those in Sheol getting what they dished out to others?

[DavidFord]

I believe people in sheol are sleeping, awaiting resurrection. .... There is no penalty phase.... It is for the purpose of awakening and transformation that God disciplines the wicked

Do you think people in Hades "are sleeping"?
Luke 16 (DLNT)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke+16&version=DLNT
....And the rich man also died and was buried. 23 And having lifted-up his eyes in Hades while being in torments, he sees Abraham from a-distance, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 And he, having called, said, 'Father Abraham, have-mercy-on me and send Lazarus in order that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool-off my tongue, because I am suffering-pain in this flame'. .... warn them in order that they also might not come to this place of torment'.

Do you think the rich man was:  in Hades?  in Sheol?  sleeping?  experiencing discipline?

Luke 16 (based on Younan, from Aramaic), http://www.dukhrana.com
19. Now there was a certain rich man, and he would wear purple and linen.
And everyday he would luxuriously make merry.
20. And there was a certain poor man whose name (was) Lazar.
And he would lay at the gate of that rich man, while being afflicted with sores.
21. And he was longing to fill his stomach
from the crumbs that fell from the table of that rich man.
But even the dogs would come lick his sores.
22. And now this happened:
that poor man died and the angels carried him to the bosom of Awraham,
and also that rich man died and was buried.

23. And while he was tormented in Sheol,
he lifted up his eyes and gazed from afar upon Awraham and upon Lazar at his bosom.
24. And he cried out in a loud voice and said,
'Abbi [my father] Awraham, have compassion on me
and send to Lazar that he may dip the tip (of) his finger in water
and to moisten my tongue for me,
for behold, I'm tormented in this flame!'
25. Awraham said to him,
'My son, remember that you received your good things during your life,
and Lazar his bad things.
And now behold, he is comfortable here
and you are tormented.
26. Besides all these things, a great chasm is placed between you and us
so that those who desire to pass over from here to you are not able,
and neither (are) those from there (able) to pass over to us.'

27. He said to him,
'If so, I beseech you Abbi
that you send him to Abbi's house,
28. for I have five brothers.
Let him go witness (to) them
that they not also come to this place of torment.'
29. Awraham said to him,
'They have Moshe and the nabia [prophets]--
let them hear them.'
30. But he said to him,
'No Abbi Awraham,
but if a man from the dead should go to them,
they will repent.'
31. Awraham said to him,
'If they do not listen to Moshe and to the nabia,
if a man should rise from the dead,
they would also not believe him.'"

[DavidFord]

Acts chapter 2
"'The Lord said to my Lord,
"Sit at my right hand,
35until I make your enemies your footstool."'
36Let all the house of Israel therefore know for certain that God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified."
37Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Brothers, what shall we do?" 38And Peter said to them, "Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself." 40And with many other words he bore witness and continued to exhort them, saying, "Save yourselves from this crooked generation."
....
Hebrews 4:12-16
12For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart. 13And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are open and laid bare to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do.
All things are open to Him with whom we have to do. All things are disposed for the purpose of reconciling all, gathering all things into one in Christ so that God may be all in all. The mysteries of the scriptures do not render well for literalists, which is exactly how the Logos planned it to be

Acts 2 (based on Younan), http://www.dukhrana.com
34-35. For it was not Dawid (that) did ascend into Heaven, because he said,
MrYa [Master YHWH] said to Mari [my Lord],
Sit yourself at my right hand,
until I place your enemies (as) a footstool for your feet'.'
36. Certainly, therefore, let all the house of Israel know that Allaha has made this Yeshua, whom you crucified, MrYa [Master YHWH] and Meshikha [Messiah/ Annointed One]."

37. And when they heard these things they were touched in their hearts, and they said to Shimon and the rest of the Shelikha [Apostles], "What should we do, our brothers?" 38. Shimon said to them, "Repent and be baptized each of you in the name of MrYa Yeshua for the forgiveness of sins, that you may receive the gift of the Rukha d'Qudsha [Spirit of Holiness]. 39. For the promise was to you and to your children and to all those who are far away, he whom Allaha will call them." 40. And with many other words he would witness to them and he would beseech them while saying, "Save (yourselves) from this perverse generation."

Hebrews 4:12-16 (from Aramaic), http://www.dukhrana.com
12 (Etheridge) For living is the Word of Aloha, and all-acting, and more penetrating than a two-edged sword [The sword of two mouths] , and entereth to the separation of the soul and the spirit, and of the joints, and of the marrow, and the bones, and discerneth the reasonings and counsel of the heart.
13 (Murdock) neither is there any creature, which is concealed from before him; but every thing is naked and manifest before his eyes, to whom we are to give account.
14 (Etheridge) Therefore having such a great High Priest, Jeshu Meshiha, the Son of Aloha, who hath ascended to heaven, let us persevere in the confession of him.
15 (Murdock) For we have not a high priest, who cannot sympathize with our infirmity; but [one] who was tempted in all respects like us, aside from sin.
16 (Etheridge) Let us therefore approach with confidence [With revealed eye] to the throne of his grace, that we may receive mercy [Mercies] , and find grace for help in the time of affliction.

[eaglesway]

Sheol is the abode of all the dead. Sleep, to me, is a metaphor for the unknown state in sheol. sheol is hidden from view for us, so I make no hard statement about that state. As to whether Jesus' parable about the beggar and the rich man- I am not certain that that is a definition of the state of the dead in sheol at all, since it dissent seem to line up with a lot of what the scriptures say about the dead., but I have no axe to grind either way. According to Romans 2 no one will receive judgment until they stand before the throne of Christ.

For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; 13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.


Perhaps when we die, as when we go to sleep, we are not conscious of the passing of time, awakening at the judgment seat of Christ. This state possibly, "out of time" in a holding pattern, so to speak. I have no ax to grind about it because I don't think the scriptures define it clearly, on purpose. Some mysteries are meant to remain mysteries, which is why Jesus said

This is why I speak to them in parables: "Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand." Mt 13;10

"So was fulfilled what was spoken through the prophet: "I will open my mouth in parables, I will utter things hidden since the creation of the world." Mt 13:35

[CST]

I don't recall reading anything about Satan "cooking and/or eating God's angels."  I bet Satan can take the form of a dragon.  Praying Medic once saw a dragon when praying against the Orphan Spirit.  The devil can appear as a seemingly-good thing:

That question wasn't meant for you so for you to try to answer it is irrelevant. The current Western image of a dragon is a large winged lizard that breaths fire and eats people. My reference was to this because I feel that to perceive Satan in this way is obviously ridiculous. 'Dragon' however may not be the best translation.

But that's the problem. It's easy to say 'satan' doesn't mean 'Satan' whenever it doesn't suit you so what's to stop you saying 'satan' never means 'Satan?

Anyone can say anything. Context often provides insight as to how a word is best understood.  Sometimes people will disagree about a word's meaning.  Do you agree with me that God conversed with a malicious, conscious entity about Job?

No!

[DavidFord]

The current Western image of a dragon is a large winged lizard that breaths fire and eats people. My reference was to this because I feel that to perceive Satan in this way is obviously ridiculous. 'Dragon' however may not be the best translation.

Maybe monster or serpent are better translations.

Jeremiah 51:34
https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/Jeremiah%2051:34
ESV   "Nebuchadnezzar the king of Babylon has devoured me; he has crushed me; he has made me an empty vessel; he has swallowed me like a monster; he has filled his stomach with my delicacies; he has rinsed me out.    ....
HCSB   "Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon has devoured me; he has crushed me. He has set me aside like an empty dish; he has swallowed me like a sea monster; he filled his belly with my delicacies; he has vomited me out," ....
NIV   "Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon has devoured us, he has thrown us into confusion, he has made us an empty jar. Like a serpent he has swallowed us and filled his stomach with our delicacies, and then has spewed us out.  ....
YLT   Devoured us, crushed us, hath Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon, He hath set us [as] an empty vessel, He hath swallowed us as a dragon, He hath filled his belly with my dainties, He hath driven us away.

Do you agree with me that following a 40-day fast, Jesus was tested by a malicious, conscious entity?  With who or what did Jesus have this conversation?:

Mt 4 (from Aramaic, based on Paul Younan), http://dukhrana.com
1. Then Yeshua was taken by the Rukha d'Qudsha [Spirit of Holiness] to the desert to be tempted by Akelqartza [the Accuser/ Slanderer/ Backbiter]. 2. And he fasted forty days and forty nights, and after which he hungered. 3. And he that was tempting approached and said to him, "If you (are) the Son of Allaha, say to these rocks, 'Become bread.'" 4. And he answered and said,
"(It) is written that,
'barnasha [man] does not live by bread alone,
but by all the words that proceed from the mouth of Allaha.'"
5. Then Akelqartza took him to the holy medintha [city] and raised him upon the edge of the temple 6. and said to him, "If you (are) the Son of Allaha, cast yourself down, for it is written that,
'His angels He commands concerning you,
and upon their hands they will bear you up,
that your foot should not strike upon a rock'."
7. Yeshua said to him,
"Again, it is written that,
'you shall not test MrYa [Master YHWH] Allahak [your Allaha].'"
8. Again Akelqartza took him to a tuora [mountain] that (was) very high and showed him all the kingdoms of the ailma [world] and shubkhen [their glory], 9. and said to him, "All these I (will) give to you if you will fall (and) thesagud [worship] me." 10. Then Yeshua said to him,
"Leave Satana [Adversary], for it is written that,
'thesagud [you shall worship] MrYa Allahak,
and Him alone thepalukh [you shall serve].'"
11. Then Akelqartza left him and behold, malaka [angels] approached and were ministering to him.

[DavidFord]

As to whether Jesus' parable about the beggar and the rich man- I am not certain that that is a definition of the state of the dead in sheol at all, since it dissent seem to line up with a lot of what the scriptures say about the dead., but I have no axe to grind either way. According to Romans 2 no one will receive judgment until they stand before the throne of Christ.

In Aramaic, Jesus' story mentions sheol.  In Greek, the story mentions hades.
"it dissent seem to line up with a lot of what the scriptures say about the dead"
What are 3 of the scriptures you're thinking of?

Romans 2 (NKJV)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=romans+2&version=NKJV
3 And do you think this, O man, you who judge those practicing such things, and doing the same, that you will escape the judgment of God? 4 Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance? 5 But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
6 who "will render to each one according to his deeds":
7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath,
9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil,
of the Jew first and also of the Greek;
10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good,
to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
11 For there is no partiality with God.

Do you think evildoers open themselves up to harm and suffering-- well before "they stand before the throne of Christ"-- because of their evildoing?

Romans 1
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+1&version=NKJV
26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. 27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.

[DavidFord]

Perhaps when we die, as when we go to sleep, we are not conscious of the passing of time, awakening at the judgment seat of Christ.

Do you think God "knows how.... to reserve the unjust under punishment for the day of judgment"?

2 Peter 2 (NKJV)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Peter+2&version=NKJV
4 For if God....
9 then the Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of temptations and to reserve the unjust under punishment for the day of judgment, 10 and especially those who walk according to the flesh in the lust of uncleanness and despise authority.  ....

Do you agree with me that:
at one point, "the gospel was preached also to those who are dead"?
at one point, Jesus the Messiah "preached to the souls imprisoned in Sheol"?

https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?qs_version=NKJV&quicksearch=preach&begin=67&end=67&limit=500
1 Peter 3:19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison,
1 Peter 4:6 For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

1Peter 3:18 (from Aramaic), http://dukhrana.com
(Etheridge) Because the Meshiha also once died on account of sins, the just on account of sinners, that he might bring [Or, present.] us unto Aloha. And dead in the body and alive in the Spirit,
(Murdock) For the Messiah also once died for our sins, the righteous for sinners; that he might bring you to God. And he died in body, but lived in spirit.

1Peter 3:19
(Etheridge) he preached unto those souls who were held in sheul,
(Lamsa) And he preached to the souls imprisoned in Sheol;

1Peter 3:20
(Etheridge) those who before were disobedient in the days of Nuch;[Or, Nooch.] while the long-suffering of Aloha commanded that he should make the ark, upon the hope of their conversion, and eight souls only entered therein, and were saved in the waters.
(Murdock) which were formerly disobedient, in the days of Noah, when the long suffering of God commanded an ark to be made, in hope of their repentance; and eight souls only entered into it, and were kept alive in the waters.

[CST]

The current Western image of a dragon is a large winged lizard that breaths fire and eats people. My reference was to this because I feel that to perceive Satan in this way is obviously ridiculous. 'Dragon' however may not be the best translation.

Maybe monster or serpent are better translations.

Jeremiah 51:34
https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/Jeremiah%2051:34
ESV   "Nebuchadnezzar the king of Babylon has devoured me; he has crushed me; he has made me an empty vessel; he has swallowed me like a monster; he has filled his stomach with my delicacies; he has rinsed me out.    ....
HCSB   "Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon has devoured me; he has crushed me. He has set me aside like an empty dish; he has swallowed me like a sea monster; he filled his belly with my delicacies; he has vomited me out," ....
NIV   "Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon has devoured us, he has thrown us into confusion, he has made us an empty jar. Like a serpent he has swallowed us and filled his stomach with our delicacies, and then has spewed us out.  ....
YLT   Devoured us, crushed us, hath Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon, He hath set us [as] an empty vessel, He hath swallowed us as a dragon, He hath filled his belly with my dainties, He hath driven us away.

Do you agree with me that following a 40-day fast, Jesus was tested by a malicious, conscious entity?  With who or what did Jesus have this conversation?:

Mt 4 (from Aramaic, based on Paul Younan), http://dukhrana.com
1. Then Yeshua was taken by the Rukha d'Qudsha [Spirit of Holiness] to the desert to be tempted by Akelqartza [the Accuser/ Slanderer/ Backbiter]. 2. And he fasted forty days and forty nights, and after which he hungered. 3. And he that was tempting approached and said to him, "If you (are) the Son of Allaha, say to these rocks, 'Become bread.'" 4. And he answered and said,
"(It) is written that,
'barnasha [man] does not live by bread alone,
but by all the words that proceed from the mouth of Allaha.'"
5. Then Akelqartza took him to the holy medintha [city] and raised him upon the edge of the temple 6. and said to him, "If you (are) the Son of Allaha, cast yourself down, for it is written that,
'His angels He commands concerning you,
and upon their hands they will bear you up,
that your foot should not strike upon a rock'."
7. Yeshua said to him,
"Again, it is written that,
'you shall not test MrYa [Master YHWH] Allahak [your Allaha].'"
8. Again Akelqartza took him to a tuora [mountain] that (was) very high and showed him all the kingdoms of the ailma [world] and shubkhen [their glory], 9. and said to him, "All these I (will) give to you if you will fall (and) thesagud [worship] me." 10. Then Yeshua said to him,
"Leave Satana [Adversary], for it is written that,
'thesagud [you shall worship] MrYa Allahak,
and Him alone thepalukh [you shall serve].'"
11. Then Akelqartza left him and behold, malaka [angels] approached and were ministering to him.

Not really, there'd be utterly different translations made me cry, 'serpent' is vague and 'monster' gives no information at all. So no I don't think those words are helpful. Satan at the the time (allow his existence for the moment) was an angel in rebellion and would have looked like every other angel.

I've already answer the other question.

[DavidFord]

Right, continuing.
I've said this before somewhere but, to me, in the book of Job, Satan represents Job's enemies. These are also his (false) friends who are increasingly unhelpful to him during the course of the book. These people are envious of Job and have brought complaints about him to God. Satan represents these complaints. I have come to this conclusion because Satan disappears from the text once he's all but got his way. After this the three 'friends' appear and try to get Job to deny his righteousness and do all sorts of other things he shouldn't do. Basically the sort of things Satan wants Job to do. Satan never appears again but the 'friends' are upbraided by God at the end. Hence why I suspect they are actually the same.

"to me, in the book of Job, Satan represents Job's enemies. These are also his (false) friends"
If I substitute "Job's (false) friends" for "Satan" in the Bible passages below, the passages wouldn't make sense to me.  It seems to me that Satan (not Job's false friends) killed almost all of Job's servants by getting the Sabeans and Chaldeans to attack, and by having fire fall from heaven to burn many up, and Satan (not Job's false friends) had all of Job's children killed from a great wind that collapsed a house, and Satan (not Job's false friends) afflicted Job with painful boils.

Job 1 (NKJV)
9 So Satan answered the Lord and said, "Does Job fear God for nothing? 10 Have You not made a hedge around him, around his household, and around all that he has on every side? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions have increased in the land. 11 But now, stretch out Your hand and touch all that he has, and he will surely curse You to Your face!"
12 And the Lord said to Satan, "Behold, all that he has is in your power; only do not lay a hand on his person."
So Satan went out from the presence of the Lord.
13 Now there was a day when his sons and daughters were eating and drinking wine in their oldest brother's house; 14 and a messenger came to Job and said, "The oxen were plowing and the donkeys feeding beside them, 15 when the Sabeans raided them and took them away—indeed they have killed the servants with the edge of the sword; and I alone have escaped to tell you!"
16 While he was still speaking, another also came and said, "The fire of God fell from heaven and burned up the sheep and the servants, and consumed them; and I alone have escaped to tell you!"
17 While he was still speaking, another also came and said, "The Chaldeans formed three bands, raided the camels and took them away, yes, and killed the servants with the edge of the sword; and I alone have escaped to tell you!"
18 While he was still speaking, another also came and said, "Your sons and daughters were eating and drinking wine in their oldest brother's house, 19 and suddenly a great wind came from across the wilderness and struck the four corners of the house, and it fell on the young people, and they are dead; and I alone have escaped to tell you!"
20 Then Job arose, tore his robe, and shaved his head; and he fell to the ground and worshiped. 21 And he said:
"Naked I came from my mother's womb,
And naked shall I return there.
The Lord gave, and the Lord has taken away;
Blessed be the name of the Lord."
22 In all this Job did not sin nor charge God with wrong.

Job 2
4 So Satan answered the Lord and said, "Skin for skin! Yes, all that a man has he will give for his life. 5 But stretch out Your hand now, and touch his bone and his flesh, and he will surely curse You to Your face!"
6 And the Lord said to Satan, "Behold, he is in your hand, but spare his life."
7 So Satan went out from the presence of the Lord, and struck Job with painful boils from the sole of his foot to the crown of his head.

[DavidFord]

Oh, my! Finish the quote:
'And He said to them, I saw Satan fall like lightening from heaven. Behold, I have given you authority to tread upon serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy; and nothing shall hurt you. Nevertheless do not rejoice in this, that the spirits are subject to you; but rejoice that your names are written in heaven."
I suspect the serpents and scorpions may well not be literal here. To go from demons to serpents and scorpions seems a bit of a downward step. Even I can tread on and crush scorpions and serpents if I'm quick enough but I think it safer not to try. But note the part at the end I have highlighted, I think it's quite curious that a. Jesus has them prioritise there place in heaven in their rejoicing and b. when Jesus gives His answer He doesn't say 'demons' He says 'spirits'. Obviously a much broader term. Of course, Jesus does use the word demons but here He appears to be correcting the disciples and the fact He doesn't use the word 'demons' is curious.

In the Aramaic for the passage, Jesus does use 'demons':

Luke 10 (from Aramaic, based on Younan), http://dukhrana.com
17. And those seventy whom he had sent returned with great joy and said to him, "Maran [our Lord], even shada [demons] were subject to us by your name!" 18. And he said to them,
"I did see him, Satana, falling like lightning from heaven.
19. Behold I give shultana [authority] to you
to be tread(ing) on snakes and scorpions and all the power of the enemy,
and nothing will harm you.
20. Nevertheless, do not rejoice in this, d'shada [that demons] are subject to you,
rather be glad that your names are written in heaven."

interlinear search for:  luk 10:20
http://aramaicdb.lightofword.org/index.php/en/interlinear-search

Do you think 'unclean spirits' are demons?

search of YLT for:  unclean spirits
https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=unclean+spirits&version=YLT&resultspp=500
Matthew 12:43-45
`And, when the unclean spirit may go forth from the man, it doth walk through dry places seeking rest, and doth not find; then it saith, I will turn back to my house whence I came forth; and having come, it findeth [it] unoccupied, swept, and adorned: then doth it go, and take with itself seven other spirits more evil than itself, and having gone in they dwell there, and the last of that man doth become worse than the first; so shall it be also to this evil generation.'
Matthew 10:1 And having called to him his twelve disciples, he gave to them power over unclean spirits, so as to be casting them out, and to be healing every sickness, and every malady.
Mark 1:27 and they were all amazed, so as to reason among themselves, saying, `What is this? what new teaching [is] this? that with authority also the unclean spirits he commandeth, and they obey him!'
Mark 3:11 and the unclean spirits, when they were seeing him, were falling down before him, and were crying, saying -- `Thou art the Son of God;'
Mark 5:13 and immediately Jesus gave them leave, and having come forth, the unclean spirits did enter into the swine, and the herd did rush down the steep place to the sea -- and they were about two thousand -- and they were choked in the sea.
Mark 6:7 and he doth call near the twelve, and he began to send them forth two by two, and he was giving them power over the unclean spirits,
Luke 4:36 and amazement came upon all, and they were speaking together, with one another, saying, `What [is] this word, that with authority and power he doth command the unclean spirits, and they come forth?'
Luke 6:18 and those harassed by unclean spirits, and they were healed,
Acts 5:16 and there were coming together also the people of the cities round about to Jerusalem, bearing ailing persons, and those harassed by unclean spirits -- who were all healed.
Acts 8:7 for unclean spirits came forth from many who were possessed, crying with a loud voice, and many who have been paralytic and lame were healed,
Revelation 16:13 and I saw [come] out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet, three unclean spirits like frogs --

[DavidFord]

Do you believe Satan is an actual dragon? What is an actual dragon doing in heaven, there are none on Earth. The dragon is symbolic of something so is Satan. It doesn't mean Satan is either a literal dragon or anything you might think he is.

Satan isn't "an actual dragon," nor is he an actual lion, nor an actual snake.  But he can drastically change appearance, and can act in a dragon-like, lion-like, and snake-like manner.

(from Aramaic, Jan Magiera)
http://aramaicdb.lightofword.org/index.php/en/english-word-search
1Pe 5:8   Be watchful and remember, because your enemy, Satan, roars as a lion and walks about and seeks whom he may swallow.
2Co 11:3   But I fear, that even as the serpent lead Eve astray by his deceit, so your minds will be corrupted from the simplicity that is to Christ.
Rev 12:9   And the great dragon was thrown out, that chief serpent, who is called the Accuser and Satan, who deceived the whole earth. And he was thrown out on the earth and his angels were thrown out with him.

"dragon... there are none on Earth"
Komodo Dragon - Epic Wildlife
https://youtu.be/WCjNQqRdv7U

"Why would Jesus need to distribute drugs when the power of God worked perfectly well?"
Jesus had to make 2 attempts to get a blind man seeing properly.  Jesus struggled a little in casting the demons out of the demon-oppressed guy that lived in the cemetary.

"The Bible.... is, however, concerned with our spiritual welfare and some equip us for maintaining is sufficiently. A lack of proper information on demons is a pretty big lack to me."
Many people are unnecessarily suffering from demons that promote disease and mayhem.  Agreed, "a lack of proper information on demons"-- and how to dislodge them-- "is a pretty big lack" among far too many people.

do a control-f/ find for:  mimic
to get to:   Unbound: Expelling the Influence of Demons
http://podbay.fm/show/665532730

"If the fallen angels are in Tartarus, they are somewhere different from the dead in Sheol/Hades aren't they? So I would expect some difference in the state they are in. But obviously your Aramaic doesn't say that, so you don't. Another reason to suspect that the Bible perhaps should properly be in Greek because the Aramaic appears to have no equivalent to 'Tartarus'"

Yes, "if the fallen angels are in Tartarus, they are somewhere different from the dead in Sheol/Hades."  Do you think Tartarus exists?

2 Peter 2:4 (Young's Literal Translation)
https://biblehub.com/ylt/2_peter/2.htm
For if God messengers who sinned did not spare, but with chains of thick gloom, having cast [them] down to Tartarus, did deliver [them] to judgment, having been reserved,

2 Peter 2:4 (Aramaic Bible in Plain English)
https://biblehub.com/aramaic-plain-english/2_peter/2.htm
And if God did not spare the Angels who sinned, but cast them down in chains of darkness into the lowest depths and handed them over to be kept for the judgment of torment,

_The Original Aramaic New Testament in Plain English- with Psalms & Proverbs_ 7th edition (2012), 610pp. On 559:
Greek has ... -"Tatarused", "Cast into Tartarus"?  - a participle from "Tartarus" not found anywhere else in Greek literature.  The noun form - "T..." is found in The LXX (Job 40:20) where it refers to "the quadrapeds in _the deep_".  This use of the noun is much more in keeping with the meaning of the Aramaic in this verse ... (tekhtytha) - "the depths".

But I don't believe in UR for demons because demons are always presented as being utterly evil and cannot be redeemed. It is their nature to be evil and they take absolute pleasure from causing harm to humans and only from causing pain to humans. It is what they exist for and I have a major moral problem with this.

"demons are always presented as being utterly evil"
Was there ever any point at which the beings now called demons _weren't_ "utterly evil"?

Colossians 1:16 (NKJV)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Colossians+1:16&version=NKJV
For by Him all things were created
that are in heaven and that are on earth,
visible and invisible,
whether thrones or dominions
or principalities or powers.
All things were created through Him and for Him.

[marie glen]

"tartarus" I believe began as simply deepest darkness (state of) but then evolved into Greek myth.. Just a theory, I have not researched it. Same with hades, meant hidden/gone/not seen.. But became Greek myth for a level of an afterlife..

Deepest darkness, locked into because they cannot now change their course toward perfection, what with being imperfect, and locked into darkness, so chained and reserved in that state for judgment ('day').. imo. :Peace2:

Was there ever any point at which the beings now called demons _weren't_ "utterly evil"?

If always evil, where did the angels "fall" from? As we know, it takes all verses..

If the adversary is merely the carnal character within us all.. Why all the metaphor to describe something already openly described?

If there's no belief in rebel angels? Is there belief in angels? They are fully programmed, but man was not? If so, would there be rationality?

Are angels beings? with thought and reaction? Or are they "winds" only? Thoughts? And if so, from whence came evil thoughts? From what source? This to me presents a big problem.

Remedied by the idea of thinking ability including the ability of choice. Doesn't it? Does rationality, naturally, include within it (sooner or later  /ultimately) the ability to make choices?

If no.. why or how not?

So say you create a perfect universe. Now what?? Flowers, trees, plants.. animals.. no dog eat dog..

Can you, or how can you, create thinking, reasoning, learning beings?

And keep everything perfect? Can it be done? How can it be done, and still have rational, thinking, pondering, creative beings, with true power of thought? Will very limited power of thought work? Could that be perfect? "Good"? ...Satisfying to the creator?

   :Peace2: :2c:

[lastpost]

Some mysteries are meant to remain mysteries, which is why Jesus said

This is why I speak to them in parables: "Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand." Mt 13;10

In my view, understanding that we know very little about everything Divine in its immense totality, is an absolute pre-requisite to learning more about God.

Yet, understanding (comprehension) that is appropriate to this stage of being (the tabernacle of the flesh) is given to those who sincerely and humbly ask, seek and knock (Matthew 7:7-8).

Therefore, mysteries remain mysteries for some perhaps, but to others it is given to know:

And the disciples came up and said to him, Why speakest thou to them in parables?

And he answering said to them, Because to you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of the heavens, but to them it is not given...

Matthew 13:10-11

[DavidFord]

Are angels beings? with thought and reaction? Or are they "winds" only?

Yes; yes; no.

Luke 1 (from Aramaic, based on Younan), http://dukhrana.com
11. And a malaka [messenger] of MrYa [Master YHWH] who stood at the right of the altar of incense appeared to him-- to Zakharyah. 12. And when Zakharyah saw him he was dumbfounded and fear fell upon him. 13. And the malaka said to him,
"Do not have fear Zakharyah,
because your prayer has been heard
and your wife Elishwa will bear you a son,
and you will call his name Yukhanan.
14. And you will have joy and gladness
and many will rejoice at his birth.
15. For he will be great before MrYa.
And he will not drink shakra [strong drink] and wine,
and he will be filled with the Rukha d'Qudsha [Spirit of Holiness]
while he is in the womb of his mother.
16. And he will turn many of the sons of Israel to MrYa Allahuon [their Allaha].
17. And he will go before Him in the rukha and in the might of Eliyah the nabia [prophet], that he might
turn the heart of the fathers unto the children,
and those that are not obedient to the knowledge of the just,
and he will prepare a perfect people for MrYa."
18. And Zakharyah said to the malaka, "How should I understand this, for I'm an elderly man and my wife, she is many in her days?" 19. And the malaka answered and said to him, "Ena-na [I am] Gawriel who stands before Allaha, and I have been sent to speak with you and to declare these things. 20. Now you will be dumb and you will not be able to speak until the day that these things happen, because you did not believe these my words which will be fulfilled in their time."

Acts 12 (based on Younan)
5. And as Shimon was watched in prison, a constant prayer was offered by the eidta [congregation] to Allaha for his sake. 6. And in it-- in that very night toward the dawn-- he [Herod] was preparing to deliver him as Shimon was sleeping among two soldiers and he was bound by two chains and others were guarding the gate of the prison. 7. A malaka of MrYa stood above from him, and a nuhra [light] shined in all the building. And he struck him on his side and woke him and said to him, "Arise quickly!" And the chains fell from his hands. 8. And the malaka said to him, "Gird up your loins and put on your sandals." And he did so, and again he said to him, "Wrap (yourself with) your garment and come after me." 9. And he went out and he was following after him while he was not realizing that it was true that (it) was happening by the malaka, for he was thinking that he was seeing a vision. 10. And after they passed the first watch and the second, they came all the way to the gate of iron. And (it) was opened to them of its own will. And after they went out and passed one street, the malaka departed from his presence. 11. Then Shimon realized and said,
"Now I know in truth that MrYa sent malakeh [His angel] and freed me from the hand of the malka [king] Herodus and from the thing which the Yehudeans had planned against me."

[DavidFord]

Jesus teaches that: "...every one who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart." (Matthew 5:28) This is some sort of hyperbole, surely?

Maybe, and maybe not.  Perhaps it's the case that people can influence and do things in the spiritual world with their imaginations.  Perhaps a married guy imagining having sex with someone not his wife results in him actually having sex with something not his wife-- not in the physical realm, but in the spiritual realm.  Healy saw a young guy's thoughts of mentally stripping a female singer.

Blake Healy, _The Veil: An Invitation to the Unseen Realm_
https://www.amazon.com/Veil-Invitation-Unseen-Realm/dp/1629994901/

[DavidFord]

Do you agree with me that following a 40-day fast, Jesus was tested by a malicious, conscious entity?  With who or what did Jesus have this conversation?:
Mt 4 (from Aramaic, based on Paul Younan), http://dukhrana.com

I've already answer the other question.

In looking through your posts, the closest to an answer I could find was this:
"As I said i don't believe in Satan, Jesus is using a text from Isaiah which usually refers to the King of Babylon to make a point about the defeat of evil. We know now that 'Heaven' isn't actually, literally 'up there', we've sent spaceships 'up there' and not found Heaven so it is not literally possible for Satan to fall from Heaven to Earth like that Jesus is speaking in parables as usual you need to discern what He is actually saying."

You don't think Satan exists:  "As I said i don't believe in Satan."
I think that following a 40-day fast, Jesus was tested by a malicious, conscious entity, aka Satan.  I think Jesus had the conversation below with Satan:

Mt 4 (from Aramaic, based on Paul Younan), http://dukhrana.com
1. Then Yeshua was taken by the Rukha d'Qudsha [Spirit of Holiness] to the desert to be tempted by Akelqartza [the Accuser/ Slanderer/ Backbiter]. 2. And he fasted forty days and forty nights, and after which he hungered. 3. And he that was tempting approached and said to him, "If you (are) the Son of Allaha, say to these rocks, 'Become bread.'" 4. And he answered and said,
"(It) is written that,
'barnasha [man] does not live by bread alone,
but by all the words that proceed from the mouth of Allaha.'"
5. Then Akelqartza took him to the holy medintha [city] and raised him upon the edge of the temple 6. and said to him, "If you (are) the Son of Allaha, cast yourself down, for it is written that,
'His angels He commands concerning you,
and upon their hands they will bear you up,
that your foot should not strike upon a rock'."
7. Yeshua said to him,
"Again, it is written that,
'you shall not test MrYa [Master YHWH] Allahak [your Allaha].'"
8. Again Akelqartza took him to a tuora [mountain] that (was) very high and showed him all the kingdoms of the ailma [world] and shubkhen [their glory], 9. and said to him, "All these I (will) give to you if you will fall (and) thesagud [worship] me." 10. Then Yeshua said to him,
"Leave Satana [Adversary], for it is written that,
'thesagud [you shall worship] MrYa Allahak,
and Him alone thepalukh [you shall serve].'"
11. Then Akelqartza left him and behold, malaka [angels] approached and were ministering to him.

You don't think Satan exists.  Do you think malicious, conscious entities called 'demons' exist?

[DavidFord]

In my view, understanding that we know very little about everything Divine in its immense totality, is an absolute pre-requisite to learning more about God.
Yet, understanding (comprehension) that is appropriate to this stage of being (the tabernacle of the flesh) is given to those who sincerely and humbly ask, seek and knock (Matthew 7:7-8).
Therefore, mysteries remain mysteries for some perhaps, but to others it is given to know:
And the disciples came up and said to him, Why speakest thou to them in parables?
And he answering said to them, Because to you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of the heavens, but to them it is not given...
Matthew 13:10-11

http://www.quotationspage.com/quote/30297.html
I do not know what I may appear to the world; but to myself I seem to have been only like a boy playing on the seashore, and diverting myself in now and then finding a smoother pebble or a prettier shell than ordinary, whilst the great ocean of truth lay all undiscovered before me.
Isaac Newton, From Brewster, Memoirs of Newton (1855)
English mathematician & physicist (1642 - 1727)

[DavidFord]

First, did Jesus believe He had done things things in the sense we would understand Him having done these things? Because that's a very important question
Most of us don't have access to exorcists, they're pretty thin on the ground these days and people with demons tend to be in no position to seek them themselves. This is my first problem with demons. Real demons can actively seek people out and injure then I have a huge moral problem with this.
Yes, God made the world good but that's a big part of my problem. I don't literally believe in Adam and Eve either but if they existed I doubt that God put it into their hands to so ruin the world the way them seem to have under this reason. God called the world good and it remains so even though we do much bad and evil.
People with demons tend to incline against doing the things described in though verses which makes them hard to for them to fight.
In answer to your question about those four things, yes. Satan doesn't literally exist so didn't literally do those things. when Satan appears in the Bible however he represents something, not always the same thing, and what he represents does exist.

"did Jesus believe He had done things things in the sense we would understand Him having done these things?"
Yes.

Luke 7 (from Aramaic, based on Younan), http://dukhrana.com
18. And his talmida [students/disciples] reported all these things to Yukhanan. 19. And Yukhanan called two of his talmida and he sent them to Yeshua and said, "Are you he that is to come or should we wait for another?" 21. And they came to Yeshua and said to him,
"Yukhanan the baptizer sent us to you and said, '(Are) you he that is to come or should we wait for another?'" 21. And in that same hour, he healed many of their sickness and of plagues and of evil rukha [spirits], and he gave sight to many blind. 22. And Yeshua answered and said to them,
"Go tell Yukhanan everything that you have seen and heard,
that the blind see
and the lame walk
and the lepers are cleansed
and the deaf hear
and the dead arise
and the poor are given hope.
23. And blessed is he who is not offended at me."

"Most of us don't have access to exorcists, they're pretty thin on the ground these days"
Jesus has given every follower of his the authority and power to cast out demons.  It's sad that few Christians today imitate Jesus in casting out demons.  A low-key approach to expelling demons is the Unbound approach explained by Lozano; Kraft has used a similar approach to help over 2,000 people obtain much freedom.

Charles Kraft, _Two Hours to Freedom: A Simple and Effective Model for Healing and Deliverance_ (2010)
https://www.amazon.com/Two-Hours-Freedom-Effective-Deliverance/dp/0800794982/
Neil Lozano, _Unbound: A Practical Guide to Deliverance_
https://www.amazon.com/Unbound-Practical-Deliverance-Neal-Lozano/dp/0800794125/
do a control-f/ find for:  mimic
to get to:   Unbound: Expelling the Influence of Demons
http://podbay.fm/show/665532730

"Real demons can actively seek people out and injure then"
Indeed.  I knew a young person that was killed, and demons played a large role in that person's violent death.

"Satan... in the Bible... what he represents does exist"
In your view, what are some of the things that the Bible's mentions of Satan represent?

"I don't literally believe in Adam and Eve"
Do you in addition disbelieve Jesus had Adam as an ancestor?

Luke 3 (NKJV)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=luke+3&version=NKJV
23 Now Jesus Himself began His ministry at about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, the son of Heli, 24 the son of Matthat, the son of Levi.... 38 the son of Enosh, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God.

"Adam and Eve... if they existed I doubt that God put it into their hands to so ruin the world the way them seem to have"
God gives people choices.  Often people choose poorly, bringing heartache to both themselves and many others.

Deut 30:19
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy+30&version=NKJV
I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you,
that I have set before you
life and death,
blessing and cursing;
therefore choose life,
that both you and your descendants may live;

[marie glen]

One time, early, actually, very early in my walk in the faith, I had been reading lots, the New Testament, so I knew the things Paul wrote about “principalities and powers” and I knew how Jesus had said to His followers that he gave them power over serpents and scorpions.. and the swept house.. but no receiving of the Holy Spirit/Presence of God so the house was too empty, and the negative/evil spirit came back w/ comrads.

One day I was at a house where likely I shouldn’t have been. I was with my husband to be. The first thing I noticed was some very disturbing posters hanging on the walls. Then someone in the kitchen broke something glass and things sounded a bit strange. We went with my husband’s friend to see what was going on and here was this guy almost on all fours on the floor among broken glass stirring it around and growling.

I kid you not. Well, I think reflex just sort of took over and I stepped into the room, pointed at him and said “be gone in the name of Jesus” and he kind of half stood up and backed up (quickly) against the wall.. yes kind of flew back against the wall as he had been more or less towards the middle of the (smallish?) room.

:mshock:

His friend called the cops.. I remember not wanting to make eye contact with the guy.. which I’m not sure I should’ve felt that way, as it was fear.. And maybe the guy could’ve used some eye contact. :dontknow: (There had been no more growling, etc.)

Pretty weird huh?

[MusicLover123]

I heard Ray had an experience of demons. Around his early 30's, he and four other men went to see this 75 year old grandmother. Then, all of a sudden, she starts growling and screaming and trying to kill them. So, they quickly sat her in a chair. It took these 5 big strong men just to hold her down while demons where in her.

Are you kidding me? What sort of grandma would be that strong?

[DavidFord]

It took these 5 big strong men just to hold her down while demons where in her.
Are you kidding me? What sort of grandma would be that strong?

Mark 5 (based on Younan, from Aramaic)
2. And when he [Jesus] went out from the boat, a man who had an unclean rukha [spirit] in him happened upon him from the cemetery, 3. and he was dwelling in the cemetery. And no man was able to bind him with chains, because whenever he was bound with fetters and with chains, he would break the chains and he would cut the fetters and no man was able to subdue him.

[DavidFord]

here was this guy almost on all fours on the floor among broken glass stirring it around and growling

Bobby Jindal, "Beating a Demon: Physical Dimensions of Spiritual Warfare" _New Oxford Review_ (Dec 1994)
http://www.demon-slayer.org/the-bobby-jindal-exorcism-full-text/
In a voice I had never heard before or since, Su­san accused me: "Bobby, you cannot even love Susan."  Before I even noticed the sound of her voice, I thought it funny that Susan would refer to herself in the third person.  ....  Knowing that I was doing Susan no good, I quickly retreated to the opposite side of the room.  Susan proceeded to denounce every individual in the room, often citing very private and confidential information she could not possibly have known on her own.  It was information capable of hurting individuals — attacking people, as she did, by revealing their hidden feelings, fears, and worries.

[darryl]

I heard Ray had an experience of demons. Around his early 30's, he and four other men went to see this 75 year old grandmother. Then, all of a sudden, she starts growling and screaming and trying to kill them. So, they quickly sat her in a chair. It took these 5 big strong men just to hold her down while demons where in her.

Are you kidding me? What sort of grandma would be that strong?

agreed....i worry bout over talk about demons...well, i dont exactly 'worry' bout it but it kinda 'irritates' me as some ppl see demons everywhere n its a bit silly to me...sure, demons exist but ppl need to keep it in perspective.

[MusicLover123]

I heard Ray had an experience of demons. Around his early 30's, he and four other men went to see this 75 year old grandmother. Then, all of a sudden, she starts growling and screaming and trying to kill them. So, they quickly sat her in a chair. It took these 5 big strong men just to hold her down while demons where in her.

Are you kidding me? What sort of grandma would be that strong?

agreed....i worry bout over talk about demons...well, i dont exactly 'worry' bout it but it kinda 'irritates' me as some ppl see demons everywhere n its a bit silly to me...sure, demons exist but ppl need to keep it in perspective.

What if they where everywhere? We see through the glass darkly. But wherever they are, God is much more powerful than they. NOTHING can separate us from the Love of God, it isn't even a contest.

[DavidFord]

i worry bout over talk about demons...well, i dont exactly 'worry' bout it but it kinda 'irritates' me as some ppl see demons everywhere n its a bit silly to me...sure, demons exist but ppl need to keep it in perspective.

Have you personally known anyone who sees demons?

Interview: Blake Healy, 17 April 2018
https://spiritdaily.org/blog/angels/interview-blake-healy
....Blake W. Healy, a fellow from Atlanta who, since childhood, as we have related before, has had the gift of seeing into the supernatural — angels and demons.  Blake believes, interestingly enough, that many have the same gift but lose it in part by neglecting it; it fades with age.  "I have been stunned by how many have come up to me and told me they grew up seeing in the spirit and shut it down," he explains.