I'm trying to put some thoughts down that might seem muddled, hopefully you'll get what I'm after and not think I'm preaching some sort of damnation and fear. I think there's a legitimate question in here if you can ferret it out.
ET believes (in large part) salvation is from eternal torment in hell. ED believes to a large extent salvation is from eternal death/totally ceasing to exist; only the saved/righteous are raised to eternal life. UR believes various things;
1) instant salvation in next life for some as they quickly recognize the Savior, corrective punishment for varying lengths of duration for others. 1a) some believe this is guilt and remorse of the mind, a sort of spiritual torment, while 1b) others believe it's a literal burning hell that one "escapes" from when their heart is truly changed, they've repented, and Jesus is accepted/recognized as Savior
2) instant salvation in next life for all, "simply" when the fleshly body is cast off and become completely a spiritual being - judgments/loss, etc. are ONLY (or even primarily) in this life
3) all have already received salvation, whether Islamic, Jew, atheist; everything's already done (and even there's now no such thing as sin) it's just a matter of dying and waking up in the heaven
I tend to fall in category 1, and specifically 1a. I'd say that Gary and TM ministries also falls within some variation of option 1.
Many of us believe Jesus saved us TO something (Life, the kingdom [righteousness, peace, joy], etc.). But He also saved us from death. I've been having some questions run through my mind lately about what that death really entails, why is it so vital to escape from and be saved from; things like why did Jesus die..to save us exactly from what (I know the answer of "from ourselves", etc., but I'm trying to dig deeper than that).
MY MAIN POINT BEING - thinking about the ET and ED beliefs of absolute AWFULNESS of potential outcome of eternal torture or eternal death, that seems to make salvation a "bigger, more desperate" proposition in those beliefs.
SECOND MAIN POINT BEING - I wonder if in UR "we" often minimize, white-wash, gloss over some of the reasons people/we might have for avoiding standing before God unprepared. I think of "it's a fearful thing to fall into the hands of a Living God". Jesus talked of dying in your sins. If there aren't some dire consequences, some absolute things to avoid, then "what's the big deal"?
So I'm obviously not advocating for eternal hell or needless torture/torment, but I've been feeling a stirring and uneasiness in my soul recently, and I'm wondering if some of us in UR may go "afterlife light" a little too much at times. Do you think there might be reason to believe and teach that facing God unprepared/in unbelief might need to be taken a little more seriously than we sometimes teach it? In essence, that there really are some significant things to avoid, otherwise why the drastic measure of Christ needing to die and redeem us? Is there a balance somewhere that includes "Jesus paid it all", but also a healthy respect and fear of standing before God "lost in our tresspasses and sins" and what that may mean and look like different than "we'll regret it but God will fix it"?
I'm interested in hearing thoughts on it, and perhaps different than what some of us may have settled into; why do you think the seriousness, and what to avoid?
To be honest I feel that there is an aspect not represented, which would be salvation, not just from fear or guilt, or afterlife salvation, but salvation from our own actions and the carnal mind that produces those actions today. I tend to focus on that alot because I feel that we concentrate so much on salvation in the afterlife, or salvation from fear and guilt, and not enough on salvation from sin itself today. Not saying that salvation from fear and guilt is not part of it, or that afterlife salvation isn't part of it, but I do believe that salvation from sin itself tends to be forgotten to a degree in salvation discussions. I think about Peter and how he said it would be better that they had no known the way of righteousness, than to know it and turn away. Why? Because they end up worse than before. That is a warning I see often in scripture, which is what I attribute the seriousness to be about, being freed and staying freed from sin. :2c:
Quote from: Seth on August 20, 2015, 07:45:25 AM
To be honest I feel that there is an aspect not represented, which would be salvation, not just from fear or guilt, or afterlife salvation, but salvation from our own actions and the carnal mind that produces those actions today. I tend to focus on that alot because I feel that we concentrate so much on salvation in the afterlife, or salvation from fear and guilt, and not enough on salvation from sin itself today. Not saying that salvation from fear and guilt is not part of it, or that afterlife salvation isn't part of it, but I do believe that salvation from sin itself tends to be forgotten to a degree in salvation discussions. I think about Peter and how he said it would be better that they had no known the way of righteousness, than to know it and turn away. Why? Because they end up worse than before. That is a warning I see often in scripture, which is what I attribute the seriousness to be about, being freed and staying freed from sin. :2c:
Those are good thoughts but I meant those type of aspects (in this life) as included here;
Quote from: jabcat on August 20, 2015, 07:08:13 AM
Many of us believe Jesus saved us TO something (Life, the kingdom [righteousness, peace, joy], etc.). But He also saved us from death. I've been having some questions run through my mind lately about what that death really entails, why is it so vital to escape from and be saved from; things like why did Jesus die..to save us exactly from what (I know the answer of "from ourselves", etc., but I'm trying to dig deeper than that).
and what I'm
really after is if there may be some things we're missing by not warning people about
after-life...
i'll add 'afterlife' to the title of thread :)
and I've added this to #2 - "judgments/loss, etc. are ONLY (or even primarily) in this life" .. thanks for pointing out the need for further refinement/clarification..told you it may sound muddled :laugh:
I'd be interested to hear everyone's thoughts, but I would say absolutely. I believe there is a judgment in the afterlife related to a kind of death (exile) for a time, or a kind of destruction of "natural brute beasts," that while producing the peaceable fruit of righteousness, surely ought to be warned about.
I would fall into category 1a), but not for all kinds of sin. As the mosaic law does not count before Christ, sin has to do with Christ's law. It is about love and goodness more than a list of preformulated rules. Remember the Sheep and Goat Judgment in Matthew ... it records no sins but instead it speaks about there having to be care for those who suffer.
We are not only freed from the Law but we are also continually told in Paul's Epistles that we HAVE TO leave the Law aside and instead follow Jesus. And in this Jesus Christ it is love that counts.
And love now is something where it is hard to insert a sin perspective in it, because a loving person must also forgive like we pray in the Our Father. We are told to live in daily forgiveness, and to daily forgive other people as well. I believe this will certainly continue in Heaven so it makes sense to relatify the judgment verses because a) we all sin and need forgiveness and b) a human is not defined only by his police record but also by how God sees him, as his child primarily, and secondarily as someone God would have to judge and police.
We often say that Jesus is Lord, but apparently we do not know what that means. Jesus is the humble and meek Shepherd of our souls who calls us his friends and brothers (Matthew again). Jesus is a friend who became Lord, not a Lord who became friend. I think that Jesus was chosen as Lord by the Father specifically because he is good and kind and humble and meek.
I must add something though. Once in my life I did something odd, I had a relative that was dying of cancer. There was some confusion and I thought I may have contributed to her early death. This was later disproven and I did nothing bad. But for some minutes I had the terrible fear that I may have caused someone's death. Things became so dark for me. I did not know anymore if Jesus Christ could forgive me. It turned out he could, easily, but after all the truth was that I hadn't done something wrong. That's why I think sin matters. If you have really killed someone, you can likely not believe in God's mercy anymore. This is very serious. We believe God forgives us easily, but it depends on the sin. It's hard to feel forgiven sometimes.
I personally may not fall into any of those categories
I believe we are very confused about what is spirit and what is flesh
I believe even if you live to be 100 years old you can still be spiritually immature
and Jesus come and was born of flesh and blood but was ancient in Spirit maturity in my opinion, but was set as and example for us
How can anyone be given the Spirit without measure and not be spiritually mature ?
But grew in truth and grace as an example for us as the WORD is a witness and the Holy Spirit is also a witness [ I consider the Father & Son and all that has been gathered already into Christ as being the Holy Spirit ] consider all that WISDOM & MATURITY ... Alpha &omega [beginning and end ]ALL THE WORD
being Truth by the HOLY SPIRIT
No one has this in them while being in flesh and blood , never was to inherit any spiritual anything , the Word testifies to it
I do believe many of those sent are considered [Spiritually mature ] but not able to do a thing with this UNTIL THE FATHER sets the course of action
We have to consider everything the Heavenly Father does is for the purpose of ALL and not just a few chosen for a certain purpose ,
but experience Gods glory in that set time and place , out true education will come after we leave this body of death , being set in a body of death is like a womb , holding something precious to God and yet even the precious thing or anyone else has no clue what it is yet !!
Like the human form , when two become one flesh they have an offspring , but the ''offspring '' is not known till it is born , in the mean time it is incubating , being formed , I see this as those sons of God being hid in Christ but not fully known yet , till the birthing process and that is done in ONE DAY
The Day of the Lord ... one day to God is a 1000 years and a 1000 years is one Day in Gods sight ... to me JESUS CHRIST IS THE DAY and all things . that Paul was given the excellent revelation of knowing and expounding to us [ALL IN ALL ] nothing that come was NOT from Him but to Him and for Him
even control over death & life ... in every sense of the WORD ... no flesh and blood ever lives to be past 70 years old more or less , no human lives a 1000 years any longer , Adam 930 and his flesh[ curse of death ]was done away with in Christ ... every tongue and knee bows to Jesus Christ the moment there body of death is done away with in Christ being the LORD /CONTROL OF DEATH AND LIFE .. for me all sin and error is in the body of death , and its found in the soul / life[being new or old ] and Spirit that is being judged according to them works , fruits , the natural body is discarded as a dirty rag that all filth was contained in ,,, this how we can get free now , by thinking in the Spiritual loving state of being ... our being goes there with God and has a connection , that the old man of sin and error is destroyed by the breath of Christ coming [ LIGHT TRUTH AND SPIRIT AS THE WHOLE LOVE OF GOD IS MANIFESTED ]
ISAIAH 66 BIRTH ONE DAY Rejoice with Jerusalem[MOTHER OF S ALL ABOVE comes down to us ] Galatians .4 [GODS WISDOM justified of Her children ]
7"Before she travailed, she brought forth; Before her pain came, she gave birth to a boy.
8"Who has heard such a thing? Who has seen such things? Can a land be born in one day? Can a nation be brought forth all at once? As soon as Zion travailed, she also brought forth her sons. 9"Shall I bring to the point of birth and not give delivery?" says the LORD. "Or shall I who gives delivery shut the womb?" says your God....
Being born again as JESUS revealed in John 3 and Peter mentions as incorruptible WORD that never ceases to exist and Paul explains in 1Cor 15
I do believe Judgment day will be a lot more different than what most folks picture in there minds eye right now
I would even go as far as to say that God in His mercy has ''kept those things ''' a secret from the world and its ways for the most part , but has always ''sent ''' someone from above , this is above knowing GODS WILL AND PLAN from the ages as a protection of the most holy and precious things ....
that the world always ''taints '' and adds to and takes away from , making the Word True
making them cursed for this'' SHORT '' time as to NOT KNOWING GOD and suffering the ''human elements '' as tasting death ...
the ''devil '' only has a short time .. now what is the devil again ? an adversary[fighting against ] slandering and murdering against Gods will ... as to knowing Gods love and mercy and wisdom and will /purpose /desire that NONE should perish but have eternal life[CHRIST ] in them ...
I am not trying to ''confuse '' the issues here , but GOD IS SOOOO ABOVE '' all our thoughts and ways , we can only have a tiny ''piece /part '' of the WHOLE and the Whole is UNFATHOMABLE as we wait on the Lord
This world as we know it is the testing grounds and proof there is a hell /judgment in the earth [our natural bodies ] IN THE SENSE OF graves , those dead shall rise up in LIFE and the fires of torment are evident in all the suffering and evil many have become '' numb'' to as faith is tested to the very end of their own lives , thinking death would be better than this existence , so many are slaves to sin their own desires causing great harm to the HOLY ONE and those holy ones born in Christ
the world will never ever be worthy of ..
This is just one opinion to be taken with a grain of salt , I am humbled daily with all the love that does come from the suffering , and know it is the Lord still being merciful to us all
Just a quick answer from me: You DO reap what you sow. I believe there will be a purging (corrective restoring punishment from a loving Father) after death of believers who lived in sin and the unsaved in time. It can be severe and truly awful. My dad used to correctively punish me - and it was truly awful and painful at times.
So - Who needs that? Believe and pursue holiness - in a loving non-judgemental way. Which totally means reliance on the Spirit - for the flesh profits nothing and is incapable of pursuing holiness without becoming judgemental.
Wouldn't that mean fear would be a greater focus than the loving God? HungerForTruth mentioned his earthly father, when I was younger I was on constant fear if I did something very wrong I would be punished with a beating or something that I prized was taking from me. Thus my adolescent thinks that if I don't obey I am going to be punish. I don't even think about the why. I think most Christians don't think of the why they just don't want to get punish.
You can obey God or your fathers but that does not mean you love or understand them. I don't think this lake of fire judgement is any worse then the harshness of life. We all experience it some in this life ( usually the elect) and the rest in the afterlife.
As weird as it may sound I don't think punishment as a bad thing but necessary thing to get to where we need to be and if that were not the case God would not have created us sin. ( marred in the flesh)
Quote from: Aerex on August 20, 2015, 03:31:14 PM
Wouldn't that mean fear would be a greater focus than the loving God? HungerForTruth mentioned his earthly father, when I was younger I was on constant fear if I did something very wrong I would be punished with a beating or something that I prized was taking from me. Thus my adolescent thinks that if I don't obey I am going to be punish. I don't even think about the why. I think most Christians don't think of the why they just don't want to get punish.
You can obey God or your fathers but that does not mean you love or understand them. I don't think this lake of fire judgement is any worse then the harshness of life. We all experience it some in this life ( usually the elect) and the rest in the afterlife.
As weird as it may sound I don't think punishment as a bad thing but necessary thing to get to where we need to be and if that were not the case God would not have created us sin. ( marred in the flesh)
great points
Why do we need to worry about it in the here-and-now? Think of a blind man who is about to receive his sight - he might wonder what he will need to do and not do with this new sense, but he cannot even imagine. When the time comes, he will quickly learn such things as "Don't stare at the Sun." or "Let your eyes adjust when you step into the dark or into the light."
Quote from: HungerForTruth on August 20, 2015, 03:04:32 PM
Just a quick answer from me: You DO reap what you sow. I believe there will be a purging (corrective restoring punishment from a loving Father) after death of believers who lived in sin and the unsaved in time. It can be severe and truly awful. My dad used to correctively punish me - and it was truly awful and painful at times.
So - Who needs that? Believe and pursue holiness - in a loving non-judgemental way. Which totally means reliance on the Spirit - for the flesh profits nothing and is incapable of pursuing holiness without becoming judgemental.
:iagree:
Quote from: Aerex on August 20, 2015, 03:31:14 PM
Wouldn't that mean fear would be a greater focus than the loving God? HungerForTruth mentioned his earthly father, when I was younger I was on constant fear if I did something very wrong I would be punished with a beating or something that I prized was taking from me. Thus my adolescent thinks that if I don't obey I am going to be punish. I don't even think about the why. I think most Christians don't think of the why they just don't want to get punish.
You can obey God or your fathers but that does not mean you love or understand them. I don't think this lake of fire judgement is any worse then the harshness of life. We all experience it some in this life ( usually the elect) and the rest in the afterlife.
As weird as it may sound I don't think punishment as a bad thing but necessary thing to get to where we need to be and if that were not the case God would not have created us sin. ( marred in the flesh)
Since I see a parallel between the prodigal son parable and the afterlife judgement, I agree with this as well. For those who never heard of God and were completely ignorant, it could be as simple as repentance and entering into life, and for others, especially Peter's "natural brute beasts" (2 Peter 2) cutting through the haze of pride could require an "away from me, he who work iniquity" experience.
I think there's definitely a less stripes vs. more stripes situation to it.
considering these things...I believe we miss the mark if we fail to consider the heart of the Father. Many stripes or few pertaining
to those who knew..and the ignorant. Consider sodom and gomorahs judgement...destruction in one day...and the desolation
of Jerusalem 5 month seige of starvation...70 years captivity in Babylon etc... 5 months praying for death versus death in one hour.
His wrath endures but for a moment.........His mercies forever....can't neglect the scriptures that testify to His heart.
.....the dead prodigal's coming home....can't neglect the testimony of the Father's heart there either. nor the fact that He gave
His son..while we were yet enemies. Nor can we ignore His all encompassing judgements..of binding up all men in sin/appointed
to die once..and all men to recieve the free gift of mercy grace/eternal life. Let your 'yeah' mean 'yeah' and your 'nay' mean 'nay'
.....anything else is from the evil/wicked one. Indeed, sin condemned in all flesh/corruptible image and can not inherit the kingdom
is the 'NAY" of His judgements. The free gift of eternal life..that all men be raised up in Christ's image..is the 'YEAH"
He in His wisdom has judged thus...and who am I to put anything to His words/judgements and commands....
the Father knows how to deal with His children...what discipline/correction and forming must take place for each one......
we shall all be the work of His hands...as He makes over all of His sons and daughters in the image of His only begotton.
....there is a place prepared in the body of Christ for every one....that all may be in Him and He may be in all.
a word to all at the right time....prepare to meet YOUR GOD...we will all have to stand before Him...He knows were coming
....He will recieve we prodigals home with love[all who died in Adam are prodigal's] He will be silent in His love...there will be
no accuser in Heaven...He will remember our sins no more............HIS MERCY ENDURES FOREVER...there will just be the Father's
joy...that my son which was dead..is alive!!!!!
:thumbsup: amen
:iagree: Sheila, well said!
Quote from: sheila on August 20, 2015, 05:30:10 PM
considering these things...I believe we miss the mark if we fail to consider the heart of the Father. Many stripes or few pertaining
to those who knew..and the ignorant. Consider sodom and gomorahs judgement...destruction in one day...and the desolation
of Jerusalem 5 month seige of starvation...70 years captivity in Babylon etc... 5 months praying for death versus death in one hour.
His wrath endures but for a moment.........His mercies forever....can't neglect the scriptures that testify to His heart.
.....the dead prodigal's coming home....can't neglect the testimony of the Father's heart there either. nor the fact that He gave
His son..while we were yet enemies. Nor can we ignore His all encompassing judgements..of binding up all men in sin/appointed
to die once..and all men to recieve the free gift of mercy grace/eternal life. Let your 'yeah' mean 'yeah' and your 'nay' mean 'nay'
.....anything else is from the evil/wicked one. Indeed, sin condemned in all flesh/corruptible image and can not inherit the kingdom
is the 'NAY" of His judgements. The free gift of eternal life..that all men be raised up in Christ's image..is the 'YEAH"
He in His wisdom has judged thus...and who am I to put anything to His words/judgements and commands....
the Father knows how to deal with His children...what discipline/correction and forming must take place for each one......
we shall all be the work of His hands...as He makes over all of His sons and daughters in the image of His only begotton.
....there is a place prepared in the body of Christ for every one....that all may be in Him and He may be in all.
a word to all at the right time....prepare to meet YOUR GOD...we will all have to stand before Him...He knows were coming
....He will recieve we prodigals home with love[all who died in Adam are prodigal's] He will be silent in His love...there will be
no accuser in Heaven...He will remember our sins no more............HIS MERCY ENDURES FOREVER...there will just be the Father's
joy...that my son which was dead..is alive!!!!!
wow - much food for thought. And manna it is! Thank you.
I would be category 1 james, with the exception of the fact that I think the fire is the light and love of God piercing the veils of rebellion and lies in man, consuming hate and self lordship, burning into the heart and mind His wisdom and His love until the heart is broken and the veil removed and His glory and love flows in as the renewed vessel rejoices- bowing to His Lordship and confessing His glory.
There will be no accuser in heaven, but there will be a recckoning at the great white throne. For some that reckoning will mean glory and honor, for some a few stripes. For some that reckoning will mean many stripes.
There will be many who will say to Him on that day, "Lord, Lord....." he will say to them depart from me into the fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
The courts were sat and the books were opened........
Their consciences either accusing or excusing them on the day when God judges the secrets of men's hearts by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.
If your right eye causes you to offend pluck it out for it would be better to enter heaven maimed than to enter the gehenna of fire.
All the things we must avoid in the afterlife, must be voided in this life ;o)
For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be abolished is death. 27 For He has put all things in subjection under His feet. But when He says, "All things are put in subjection," it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him. 28 When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.
Some of those adversaries will be subjected in the lake of fire! :eek:
See to it that you do not refuse Him who is speaking. For if those did not escape when they refused him who warned them on earth, much less will we escape who turn away from Him who warns from heaven. 26 And His voice shook the earth then, but now He has promised, saying, "Yet once more I will shake not only the earth, but also the heaven." 27 This expression, "Yet once more," denotes the removing of those things which can be shaken, as of created things, so that those things which cannot be shaken may remain. 28 Therefore, since we receive a kingdom which cannot be shaken, let us show gratitude, by which we may offer to God an acceptable service with reverence and awe; 29 for our God is a consuming fire.
On the day that every person dies, their "Yet once more" comes upon them. Every thing that can be shaken will be shaken, until only that which cannot be shaklen remains. Every bit of wood, hay and stubble will be consumed, in the Day of His appearing, before the brightness of His presence and radiance of His glory. Every secret will be brought to light and for the wicked, that which they refused to acknowledge in life will pierce them with unapproachable light and they will, in their turn, before the overwhelming power of His love and the fire of His truth, bow the knee and confess His Lordship.
Accorrding to Jesus, and John, and Paul- it will not be pretty. It will not be easy. It IS to be avoided.
Better to confess Today, "Father forgive me". Better to serve and obey. Better to abiide in Him because for those who do there will be nothing to avoid in the afterlife, only entering the joy of their Lord.
"Well done, Good and faithful servant". :o)
I fall most into the 1a category..
Quote from: jabcat on August 20, 2015, 07:08:13 AM
1) instant salvation in next life for some as they quickly recognize the Savior, corrective punishment for varying lengths of duration for others. 1a) some believe this is guilt and remorse of the mind, a sort of spiritual torment
Quote from: jabcat on August 20, 2015, 07:08:13 AM
why do you think the seriousness, and what to avoid?
So I do think the 2nd resurrection is (far) inferior to the first and far less joyful.. though, imo, it does catch up.. and as you wrote different degrees of remorse and repentance, and even for some, torment in, and
in glaring comparison to, God's bright light of holiness and purity.
And in here, to me fits "the queen of the south will rise up in (the) judgment against this generation for a greater than Solomon is here.." and "..it will be better for Sodom and Gomorrah in the judgment than for you.." (pharisees of? cities which rejected Him..)
and also "there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth" and "all the ends of the earth will turn to the LORD, and all families of the nations will worship before Him.."
The "danger" to me is an illustration. That God endowed thinking ability (which includes limited, very limited ability to make choices) but God is both Life and Perfection, thus imperfect (us/choices which disagree with His choices/imperfection) is the opposite of life, hence the rescue needed.. from self and from "death' which to me, is nonlife.
So the "danger" to me is a living illustration He is making, that non-life could be a very real possibility and potential, and indeed w/o God's Great Plan of Salvation (through Jesus and His crucifixion, etc) we aLL would perish. (Therefor, in the 'end' all will fully understand that to wander from God in thought, word or deed, is to become imperfect, the opposite of life, hence is to fade...
cease to be.. The whole ultimate reality hinging upon the one thing - (close) relationship with our Father and Creator...
:2c: :smile: great post and idea for discussion!! :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
Quote from: anti_nietzsche on August 20, 2015, 09:04:05 AM
I must add something though. Once in my life I did something odd, I had a relative that was dying of cancer. There was some confusion and I thought I may have contributed to her early death. This was later disproven and I did nothing bad. But for some minutes I had the terrible fear that I may have caused someone's death. Things became so dark for me. I did not know anymore if Jesus Christ could forgive me. It turned out he could, easily, but after all the truth was that I hadn't done something wrong. That's why I think sin matters. If you have really killed someone, you can likely not believe in God's mercy anymore. This is very serious. We believe God forgives us easily, but it depends on the sin. It's hard to feel forgiven sometimes.
This, anti_nietzsche, perfectly communicates (to me) the
horror that is sin (imo, imperfection,as opposed to His Perfection).. and the horror is of different degrees.. in my own heart, there are differing degrees of horror.. from feeling foolish over some foolish thing I did, etc, to feeling horror over some more terrible thing I may have done.. this makes me ponder what it would be like to awaken to the reality that I had done great evil like a genocide or been an evil despot over many.. And then the horror would be even worse if it was done, not from being thoroughly deceived, but because there was happiness or enjoyment in doing it.. in harming others that is.. oh man.
:cloud9: @ Jab.....I couldn't agree more with your point of minimizing, which is why I have told my view repeatedly. I found it interesting that I agreed with a belief of the Jews that was posted this week, about creating the things we are judged by, considering I heard this 29 years ago from a non-Jewish source who said the Lord told her that was where the demon that attacked her had come from (she created it out of the hate and murder of her own heart), which was a shock to both of us. And I have seen it played out for real. We ARE caused to eat of the fruit of our own lips, and with our OWN wickedness are we reproved, and all of it comes out of the heart of man where Jesus said it did.
It goes back to the two seeds, in the beginning (Adam's and Satan's, Abel and Cain), which has multiplied to be the wheat and the tares by Matt. 13. Note in Matt. 13 it says the world He is talking about is the field where the good seed (Christ) is planted, and that the removal of the tares and catching up of the wheat, is the end of this world (of iniquity), that field that we all are.
The "hell" that exists is in our own hearts, which is why without Him cleansing the inside of the cup, He told them they would die in their sins. In, because we, and Christ within us, are surrounded by the principalities called sin. Antichrist literally means against Christ, and it's not only in the thought of opposition but POSITION, ie. covering the light as a basket covers a candle.
A Dr. Eby wrote a book about his near-death experience. In actuality he really did die. He described being in a cave, surrounded by beings speaking to him and mocking him. Though he didn't realize it, the cave was his own stony heart that he (the spark of who he is) descended into, and what awaited him was his own creations. Whatever our soul does not overcome thru the blood of the Lamb in life, we see face to face in death. Thank God He is merciful, and this chastening does not last forever.
Eve was Adam's stony heart (bones are made of minerals = stones), and God took her out of him because He wanted him to see what was in his heart, face to face. The same principle was shown when He took the Israelites out of Egypt into the wilderness to show them what was in their hearts (Deut. 7).
We were made in His image, both male and female in one, spirit and soul, male and female made He THEM. Being made in His image with both means we are capable of creating new life, only without Him operating thru us, what we create is really the things of death, because only wickedness comes out of the heart of man continually, by itself.
When Satan came on the scene, he raped Eve (rape is also the act of imposing your will on another) and spiritually murdered her husband. He was a murderer from the beginning. He displayed this again with David and Bathsheba. And tried it on Jesus thru Peter when Jesus was speaking about the manner in which He should die (be it far from you, Lord), hoping to impose his will on Jesus, so that His covering would be absent from disobedience, and he could then kill Him. My :2c: Blessings....
yes..it is the LORD LORD CLASS that needs the light of His love to pierce the veil the most...those that are more accountable...those
that claim they have the light in them. Never-the-less...when their own hearts condemn them...HE IS GREATER THAN THEIR HEARTS.
the same/in agreement/hypocritical/religious spirits..that are inreality of the synogogue of satan..that constantly accuse and persecute
the children of the promised seed. Not quenching their spiritual thirst with waters of life..nor covering their nakedness with Christ's
redemptive blood/garment of salvation. Not freeing their spirit from the bonds of corruption[body of death]not visiting the sick with
a word of healing...but instead cast them out with the same judgement as demons....and reckon them with the cursed...these
ARE THE ONES WHO RECIEVE HEAVIER JUDGEMENT...BECAUSE AS THEY JUDGED MEN...SO SHALL THEY BE JUDGED!
this babylon religion that set herself up as queen of heaven..all the bloodguilt comes on her!!
Judge not,lest ye be judged. Keep this command /word
Jesus said ;I JUDGE NO MAN" Jesus said ;THE FATHER JUDGES NO MAN" Jesus said' THINK NOT THAT I WILL ACCUSE YOU IF YE
BELIEVE ME NOT...Ye judge after the flesh[what did we not know sin in flesh condemned in all men] John 8;15
If ye keep not His command to judge not..lest ye be judged..you will find out. If you keep preaching condemnation and accusation
against all men bought/redeemed by Christ's blood...where is your faith? Because you do not behold it in your flesh with your own eyes
you set it at naught? TODAY IF YE HEAR HIS VOICE......doubt not!
the offspring of viper spirit in the pharisees and sadducees judged after the appearance of the flesh...persecuted the children
of the promise..cast them out as the cursed of God.[ye demon possessed].along with He that bought them......pursued and
accused and persecuted.And their dead bodies certainly were thrown into gehenna right outside Jerusalem
Keep His commandments..judge not..bless and curse not..freely forgive as ye are forgiven..love your fellow man as yourself..
Love the Father with your whole HEART MIND STRENGTH.. LOVE THE LORD WHO BOUGHT YOU
.for you will stand before Him and give an account......
all adversaries of LIFE IN CHRIST FOR ALL MEN WILL BE ANNHILATED...accusors/liars into lof with the demons.....O'Death
I shall be thy plagues!!!
Thank God Jesus come in flesh and the appearance of sin..and voided the documents against us...nailing them to the stake.....
and recieved the commandment unto life. Crushed the mind of the serpent with it's constant accusing...know ye not that
when the accusor is thrown out of heaven..he pursues/persecutes the woman who has the seed of promise. Know ye not that
all dead in Adam are redeemed and now heirs of the promise..to be raised up in Christ? Know ye not that He said He will not
always find fault?
Quote from: HungerForTruth on August 20, 2015, 03:04:32 PM
So - Who needs that? Believe and pursue holiness - in a loving non-judgemental way. Which totally means reliance on the Spirit - for the flesh profits nothing and is incapable of pursuing holiness without becoming judgemental.
Amen!
thumbsup: :thumbsup:
"
for the flesh profits nothing and is incapable of pursuing holiness without becoming judgemental." :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
Quote from: sheila on August 20, 2015, 05:30:10 PM
the Father knows how to deal with His children...what discipline/correction and forming must take place for each one......
we shall all be the work of His hands...as He makes over all of His sons and daughters in the image of His only begotton.
....there is a place prepared in the body of Christ for every one....that all may be in Him and He may be in all.
a word to all at the right time....prepare to meet YOUR GOD...we will all have to stand before Him...He knows were coming
....He will recieve we prodigals home with love[all who died in Adam are prodigal's] He will be silent in His love...there will be
no accuser in Heaven...He will remember our sins no more............HIS MERCY ENDURES FOREVER...there will just be the Father's
joy...that my son which was dead..is alive!!!!!
:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :dsunny:
Quote from: eaglesway on August 20, 2015, 06:00:04 PM
Some of those adversaries will be subjected in the lake of fire! :eek:
I think that's possible.. Great verses, EW..
Quote from: eaglesway on August 20, 2015, 06:00:04 PM
Yet once more I will shake not only the earth, but also the heaven." 27 This expression, "Yet once more," denotes the removing of those things which can be shaken, as of created things, so that those things which cannot be shaken may remain. 28 Therefore, since we receive a kingdom which cannot be shaken, let us show gratitude, by which we may offer to God an acceptable service with reverence and awe; 29 for our God is a consuming fire.
...the judging of the world and separating of the sheep and goats at His return.. tho I imagine we all will have some amount of self correction in His marvelous light (the shaking of the within) ..and also some believers spared, others spared as by fire, but their works burned up..
When your Lord cometh.. few stripes/many stripes..
And then "when the thousand years are over" Rev 20:7... the Great White Throne judgment.. "But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished.. And I saw a great white throne, and Him who is sitting upon it.. and I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and scrolls were opened, and another scroll was opened.." 20:5,11,12
...the shaking loose of those things which can be shaken.. And I'm thinking this also occurs now and during this life, to believers.. some of us, per human nature, perhaps will be found more stubborn than others.. And so too I'm thinking with the 2nd resurrection and at the Great White Throne. Some more stubborn than others.. to the point of some, I would imagine, such habitual hardening of the heart against God so severe, they cannot so easily repent (the 'unforgivable' sin Jesus warned about).. To LOF with them is my musing.. Those still not bending the knee/believing/loving God at the close of the GWT judgment -> LOF (aionian) :2c: :2c: :smile:
Bex,enjoying your posts...they are speaking to me.... widen out our hearts..widen out our affections. Of Jerusalem it is said.....
widen out your tent stakes..and it will yet be said to her....make room for us to dwell......so many/numerous her children.
last week my eyes looked on a land that strertched wider and farther than my eyes could see...I was given a glimpse of paradise and
that which is eternal...people of all generations/cultures ethnicities....all restored...beyond compare in beauty....brown islanders
with braided hair..with palm trees singing worshipful praise in reggae style!...I saw all people who ever lived or will live..happy restored
singing and praising Him in song...dwelling in such a beautific land.
we ALL have a place prepared for us there.........
Try me out in this manner...and see if I do not open the floodgates of heaven and pour out such a blessing until there is no more want.
:cloud9: Amen, awesome..... joy cometh in the morning.....we just got to get thru the dark night of the soul..... :iagree:
Quote from: sheila on August 20, 2015, 07:20:21 PM
this babylon religion that set herself up as queen of heaven..all the bloodguilt comes on her!!
amen, all blood and all slain upon earth from the beginning of the world.. Her forehead "babylon the great" all babble.. all untruth.. All of man's empire(s).. cannot endure/stand fast.. can only "be shaken"..
Quote from: sheila on August 20, 2015, 07:20:21 PM
all adversaries of LIFE IN CHRIST FOR ALL MEN WILL BE ANNHILATED...accusors/liars into lof with the demons.....O'Death
I shall be thy plagues!!!
:thumbsup: "God is Love" ..He shall be "all in all"... :dsunny: "the good news of the Kingdom.." and "
His kingdom will never end.."
Quote from: sheila on August 20, 2015, 07:20:21 PM
Try me out in this manner...and see if I do not open the floodgates of heaven and pour out such a blessing until there is no more want.
:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :dsunny: :HeartThrob:
just 'dropped in" the basket over the light...and wickedness the woman placed in a basket with a lead lid..and transported
to the land of Shinar. she that would snuff out/suffocate the child of light.
:cloud9: Yep. Lines up with the baker and the cupbearer, too. The "basket" on the baker's head, same as nest, for unclean birds/spirits of Jezebel. Blessings....
JOHN 12
47"If anyone hears My sayings and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world.
48"He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him;
the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day.
49"For I did not speak on My own initiative, but the Father Himself who sent Me has given Me a commandment as to what to say and what to speak.
The spoken Word is our judge ...
Luke 9 34While he was saying this, a cloud formed and began to overshadow them; and they were afraid as they entered the cloud.
35Then a voice came out of the cloud, saying, "This is My Son, My Chosen One; listen to Him!" 36And when the voice had spoken, Jesus was found alone.
And they kept silent, and reported to no one in those days any of the things which they had seen.
Hebrews 12
22 No, you have come to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to countless thousands of angels in a joyful gathering. 23 You have come to the assembly of God's firstborn children, whose names are written in heaven.
You have come to God himself, who is the judge over all things. You have come to the spirits of the righteous ones in heaven who have now been made perfect. 24 You have come to Jesus, the one who mediates the new covenant between God and people, and to the sprinkled blood, which speaks of forgiveness instead of crying out for vengeance like the blood of Abel.
25 Be careful that you do not refuse to listen to the One who is speaking. For if the people of Israel did not escape when they refused to listen to Moses, the earthly messenger, we will certainly not escape if we reject the One who speaks to us from heaven!
26 When God spoke from Mount Sinai his voice shook the earth, but now he makes another promise: "Once again I will shake not only the earth but the heavens also." 27 This means that all of creation will be shaken and removed, so that only unshakable things will remain.
28 Since we are receiving a Kingdom that is unshakable, let us be thankful and please God by worshiping him with holy fear and awe. 29 For our God is a devouring fire.
the bread of LIFE IS from heaven , not the day old manna :dsunny:
yes! and this too...no-one lights a lamp and places it under a basket. Instead,he places it on a stand..that all may see.
Babylon has become as a cage of unclean birds.
Arise! Shine! Your light has come...gross darkness covers the earth..but the GLORY OF THE LORD RISES ON YOU!
Mic 7:9 The turbulence of Yahweh I will bear, for I have sinned against Him, till He is contending my contention, and shall execute my judgment. He will bring me forth to the light; I shall see by His righteousness." :Peace2:
We could be more or less in the afterlife.
If the darkness is burned out of us by the Light of God what remains.
The light we have now is eternal.
Who we are in Christ now. Will determine who we are in the afterlife.
Blessed are those who receive correction in this life.
Love is a correcting force.
Imo
each one's work will become obvious, for the day[f] will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire; the fire will test the quality of each one's work. 14 If anyone's work that he has built survives, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone's work is burned up, it will be lost, but he will be saved; yet it will be like an escape through fire.[g]
Quote from: dajomaco on August 20, 2015, 09:52:50 PM
We could be more or less in the afterlife.
If the darkness is burned out of us by the Light of God what remains.
The light we have now is eternal.
Who we are in Christ now. Will determine who we are in the afterlife.
Blessed are those who receive correction in this life.
Love is a correcting force.
Imo
I agree and sometime we say ouch, that hurts. But it is for our good.
Heb_12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
Heb_12:7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
Quote from: dajomaco on August 20, 2015, 09:57:33 PM
each one's work will become obvious, for the day[f] will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire; the fire will test the quality of each one's work. 14 If anyone's work that he has built survives, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone's work is burned up, it will be lost, but he will be saved; yet it will be like an escape through fire.[g]
That's the thing. Not escaping the fire, but escaping the rubble
through the fire. Going to Jabcats point:
1 Thess 5
1But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. 2For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
reading posts and thinking about them..good thoughts, thanks. :thumbsup:
will probably be something I'm thinking about for awhile
The only real peace and safety comes from knowing Jesus was crucified.
The reason he was crucified was for me you.
The more we bring the crucified Christ into this world the better .
I get so easily caught up in other important issues.
Man is like a breath[that Babyon snuffs out/suffocates] his days are like a fleeting shadow. But the Lord lights the candle of every man.
Part your heavens, O'Lord and come down, touch the mountains so that they smoke[Mt Olive]
Send forth lightening and scatter the enemies[Saul/Paul lightening on road] shoot your arrows and rout them.
Reach down your hand from on high,deliver me and rescue me from the mighty waters,from the hands of foreigners
whose mouths are full of lies,whose right hands are deceitful............
.
I will sing a new song to you,O'God................
Then our sons in their youth will be like well nurtured plants...and our daughters like pillars,carved to adorn a palace
OUR BARNS WILL BE FILLED{gather the wheat in the barn] WITH EVERY KIND OF PROVISION
OUR SHEEP WILL INCREASE BY THE THOUSANDS[I am God,ye men are sheep]....BY TENS OF THOUSANDS IN OUR FIELDS
OUR OXEN WILL DRIVE HEAVY LOADS.
There will be no breaching of the walls..no going into captivity, no cry of distress in our streets
BLESSED ARE THE PEOPLE OF WHOM THIS IS TRUE;
BLESSED ARE THE PEOPLE WHOSE GOD IS THE LORD!!!!!!!!!
Then I looked and there before me was the Lamb standing on Mt Zion,and with him 144,000 who had His name and His Father's name
written on their foreheads. And I heard a sound from heaven like the roar of rushing waters and like a loud peal of thunder.
the sound I heard was like harpist playing their harps....AND THEY SANG A NEW SONG BEFORE THE THRONE,AND BEFORE
THE FOUR LIVING CREATURES AND THE ELDERS
THREE ANGELS[messagers/messages] ETERNAL GOSPEL PROCLAIMED TO THOSE WHO LIVE ON EARTH
Fear God and give HIM the glory! BECAUSE THE HOUR OF HIS JUDGEMENT HAS COME. Worship Him who made the heavens,earth
sea and springs!!!
2nd angel FALLEN! FALLEN! IS BABYLON THE GREAT!!! which made all the nations drink the maddening wine of her adulteries
3rd angel...If anyone worships the beast and his image[carnal beastly misunderstanding/Babylon sitting atop it] he too, will
drink the wine of God's fury. He will be tormented with burning sulpher in the presence of the holy angels and the Lamb[because
babylon sits atop this beast as wicked dross/man without understanding is like the beast/confusion]. and burning coals will be heaped
upon your head as Babylon/who sits atop the beast is burned
This calls for patient endurance on the part of the saints who obey God's commandments and remain faithful to Jesus.
BLESSED ARE THE DEAD WHO DIE IN THE LORD FROM NOW ON!!!![did you catch that? dead who die?]
Yes! They will rest from their labour for their deeds will follow them....[some men's works follow them from judgement]
Harvest of the Earth....Jesus coming on the clouds...son of Man with a crown and a sharp sickle
earth's vine pressed...Babylons wine vine crushed under God's wrath......trampled outside the city........and blood flowed
Now My soul is troubled. What should I say—Father, save Me from this hour? But that is why I came to this hour. 28 Father, glorify Your name!"[h]
Then a voice came from heaven: "I have glorified it, and I will glorify it again!"
29 The crowd standing there heard it and said it was thunder. Others said that an angel had spoken to Him.
30 Jesus responded, "This voice came, not for Me, but for you. 31 Now is the judgment of this world. Now the ruler of this world will be cast out. 32 As for Me, if I am lifted up from the earth I will draw all people to Myself." 33 He said this to signify what kind of death He was about to die.
Quote from: dajomaco on August 20, 2015, 10:16:55 PM
The only real peace and safety comes from knowing Jesus was crucified.
The reason he was crucified was for me you.
The more we bring the crucified Christ into this world the better .
I get so easily caught up in other important issues.
I don't disagree that there is peace and safety in knowing that. But I'd also there's also peace and safety in being healed of our sins. The prodigal son fled to his father away from death and destruction and was received. But he needed time to remember his father first.
Yes, this is why Jesus says that we must take up our cross and follow him. The flesh is to be crucified. "And if you, by the Spirit mortify the deeds of the flesh, you shall live." The death that he died is within you.
We have the blessed opportunity to affect our afterlife
and we could affect the afterlife of our neighbour God willing
Therefore, since we also have such a large cloud of witnesses surrounding us, let us lay aside every weight and the sin that so easily ensnares us. Let us run with endurance the race that lies before us, 2 keeping our eyes on Jesus,[a] the source and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that lay before Him[c] endured a cross and despised the shame and has sat down at the right hand of God's throne.
The ET/ED theology is mainly based on the assumption that salvation depends on our free will, which is not completely the case. There is an appointed time for salvation of everyone. For a vast majority, now is not that time.
"He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given" (Matthew 13:11).
"For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly" (Romans 5:6).
"That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and to all riches of the full assurance of the understanding, to the full knowledge of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ; in Whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge" (Colossians 2:2-3).
Romans 9:17-21 MKJV
(17) For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "Even for this same purpose I have raised you up, that I might show My power in you, and that My name might be declared throughout all the earth."
(18) Therefore He has mercy on whom He will have mercy, and whom He will, He hardens.
(19) You will then say to me, Why does He yet find fault? For who has resisted His will?
(20) No, but, O man, who are you who replies against God? Shall the thing formed say to Him Who formed it, Why have you made me this way?
(21) Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel to honor and another to dishonor?
"A man can receive nothing, except it be given to him from heaven" (John 3:27)
Below are a few links which discuss the topic of God's sovereignty:
http://www.thepathoftruth.com/falsehood-exposed/diabolical-doctrines/god-is-trying-to-save-the-whole-world-now.htm
http://www.thepathoftruth.com/teachings/the-sign-book-of-jonah-book-of-god.htm
http://www.thepathoftruth.com/falsehood-exposed/free-will/choosing-free-will.htm
http://www.thepathoftruth.com/falsehood-exposed/free-will/whose-will-is-free.htm
thanks SFTT for links to the web site This web site is very interesting. I have looked at it a few times and I like it. It has a OT aspect. I looked at one link concerning the keeping of the true Sabbath which God gave to ancient Israel and yet ordained it from the beginning of creation. remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy. I still view this is something that NT believers need to concider. I do not mean to keep it as a "church" but to keep it as a special day of meditation and personal study of His Word. :Peace2:
TY that link on the sign of Jonah made me see some things I had never considered!
In another thread, it was stated "we" have no fear in facing God in the next life. That there'll be a review, and then shame and sadness. Also, that "we" would be ministered to by angels.
A few points I'd make in reference to this thread. The writer was talking from the standpoint of a believer. I'd certainly think that would change the dynamics of what happens, based on the blood of Jesus having been personally applied in a believer's life. One of the main points in this thread is, "standing before God unprepared", even in total unbelief, rebellion, hate toward God, and how we as UR believers may sometimes minimize/short-sell what that might be like and reasons to avoid it. (even for a believer, why would we want to stand before God and do a review, and have to stand in shame and regret for some of our actions, attitudes, beliefs, etc.?) Further thoughts?
Are you essentially asking whether or not the UR message should incorporate a warning to unbelievers that they could have some bad afterlife experiences if they don't believe in Jesus today?
I guess so...not putting on our sternest face and black wool suits and scream "you're gonna be bashed", but at least not always white-washing into a "everything's coming up roses" message. Again, a lot of this is from my own thoughts as i deal with people, family, etc...I've been wondering if it's a dis-service to make it all peaches and cream. Although I certainly think we should MAJOR on God's love and mercy for sure - just wondering if there's more of a balance, if we go in the ditch on one side of the road too much sometimes.
I woke up this morning thinking of this from J. Preston Eby;
Fire is a great cleanser, purifier, and changer. We all know that a horse must be broken, that is, its will must be broken before it is of any practical use to man. God put that will in the horse, but it must be broken and made to conform to the will of man. Just as surely did God put the will in man, BUT IT MUST BE BROKEN and we will benefit by the very process of breaking. Man may do a lot of crying and wailing, but when he is broken to HIS will, what a wonderful condition it is. God may take man over some rough places, even through the lake of fire and brimstone, but the love of God will break every man to His will. If you think the Kingdom of God is rosewater, or eau-de-cologne, you are mistaken. You cannot war on the devil with that. You cannot war on the carnal minds of men with that. You have to make war on the world, the flesh, and the devil with a sword sharper than any twoedged sword. You have to make war on the carnal mind with fire, divine fire that must burn up every inherent altar of Baal, and lick up the very dust around.
Make no mistake! OUR GOD is a consuming fire! He is man's "horse breaker" and He will break you, precious friend of mine, and bring you to the foot of the cross of Jesus no matter how hot He has to build the fire around you! Even if long ages of fiery judgment and tormenting darkness fall upon you, they will last no longer than till the Great Fire of God has melted all arrogance into humility, and all that is self has died in the bloody sweat and all-saving cross of the Christ, which will never give up its redeeming power till sin and sinners have no more a name among the creatures of God.
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/TheLakeOfFire-Eby.html
Good words jabcat.
Jabcat.. repent and give God the glory is an evangel of the gospel...draw near to God and He will draw near to you......
all this has a place in the Gospel.Holy spirit give me a word of knowledge to my daughter..of an impending stern correction
coming her way..unless she clean up her act. I told her..it went in one ear and out the other..and 3 weeks later come upon her.
when you love people..you warn them and give opportunity to turn from it.
Jesus warned also...........
the thing is...that is not all of the gospel message. and many judas-priest hirelings have cursed those whom God has blessed...
confused men have twisted the admonishments/twisted a version of God....those whom I love I rebuke
absolutely sheila..the whole thing is slippery to me, in that I believe a pure and honest heart is required - and MOST OF ALL - truly trusting in the Lord - otherwise I think it's SO easy to mess it up one way or the other. To be too lax, or too stern, get into condemning, bad attitudes, etc. Look to and trust the Lord. He has to do it through us or we'll mess it up. :2c:
I think it's an interesting question, and I think it might help to look at how the gospel message was presented to unbelievers by the Apostles. Jesus presented it, but he did so according to things which were near-future, and nobody knew what he was talking about because he was intentionally mysterious. He also said, "what I tell you in the dark, speak in the daylight. What I whisper in your ear, shout from the rooftops."
Maybe it would help to gather Gospel presentations directly to unbelievers from the Bible to see how it was done. An example could be found in Acts 2. Peter begins by explaining how the prophets predicted the outpouring on the Spirit and how anyone who calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. He then goes on to describe how Jesus was crucified but how God made him Lord and Messiah.
Acts 2
36 "Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Messiah."
37 When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, "Brothers, what shall we do?"
38 Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call."
40 With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, "Save yourselves from this corrupt generation." 41 Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day.
I notice a couple things with this passage. One is that Peter warned and pleaded with them, but about what? "Save yourselves from this corrupt generation." If he was concerned about incorporating "hell" (as Orthodoxy believes), or even with some negative afterlife experience, into his Gospel presentation, he doesn't seem to indicate that here, at least not to me. It's not to say he didn't believe in one, only that it doesn't seem to be his primary concern in how he presents the gospel. He seems to be most concerned about salvation (healing) from the corruption of that very generation, from sin and its self-damaging consequences as explained in Romans 1. And those who accepted that message were baptized, because they were "cut to the heart."
What I find interesting is that 3,000 people were added that day, with no afterlife message from Peter (at least not one I can see.) However, that doesn't mean that such warnings about the afterlife should NOT be incorporated, as the Apostles did including warnings to believers about it, such as with 2 Peter 2, 1 Thess 5, 1 Corinthians 3, for example.
But, at least in the above case, Peter's evangelizing seemed pretty successful without it. Having said that, I don't think that there is ONE way to do it, such as with the formulaic "Sinner's Prayer" which has become the standard today. Acts 2 says that "with many other words," which I take to mean that there is no single way to do it for everyone. Peter used the words he felt inspired to use.
So again, to summarize, I don't think people should feel restricted from mentioning the afterlife, but I also don't think it MUST be included or that something is missing without it.
well, that's one really good incident, and i agree, looking at how the apostles evangelized would probably be a really good venture. not all they said of course was recorded, but there should be good examples there. also, adding in anything Jesus said about afterlife, and things Paul may have said; sounds like a pretty big study, but should yield some good results. :thumbsup:
I THINK it would bring us back to that place again,, "correct balance" (whatever that is :mblush:). I believe we do need understanding, but we also need TRUST and have Him actively working in us, and He can use us in our weaknesses/inefficiencies.
:thumbsup: Seth..good points. Rend your heart[circumcized heart] and not your garments[repent in dust and ashes/thinking
flesh turned over to satan for it's destruction..that the spirit be saved on the day of the Lord[the flesh returning to the dust
and the spirit returning to God.]
But we know if the RIGHTEOUS ONE strike me..it is even a blessing..........God takes such ones as these home early..He cuts
their time really short down here.
personally,I'd love an in depth reveiw..of this ..."Fear not man..who after killing the body can do nothing further.But fear God
who after the death of the flesh can cast into Gehenna." I'd like to see the words in Hebrew etc too..on it.
I will share with you what I was shown about it.
:thumbsup:
38 Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call."
The gift of the Holy Spirit .
There is nothing more beautiful than sharing the message of repentance to some one and they receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
We have the ability to share this gift with strangers.
Quote from: sheila on August 21, 2015, 08:33:43 PM
personally,I'd love an in depth reveiw..of this ..."Fear not man..who after killing the body can do nothing further.But fear God
who after the death of the flesh can cast into Gehenna." I'd like to see the words in Hebrew etc too..on it.
I will share with you what I was shown about it.
It's also noteworthy to me that he was addressing his disciples when he said it, beginning with "These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions"
daj; love that post :HeartThrob:
Quote from: jabcat on August 21, 2015, 08:19:01 PM
well, that's one really good incident, and i agree, looking at how the apostles evangelized would probably be a really good venture. not all they said of course was recorded, but there should be good examples there. also, adding in anything Jesus said about afterlife, and things Paul may have said; sounds like a pretty big study, but should yield some good results. :thumbsup:
I THINK it would bring us back to that place again,, "correct balance" (whatever that is :mblush:). I believe we do need understanding, but we also need TRUST and have Him actively working in us, and He can use us in our weaknesses/inefficiencies.
I think the correct balance has to do with the leading of the Holy Spirit .
We can be led to say something to
cut to a persons heart.
Said through the Spirit an act of Love .
Said through the cardinal mind something that just comes across as mean.
:thumbsup: Seth
I think the afterlife was not a big part of the Gospel Message, since there were several christians in the Corinthian church that said there was no afterlife at all. Well, they said there was not resurrection of the dead (1 Cor 15) I assume that when the apostles would have preached heaven & hell they would not have come up with such thoughts?
Seth Said
Peter used the words he felt inspired to use.
Amen the most useful words are inspired words.
To pray for the inspiration of the Holy Spirit for words expressed in LOVE.
Thank you for sharing.
the Sadducees that put faith in Christ had to overcome to pre-concieved disbelief in resuurection of the dead. Paul addressed it...
and Peter said even then they twisted and mis-construed what he said. a faction in the congregation.
Continuing the study:
I found another example which does incorporate the "judgment to come:"
Acts 24
24 But some days later Felix arrived with Drusilla, his wife who was a Jewess, and sent for Paul and heard him speak about faith in Christ Jesus. 25 But as he was discussing righteousness, self-control and the judgment to come, Felix became frightened and said, "Go away for the present, and when I find time I will summon you." 26 At the same time too, he was hoping that money would be given him by Paul; therefore he also used to send for him quite often and converse with him. 27 But after two years had passed, Felix was succeeded by Porcius Festus, and wishing to do the Jews a favor, Felix left Paul imprisoned.
So, there you go, "righteousness, self control and the judgment to come." I think what this study shows is that, again, there doesn't seem to be a single correct way to do it, and results can vary of course, since all is of God.
Here is another one and this is from Peter again:
Acts 10
34 Then Peter began to speak: "I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism 35 but accepts from every nation the one who fears him and does what is right. 36 You know the message God sent to the people of Israel, announcing the good news of peace through Jesus Christ, who is Lord of all. 37 You know what has happened throughout the province of Judea, beginning in Galilee after the baptism that John preached— 38 how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and power, and how he went around doing good and healing all who were under the power of the devil, because God was with him.
39 "We are witnesses of everything he did in the country of the Jews and in Jerusalem. They killed him by hanging him on a cross, 40 but God raised him from the dead on the third day and caused him to be seen. 41 He was not seen by all the people, but by witnesses whom God had already chosen—by us who ate and drank with him after he rose from the dead. 42 He commanded us to preach to the people and to testify that he is the one whom God appointed as judge of the living and the dead. 43 All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name."
44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. 45 The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on Gentiles. 46 For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God.
I think the common thread between these passages, regardless of the end-result is the idea of "cutting to the heart." Clearly, God being the judge of the living and the dead, and the "judgment that is coming" factored into these gospel presentations. What those references MEAN is debatable but I do believe they are referring to judgment both now, and to come.
So, looking at all three passages so far, it seems to me that the common factor between them is the "cutting to the heart." I think a well-prepared heart that is already conscious of the need for salvation and is weighted down by the affairs of life could hear the Acts 2 sermon and be immediately cut to the heart. A king, or a centurion type, maybe needs to hear more about the strength of God as the final judge and the true authority in earth to cut to theirs? :dontknow:
There are clearly mixed results also, since Felix wasn't converted but the centurion was, so there are no guarantees. It's also worth noting that they didn't have the Internet at that time, so that's probably why there didn't seem to be a standardization of the message, such as with the Nicean creed etc. I think as reading became more common, people sought to bring everything under a standard presentation, but I think the Gospel message should be individualized in terms of presentation. Initially it was meant to be heard, literally with ears, and they spoke as inspired by the Spirit. Just some observations.
There is so much a person gains from receiving the gospel message.
There is so much a person loses for rejecting the message.
I believe there are a lot of people who wonder about the afterlife.
So many reject the Christian afterlife because of the false notion of ET.
The fact that they will suffer lose (for rejecting Jesus)
but still be saved to an eternal relationship with him is hard to explain.
That is why the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in the here and now is so important.
Quote from: Seth on August 21, 2015, 09:14:34 PM
Continuing the study:
I found another example which does incorporate the "judgment to come:"
Acts 24
24 But some days later Felix arrived with Drusilla, his wife who was a Jewess, and sent for Paul and heard him speak about faith in Christ Jesus. 25 But as he was discussing righteousness, self-control and the judgment to come, Felix became frightened and said, "Go away for the present, and when I find time I will summon you." 26 At the same time too, he was hoping that money would be given him by Paul; therefore he also used to send for him quite often and converse with him. 27 But after two years had passed, Felix was succeeded by Porcius Festus, and wishing to do the Jews a favor, Felix left Paul imprisoned.
So, there you go, "righteousness, self control and the judgment to come." I think what this study shows is that, again, there doesn't seem to be a single correct way to do it, and results can vary of course, since all is of God.
Here is another one and this is from Peter again:
Acts 10
34 Then Peter began to speak: "I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism 35 but accepts from every nation the one who fears him and does what is right. 36 You know the message God sent to the people of Israel, announcing the good news of peace through Jesus Christ, who is Lord of all. 37 You know what has happened throughout the province of Judea, beginning in Galilee after the baptism that John preached— 38 how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and power, and how he went around doing good and healing all who were under the power of the devil, because God was with him.
39 "We are witnesses of everything he did in the country of the Jews and in Jerusalem. They killed him by hanging him on a cross, 40 but God raised him from the dead on the third day and caused him to be seen. 41 He was not seen by all the people, but by witnesses whom God had already chosen—by us who ate and drank with him after he rose from the dead. 42 He commanded us to preach to the people and to testify that he is the one whom God appointed as judge of the living and the dead. 43 All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name."
44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. 45 The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on Gentiles. 46 For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God.
I think the common thread between these passages, regardless of the end-result is the idea of "cutting to the heart." Clearly, God being the judge of the living and the dead, and the "judgment that is coming" factored into these gospel presentations. What those references MEAN is debatable but I do believe they are referring to judgment both now, and to come.
So, looking at all three passages so far, it seems to me that the common factor between them is the "cutting to the heart." I think a well-prepared heart that is already conscious of the need for salvation and is weighted down by the affairs of life could hear the Acts 2 sermon and be immediately cut to the heart. A king, or a centurion type, maybe needs to hear more about the strength of God as the final judge and the true authority in earth to cut to theirs? :dontknow:
There are clearly mixed results also, since Felix wasn't converted but the centurion was, so there are no guarantees. It's also worth noting that they didn't have the Internet at that time, so that's probably why there didn't seem to be a standardization of the message, such as with the Nicean creed etc. I think as reading became more common, people sought to bring everything under a standard presentation, but I think the Gospel message should be individualized in terms of presentation. Initially it was meant to be heard, literally with ears, and they spoke as inspired by the Spirit. Just some observations.
:friendstu: cutting to the heart
Quote from: dajomaco on August 21, 2015, 09:15:30 PM
There is so much a person gains from receiving the gospel message.
There is so much a person loses for rejecting the message.
I believe there are a lot of people who wonder about the afterlife.
So many reject the Christian afterlife because of the false notion of ET.
The fact that they will suffer lose (for rejecting Jesus)
but still be saved to an eternal relationship with him is hard to explain.
That is why the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in the here and now is so important.
:thumbsup:
I think it's worth noting that Felix wasn't trembling at some notion of demons and fire (ala 23 Minutes in Hell) but at a God who had the power to resurrect the dead and who is the true judge. You can see from Abraham's demeanor when he bargained for Sodom and Gomorrah was of the utmost respect of our awesome God. You could call that fear, but it's not there same as what ET spreads.
Many time people were in the presence of God, who went face down trembling, God's first words are often "don't be afraid."
What I tend to say is that people who fear God probably shouldn't. Those who have no fear of God probably should.
Boy o' boy..you said it,Seth...........the shepherd knows the appearance of His flock....He knows what it takes..the right word..
at the right time.. Us..maybe not so well. Did you ever come in on a dispute between your children...misread the situation.....
and rebuke the wrong party? Children have this sense of justice in them....... they like balance/fairness and true judgement...
in the law enforcement branch .....people have been known to confess to a crime they did not even commit...after being
verbally beat with accusations long enough..
the wrath of man does not work the will of God. God's wrath is different. Proverbs 19;19 a hot-tempered man must pay
the penalty,if you rescue him,you will have to do it again. Moses striking the rock twice instead of speaking to it.
the nations became wrathful...then your wrath came.
Paul definitely warned of judgment. Something I do not understand very well is the statement of Jesus 'I came not to judge but to save ' versus the Lord Jesus being appointed by God to judge. :dontknow:
But maybe that's another subject.
'What I tend to say is that people who fear God probably shouldn't. Those who have no fear of God probably should.'
I love that!
The unhealthy kind of fear always causes me to draw back, away from the Father. That does not work out any fruit of the Spirit. It does not inspire His life and righteousness in mine, but rather stimulates the flesh to try to be better (though I give up very soon, since I'm not so impressed anymore by the abilities of my flesh)
With the kind and merciful You will show Yourself kind and merciful, with an upright man You will show Yourself upright.
With the pure You will show Yourself pure, and with the perverse You will show Yourself contrary.
(Psalm 18)
most likely the reason He said this Hosea 13;7 So will come upon them like a lion,like a leopard I will lurk by the path.
like a bear robbed of her cubs,I will attack them and rip them open. Like a lion I will devour them
Daniel's dream of four beasts. Dan ch 7
Quote from: Abigail on August 21, 2015, 10:20:37 PM
Paul definitely warned of judgment. Something I do not understand very well is the statement of Jesus 'I came not to judge but to save ' versus the Lord Jesus being appointed by God to judge. :dontknow:
But maybe that's another subject.
just getting back into this, too much to respond to all right now..i'll catch up later :)
quick note if it may help somehow..maybe making the distinction between judging and condemning...Jesus said He came to save not condemn, that His Words already had/were doing that. (at least one aspect of that might be that the Law shows us our need for the Savior? :2c:). Anyway, maybe none of that precludes Him from judging. another :2c:
that's a good point,jab.
Quote from: Abigail on August 21, 2015, 10:20:37 PM
Paul definitely warned of judgment. Something I do not understand very well is the statement of Jesus 'I came not to judge but to save ' versus the Lord Jesus being appointed by God to judge. :dontknow:
But maybe that's another subject.
I've wondered about that too. I suspect it's because the Greek language has far less words than English, and maybe less opportunity to use words on the basis of connotation, like "thrifty" vs "miserly."
I think it's important in those situations to look at the context where the word "judge" is being used and find out what
kind of judgement we are talking about. Condemning? Thoughtful? Hypocritical? Damaging? Helpful? Truthful? Judgment can come in all those forms at different times. That could inform us as to which ways he judges and does not judge.
I think jabcat and I are on the same wavelength about that. I posted before reading his response.
Quote from: jabcat on August 21, 2015, 07:37:27 PM
I guess so...not putting on our sternest face and black wool suits and scream "you're gonna be bashed", but at least not always white-washing into a "everything's coming up roses" message. Again, a lot of this is from my own thoughts as i deal with people, family, etc...I've been wondering if it's a dis-service to make it all peaches and cream. Although I certainly think we should MAJOR on God's love and mercy for sure - just wondering if there's more of a balance, if we go in the ditch on one side of the road too much sometimes.
I woke up this morning thinking of this from J. Preston Eby;
Fire is a great cleanser, purifier, and changer. We all know that a horse must be broken, that is, its will must be broken before it is of any practical use to man. God put that will in the horse, but it must be broken and made to conform to the will of man. Just as surely did God put the will in man, BUT IT MUST BE BROKEN and we will benefit by the very process of breaking. Man may do a lot of crying and wailing, but when he is broken to HIS will, what a wonderful condition it is. God may take man over some rough places, even through the lake of fire and brimstone, but the love of God will break every man to His will. If you think the Kingdom of God is rosewater, or eau-de-cologne, you are mistaken. You cannot war on the devil with that. You cannot war on the carnal minds of men with that. You have to make war on the world, the flesh, and the devil with a sword sharper than any twoedged sword. You have to make war on the carnal mind with fire, divine fire that must burn up every inherent altar of Baal, and lick up the very dust around.
Make no mistake! OUR GOD is a consuming fire! He is man's "horse breaker" and He will break you, precious friend of mine, and bring you to the foot of the cross of Jesus no matter how hot He has to build the fire around you! Even if long ages of fiery judgment and tormenting darkness fall upon you, they will last no longer than till the Great Fire of God has melted all arrogance into humility, and all that is self has died in the bloody sweat and all-saving cross of the Christ, which will never give up its redeeming power till sin and sinners have no more a name among the creatures of God.
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/TheLakeOfFire-Eby.html
:cloud9: Amen to that..... :sigh:
Quote from: jabcat on August 22, 2015, 12:24:50 AM
Quote from: Abigail on August 21, 2015, 10:20:37 PM
Paul definitely warned of judgment. Something I do not understand very well is the statement of Jesus 'I came not to judge but to save ' versus the Lord Jesus being appointed by God to judge. :dontknow:
But maybe that's another subject.
just getting back into this, too much to respond to all right now..i'll catch up later :)
quick note if it may help somehow..maybe making the distinction between judging and condemning...Jesus said He came to save not condemn, that His Words already had/were doing that. (at least one aspect of that might be that the Law shows us our need for the Savior? :2c:). Anyway, maybe none of that precludes Him from judging. another :2c:
:cloud9: Try this on for size......Jesus speaking as the SPIRIT gave utterance, said I came to save and not condemn. The Word, without the quickening of the Spirit, does what it's supposed to do, ie. condemn the flesh of man. That's how it's a two-edged sword.
Ever read something and it really hit your flesh and you repented and made changes to your walk, then down the road the Lord opened your eyes to a "less judgmental" more spiritual meaning to it? The Word without the grace of the Spirit revealed condemned the flesh and because you agreed with your adversary while you were in the WAY with it, the sting of death was removed for you. My :2c: Blessings...
A lot of those seemingly conflicting verses are actually different Greek words being rendered the same and the same Greek words being rendered differently. The words judgement and condemnation and tribunal and discern are all very mixed up in the english translations. Krisis, krino, diakrino..... a lot of words that are worth the painstaking study to differentiate them.... and are routinely translated in inconsistent and sometimes incorrect ways.
But some of those verses, especially the ones in John explain themselves thru context.
My personal view is this.
Jesus said, "I did not come to judge the world but to save the world".(Jn 12:47)
He also said, "You judge according to the flesh; I am not judging anyone. If I judge, my judgment is true"(John 8:15, 16)
In the first statement He is speaking of His fundamental purpose, His prime directive- to save the world. Everything else he does, including judging, discerning, correcting....... is subject to this prime directive he has from the Father- and it is because of this that His judgemnet is true.... because he judges to save and He judges only by what he has spoken from the Father and the life He lived.
For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. John 3;17
He does judge, but this is not His prime purpose. His prime purpose is to draw all men unto Himself. To reconcile all by the blood of His cross. To gather all things into one in Christ. This is the directive He received from the Father, and it is God's core desire, plan, and will. He judges by the life He lived, and the words that were only the testimony of what He lived, the bread of life, coming down from heaven.
He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will,(Eph 1)
He must reign until every adversary has been made a footstool for His feet. He will subject many adversaries by judgment..... but that judgment is the two edged sword of His word, which pierces the veil of lies and reveals the heart of iniquity and brings repentence because he has died for us all, the ultimate testimony of God's love, the Light.
We are the first adversaries to be pierced, judged and reconciled by the Sword of the Spirit.
And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds, 22yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach(Col 1)
18"He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God....(John 3)
Once we didnt believe but now we do and as the result we are passed from death unto life.
John 5:30
By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me.
John 12:48 The one who rejects me and does not receive my words has a judge; the word that I have spoken will judge him on the last day.
Because Jesus is faithful and true, his words are manifestations of His life and His character. He is the radiance of the Father's glory and exact representaion of His nature- that's why He is the word of God. That's why he is exalted above all and has the name above every name.... because he alone went all the way for love, and that is the judgment that has come into the world, the Light that overcomes the darkness, the glorious liberty that wil eventually consume all futility and chaos like fire consumes stubble, untill All are one in Christ and God is All in All.
:thumbsup: :thumbsup:...when the Lord comes to judge the earth..they people will learn righteousness.
in reply to #81 yeah...but I don't think it's His will we be 'old nags' stone-bruised / lame, and long in the teeth,either. :laugh:
Quote from: Cardinal on August 22, 2015, 04:21:30 AM
Quote from: jabcat on August 22, 2015, 12:24:50 AM
Quote from: Abigail on August 21, 2015, 10:20:37 PM
Paul definitely warned of judgment. Something I do not understand very well is the statement of Jesus 'I came not to judge but to save ' versus the Lord Jesus being appointed by God to judge. :dontknow:
But maybe that's another subject.
just getting back into this, too much to respond to all right now..i'll catch up later :)
quick note if it may help somehow..maybe making the distinction between judging and condemning...Jesus said He came to save not condemn, that His Words already had/were doing that. (at least one aspect of that might be that the Law shows us our need for the Savior? :2c:). Anyway, maybe none of that precludes Him from judging. another :2c:
:cloud9: Try this on for size......Jesus speaking as the SPIRIT gave utterance, said I came to save and not condemn. The Word, without the quickening of the Spirit, does what it's supposed to do, ie. condemn the flesh of man. That's how it's a two-edged sword.
Ever read something and it really hit your flesh and you repented and made changes to your walk, then down the road the Lord opened your eyes to a "less judgmental" more spiritual meaning to it? The Word without the grace of the Spirit revealed condemned the flesh and because you agreed with your adversary while you were in the WAY with it, the sting of death was removed for you. My :2c: Blessings...
:dsunny:
:cloud9:@ Sheila..... Well if He intends to use THIS old nag, He better get busy restoring, lol..... :thumbsup:
lol! right..huh? this old gray mare 'ain't what she used to be" which is good in a lot of ways..and 'not so' in other;s. smh
:cloud9: It's true youth is wasted on the young. If I only knew then, what I know now. I could have bypassed so much of this :bdh: , kicked his butt :icon_farao: , and done this :tongue: to this :grave:, a lot longer. :winkgrin:
There seams to be some comfort in thinking about the after life.
When things aren't so comfortable in the here and now.
Old spiritual songs that sing about the coming glory.
Thinking about the coming of the Lord in my life time .
Before I knew the Lord the question of after life was unsettling.
Now on good days the coming of the Lord does not seem so pressing.
On bad days, looking to the coming of the lord gives great comfort.
The hope of the afterlife can be a huge draw for those that are suffering now.
The end of suffering is the message of the cross for today.
I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. 19 For the creation waits in eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed. 20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21 that[h] the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God.
Quote from: dajomaco on August 22, 2015, 09:26:25 PM
There seams to be some comfort in thinking about the after life.
When things aren't so comfortable in the here and now.
Old spiritual songs that sing about the coming glory.
Thinking about the coming of the Lord in my life time .
Before I knew the Lord the question of after life was unsettling.
Now on good days the coming of the Lord does not seem so pressing.
On bad days, looking to the coming of the lord gives great comfort.
The hope of the afterlife can be a huge draw for those that are suffering now.
The end of suffering is the message of the cross for today.
I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. 19 For the creation waits in eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed. 20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21 that[h] the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God.
:thumbsup:
The afterlife could be a fearful notion.
Somehow I think every person asks and answers the question of the afterlife.
I believe every person has a theory.
Faith is a requirement of every theory.
We as believers are in strong position (to witness) especially in the arena of faith.
Should we explain fearful things that will happen to them in the afterlife?
Should we explain glorious things that await them in the afterlife?
It seems to be so much easier to witness to those that are suffering, the glories of the afterlife.
,For me it is harder to witness to the proud of the coming judgement in the after life.
Eaglesway, that makes sense to me, thank you for sharing your thoughts.
Quote from: eaglesway on August 22, 2015, 05:23:26 AM
For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. John 3;17
He does judge, but this is not His prime purpose. His prime purpose is to draw all men unto Himself. To reconcile all by the blood of His cross. To gather all things into one in Christ. This is the directive He received from the Father, and it is God's core desire, plan, and will. He judges by the life He lived, and the words that were only the testimony of what He lived, the bread of life, coming down from heaven.
He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will,(Eph 1)
He must reign until every adversary has been made a footstool for His feet. He will subject many adversaries by judgment..... but that judgment is the two edged sword of His word, which pierces the veil of lies and reveals the heart of iniquity and brings repentence because he has died for us all, the ultimate testimony of God's love, the Light.
Amen. We have indeed obtained an inheritance......a glorious inheritance.
:iagree:
WHAT DIFFERENCE DOES BELIEF IN JESUS THE LAST MINUTE OF LIFE MAKE?
(This is a question I was thinking of asking on a new thread but it seems to fit here pretty well. And it fits my style better too. :declare:)
I believe we are saved from sin and death by believing in Jesus. But it is a lifelong process to be totally saved from sin and probably goes into the next life too, maybe, I don't know. What comes after this life is mostly a mystery and it's fine with me to leave it that way.
But the common teaching is that belief in Jesus makes the difference between heaven and hell. The movie 'God's Not Dead' is an example of this. I leave the room when that scene comes on where the atheist is hit by a car and repents just before he dies, which means in the movie that he now goes to heaven instead of hell. Wow, what a huge difference that made and so quickly. It doesn't make sense. But for us who believe that all will eventually be saved by belief in Jesus, what difference does it make if we believe when we are five years old or in the last minute of life? I think the earlier we believe, the better, because getting free from sin takes time. But near the end of life does it make much difference it it's one month or one minute before death?
For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;
To be conformed takes time. God's purpose is to have a group of firstfruits with the rest of the fruit, the main harvest, coming later. He is only the FIRSTBORN of MANY brethren. I think our goal is to cooperate with Him as the work is being done in us so that we can be part of that firstfruits. Maybe everyone who comes to God in this life will not necessarily be a part of the firstfruits company but at least is a start that everyone will make some time or other. So maybe it doesn't make much difference whether someone repents the last minute of life or later in the next, but an early start in this life could be important so we have more time to reach that goal?? Of course He is the author and finisher of our faith, so when or if we come in this life is not entirely up to us, I'm thinking, because not all are called to be conformed to His image now, only those He foreknew and had chosen ahead of time.
As for what to try to avoid in the after life, cooperate now and don't worry about it. :smile: :2c: That's just me and my 2 cents. Like I said above, I don't mind leaving the afterlife details a mystery.
I think we earn(receive the gift of) the jewels in our crown here in this life.
In the afterlife we will be able glorify Christ by throwing down our crowns before Christ.
The offering we have will be greater according to the sacrifice we make in this life.
Our heavenly rewards will be something we give to Jesus to honor him.
Some will have greater offerings to give to the Lord.
Some may suffer lose and have very little to offer to the King.
Quote from: bushy on August 23, 2015, 11:35:54 PM
WHAT DIFFERENCE DOES BELIEF IN JESUS THE LAST MINUTE OF LIFE MAKE?
(This is a question I was thinking of asking on a new thread but it seems to fit here pretty well. And it fits my style better too. :declare:)
I believe we are saved from sin and death by believing in Jesus. But it is a lifelong process to be totally saved from sin and probably goes into the next life too, maybe, I don't know. What comes after this life is mostly a mystery and it's fine with me to leave it that way.
But the common teaching is that belief in Jesus makes the difference between heaven and hell. The movie 'God's Not Dead' is an example of this. I leave the room when that scene comes on where the atheist is hit by a car and repents just before he dies, which means in the movie that he now goes to heaven instead of hell. Wow, what a huge difference that made and so quickly. It doesn't make sense. But for us who believe that all will eventually be saved by belief in Jesus, what difference does it make if we believe when we are five years old or in the last minute of life? I think the earlier we believe, the better, because getting free from sin takes time. But near the end of life does it make much difference it it's one month or one minute before death?
For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;
To be conformed takes time. God's purpose is to have a group of firstfruits with the rest of the fruit, the main harvest, coming later. He is only the FIRSTBORN of MANY brethren. I think our goal is to cooperate with Him as the work is being done in us so that we can be part of that firstfruits. Maybe everyone who comes to God in this life will not necessarily be a part of the firstfruits company but at least is a start that everyone will make some time or other. So maybe it doesn't make much difference whether someone repents the last minute of life or later in the next, but an early start in this life could be important so we have more time to reach that goal?? Of course He is the author and finisher of our faith, so when or if we come in this life is not entirely up to us, I'm thinking, because not all are called to be conformed to His image now, only those He foreknew and had chosen ahead of time.
As for what to try to avoid in the after life, cooperate now and don't worry about it. :smile: :2c: That's just me and my 2 cents. Like I said above, I don't mind leaving the afterlife details a mystery.
I think there's much good here bushy.
One thought about "what difference does it make...";
There must be some benefit from it. I think about the thief on the cross who believed. That was a "last minute conversion". It must have meant something good for him, and then I think about the other guy on the other cross, what he might have been facing rather than paradise. i of course don't know all that for sure, but I think it's worth wondering and praying about.
In this thread http://tentmaker.org/forum/christian-life/sozo/msg189963/#msg189963 there are many things mentioned regarding what happens instantly when one believes on Jesus as Savior. WHATEVER it all means (and we probably don't really fully know), I believe this is a major verse, and there's no mention of a time limit or time frame on the benefits; "But to all who believed him and accepted him, he gave the right to become children of God."
I have no doubt, personally, in the total sufficiency of grace in the moment of belief. In the incident of the serpent on the stick YHWH was foreshadowing the sufficiency of Christ crucified in the destruction of the wound(healing) of the snakebite. For this reason Paul was determined to know nothing among you but Christ and Him crucified. Because of this, and the totality of grace that occurs in the moment of true faith, and the connection it grants to the True Vine, belief in the last moment of life is of the utmost sufficiency, because the blood is applied to the mercy seat and the presence of God enters behind the veil(spirit and heart)- the blood is applied to the doorpost and the death angel passes over-
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
as micah says, "well glory!"
:thumbsup:
I had an uncle I was close to as a bopy. when I became a Christian I began to preach the gospel to Him. he went a lil nuts at that because his father(my Grandfather) was a very legalistic hellfire preacher in the south in the ealry to mid 1900s.
My uncle was a very bigoted man who once told me, "Well, if there is a black man in heaven I would rather go to hell". To which I replied I was about 20, 21), "Well, uncle _____, unless you change that attitude, so you shall."
At the age of 81 my uncle contracted terminal cancer. My cousin called me, in tears, worried about her father. "I am afraid daddy is going to go to hell."
I was only about 30 at the time and altho I had some insight into UR, I wasnt well versed enough to preach it yet, so I just replied, "Let's pray for him", and we did.
A week or two later Judy called me and said, "Daddy called me this morning and had me take him to church to get right with God", and she was so relieved.
Now someone might say that he was just afraid of going to hell, and they would probably be right, since that was all he knew. But sometimes fear of hell is simply an uneducated fear of the righteous judgment of God and when a person humbles themselves before God, even late in life after years of stubborness and pride..... God sees it and receives it if it is sincere.
"Some save with fear hating even the garment spotted by the flesh".
Some are seved with fear and some get in, as my brother used to say, "Robes smokin'"... LOL
Paul said, "I will become all things to all men if by any means i might save some"....
Maybe my uncle will be least among those who are in the kingdom of heven, that is better than going in his pride and filthy rags before the Lord. Whatever time we have, the only reason we have it, is to find Him, and finding Him to serve Him. Whatever blessing we incur along the way are just beautiful grace falling like rain upon the just and the unjust alike.
:thumbsup: :thumbsup:
Quote from: eaglesway on August 24, 2015, 07:57:49 AM
I had an uncle I was close to as a bopy. when I became a Christian I began to preach the gospel to Him. he went a lil nuts at that because his father(my Grandfather) was a very legalistic hellfire preacher in the south in the ealry to mid 1900s.
My uncle was a very bigoted man who once told me, "Well, if there is a black man in heaven I would rather go to hell". To which I replied I was about 20, 21), "Well, uncle _____, unless you change that attitude, so you shall."
At the age of 81 my uncle contracted terminal cancer. My cousin called me, in tears, worried about her father. "I am afraid daddy is going to go to hell."
I was only about 30 at the time and altho I had some insight into UR, I wasnt well versed enough to preach it yet, so I just replied, "Let's pray for him", and we did.
A week or two later Judy called me and said, "Daddy called me this morning and had me take him to church to get right with God", and she was so relieved.
Now someone might say that he was just afraid of going to hell, and they would probably be right, since that was all he knew. But sometimes fear of hell is simply an uneducated fear of the righteous judgment of God and when a person humbles themselves before God, even late in life after years of stubborness and pride..... God sees it and receives it if it is sincere.
"Some save with fear hating even the garment spotted by the flesh".
Some are seved with fear and some get in, as my brother used to say, "Robes smokin'"... LOL
Paul said, "I will become all things to all men if by any means i might save some"....
Maybe my uncle will be least among those who are in the kingdom of heven, that is better than going in his pride and filthy rags before the Lord. Whatever time we have, the only reason we have it, is to find Him, and finding Him to serve Him. Whatever blessing we incur along the way are just beautiful grace falling like rain upon the just and the unjust alike.
This reminds me of the parable in (Matt 20:1-20 where everyone was haired for a penny and some worked longer than the others and thought they should be paid more. Some thought they should recieve more because they worked longer but isn't eternal life, or aionion life to each the same? I think this is what Jesus was telling them. So, if one confesses Jesus at death or serve him their whole life, it doesn't matter they both recieve the same reward. Just the way I see it.
CHB
Yea, I agree. I love that parable. Turns religion on its ear :o)
Commentary, exegesis?
2 Thessalonians 1:6-10 since indeed God considers it just to repay with affliction those who afflict you, and to grant relief to you who are afflicted as well as to us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will suffer the punishment of eternal [age-during, YLT] destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might, when he comes on that day to be glorified in his saints, and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed.
Quote from: CHB on August 24, 2015, 07:16:00 PM
This reminds me of the parable in (Matt 20:1-20 where everyone was haired for a penny and some worked longer than the others and thought they should be paid more. Some thought they should recieve more because they worked longer but isn't eternal life, or aionion life to each the same? I think this is what Jesus was telling them. So, if one confesses Jesus at death or serve him their whole life, it doesn't matter they both recieve the same reward. Just the way I see it.
CHB
Or.....maybe even after death?
Quote from: jabcat on August 28, 2015, 07:27:29 PM
Commentary, exegesis?
2 Thessalonians 1:6-10 since indeed God considers it just to repay with affliction those who afflict you, and to grant relief to you who are afflicted as well as to us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will suffer the punishment of eternal [age-during, YLT] destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might, when he comes on that day to be glorified in his saints, and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed.
All the "threats" in this passage get my attention. Maybe I'll look in the Bible Threatenings Explained section of the TM site and see if any of this is addressed.
One thing in particular that sticks out to me is, "away from the presence of the Lord..." I've thought of God's punishments as being "in His presence", i.e., His hand doing it, Him directly involved. "If I make my bed in sheol you are there", etc. However, on the surface, this indicates being cut off and could certainly be used by ET or ED as evidence of their position.
Another thing that sticks out is, "and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed.." which IMO, again shows benefit to believing the gospel now (when possible). Thoughts?
Before I was a UR Christian, I used to interpret "Hell" as being left in our 'graves'.
In other words, I envisioned, that if we did not choose God, then all that is left is for our bodies to return to dust, with no where else to go.
I don't know about you all, but all the dancing devils in Hell, are not anymore frightening to me, personally, than to be left in one's body to slowly rot and decay, in darkness and totally alone. Where the fire is not quenched (in the form of oxygenation) and the worm does not die. Can one truly picture returning to dust, slowly? So, in my view, we could still be in Sheol, and still be without God, and suffering punishment.
What do you think of that one, jabcat? :declare:
I always said I was 'out of the box'. Hopefully, I will be. :LH:
D. :2c:
I'm thinkin' LOL :laugh2:
Dandelion,that's what used to freak me out,too! :eek:
Conscious, and rotting in the grave? Ewwwww...I can just hear Vincent Price chuckling in the background...
Jabcat, 2 Thessalonians does not refer to afterlife punishments. They have to do with the persecution of christians ("they that trouble you") that would be avenged by "eonian destruction". An age-during removal of honor and esteem. A shaming. And because it is God's revenge, a troubling like they troubled christians. (God does not exceed eye for an eye) It does nowhere speak about death and the afterlife.
Thanks for the reply. I agree that the first part of it is addressing this life. But look at this part; "They will suffer the punishment of eternal [age-during, YLT] destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might, when he comes on that day "..this seems to be concerning judgment in the age to come. Again, if so, it could be a pretty powerful verse for ET/ED, and a troublesome one that needs further correct interpretation from UR perspective. :2c:
IIn another place I dealt with the "away from" issue. It is "apo". In over 600 usages it is only translated "away from" in 2 Thess 1:9.
Everywhere elase it is translated "from" or "of" or "out of" or "because of"
The aspect of separation that is intrinsic to "apo" is misconstrued here because it is always separation as in something coming out of something, in other word light shining "out of"(apo) a lamp is separating from it, but is also coming out of it.
Mt 12:43When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none.
Matthew 10:28 not you should fear because of those who kill
The unclean spirit is coming out of the man......the fear is "because of" those who kill.
In Rev 14:10 They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb.
it is "because of" and "out of" the presnece of the Lord, as in coming out of His presence due to His proximity and the greatness of His glory that the punishment/testing/purging/exposing(sword of the spirit, fire in His eyes) will occur.
This mistranslation of "apo" in 2 Thess is a theological impression placed upon the scriptures by translators to re-inforce ET theology.
They will be tormented "because of" the presence of the Lord....otherwise 2 Thess1:9 and Rev 14:10 would be direct contradicitions.
As for "torment"- basanisthēsetai
and she was with child; and she cried out, being in labor and in pain to give birth.
48Seeing them straining at the oars, for the wind was against them, at about the fourth watch of the night He came to them, walking on the sea; and He intended to pass by them.
The light is fire to darkness. Love is a fire to hatred. Communion is a fire to chaos. The torment of the wicked in the presence of God and his holy angels will last only as long as they cling to their wickedness. It will "come out" of them like the unclean spirit that had "gone out' of the possessed man.
"The spirit that now works in the sons of disobedience". "The god of this world has blinded their eyes so that they cannot see the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ."
As the light o His presence penetrates and consumes the veils and self centeredness(a painful process not unlike child-birth), revealing the glory of sacrificial love in the core of their being, their "consciousness of evil" will be destroyed and they will have a "change of heart" and will bow before Him and confess His name with rejoicing.
"For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now."
:2c:
makes a lot of sense, pulls some things together. thanks John, good word. :thumbsup:
:cloud9: Amen :thumbsup: