What if both are true?

[thinktank]

What if soul sleep and immortal spirit are both true?

For Adam was told that he dies after eating the fruit. So now being spiritually dead, he could no longer see or hear God and his spirit would decay and also his knowledge of God. His descendands would now cater to the body and ignore the spirit and its needs. So now instead of worshipping God in spirit, they would worship a God they made with hands, something that they could see.

Paganism dominated until Christ came to restore our spirit, and his teachings were borrowed for other religions from being one of worshipping a God which one can see, to worshipping an invisible God, e.g Muslim, buddist.

So people are all spiritually dead and the scriptures say, that they sleep in the dust, but God came to make us alive and we become born again, this time of the spirit, so that Christ says
he that beliveth on me, shall never die. Those that become born again, don't particarly feel anything, I think this is because the reborn spirit, is to small to make an impact, so the bible tells us to feed upon the word of God that we may grow.

In the great white throne judgment, the sleeping spiritually dead are revived by God and brought up to be judged.

[WhiteWings]

The soul sleep verses are all in OT. What if the resurrection of Jesus ended the soul sleep?

For Adam was told that he dies after eating the fruit. So now being spiritually dead,

I wonder if that means the spirit is really dead or just 'disconnected'. If not it could mean that the spirit gets resurrected many times during the lifetime of a luke warm Christian.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: I'm doing some more studying on this.....I'll get back to this.....Blessings....

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Thinktank... :hithere:

Don't know everything, but here's how I see it:

The "SPIRIT" is not who we are... As MEN, ...WE are [animated] DUST... Gen 3:19 -- The SPIRIT which animates, is the LIGHT which is CHRIST, which "LIGHTS" [makes alive/animate] every man which enters the world -- John 1:9

The portion of YHVH given to be the "man", "willieH" --- is part of HIM which is just a "part" of the "ALL" that YHVH God, ...IS -- 1 Cor 15:28 

His "CHILDREN", are manifestations of the LIVING KNOWLEDGE which is IN the Heart of YHVH, being manifested "IMAGES" of HIM and HIS KNOWLEDGE which contains GOOD and EVIL...

The WORD is that which CONTAINS this "KNOWLEDGE" -- Gen 3:22 -- and that KNOWLEDGE is that which is being expressed within the manifestation of this realm.

The "SOUL" ceases to BE, when it dies (from its involvement in the manifestation of EVIL )-- Ecc 9:5 -- which is WHY the "death" of each saint [child] of God is PRECIOUS to Him... for said "involvement" is FINISHED.

That which is "beyond" this LIFE is that which was BEFORE it... as ALL the Sons of God shouted for JOY at the Creation -- Job 38:7 -- Luke 15:11-32

It is my opinion, that our PRIMARY goal is to be seeking LOVE, not "knowledge" (knowledge is just a means to the enlightenment of the greater issue)... We should be seeking the revelation of the LOVE which was so MAJESTIC, that it was willing to give up His only Son to redeem and reconcile the Creation which had been given over to the manifestation of EVIL...

KNOWLEDGE is not the ultimate thing... LOVE is... Eph 3:19 -- in LOVE is found the SURPASSING of KNOWLEDGE, and the FULLNESS of GOD... which IS -- ALL in ALL

...willieH  :cloud9:

[CHB]

The soul sleep verses are all in OT. What if the resurrection of Jesus ended the soul sleep?

For Adam was told that he dies after eating the fruit. So now being spiritually dead,

I wonder if that means the spirit is really dead or just 'disconnected'. If not it could mean that the spirit gets resurrected many times during the lifetime of a luke warm Christian.

WW,

I have wondered this myself???  Here is something I have come to really think about as being true.

Before Christ no one ascended to heaven. Even up to John no one had ascended to heaven except Christ who came down from heaven. Paul speaks many times about the resurrection as if it will happen any time. All of the apostles expected Christ to return in their day. According to the scriptures such words as, I come quickly, this generation will not pass till all be fulfilled, those who pierced Jesus would look upon him, John living till Christ came back and so forth. In (1Thess. 4) Paul is speaking as if this will take place at that time not 2000 years in the future. Jesus told the 7 Churches "behold I come quickly".

I am not certain of this but from reading all the scriptures, there was a resurrection in John's day and he was the last apostle living when it happened.

I don't think any one has gone on to heaven after they died since that time period. There is another resurrection in the future when Christ comes back again, at least this is where I am at at this point.

If someone has a better answer for all of the scriptures that point to a resurrection and ascension I would like to read them.

CHB

[CHB]

I guess no one has even thought about this? Looks like I am the only one that questions these many scriptures.

CHB

[WhiteWings]

WW, I have wondered this myself???

I don't know what you wondered about  :laughing7:

Before Christ no one ascended to heaven. Even up to John no one had ascended to heaven except Christ who came down from heaven. Paul speaks many times about the resurrection as if it will happen any time.

You are right about that. Assume for a moment there was soul sleep before Jesus but not after. Not a weird scenario. Jesus is resurrection so it's no suprise He could be the turning point in soul sleep. I would guess soul sleep would end near the resurrection of Jesus. I would say somewhere between His ascending to heaven and say 50 days later. Or perhaps in the extreme when the Temple got destroyed.
For me "soon" is also connected to how time is used (in the Bible). Time is always related to humans. For a human soon isn't 2000 years. I would say more like 2 months at most.

All of the apostles expected Christ to return in their day. According to the scriptures such words as, I come quickly, this generation will not pass till all be fulfilled,

What is a generation? The meaning of generation in Hebrew is much wider than in Greek. NT is written in Greek is most often said. But there are also scholars who disagree with that. One of teh Hebrew definitions could also be read as "this age" Or pehaps even "this is the last age of Fathers plan"

[CHB]

WW,

I wondered about the same things you wondered about.  :laughing7:

Thanks for your reply.

Here is something else I wondered about. There are scriptures that mention Christ returning with his saints, who are the saints? Some say, angels but what if they are the FIRSTFRUITS in (1Cor. 15:23). How can Christ be a firstfruits, wouldn't he be a firstfruit? I believe the Concordant says firstfruit, am not sure about this, will have to look it up. In Rev. John is in the process of worshipping who was speaking to him and he tells John I am of your brethern the prophets. Chapter 14 speaks of the hundred and fourty four thousand as if they are in heaven.

These are a few of many scriptures I wonder about.

CHB

[Nathan]

I'm wondering if our interpretation of Scripture stating Jesus was the only one who ascended really means no one ever made it into heaven before he did, or since for that matter.  What if that wasn't what he was trying to say at all?  Where did Enoch go when God took him?  Where did Elijah go?  When Peter James and John saw Elijah and Moses, were they really there or was that just an "illusion"?  Was God really just tricking them to see something that really wasn't there?

I get the feeling that not everything is as it appears to be. 

I do like the opening thoughts entertaining the notion that it's referring to spiritual death rather than literal soul sleep.  And again, I still believe death simply means separation . . .disconnection . . .not just absence of life.  I think it has a lot to do with passing from one state to another . . .from one realm over to another.

[WhiteWings]

How can Christ be a firstfruits, wouldn't he be a firstfruit?

First Fruits is the first harvest of the year. It was on the sunday when Jesus' tomb was found empty.
The whole harvest (usually small) is first fruits. But the harvest starts with picking one/few fruits and high priest presents that fruit(s) to the people that gathered at the Temple. (that's how i remember it)
In every harvest there is always something harvested first (and last)
Jesus was the first fruit of the first fruits harvest of that year.

[CHB]

In every harvest there is always something harvested first (and last)
Jesus was the first fruit of the first fruits harvest of that year.

Yes, I believe Jesus was a firstfruit also I am wondering if there wasn't a firstfruits harvest that happened in John's day? Remember Jesus said in (John 4:35) Say not ye, There are yet four months, and then cometh harvest? behold I say unto you, Lift up your eyes, and look on the fields; for they are white already to harvest.

If they were ready to harvest why wait 2000 more years, wouldn't the fruit be ruined, rotten?

CHB

[WhiteWings]

Say not ye, There are yet four months, and then cometh the harvest? behold, I say unto you, Lift up your eyes, and look on the fields; for they are white already to harvest.

And he that reapeth receiveth wages, and gathereth fruit unto life eternal: that both He that soweth and he that reapeth may rejoice together."

Folks, Christ Himself is the "sower" who began sowing the seed at the beginning of the harvest season. He said so Himself in Matthew 13:37. He is also the "reaper" who brings the harvest to an end. That is exactly what He is stating in John 4:34. He is the One who will "finish the work" that He began. Praise the Lord!

But when is the work to be finished? Folks, it is exactly four months between the Festival of Pentecost and the Festival of Tabernacles. Count it for yourself. So it is obvious that the Lord met the Samaritan woman at Jacob's well on the day of Pentecost. Folks, the Festival of Tabernacles is the celebration of all the completed harvests [barley...wheat...grape] at the end of the year. But there, on the day of Pentecost, the Lord explicitly told His disciples, "DO NOT SAY.....There are yet four months, and then cometh the harvest...." The Lord told His disciples the harvest was ready right then and was being reaped that day. What day? The day of Pentecost!

Folks, the Lord is coming to resurrect and rapture His New Testament saints to glory at the end of the barley harvest on the day of Pentecost. Glory! Praise the Lord! Hallelujah!

If they were ready to harvest why wait 2000 more years, wouldn't the fruit be ruined, rotten?

I believe there is a deep meaning in the harvests. But I also believe it's more complex than just counting days.
If the harvest should have started then because else it would be ruined, then the other harvests should have been completed too by now.
I think the havests are continuously because the sowing (birth) is too.

[thinktank]

In every harvest there is always something harvested first (and last)
Jesus was the first fruit of the first fruits harvest of that year.

If they were ready to harvest why wait 2000 more years, wouldn't the fruit be ruined, rotten?

CHB

Jesus was the first seed and if it die it bringeth much fruit. When fruit dies, the seeds in it then multiply and go back into the soil to produce another harvest. So Christ continues to sow seed throughout time, through his saints, who are his servants. :2c:

[CHB]

If they were ready to harvest why wait 2000 more years, wouldn't the fruit be ruined, rotten?

I believe there is a deep meaning in the harvests. But I also believe it's more complex than just counting days.
If the harvest should have started then because else it would be ruined, then the other harvests should have been completed too by now.
I think the havests are continuously because the sowing (birth) is too.

What if that was the only harvest and the next harvest is yet to come because the field isn't white enough to harvest? Maybe it isn't ready yet? Look how long it took for the first harvest to be ready.

CHB

[WhiteWings]

I think there are very good and very evil during every harvest time since creation. So every year has it's first fruit harvests...?

What if that was the only harvest and the next harvest is yet to come because the field isn't white enough to harvest? Maybe it isn't ready yet? Look how long it took for the first harvest to be ready.

If that's the case then the next harvests will be in a very distant future.
A cycle of harvests takes a year. The first harvest was ~4000 years from Adam.
I'm no farmer but I think the fields  for the spring crop is sown in september.
Jesus was sown/born in september and harvested/resurected in April.
Harvest Seasons of Ancient Israel

I think Adam was born in the same month. But most likely another year :laughing7:

Look how long it took for the first harvest to be ready

The first harvest took 4000 years = 7 months => 1 month=571 years
The harvesting ends 7 months after the first harvest.
A total of 8000 years.
Right now we would be in the middle of the grapes harvest.

[CHB]

Very interesting.  :happy3:


CHB

[micah7:9]

Soul sleep? Just what is soul sleep? I believe I know what you say, but what is soul sleep I cant find it in my Bible . Is it like spiritual death? I always thought that when you died you were dead. Dont it say in the Bible that the soul that sinneth it shall die? Ezk 18:20 So tell me more what the Word says about soul sleep?

[micah7:9]

willieH: Hi Thinktank... :hithere:

Don't know everything, but here's how I see it:

The "SPIRIT" is not who we are... As MEN, ...WE are [animated] DUST... Gen 3:19 -- The SPIRIT which animates, is the LIGHT which is CHRIST, which "LIGHTS" [makes alive/animate] every man which enters the world -- John 1:9

The portion of YHVH given to be the "man", "willieH" --- is part of HIM which is just a "part" of the "ALL" that YHVH God, ...IS -- 1 Cor 15:28 

His "CHILDREN", are manifestations of the LIVING KNOWLEDGE which is IN the Heart of YHVH, being manifested "IMAGES" of HIM and HIS KNOWLEDGE which contains GOOD and EVIL...

The WORD is that which CONTAINS this "KNOWLEDGE" -- Gen 3:22 -- and that KNOWLEDGE is that which is being expressed within the manifestation of this realm.

The "SOUL" ceases to BE, when it dies (from its involvement in the manifestation of EVIL )-- Ecc 9:5 -- which is WHY the "death" of each saint [child] of God is PRECIOUS to Him... for said "involvement" is FINISHED.

That which is "beyond" this LIFE is that which was BEFORE it... as ALL the Sons of God shouted for JOY at the Creation -- Job 38:7 -- Luke 15:11-32

It is my opinion, that our PRIMARY goal is to be seeking LOVE, not "knowledge" (knowledge is just a means to the enlightenment of the greater issue)... We should be seeking the revelation of the LOVE which was so MAJESTIC, that it was willing to give up His only Son to redeem and reconcile the Creation which had been given over to the manifestation of EVIL...

KNOWLEDGE is not the ultimate thing... LOVE is... Eph 3:19 -- in LOVE is found the SURPASSING of KNOWLEDGE, and the FULLNESS of GOD... which IS -- ALL in ALL

...willieH  :cloud9:

Very well said. Very well said.

[whome?]

I am not certain of this but from reading all the scriptures, there was a resurrection in John's day and he was the last apostle living when it happened.

I don't think any one has gone on to heaven after they died since that time period. There is another resurrection in the future when Christ comes back again, at least this is where I am at at this point.

If someone has a better answer for all of the scriptures that point to a resurrection and ascension I would like to read them.

CHB

The only problem I have with this is that if there was a resurrection in John's day, wouldn't that have been the second coming? Which means if there is another "coming" it would be a Third Coming so to speak. I can find a second coming in the bible but I can't find a third one.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: I can't find a "second" (and final) coming in there. I think the problem was that when they that knew the truth died off and Constantine got involved, the meaning of His coming, as being He did come, He is coming, and He will come, was "lost".

So to take the people's "eyes" off looking for His appearing in the light of revelation, visions, and dreams, the speaking gifts, ect., lest any might come to the truth and break free of the tyranny of the "church", they created a doctrine of Him bodily coming, to get their eyes on that instead. My  :2c: Blessings...

[whome?]

:cloud9: I can't find a "second" (and final) coming in there.

Hebrews 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

I can't find a third, fourth, or fifth coming. Just seems like Jesus was coming back one more time to finish things to me. Which makes me question if there was a coming in 70AD, is there another coming still in the future?

Sorry for taking this off-topic.

[Beloved Servant]

                                                                                   

IT IS FINISHED

[Cardinal]

:cloud9: I can't find a "second" (and final) coming in there.

Hebrews 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

I can't find a third, fourth, or fifth coming. Just seems like Jesus was coming back one more time to finish things to me. Which makes me question if there was a coming in 70AD, is there another coming still in the future?

Sorry for taking this off-topic.

:cloud9: Did you notice that it says, TO THEM THAT LOOK FOR HIM HE APPEARS? Most of the world is not looking for Him, but to those that are, He appears. He appears without sin (therefore without a physical body that houses/takes on sin), but unto salvation.

He appears in our "heavens" when we look for Him, as He is NOW, for we'll not know Him after the flesh, but after the Spirit from now on. This is one way He appears, in that AHA! moment of revelation that is quickened to us by and through His Spirit.

The reason this "second time" is worded that way, is because He appears as He is now (after the Spirit, not the flesh), and He is no longer bound by a flesh body constrained by the realm of time....... so His appearing (the "second time") is constant to those that are looking for Him.

Salvation is not a one time experience, but a saving unto the end of our salvation, ie. spirit, soul, AND body. We are saved, we are being saved, we shall be saved. Blessings...

[whome?]

Did you notice that it says, TO THEM THAT LOOK FOR HIM HE APPEARS? Most of the world is not looking for Him, but to those that are, He appears.

Yes I noticed that but I take this to be "on the last day" so to speak.

He appears without sin (therefore without a physical body that houses/takes on sin), but unto salvation.

I wasn't trying to argue any type of body that he would come back in. Just that Jesus claimed he would come back again, which would be the second time. If this second time was in 70AD (during John's time) how do we get he will come back again for a third or forth or fifth time? However, I do believe he was without sin in his physical body the first time so I do not see "sin" here as being "flesh".

Salvation is not a one time experience, but a saving unto the end of our salvation, ie. spirit, soul, AND body. We are saved, we are being saved, we shall be saved. Blessings...

I agree. But I understand "without sin, but unto salvation" as being the 'we shall be saved' part. The last day. The second coming.

Maybe you guys here see "the ending" different, I don't know. Or it could be that we are just talking past each other. Let me rephrase what I was getting at.

I am not certain of this but from reading all the scriptures, there was a resurrection in John's day and he was the last apostle living when it happened.

This is what got to me, it was posted by CHB. While I am not certain either, I agree with the above quote. Reading all the scriptures it does seem like there was a resurrection in John's day and that he was the last apostle living when it happened.

However, I understand the scriptures as teaching that Christ came to earth, taught men, die for our sins, returned to Heaven to some day come back (the second time) to redeem the "saved". My problem is that if this happened in John's day, how do we know he is coming again (a third time) to redeem us who consider ourselves the "saved" today?

Do you see my problem? I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything, only trying to understand things myself. I was hoping CHB could add his thoughts (If he is a he!). It just seems to me that if Jesus returned ... say 70AD the only thing left for us is judgement after we die.

:dontknow:

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: The last day was not 70AD, as the tabernacle pattern shows. Far from it. There are many holes in that theory, not the least of which is a historical text of one Ireaneus (sp) who said that John wrote revelation in the end of Domitain's reign, which puts it's authorship after 70AD, WELL AFTER 70AD, and shoots down the whole Nero as beast thing, especially since Nero died in 66AD. There are many others, but as I have had this conversation before, would prefer not to go there again.

And I explained how He returns, in the "time(S) of refreshing" that it was said would come.

As for the sin issue, He came as a man and took on our sins. Since He was the perfect sacrifice and provision has been made, He doesn't come back in that way again.

The resurrection that happened in John's day was the resurrection of those that died prior to 33AD. There is still a resurrection to come, which is for one thing, why Paul said he was pressing in so if by any means he might attain the resurrection. The error of the Sadducees was that they said the resurrection had come already. Blessings...