment in doing it.. in harming others that is.. oh man.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: @ Jab.....I couldn't agree more with your point of minimizing, which is why I have told my view repeatedly. I found it interesting that I agreed with a belief of the Jews that was posted this week, about creating the things we are judged by, considering I heard this 29 years ago from a non-Jewish source who said the Lord told her that was where the demon that attacked her had come from (she created it out of the hate and murder of her own heart), which was a shock to both of us. And I have seen it played out for real. We ARE caused to eat of the fruit of our own lips, and with our OWN wickedness are we reproved, and all of it comes out of the heart of man where Jesus said it did.

It goes back to the two seeds, in the beginning (Adam's and Satan's, Abel and Cain), which has multiplied to be the wheat and the tares by Matt. 13. Note in Matt. 13 it says the world He is talking about is the field where the good seed (Christ) is planted, and that the removal of the tares and catching up of the wheat, is the end of this world (of iniquity), that field that we all are.

The "hell" that exists is in our own hearts, which is why without Him cleansing the inside of the cup, He told them they would die in their sins. In, because we, and Christ within  us, are surrounded by the principalities called sin. Antichrist literally means against Christ, and it's not only in the thought of opposition but POSITION, ie. covering the light as a basket covers a candle.

A Dr. Eby wrote a book about his near-death experience. In actuality he really did die. He described being in a cave, surrounded by beings speaking to him and mocking him. Though he didn't realize it, the cave was his own stony heart that he (the spark of who he is) descended into, and what awaited him was his own creations. Whatever our soul does not overcome thru the blood of the Lamb in life, we see face to face in death. Thank God He is merciful, and this chastening does not last forever.

Eve was Adam's stony heart (bones are made of minerals = stones), and God took her out of him because He wanted him to see what was in his heart, face to face. The same principle was shown when He took the Israelites out of Egypt into the wilderness to show them what was in their hearts (Deut. 7).

We were made in His image, both male and female in one, spirit and soul, male and female made He THEM. Being made in His image with both means we are capable of creating new life, only without Him operating thru us, what we create is really the things of death, because only wickedness comes out of the heart of man continually, by itself.

When Satan came on the scene, he raped Eve (rape is also the act of imposing your will on another) and spiritually murdered her husband. He was a murderer from the beginning. He displayed this again with David and Bathsheba. And tried it on Jesus thru Peter when Jesus was speaking about the manner in which He should die (be it far from you, Lord), hoping to impose his will on Jesus, so that His covering would be absent from disobedience, and he could then kill Him. My  :2c: Blessings....

[sheila]

  yes..it is the LORD LORD CLASS that needs the light of His love to pierce the veil the most...those that are more accountable...those

  that claim they have the light in them.  Never-the-less...when their own hearts condemn them...HE IS GREATER THAN THEIR HEARTS.

   the same/in agreement/hypocritical/religious spirits..that are inreality of the synogogue of satan..that constantly accuse and persecute

  the children of the promised seed. Not quenching their spiritual thirst with waters of life..nor covering their nakedness with Christ's

redemptive blood/garment of salvation. Not freeing their spirit from the bonds of corruption[body of death]not visiting the sick with

a word of healing...but instead cast them out with the same judgement as demons....and reckon them with the cursed...these

ARE THE ONES WHO RECIEVE HEAVIER JUDGEMENT...BECAUSE AS THEY JUDGED MEN...SO SHALL THEY BE JUDGED!

  this babylon religion that set herself up as queen of heaven..all the bloodguilt comes on her!!


   Judge not,lest ye be judged. Keep this command /word


    Jesus said ;I JUDGE NO MAN"  Jesus said ;THE FATHER JUDGES NO MAN"   Jesus said' THINK NOT THAT I WILL ACCUSE YOU IF YE

BELIEVE ME NOT...Ye judge after the flesh[what did we not know sin in flesh condemned in all men]  John 8;15


   If ye keep not His command to judge not..lest ye be judged..you will find out.  If you keep preaching condemnation and accusation

against all men bought/redeemed by Christ's blood...where is your faith? Because you do not behold it in your flesh with your own eyes

you set it at naught? TODAY IF YE HEAR HIS VOICE......doubt not!


   the offspring of viper spirit in the pharisees and sadducees judged after the appearance of the flesh...persecuted the children

of the promise..cast them out as the cursed of God.[ye demon possessed].along with He that bought them......pursued and

accused and persecuted.And their dead bodies certainly were thrown into gehenna right outside Jerusalem


   Keep His commandments..judge not..bless and curse not..freely forgive as ye are forgiven..love your fellow man as yourself..

    Love the Father with your whole HEART MIND STRENGTH.. LOVE THE LORD WHO BOUGHT YOU

  .for you will stand before Him and give an account......


  all adversaries of LIFE IN CHRIST FOR ALL MEN WILL BE ANNHILATED...accusors/liars into lof with the demons.....O'Death

  I shall be thy plagues!!!


   Thank God Jesus come in flesh and the appearance of sin..and voided the documents against us...nailing them to the stake.....

  and recieved the commandment unto life.  Crushed the mind of the serpent with it's constant accusing...know ye not that

when the accusor is thrown out of heaven..he pursues/persecutes the woman who has the seed of promise.  Know ye not that

all dead in Adam are redeemed and now heirs of the promise..to be raised up in Christ?    Know ye not that He said He will not

always find fault?

[marie glen]

So - Who needs that?  Believe and pursue holiness - in a loving non-judgemental way.  Which totally means reliance on the Spirit - for the flesh profits nothing and is incapable of pursuing holiness without becoming judgemental.

Amen!

thumbsup: :thumbsup:

"for the flesh profits nothing and is incapable of pursuing holiness without becoming judgemental." :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

     the Father knows how to deal with His children...what discipline/correction and forming must take place for each one......

    we shall all be the work of His hands...as He makes over all of His sons and daughters in the image of His only begotton.

    ....there is a place prepared in the body of Christ for every one....that all may be in Him and He may be in all.

       a word to all at the right time....prepare to meet YOUR GOD...we will all have to stand before Him...He knows were coming

    ....He will recieve we prodigals home with love[all who died in Adam are prodigal's]  He will be silent in His love...there will be

  no accuser in Heaven...He will remember our sins no more............HIS MERCY ENDURES FOREVER...there will just be the Father's

  joy...that my son which was dead..is alive!!!!!

    :thumbsup: :thumbsup:  :dsunny:

Some of those adversaries will be subjected in the lake of fire!  :eek:

I think that's possible.. Great verses, EW..

Yet once more I will shake not only the earth, but also the heaven." 27 This expression, "Yet once more," denotes the removing of those things which can be shaken, as of created things, so that those things which cannot be shaken may remain. 28 Therefore, since we receive a kingdom which cannot be shaken, let us show gratitude, by which we may offer to God an acceptable service with reverence and awe; 29 for our God is a consuming fire.

...the judging of the world and separating of the sheep and goats at His return.. tho I imagine we all will have some amount of self correction in His marvelous light (the shaking of the within) ..and also some believers spared, others spared as by fire, but their works burned up..
When your Lord cometh.. few stripes/many stripes..

And then "when the thousand years are over" Rev 20:7... the Great White Throne judgment.. "But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished..  And I saw a great white throne, and Him who is sitting upon it.. and I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and scrolls were opened, and another scroll was opened.." 20:5,11,12

...the shaking loose of those things which can be shaken.. And I'm thinking this also occurs now and during this life, to believers.. some of us, per human nature, perhaps will be found more stubborn than others.. And so too I'm thinking with the 2nd resurrection and at the Great White Throne. Some more stubborn than others.. to the point of some, I would imagine, such habitual hardening of the heart against God so severe, they cannot so easily repent (the 'unforgivable' sin Jesus warned about).. To LOF with them is my musing.. Those still not bending the knee/believing/loving God at the close of the GWT judgment -> LOF (aionian) :2c: :2c: :smile:

[sheila]

Bex,enjoying your posts...they are speaking to me.... widen out our hearts..widen out our affections.  Of Jerusalem it is said.....

   widen out your tent stakes..and it will yet be said to her....make room for us to dwell......so many/numerous her children.

last week my eyes looked on a land that strertched wider and farther than my eyes could see...I was given a glimpse of paradise and

that which is eternal...people of all generations/cultures ethnicities....all restored...beyond compare in beauty....brown islanders

with braided hair..with palm trees singing worshipful praise in reggae style!...I saw all people who ever lived or will live..happy restored

  singing and praising Him in song...dwelling in such a beautific land.


    we ALL have a place prepared for us there.........

   Try me out in this manner...and see if I do not open the floodgates of heaven and pour out such a blessing until there is no more want.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Amen, awesome..... joy cometh in the morning.....we just got to get thru the dark night of the soul..... :iagree: