what happens when you die?

[CHB]

I have wondered if God has raised some, or also wondered if those who came out of the grave at Jesus's death (not resurrection, which is curious to me) was a momentary thing... But mostly the thing that most sticks out to me is simply the idea of we humans having inherent immortality.. (Jesus said the Father has given to Him to have "life in Himself")

I have wondered about this also. It says that Jesus will "bring the saints with him". Also, Jesus spoke about John and said" why would it concern you if "he remain till I come"....Not exact words.... Another thing, Paul is saying "WE WHICH ARE ALIVE AND REMAIN WILL BE CAUGHT UP". Paul was speaking to those at that time. The event in Revelation where John talked to someone who said "I am of they brethern the prophets"...could have been an angel...Jesus was always speaking of "this generation". when all the things was suppose to happen. Those who pierced him would see him return. How could this be unless Jesus returned at that time?

If Christ came back and there was a resurrection...we know that both happened...but what if the apostles and others were resurrected, taken to heaven with Christ and there are those who have died since then who remain in their graves until Christ comes back again? This would clear up a lot of confusion. 

I could go on and on. There are a lot of scriptures that support this and I believe I have mentioned this before in other threads similar to this one.

CHB

[marie glen]

I have wondered if God has raised some, or also wondered if those who came out of the grave at Jesus's death (not resurrection, which is curious to me) was a momentary thing... But mostly the thing that most sticks out to me is simply the idea of we humans having inherent immortality.. (Jesus said the Father has given to Him to have "life in Himself")

I have wondered about this also. It says that Jesus will "bring the saints with him". Also, Jesus spoke about John and said" why would it concern you if "he remain till I come"....Not exact words.... Another thing, Paul is saying "WE WHICH ARE ALIVE AND REMAIN WILL BE CAUGHT UP". Paul was speaking to those at that time. The event in Revelation where John talked to someone who said "I am of they brethern the prophets"...could have been an angel...Jesus was always speaking of "this generation". when all the things was suppose to happen. Those who pierced him would see him return. How could this be unless Jesus returned at that time?

If Christ came back and there was a resurrection...we know that both happened...but what if the apostles and others were resurrected, taken to heaven with Christ and there are those who have died since then who remain in their graves until Christ comes back again? This would clear up a lot of confusion. 

I could go on and on. There are a lot of scriptures that support this and I believe I have mentioned this before in other threads similar to this one.

CHB

Interesting.. if I'm remembering right, "generation" in the Greek is closer to "race" than what we think of as generation...?

Usually however, i lean toward "the saints coming with Him" as being after the two (part) harvest of Rev 19.. and 2 Thess 1:7,8 "He comes in fire" (imo, man's own consequences/the split atom) "and with angels" (..i.e., "immediately after the tribulation of those days.." Mt 24:39,31 ) ..when He gathers branches to be burned (to armageddon) and His wheat into the barn.. as the fire comes 'down' the saints go up, meeting Him in the air.. and return with Him to Mt of Olives where He left from (Acts 1:19 "ye shall see Him return as you saw Him go."

I believe all will view all of history on Great Day of Judgment.. so those which He was talking to, will "see Him return". It's my belief this viewing of all history by all, explains many things.. "every eye will see Him"

tho I sometimes think it's possible some have risen, possibly "Jesus the firstfruits" includes the apostles.. but more often I think of "we which are alive and remain" as an inclusive,"we christians" meaning of all christians, and not necessarily, "we christians" of his day.. Who knows?! we "see as through a glass unclearly"! :smile:
( :2c: )

[marie glen]

  Hi   Marie !!  :dsunny:

I just wanted to  say after reading your post ,    I can agree with  some  of it as well

  But I have  come to the conclusion    that Jesus Christ   is where all will be gathered into HIM   the dead and living  [1 Corinth 15 ] to be presented to GOD   
WHO IS SO HOLY ,PURE and beyond a human concept   ,   that we have  much to look forward to ..

    Amen!! :thumbsup: :thumbsup: ...hello sister!  :icon_flower:

Now for me the judgment for some  is  now and some   are not till the physically die
  those whom are  made   pure though   many sufferings    in the world  being refined , there is a gathering before him in Revelations that have come out of the tribulation  that are made pure and  given  white robes   , for me this is the covering of Christ  as to be further clothed upon , just what this means I really do not know , but its  to be  made ready for the presence of GOD HIMSELF    ...

    :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :banana: :dsunny:

...I agree about the harvest/judgment at His return.. ..which I see as tares are gathered to be burned/armageddon.. but the wheat is gathered into His barn/to Him..

To me the second coming of Christ is  found in Hebrews 9 ;28  27And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment, 28so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him.

If we can believe Pauls sayings  we know there are those dead in Christ    undergoing the same baptism  HE DID , , not all come this way  ,this may be where we  all seem to differ in   how death is  done away with in the LIFE &CHRIST ..

do you mean when Jesus said the apostles would drink the same cup and be baptized with the same baptism as Him? (martyred?)(Mark 10:39) or do you mean 1 Cor 15:29 "..what shall they do who are baptized for the dead, if the dead do not rise at all? why also are they baptized for the dead?" which is a question I totally do not know why they would be baptized for the dead? Strong's includes "as a ceremony"..?

   behold I come quickly  ,,  For some it is like a thief in the night and for those  who waits on the Lord it is the new day dawning in their hearts 

  Amen.. and I think for those waiting He gave clear signs of His coming.. not known by those who don't know Him (and not known by believers cold or lukewarm?) Plus His Spirit "when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth.. .. and He will tell you things to come." John 16:13...

but as far as the final end we have those scriptures that explain  judgment  till  Christ be  all authority   not just  begining to reign   from the  point of the cross and bringing in the new covenant of Life by the perfect sacrifice   and grace gift  of God , though Jesus Christ HIMSELF

Amen!!! "Of His government" (governing) "and peace, there shall be no end"!!  :banana: :banana: Isaiah 9:7?/7:9?
:dsunny:

Rev 22 11"Let the one who does wrong, still do wrong; and the one who is filthy, still be filthy; and let the one who is righteous, still practice righteousness; and the one who is holy, still keep himself holy."

..some will rise (still) in their sins (2nd resurrection, rev 20:7,12, which imo, begins inferior to the 1st resurrection when believers "put on immortality"  :banana: but will catch up!)

..I am persuaded that  death will not hold  mankind eternally ,    Jesus will make    them His before presenting them to the HOLY FATHER /CREATOR  OF ALL THINGS  FOR HIS GLORY .

We are in TOTAL agreement on that one!! :smile: (rev 21:1-6)

JUDGMENT COME UPON sin and evil   1 Peter 4;17
For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?


It seems though suffering  the evil and deaths hold we are given Jesus  true word  and sure promise  though   Him in faith and obedience   of this

John 5 ...23so that all will honor the Son even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.

24"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

here is perhaps where we differ, I believe we have passed into life, in this life, but will also, unless He returns before I die, i believe I will be one of those as 1 thess 4 who will be "asleep in Christ" and will rise and meet Him at His return.. (1 thess 4:13-17)

25"Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.

Amen! And ultimately ALL will hear!! :cloud9: "all the ends of the earth will remember and turn to the LORD and all families will worship Him" Ps 22:27

[rosered]

  Thanks Marie  for answering    !! :thumbsup:

I guess some believe  that Jesus returns in the Spirit and its instantly for those    who are in Christ     and 1 CORTH 15  explains  it pretty good
  and there are those who believe the second coming he is coming in a        flesh body again ?? every eye will see Him  I dont think so  .. as a second return ?

I believe   its all unseen to the natural  eye ,    because Jesus always said tell no man    those things he was doing  , they would NOT believe ,but hinder   Christ cause


 

[lastpost]

I believe that there are always two interpretations in a scripture - a material interpretation and a spiritual interpretation. The material interpretation is often the outcome of man's mind inspired by God, whereas the spiritual interpretation is the outcome of God's Spirit.

In my opinion, from a material point of view, the symbolism used in Revelation to the early Christians and its use in the rebuttal of contemporary Rome, in particular the emperor Domitian and his requirements to be worshipped as "Our Master and our God", is powerfully represented.

A few examples of this contrasting symbolism could be as follows: Domitian demanded that twenty-four choral singers precede and praise him wherever he went (in contrast to the twenty-four elders in Revelation); and that everyone bow to Domitian when he passed them or be put to death (in contrast to the Living Saviour who is responsible for everlasting life and to whom "every knee shall bow"); and the "divine" infant son of Domitian being the head of the gods surrounded by seven stars (in contrast to the seven stars held by Jesus, the son of God).

So, from a direct and more material viewpoint, as well as a reprimand for sinful behaviour, the book of Revelation was an encouragement from the Living Christ - the Beginning and the End - to His early followers in the churches, and their sporadic persecution and martyrdoms for His sake by the Roman Empire which was driven by evil. There was a plan for the world, and its ending was most assuredly controlled by God.

Then, as I think I said, every scripture has a spiritual interpretation. For me, I can see many, many places in Revelation that apply to the individual - uniquely, to one, applying to one human life and its ending and what happens at the end of each human life when its time is up on planet Earth.

The Book of Revelation urges from the very beginning recognition of the fact that "the time is at hand" - the time is near, not at some time long in the future. I believe that at the end of a person's Earth life, the Master Christ comes to that soul with His angelic host.

Jesus says: "Behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his works".

If he or she has been a faithful servant then he or she finds themselves taken to a beautiful Heavenly World to which they are accustomed spiritually; conversely, one continually committing evil, the constant violator of Divine Law, finds himself transported to a place worse than "life" (darkness or outer darkness) - he dies a physical death and now finds a far worse prospect, he is living a spiritual death - a second death, and here he must abide until the desire to rise out of the awful place he or she finds themselves in is strong enough to do so.

"Let the one who is doing harm continue to do harm; let the one who is vile continue to be vile; let the one who is righteous continue to live righteously; let the one who is holy continue to be holy".

If how a follower of Christ lives did not matter then the messages in Revelation would be pointless. The warnings given to the churches in the Book of Revelation strongly emphasise turning from the sinful motives and deeds. Indeed, one of the churches has become so involved with sin-production that only a few of the community are deemed as worthy - the significance of white garments is not lost on believers in the spiritual transfiguration of the soul-body. [And my own personal belief is that the spiritual body reacts in harmony with its surroundings, so that if a person is passing through a field of, say, musical flowers, then the outer garment will harmonise with those flowers - or if passing a translucent mutli-dimensional marbled wall (for example) then appropriate harmonious colours automatically adjust in the "robe" that the spiritual body is wearing.]

The time is at hand indeed, and it comes to all - physical death. There are two bodies at the end of physical life, one body is left for carrion and the other body is taken by angels, "Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left" etc. - the physical body and the spiritual body respectively - two bodies, but of just one person. "There is a natural body and there is (esti => is) a spiritual body", and they co-exist in the same person. Let that person be a true follower of the Saviour Jesus the Christ, and his or her "end" shall be the beginning of Life Divine.

I think it will be many years yet before that which is taken materially is given its spiritual significance. The millions of "end-time" Christians who believe in everlasting hellfire and who eagerly await an angry Avenger to come and carry out their hateful desires for them, do not serve the cause of the God who is Love.

I believe it is also harmful to be anticipating catastrophe, and I do not listen or worry about soothsayers pointing to this sign and that sign, but I carry on with my life, and try with effort and redoubling of effort to make my life one of dedication to following Christ in everything big and small, in service and in love, every fraction of a second - because He is worthy of it, and one "day" it will be the strongest desire in the heart of all desires - it will be everything to serve Him with everything.

I have great hope that things are changing - and they change for the better, because the power of the Holy Spirit is beyond anything conceived of by the mind of man - and the Holy Spirit is at work in the world today in a most potent manner yet unseen for the most part.

Peace and Harmony are of God:
"For the LORD is God, and he created the heavens and earth and put everything in place. He made the world to be lived in, not to be a place of empty chaos."
Isaiah 45:18

[rosered]

  Thanks for sharing your heart lastpost  :HeartThrob:

especially this !!

he time is at hand indeed, and it comes to all - physical death. There are two bodies at the end of physical life, one body is left for carrion and the other body is taken by angels, "Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left" etc. - the physical body and the spiritual body respectively - two bodies, but of just one person. "There is a natural body and there is (esti => is) a spiritual body", and they co-exist in the same person. Let that person be a true follower of the Saviour Jesus the Christ, and his or her "end" shall be the beginning of Life Divine.

I think it will be many years yet before that which is taken materially is given its spiritual significance. The millions of "end-time" Christians who believe in everlasting hellfire and who eagerly await an angry Avenger to come and carry out their hateful desires for them, do not serve the cause of the God who is Love.

I believe it is also harmful to be anticipating catastrophe, and I do not listen or worry about soothsayers pointing to this sign and that sign, but I carry on with my life, and try with effort and redoubling of effort to make my life one of dedication to following Christ in everything big and small, in service and in love, every fraction of a second - because He is worthy of it, and one "day" it will be the strongest desire in the heart of all desires - it will be everything to serve Him with everything.

I have great hope that things are changing - and they change for the better, because the power of the Holy Spirit is beyond anything conceived of by the mind of man - and the Holy Spirit is at work in the world today in a most potent manner yet unseen for the most part.

[/b]

I  agree  :iagree:  Amen !
 
I have considered those whom are given little understanding   in this life about the things and works of the Holy Spirit & fire baptism , teaching and comforting    and    correction /conviction   how their ignorance   would be a blessing  where there is no law there is no sin imputed     [Romans  5]   

and How those given much  has the more to do  all according to the Mercy of God

   the warning is   not to harden our hearts and that is  important    when we see so much evil  being done towards one another to those without law     

there  nature is no different than the animals that roam freely to do as the please , of whom I have done  also in times past

But I know from scripture that  grace abounds the more    in Romans 5   Paul states this  , and those that know this   should not    have any thing to do with  evil 

For me that is the  dividing factor in those  walking in the flesh/death realm   still  and those  walking in the Spirit of Life

I agree there is the natural and literal   that we see  plainly the evil  and those still trapped in sin and death    and seeing   the good    done by the Lords Spirit working in those   to whom its given    and the Spiritual is      only seen by those whom have been healed   by the Lord Jesus Christ     as eyes to see and ears to hear and heart to understand what the Spirit of truth is showing    and  hearing and knowing   that  is   far better than seeing with natural eyes of understanding
Matt 13    speaking in those parables     
14"In their case the prophecy of Isaiah is being fulfilled,
which says, 'YOU WILL KEEP ON HEARING, BUT WILL NOT UNDERSTAND; YOU WILL KEEP ON SEEING, BUT WILL NOT PERCEIVE;

15FOR THE HEART OF THIS PEOPLE HAS BECOME DULL, WITH THEIR EARS THEY SCARCELY HEAR, AND THEY HAVE CLOSED THEIR EYES,

OTHERWISE THEY WOULD SEE WITH THEIR EYES, HEAR WITH THEIR EARS, AND UNDERSTAND WITH THEIR HEART AND RETURN,

AND I WOULD HEAL THEM.' 16"But blessed are your eyes, because they see; and your ears, because they hear

[Abigail]

Thank you all for your thoughts. Lastpost, you gave me some more issues to ponder.

If he or she has been a faithful servant then he or she finds themselves taken to a beautiful Heavenly World to which they are accustomed spiritually; conversely, one continually committing evil, the constant violator of Divine Law, finds himself transported to a place worse than "life" (darkness or outer darkness) - he dies a physical death and now finds a far worse prospect, he is living a spiritual death - a second death, and here he must abide until the desire to rise out of the awful place he or she finds themselves in is strong enough to do so.

"Let the one who is doing harm continue to do harm; let the one who is vile continue to be vile; let the one who is righteous continue to live righteously; let the one who is holy continue to be holy".

Do you mean that when one dies without God, he goes on in his sinfulness (but worse) until he is so tired/sick of it, he cries out to God our Saviour?

I believe it is also harmful to be anticipating catastrophe, and I do not listen or worry about soothsayers pointing to this sign and that sign, but I carry on with my life, and try with effort and redoubling of effort to make my life one of dedication to following Christ in everything big and small, in service and in love, every fraction of a second - because He is worthy of it, and one "day" it will be the strongest desire in the heart of all desires - it will be everything to serve Him with everything.

:iagree: When I grew up, I always was anticipating a catastrophe, where we christian would barely make it, and when we (being tortured and threatened) succeeded in not denying Christ, we would inherit eternal life. The fruit of this thinking in my life was hopelessness, and I have always sought to understand the gospel in a way that would bring hope and a future!

About the issues being discussed earlier in this thread:
Concerning 'sleeping' / being in an unaware state OR being with Christ right away... I feel like both are true, yet our problem is the concept of 'time'. So when by example, grandpa dies, for us who are within time, he is asleep for a long time before Christ wakes him up. For him, outside of time, he wakes up immediately. Could it be that way?

Also Psalm 139 came to my mind, where it says:
Even if I make my bed in Sheol, You are there...

[lastpost]

I do apologise but I have more input on seeing Jesus.

Firstly, He said: "Where there are two or three gathered together in My Name, there am I among them" (Matt. 18:20). In my opinion this indicates His conscious omnipresent Form, and the effect that the desire to see and know Him has. Indeed, He comes to them. Sometimes, He will appear to an individual in a personal manifestation of His Presence Form - a form recognisable by an individual as being Christ (for instance, actually seeing and 'meeting' Christ in a form not dissimilar to how He appeared when on earth in human form).

Secondly, I believe that a follower of Christ is met by Jesus at their transition / resurrection / anastasis: "There be some standing here (those people to whom Jesus was speaking at the time), which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in His Kingdom" (Matt.16:28).

Thirdly, I believe in His actual return in something of His spiritual Glory in its manifested state where He shall be seen by all. This will only be when the spiritual vibrations of the earth have been purified enough by the thoughts, actions and deeds of man as he follows the way God has laid down for him to follow. This wonderful event shall only happen when there are enough people who desire with all their heart to see and know Him for Himself, quite simply, out of the love in their hearts: "...Ye shall not see me, until the time come when ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord" (Luke 13:35).

This happening is dependent upon man himself, and secular time has little or no part to play with regard to this supremely joyous and awesome event. In essence, this is not to do with dogma or doctrine; this is to do with real love, this is to do with human beings having hearts which are full of genuine, powerful, unconditional love, and therefore would not only welcome but yearn passionately to be with the Source of Love. Jesus Christ shall appear in form hitherto unimagined. But, before this happens, as the earth conditions become more spiritualised as time goes on, man shall witness many spiritual events, such as the more frequent appearances of the Bright Ones from the Christ Realms. Man shall work with those in the Spirit in a spirit of true co-operation, and thus further purify the conditions of the earth plane. Then, Christ shall come in a greater form that has hitherto been possible for humanity to witness, so "that in the fullness of times, he might gather together in one all things in Christ" (the Grand Consummation - Eph.1:10).

[Tom]

I agree with what you're saying about time, sis. I think dead souls are unseen by humans and figuratively sleeping, but of course they're always with God because all is out of God, through God, and into God (Romans 11:36). Even in our conscious state time can be distorted, and I think the dead will know nothing (Ecclesiastes 9:5) and therefore perceive no time until they're roused and immortalized regardless of how much time has passed while they're dead. So it will probably seem to those who die, when they are vivified, that no time has passed, but I don't believe the dead are in some other form of life. I think you're either dead or alive. We are living souls (Genesis 2:7). Scripture days souls die (Ezekiel 18:4,20). Satan says we don't (Genesis 3:4).

[Tom]

I think Matthew 16:28 refers to the vision they had on the mountain six days later. I don't believe our snatching away to meet Christ in the air or his return to Israel depends on man. I believe it's simply according to God's will.

[lastpost]

Yes, Tom, it's all according to God's Will as He has preordained the results.

[rosered]

lastpost
If he or she has been a faithful servant then he or she finds themselves taken to a beautiful Heavenly World to which they are accustomed spiritually; conversely, one continually committing evil, the constant violator of Divine Law, finds himself transported to a place worse than "life" (darkness or outer darkness) - he dies a physical death and now finds a far worse prospect, he is living a spiritual death - a second death, and here he must abide until the desire to rise out of the awful place he or she finds themselves in is strong enough to do so.

"Let the one who is doing harm continue to do harm; let the one who is vile continue to be vile; let the one who is righteous continue to live righteously; let the one who is holy continue to be holy".



Do you mean that when one dies without God, he goes on in his sinfulness (but worse) until he is so tired/sick of it, he cries out to God our Saviour?

abigail

Do you mean that when one dies without God, he goes on in his sinfulness (but worse) until he is so tired/sick of it, he cries out to God our Saviour?

   To  be honest with you Abigail , this is exactly how I was   so sin sick and miserable    and lost I cried out to God in my sinful state   begging  for His help  to change  me from  my own vileness  towards Him ,    in my mid twenties 

I believe its an awareness of our sinful state that always remains  in the body of death , and was Pauls cries  in Romans  7   of his condition and the old man of sin in each and everyone of us   undergoes ''the  body of death ''
If you read   Rev  22  in   the mindset of    knowing that all of us   that are flesh and blood  that is outside the city /and prone to sin and futility    and consider our moral bodies as good as dead already    by faith in Jesus Christ  [Abraham's  seed / father of faith ]  same as Abraham did   in Hebrews 11

You will look at Rev 22  considering   a different  perception         , the WORD OF GOD  is always   ready   for the reader   and is quickened by the Holy Spirit   as Words of Life   freely   to those whom  read the Book   for all time   I believe this is what   was spoken of when its said   the outward man is perishing/dead know nothing   and the inward man is renewed  day by day     , there is the  battle of dealing with the  unholy nature born in everyone  of the earthly  realm   [the flesh profits nothing ]  and the Holy nature that becomes the focus Looking to the Lord Jesus Christ   fulfilling the lack .   We have so much more than that of the old times past  and Paul says ,''without excuse ''   


10 Then the angel told me, "Do not ·keep secret [L seal; contrast 10:4] the words of prophecy in this ·book [scroll], because the time is near for all this to happen.


11 Let whoever is doing ·evil [wrong; harm] continue to do evil [wrong; harm; Dan. 12:10Many will be purified, made spotless and refined, but the wicked will continue to be wicked. None of the wicked will understand, but those who are wise will understand..]


Let whoever is ·unclean [vile; impure; filthy] continue to be ·unclean [vile; impure; filthy]. Let whoever is ·doing right [righteous; just] continue to do ·right [righteousness; justice]. Let whoever is holy continue to be holy."

12 "·Listen [L Look; Behold]! I am coming ·soon [quickly]!

·I will bring my reward with me [L and my reward is with me; Is. 40:10], and I will repay ·each one of you [L each person] for what you have done.

13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End [1:8; 21:6].

14 "·Blessed [Happy] are those who wash their robes [C an image of spiritual cleansing] so that they will receive the ·right [power; authority] to eat the fruit from the tree of life and may ·go through [enter] the gates into the city.


15 Outside the city are the ·evil people [L dogs], those who do ·evil magic [sorcery], who ·sin sexually [fornicate], who murder, who worship idols, and who love lies and tell lies.
 
Who is the outward  man   corrupt /unholy  and inward man incorruptible /holy  cannot be corrupted ,   in all of us
We look to Jesus the author and finisher of our faith

Without faith its impossible to please God     
    those whom are faithless    are  the robber  to Gods glory in the earth as it is in heaven

Two thieves on the Cross with Jesus Christ in the middle of the two   , one is  confessing his sin and  speaking truth  Jesus you are innocent   , asking Jesus to remember him  when He come into His Kingdom    and the Word of the Lord is  favorable toward Him  , the other   thief    never admits to wrong  and    ask for the sign , If you are the Son of God  get  yourself and me down from here   , there is never a mention of this thief again

The meaning to me is this ,    the old man perishes in his sins and the new man being remembered   in Christ , the  new member of His Body of believers

[rosered]

I think Matthew 16:28 refers to the vision they had on the mountain six days later. I don't believe our snatching away to meet Christ in the air or his return to Israel depends on man. I believe it's simply according to God's will.

"Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom." two thieves on the cross  to me ..

  I do believe its the Wisdom of God and those given His Wisdom to know His will     that flourishes   with living things  of Life  and  the wisdom of men  that perishes with the using  and comes to nothing     Tom , just my thoughts .

[lastpost]

Do you mean that when one dies without God, he goes on in his sinfulness (but worse) until he is so tired/sick of it, he cries out to God our Saviour?

Dear Abigail,

You may very well put it like that.

I'm restricted to stating a concept only, the Holy Spirit is essential to bring God's truth where the letter ends.

I believe that the Israelites had adopted a particular viewpoint of the afterlife, and Divine Spirit communion uses what is in the mind of the one who receives the message. It is pertinent for the cultural and spiritual state at the time. It is never more than can be taken in as it would be useless in its aim.

My view is that the Israelites were influenced by the eschatological notions of those around them and with whom they will have had dealings in trade etc. Sheol, in my mind took on some Greek characteristics of Hades (two states, Tartarus and Elysium type concepts) around New Testament times but that's another story.

I accept and follow Jesus Christ as my Saviour, and as you know, He said that anyone who believes in Him will never see death - and I take Him at His word. Continually sinning against the Christ brings the soul into a filthy and degenerated second death state as mentioned above - it simply cannot reside in purified spiritual conditions - and as "no eye hath seen" those purified spiritual conditions, we know for certain that those conditions are removed from anything the material earth conditions present to us. The sinner was spirtually dead in the flesh and they are spirtually dead again once the flesh has been dropped.

I believe that God speaks His truth to individuals in a unique way - it is truth, but it is truth from God's Spirit to that one person. Each person is unique and therefore their understanding is also unique. I hope this makes sense.

When the huge and immense Wheel of Truth turns, there is far too much for any of God's creatures to take in, and when one of His children wants to know something of Him with the deepest of desires, then He will throw off that truth to the individual - it is revelation for that one, to satisfy that need - it is between the individual child of God and God. It's something that cannot be given away to someone else as it wasn't meant for someone else.

I believe this is very much the case with the Seer in Revelation. What that Seer put down in script for others was but the outer truths given by God or Christ to him - the unique knowledge given to the Seer for him alone was far too personal and sacred to be given to others for whom it was never meant.

My personal belief is that there is not a state of non-consciousness, although a soul can habituate itself to a comatose state for a while - to me it goes against the grain of Christ and the Christ Spirit. It's like someone coming up to me and saying: "Excuse me but you are not alive because I do not believe you can be". I find such a belief "unnatural" (if I can use that word without it picking up too many New Testament attachments) and rather pointless - the Christ Life is important to Christ and He does not want a single second of it wasted.

I believe (and I can't really say it any other way, apologies) that that notion is a literalistic dogma created by sincere people who want to stick to literalistic interpretation of words which are meant to be taken in a spiritual way. But then that's another story for which, no doubt, many threads have been created.

Peace and again Peace.

[sheila]

 :thumbsup:  Rose.  two camps......the rock as a pillow for his head..and Jacobs ladder..........the wrestling all night with the

   angel...til victory is won and we are BLESSED.    Rev.   the camp of the Holy city He loves

     this child[saviour] shall be for a sign that is spoken against....the rising and falling of many in Israel

[sheila]

....and this...the soul that is sinning..it shall die[old outer man that perish]  who? is written in the dust? but our old fleshly man.

[sheila]

 the new spirit man in Christ rises..the old man of sin in us all falls.

     the earth shall bring forth briars and thorns=sin in our flesh-messengers of satan..that we be not overly exalted due

   to the revelation.   we shall judge angels..the fallen=thorns/sin in our flesh that is condemned.......messengers of death/condemnation

   the corrupt image all men bear......

     WHO? WILL DELIVER US FROM THIS BODY UNDERGOING THIS DEATH?  Thanks be to Jesus Christ..the Saviour of all men

   

[sheila]

  fire comes out of the midst[kingdom of heaven in your midst] and consumes the briars and thorns.

[Tom]

I don't believe Christ said, "shall never die." I think that's simply the way the King James translates "for the eon" which refers to the next eon, the Millennium, when believers will not die. Christ used the phrase "for the eon" many times in scripture, but I think it's misleading to translate it "never." An eon is a period of time with a beginning and an end. An eon is not endless time or no time. The King James chooses to translate it as both. That's one of the reasons I don't read the King James anymore. I think it's important to read an accurate translation to get the truth. I read the King James for many years, but I learned that the ancient text doesn't actually say some things that are in the King James. I know some people think the King James is the inspired written word of God. I believe the ancient original scripture was the inspired written word of God, but everything we have now is translation from imperfect copies. I don't believe there is an infallible translation because something is always lost in translation, but I think we need to find what we think is the most accurate translation by comparing it with the ancient text. I switched to Young's Literal Translation when I became aware of problems with the King James Version, and then I switched to the Concordant Version when I became aware of a few problems with Young's Literal Translation. There are a few things about the Concordant Version that bug me too, but I haven't found anything that distorts doctrine. That's why I read it now, and I have to speak up when folks quote the King James about things that I think do distort doctrine. Most of us are here because we know orthodox theology distorts the evangel. I realize the debate about whether we're dead or alive when we're dead doesn't really affect the good news that Christ's blood on the cross reconciles all on earth and in the heavens, but the concept of the inherent immortality of the soul affects the understanding of resurrection. So it is something people are curious about because I think the state of death is misunderstood due to that concept. I personally think it's simple because I believe you're either dead or alive, but I understand why other folks disagree. I'm just offering my perspective.

I believe, when Christ said the following, he meant that even though believers may die, they will be made alive and not die again in the next eon.

"I am the Resurrection and the Life. He who is believing in Me, even if he should be dying, shall be living. And everyone who is living and believing in Me, should by no means be dying for the eon." (John 11:25,26)

I don't believe that means that believers who die are still alive.

See the attachment for a comparison of the Concordant Version, the King James Version, Young's Literal Translation, an ultra-literal translation, and the Greek text.

[attachment deleted by admin]

[CHB]

(Col. 1:18) who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead

It says that Christ was "the firstborn from the dead". My understanding of this is, Christ was the first one that rose from the grave. 

If this is true then it was after the resurrection of Christ that people went to be with the Lord, is this right? If this is true then Moses and Elijah really wasn't with Christ in the transfiguration?

Anyone got any thoughts on this?

CHB

[Tom]

That was a vision (Matthew 17:9).

[sheila]

  vision is to see....that vision was a spiritual reality.....not given to those without eyes to see or ears to hear.

   if God gives us a vision..it is more real than any veil /or illusion of this world.  my  :2c:

[sheila]

people forget..the Lamb was slaughtered before the founding of this world.  before Abraham..I was........

    I liken it to those who are in the eternal and thier manifestation in the stream of time...a time warp if you will percieve of us

  that have not entered the eternal/immortal TODAY of Heaven.

[sheila]

 John 17;5  and now Father,glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began....

[sheila]

Jesus is the pattern son......in His image we are ....about His death..He spoke like this.........I am returning unto the father..and more then

that...He said..from now on call no man your father..for your father is in Heaven. THE SPIRIT RETURNS UNTO GOD WHO GIVE IT......

.  and the flesh returns unto the  dust of the earth from which it come.

  the little children were partakers of flesh and blood..and likewise He partook...............He is the way...the truth..the life!!!!!!!