What do you think of the view that those in Sheol are getting tormented by demons doing to them the deeds those people did to others?
Isaiah 50:11 (NIV)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah+50&version=NIV
But now, all you who light fires
and provide yourselves with flaming torches,
go, walk in the light of your fires
and of the torches you have set ablaze.
This is what you shall receive from my hand:
You will lie down in torment.
Isaiah 3:11
Woe to the wicked!
Disaster is upon them!
They will be paid back
for what their hands have done.
Isaiah 48:22 "There is no peace," says the Lord, "for the wicked."
Mark 4 (Aramaic Bible in Plain English)
https://biblehub.com/aramaic-plain-english/mark/4.htm
22 "For there is nothing covered that shall not be revealed,
and nothing secret that will not be discovered." ....
24 ....that measure in which you are measuring
is measured to you,
and it is increased to you who hear."
Matthew 7 (Aramaic Bible in Plain English)
https://biblehub.com/aramaic-plain-english/matthew/7.htm
2 For with the judgment that you judge,
you will be judged,
and with the measure that you measure,
it will be measured to you.
B.W. Melvin, _A Land Unknown: Hell's Dominion_ (2005), 212pp.
https://www.amazon.com/Land-Hells-Dominion-B-Melvin-ebook/dp/B07B6C2JG3/
A Land Unknown: Hell's Dominion A true Near Death Experience FULL LENGHT - Crown and Diadem
https://youtu.be/h2X5uAB692A
04-25-17 Melvin He Saw Hell and Heaven - Prophecy Club
https://youtu.be/j5L2jsIb5Qk
04-26-17 Melvin He Saw Hell and Heaven Pt2 - Prophecy Club
https://youtu.be/t1VZyGxoik8
04-27-17 Melvin From Hell to Heaven Pt3 - Prophecy Club
https://youtu.be/qCRCyB4iEbA
Hell in a Box and From Hell to Heaven DVD Melvin 02-16-18 - Prophecy Club
https://youtu.be/LoMf6ZqsKmA
Hell in a Box and From Hell to Heaven DVD 2 Melvin 02-19-18 - Prophecy Club
https://youtu.be/Oa-_e0UZvTs
Hell in a Box and From Hell to Heaven DVD 3 Melvin 02-20-18 - Prophecy Club
https://youtu.be/x8e6j06MKco
Hell in a Box and From Hell to Heaven DVD 4 Melvin 02-21-18 - Prophecy Club
https://youtu.be/vaE78OoPtNY
John Milton (imagining the mind of the Devil) - "It is better to rule in Hell than serve in Heaven"
The Bible (according to Revelation 20:10) '...and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulphur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.'
(and Matthew 8:29) 'And behold, they cried out, "What have you to do with us, O Son of God? Have you come here to torment us before the time?"'
The Devil is not in Hell to rule it or to continue to torment those He deceived and tormented on Earth. Neither so are the demons. Hell is exclusively a place of torment and none but torment has any authority over others there. It is possible that this is represented, for a time, by the presence in the Lake of Fire of Death and Hades but no the suggestion that demons torment people in Hell is not Biblical.
:Chinscratch: I haven't time to read the thread now :( But the title made me wonder, does this include believers.. wait, Jesus did say to believers (the crowds in His teachings) "shall have your part in the lake which burns with fire". I guess what the question is, is what is that lake of fire?
I read a line in some prose many years ago, which said - (about God our Father) "with you .. He will play hide and seek.."
I finally agree with that! It's (imo) the whoLe ET thing!! Making mankind and each one of us seek after and find the real Him..
Quote from: CST on September 03, 2018, 01:28:45 PMThe Devil is not in Hell to rule it or to continue to torment those He deceived and tormented on Earth. Neither so are the demons.
"not in Hell.... Neither so are the demons"
Reference? What do you think of Ferrell's claim that she's seen people being oppressed by demons operating in Sheol?
Ana Mendez Ferrell, _Regions of Captivity_ (2015), 171pp. On 96:
Through a vision, the Lord took us to one of the regions of Sheol. There we saw demons allied with witches who had built a cemetery for pastors in the spiritual world.
On 24:
This was a terminal case, so I got into the Spirit to try to see the spiritual world around him.... It was an exact replica of the visible realm. The place was full of demons speaking over the sick man.... "Oh satan, satan, your will be done on earth, as it is in hell."
"Hell is exclusively a place of torment and none but torment has any authority over others there"
Do you think people on earth can give the devil authority to act on earth in a destructive fashion?
"the suggestion that demons torment people in Hell is not Biblical"
Is the fact that 2+2 = 4 "not Biblical"?
Quote from: marie glen on September 03, 2018, 02:59:01 PMJesus did say to believers (the crowds in His teachings) "shall have your part in the lake which burns with fire".
Reference that Jesus said that?
search for "lake" on NKJV
https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=lake&qs_version=NKJV&limit=500
It's interesting "Kimberly" is not only lake or pond, but relates to nearness of shore - I find that puzzling.. not sure why..
Matthew 5:22 is close.. but I'm not sure if it's the verse I was thinking of or if I've superimposed two verses together..
"But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court; and whoever says to his brother, 'You good-for-nothing,' shall be guilty before the supreme court; and whoever says, 'You fool,' shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell.
Matthew 10:28
"Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. (In "geena"/gehenna
— of course He can destroy life and limb in Gehenna.
And the verses in His sermon on the mount, of course, also Gehenna - which 'lake' I believe is the Armageddon valley (but also the fiery razing of Israel in 70 a.d., imo..
The parable abt the talents..
:Peace2:
So I was likely wrong.. not a quote abt the lake specifically..
Quote from: marie glen on September 03, 2018, 04:41:44 PMMatthew 5:22 is close
Matthew 5 from Aramaic (based on Younan of peshi tta.org, http://dukhrana.com)
21. You have heard that it was said to those before,
'you should not kill,'
and all that kill are condemned to dina [judgment].
22. But I say to you that,
anyone who provokes to anger his brother without cause
is condemned to dina,
and anyone who should say to his brother, 'Raca!' [(I) spit (on you); or: (you are) spit. Aramaic to Arabic to English produced: 'foul one']
is condemned to the assembly,
and anyone who should say, "Lela!"[(you are) a nursemaid/ coward]
is condemned to the fire of Gehenna.
:thumbsup:
Quote from: DavidFord on September 03, 2018, 05:01:24 AM
B.W. Melvin, _A Land Unknown: Hell's Dominion_ (2005), 212pp.
https://www.amazon.com/Land-Hells-Dominion-B-Melvin-ebook/dp/B07B6C2JG3/
https://www.amazon.com/gp/customer-reviews/R1BQ9GCPOA9ZOF?ref=pf_ov_at_pdctrvw_srp
I reviewed Mr Melvin's book about a decade ago due to my (life-long) seeking into non-human existence. If anyone could be bothered to read that review then here it is...
Customer Review
An interesting start but the God Who is Divine Love is misrepresented
By TB on October 27, 2008
Format: Paperback
Any portrayal of the horrors to be found in the hells should not be dismissed, but this book is far removed from a normal NDE experience. What the author "perceived" during the critically feverish cholera stage (after Fundamentalist education by Trish) appears more like a nightmare. Finite wicked works should receive inescapable like-for-like finite consequences, but this is distorted by the author to suit his religious preference of infinite consequences for finite sins.
The "cubes" appear to symbolise the self-imposed imprisonment of the spirit where the wicked receive their just reward with a precision that should display perfect and inviolable universal laws - the sowing and reaping (Gal.6:7); but, in contrast to this book, not everlastingly. As Christ said: "...with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you... (no more, no less) Luke 6:37". Hell is spiritually restorative i.e. it is used to purify the character of evil.
The author says he uses a "creative non-fiction" style. It appears that the "creative" part of "creative non-fiction" is given a very liberal scope in the author's noble attempt to proclaim his own concept of limited salvation. If the author was witnessing aspects of a hellish region, then it appears that his preconditioning to fundamentalist doctrine has shaped the remembrance of his experiences accordingly.
Receiving the "discourses", states Mr Melvin, was like "reading several long novels in a split second" and they "were added to aid literary flow". This certainly creates an enormous vacuum to be filled with words coming directly from a "creative" human mind. The author states that the "thoughts began to speak to me" and that the "words of thought rained down" on him - yet all in a "split second". Indeed, he states that the discourses "happened in a far different manner than I have recorded". All this leads me to believe the author has written what he feels he should write in response to genuinely reported NDEs which nullify Fundamentalism.
The needlessly repetitive "words of thought" are "mysteries" we are told. However, they are fundamentalist doctrine expounded in a modern creative style. To cut to the chase, the author states in the last pages of the book that all spiritual pathways - except the one he is expounding - are deceptions, and lead not to God but, by suggestion, to eternal torture.
Mr Melvin appears to explain that the reason why inhabitants are in Hell is because they had performed wicked and evil deeds. But this truth is negated by the "words of thought" which repeatedly refer to not choosing the "exchange" as the reason for their predicament - "exchange" undoubtedly referring to a one-time acceptance of the fundamentalist metaphysical concept of salvation. But the law of consequences cannot be circumvented by an affirmation of faith.
This book does possess a redemptive essence concerning the wicked motives, thoughts and actions of the lesser self, and the inescapable experiencing of consequences that abusing Divine Law brings. But in contrast, God's children should abide by His laws (not sin) out of love for Him - and not out of fear for themselves (selfishness).
This book turns this principle on its head and I feel that its portrayal of God is mindlessly mechanical as if all Creation was governed by some giant computer that plays out a heartless, malicious game that has no end. In this version of Hell, God cannot prevent children created in His own Image from being tortured eternally.
The book claims that the fate of Hell's inhabitants has been "sealed in eternity" and that character change is impossible because "...intellect and reason would continually pervert the change renewing detestation towards God". This strays wildly from Biblical demonstration.
Character change enables a soul to "live according to God in the Spirit" once physical death has occurred. If this was not feasible then Christ, immediately after His own physical death on the Cross, would not have bothered to preach to "onetime wicked" spirits of people who died centuries before (1 Peter 3:18-20 & 4:6) - a Biblical fact of which the literalistic Fundamentalist lives in denial.
It is reasonable that God has created redemptive laws, and when God's universal laws of love are violated, consequences are attached "until" ("ewv": passing of time - Matt. 18:34) they are paid in full. This process ultimately enables a deep character change through remorse and expiation.
The descriptions of Hell in texts such as "Paul and Albert" (Rev. Vale Owen) and various accounts found in "The Life Beyond The Veil" series, and a number of other similar texts, give a more comprehensive real-time understanding of the hells of misery, despair - but most importantly - the spiritual restoration processes involved. After decades of prayer I have concluded that the manner such texts are recorded is less prone to human interference and misinterpretation by far.
A bizarre question is asked by the "words of thought" in this book, as to how the justice of God could remain justice if there was no eternal torture in an everlasting Hell. This is a self-defeating question because finite sins receive finite punishment and an infinite punishment for finite sins is manifestly unjust. Hell is redemptive. That is Divine Justice. If limited humans can perceive this wonderful plan of God to redeem all fallen souls, surely we can credit the Creator of all Life with the ability to save His own creations?
In this book there has been a lowering of the status of God's Wisdom, masking the fullness of the Love of God which is so complete that none of His creations shall be lost to an "everlasting punishment" - a mistranslation barely used in the Bible that one wonders how half a doctrine of salvation is derived from it.
The ultimate test for me is: If something does not come up to the highest standard of love then it is certain that the mind of man, in contrast to the Mind of God, has played a greater or lesser part in what is being presented. I fail to understand how a loving Christian can experience real joy and contentment knowing that his or her brother or sister is subjected to eternal torture. The mind truly boggles.
Quote from: DavidFord on September 03, 2018, 03:52:05 PM
Quote from: CST on September 03, 2018, 01:28:45 PMThe Devil is not in Hell to rule it or to continue to torment those He deceived and tormented on Earth. Neither so are the demons.
"not in Hell.... Neither so are the demons"
Reference? What do you think of Ferrell's claim that she's seen people being oppressed by demons operating in Sheol?
Ana Mendez Ferrell, _Regions of Captivity_ (2015), 171pp. On 96:
Through a vision, the Lord took us to one of the regions of Sheol. There we saw demons allied with witches who had built a cemetery for pastors in the spiritual world.
On 24:
This was a terminal case, so I got into the Spirit to try to see the spiritual world around him.... It was an exact replica of the visible realm. The place was full of demons speaking over the sick man.... "Oh satan, satan, your will be done on earth, as it is in hell."
"Hell is exclusively a place of torment and none but torment has any authority over others there"
Do you think people on earth can give the devil authority to act on earth in a destructive fashion?
"the suggestion that demons torment people in Hell is not Biblical"
Is the fact that 2+2 = 4 "not Biblical"?
Sorry, I thought wrong you'd be able to draw the inference. The Devil is not in Hell to rule it, he's there to be punished as is everyone else. The demons are there to be punished. No one directly does the punishing, certainly not in the vindictive way you describe.
Technically the fact that 2+ 2 = 4 is not Biblical as the Bible doesn't particularly 'do maths' A lot of its science is now known to be wrong if read absolutely and literally. It's application of Pi is wrong if read absolutely and literally, according to the Bible Pi = 3.
I see what your trying to say though but but making a false equivalency since what you read as '2' may in fact not be '2'. And that would throw your maths off.
Eek! Visions of hell! Well this sums up for me both such 'visions' and also NDE's! People have very lively imaginations!
:laughing7: :gsmile: :Peace2:
Quote from: CST on September 04, 2018, 05:17:21 PMSorry, I thought wrong you'd be able to draw the inference. The Devil is not in Hell to rule it, he's there to be punished as is everyone else. The demons are there to be punished.
Is the devil in hell now? Are demons in hell now? Are some humans in hell now?QuoteNo one directly does the punishing, certainly not in the vindictive way you describe.
What sort of punishing occurs in hell: presently? at some point in the future?
Is it the idea that ppl go to heaven and/or 'hell' before Judgment?
Quote from: marie glen on September 07, 2018, 04:44:15 PM
Is it the idea that ppl go to heaven and/or 'hell' before Judgment?
Melvin says he died, and went to a frightening place where he saw demons doing to people what those people had done to others while living on earth. I don't recall him saying he faced any formal Judgment before being deposited in a cube, which he exited and subsequently was taken on a tour of the place.
I vaguely recall coming across a few accounts of people going to heaven upon dying (later to return to physical life), but don't recall any saying they faced a formal Judgment before entering heaven. Howard Pittman in _Placebo_ says he didn't enter heaven, God spoke to him ("He pointed out that my faith was dead, that my works were not acceptable, and that I had laboured in vain.... telling me that what I did, I did for myself.... I was doing that [witnessing] only for myself in order that my conscience might be soothed. In essence, my first love and first works were for myself"-33), and he ended up not entering heaven but instead returned to physical life.
NDEs have been recently disproved, apparently.
No this is true. Scientists, those clever people, developed a type of hallucinogen that has effects strongly comparable to experiences of people claiming NDEs. Sorry.
Never mind that hallucinogens tend to be stimulant drugs and people who experience NDEs are in a pretty unstimulated state where the vast majority of there brain is all but deactivated. Never mind that.
I don't tend to believe anything can be objectively learned from NDEs. I know our biological brain is designed to record biological experiences. Therefore if you approach death and don't have an NDE it can suggest nothing more than your brain didn't record it in a way your memory can access.
Similarly, however, I there's no way to no an objective experience actually occurred if people do. The experience could been anything you can't draw conclusions from them.
And so, yes, while no-one seems to record any form of judgement before going to either state obviously no one who returns to tell the tale stays there indefinitely so the purpose for their being there will be different and a judgement not necessary.
The judgement has a specific purpose and it's unlikely it's for the benefit of God to boast about how righteous He is or otherwise show off.
NDEs prove nothing and can be used for arguments for very little.
Quote from: CST on September 15, 2018, 11:59:12 AMScientists, those clever people, developed a type of hallucinogen that has effects strongly comparable to experiences of people claiming NDEs.
Melvin claims that he saw demons defecate on a child molester, and then years later after he got into social work learned that molesters often do that to their victims. Melvin claims that he saw a Nazi getting mistreated by demons the ways the Nazi had mistreated various Easter Europeans, and then years later Melvin came across a photo eerily reminiscent of one of those scenes he'd earlier observed. There's a famous NDE where a guy went out of his body and observed a shoe on the rooftop; investigation revealed that yes, there was a shoe on the rooftop, not-visible from the ground. Can this hallucinogen supply knowledge that the recipient lacked awareness of their knowing prior to receiving the hallucinogen?
No, but a general understanding of God should make such impressions of Hell highly dubious especially to those of us who profess UR which I was of the impression you did.
Melvin may well have heard these things previously and then forgotten I know I've heard them before even though I've never had any NDEs so far as I know. Even though I've had what I would term experiences of both Heaven and Hell.
Quote from: CST on September 17, 2018, 01:07:07 PMNo, but a general understanding of God should make such impressions of Hell highly dubious especially to those of us who profess UR which I was of the impression you did.
Melvin may well have heard these things previously and then forgotten I know I've heard them before even though I've never had any NDEs so far as I know. Even though I've had what I would term experiences of both Heaven and Hell.
"a general understanding of God should make such impressions of Hell highly dubious"
How so? 'Moab is my washpot' God has often allowed the enemies of Israel to wreak havoc and grievous harm for a period of time on a wayward Israel. Also, it's a biblical principle that, as Charles Stanley often observes, one reaps what one sows, later than one sows, more than what one sows. Also, God allows demons to wreak havoc and grievous harm on humans this side of the grave.
"Melvin may well have heard these things previously and then forgotten"
Possibly. How can hallucinogens account for knowing that the shoe, unobservable from the ground, was on the roof?
"I've had what I would term experiences of both Heaven and Hell"
What was your experience of hell like?
Hmm, you're misunderstanding. You're belief in this only works because you seem to possess a certain lack of moral understanding.
A lot of child sex abusers are previously victims of child sex abuse so the idea of then inflicting what they did on them and called it justice becomes difficult. and it's not very constructive to go back down the chain and find the people who weren't any sort of victim of child sex abuse and inflicting child sex abuse on them because a. their actions may well not be on the same level as those that followed them, b. their society may not have been sufficiently opposed to the concept and c. they're no longer children so the situation's not the same.
That last one is a particularly important moral point because a. there's no reason to think doing to them whatever they did to their victims will produce any sort of remorse or repentance for actions we can already be sure they knew were evil and, to use Melvin's repulsive example, b. if my enemy defecates on me, disgusting as that is, it is not the same as someone who is professing to be my friend is defecating on me while also raping me while continuing to maintain they are my friend all while I am a child and they are an adult who I should be able to automatically trust to treat me better. A demon doing this just isn't the same thing. Not that I've generally heard on demons defecating being non physical being as they are.
What you're doing is a moral fallacy. By suggesting this you are reducing the moral magnitude of what the sex predator actually did into something that can be compensated for simply by them somehow experiencing some sort of equivalence of the what they did. That's a morally repulsive idea and a step into very dangerous territory.
Not you're making a fallacy. If you're suggesting that supranatural knowledge of the wider world in your near vicinity equates to proof that what is subsequently experience in what is supposedly the next world is a real objective experience.
A year or so ago, scientists attempted to test NDEs. Never mind shoes they put specially designed pictures up high in surgery rooms where people might be expected to have near-death experiences. These pictures were not in any place where they could be seen from the room its self. Only someone who had an out of body experience would have any chance of seeing them although the scientists who put them there obviously knew what they looked like. The intent was to ask people after they came out of surgery if they had had any NDE-like observations and check to see if they could describe the secret image or images. It would be taken that if they generally could identify the image they had probably had some objective experience at least to that point while if they couldn't they hadn't. I never heard much affirming result from this study, which I would have expected if it went well for NDEs, and now I read they've developed a drug that can simulate the experience.
Now to me this was always dubious all it proves, at most is that maybe humans have more senses and abilities than we know about and in these circumstances we sometimes become able to access them. These drugs may simply provide another path. It proves nothing.
It certainly doesn't make the experiences objective. They remain subjective because they can't be directly shared with or experienced by anyone else.
My experience of Hell was a nightmare in which I was in a dark and incredibly empty place, a lot of the experience has passed now but the feelings I remember having were sorrowful and negative and at a level I don't remember ever experiencing in life. What was most palpable about this dream was that I kept waking up but every time I went to sleep I was right back there again. I can't remember ever having another dream which I didn't leave behind upon waking, I've occasionally had nightmares that have recurred years later but I can't remember ever having another dream that I kept returning to as soon as I went back to sleep. Eventually I cast a patronus, so to speak, and rose out of this dark place at which point I woke up and next time i went to sleep I didn't experience the Hellish place. But I'm sure you find that mundane and very disappointing.
I think sometimes people have fever or drug induced dreams and hallucinations that mean nothing.
Another possibility is these are actual experiences or visions but since we can't prove it we can't say for certain what is going on and IMO they be misinterpreted.
I would certainly like this guy's vision to be a fever induced meaningless dream because it is so awful.
I 100 percent believe that IF anything hellish happens in this world or another it is NOT God's will or His doing, more that He is allowing something to take place in the same way hellish things happen here on earth, as part of us working out, as Marie likes to point out, the futility of our wandering from
God in order to bring us to the realization that we were wrong and seek Him and His ways (repentance, obedience, etc). I think that we do reap what we sow just as a law of cause and effect, that is in effect on Earth as much as anywhere else, not that God will do evil to us via demons to get us back. I think the numerous passages about forgiveness and love show that God's nature is contrary to this idea.
I hesitate to cite NDEs since they are not proof of anything because they are subjective and individual experiences, but I did read one that said that after death, if one does not respond to the light/God/Christ, the person will temporarily be "separate" from God until the person is willing to respond to or seek out God, similar to being here on earth like attracts like, and so they are surrounded by other similarly lost people, but that God's angels are constantly ministering to them to get them to respond to and turn to God.
IF anything like hell exists in the next world I believe it to be something like that, where the illusion of separation from God is internal and there is always a chance to "get out" and come into his presence. If there is a hell I think like CS Lewis speculated, that it is self induced. So maybe the vision is people being tormented by the memories of their own past deeds against others and how that can torment a person. That torment can exist here on earth as well, when we realize we have acted in ways that are unloving and hurtful and even evil and how our actions have negatively affected others.
But it's all speculation at this point and the good news is we know the end result, the "all in all."
Quote from: GodIsLove on September 18, 2018, 02:08:08 PM
I hesitate to cite NDEs since they are not proof of anything because they are subjective and individual experiences, but I did read one that said that after death, if one does not respond to the light/God/Christ, the person will temporarily be "separate" from God until the person is willing to respond to or seek out God, similar to being here on earth like attracts like, and so they are surrounded by other similarly lost people, but that God's angels are constantly ministering to them to get them to respond to and turn to God.
IF anything like hell exists in the next world I believe it to be something like that, where the illusion of separation from God is internal and there is always a chance to "get out" and come into his presence. If there is a hell I think like CS Lewis speculated, that it is self induced. So maybe the vision is people being tormented by the memories of their own past deeds against others and how that can torment a person. That torment can exist here on earth as well, when we realize we have acted in ways that are unloving and hurtful and even evil and how our actions have negatively affected others.
:iagree: ..it makes more sense, to me, than any sort of God imposed torment or punishment.. I tend to think in terms of reaping as we sow and things running their natural course just naturally wind up proving God right (in all things).. when things crash n burn, as the saying goes, whether it's individual or collective, we find out God was right after all..
Quote from: GodIsLove on September 18, 2018, 02:08:08 PM
....the good news is we know the end result, the "all in all."
:thumbsup: :girlheart:
Quote from: CST on September 18, 2018, 12:41:16 PMA lot of child sex abusers are previously victims of child sex abuse so the idea of then inflicting what they did on them and called it justice becomes difficult. and it's not very constructive to go back down the chain and find the people who weren't any sort of victim of child sex abuse and inflicting child sex abuse on them because a. their actions may well not be on the same level as those that followed them, b. their society may not have been sufficiently opposed to the concept and c. they're no longer children so the situation's not the same.
That last one is a particularly important moral point because a. there's no reason to think doing to them whatever they did to their victims will produce any sort of remorse or repentance for actions we can already be sure they knew were evil and, to use Melvin's repulsive example, b. if my enemy defecates on me, disgusting as that is, it is not the same as someone who is professing to be my friend is defecating on me while also raping me while continuing to maintain they are my friend all while I am a child and they are an adult who I should be able to automatically trust to treat me better. A demon doing this just isn't the same thing. Not that I've generally heard on demons defecating being non physical being as they are.
What you're doing is a moral fallacy. By suggesting this you are reducing the moral magnitude of what the sex predator actually did into something that can be compensated for simply by them somehow experiencing some sort of equivalence of the what they did. That's a morally repulsive idea and a step into very dangerous territory.
Not you're making a fallacy. If you're suggesting that supranatural knowledge of the wider world in your near vicinity equates to proof that what is subsequently experience in what is supposedly the next world is a real objective experience.
"A lot of child sex abusers are previously victims of child sex abuse"
Indeed. And Hitler's atheist father beat him when he was a boy.
"the idea of then inflicting what they did on them and called it justice becomes difficult"
I didn't call it justice.
"there's no reason to think doing to them whatever they did to their victims will produce any sort of remorse or repentance for actions"
Melvin said one guy was regretting having put another in prison. Maybe the regret was remorse.
"we can already be sure they knew were evil"
People lie to themselves regularly. There's gradations of confidence in knowing something.
"to use Melvin's repulsive example, b. if my enemy defecates on me, disgusting as that is, it is not the same as someone who is professing to be my friend is defecating on me while also raping me while continuing to maintain they are my friend all while I am a child and they are an adult who I should be able to automatically trust to treat me better. A demon doing this just isn't the same thing."
Melvin said demons mistreating humans took on the appearance of humans.
God allows demons to harm people this side of the grave; Melvin's account has demons harming people the other side of the grave. Fallen angels will be judged for their misdeeds, regardless of where they committed them.
Jn 10:10 (based on Younan)
A thief does not come but that (he) may steal and kill and destroy.
I have come that they may have life,
and they may have something which is abundant.
1Cor 6:3 (KJV) Know ye not that we shall judge angels?....
"Not that I've generally heard on demons defecating being non physical being as they are"
I've read in a couple places that demons can take on physical form. In Melvin's account, non-physical demons were mistreating non-physical humans.
"you are reducing the moral magnitude of what the sex predator actually did into something that can be compensated for simply by them somehow experiencing some sort of equivalence of the what they did"
I didn't say compensated.
"My experience of Hell was a nightmare in which I was in a dark and incredibly empty place, a lot of the experience has passed now but the feelings I remember having were sorrowful and negative and at a level I don't remember ever experiencing in life. What was most palpable about this dream was that I kept waking up but every time I went to sleep I was right back there again. I can't remember ever having another dream which I didn't leave behind upon waking, I've occasionally had nightmares that have recurred years later but I can't remember ever having another dream that I kept returning to as soon as I went back to sleep. Eventually I cast a patronus, so to speak, and rose out of this dark place at which point I woke up and next time i went to sleep I didn't experience the Hellish place."
Very interesting. Thanks for sharing.
Quote from: GodIsLove on September 18, 2018, 02:08:08 PMI would certainly like this guy's vision to be a fever induced meaningless dream because it is so awful.
Agreed. Problem is, I accept Melvin's account-- it has the ring of truth. Maybe I'm just being gullible.
"it is so awful"
Heaven is so wonderful.
1Cor 2:9 (KJV) But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
Jesus said'Fear not those that can kill the body...and then do nothing else..[Paulsaid'turn such a one over to satan for the destruction
of the flesh..that the spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord.]Rather fear Him who has the power.........
Lof PREPARED for satan and his angels...Kingdom prepared for all men....thanks to redemption and the Lamb that takes away all their sin.
Satan keeps transforming himself into an angel of'light'..but if the "light"that BE IN YOU..be darkness...how great is that darkness.
May the Lord cause HIS FACE to shine upon you . Look! the people dwelling in great darkness...have seen a great light!
We shallnot all die,FOR WE SHALL ALL BE CHANGED!in the twinkling of an eye. that which is corrupt must put on incorruption,
that which is mortal must put on immortality.
Look! I make all things NEW!!!!!!!!Just as allmen havebore the image of the corrupt..SO TOO,shall all men bear the image of
the incorrupt!
Rev ch 17,18In her was found the bloodof the prophets and the saints..AND OF ALL WHO HAVE BEEN KILLED ON THE EARTH.
Babylon=CONFUSION OF THE PEOPLE regardingwho what God is,what He wants,what He thinks,what He is doing and what Hewilldo.
when partaking of the TOKOGAE..the warring and confusion in the minds ofmen began.The mixing of darkness with light..with many
false images of God[idols/teachings of demons] Jesus described the peopleof Hs day..as sheep without a shepherd..because
offspring of viper spirits had overcome the religious leaders to such an extent..that they didn't even recognize the Word of God and truth
when it was spoken unto them..along with great signs and wonders.
in Elijah'sday the people were confused as unto who represented the TRUE GOD,also.Baal? Asherah/prophets of the groves?Lying spirits
confusing the people yet again.
antichrist spirit is judgement without mercy[law-eye for an eye,tooth for a tooth...and all will end up blind with incomprehensive
speech/WORD of God.] the law is to serve as a tutour to lead you to Christ/the mercy forgiveness of God unto all men..a free gift..not
a works based/merit system of judgement.The law is written to restrain the sin in our flesh..but surely we know by now that we have all
been bound up[ensnared in it]ordisobedient in one way or another..so that no flesh can boast? We haven't forgotten that God's
power is made perfect in weakness. You must be perfect,likeyour Father/God. Love is a perfect bond of union[oneness]it keeps no
account of the injury...but freely forgives. The power of God/Love...transforms/changes/forgives/heals....
For I will not always find fault..for then the very spirit[love] would fail.
Sheila!! :friendstu:
Quote from: DavidFord on September 19, 2018, 12:07:39 AM
"A lot of child sex abusers are previously victims of child sex abuse"
Indeed. And Hitler's atheist father beat him when he was a boy.
"the idea of then inflicting what they did on them and called it justice becomes difficult"
I didn't call it justice.
"there's no reason to think doing to them whatever they did to their victims will produce any sort of remorse or repentance for actions"
Melvin said one guy was regretting having put another in prison. Maybe the regret was remorse.
"we can already be sure they knew were evil"
People lie to themselves regularly. There's gradations of confidence in knowing something.
"to use Melvin's repulsive example, b. if my enemy defecates on me, disgusting as that is, it is not the same as someone who is professing to be my friend is defecating on me while also raping me while continuing to maintain they are my friend all while I am a child and they are an adult who I should be able to automatically trust to treat me better. A demon doing this just isn't the same thing."
Melvin said demons mistreating humans took on the appearance of humans.
God allows demons to harm people this side of the grave; Melvin's account has demons harming people the other side of the grave. Fallen angels will be judged for their misdeeds, regardless of where they committed them.
Jn 10:10 (based on Younan)
A thief does not come but that (he) may steal and kill and destroy.
I have come that they may have life,
and they may have something which is abundant.
1Cor 6:3 (KJV) Know ye not that we shall judge angels?....
"Not that I've generally heard on demons defecating being non physical being as they are"
I've read in a couple places that demons can take on physical form. In Melvin's account, non-physical demons were mistreating non-physical humans.
"you are reducing the moral magnitude of what the sex predator actually did into something that can be compensated for simply by them somehow experiencing some sort of equivalence of the what they did"
I didn't say compensated.
"My experience of Hell was a nightmare in which I was in a dark and incredibly empty place, a lot of the experience has passed now but the feelings I remember having were sorrowful and negative and at a level I don't remember ever experiencing in life. What was most palpable about this dream was that I kept waking up but every time I went to sleep I was right back there again. I can't remember ever having another dream which I didn't leave behind upon waking, I've occasionally had nightmares that have recurred years later but I can't remember ever having another dream that I kept returning to as soon as I went back to sleep. Eventually I cast a patronus, so to speak, and rose out of this dark place at which point I woke up and next time i went to sleep I didn't experience the Hellish place."
Very interesting. Thanks for sharing.
I'd advise against bringing Hitler into this because what happened in nazi Germany is way to complicated to reduce purely to him.
"I didn't call it justice"
No, except you did because that's already been done for you. Obviously everyone knows that the whole conversation of Hell is part of the conversation of God's justice, that's why only 'bad' people go there. If you take that out the equation and Mary Poppins could wind up in Hell. The fact hat people in Hell justly deserve to be there and justly deserve what happens to them. That's the whole thrust of the discussion.
"People lie to themselves regularly. There's gradations of confidence in knowing something."
Quite so, at which point you pul the rug from under yourself because you seem not to understand what that actually means. I can think of two people who are particularly good at lying to themselves; you and Melvin if you are unable to understand what it wrong with what you're proposing here. Obvious, if Melvin is that good and practiced at deceit without even realizing it, obviously what he says will have a 'ring of truth'. That doesn't make it true.
"I've read in a couple places that demons can take on physical form."
Are either of those places the Bible? Because if they're not you're on very shaky ground.
"In Melvin's account, non-physical demons were mistreating non-physical humans."
Non-physical demons defecating on non-physical humans doesn't have a ring of truth to me.
"I didn't say compensated."
I refer you to the top of my reply. You didn't have to say it, it's an unavoidable part of the conversation.
Quote from: GodIsLove on September 19, 2018, 03:41:17 PM
Sheila!! :friendstu:
:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :girlheart:
--------------------------------
Without - hopefully - being offensive, I sometimes have to chuckle over ppl's view of a hell.. I think many times it is fantasies of what might befall one's 'enemies'.. Or those folks who just won't listen to one's efforts to share the salvation message - which truth be told, lots of believers believe unless they convince someone of the truth, they will perish. Or worse. So can be very persistent.. then in the heat of the debate or whatnot, can even become a bit obnoxious.. But for whichever reason, can be totally overly persistent..
And these visions of hell can be very convincing I'm sure, man is veRy imaginative. Just look at schizophrenia, very imaginative-what is perceived to be going on and very real to the one 'seeing' it.
I think things which happen to people right here on Earth.. the surface that is - some folks believe 'hell' is in the center of the earth - yes while they are full of peace and joy on the surface, some of their loved ones will be being burned alive forever and ever, with no relief ever.. How this will equate believer's joy being "full" is beyond me. And God who "is love" it seems, will be oblivious to it.
I think there's plenty of hellish things right here on earth and in history.. which satan&co - (the adversary called the god/spirit?/guide?/instigator! of this world) have plenty to be judged over.. Don't they have their fingers in every pie, and play all sides of all issues? Always nudging toward division, thievery, murder, war(s).. horrors of war & other horrors.. Though mankind itself is quite capable of these on their very own..
Personally, I don't pay any mind to visions, good or bad. I figure the bible says to meditate on His word day and night.. And if we do, we will be like being planted by streams of water.. even in old age our leaf will not wither (but will still have in us the sap of vitality.. and the fire and zeal God's Spirit imparts).
Was it Jonothan Edwards who used to preach about visions of hell? people's flesh melting and other details (shades of schizophrenia?) I've seen forums where the forum image is humans being burned alive, which image is designed to win people over into faith in Him (shades of schizophrenia? :laughing7: )
It sure is good to know, God wins all. As will Truth remain standing/alone victorious.
Of course all these images are of a lake of literal fire (not here zeal!) not realizing Revelation says hell (the grave or hades) will be itself thrown to the lake of fire.. Is the lake of fire going to be cast into the lake of fire? not too logical..
"Thy Word is Truth" which yes is Jesus, but also we are to rightly divide the Word.. And it is profitable for learning, for teaching, etc.. Is the vision we can trust.. If there were 'hell' I have to think every prophet and teacher/preacher of the bible would openly and obviously warn against it! (As brother Laz pointed out in his thread, "heaven yes, hell no" (I think the name of it is).
Whereas the gehenna('s) of Jesus' words, are obviously referring to judgment upon criminals - better they cast their hand or eye away, than their whole body be tossed to Gehenna Valley where the bodies of criminals were burned and kept burned to prevent putrefaction abounding.. And the converts of Pharisees becoming sons of Gehenna.. again, criminals (or worse).. (Recognizing Jesus was in Israel, speaking to Israel... Not that it's unbelievable to have also a wider application one day, when Jesus returns with/midst(?) fire 2 Thess 1?:7,8.. Fire, I believe, caused by man.)
And.. If the choice of who comes to the faith during this life, is up to God.. He chooses - then why would those not chosen by God to come to the faith during this brief lifetime, be subjected to judgment far exceeding what judgment 'the elect' / chosen by God to believe now, experienced in our conversion and process of purification?
p.s. - it's my belief the dangers spoken of by bible prophecy of things coming are also a fire.. The more stable a believer is in truth, the less chance of those troubles coming upon one unawares, surprising them, snaring them.. A staunch hate preacher, I think, will be saved, but so as by fire..
:girlheart:
Quote from: marie glen on September 19, 2018, 07:12:07 PMthe gehenna('s) of Jesus' words, are obviously referring to judgment upon criminals - better they cast their hand or eye away, than their whole body be tossed to Gehenna Valley where the bodies of criminals were burned and kept burned to prevent putrefaction abounding
"referring to judgment upon criminals"
Are you aware of any societies that criminalized name-calling?
Mt 5 (based on Younan), http://dukhrana.com
21. You have heard that it was said to those before,
you should not kill,
and all that kill are condemned to dina [judgment].
22. But I say to you that,
anyone who provokes to anger his brother without cause
is condemned to dina,
and anyone who should say to his brother, 'Raca!' [(I) spit (on you); or: (you are) spit. Aramaic to Arabic to English produced: foul one]
is condemned to the assembly,
and anyone who should say, "Lela!"[(you are) a nursemaid/ coward]
is condemned to the fire of Gehenna.
Quote from: CST on September 19, 2018, 06:17:39 PMI'd advise against bringing Hitler into this because what happened in nazi Germany is way to complicated to reduce purely to him.
"I didn't call it justice"
No, except you did because that's already been done for you. Obviously everyone knows that the whole conversation of Hell is part of the conversation of God's justice, that's why only 'bad' people go there. If you take that out the equation and Mary Poppins could wind up in Hell. The fact hat people in Hell justly deserve to be there and justly deserve what happens to them. That's the whole thrust of the discussion.
"People lie to themselves regularly. There's gradations of confidence in knowing something."
Quite so, at which point you pul the rug from under yourself because you seem not to understand what that actually means. I can think of two people who are particularly good at lying to themselves; you and Melvin if you are unable to understand what it wrong with what you're proposing here. Obvious, if Melvin is that good and practiced at deceit without even realizing it, obviously what he says will have a 'ring of truth'. That doesn't make it true.
"I've read in a couple places that demons can take on physical form."
Are either of those places the Bible? Because if they're not you're on very shaky ground.
"In Melvin's account, non-physical demons were mistreating non-physical humans."
Non-physical demons defecating on non-physical humans doesn't have a ring of truth to me.
"I didn't say compensated."
I refer you to the top of my reply. You didn't have to say it, it's an unavoidable part of the conversation.
"Non-physical demons defecating on non-physical humans doesn't have a ring of truth to me"
Do you think non-physical words can damage non-physical human spirits?
I fail to see any allusions to/ invocations of 'compensation'-- nor 'justice'-- here:
Moab was God's washpot re: his wayward Israel;
demons in hell are God's washpot re: those wayward sons of God that wound up in hell.
Psalm 60 (NKJV)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm+60&version=NKJV
1 O God, You have cast us off;
You have broken us down;
You have been displeased;
Oh, restore us again! ....
3 You have shown Your people hard things;
You have made us drink the wine of confusion. ....
8 Moab is My washpot;
Over Edom I will cast My shoe;
Philistia, shout in triumph because of Me."
Hebrews 12:8 (from Aramaic), http://dukhrana.com
(Etheridge) And if ye be without the correction with which every one is corrected,
ye are aliens, and not children.
(Murdock) But if ye are without that chastisement, with which every one is chastened,
ye are become strangers and not sons.
Rev 3:19
(Etheridge) All those whom I love, I reprove and chasten:
be zealous therefore, and repent.
(Murdock) As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten.
Be emulous therefore, and repent.
(Lamsa) I rebuke and chastise all those whom I love:
be zealous, therefore, and repent.
(KJV) As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten:
be zealous therefore, and repent.
Hosea 6 (NKJV)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=hosea+6&version=NKJV
6 Come, and let us return to the Lord;
For He has torn, but He will heal us;
He has stricken, but He will bind us up.
2 After two days He will revive us;
On the third day He will raise us up,
That we may live in His sight.
Do you think Melvin is: lying? recollecting a hallucination? recounting a drug trip?
"Are either of those places the Bible?"
No. I was thinking of Rebecca Brown's _He Came to Set the Captives Free_
https://www.amazon.com/He-Came-Set-Captives-Free/dp/0883683237/
and someplace else. In a Darren Wilson film (probably one of the 3 mentioned below), a woman who had been a bride of satan describes seeing him once.
https://www.amazon.com/Furious-Love-Wanderlust-Productions/dp/B003KOPF80/
https://www.amazon.com/Finger-God-Darren-Wilson/dp/B00116495O/
https://www.amazon.com/Father-Lights-Darren-Wilson/dp/B009ISQ3DI/
There's a story of Smith Wigglesworth once seeing the devil:
http://janetkatherinesmith.blogspot.com/2012/10/they-saw-deviland-glory.html
"On one occasion Wigglesworth awoke during the night aware of a satanic presence. Looking across the room, he saw the Devil himself standing there. Wigglesworth said to Satan, 'Oh, it's only you.' Then he turned over and went back to sleep"
The Accuser had a physical form in the Garden of Eden. Which if any of these have taken on a physical form, in your view?:
some guardian angels. God the Father. God the Son. God the Holy Spirit. satan.
You know you're editing of Psalm 60 abuses the text somewhat. David was trying to appeal to God to grant Israel victory over their enemies one of which was Moab. Israel's battle against their enemies clearly wasn't going so well but it clearly isn't due to God being defeated by any of them. Moab isn't Israel in this model. Israel is Israel. Moab is the target of the wrath here not Israel.
If you think demons in hell are God''s washpot then it's the demons who will be the target of God's wrath.
Do I think that non-physical demons can harm non-physical human spirits? Well I don't actually believe in literal demons but if there were such things yes I do but by methods that could not be compared to defecating on people or giving a lifelong burglar swaths of possessions. Allowing them to bed in and then stealing them from him.
And I don't care what Melvin is doing all three of those options mean he is equally delivering falsehood and thus we are free to discern said falsehood and obligated to reject it.
"The Accuser had a physical form in the Garden of Eden."
Actually that is disputed. I've read some pseudepigraphal versions of the story where the serpent is not in fact Satan but Satan merely instructs the serpent on what to do.
Quote from: CST on September 21, 2018, 05:13:07 PM
You know you're editing of Psalm 60 abuses the text somewhat. David was trying to appeal to God to grant Israel victory over their enemies one of which was Moab. Israel's battle against their enemies clearly wasn't going so well but it clearly isn't due to God being defeated by any of them. Moab isn't Israel in this model. Israel is Israel. Moab is the target of the wrath here not Israel.
Moab appears in Ps 60 in a remark attributed to God.
Psalm 60 (NIV)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=ps+60&version=NIV
For the director of music. To the tune of "The Lily of the Covenant." A miktam of David. ....
6 God has spoken from his sanctuary:
"In triumph I will parcel out Shechem
and measure off the Valley of Sukkoth.
7 Gilead is mine, and Manasseh is mine;
Ephraim is my helmet,
Judah is my scepter.
8 Moab is my washbasin,
on Edom I toss my sandal;
over Philistia I shout in triumph."
QuoteIf you think demons in hell are God"s washpot then it's the demons who will be the target of God's wrath.
I do think demons will be targets of God's wrath.
Revelation 20:10, http://www.dukhrana.com
(Murdock) And the Accuser [Aramaic: Akelqartsa] who seduced them, was cast into the lake of fire and sulphur, where also were the beast of prey and the false prophet: and they shall be tormented....
QuoteDo I think that non-physical demons can harm non-physical human spirits? Well I don't actually believe in literal demons but if there were such things yes I do but by methods that could not be compared to defecating on people or giving a lifelong burglar swaths of possessions. Allowing them to bed in and then stealing them from him.
Do you think Jesus believed in literal demons?
QuoteI've read some pseudepigraphal versions of the story where the serpent is not in fact Satan but Satan merely instructs the serpent on what to do.
Do you agree with me that in the Genesis account, satan had a physical form in the Garden of Eden?
Genesis 3 (KJV)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=genesis+3&version=KJV
3 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden? ....
4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil. ....
13 And the Lord God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.
14 And the Lord God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
Quote from: DavidFord on September 21, 2018, 11:22:26 PM
Quote from: CST on September 21, 2018, 05:13:07 PM
You know you're editing of Psalm 60 abuses the text somewhat. David was trying to appeal to God to grant Israel victory over their enemies one of which was Moab. Israel's battle against their enemies clearly wasn't going so well but it clearly isn't due to God being defeated by any of them. Moab isn't Israel in this model. Israel is Israel. Moab is the target of the wrath here not Israel.
Moab appears in Ps 60 in a remark attributed to God.
Psalm 60 (NIV)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=ps+60&version=NIV
For the director of music. To the tune of "The Lily of the Covenant." A miktam of David. ....
6 God has spoken from his sanctuary:
"In triumph I will parcel out Shechem
and measure off the Valley of Sukkoth.
7 Gilead is mine, and Manasseh is mine;
Ephraim is my helmet,
Judah is my scepter.
8 Moab is my washbasin,
on Edom I toss my sandal;
over Philistia I shout in triumph."
QuoteIf you think demons in hell are God"s washpot then it's the demons who will be the target of God's wrath.
I do think demons will be targets of God's wrath.
Revelation 20:10, http://www.dukhrana.com
(Murdock) And the Accuser [Aramaic: Akelqartsa] who seduced them, was cast into the lake of fire and sulphur, where also were the beast of prey and the false prophet: and they shall be tormented....
QuoteDo I think that non-physical demons can harm non-physical human spirits? Well I don't actually believe in literal demons but if there were such things yes I do but by methods that could not be compared to defecating on people or giving a lifelong burglar swaths of possessions. Allowing them to bed in and then stealing them from him.
Do you think Jesus believed in literal demons?
QuoteI've read some pseudepigraphal versions of the story where the serpent is not in fact Satan but Satan merely instructs the serpent on what to do.
Do you agree with me that in the Genesis account, satan had a physical form in the Garden of Eden?
Genesis 3 (KJV)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=genesis+3&version=KJV
3 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden? ....
4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil. ....
13 And the Lord God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.
14 And the Lord God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
Yes, but in a remark in which He also calls Ephraim his helmet and Judah His sceptre. This doesn't sound like Israel is being wayward at this point but rather they are to be employed to to execute His wrath on those that are being wayward; Moab and Edom and Philistia. But only in His own good time, obviously.
If demons are the target of God's wrath there'll have a bit of trouble tormenting other humans as they'll be a bit preoccupied. Of course, I have now learn that you are using Hell for Sheol, which is different, because you currently lean towards annihilation as the final fate of they wicked. This seems to be something you do to reconcile your belief Melvin is correct in his report with you belief in ED. This is a bit of a problem because it goes against everything the Bible teaches about Sheol and demons. Demons are never presented anywhere but in possession of things in the Bible, except when they are between possessions. There's no evidence that demons ever go to Sheol in this age. They travel the Earth possession things or seeking things to possess. Sheol isn't presented as having demons in it ever.
I don't know what Jesus believed about demons and don't think it matters. He believed that He could heal people from the effects of what ever displayed as demon possession and sure enough He was right and was able to do so. Faith in the ability of the cure is more important than understand exactly what you're curing.
No, I don't believe Satan had a physical form in Eden because I don't believe in reading the Eden narrative literally.
I believe demons are very real. They are discussed many times in the Bible.
Demons are what we are in battle with, not other people. We are to love our fellow man (or woman), even if they are considered 'enemies'.
There are no real human enemies in God's kingdom.
Ephesians 6:
10Finally, be strong in the Lord and in His mighty power. 11Put on the full armor of God, so that you can make your stand against the devil's schemes. 12For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this world's darkness, and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.
I think demons try to convince us that they are not 'real'. That makes life much easier for them.
I don't think demons are going to torture people in the Lake of Fire, or wherever we go, after death. I do not believe we are tortured for the sake of revenge, but for the sake of correction, and to understand how our actions have ripples and consequences, both for us and for others.
Revenge is God's, but I don't believe God wants revenge, in our earthly way of viewing revenge. God wants to transform us into Christ-like creations. That is always His goal, and He does what He needs to do to that end. Love must be perfected in each of us.
D.
Quote from: CST on September 22, 2018, 02:05:58 PMI don't know what Jesus believed about demons and don't think it matters. He believed that He could heal people from the effects of what ever displayed as demon possession and sure enough He was right and was able to do so. Faith in the ability of the cure is more important than understand exactly what you're curing.
"I don't know what Jesus believed about demons"
Jesus believed that demons exist, and believed that demons cause people problems, and Jesus urged his followers to emulate his example in expelling demons. Have you ever expelled any demons?
Outline
woman with a spirit of infirmity preventing her from straightening up for 18 years
father's only son with demons of muteness, deafness, and suicide
heathen Canaanite woman's daughter vexed by a demon
man with demons of muteness and blindness
man with a demon
man with a demon of muteness
man with a Legion of demons prompting homelessness, nakedness, self-cutting, and unusual physical strength
girl with a spirit of divination
man with a demon behind unusual physical strength
general expulsions of demons
Jesus commissioning others to expel demons: the 12, the 70, and later generations of Christians
Glossary
rukha: wind, _spirit_, breath
unclean rukha: evil spirit, i.e. a demon
deewa: demon
shada: demon
woman with a spirit of infirmity preventing her from straightening up for 18 years
Lk 13 (based on Paul Younan, peshi+ta.org, dukhrana.com)
10. Now while Yeshua [Jesus] taught on the Shabbata [Sabbath] in one of the assemblies, 11. there was there a woman who had a rukha of infirmity eighteen years. And she was bent down and she was not able to straighten herself at all. 12. And Yeshua saw her and called her and said to her,
"Woman, you are freed from your infirmity."
13. And he placed his hand on her, and she straightened herself immediately and glorified Allaha. 14. But the leader of the assembly answered while he was angered because Yeshua had healed on the Shabbata, and said to the assembly, "Six are the days in which it is right to labor in them. You should come (and) be healed, but not on the day of the Shabbata." 15. But Yeshua answered and said to him,
"Hypocrite!
Does not each one of you on the Shabbata
loose his ox or his donkey from the stable
and goes (and) waters it?
16. And this (woman) because she is a daughter of Awraham,
and Akelqartza [the Accuser] has bound her behold eighteen years,
was it not right to free her from this bondage
on the day of the Shabbata?"
father's only son with demons of muteness, deafness, and suicide
Mt 17
14. And when they came towards the crowds, a man approached him and bowed down on his knees, 15. and said to him, "Mari [my lord], have mercy upon me, for my son-- who has a demon of lunacy and is badly afflicted-- many times he has fallen in the fire, and many times in water. 16. And I brought him to your talmida [students/disciples], and they were not able to heal him."
[PY had rendered one idiom present 'a devil.' The literal words are 'bar-agara'/ 'son of a rooftop/terrace,' which Lamsa interprets as being an epileptic and Errico interprets as being a lunatic. GB gives "my son has a lunatic demon." Hogg notes that the Syriac/Aramaic 'son of the roof' means 'demon of lunacy.']
17. Yeshua answered and said,
"Oh generation which is crooked and not mahaymina [faithful]!
Until when must I be with you?
And until when must I endure you?
Bring him here to me."
18. And Yeshua rebuked it, and the shada went out from him. And the boy was healed from that moment. 19. Then the talmida drew near towards Yeshua (while he was) alone and said to him, "Why were we not able to heal him?" 20. Yeshua said to them,
"Because of your unbelief.
For amain I say to you that
if (you) had faith in you like a grain of mustard seed,
you could say to this tuora [mountain],
'move away from here,' and it would move.
And not a thing would be able to prevail over you.
21. But this kind does not go out except by fasting and by prayer."
Mk 9
17. And one from the crowd answered and said, "Malpana [Teacher], I brought my son to you because he has a rukha that does not speak. 18. And whenever it overtakes him, it knocks him down and he foams (at the mouth) and gnashes his teeth and becomes paralyzed. And I asked your talmida to cast him out, and they were not able." 19. Yeshua answered and said to him,
"Oh generation that is not mahaymina [faithful]!
How long must I remain with you,
and how long must I endure you?
Bring him to me."
20. And they brought him to him and when the rukha saw him, it knocked him down at once, and he fell on the ground and was violently shaken and he foamed (at the mouth). 21. And Yeshua asked his father,
"How long has it been since he has been this way?"
He said to him, "Since his youth, 22. and many times it has cast him into the fire and into the water to destroy him. But whatever you are able (to do), have compassion on me and help me!" 23. Yeshua said to him,
"If you are able to believe,
anything is possible to be,
for him who believes."
24. And at once the abba [father] of the boy cried out while mourning and said, "I believe, mari [my lord]. Help the lack of my faith!" 25. And when the people that saw Yeshua ran and gathered around him, he rebuked that unclean rukha and said to him,
"Dumb rukha that does not speak,
I command that you come out from him,
and never enter him again!"
26. And that shada cried out greatly, and he bruised him and came out. And he was like a dead man so that many said that, "He is dead!" 27. But Yeshua took him by his hand and raised him. 28. Now when Yeshua entered the house, his talmida asked him privately, "Why were we not able to cast him out?" 29. He said to them,
"This kind is not able to be cast out by
anything except by fasting and by prayer."
Lk 9
37. And it happened (that) on the next day when they descended from the tuora [mountain], large crowds met up with them. 38. And a certain man from the crowd cried out and he said, "Malpana [Teacher], I beseech you, take notice of me! He is my only son to me, 39. and a rukha seizes him and suddenly he cries out and gnashes his teeth and foams, and with difficulty it departs from him when it has tormented him. 40. And I beseeched your talmida to cast it out, and they were not able." 41. And Yeshua answered and said,
"Oh generation that is not mahaymina [faithful] and is perverse!
How long must I be among you and endure you?
Bring your son here."
42. And while he was bringing him, that deewa cast him down and bruised him, and Yeshua rebuked that unclean rukha and he healed the boy and gave him to his father.
43. And all of them were amazed by the greatness of Allaha. ....
heathen Canaanite woman's daughter vexed by a demon
Mt 15
21. And Yeshua went out from there and came to the border of Tsur and of Tsidon. 22. And behold, a Canaanite woman from those borders came out while crying and saying, "Have mercy on me mari [my lord], the Son of Dawid. My daughter is seriously vexed by a shada." 23. But he did not answer her a word. And his talmida drew near beseeching him and saying, "Send her away because she cries after us." 24. But he answered and said to them,
"I have not been sent except to the sheep
which went astray from the house of Israel."
25. And she came (and) sagedt him [bowed or prostrated before him, perhaps in worship] and said, "Mari [my lord], help me!" 26. He said to her,
"It is not good to take the bread of the children
and to cast it to the dogs."
27. And she said, "Yes, mari [my lord], (but) even the dogs eat from the crumbs which fall from the tables of their masters and live." 28. Then Yeshua said to her,
"Oh woman! Great is your faith.
Let it be to you as you desire."
And her daughter was healed from that moment.
Mk 7
24. Yeshua arose from there and came to the border of Tsur and of Tsidon, and entered into a certain house, and was not desiring for anyone to know about him. And he was not able to hide himself. 25. For immediately a certain woman whose daughter had an unclean rukha heard about him, and she came (and) fell before his feet. 26. Now that woman was a kanapta [heathen/ foreigner] from Phoenicia in Syria, and was entreating him to cast out the shada from her daughter.[Greek manuscripts erroneously say the woman was Greek. This sets up an unnecessary contradiction with Mt 15:21+, where she is called a Canaanite.] 27. And Yeshua said to her,
"First allow the children to be satisfied,
for it is not right to take the bread of the children
and throw it to the dogs."
28. But she answered and said to him, "Yes mari [my lord], even the dogs eat from under the tables the crumbs of the children."
29. Yeshua said to her,
"Because of this word (you said), go.
The shada has gone out from your daughter."
30. And she went to her house and found her daughter lying on a pallet, and shadah [her shada] was gone from her.
man with demons of muteness and blindness
Mt 12
22. They then brought to him a certain possessed man who was mute and blind, and he healed him, so that the mute and blind man could speak and could see. 23. And all the crowds were marveling and were saying that, "Is this not the Son of Dawid?" 24. But when the Pharisees heard, they said, "This (man) does not cast out shada but by Baal-Zebub, the head of deewa." 25. But Yeshua knew their thoughts and said to them,
"Any kingdom
that is divided against itself
will be destroyed,
and any house and medintha [city]
that is divided against itself
will not stand.
26-28.
And if Satana casts out Satana,
he is divided against himself.
How then does his kingdom stand?
And if I cast out deewa by Baal-Zebub,
with what do your sons cast them out?
Because of this they will be judges to you.
And if by the Rukha of Allaha I cast out deewa,
the kingdom of Allaha has come near to you.
Lk 11
14. And as he was casting out a shada that was dumb, it happened that when that shada went out, that dumb man spoke and the crowds were amazed. 15. And some of them said, "This (man) casts out deewa by Baal-Zebub, the head of deewa." 16. But others while tempting him were asking (for) a sign from Heaven (from) him. 17. But Yeshua who was aware (of) their thoughts said to them,
"Every kingdom that is divided against itself
will become desolate,
and a house that is divided against its own nature
will fail.
18. And if Satana is divided against himself,
how will his kingdom stand?
Because you say that I cast out deewa by Baal-Zebub,
19. and if I cast out deewa by Baal-Zebub,
by whom do your sons cast (them) out?
Because of this they will be judges to you.
20. But if I cast out deewa by the finger of Allaha,
the Kingdom of Allaha, it is drawing near to you.
man with a demon
Mk 1
23. And there was a man in their assembly in whom was an unclean rukha, and he cried out 24. and said, "What have we to do with you, Yeshua the Nasraya? Have you come to destroy us? I know who you are. You are the Holy One of Allaha!" And Yeshua rebuked him and said,
"Shut your mouth,
and come out from him!"
25. And the unclean rukha threw him down and cried out in a loud voice and came out of him. 27. And all of them were astonished and were asking each other and saying that, "What is this, and what is this new teaching? For with shultana [authority] he even commands unclean rukha, and they obey him!"
Lk 4
33. And in the assembly there was a man who had in him a rukha of an unclean shada, and he cried out in a loud voice 34. and said, "Leave me alone! What have we to do with each other, Yeshua the Nasraya? Have you come to destroy us? I know who you are. You are the Holy One of Allaha!" 35. And Yeshua rebuked him and said,
"Shut your mouth
and come out from him!"
And the shada threw him down in the midst and departed from him, though he did not harm him at all. 36. And a great amazement seized every man, and they were speaking with one another and saying, "What indeed is this message, that with shultana [authority] and with power he commands unclean rukha and they depart?!"
man with a demon of muteness
Mt 9
32. And when Yeshua went out they brought a mute to him that had a deewa in him. 33. And after the deewa went out, that mute spoke and the crowds were amazed and they said, "Not ever has it been seen such in Israel." 34. But the Pharisees were saying, "He casts out deewa by the chief of deewa."
man with a Legion of demons prompting homelessness, nakedness, self-cutting, and unusual physical strength
Mt 8
28. And when Yeshua came to the other side, to the place of the Gadarenes, two possessed (ones) met him who were coming out from the cemetery-- very evil, so that no man was able to cross over by that way. 29. And they cried out and said, "What have we to do with each other, Yeshua, Son of Allaha? Have you come here before the time to torment us?" 30. And there was a distance from them a large herd of pigs that was feeding. 31. And these shada were beseeching him and said, "If you cast us out, allow us to go to the herd of pigs." 32. Yeshua said to them
"Go!"
and at once they went out and entered into the pigs, and all that herd went straight over a cliff and fell into the sea, and they died in the sea.
Mk 5
1. And he came to the other side of the sea, to the region of the Gadarenes. 2. And when he went out from the boat, a man who had an unclean rukha in him happened upon him from the cemetery, 3. and he was dwelling in the cemetery. And no man was able to bind him with chains, because whenever he was bound with fetters and with chains, he would break the chains and he would cut the fetters and no man was able to subdue him. 5. And always during the night and during the day he was in the cemetery and in the tuora [mountains], and he would cry out and cut himself with rocks. And when he saw Yeshua from afar, he ran (and) saged him.[ran and bowed or prostrated before him, perhaps in worship] 7. And he cried out with a loud voice and said, "What have I to do with you, Yeshua the Son of The Most High Allaha? I adjure you by Allaha that you not torment me." 8. For he was saying to him,
"Unclean rukha, come out from the man!"
9. And he asked him,
"What is your name?"
He said to him, "Our name is Legion, because we are many." 10. And he was entreating him greatly not to send him out of the country. 11. Now there was there a large herd of pigs that were feeding near the tuora [mountain]. 12. And those shada were entreating him and saying, "Send us upon those pigs that we might attack them." 13. And he permitted them, and those unclean rukha departed and attacked the pigs. And that herd ran to a steep place and fell into the sea, and about two thousand were drowned in the water.
Lk 8
27. And when he went out onto land, a certain man from the medintha [city] caught up to him in whom had been a deewa for a long time. And he would not wear clothing and he would not dwell in a house, but in the cemetery. 28. And when he saw Yeshua, he cried out and fell down before him and in a loud voice said, "What have we to do with each other, Yeshua, the Son of the Most High Allaha? I beseech you, do not torment me." 29. For Yeshua was commanding to him-- to the unclean rukha-- to go out from the man. For much time had passed since he was held captive by him. And he was bound with chains and he was restrained with bonds, but he would break his bonds and would be driven by the shada into the wilderness. 30. And Yeshua asked him,
"What is your name?"
He said to him, "Legion," because many deewa had entered into him. 31. And they were beseeching him that he would not command them to go to the abyss. 32. And there was there a herd of numerous swine that was feeding on the tuora, and they were beseeching him to permit them to enter into the swine. And he permitted them. 33. And the shada went out from the man and entered in the swine. And that whole herd rushed to a cliff and fell into the lake and they drowned.
girl with a spirit of divination
Acts 16
16. And it happened that while we were going to the house of prayer, a certain maiden met up with us who had a rukha of divination, and she made her masters much commerce by the divination that she was divining. 17. And she was following after Polous [Paul] and after us, and she was crying out and said, "These men are the servants of Him-- of Allaha the exalted! And they preach to you the path of life!" 18. And thus she was doing many days. And Polous was angered and said to her-- to that rukha-- "I command you to depart from her in the name of Yeshua the Meshikha [Messiah]!" And at that moment it departed.
man with a demon behind unusual physical strength
Acts 19 (NKJV, biblegateway.com)
11 Now God worked unusual miracles by the hands of Paul, 12 so that even handkerchiefs or aprons were brought from his body to the sick, and the diseases left them and the evil spirits went out of them. 13 Then some of the itinerant Jewish exorcists took it upon themselves to call the name of the Lord Jesus over those who had evil spirits, saying, "We exorcise you by the Jesus whom Paul preaches." 14 Also there were seven sons of Sceva, a Jewish chief priest, who did so. 15 And the evil spirit answered and said, "Jesus I know, and Paul I know; but who are you?" 16 Then the man in whom the evil spirit was leaped on them, overpowered them, and prevailed against them, so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded.
general expulsions of demons
Mt 8
16. Now when it became evening, they brought to him many possessed and he cast out their deewa by a word, and all of those that were badly afflicted-- he healed them, 17. so that might be fulfilled that which was spoken through Eshaya the nabia [prophet] who said that,
"He will take our sorrows
and he will bear our illnesses."
Mk 1
34. And he healed many who were severely diseased with diverse weaknesses. And he cast out many deewa, and he did not allow the deewa to speak, because they knew him. .... 39. And he would preach in all their assemblies in all (of) Galeela and cast out shada.
Lk 4
41. And also shada were departing from many, while crying out and saying that, "You are the Meshikha [Messiah], the Son of Allaha!" And he would rebuke them and he would not allow them to say that they knew that he was the Meshikha.
Acts 5
15. They brought out the sick while lying on pallets into the markets so that when Shimon [Simon Peter] should come, that at least his shadow might rest on them. 16. Now many came to them from other medintha [cities] that were around Urishlim while bringing the sick and those who had unclean rukha. And all of them were healed.
Jesus commissioning others to expel demons: the 12, the 70, and later generations of Christians
Mt 10:1, 8
And he called (on) his twelve talmida [students/disciples] and gave them shultana [authority] over unclean rukha, that they may cast them out, and to heal every affliction and disease. .... Heal the sick and cleanse the lepers and cast out deewa. Freely you have received, freely give.
Mk 6
7 And he called his twelve and began to send them two by two, and he gave them shultana over unclean rukha to cast (them) out. .... 12. And they went out and preached that (men) should repent. 13. And many shada were cast out, and they were anointing many (who were) sick with oil and they were healing them.
Lk 9
1. And Yeshua called his twelve and gave to them power and shultana [authority] over all shada and to heal sickness. 2. And he sent them to preach the Kingdom of Allaha and to heal the sick. .... 6. And the Shelikha [sent ones/ Apostles] departed and were going around in the villages and in the medintha and were preaching hope and healing in every place.
Lk 10
1. After these things, Yeshua appointed seventy from his other talmida [students/ disciples] and sent them two by two before his face to all regions and medintha that he was about to go (to). 2. And he said to them, ....
3. Go! Behold, I send you as sheep among wolves. ....
8. And into whatever medintha [city] that you enter,
and they receive you,
eat whatever that they set before you.
9. And heal those who are ill in it and say to them,
'The Kingdom of Allaha is (drawing) near to you.' ....
17. And those seventy whom he had sent returned with great joy and said to him, "Maran, even shada were subject to us by your name!" 18. And he said to them,
"I did see him, Satana, falling like lightning from heaven.
19. Behold, I give shultana [authority] to you
to be tread(ing) on snakes and scorpions and all the power of the enemy,
and nothing will harm you.
20. Nevertheless, do not rejoice in this, that shada are subject to you,
rather be glad that your names are written in heaven."
Mt 28
18. And Yeshua drew near and spoke with them and said to them,
"All shultana [authority] in heaven and on earth is given to me.
And as Abbi [my Father] has sent me,
I send you.
19. Go therefore (and) make talmida (of) all nations,
and baptize them in the name (of) Abba [the Father] and (of) the Son and (of) the Rukha d'Qudsha [Spirit of Holiness].
20. And teach them to keep all that I have commanded you.
And behold, I (am) with you all the days until the end of the ailma [world]."
Amain.
John 14
12. Amain, amain I say to you that,
whoever believes in me,
these works that I do,
he will do also,
and will do more than these,
because I go to Abba [the Father].
13. And whatever you ask in my name,
I will do for you,
that Abba might be glorified by His Son.
14. And if you ask of me in my name,
I will do it.
15. If you love me,
keep my commandments.
Mk 16
15. And he said to them,
"Go into all the ailma [world] and preach
my Sebartha [message of hope/ good news] to all of creation.
16. Whoever believes and is baptized will live,
and whoever does not believe will be condemned.
17. And these signs will follow those who believe in my name:
they will cast out shada
and they will speak in new tongues,
18. and they will handle serpents,
and if they should drink a deadly poison it will not harm them.
And they will place their hands on the sick,
and they will be healed."
Quote from: CST on September 22, 2018, 02:05:58 PMYes, but in a remark in which He also calls Ephraim his helmet and Judah His sceptre. This doesn't sound like Israel is being wayward at this point but rather they are to be employed to to execute His wrath on those that are being wayward; Moab and Edom and Philistia. But only in His own good time, obviously.
It sounds to me like the passage has God laying claim to _everybody_. God did, after all, make everybody. Including Satan.
Psalm 60 (NABRE)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm%2060&version=NABRE
8 [c]In the sanctuary God promised:
"I will exult, will apportion Shechem;
the valley of Succoth I will measure out.
9 Gilead is mine, mine is Manasseh;
Ephraim is the helmet for my head,
Judah, my own scepter.
10 [e]Moab is my washbowl;
upon Edom I cast my sandal.
I will triumph over Philistia."
60:8 I will...apportion...measure out: God lays claim to these places. The valley of Succoth: probably the lower stretch of the Jabbok valley.
60:10 ....Upon Edom I cast my sandal: an ancient legal gesture of taking possession of land.
Mt 22:21 (based on Younan), http://dukhrana.com
They were saying, "Casear." He said to them,
"Therefore give to Caesar that which is Casear's,
and to Allaha that which is Allaha's."
Lk 4
5. And Satana took him [Yeshua] up to a high tuora [mountain] and showed him all the kingdoms of the earth in a short period of time. 6. And Akelqartza said to him, "I will give to you all this shultana [authority] and shubkheh [its glory] that is delivered to me, and I can give it to whomever I desire. 7. If therefore thesagud [you prostrate yourself or bow down in worship] before me, all of it will be yours." 8. But Yeshua answered and said to him,
"It is written that,
thesagud [you should worship] MrYa [Master YHWH] Allahak [your Allaha],
and you should serve Him alone.'" QuoteIf demons are the target of God's wrath there'll have a bit of trouble tormenting other humans as they'll be a bit preoccupied.
Exactly. The demons tormenting humans in hell will at some point cease doing so. Hell will at some point cease to exist.
QuoteOf course, I have now learn that you are using Hell for Sheol, which is different, because you currently lean towards annihilation as the final fate of they wicked.
Different-- how so? When the NT was translated from Aramaic into Greek, 'hades' generally replaced 'sheol.'
QuoteThis seems to be something you do to reconcile your belief Melvin is correct in his report with you belief in ED.
These beliefs are consistent: demons are tormenting humans in hell, and those humans will at some point get into heaven.
These beliefs are consistent: demons are tormenting humans in hell, and those humans will at some point get annihilated.
QuoteThis is a bit of a problem because it goes against everything the Bible teaches about Sheol and demons. Demons are never presented anywhere but in possession of things in the Bible, except when they are between possessions. There's no evidence that demons ever go to Sheol in this age. They travel the Earth possession things or seeking things to possess. Sheol isn't presented as having demons in it ever.
What are some instances where "demons are... in possession of things in the Bible"?
"Sheol isn't presented as having demons in it ever"
There's far more to the spiritual world than what's explicitly stated in the Bible.
QuoteNo, I don't believe Satan had a physical form in Eden because I don't believe in reading the Eden narrative literally.
Do you think Jesus saw Satan falling like lightning from heaven?
Luke 10
17. And those seventy whom he had sent returned with great joy and said to him, "Maran [our Lord], even shada [demons] were subject to us by your name!" 18. And he [Yeshua] said to them,
"I did see him, Satana, falling like lightning from heaven.
19. Behold I give shultana [authority] to you
to be tread(ing) on snakes and scorpions and all the power of the enemy,
and nothing will harm you.
20. Nevertheless, do not rejoice in this, that shada are subject to you,
rather be glad that your names are written in heaven."
Quote from: Dandelion on September 22, 2018, 03:01:40 PM
I believe demons are very real. They are discussed many times in the Bible.
Demons are what we are in battle with, not other people. We are to love our fellow man (or woman), even if they are considered 'enemies'.
There are no real human enemies in God's kingdom.
Ephesians 6:
10Finally, be strong in the Lord and in His mighty power. 11Put on the full armor of God, so that you can make your stand against the devil's schemes. 12For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this world's darkness, and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.
I think demons try to convince us that they are not 'real'. That makes life much easier for them.
I don't think demons are going to torture people in the Lake of Fire, or wherever we go, after death. I do not believe we are tortured for the sake of revenge, but for the sake of correction, and to understand how our actions have ripples and consequences, both for us and for others.
Revenge is God's, but I don't believe God wants revenge, in our earthly way of viewing revenge. God wants to transform us into Christ-like creations. That is always His goal, and He does what He needs to do to that end. Love must be perfected in each of us.
D.
Yes, but that the problem when Jesus tells us to love our enemies and do good to those who persecute us so far as I can tell He doesn't restrict that to human enemies. There's nothing in the language that says it only means humans and, obviously, Satan and the demons are the primary persecutors of humanity. Yet we obviously conclude we aren't meant to do good for them because that would seem to mean helping them persecute people. Yet, I repeat, there is nothing, so far as I can tell, in the text of what Jesus says that restricts what He is saying to humans.
Disbelieving in demons shouldn't make it easy for them, we know this. It's disbelieving in God that makes it easy for them.
Quote from: DavidFord on September 22, 2018, 06:57:10 PM
Quote from: CST on September 22, 2018, 02:05:58 PMI don't know what Jesus believed about demons and don't think it matters. He believed that He could heal people from the effects of what ever displayed as demon possession and sure enough He was right and was able to do so. Faith in the ability of the cure is more important than understand exactly what you're curing.
"I don't know what Jesus believed about demons"
Jesus believed that demons exist, and believed that demons cause people problems, and Jesus urged his followers to emulate his example in expelling demons. Have you ever expelled any demons?
You can't just boldly claim that Jesus believed demons existed when you have the same evidence I do. And even if did I still suspect it was either due to the fact that the education of His society taught Him to believe in demons or because He had direct divine knowledge of demons which far supersedes our own. How are we supposed to believe in demons when the Bible doesn't even tell us what demons are?
And you don't need to throw all the biblical references to demons at me as if this will make me realise I'm wrong. When I entertain the possibility of demons I still don't believe they get the job of torturing humans postmortem. Why? Because they'd enjoy it too much.
No I haven't excised any demons, while is the technical term but I know of many doctors that have. Or at least they have done with medicine things that Jesus appeared to do by exorcism. The fact the the symptoms described my many demon possessions in the Bible look suspiciously like a lot of modern diseases we can now treat with drugs is more than a bit curious.
Again, don't believe in Satan. There are moral problems to me with God making the world, declaring it good and then filling it with enemies we are utterly incapable of fighting. All because one man disobeyed God. If God made the world good there should be no way for either Satan or demons to get in as they are of a direct order and should be cut off by their nature and origin. Otherwise there is a major flaw in the goodness of Earth.
The fact that the demons in Hell will at some point stop torturing human does not in any way overcome the moral and logical problems of the period where they do get to do it.
But 'Hades' isn't Hell. You've got to understand this. Gehenna is the closest term in the Bible we have to what we generally understand as Hell. In Greek Hades isn't Hell, Tartarus is Hell. Hades is this strange dark and miserable place we understand very little about. And the word may still be used as merely the closest one the Greeks have.
The only term is the New Testament that definitely describes or at least approximates the modern idea of Hell is 'lake of fire' which only appears in the book of Revelation at the end. The phrase 'eternal fire' (as usually translated) in Matthew is also usually taken to represent this idea and thus so is 'unquenchable fire' whenever it appears. But Gehenna and Hades must be separate things or there'd be no need to use both words even though they appear, occasionally, to become confused.
Erm, if you believe in annihilation you reject UR. If you believe in ED (Eternal Destruction) you believe that at the end of the period of punishment in Hell everyone there is finally destroyed. That's the proper ED belief.
If you're going to say there's more to the spirit word then stated in the Bible, you are going beyond the only authorised text we have and you can claim anything and just say it goes beyond the Bible. Then you don't need to provide reliable support for anything you claim. And can claim that God is actually awful and demons are lovely creatures He's picking on. Which is clearly nonsense.
As I said i don't believe in Satan, Jesus is using a text from Isaiah which usually refers to the King of Babylon to make a point about the defeat of evil. We know now that 'Heaven' isn't actually, literally 'up there', we've sent spaceships 'up there' and not found Heaven so it is not literally possible for Satan to fall from Heaven to Earth like that Jesus is speaking in parables as usual you need to discern what He is actually saying.
Quote from: CST on September 24, 2018, 12:11:42 PMYou can't just boldly claim that Jesus believed demons existed when you have the same evidence I do. And even if did I still suspect it was either due to the fact that the education of His society taught Him to believe in demons or because He had direct divine knowledge of demons which far supersedes our own. How are we supposed to believe in demons when the Bible doesn't even tell us what demons are?
I'm sure while he was growing up that Jesus was told demons exist, and I'm sure Jesus has "direct divine knowledge of demons which far supersedes our own." In the account below, with who or what did Jesus: ask its name? give permission to enter pigs?
Mk 5:8-9 For he [Jesus] was saying to him, "Unclean rukha [spirit], come out from the man!" And he [Jesus] asked him, "What is your name?" He said to him, "Our name is Legion, because we are many."
Lk 8:30-33 And Yeshua asked him, "What is your name?" He said to him, "Legion," because many deewa [demons] had entered into him. And they were beseeching him that he would not command them to go to the abyss. And there was there a herd of numerous swine that was feeding on the tuora [mountain], and they were beseeching him to permit them to enter into the swine. And he permitted them. And the shada [demons] went out from the man and entered in the swine. And that whole herd rushed to a cliff and fell into the lake and they drowned.
I claim the following:
1. Jesus believed he freed a woman that had been in physical bondage because of the Accuser. Reference:
Lk 13:16 (based on Younan, dukhrana.com)
And this (woman) because she is a daughter of Awraham, and Akelqartza [the Accuser] has bound her behold eighteen years, was it not right to free her from this bondage on the day of the Shabbata?"
2. Jesus believed he spoke to a spirit of muteness, and commanded that it leave a boy alone. Ref:
Mk 9:25 And when the people that saw Yeshua ran and gathered around him, he rebuked that unclean rukha and said to him, "Dumb rukha that does not speak, I command that you come out from him, and never enter him again!"
3. Jesus believed he delivered a woman's daughter from the oppression of a demon. Ref:
Mk 7:29. Yeshua said to her, "Because of this word (you said), go. The shada has gone out from your daughter."
4. Jesus believed that if he cast out demons by the finger of God, that demonstrated the coming of the Kingdom of God. Ref:
Lk 11:20 But if I cast out deewa by the finger of Allaha, the Kingdom of Allaha is drawing near to you.
5. Jesus believed it was necessary for him to tell his 12 disciples to expel demons. Ref:
Mt 10:1, 8
And he called (on) his twelve talmida [students/disciples] and gave them shultana [authority] over unclean rukha, that they may cast them out, and to heal every affliction and disease. .... Heal the sick and cleanse the lepers and cast out deewa. Freely you have received, freely give.
With who or what did Jesus have this conversation?:
Mt 4 (based on Paul Younan)
1. Then Yeshua was taken by the Rukha d'Qudsha [Spirit of Holiness] to the desert to be tempted by Akelqartza [the Accuser/ Slanderer/ Backbiter]. 2. And he fasted forty days and forty nights, and after which he hungered. 3. And he that was tempting approached and said to him, "If you (are) the Son of Allaha, say to these rocks, 'Become bread.'" 4. And he answered and said,
"(It) is written that,
'barnasha [man] does not live by bread alone,
but by all the words that proceed from the mouth of Allaha.'"
5. Then Akelqartza took him to the holy medintha [city] and raised him upon the edge of the temple 6. and said to him, "If you (are) the Son of Allaha, cast yourself down, for it is written that,
'His angels He commands concerning you,
and upon their hands they will bear you up,
that your foot should not strike upon a rock'."
7. Yeshua said to him,
"Again, it is written that,
'you shall not test MrYa [Master YHWH] Allahak [your Allaha].'"
8. Again Akelqartza took him to a tuora [mountain] that (was) very high and showed him all the kingdoms of the ailma [world] and shubkhen [their glory], 9. and said to him, "All these I (will) give to you if you will fall (and) thesagud [worship] me." 10. Then Yeshua said to him,
"Leave Satana [Adversary], for it is written that,
'thesagud [you shall worship] MrYa Allahak,
and Him alone thepalukh [you shall serve].'"
11. Then Akelqartza left him and behold, malaka [angels] approached and were ministering to him.
"Again, don't believe in Satan. There are moral problems to me with God making the world, declaring it good and then filling it with enemies we are utterly incapable of fighting. All because one man disobeyed God. If God made the world good there should be no way for either Satan or demons to get in as they are of a direct order and should be cut off by their nature and origin. Otherwise there is a major flaw in the goodness of Earth."
Do you believe: "God made the world good"? Adam and Eve disobeyed God?
"enemies we are utterly incapable of fighting"
Eph 6 (KJV)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians+6&version=KJV
11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. 12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. .... 17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God: 18 Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit....
Philippians 4:13 (NKJV)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=phil+4&version=NKJV
I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me.
James 4:7 (NKJV)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=James+4&version=NKJV
Therefore submit to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you.
Lk 22:31-32, 46 (based on Younan)
And Yeshua said to Shimon, "Shimon, behold, Satana wants to sift all of you like wheat. And I have prayed over you that your faith may not weaken. Also in time you will turn and strengthen your brothers." .... And he said to them, "Why, you are sleeping! Arise (and) pray lest you enter into temptation."
1 Samuel 17 (KJV)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+samuel+17&version=KJV
45 Then said David to the Philistine, Thou comest to me with a sword, and with a spear, and with a shield: but I come to thee in the name of the Lord of hosts, the God of the armies of Israel, whom thou hast defied. 46 This day will the Lord deliver thee into mine hand.... 47 And all this assembly shall know that the Lord saveth not with sword and spear: for the battle is the Lord's, and he will give you into our hands.
"Again, don't believe in Satan"
Are these correct statements?:
Satan never rebelled against God, because Satan never existed.
Satan never tempted Eve, because Satan never existed.
Satan never tested Jesus in the wilderness, because Satan never existed.
God never conversed with Satan about Job, because Satan never existed.
With who or what did God have the conversations below regarding Job?
Job 1 (NKJV)
9 So Satan answered the Lord and said, "Does Job fear God for nothing? 10 Have You not made a hedge around him, around his household, and around all that he has on every side? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions have increased in the land. 11 But now, stretch out Your hand and touch all that he has, and he will surely curse You to Your face!"
12 And the Lord said to Satan, "Behold, all that he has is in your power; only do not lay a hand on his person." So Satan went out from the presence of the Lord.
Job 2
4 So Satan answered the Lord and said, "Skin for skin! Yes, all that a man has he will give for his life. 5 But stretch out Your hand now, and touch his bone and his flesh, and he will surely curse You to Your face!"
6 And the Lord said to Satan, "Behold, he is in your hand, but spare his life."
7 So Satan went out from the presence of the Lord, and struck Job with painful boils from the sole of his foot to the crown of his head.
"As I said i don't believe in Satan, Jesus is using a text from Isaiah which usually refers to the King of Babylon to make a point about the defeat of evil. We know now that 'Heaven' isn't actually, literally 'up there', we've sent spaceships 'up there' and not found Heaven so it is not literally possible for Satan to fall from Heaven to Earth like that Jesus is speaking in parables as usual you need to discern what He is actually saying."
"Jesus is speaking in parables"
What's the meaning of Jesus' remark here?:
Lk 10:17-18 And those seventy whom he [Jesus] had sent returned with great joy and said to him, "Maran [our Lord], even shada [demons] were subject to us by your name!" And he said to them, "I did see him, Satana, falling like lightning from heaven.
Is this a parable, and if so, what's the meaning of this?:
Rev 12:7-9 (KJV)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation+12&version=KJV
And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
"No I haven't excised any demons, while is the technical term but I know of many doctors that have. Or at least they have done with medicine things that Jesus appeared to do by exorcism. The fact the the symptoms described my many demon possessions in the Bible look suspiciously like a lot of modern diseases we can now treat with drugs is more than a bit curious."
As far as you know, did Jesus dispense drugs to anyone?
Are you aware of any instances where doctors conversed a negotiation of the terms of a patient getting free from self-harming and severe anti-social behavior?
"If you're going to say there's more to the spirit word then stated in the Bible, you are going beyond the only authorised text we have and you can claim anything and just say it goes beyond the Bible. Then you don't need to provide reliable support for anything you claim."
I'll furthermore say that there's more to the physical world than what's stated in the Bible.
QuoteBut 'Hades' isn't Hell. You've got to understand this. Gehenna is the closest term in the Bible we have to what we generally understand as Hell. In Greek Hades isn't Hell, Tartarus is Hell. Hades is this strange dark and miserable place we understand very little about. And the word may still be used as merely the closest one the Greeks have.
The only term is the New Testament that definitely describes or at least approximates the modern idea of Hell is 'lake of fire' which only appears in the book of Revelation at the end. The phrase 'eternal fire' (as usually translated) in Matthew is also usually taken to represent this idea and thus so is 'unquenchable fire' whenever it appears. But Gehenna and Hades must be separate things or there'd be no need to use both words even though they appear, occasionally, to become confused.
"Tartarus is Hell"
Do you think some angels: sinned? are in Tartarus? are being "kept unto the judgment of torture"?
2 Peter 2:4 (KJV)
For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell [Greek: tartarosas], and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
interlinear
https://biblehub.com/interlinear/2_peter/2-4.htm
2 Peter 2:4 (from Aramaic), http://www.dukhrana.com
(Etheridge) For if Aloha upon the angels who sinned was not lenient,
but in chains of darkness shut them in the deeps,
and delivered them to be kept to the judgment of pain;
(Murdock) For, if God spared not the angels that sinned,
but cast them down to the infernal regions in chains of darkness,
and delivered them up to be kept unto the judgment of torture,
"'Hades' isn't Hell"
Do you agree with me that Jesus' story about the rich man and Lazarus has the rich man being tormented in flames in hades?
Luke 16 King James Version (KJV)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke+16&version=KJV
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell [Greek: hades] he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. ....
27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
"hades" in interlinear
https://biblehub.com/interlinear/luke/16-23.htm
I would also say for the existence of Satan and demons, that they are real, also due to experiences. Both mine(Don't want to get into it) and others, which I personally believe their testimonies. May not be "Scientifically provable" in most cases, but not everything is ultimately up to science anyway.
QuoteSatan never tested Jesus in the wilderness, because Satan never existed
The only other way you can really go with that is that Jesus had a carnal mind. That just brings a lot of bad and unbiblical things with that idea IMO.
Quote from: MusicLover123 on September 25, 2018, 01:04:55 AM
QuoteSatan never tested Jesus in the wilderness, because Satan never existed
The only other way you can really go with that is that Jesus had a carnal mind. That just brings a lot of bad and unbiblical things with that idea IMO.
I agree. Just doesn't work scripturally, IMO. Also, seems clear to me satan/the adversary - an actual being - did/does exist according to scripture.
Rev 15:3: God is king of the: ethnon? aionon? ailma?
Rev 15:3 (NASB)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%2015%3A3&version=NASB;NABRE;NIV
And they sang the song of Moses,
the bond-servant of God,
and the song of the Lamb, saying,
"Great and marvelous are Your works,
O Lord God, the Almighty;
Righteous and true are Your ways,
King of the [a]nations [Greek: ethnōn]!
Footnote: Two early mss read ages
interlinear
https://biblehub.com/interlinear/revelation/15-3.htm
Strong's Concordance 1484. ethnos
https://biblehub.com/greek/1484.htm
ethnos: a race, a nation, pl. the nations (as distinct from Isr.)
Original Word: ἔθνος, ους, τό
Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter
Transliteration: ethnos
Phonetic Spelling: (eth'-nos)
Short Definition: a race, people, the Gentiles
Definition: a race, people, nation; the nations, heathen world, Gentiles.
HELPS Word-studies
1484 éthnos (from ethō, "forming a custom, culture") – properly, people joined by practicing similar customs or common culture; nation(s), usually referring to unbelieving Gentiles (non-Jews).
3 of the Greek texts at
https://biblehub.com/texts/revelation/15-3.htm
have αἰώνων i.e. aiōnōn
Strong's Concordance 165. aión
https://biblehub.com/greek/165.htm
aión: a space of time, an age
Original Word: αἰών, ῶνος, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: aión
Phonetic Spelling: (ahee-ohn')
Short Definition: an age, a cycle of time
Definition: an age, a cycle (of time), especially of the present age as contrasted with the future age, and of one of a series of ages stretching to infinity.
HELPS Word-studies
165 aiṓn (see also the cognate adjective, 166 /aiṓnios, "age-long") – properly, an age (era, "time-span"), characterized by a specific quality (type of existence).
Example: Christians today live in the newer age (165 /aiṓn) of the covenant – the time-period called the NT.
Rev 15:3 (from Aramaic), http://dukhrana.com
(Etheridge) And they sang the song of Musha the servant of Aloha, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and wondrous are thy works, Lord God Omnipotent; Just and true are thy ways, King of ages [Aramaic: d'ailma]!
(Murdock) And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying: Great and marvellous are thy deeds, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, O King of worlds.
http://cal.huc.edu/oneentry.php?lemma=%28lm+N%20&cits=all
ˁlm, ˁlmˀ (ˁālam, ˁālmā) n.m. eternity; world ....
1 eternity (usually as a nomen rectum) Com. Dan3:33 : .... His kingdom is an eternal kingdom. TgO Gen48:4 : .... I shall give this land to your son after you as an eternal holding. BT Git 36b(25) : .... for future generations. (a) as an adv.: ˁd ˁlm, lˁlmˀ, lˁlmyn, lˁlmyˀ: forever Com. Sf.3 a25 : ʿd ʿlm . TAD B2.3 R.9 : .... . SamPap.6..11 : .... . Dan2:4 : .... long live the king!. PAT360:1.1 : lbryk šmh lʿlmʾ [and passim in Palm.] may his/her name be blessed forever. H 408:.7 : wmštmšyn bh lʿlm . 4QTQah 1,1:4 : .... He will provide joy and happiness for you by your offspring in the generations of Truth forever. (a.1) repeated as an expression of absolute foreverness Com. Dan7:18 : .... . (b) .... : the World to Come JBA, LJLA. TgJ 2Sam7:19 : .... .... [MT ....!]. BT Er 54b(50) : .... I want myself and my generation to merit the world to come. PJ Gen3:24 : .... walks on the pathways of life to the World to Come. (c) eternal ages past Com. Dan2:20 : .... 11 .... QtgJob 3.5=20:4 : .... [=MT ....].
2 world BT San 113a(49) : .... the world was suffering without rain. (a) an epoch Jud, CPA, Syr, JBA. P Mt24:21 . BhBS.E 047 : .... from the sea of this world ... to the isle of the world to come. (b) a place : this world Palmyrene, Qumran, Sam, Syr, JBA, LJLA. Hormizd 385 : .... they were wealthy with the riches of the world of transitory things. (c) adverbial usages with various prepositions (c.1) .... : wordly, of this life Syr. Rechts2 54:114[=1Cor 6:4] : .... if you have a case about something worldly. (c.2) .... : in a general way, merely JBA. BT Tan 22b(50) : .... and from where I! was up above it looked to me merely like an insect. 1 of any kind in the world LJLA, LJLAmag. PJ Lev26:24 : .... I shall treat you like any kind of accidental relationship. T.-S. K1.19 1:17 : .... for one who wants to open anything at all that is locked. (c.3) .... : from elsewhere, from somewhere or other JBA. BT Git 67b(40) : .... they cut off and brought one from somewhere or other. (c.4) .... : to elsewhere JBA. (c.5) anywhere, everywhere JBAg.
3 nation, people Syr. AphDem22.425:10 : .... . StudSin11 60a:13 : .... When the day had set and the whole nation was asleep. (a) pl. : wedding guests Syr. EphFid 14:4.2 : ....here has your pure wedding feast gladdened your guests.
Note the trajectory of development in the expressions for "forever" from ˁd ˁlm to lˁlm to lˁlmyn, etc.
In the Middle Aramaic (Palm., Qum.) expression .... as a divine epithet, it is unclear whether "eternity" or "this world" is intended.
Mng. 3a is uncertain; the mss. vary between....
Derivatives: ....
lˁlm, lˁlmyn (lˁālam, lˁālmīn) adv. forever
mn lˁlm adv. from of old
lˁlm ˁlmyn adv. forever and ever
mn ˁlm adv. since forever
ˁlym adj. eternal
ˁlm vb. D to call eternal
ˁwlm, ˁwlmˀ (ˁullām, ˁullāmā) v.n.D eternal life ....
ˁlmy (ˁālmāy) adj. secular, this wordly
ˁlmyw, ˁlmywtˀ (ˁālmāyū, ˁālmāyūṯā) n.f. this worldly state
ˁlmyny (ˁālmīnāy) adj. eternal
lˁlmyny (lˁālmīnāy) adj. eternal
ˁlmynˀyt (ˁālmīnāˀīṯ) adv. eternally
ˁlmynyw, ˁlmynywtˀ (ˁālmīnāyū, ˁālmīnāyūṯā) n.f. eternality
ˁlmny (ˁālmānāy) adj. terrestrial
In looking at the structure and content of the larger passage, I think d'ailma should be understood as 'of the peoples/nations.' "King of the age/s" doesn't fit nearly as well. So, aiōnōn is out, leaving ethnōn and ailma as contenders for being the original. Perhaps a translator of the Aramaic 'ailma' came up with ethnon, while another translator of 'ailma' came up with aionon.
Rev 15:3-4 (Murdock)
And they sing
the song of Moses the servant of God,
and the song of the Lamb, saying:
Great and marvellous are thy deeds,
Lord God Almighty;
just and true are thy ways,
O King of worlds [d'ailma: of: worlds/ ages/ the world/ the age/ nations/ peoples/ the nation/ the people].
Who shall not fear thee, O Lord,
and glorify thy name?
Because thou only art holy and just:
Because all nations [aimma: peoples/nations] shall come and worship before thee,
since thy righteousnesses have been revealed.
PDF http://www.bibletranslation.ws/trans/revwgrk.pdf
291 15:3 .... The evidence is fairly evenly split between the readings "nations" and
"ages." Even family 052 is divided, though with the majority thereof supporting "ἐθνῶν."
Quote from: MusicLover123 on September 25, 2018, 01:04:55 AM
I would also say for the existence of Satan and demons, that they are real, also due to experiences. Both mine(Don't want to get into it) and others, which I personally believe their testimonies. May not be "Scientifically provable" in most cases, but not everything is ultimately up to science anyway.
QuoteSatan never tested Jesus in the wilderness, because Satan never existed
The only other way you can really go with that is that Jesus had a carnal mind. That just brings a lot of bad and unbiblical things with that idea IMO.
I will play devils advocate (haha!)
What was the point of God becoming man aka jesus?
God could have just spoke to someone as a burning bush again and passed along what Jesus taught, right? And the cross, that was for our benefit IMO, because God could have again spoken through the burning bush and said that the old law was over, now it's the age of grace etc.
IMO I have read and thought about this and at this time I believe that God became Jesus for many reasons and some are:
Because Jesus could be an example to humans about HOW to live our life
Because then humans could KNOW and SEE God's love
But again couldn't God have accomplished this without becoming human?
So why did God come as a human?
So he could show to us that he was willing to subject himself to all that we endure in this world, including suffering, pain, and temptation.
So while Jesus was fully God and fully man, he could experience all that we experience, so we could never say God doesn't know what it is like to be human or to live on earth amongst this imperfection.
So to me it doesn't seem "bad" to say that Jesus wrestled with carnality and won EVERY time.
I don't know what I believe as far as demons and such but I don't think anyone truly knows here on earth. The Bible is plainly clear on some things and not so much on other points, and I tend to think that it is because we aren't meant to know.
Is it possible that some of the demons the people were cured of by Jesus were physical ailments? Why in modern times do we treat epilepsy, muteness, blindness, and scoliosis medically and get results but those were called demons in the Bible? If today my child had those symptoms I would pray of course but I would also bring them to doctors and specialists. Is it possible our understanding of what a demon is has changed since biblical times? In today's world those who believe in demons don't usually attribute demons to medical illness but to things like temptation to sin and possesion and influencing people to do evil. Maybe some of the examples in the Bible are spiritual/demonic ailments such as the legion/pig example and others are physical and either way the important part isn't the nature of the ailment it is the fact that JESUS HEALS everything through FAITH and LOVE.
So it is belief in and trusting in Him that matters, IMO.
All thoughts are my opinion right now.
Quote from: GodIsLove on September 25, 2018, 04:42:12 AM
Quote from: MusicLover123 on September 25, 2018, 01:04:55 AM
I would also say for the existence of Satan and demons, that they are real, also due to experiences. Both mine(Don't want to get into it) and others, which I personally believe their testimonies. May not be "Scientifically provable" in most cases, but not everything is ultimately up to science anyway.
QuoteSatan never tested Jesus in the wilderness, because Satan never existed
The only other way you can really go with that is that Jesus had a carnal mind. That just brings a lot of bad and unbiblical things with that idea IMO.
I will play devils advocate (haha!)
What was the point of God becoming man aka jesus?
God could have just spoke to someone as a burning bush again and passed along what Jesus taught, right? And the cross, that was for our benefit IMO, because God could have again spoken through the burning bush and said that the old law was over, now it's the age of grace etc.
IMO I have read and thought about this and at this time I believe that God became Jesus for many reasons and some are:
Because Jesus could be an example to humans about HOW to live our life
Because then humans could KNOW and SEE God's love
But again couldn't God have accomplished this without becoming human?
So why did God come as a human?
So he could show to us that he was willing to subject himself to all that we endure in this world, including suffering, pain, and temptation.
So while Jesus was fully God and fully man, he could experience all that we experience, so we could never say God doesn't know what it is like to be human or to live on earth amongst this imperfection.
So to me it doesn't seem "bad" to say that Jesus wrestled with carnality and won EVERY time.
I don't know what I believe as far as demons and such but I don't think anyone truly knows here on earth. The Bible is plainly clear on some things and not so much on other points, and I tend to think that it is because we aren't meant to know.
Is it possible that some of the demons the people were cured of by Jesus were physical ailments? Why in modern times do we treat epilepsy, muteness, blindness, and scoliosis medically and get results but those were called demons in the Bible? If today my child had those symptoms I would pray of course but I would also bring them to doctors and specialists. Is it possible our understanding of what a demon is has changed since biblical times? In today's world those who believe in demons don't usually attribute demons to medical illness but to things like temptation to sin and possesion and influencing people to do evil. Maybe some of the examples in the Bible are spiritual/demonic ailments such as the legion/pig example and others are physical and either way the important part isn't the nature of the ailment it is the fact that JESUS HEALS everything through FAITH and LOVE.
So it is belief in and trusting in Him that matters, IMO.
All thoughts are my opinion right now.
To add to that, will be a couple things.
I guess one of the biggest reasons is to show how
much God really loves us. To show, since the Father cannot die, has His Son lay down His life, that "
I love you so much that I would die for you."
Joh 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.
Joh 15:13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
Eph 3:14 For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,
Eph 3:15 of whom the whole family in the heavens and on earth is named,
Eph 3:16 that He may give to you, according to the riches of His glory, with might to be strengthened through His Spirit, in regard to the inner man,
Eph 3:17
that the Christ may dwell through the faith in your hearts, in love having been rooted and founded,
Eph 3:18
that ye may be in strength to comprehend, with all the saints, what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height,
Eph 3:19
to know also the love of the Christ that is exceeding the knowledge, that ye may be filled—to all the fulness of God;
Eph 3:20 and to Him who is able above all things to do exceeding abundantly what we ask or think, according to the power that is working in us,
Eph 3:21 to Him is the glory in the assembly in Christ Jesus, to all the generations of the age of the ages. Amen.
Rom 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
Rom 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Surprise! This is Tabernacle language too. That was an awesome revelation, along with finding this passage, but that is another discussion to do.
Gal 2:20 with Christ I have been crucified, and live no more do I, and Christ doth live in me; and that which I now live in the flesh—in the faith I live of the Son of God, who did love me and did give himself for me
I heard another reason is so that people could not say that God is a hypocrite, that He tells us to do all these things yet hasn't even done it Himself.
Yes! Good post ML! I love it when two or more people post and we all just add to each other's posts.
It reminds me of "Wherever two or more are gathered in my name..."
Quote from: DavidFord on September 25, 2018, 12:26:38 AM
Quote from: CST on September 24, 2018, 12:11:42 PMYou can't just boldly claim that Jesus believed demons existed when you have the same evidence I do. And even if did I still suspect it was either due to the fact that the education of His society taught Him to believe in demons or because He had direct divine knowledge of demons which far supersedes our own. How are we supposed to believe in demons when the Bible doesn't even tell us what demons are?
I'm sure while he was growing up that Jesus was told demons exist, and I'm sure Jesus has "direct divine knowledge of demons which far supersedes our own." In the account below, with who or what did Jesus: ask its name? give permission to enter pigs?
Since I don't know what 'came out' of the man I can't say what Jesus excised. What did people present 'see' when the demon came out? I don't know I this causes me to check myself in what I understand a demon to be and if there really are such things of if it's just a name give to a certain order of conditions that make life particularly challenging.
As for the rest your ridiculous number of quotes are making it hard for me to follow what you are saying.
Ok, let's try and edit these down and respond.
Quote from: DavidFord on September 25, 2018, 12:26:38 AM
I claim the following:
1. Jesus believed he freed a woman that had been in physical bondage because of the Accuser. Reference:
2. Jesus believed he spoke to a spirit of muteness, and commanded that it leave a boy alone. Ref:
3. Jesus believed he delivered a woman's daughter from the oppression of a demon. Ref:
4. Jesus believed that if he cast out demons by the finger of God, that demonstrated the coming of the Kingdom of God. Ref:
5. Jesus believed it was necessary for him to tell his 12 disciples to expel demons.
"Again, don't believe in Satan. There are moral problems to me with God making the world, declaring it good and then filling it with enemies we are utterly incapable of fighting. All because one man disobeyed God. If God made the world good there should be no way for either Satan or demons to get in as they are of a direct order and should be cut off by their nature and origin. Otherwise there is a major flaw in the goodness of Earth."
Do you believe: "God made the world good"? Adam and Eve disobeyed God?
"enemies we are utterly incapable of fighting"
Eph 6 (KJV)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians+6&version=KJV
11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. 12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. .... 17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God: 18 Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit....
Philippians 4:13 (NKJV)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=phil+4&version=NKJV
I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me.
James 4:7 (NKJV)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=James+4&version=NKJV
Therefore submit to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you.
Lk 22:31-32, 46 (based on Younan)
And Yeshua said to Shimon, "Shimon, behold, Satana wants to sift all of you like wheat. And I have prayed over you that your faith may not weaken. Also in time you will turn and strengthen your brothers." .... And he said to them, "Why, you are sleeping! Arise (and) pray lest you enter into temptation."
1 Samuel 17 (KJV)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+samuel+17&version=KJV
45 Then said David to the Philistine, Thou comest to me with a sword, and with a spear, and with a shield: but I come to thee in the name of the Lord of hosts, the God of the armies of Israel, whom thou hast defied. 46 This day will the Lord deliver thee into mine hand.... 47 And all this assembly shall know that the Lord saveth not with sword and spear: for the battle is the Lord's, and he will give you into our hands.
"Again, don't believe in Satan"
Are these correct statements?:
Satan never rebelled against God, because Satan never existed.
Satan never tempted Eve, because Satan never existed.
Satan never tested Jesus in the wilderness, because Satan never existed.
God never conversed with Satan about Job, because Satan never existed.
First, did Jesus believe He had done things things in the sense we would understand Him having done these things? Because that's a very important question
Most of us don't have access to exorcists, they're pretty thin on the ground these days and people with demons tend to be in no position to seek them themselves. This is my first problem with demons. Real demons can actively seek people out and injure then I have a huge moral problem with this.
Yes, God made the world good but that's a big part of my problem. I don't literally believe in Adam and Eve either but if they existed I doubt that God put it into their hands to so ruin the world the way them seem to have under this reason. God called the world good and it remains so even though we do much bad and evil.
People with demons tend to incline against doing the things described in though verses which makes them hard to for them to fight.
In answer to your question about those four things, yes. Satan doesn't literally exist so didn't literally do those things. when Satan appears in the Bible however he represents something, not always the same thing, and what he represents does exist.
Time has beaten me again so i'll continue this later.
Quote from: CST on September 25, 2018, 07:48:41 PMMost of us don't have access to exorcists, they're pretty thin on the ground these days and people with demons tend to be in no position to seek them themselves. This is my first problem with demons. Real demons can actively seek people out and injure then I have a huge moral problem with this.
Do you think people should be mindful of the existence of an adversary looking for people to devour?
1Peter 5:8
(Etheridge) Watch, and be mindful, because your adversary Satana,
as a lion, roareth and walketh and seeketh whom he may devour.
(Murdock) Be sober and guarded, because Satan your adversary,
like a lion, roareth, and goeth about, and seeketh whom he may devour.
Jn 10:10 (based on Younan)
A thief does not come but that (he) may steal and kill and destroy.
I have come that they may have life,
and they may have something which is abundant.
Jn 8:44
You are from the abba [father] Akelqartza.
And the lusts of your father you want to do,
he who from the beginning killed men.
And he does not stand in truth
because there is no truth in him.
When he speaks a falsehood,
he speaks from himself
because he (is) a liar, even its father.
QuoteI don't literally believe in Adam and Eve either but if they existed I doubt that God put it into their hands to so ruin the world the way them seem to have under this reason. God called the world good and it remains so even though we do much bad and evil.
Do you think Jesus existed?
Do you think Jesus _wasn't_ a descendant of Adam?
Luke 3:38 (KJV)
https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?qs_version=KJV&quicksearch=adam&begin=47&end=73
Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.
Do you think Adam _didn't_ sin?
Rom 5:14
Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses,
even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression,
who is the figure of him that was to come.
Do you think it's _not_ the case that "in Adam all die"?
1 Cor 15:22
For as in Adam all die,
even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1 Cor 15:45
And so it is written,
The first man Adam was made a living soul;
the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
Quote....Satan doesn't literally exist so didn't literally do those things. when Satan appears in the Bible however he represents something, not always the same thing, and what he represents does exist.
With what did Michael contend about Moses' body?
Jude 1:9
(Etheridge) Yet Mikael, chief of angels, when, with the accuser [Aramaic: Akelqartza] speaking, he contended on account of the body of Musha, dared not bring against him a reviling judgment, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.
(Murdock) But Michael the archangel, who, in debate with the Accuser, contended about the body of Moses, did not venture to bring against him a reviling declaration; but said, The Lord will rebuke thee.
What was Judas influenced by here?:
Jn 13:2
And when supper was done, it was placed by him-- by Satana-- into the heart of Yehuda, the son of Shimon Skaryota, that he would betray him [Yeshua].
Jn 13:26. ....And Yeshua dipped the bread and gave (it) to Yehuda, the son of Shimon Skaryota. 27. And after the bread, Satana then entered in him. And Yeshua said to him, "The thing that you do, do quickly."
Lk 22:3 And Satana had entered into Yehuda who was called Skaryota, who was from the number of the twelve.
What was Ananias influenced by here?:
Act 5:3
And Shimon said to him, "Khanan-Yah [i.e. Ananias], why is it that Satana has filled your heart thus that you should lie in (the presence of) the Rukha d'Qudsha, and that you should hide some of the money of the proceeds of the field?
Jesus appeared that he might destroy the works of what, in your view?
1John 3:8 (Murdock)
And he that committeth sin, is of Satan;
because Satan was a sinner from the beginning:
and for this cause, the Son of God appeared,
that he might destroy the works of Satan.
Do you think it's possible to give the Accuser a foothold by holding onto anger?
Eph 4:26-28 (Etheridge)
Be angry and sin not, and let not the sun set upon your wrath,
and give no place to the accuser [Aramaic: Akelqartza].
And let him who hath stolen henceforth steal not,
but labour with his hands and do good,
that he may have to give to him who needeth.
Aramaic verses that contain akel (or some variation thereof, e.g. akli or aklin) + qartza = Slanderer/ Accuser/ slanderer/ slander/ eater of the broken/ eater of ridicule
Mt 4:1, 4:5, 4:8, 4:11, 25:41
Lk 4:2, 4:3, 4:6, 4:13, 13:16
John 8:44, 18:29
Acts 13:10
Romans 1:30
2Cor 12:20
Eph 4:27, 6:11
1Tim 3:11
2Tim 3:3
Titus 2:3
1Peter 2:1
Jude 1:9
Rev 2:10, 12:9, 12:12, 20:2, 20:10
Aramaic verses that contains lexeme 1:2112 Satana
Mt 4:10, 12:26, 13:39, 16:23
Mk 1:13, 3:23, 3:26, 4:15, 8:33
Lk 4:5, 10:18, 11:18, 22:3, 22:31
Jn 6:70, 13:2, 13:27
Acts 5:3, 26:18
Romans 16:20
1Cor 5:5, 7:5
2Cor 2:11, 6:15, 11:14, 12:7
1Thess 2:18
2Thess 2:9
1Tim 1:20, 3:6, 3:7, 5:15
2Tim 2:26
Hebr 2:14
James 4:7
1Peter 5:8
1John 3:8, 3:10
Rev 2:9, 2:13, 2:24, 3:9, 12:9, 20:2, 20:7
Aramaic verses that contains lexeme 1:437 baal-d'baba i.e. lord/master of enmity: enemy/enemies
Mt 5:43, 5:44, 10:36, 13:25, 13:28, 13:39, 22:44
Mk 12:36
Lk 1:71, 1:74, 6:27, 6:35, 8:12, 10:19, 19:27, 19:43, 20:43, 21:15
Acts 2:35, 13:10
Rom 5:10, 11:28, 12:20
1Cor 15:25, 15:26
Gala 4:16
Philippians 3:18
Col 1:21
2Thess 3:15
1Tim 5:14
Hebr 1:13, 10:13, 10:27, 11:34
James 4:4
1Peter 5:8
Rev 11:5, 11:12
For 2 Cor 6:15, Greek mss. have Βελίαλ (Belial) and Βελίαρ (Beliar)
https://biblehub.com/texts/2_corinthians/6-15.htm
which is a transliteration of the Hebrew word Belial.
Strong's Exhaustive Concordance Belial.
https://biblehub.com/greek/955.htm
Of Hebrew origin (bliya'al); worthlessness; Belial, as an epithet of Satan -- Belial.
see HEBREW bliya'al
Strong's Concordance 1100. beliyyaal
https://biblehub.com/hebrew/1100.htm
beliyyaal: worthlessness
Original Word: בְּלִיַּ֫עַל
Part of Speech: Noun Masculine
Transliteration: beliyyaal
Phonetic Spelling: (bel-e-yah'-al)
Short Definition: worthless
Quote from: jabcat on September 25, 2018, 03:08:57 AM
Quote from: MusicLover123 on September 25, 2018, 01:04:55 AM
QuoteSatan never tested Jesus in the wilderness, because Satan never existed
The only other way you can really go with that is that Jesus had a carnal mind. That just brings a lot of bad and unbiblical things with that idea IMO.
I agree. Just doesn't work scripturally, IMO. Also, seems clear to me satan/the adversary - an actual being - did/does exist according to scripture.
:thumbsup:
I like this account (for many reasons):
Luke chapter 13:
10 And he was teaching in one of the synagogues on the sabbath,
11 and lo, there was a woman having a spirit of infirmity eighteen years, and she was bowed together, and not able to bend back at all,
12 and Jesus having seen her, did call [her] near, and said to her, `Woman, thou hast been loosed from thy infirmity;'
13 and he laid on her [his] hands, and presently she was set upright, and was glorifying God.
14 And the chief of the synagogue answering -- much displeased that on the sabbath Jesus healed -- said to the multitude, `Six days there are in which it behoveth [us] to be working; in these, then, coming, be healed, and not on the sabbath-day.'
15 Then the Lord answered him and said, `Hypocrite, doth not each of you
on the sabbath loose his ox or mule from the stall, and having led away, doth water [it]?
16 and this one, being a daughter of Abraham, whom the Adversary - 4567. Satanas ►an adversary - bound, lo, eighteen years, did it not behove to be loosed from this bond on the sabbath-day?'
I think it benefits our understanding a lot to read all of the verses of a certain thing.. So being of an enquiring mind..
Strong's Greek 4567
36 Occurrences ..but I left out repeat verses which were of the same account of something.
Matthew 4:10
NAS: to him, Go, Satan! For it is written, (using NAS - easiest to copy/paste from the list - https://biblehub.com/greek/4567.htm
Matthew 12:26 (2 occurrences)
NAS: If Satan casts out Satan, (if "the" adversary casts out "the" adversary" the interlinear word for word says "the adversary" - https://biblehub.com/interlinear/matthew/12-26.htm)
Matthew 16:23
NAS: behind Me, Satan! You are a stumbling block - to Peter, acting as adversary..
Mark 1:13
NAS: being tempted by Satan; and He was with the wild beasts, [(3588 [e] tou) = the (4567 [e] Satana) adversary - https://biblehub.com/interlinear/mark/1-13.htm
Mark 3:23 (2 occurrences)
NAS: How can Satan cast out Satan? (no "the" but "how is able satan, satan to cast out..)
Mark 3:26
NAS: If Satan has risen up against himself [1438. heautou ►of himself, herself, itself - Matthew 16:24 NAS: follow Me, he must deny
himself, and take..] -- the whole verse - And if Satan / "the" adversary has risen up against himself and has been divided, he is not able to stand, but is coming to an end. - https://biblehub.com/interlinear/mark/3-26.htm
Why should Jesus speak like this if the adversary is a part of our self? Why not simply say so?! Metaphor to me, sometimes simply seems uncalled for and, or makes a lot less sense.Mark 4:15
NAS: immediately Satan comes - in the parable of the sower and seed, some seed falls by the wayside.. interlinear "immediately
comes the adversary and takes away the word having been sown
in them - https://biblehub.com/interlinear/mark/4-15.htm
Luke 10:18
NAS: And He said to them, "I was watching Satan fall from heaven like lightning.. https://biblehub.com/interlinear/luke/10-18.htm
Luke 22:3
NAS: And Satan entered into Judas - https://biblehub.com/interlinear/luke/22-3.htm
Luke 22:31
NAS: Simon, behold, Satan has demanded to have you to sift like wheat - https://biblehub.com/interlinear/luke/22-31.htm
Acts 5:3
NAS: Ananias why has Satan filled - https://biblehub.com/interlinear/acts/5-3.htm
Acts 26:18
NAS: and
from the
dominion of
Satan to God, - https://biblehub.com/interlinear/acts/26-18.htm
Romans 16:20
NAS: will soon crush Satan under your feet. - https://biblehub.com/interlinear/romans/16-20.htm
1 Corinthians 5:5
NAS: such a one to Satan for the destruction - https://biblehub.com/interlinear/1_corinthians/5-5.htm
:Chinscratch: "
to deliver such a one to Satan for destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord. ..the sifting like wheat.. (making "satan demanded" to be a figure of speech or metaphor?)
1 Corinthians 7:5
NAS: so that Satan will not tempt you - marital advice/instructions - https://biblehub.com/interlinear/1_corinthians/7-5.htm
2 Corinthians 2:11
NAS: advantage would be taken of us by Satan, for we are not ignorant - https://biblehub.com/interlinear/2_corinthians/2-11.htm
:mshock:
so that we should not be outwitted by Satan; for we are not ignorant of his schemes2 Corinthians 11:14
NAS: for even Satan disguises - (
And no wonder, for ("the") Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light.) - https://biblehub.com/interlinear/2_corinthians/11-14.htm
2 Corinthians 12:7
NAS: a messenger of Satan to torment, Paul's "thorn in his flesh" to keep him humble he said - https://biblehub.com/interlinear/2_corinthians/12-7.htm
1 Thessalonians 2:18
NAS: once-- and [yet] Satan hindered - https://biblehub.com/interlinear/1_thessalonians/2-18.htm -
"Therefore we wanted to come to you--indeed I Paul, both once and twice--and Satan hindered us."
Quote from: CST on September 25, 2018, 07:48:41 PMMost of us don't have access to exorcists, they're pretty thin on the ground these days and people with demons tend to be in no position to seek them themselves. This is my first problem with demons. Real demons can actively seek people out and injure then I have a huge moral problem with this.
Isn't it the same though with things people do to other people? Horrors of war.. Genocides.. And all horrors of 'lesser' and greater, or that is of all ranges.. There are humans who actively seek out others in order to injure them! Even to kill.. It's my belief the tree of knowing good and evil is all the possibilities which come about when you endow thinking ability. But until someone plucked from it..
all was okay, even "good". But consider this, thinking ability (surely?) includes with it, the ability to make choices. (Not the choice of redemption, that is God's choice - the when for all.)
Doesn't that change everything? Unless He were to block it, I suppose.. Then what? How would you create enduring incorruptible perfection? Create only animals, plants, flowers and only very small children? Both angel and human?
:Peace2: :gsmile:
(Only puppies, kittens, butterflies and babies? -- sounds kind of good! :laughing7: )
Quote from: DavidFord on September 25, 2018, 12:26:38 AM
With who or what did God have the conversations below regarding Job?
"As I said i don't believe in Satan, Jesus is using a text from Isaiah which usually refers to the King of Babylon to make a point about the defeat of evil. We know now that 'Heaven' isn't actually, literally 'up there', we've sent spaceships 'up there' and not found Heaven so it is not literally possible for Satan to fall from Heaven to Earth like that Jesus is speaking in parables as usual you need to discern what He is actually saying."
"Jesus is speaking in parables"
What's the meaning of Jesus' remark here?:
Lk 10:17-18 And those seventy whom he [Jesus] had sent returned with great joy and said to him, "Maran [our Lord], even shada [demons] were subject to us by your name!" And he said to them, "I did see him, Satana, falling like lightning from heaven.
Is this a parable, and if so, what's the meaning of this?:
Rev 12:7-9 (KJV)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation+12&version=KJV
And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
"No I haven't excised any demons, while is the technical term but I know of many doctors that have. Or at least they have done with medicine things that Jesus appeared to do by exorcism. The fact the the symptoms described my many demon possessions in the Bible look suspiciously like a lot of modern diseases we can now treat with drugs is more than a bit curious."
As far as you know, did Jesus dispense drugs to anyone?
Are you aware of any instances where doctors conversed a negotiation of the terms of a patient getting free from self-harming and severe anti-social behavior?
"If you're going to say there's more to the spirit word then stated in the Bible, you are going beyond the only authorised text we have and you can claim anything and just say it goes beyond the Bible. Then you don't need to provide reliable support for anything you claim."
I'll furthermore say that there's more to the physical world than what's stated in the Bible.
QuoteBut 'Hades' isn't Hell. You've got to understand this. Gehenna is the closest term in the Bible we have to what we generally understand as Hell. In Greek Hades isn't Hell, Tartarus is Hell. Hades is this strange dark and miserable place we understand very little about. And the word may still be used as merely the closest one the Greeks have.
The only term is the New Testament that definitely describes or at least approximates the modern idea of Hell is 'lake of fire' which only appears in the book of Revelation at the end. The phrase 'eternal fire' (as usually translated) in Matthew is also usually taken to represent this idea and thus so is 'unquenchable fire' whenever it appears. But Gehenna and Hades must be separate things or there'd be no need to use both words even though they appear, occasionally, to become confused.
"Tartarus is Hell"
Do you think some angels: sinned? are in Tartarus? are being "kept unto the judgment of torture"?
2 Peter 2:4 (KJV)
For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell [Greek: tartarosas], and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
interlinear
https://biblehub.com/interlinear/2_peter/2-4.htm
2 Peter 2:4 (from Aramaic), http://www.dukhrana.com
(Etheridge) For if Aloha upon the angels who sinned was not lenient,
but in chains of darkness shut them in the deeps,
and delivered them to be kept to the judgment of pain;
(Murdock) For, if God spared not the angels that sinned,
but cast them down to the infernal regions in chains of darkness,
and delivered them up to be kept unto the judgment of torture,
"'Hades' isn't Hell"
Do you agree with me that Jesus' story about the rich man and Lazarus has the rich man being tormented in flames in hades?
Luke 16 King James Version (KJV)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke+16&version=KJV
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell [Greek: hades] he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. ....
27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
"hades" in interlinear
https://biblehub.com/interlinear/luke/16-23.htm
Right, continuing.
I've said this before somewhere but, to me, in the book of Job, Satan represents Job's enemies. These are also his (false) friends who are increasingly unhelpful to him during the course of the book. These people are envious of Job and have brought complaints about him to God. Satan represents these complaints. I have come to this conclusion because Satan disappears from the text once he's all but got his way. After this the three 'friends' appear and try to get Job to deny his righteousness and do all sorts of other things he shouldn't do. Basically the sort of things Satan wants Job to do. Satan never appears again but the 'friends' are upbraided by God at the end. Hence why I suspect they are actually the same.
Oh, my! Finish the quote:
'And He said to them, I saw Satan fall like lightening from heaven. Behold, I have given you authority to tread upon serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy; and nothing shall hurt you.
Nevertheless do not rejoice in this, that the spirits are subject to you; but rejoice that your names are written in heaven."
I suspect the serpents and scorpions may well not be literal here. To go from demons to serpents and scorpions seems a bit of a downward step. Even I can tread on and crush scorpions and serpents if I'm quick enough but I think it safer not to try. But note the part at the end I have highlighted, I think it's quite curious that a. Jesus has them prioritise there place in heaven in their rejoicing and b. when Jesus gives His answer He doesn't say 'demons' He says 'spirits'. Obviously a much broader term. Of course, Jesus does use the word demons but here He appears to be correcting the disciples and the fact He doesn't use the word 'demons' is curious.
Do you believe Satan is an actual dragon? What is an actual dragon doing in heaven, there are none on Earth. The dragon is symbolic of something so is Satan. It doesn't mean Satan is either a literal dragon or anything you might think he is.
Did Jesus distribute drugs to anyone? Wow, well that's a straw man is ever I aw one and i'm not even sure where you're going with it. Why would Jesus need to distribute drugs when the power of God worked perfectly well? That doesn't mean the disease is different, that's a non-sequitur. Luke was a physician maybe you should ask him about drugs.
And I suspect what you are describing is what psychiatrists do, so yes I know of some examples, in theory.
Well, obviously there's more to the physical world than is stated in the Bible. The Bible isn't a science book or a geography book and doesn't cover the full scope of our planet. It is, however, concerned with our spiritual welfare and some equip us for maintaining is sufficiently. A lack of proper information on demons is a pretty big lack to me.
If the fallen angels are in Tartarus, they are somewhere different from the dead in Sheol/Hades aren't they? So I would expect some difference in the state they are in. But obviously your Aramaic doesn't say that, so you don't. Another reason to suspect that the Bible perhaps should properly be in Greek because the Aramaic appears to have no equivalent to 'Tartarus'
I've a lot to say about the story of the Rich Man and Lazarus but it would go beyond the scope of this discussion. Suffice is to say, it is the only place in the whole of the New Testament where Hades appears to conflate with Gehenna like this and, most importantly, the Rich man is being torment by flame not demons. No demons are recorded as being present nor so far as we can tell did the Rich man spend his life burning people to death, so in the only major picture of the afterlife we have in the Bible where we actually see what happens to people, there are no demons present and the person involved is not receiving something he distributed to others. Huge arguments against your theory here.
Quote from: marie glen on September 26, 2018, 04:04:17 AM
Quote from: CST on September 25, 2018, 07:48:41 PMMost of us don't have access to exorcists, they're pretty thin on the ground these days and people with demons tend to be in no position to seek them themselves. This is my first problem with demons. Real demons can actively seek people out and injure then I have a huge moral problem with this.
Isn't it the same though with things people do to other people? Horrors of war.. Genocides.. And all horrors of 'lesser' and greater, or that is of all ranges.. There are humans who actively seek out others in order to injure them! Even to kill.. It's my belief the tree of knowing good and evil is all the possibilities which come about when you endow thinking ability. But until someone plucked from it.. all was okay, even "good". But consider this, thinking ability (surely?) includes with it, the ability to make choices. (Not the choice of redemption, that is God's choice - the when for all.)
Doesn't that change everything? Unless He were to block it, I suppose.. Then what? How would you create enduring incorruptible perfection? Create only animals, plants, flowers and only very small children? Both angel and human?
:Peace2: :gsmile:
(Only puppies, kittens, butterflies and babies? -- sounds kind of good! :laughing7: )
Ah, no! That's the problem. Humans are humans on a path to redemption, God loves them and is patient with them when they do wicked things in the hope they will eventually turn away from them. If a human mistreats me i generally have some defence though justice sometimes fails.
But I don't believe in UR for demons because demons are always presented as being utterly evil and cannot be redeemed. It is their nature to be evil and they take absolute pleasure from causing harm to humans and only from causing pain to humans. It is what they exist for and I have a major moral problem with this.
Quote from: MusicLover123 on September 25, 2018, 01:04:55 AM
QuoteSatan never tested Jesus in the wilderness, because Satan never existed
The only other way you can really go with that is that Jesus had a carnal mind. That just brings a lot of bad and unbiblical things with that idea IMO.
Ah, but to me that's precisely the problem. According to the popular model of the incarnation is has been decided that in Jesus, God is both fully human and fully divine (this, of course, is debated). But in the age Jesus came all full humans had a carnal mind and, as I understand having this carnal mind is why humans are susceptible to temptation. So when Jesus is tempted in the desert I can only see this one of two ways:
Jesus is capable, theoretically, of being tempted. In which case what's the problem with saying He has a carnal mind? The point here is that He is able to repeatedly and consistently overcome it, surely? Or,
Jesus is not capable of being tempted. In which case how is it remotely meaningful to say Satan tempted Him and He resisted? The former option seems more plausible here.
Jesus teaches that: "...every one who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart." (Matthew 5:28) This is some sort of hyperbole, surely? Here Jesus seems to suggest that the temptation to sin is equal to the sin its self but if that's so how can Jesus be legitimately tempted to sin but not actually sin? Which He obviously didn't do. Why?
I suspect it's because despite this warning resisting the temptation to sin still matters a lot.
Quote
by David Ford
“'Hades' isn't Hell”
Do you agree with me that Jesus’ story about the rich man and Lazarus has the rich man being tormented in flames in hades?
This verse is really making me think of shadow and shades.. that what's called "outer darkness" (hades
?! Culminating in, ultimately, the grave, the "place and realm of the dead"?) will exist on Judgment 'Day'.. That in the bible, hades is the shadowy realm of sin.. which wages is death. The whole thing = hades(?) Which such - "missing the mark" is translated as, and what we understand to be, "sin" / 'wrong-ness'. After 2nd resurrection ("the rest of the dead rise not until the thousand years are ended" The thousand years, age 1 following Jesus' return?) Then all the not yet saved rising to a "resurrection of judgment". -- The church fell into superstition and tagged onto this the idea of simply dumping everyone into a hell of never-ending torment. But Jesus talked about the queen of the south rising up in judgment against the generation of pharisees and priests who killed Jesus on Judgment 'Day'.. And said Sodom and Gomorrah will rise up against the cities that rejected Him on Judgment 'Day' for they would have repented if what happened in those cities had happened in Sodom and Gomorrah.. I believe hades is the "outer darkness" is sin, is the abyss/dark pit (which turns out to be the grave also :Chinscratch: but I can't remember what verse.. Isaiah 14, right after the worms being the king of Babylon's bed and covering at his 'end'/where he will end up. Believed to be a type of 'Satan', but not by others.)
I think this also because of parables Jesus told about a supper and told the pharisees and high priests that they would see many come from the 4 winds and sit down at the supper but they themselves will be "cast out". When studying on this, through prayer, etc, I read something which said on holy days, the feasts were brightly lit and one was happy to be at the feast/supper.. Included.. and to be inside, in the light, and at the feast, and you were most un-fortunate if you found yourself outside the feast, in the outside darkness..
:Chinscratch: Now that I think about it again.. It's the flames! That are (imo) metaphor. :Peace2:
QuoteBut I don't believe in UR for demons because demons are always presented as being utterly evil and cannot be redeemed
Phillipians 2
10That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth
Isaiah 45
23By myself I have sworn,
my mouth has uttered in all integrity
a word that will not be revoked:
Before me every knee will bow;
by me every tongue will swear.
24They will say of me, 'In the Lord alone
are deliverance and strength.'
Romans 14
11It is written:
" 'As surely as I live,' says the Lord,
'every knee will bow before me;
every tongue will acknowledge God.'
1 Corinthians 15
28And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
Psalm 103
9He will not always chide: neither will he keep his anger for ever.
Micah 7
18Who is a God like unto thee, that pardoneth iniquity, and passeth by the transgression of the remnant of his heritage? he retaineth not his anger for ever, because he delighteth in mercy.
Don't see any exclusion here.
Quote
Satan never tested Jesus in the wilderness, because Satan never existed.
:Chinscratch: I come down on the side of believing Satan is a fallen creature. One who was endowed with rationality, which turns out to be the whole 'Pandora's box'. Jesus said He saw Satan / the adversary fall like lightning.. Revelation 12 says Michael and his angels fought against the dragon / slanderer and his angels (then the dragon enraged [again, 1st time 70a.d.] persecuted/inquisitioned(?) the faith, but it was given the 2 wings of an eagle.. sorry.. a favorite wormhole/bible prophecy..
What a thrilling story! I don't believe it's metaphor. Why bother? I never seriously consider something as metaphor if the metaphor has already been openly taught about in the scriptures.. Why make the carnal mind into a whispery, fruedian thing..? (That guy was kind of nuts you know.) The carnal mind
is a whispery, freudian thing.. but we don't need an elaborate metaphor or myth of fallen rebel angels to communicate it, so it doesn't sound logical to me.
I believe it all from Genesis to Revelation as literal. (Even if Revelation is portrayed via symbols, metaphor, orchestra, seals, trumpets, flames.. well, the flames I do not believe are metaphor, until the 'after' life ages.. oh dear, I'm starting to babble big time..)
----------------
Jesus saw satan / the adversary fall from heaven like lightning.. the dragon stood in front of the woman (virgin) to devour the manchild (son of man; via herod the great) -- I go into this to show the dragon cannot be the un or sub conscious mind of man -- This is the dragon which swept 1/3 of the stars - see last verse Rev 1 "the stars are angels" - with his tail
Now do I think he swept the angels out of heaven or the heavens (?) with his tail? No. I do not. But I do think 1/3 of God's angels followed him in his rebellion.
:Chinscratch: So... why did God choose that very moment - pretty much - to create the 'earthly' universe and man and woman? What could possibly go wrong? Or that is to say, didn't He know what would happen? (Trickery, sedition.) Of course He did.
:cloud9: He is so wise.
Meanwhile.. the manchild/Son of man is caught up (yes, harpazo.. but we "meet Jesus at His coming" not ascend up to God's right hand(imo). And so, foiled, the dragon is enraged and pursues the faith (70 a.d.) but the faith flees.. relocates.. migrates..
[Revelation 12, awesome chapter, amazing. An insert & total history.]
..Then war breaks out in heaven, the war between Michael & angels and dragon & angels.. Michael & angels win.. dragon&co are no longer allowed access to the heavens..
-- "
So the great dragon was cast out,
that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan,
who deceives the whole world;
he was cast to the earth,
and his angels were cast
out with him."
He, "god of this world" is like totally ticked off now.. so he "persecutes the woman" / inqusitions the faith, but she is given the two wings of an eagle to fly (sail?) to a new place.. safe from the dragon's face ( :Chinscratch: ) for 3.5 division of time.. then the serpent guise of the dragon vomits a flood after the faith trying to wash it from off the Earth.
But the Earth will swallow the flood.
Then the dragon will turn his attention (back?) to her other children "who have the commandments of God and (by then?) the testimony of Jesus", ("you will not see Me again, Jerusalem
until you say, blessed is He who comes in the name of the LORD"
to make war against them - Revelation 16:14,15,16 "3 frogs go out to gather the kings to war against God, blessed are those attired, for Jesus comes like a thief. And they gather to Armageddon/Gehenna Valley"
Revelation 13 is an insert alongside 12. [Rev 14 two harvests, [1]wheat and [2]grapes of wrath/tares at Gehenna Valley -- (the 2nd "angel came out from the altar, who had power over
fire, and he cried with a loud cry to him who had the sharp sickle, saying, “Thrust in your sharp sickle and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth, for her
grapes are fully ripe.” 19 So the angel thrust his sickle into the earth and gathered the vine of the earth, and threw it into the great winepress (metaphor for Gehenna Valley/H'armageddon) of the
wrath of God. 20 And the winepress was trampled outside the city, and blood came out of the winepress, up to the horses’ bridles, for one thousand six hundred furlongs."
War.
Yes, I think man wars with God. But I think "dark" spirit forces, principalities and powers of the heavenly/spiritual realm, that is, the rebel scheming angels working behind the scenes (hidden/want to be hidden), keep it from taking half of forever..
I think letting the adversary and his angels be the first to wander off from God / His will (thinking ability includes choice) - That there are rebel spirits, I think, really escalates the whole process.. quickens it, a sort of let's get it over with.
That's my :2c: anyway..
:Peace2:
Quote from: marie glen on September 26, 2018, 03:52:11 AMMatthew 16:23
NAS: behind Me, Satan! You are a stumbling block - to Peter, acting as adversary..
....
1 Corinthians 5:5
NAS: such a one to Satan for the destruction - https://biblehub.com/interlinear/1_corinthians/5-5.htm
:Chinscratch: "to deliver such a one to Satan for destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord. ..the sifting like wheat.. (making "satan demanded" to be a figure of speech or metaphor?)
....
2 Corinthians 2:11
NAS: advantage would be taken of us by Satan, for we are not ignorant - https://biblehub.com/interlinear/2_corinthians/2-11.htm
:mshock: so that we should not be outwitted by Satan; for we are not ignorant of his schemes
Re: 2 Cor 2:11, only intelligent entities are capable of scheming, and Satan is an intelligent, very crafty, creature.
For Mt 16:23, Jesus isn't calling Peter _the_ Satan, but rather, satan i.e. adversary.
For 1 Cor 5, I think taking 'satan' as _the_ Satan is too strong a take on the word, and think Paul's remark should be understood as, 'deliver him to adversaries,' as in people outside the church. The overall point of 1 Cor 5 is that the sexually-immoral guy calling himself a Christian ought get booted from 'Christians-only' groups, and handled as if he were a pagan.
1 Cor 5 (KJV)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+cor+5&version=KJV
1 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife. 2 And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you. 3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed, 4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. 6 Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump? 7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us: 8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth. 9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators: 10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world. 11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolator, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat. 12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within? 13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.
Quote from: marie glen on September 26, 2018, 03:52:11 AM16 and this one, being a daughter of Abraham, whom the Adversary - 4567. Satanas ►an adversary - bound, lo, eighteen years, did it not behove to be loosed from this bond on the sabbath-day?'
I think it benefits our understanding a lot to read all of the verses of a certain thing.. So being of an enquiring mind..
For that passage, the Aramaic has not Satana, but rather Akelqartza, i.e. Slanderer/ Accuser/ Eater of the Broken.
Luke 13 (based on Younan), http://dukhrana.com
10. Now while Yeshua taught on the Shabbata in one of the assemblies, 11. there was there a woman who had a rukha [spirit] of infirmity eighteen years. And she was bent down and she was not able to straighten herself at all. 12. And Yeshua saw her and called her and said to her,
"Woman, you are freed from your infirmity."
13. And he placed his hand on her, and she straightened herself immediately and glorified Allaha. 14. But the leader of the assembly answered while he was angered because Yeshua had healed on the Shabbata, and said to the assembly, "Six are the days in which it is right to labor in them. You should come (and) be healed, but not on the day of the Shabbata." 15. But Yeshua answered and said to him,
"Hypocrite!
Does not each one of you on the Shabbata
loose his ox or his donkey from the stable
and goes (and) waters it?
16. And this (woman) because she is a daughter of Awraham,
and Akelqartza has bound her behold eighteen years,
was it not right to free her from this bondage
on the day of the Shabbata?"
17. And while he was saying these things, all of those who opposed him were ashamed, and all the people were rejoicing at all the wonders that were occurring by his hand.
Aramaic verses that contain akel (or some variation thereof, e.g. akli or aklin) + qartza = Slanderer/ Accuser/ slanderer/ slander/ eater of the broken/ eater of ridicule
Mt 4:1, 4:5, 4:8, 4:11, 25:41
Lk 4:2, 4:3, 4:6, 4:13, 13:16
John 8:44, 18:29
Acts 13:10
Romans 1:30
2Cor 12:20
Eph 4:27, 6:11
1Tim 3:11
2Tim 3:3
Titus 2:3
1Peter 2:1
Jude 1:9
Rev 2:10, 12:9, 12:12, 20:2, 20:10.
Quote from: marie glen on September 26, 2018, 09:13:58 PM
This verse is really making me think of shadow and shades.... Now that I think about it again.. It's the flames! That are (imo) metaphor.
Do you think merely-metaphorical flames could prompt someone suffering-pain i.e. in torment beg for a drop of water?
Luke 16 (DLNT)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke+16&version=DLNT
....And the rich man also died and was buried. 23 And having lifted-up his eyes in Hades while being in torments, he sees Abraham from a-distance, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 And he, having called, said, 'Father Abraham, have-mercy-on me and send Lazarus in order that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool-off my tongue, because I am suffering-pain in this flame'. .... warn them in order that they also might not come to this place of torment'.
Sheol in NABRE
https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=sheol&qs_version=NABRE&limit=500
Proverbs 9:18
Little do they know that the shades are there,
that her guests are in the depths of Sheol!
Isaiah 14:9
Below, Sheol is all astir preparing for your coming;
Awakening the shades to greet you,
all the leaders of the earth;
Making all the kings of the nations
rise from their thrones.
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/Lazarus-byHuie.htm
Quote from: marie glen on September 26, 2018, 10:04:57 PM
Quote
Satan never tested Jesus in the wilderness, because Satan never existed.
:Chinscratch: I come down on the side of believing Satan is a fallen creature. One who was endowed with rationality, which turns out to be the whole 'Pandora's box'. Jesus said He saw Satan / the adversary fall like lightning.. Revelation 12 says Michael and his angels fought against the dragon / slanderer and his angels (then the dragon enraged [again, 1st time 70a.d.] persecuted/inquisitioned(?) the faith, but it was given the 2 wings of an eagle.. sorry.. a favorite wormhole/bible prophecy..
What a thrilling story! I don't believe it's metaphor. Why bother? I never seriously consider something as metaphor if the metaphor has already been openly taught about in the scriptures.. Why make the carnal mind into a whispery, fruedian thing..? (That guy was kind of nuts you know.) The carnal mind is a whispery, freudian thing.. but we don't need an elaborate metaphor or myth of fallen rebel angels to communicate it, so it doesn't sound logical to me.
I believe it all from Genesis to Revelation as literal. (Even if Revelation is portrayed via symbols, metaphor, orchestra, seals, trumpets, flames.. well, the flames I do not believe are metaphor, until the 'after' life ages.. oh dear, I'm starting to babble big time..)
----------------
Jesus saw satan / the adversary fall from heaven like lightning.. the dragon stood in front of the woman (virgin) to devour the manchild (son of man; via herod the great) -- I go into this to show the dragon cannot be the un or sub conscious mind of man -- This is the dragon which swept 1/3 of the stars - see last verse Rev 1 "the stars are angels" - with his tail
Now do I think he swept the angels out of heaven or the heavens (?) with his tail? No. I do not. But I do think 1/3 of God's angels followed him in his rebellion.
:Chinscratch: So... why did God choose that very moment - pretty much - to create the 'earthly' universe and man and woman? What could possibly go wrong? Or that is to say, didn't He know what would happen? (Trickery, sedition.) Of course He did.
:cloud9: He is so wise.
Meanwhile.. the manchild/Son of man is caught up (yes, harpazo.. but we "meet Jesus at His coming" not ascend up to God's right hand(imo). And so, foiled, the dragon is enraged and pursues the faith (70 a.d.) but the faith flees.. relocates.. migrates..
[Revelation 12, awesome chapter, amazing. An insert & total history.]
..Then war breaks out in heaven, the war between Michael & angels and dragon & angels.. Michael & angels win.. dragon&co are no longer allowed access to the heavens..
-- "So the great dragon was cast out,
that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan,
who deceives the whole world;
he was cast to the earth,
and his angels were cast
out with him."
He, "god of this world" is like totally ticked off now.. so he "persecutes the woman" / inqusitions the faith, but she is given the two wings of an eagle to fly (sail?) to a new place.. safe from the dragon's face ( :Chinscratch: ) for 3.5 division of time.. then the serpent guise of the dragon vomits a flood after the faith trying to wash it from off the Earth.
But the Earth will swallow the flood.
Then the dragon will turn his attention (back?) to her other children "who have the commandments of God and (by then?) the testimony of Jesus", ("you will not see Me again, Jerusalem until you say, blessed is He who comes in the name of the LORD" to make war against them - Revelation 16:14,15,16 "3 frogs go out to gather the kings to war against God, blessed are those attired, for Jesus comes like a thief. And they gather to Armageddon/Gehenna Valley"
Revelation 13 is an insert alongside 12. [Rev 14 two harvests, [1]wheat and [2]grapes of wrath/tares at Gehenna Valley -- (the 2nd "angel came out from the altar, who had power over fire, and he cried with a loud cry to him who had the sharp sickle, saying, "Thrust in your sharp sickle and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth, for her grapes are fully ripe." 19 So the angel thrust his sickle into the earth and gathered the vine of the earth, and threw it into the great winepress (metaphor for Gehenna Valley/H'armageddon) of the wrath of God. 20 And the winepress was trampled outside the city, and blood came out of the winepress, up to the horses' bridles, for one thousand six hundred furlongs."
War.
Yes, I think man wars with God. But I think "dark" spirit forces, principalities and powers of the heavenly/spiritual realm, that is, the rebel scheming angels working behind the scenes (hidden/want to be hidden), keep it from taking half of forever..
I think letting the adversary and his angels be the first to wander off from God / His will (thinking ability includes choice) - That there are rebel spirits, I think, really escalates the whole process.. quickens it, a sort of let's get it over with.
That's my :2c: anyway..
:Peace2:
Do you believe that Satan is literally, a great, red (fire-like) dragon, with wings that once flew around Heaven cooking and/or eating God's angels? Because if you don't it's difficult to claim Satan is 'literally' anything.
Quote from: DavidFord on September 27, 2018, 03:28:01 AM
Quote from: marie glen on September 26, 2018, 03:52:11 AMMatthew 16:23
NAS: behind Me, Satan! You are a stumbling block - to Peter, acting as adversary..
....
1 Corinthians 5:5
NAS: such a one to Satan for the destruction - https://biblehub.com/interlinear/1_corinthians/5-5.htm
:Chinscratch: "to deliver such a one to Satan for destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord. ..the sifting like wheat.. (making "satan demanded" to be a figure of speech or metaphor?)
....
2 Corinthians 2:11
NAS: advantage would be taken of us by Satan, for we are not ignorant - https://biblehub.com/interlinear/2_corinthians/2-11.htm
:mshock: so that we should not be outwitted by Satan; for we are not ignorant of his schemes
Re: 2 Cor 2:11, only intelligent entities are capable of scheming, and Satan is an intelligent, very crafty, creature.
For Mt 16:23, Jesus isn't calling Peter _the_ Satan, but rather, satan i.e. adversary.
For 1 Cor 5, I think taking 'satan' as _the_ Satan is too strong a take on the word, and think Paul's remark should be understood as, 'deliver him to adversaries,' as in people outside the church. The overall point of 1 Cor 5 is that the sexually-immoral guy calling himself a Christian ought get booted from 'Christians-only' groups, and handled as if he were a pagan.
1 Cor 5 (KJV)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+cor+5&version=KJV
1 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife. 2 And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you. 3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed, 4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. 6 Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump? 7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us: 8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth. 9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators: 10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world. 11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolator, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat. 12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within? 13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.
But that's the problem. It's easy to say 'satan' doesn't mean 'Satan' whenever it doesn't suit you so what's to stop you saying 'satan' never means 'Satan?
Quote from: DavidFord on September 27, 2018, 03:46:41 AM
For that passage, the Aramaic has not Satana, but rather Akelqartza, i.e. Slanderer/ Accuser/ Eater of the Broken.
Hmm, yeah, in Greek that would usually be 'diabolos' (the Devil) so the distinction isn't that great unless you have reason to question whether the two word always refer to the same thing which you clearly seem to.
Greetings!
QuoteCONCLUSION
The parable of Lazarus and the rich man, long used by mainstream ministers to teach the reality of "hell," really has nothing to say about punishment or reward in the afterlife. Christ used this story, which fit the common misconception about life after death in his day, to show the fate that awaited the Jewish nation because of the unbelief and faithlessness which led them to reject him as the Messiah.
Well, yes, if one has a certain doctrine to establish then the above, is true for such people. And if it keeps them from selfishness and sinning, then Christ's parable has served its purpose for them.
However, on the contrary to the above conclusion, as interesting as it is, I believe that Christ used "the common belief about life after death in His day" (not "misconception") to quite simply warn each and every human being as to punishment and reward in the Afterlife – "Simple" being the operative word. I believe that Christ spoke this parable to provide the full gist of its meaning as a warning to take heed of ignoring the plight of others - not to lessen its impact with theological harmonisation.
Personally, I would say, yes, it is a metaphorical story in the sense that not everyone who is selfish like the rich man finds themselves in an identical scenario – but rather they endure the discomfort similar to the discomfort they caused to others. Sometimes the only way for a selfish person to learn is to experience the agony that they cause to others through their own selfishness, whether ignorantly or intentionally, and whether through commission or omission. Once they have learnt through expiation (they must learn to love all humanity equally, not just close family) then it is onward and upward for them. I see no good reason to minimise the impact of such a state simply because there are others who refer to this as a permanent hellish state.
Again, returning to simplicity, I believe that this is simply a warning for
each and everyone to benefit from – young, old, educated, illiterate, simple or intellectual -
even if they have never heard of the house of Judah.
I think it can be taken for granted that the Pharisees could count up to six, and one brother plus five brothers equals six brothers. Therefore, it's a bit if a stretch to name the first selfish brother to find himself alive and conscious in horrific surroundings as the house of Judah – he
wasn't the father of the other five. Indeed, if the rich man had said: "I have five sons", then the theory would have had had more credence, in my opinion.
Speaking of Simple, as were all things of Christ, I believe that it is safe to remember how Jesus condensed and declared the law of Moses and the prophets:
Matthew 22:36-40
36 'Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?'
37 Jesus replied: '"Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind." 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: "Love your neighbour as yourself." 40
All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.'
Is it too simple?
Snip-- nice.
Quote from: lastpost on September 27, 2018, 08:05:20 PMSpeaking of Simple, as were all things of Christ, I believe that it is safe to remember how Jesus condensed and declared the law of Moses and the prophets:
Matthew 22:36-40
36 'Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?'
37 Jesus replied: '"Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind." 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: "Love your neighbour as yourself." 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.'
Is it too simple?
It's very simple, but hard to do. If all those who call themselves followers of Christ did that consistently, this world would be a much better place.
Mt 22:36-40 (based on Younan)
36. "Malpana [Teacher], which commandment in the namusa [law] is greatest?" 37. And Yeshua said to him,
"That you should love MrYa [Master YHWH] Allahak [your Allaha]
with all your heart and with all your soul
and with all your might and with all your mind.'
38. This is the first and the greatest commandment.
39. And the second is like it:
that you should love your neighbor as yourself.'
40. On these two commandments hang the Aurayta [Torah] and the nabia [prophets]."
Did Titus 3:9 originally mention the: law? Scribes?
Titus 3:9 (NKJV)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=titus%203%3A9&version=NKJV;NASB;NABRE
But avoid foolish disputes, genealogies,
contentions, and strivings about the law;
for they are unprofitable and useless.
Titus 3:9 (from Aramaic) http://dukhrana.com
(Murdock) But foolish questions, and stories of genealogies,
and the disputes and contests of the scribes [Aramaic: Sapra], avoid:
for there is no profit in them, and they are vain.
Semiticism: "house of Israel"
Do you think the book of Hebrews, which contains 2 instances of the Semiticism "house of Israel" while quoting the OT, was originally composed in Greek?
https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch="house+of+israel"&qs_version=KJV&limit=500
147 Bible results for ""house of israel"."
6 instances in the NT
https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?qs_version=KJV&quicksearch="house+of+israel"&begin=47&end=73&limit=500
Matthew 10:6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Matthew 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Acts 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
Acts 7:42 Then God turned, and gave them up to worship the host of heaven; as it is written in the book of the prophets, O ye house of Israel, have ye offered to me slain beasts and sacrifices by the space of forty years in the wilderness?
Hebrews 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
Hebrews 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
Quote from: lastpost on September 27, 2018, 08:05:20 PM
Greetings!
QuoteCONCLUSION
The parable of Lazarus and the rich man, long used by mainstream ministers to teach the reality of "hell," really has nothing to say about punishment or reward in the afterlife. Christ used this story, which fit the common misconception about life after death in his day, to show the fate that awaited the Jewish nation because of the unbelief and faithlessness which led them to reject him as the Messiah.
Well, yes, if one has a certain doctrine to establish then the above, is true for such people. And if it keeps them from selfishness and sinning, then Christ's parable has served its purpose for them.
However, on the contrary to the above conclusion, as interesting as it is, I believe that Christ used "the common belief about life after death in His day" (not "misconception") to quite simply warn each and every human being as to punishment and reward in the Afterlife – "Simple" being the operative word. I believe that Christ spoke this parable to provide the full gist of its meaning as a warning to take heed of ignoring the plight of others - not to lessen its impact with theological harmonisation.
Personally, I would say, yes, it is a metaphorical story in the sense that not everyone who is selfish like the rich man finds themselves in an identical scenario – but rather they endure the discomfort similar to the discomfort they caused to others. Sometimes the only way for a selfish person to learn is to experience the agony that they cause to others through their own selfishness, whether ignorantly or intentionally, and whether through commission or omission. Once they have learnt through expiation (they must learn to love all humanity equally, not just close family) then it is onward and upward for them. I see no good reason to minimise the impact of such a state simply because there are others who refer to this as a permanent hellish state.
Again, returning to simplicity, I believe that this is simply a warning for each and everyone to benefit from – young, old, educated, illiterate, simple or intellectual - even if they have never heard of the house of Judah.
I think it can be taken for granted that the Pharisees could count up to six, and one brother plus five brothers equals six brothers. Therefore, it's a bit if a stretch to name the first selfish brother to find himself alive and conscious in horrific surroundings as the house of Judah – he wasn't the father of the other five. Indeed, if the rich man had said: "I have five sons", then the theory would have had had more credence, in my opinion.
Speaking of Simple, as were all things of Christ, I believe that it is safe to remember how Jesus condensed and declared the law of Moses and the prophets:
Matthew 22:36-40
36 'Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?'
37 Jesus replied: '"Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind." 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: "Love your neighbour as yourself." 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.'
Is it too simple?
Huh, what? It's brothers. Judah, son of Jacob (Israel) had five brothers: Reuben, Simeon, Levi, Issachar and Zebulan. These are the other five sons born to Jacob - by Leah. Obviously Judah has another five brothers but apparently they don't. Now unlike you I get this up until this point. I start to get wary when, while there seems to be possible Biblical precedent for discounting Jacob's other sons like this it seems hard pressed to think that Judah would disregard them all in this context especially as the Kingdom of Israel ended up split between Judah and Benjamin (not one of Judah's full brothers) and everyone else who became Samaritans who Judah (the rest of Israel) hates (if I've understood how history unfolded).
Quote from: DavidFord on September 28, 2018, 05:51:35 AM
Did Titus 3:9 originally mention the: law? Scribes?
"and the disputes and contests of the scribes.." Quote
Titus 3:9 (NKJV)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=titus%203%3A9&version=NKJV;NASB;NABRE
But avoid foolish disputes, genealogies,
contentions, and strivings about the law;
for they are unprofitable and useless.
Titus 3:9 (from Aramaic) http://dukhrana.com
(Murdock) But foolish questions, and stories of genealogies,
and the disputes and contests of the scribes [Aramaic: Sapra], avoid:
for there is no profit in them, and they are vain.
:thumbsup:
Quote from: CST on September 28, 2018, 01:07:04 PM
Quote from: lastpost on September 27, 2018, 08:05:20 PM
Greetings!
QuoteCONCLUSION
The parable of Lazarus and the rich man, long used by mainstream ministers to teach the reality of "hell," really has nothing to say about punishment or reward in the afterlife. Christ used this story, which fit the common misconception about life after death in his day, to show the fate that awaited the Jewish nation because of the unbelief and faithlessness which led them to reject him as the Messiah.
Well, yes, if one has a certain doctrine to establish then the above, is true for such people. And if it keeps them from selfishness and sinning, then Christ's parable has served its purpose for them.
However, on the contrary to the above conclusion, as interesting as it is, I believe that Christ used "the common belief about life after death in His day" (not "misconception") to quite simply warn each and every human being as to punishment and reward in the Afterlife – "Simple" being the operative word. I believe that Christ spoke this parable to provide the full gist of its meaning as a warning to take heed of ignoring the plight of others - not to lessen its impact with theological harmonisation.
Personally, I would say, yes, it is a metaphorical story in the sense that not everyone who is selfish like the rich man finds themselves in an identical scenario – but rather they endure the discomfort similar to the discomfort they caused to others. Sometimes the only way for a selfish person to learn is to experience the agony that they cause to others through their own selfishness, whether ignorantly or intentionally, and whether through commission or omission. Once they have learnt through expiation (they must learn to love all humanity equally, not just close family) then it is onward and upward for them. I see no good reason to minimise the impact of such a state simply because there are others who refer to this as a permanent hellish state.
Again, returning to simplicity, I believe that this is simply a warning for each and everyone to benefit from – young, old, educated, illiterate, simple or intellectual - even if they have never heard of the house of Judah.
I think it can be taken for granted that the Pharisees could count up to six, and one brother plus five brothers equals six brothers. Therefore, it's a bit if a stretch to name the first selfish brother to find himself alive and conscious in horrific surroundings as the house of Judah – he wasn't the father of the other five. Indeed, if the rich man had said: "I have five sons", then the theory would have had had more credence, in my opinion.
Speaking of Simple, as were all things of Christ, I believe that it is safe to remember how Jesus condensed and declared the law of Moses and the prophets:
Matthew 22:36-40
36 'Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?'
37 Jesus replied: '"Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind." 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: "Love your neighbour as yourself." 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.'
Is it too simple?
Huh, what? It's brothers. Judah, son of Jacob (Israel) had five brothers: Reuben, Simeon, Levi, Issachar and Zebulan. These are the other five sons born to Jacob - by Leah. Obviously Judah has another five brothers but apparently they don't. Now unlike you I get this up until this point. I start to get wary when, while there seems to be possible Biblical precedent for discounting Jacob's other sons like this it seems hard pressed to think that Judah would disregard them all in this context especially as the Kingdom of Israel ended up split between Judah and Benjamin (not one of Judah's full brothers) and everyone else who became Samaritans who Judah (the rest of Israel) hates (if I've understood how history unfolded).
Yes, it's interesting, and why do the writers (there's another article using the same theory) seem to think it so significant that Judah's other brothers should be disregarded?
I think that the link to Judah in these articles is far too tentative and is certainly not "cemented", but rather it is used to bolster a doctrinal belief.
What I meant to portray was that if Christ meant for the rich man to represent Judah as the "progenitor" of "the Jews", then it would be far more relevant in this theory for any living sons of Judah to be inferred rather than five of his brothers of eponymous tribes (but as two of Judah's sons had died the number used by Christ would not have tallied, if I'm correct Biblically).
Many of the classical rabbinical sources (with only Bamidbar Rabbah stating otherwise apparently) have Simeon dying at the age of 120, roughly three years before the death of his brother Reuben.
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/13677-simeon-tribe-of
While I do not personally accept the chronological accuracy of Biblical dates, if I have my reverse chronology correct then:
Reuben died aged 125 in 1445/1444 BCE
Therefore Simeon (born 1568 BCE or 1567 BCE ) died aged 120 in 1448/1447 BCE
Judah was born in 1565 BCE
https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/288958/jewish/Judah.htm
The Book of Jubilees has Judah dying aged 119 in 1446 BCE
The Book of Jasher has Judah dying aged 129 (thus 1436 BCE)
This would mean:
According to the Book of Jubilees, Judah outlived one of his blood brothers.
According to the Book of Jasher, Judah outlived two of his blood brothers.
How is it that there were five brothers alive in Christ's parable if the rich man was Judah? It's all too shaky.
The following is my opinion regarding the beggar and the selfish rich man...
PART 1
THE PARABLE OF LAZARUS AND THE RICH MAN Luke: 16:19-31
I believe that the parable of
Lazarus the beggar and the selfish rich man belongs to
every man,
woman and
child in a way that each can
understand in simple terms. Christ is the Saviour, the Redeemer - He said that He came "to save the world" (John 12:47).
There are many ways to view Scripture, yet it would seem to be very plain that the parable of the Rich Man and the Beggar as told by Jesus to His listeners, was meant to be taken in its rudimentary sense by them according to their understanding of a post mortem existence.
This is because the hearers of Christ who were Jews, in the main, already had in their minds the type of scenario drawn out by Jesus. This is beyond any question of doubt to the mind which is not biased towards fulfilling a theology which does not allow for Christ's parable to actually mean what it says regarding the immediate after-death experience of souls – i.e.
conscious existence.
Some truly magnificent attempts by the latter theologians at providing convoluted and intricately interwoven explanations regarding Christ's parable have been presented. Similar extravagant teachings must also be used to explain away certain other passages regarding the existence of souls in other conditions such as the clear proclamation of 1 Peter 3:18-20 & 4:6 that the Spirit of Jesus preached to conscious beings immediately after His death on the Cross, references to Christ descending and ascending, and the fact that Jesus and others saw the bright spirits of Moses and Elias who had died many centuries before.
The well-known historian Josephus, a Jewish son of a father of priestly descent, born in Jerusalem AD37/38, who was extremely proficient in his studies of Jewish law, having conducted academic studies with the Essenes, Sadducees and Pharisees, could not have been in a better position to know the state of belief of the Jews of the time of Jesus of Nazareth regarding what happens when the physical body stops breathing.
Josephus writes of the Pharisees: "While claiming that everything is affected by destiny, they do not deprive human will of power in these things. For it occurred to God to make a combination and to admit to his counsel the will of men---with its virtue and its vice. Their belief is that there is an undying power in souls and that, under the ground, there is an accounting to reward and punish those who were righteous or unrighteous in (this) life" (Antiquities of the Jews - Book XVIII, Chap. 1 para. 3).
Of the Sadducees Josephus writes in Jewish War (2.164-166): "They deny the soul's permanence as well as rewards and punishments in the underworld".
The Pharisees emerged as a significant force in Jewish affairs because of their influence with the common people. The
Eerdmans Bible Dictionary states of the time of Jesus: "The Sadducees were the party of those with political power" but "
The views of the Pharisees prevailed among the common people". Furthemore, Josephus tells us that: "The Sadducees persuade only the well-to-do and have no popular following. But
the Pharisees have the masses as allies" (Antiquities 12.297-298). Again, with specific reference to the Pharisees' doctrine of the belief in conscious existence immediately after physical death in Hades, Josephus writes: "On account of which doctrines they are able
greatly to persuade the body of the people" (18.1.3).
Clearly,
the Jews to whom Jesus was speaking were steeped in the teachings of the Pharisees regarding conscious existence after physical death.
This parable told by Jesus the Christ was simply meant to be interpreted according the general understanding of the common Jewish masses regarding immediate consciousness after the demise of the body. Yes, it is a parable and not a factual story, but nevertheless it is clear in its intent, so it seems to me, concerning an inviolable and immutable law of consequences regarding selfishness. It is a true blessing to humankind and should not have its meaning diluted by the misdirection of Christian religionists because it does not fit in with their theologies.
The Jewish conception of Hades was similar to that of the Greek belief, with the main exception that they had a belief in a "Final Resurrection". Many Jews believed that there were punishments and rewards for souls in Hades depending upon whether they had been virtuous and just, or wicked and unjust.
Furthermore, Christ's parable had already had an incarnation in writings from the Jews' Babylonian captivity – it is simply being purblind to state that Jesus was not referring to a state of the Afterlife which was in the minds of contemporary hearers.
Luke 16:19-3119 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hades he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
All things to do with Christ are simple. The parable of Lazarus the beggar and the selfish rich man presents a simple teaching by the Good Shepherd of mankind about selfishness and the ignoring of the plight of one's fellows, and the consequences it brings to the individual; it also explains in simple terms about hardships and unfairness and the compensatory consequences that these adversaries bring to the individual.
Jesus Christ knew that thousands of years later, His parable would be read or heard by the people of that time - including people of today. The Great Teacher knew that His spiritual teachings would have to be applicable and relevant to all people, not just the contemporary people to whom He spoke then.
Therefore, He spoke a message that covered the principle in a way that anyone and everyone - man, woman or child - could easily understand and react to positively with help from God or perhaps even an angel guardian (Matthew 18:10) - even unbeknown to themselves. He did not speak this parable so that only dedicated scholars specialising in that period and context could relate to.
The person who believes in so called "everlasting punishment" says that the different states into which people go at death are completely separate and never the twain shall meet, neither shall there be any change for the inhabitants of those conditions, i.e. everlasting torment. This is clearly not what He who was Divine Love in Human Form meant.
Christ's parable shows Lazarus and the rich man dying: "...the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried" (Luke 16:22). With absolutely no sleeping or being unconscious for any length of time, they are both very much alive and conscious in Hades.
This is a parable told by Jesus Christ which expounds a general principle of God's economy and salvation, and as such the beggar and the rich man are roles used in the revealing of that principle rather than being two specific people.
Generally speaking, Hades in the minds of many of the Greek Jews at the time represented both Paradise and Hell, i.e. Hades represented the Afterlife in the minds of many.
Concerning Hades, Josephus, a first-century Romano-Jewish historian who was born in Jerusalem (AD37/38) writes: "The Sadducees rob the rewards of the righteous and the just in Hades" because the Sadducees did not believe in an Afterlife; Josephus wrote this because there was an idea abroad that there were rewards for the righteous in the Hades. "Abraham's bosom" was a term used for that part of Hades representing a type of paradise. The rich man, however, finds himself in a very different part of Hades which is a different locality of Hades-life to that of Abraham's bosom and it is extremely hellish in nature.
Hades, according to the Rabbinical writings, is the place to where both the "just and righteous" and the "unjust and wicked" go after physical death. The rich man gives a clear indication as to the nature of the environment of that particular aspect of Hades into which he passed, and indeed, which he had built up for himself, as he went to his "own place" (
topos => space marked off, condition), in a similar manner that Acts reports Judas as having done (Acts 1:25). The change from physical death to the next state of being is reported by Jesus - when relating the death of both the rich man and Lazarus - as being immediate, no waiting, no mentioning of waking up; this was an instant transition (where a conversation starts): "...we shall all be changed in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye").
"And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried" (Luke 16:22). There is a telling aspect to Christ's portrayal of the end-of-life transition between the two characters, the rich man and Lazarus. Jesus is encouraging the mind to think about a higher state, a more elevated environment, and is drawing us away from the main idea that all afterlife takes place "under the earth" which was a common belief. Jesus says that the rich man was "buried" and finds himself in Hades, but the beggar "was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom", inferring an upwards movement in perfect harmony with the word "anastasis" (a rising, rising up) which translates to "resurrection" in the Bible. This would correspond to his "first death" which was "close at hand" (as mentioned in the highly symbolic vision of Revelations which some treat literally but it is symbolic and non-literal here) and due to his spiritual condition there would not be a "second death". However, there clearly is a "second death" for the selfish rich man, and in that worse state he now finds himself.
The selfish rich man immediately finds himself in the hellish part of Hades, as described by our Lord: "And in hades he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom (Luke 16:23)". Once again, we are asked to raise our own thoughts in the direction of the locality that the beggar now finds himself, i.e. in a higher and more purified environment than that of the rich man (in contrast to contemporary ideas).
The rich man now recognised the reality of his fate and no doubt he realised now his foolishness in ignoring the warnings by God through His holy prophets to repent of evil ways in order to receive the Deliverer's salvation. But it is too late, he had led a whole lifetime of selfishness and lack of interest in his fellow's plight, and what darkness had been built up in the soul over a whole lifetime of abuse had to be purged "so as by fire" (1 Cor.3:15) - God's laws had to run their course before he was cleansed in order that he was spiritually fit to enter into a higher environment of the type already declared: "And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame" (Luke 16:24), but Abraham replied: "Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented" (Luke 16:25).
The rich man finds himself in a hellish place through utter selfishness, and Lazarus finds himself truly compensated for the hardship endured during his life. This is Divine Law at work - indeed, Divine Justice - what has been sown is reaped (Galatians 6:7, Job 4:8), the law of retribution
and the law of compensation working on in spite of man's ignorance of such laws. The conditions into which each character had passed was based solely on how they had lived their lives. "There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you [yourselves] thrust out" (Luke 13:28).
However, the sufferings of Lazarus the beggar drew him nearer to the likeness of Christ, he suffered mentally and physically, and while the "dogs licked his open wounds" (Luke 16:21) he was persecuted by poverty and a wilful lack of charity from people including the rich man and his family, for which they received their due comeuppance. It is plain.
Abraham continues: "And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence" (Luke 16:26). The "gulf" mentioned is not a gulf of a physical nature, it is a gulf of moral and spiritual attainment, or lack of it.
Continued in PART 2
Continued: PART 2
THE PARABLE OF LAZARUS AND THE RICH MAN Luke: 16:19-31
Certainly, in terms of locality, the conditions in which Lazarus and the rich man find themselves are different, and yet both localities are simultaneously coexistent with the earth and those living upon it: "Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment" (Luke 16:27,28).
The rich man assumes that someone who has physically died can visit his relatives who are clearly depicted as living on the Earth at the same time that the rich man was in his hellish place and Lazarus was in a far more congenial environment; Christ does not relate Abraham as saying that the rich man's relatives are long dead and "asleep" in a grave, but He declares the opposite: Christ confirms the assumption of the rich man that his relatives are living on the Earth at that very moment, thus Christ confirms co-existence in the most simple way - "the simplicity that is in Christ".
Abraham does not deny that one can return from death to give warnings as to the life to come and its consequences but simply states that: "They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them" (Luke 16:29). This is an indication that in Moses and the prophets there is a spiritual instruction that shows them how to avoid the fate of the rich man. The prophets of the Old Testament had been urging the people for centuries, on behalf of God, to repent of their evil and wicked ways in order to avoid a fate worse than death and receive God's deliverance.
Now repentance is once more brought to the attention in Christ's parable: "And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent (
metanoeo => heartily to amend with abhorrence of one's past sins)" (Luke 16:30).
But Abraham points out it would be a pointless exercise attempting to prove to his relatives the existence of life after death and the inevitable reaping of consequences to those who did not heed Moses or the warnings of the prophets: "And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead" (Luke 16:31).
This last statement refers not only to the pointlessness of the rich man's request to father Abraham for someone to return from "death" to warn his relatives, but it also refers to Jesus' own reappearance after physical death as being pointless to such as these relatives in their present state on Earth as they would not believe it or take heed - and being a parable, it can encompass both possibilities.
There is a process occurring. The hells, Paradise and earth all exist at the same time and each goes to his "own place" at physical death to undertake the next stage of spiritual life made out of God's laws. And it would seem that the next stage of life for the rich man's relatives was going to be a similar state of torment; they were creating a "great gulf" between themselves and Divine happiness too.
Christ's parable is about ethical living during earthly life and He is giving a severe warning of how it will be for those who ignore their duties to the less fortunate, allowing them to suffer needlessly while simply serving themselves instead; it is a severe warning because He wants people to realise it is a reality. Christ was showing that although there was communication between those in very different conditions, there could be no relief for those who had brought upon themselves by violating God's laws - through negligence and their own self-seeking motives - the consequences that must be faced.
In other words, we are being told that the selfishness of the rich man was such that on his arrival in his new condition, there was no escape from his predicament because of the health of his spiritual-body, and the consequences he must face. He had done it to himself through utter selfishness and must suffer the results.
Thus, there was not going to be relief from his torment by any cooling "water" (from Lazarus) because not only was there no accommodation for such a thing in his present environment but the scales of Divine Justice could not be altered and he therefore had to reap what he had sown and there was no relief possible, not even a temporary respite from that which "scorched".
But let us not forget the wonderful love of Christ. However permanent the position this torment may appear to be to one who has, by wilful opposition to God's Law of Love, put himself there (and very permanent it seems to such a one), there is always a time when, after a hellish purification and correction (or "age-long pruning"), such a one will have eventually had enough selfishness "pruned" away, to be able to learn something of the selfless nature of the Gospel of Love from Christ and His angels, and surely be able to lighten the conditions around. The "great gulf" which was fixed through selfishness and wickedness, can, piece by piece, be transformed into a bridge by developing selflessness, compassion and love, and all those Divine qualities exemplified in the life of Jesus Christ.
God is all-wise and all-loving, and has accounted for everything in His Plan for the redemption of His children. There may be those of God's children who fix a great gulf between their self-centred, unsympathetic and uncompassionate natures, and the spiritual health and attainment to be gained by learning from God and those "ministering spirits" who work for Him (Heb.1:14) who would relieve them of their "debt", as it were, but the Law of Consequences cannot be altered (Luke 6:37, Gal.6:7, 1 Cor.3:13-15, 2 Cor.5:10, Rom.2:6, Matt.16:27, Rev.22:12, Rev.20:12) which is in operation and which is made manifest at the end of an individual's earthly life ("the time is near", "behold I come quickly"), and which has been in force from the very beginning for the redemption of God's children; those who have imprisoned themselves in such a way must remain in their self-created jail until all "debts" are paid, yet because of God's love and wisdom, they shall be free of their darkness - God has ordained it.
Indeed, we can see the state of such a one in another teaching told by Jesus: "And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors,
until he should pay all that was due unto him" (Matt. 18:34). It is simple to associate this teaching with the parable of the selfish rich man under discussion because the state of the wicked servant and the selfish rich man is the same state, albeit in parabolic form. The fundamentalist students who truly believe in an "everlasting punishment" will have missed this association due to an erroneous assumption that he or she, and those who think like him or her, will be the only ones who are not going to Hell for eternity. However, it is important to notice the word "until" in Christ's parable about the wicked servant. He, like the selfish rich man, must reap what he had sown "until" he should "pay all that was due".
This is brought powerfully home to us by the example of the loving Good Shepherd Who seeks the lost sheep "
until He finds it" (Luke 15:4), when He left His dead body on the Cross and went in His spirit to teach people who were once wicked (who had since undergone a long 'pruning' period and were now ready to learn) about His Gospel of Love; Christ was: "put to death in the flesh, but quickened in the spirit: in which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing" (1 Pet. 3:18-20).
The hellish place related by our Lord in which the rich man found himself, will last for a terminable time - a time with an end. The Age whose closing shall see the fulfilment of God's "Purpose of the Aeons" (Eph.3:11), i.e. "the Restitution of all things", will be the Age when all souls have been purified of the evil they contain.
This Age is a finite period, it may be a vast one, as Christ's purpose is worked through "all the generations of the Aeon of aeons" (Eph.3:21); Christ spoke of "Aeonial pruning" (Matt. 25:46), indicating an ongoing process of painful soul-purification for those who are dead spiritually, contrasted with living the Christ-Life and progressing spiritually with Christ, remembering that Christ the Redeemer was "with God" (John 1:1) from the very beginning.
This great Aeon will close only when the Purpose of God in Christ shall have been accomplished; when the epochs of pruning and death shall have passed away, and the "lost" and "dead" beings shall have been found and made alive to God.
We have a promise from our Lord bringing unimaginable comfort available to man on Earth: "If a man keep My word, he shall not see death all through the Aeon" (John 8:51). How blessed are we compared to the selfish rich man who did not have knowledge of our Lord in Person.
The great Aeon of Christ Jesus' Purpose shall finally achieve its fulfilment and to Christ's satisfaction: "He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied" (Isa.53:11), when in "the dispensation of the fullness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ" (Eph.1:10) and "...when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father" (1 Cor. 15:24) - then those terrible pruning areas in the "Hades" of old will no longer exist as all of the children of God will now be living free from evil and spiritual death - in Perfection. He has ordained it.
This has been my opinion.
Peace.
Ok the article and the author's interpretation may or may not have merit but in my understanding, it seems that when Jesus spoke in parables he used something to represent something else:
so when He talks of goats it's not really goats...
The same for: sheep, leaven, talents, fire, seeds, vineyards, fig trees, brides, weddings, virgins, shepherds, wine skins, garments, weeds, etc.
So why is this parable suddenly to be taken literally when all others are stories rich with symbolism?
I do, as of now, believe in some form of after death learning/purifying, however.
Edit: Lastpost, I do agree with much of what you posted above. You were posting the same time as I was.
It fine for people to believe what they want to believe. This particular parable, in my opinion, is not literal, but portrays a general condition – a template, if you will. It's not literal, but it acts very nicely as a warning by Christ in its parabolic form.
If others want to say that this parable refers to Judah as being the Jewish nation, that's up to them, but in doing so I believe that they diminish the protection afforded by Christ in the sense that this is to be taken as what happens to an individual who is selfish to the point of having no empathy towards the beggar in agony as in the example of the rich man – and that example transitions into similar scenarios.
That's just my opinion of course.
Quote from: lastpost on September 29, 2018, 02:40:51 AM
It fine for people to believe what they want to believe. This particular parable, in my opinion, is not literal, but portrays a general condition – a template, if you will. It's not literal, but it acts very nicely as a warning by Christ in its parabolic form.
If others want to say that this parable refers to Judah as being the Jewish nation, that's up to them, but in doing so I believe that they diminish the protection afforded by Christ in the sense that this is to be taken as what happens to an individual who is selfish to the point of having no empathy towards the beggar in agony as in the example of the rich man – and that example transitions into similar scenarios.
That's just my opinion of course.
Ok, that can make sense to me.
Quote from: lastpost on September 28, 2018, 08:16:17 PM
Yes, it's interesting, and why do the writers (there's another article using the same theory) seem to think it so significant that Judah's other brothers should be disregarded?
I think that the link to Judah in these articles is far too tentative and is certainly not "cemented", but rather it is used to bolster a doctrinal belief.
What I meant to portray was that if Christ meant for the rich man to represent Judah as the "progenitor" of "the Jews", then it would be far more relevant in this theory for any living sons of Judah to be inferred rather than five of his brothers of eponymous tribes (but as two of Judah's sons had died the number used by Christ would not have tallied, if I'm correct Biblically).
Many of the classical rabbinical sources (with only Bamidbar Rabbah stating otherwise apparently) have Simeon dying at the age of 120, roughly three years before the death of his brother Reuben.
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/13677-simeon-tribe-of
While I do not personally accept the chronological accuracy of Biblical dates, if I have my reverse chronology correct then:
Reuben died aged 125 in 1445/1444 BCE
Therefore Simeon (born 1568 BCE or 1567 BCE ) died aged 120 in 1448/1447 BCE
Judah was born in 1565 BCE
https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/288958/jewish/Judah.htm
The Book of Jubilees has Judah dying aged 119 in 1446 BCE
The Book of Jasher has Judah dying aged 129 (thus 1436 BCE)
This would mean:
According to the Book of Jubilees, Judah outlived one of his blood brothers.
According to the Book of Jasher, Judah outlived two of his blood brothers.
How is it that there were five brothers alive in Christ's parable if the rich man was Judah? It's all too shaky.
Huh, wouldn't all Judah's brother's be dead by the time Jesus walked in Israel, I'm not sure trying to work out when each of Judah's brothers died is helpful the Bible doesn't tell us clearly (as far I recall Joseph dies is buried, Genesis end little else is mentioned)and so they could have died in any order. I'm not entirely convinced the order of their births in Genesis 31/32 is entirely correct, it seems incredibly neat.
I'm going to read you interpretation later, I'm now short of time.
Proverbs 18;3and5 When wickedness comes,so does contempt,and with shame comes disgrace. When the birds of heaven come to
steal away'seed wordof God"such as righteousness a free gift..and salvation of all men,all redeemed and Jesus coming to save
all men..not condemn....then contempt for fellowmen..and shame[from uncovering nakedness of sin seen as not coveredby Christ's
blood[atonementLamb] and accusors of the brethren riseup in agreement with THE ACCUSOR OF THE BRETHERN[wicked].they
.dis-the-GRACE GOD IS SHOWING UNTO ALL MEN.and such doctrines and headlines as the title of the original post topic.
we strip men naked when we accuse them of sin that has been atoned for by Jesusblood..and donotcover theirnakednesswith
the freegiftof righteousness through Christ[cleanwhite garment]
They parted Jesus garments..exposed His nakedness[condemned as a sinner/blasphemer]on the cross..and Hedespised the shame.
LOVE COVERS A MULTITUDE OF SINS..itdoes not expose nakedness and shame.
Our change of'RAINMENT" in Christ..is clean white garments/freegift of righteousness through Christ BY GOD.
we dishonor Christ and the Father when we fail to honour their revealed will and higher thoughts..
verse 5itisnotgood to be partial with the wicked[accusorofthe brethren]or to deprive theinnocent ofjustice[take all their sin away] :2c:
:2c: Rich man..portrays Prince of this world/satan/whousurped dominionfrom all in Adam[Lazarus]sown in weakness andcorruption and
raised up in power and incorruption.. satan and demons LOF /torment..thirsting for water of life[covering of bloodof Christ/Word of Life
from God]
. Chasm between those shown mercy[allin Adam]who inherit the Kingdom prepared for them.
Matthew 12;45.... 5+7more spirits more wicked then himself=12.......Satan's reign over this earth/man comes to it's final end.
12 represents government/reign
Luke 9;16 5 loaves and 2fish=12 basketful.Mk8;6seven loaves..Jesus feeding the poor[allin Adam/Lazarus]with lifesustaining'wordof
God..resurrection,grace,freegift of eternal life forgiveness and healing.
feed,clothe,visits sick[Adam] and those in-prisoned in this body of death[weak/corruptible]
satan's reign/RICH MAN/accuser..man given no crumb of forgiveness/love/mercy/bread of life..but condemnation death.
It’s not easy to figure this out what with seeming opposing verses on the topic. The best we can do is believe what we think the verses combined mean and what seems to us the Spirit of God is guiding us in our belief.
But of course, we cannot really know for sure. So it’s excellent when believers can share their views, even when they differ. :thumbsup:
As for me, I tend to think in terms of - I guess, dispensationism? I tend to think all believers rise at Jesus’ return.. the living believers and the dead believers rising to meet Him at his coming, from whatever state of consciousness, all believers together meet Him at His coming. Then I believe in a literal 1000 years millennial rule of Jesus upon Earth where there will be survivors of apocalypse.. and where believers will be serving and working with Jesus.. called “reigning with Christ”.
Then I believe the later chapters of Revelation indicate that after the millennium, and after the adversary is set free for a short while and he deceived survivors (some) to once again surround Jerusalem - which I assume was rebuilt after the “7 years of burning the leftover war machinery of Armageddon which occurred in Gehenna Valkey outside Jerusalem (just prior to and as Jesus was returning).
Fire comes down and consumes these ones.. Then i believe these late chapters of Rev indicate all those who have lived but have not yet come to “believe” will be resurrected. And since the resurrection of dead believers at Jesus’ return is called here the 1st resurrection (Rev 20) I figure this resurrection, after the millennium, of all nonbelievers to be the 2nd one.
So I see these afterlife things as happening to the groups collectively. As in Rev, a collective judgment ‘day’, not that each one of us when we come to the Lord, whether during this life or later, don’t carry out our own interior individual self judgment.
I tend to think of Judgment ‘day’ not as a day of God judging. I really don’t.. but as the fulfillment of israel’s (collective) Day Of Atonement - doa 4 the doa - but I believe it’s belief that gets ones name in the book of life, and after rising I figure, who’s not going to believe? And repent and be reconciled? Thus written in the book.. And once one learns God is the total source of life, and is love & all good things w/ no darkness at all, would anyone with any rational thought at all, choose not to believe / submit? My thought “imagination” os of God, loving, patient Father, still waiting.. as each one is drawn by Jesus (Jn 12:32; Ps. 22:27) and makes their way out of their outer darkness, weeping and perhaps even their gnashing of teeth..
One thing we all agree on is 1 Corinthians 15:22-28! (Ephesians 1:10 & Colossians 1:20) When all things/the whole has been made subject to Jesus and He has handed the kingdom and Himself unto the Fagher, the Father, we know, shall be truly “all in all”.
I have always loved numbers and letters. (Who doesn’t!? lol) That’s why I get a kick out of ‘doa for the doa’ / day Of Atonement for the (initially) dead on arrival / rose “still in their sins” (?) And I also get find my attention noticing the parable of the leaven, that there’s 3 loaves / 3 harvests like in 1 Corinthians 15:22-28? And the verses are Mt. 13:33. (I also can’t ignore the #’s Of Rev 13:13, Which was huge & no one sees.
Sigh.. I’ve studied ‘on my own’ for almost 40 years.. And I have a healthy imagination on these things.. Now I’ve gone & wrote a book on this tiny phone.. not easy to edit.. :laughing7:
I’m going to reread the parable in the interlinear.. And let the Lord guide / minister.. Which I know we all do! And we all see as through a glass darkly.
:Peace2:
It's funny but the parable came up in my daily reading, but indirectly. I made myself a reading schedule of the gospels blended into two 6 month readings made up of mostly 2 of the gospels for each schedule.
Yesterday's reading had a gap.. so to double check I hadn't left any verses out of the schedules, I checked the other 6 month schedule (which I imagine I probably did last year too).
And included in those verses - which were in the other 6 month schedule - was the parable of Lazarus and the rich man. A little strange.
And you're not going to believe this (I am chuckling as I write this, it's that not credible!)
When I read the verses on the Bible hub apps interlinear.. "...and the poor man died.." :bsad: I could almost hear the Lord saying.. "and was carried by angels.." It seemed like He swept His arm up toward the heavens and said, "up into the bosom of Abraham.." - and it struck me as an idiom, the same as "fell asleep with the father's".
When reading, and the Lord said "and the rich man died and was in hades" I imagined the rich man in a grave, as if I was looking down upon it, and it was transparent.. "and having lifted up the eyes of him" it struck me that he was dreaming..
And father Abraham tells him he having lived in selfish "splendor" was now in torments (and nightmare?) and Lazarus was being comforted..
...yes I know, I've totally lost it now.
Quote from: marie glen on September 28, 2018, 06:24:38 PM
"and the disputes and contests of the scribes.."
In the original rendition of 2 Tim 4:13, did Paul leave behind: a cloak? a house of books, i.e. a book-carrier?
2 Tim 4:13 (DLNT)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Timothy%204%3A13&version=DLNT
While coming, bring the cloak which I left-behind in Troas with Carpus,
and the books— especially the parchments.
2 Ti 4:13 (based on Magiera, from Aramaic)
http://aramaicdb.lightofword.org/index.php/en/interlinear-search
And bring the book-carrier that I left in Troas with Carpus when you come,
and the books especially the rolls of parchments.
1 Tim 3:16's poetry
The last 4 lines rhyme in Aramaic: malaka-angels aimma-Gentiles ailma-world shubkha-glory.
Line 1's rab-great and kanutha-uprightness are reminiscent of 'rab khana' - 'high priest.'
Line 2's athgli - 'was revealed' has gali: reveal; Jesus was revealed in the flesh in Galilee.
Lines 3 and 4's azddq - 'was justified' and mlaka-angels are reminiscent of Melchizedek.
Lines 4 and 5 have the similar-sounding a-th-kh-z-i 'was seen' and a-th-k-r-z 'was preached.'
Lines 5 and 6 have the similar-sounding aimma-Gentiles and ailma-world.
1Ti 3:16 (based on Magiera)
http://aramaicdb.lightofword.org/index.php/en/interlinear-search
1 and truly great is this mystery of uprightness
2 which was revealed in the flesh
3 and was justified spiritually
4 and was seen by angels
5 and was preached among the Gentiles
6 and was believed in the world
7 and was taken up in glory
Quote from: marie glen on September 30, 2018, 05:14:36 PM
It's funny but the parable came up in my daily reading, but indirectly. I made myself a reading schedule of the gospels blended into two 6 month readings made up of mostly 2 of the gospels for each schedule.
Yesterday's reading had a gap.. so to double check I hadn't left any verses out of the schedules, I checked the other 6 month schedule (which I imagine I probably did last year too).
And included in those verses - which were in the other 6 month schedule - was the parable of Lazarus and the rich man. A little strange.
And you're not going to believe this (I am chuckling as I write this, it's that not credible!)
When I read the verses on the Bible hub apps interlinear.. "...and the poor man died.." :bsad: I could almost hear the Lord saying.. "and was carried by angels.." It seemed like He swept His arm up toward the heavens and said, "up into the bosom of Abraham.." - and it struck me as an idiom, the same as "fell asleep with the father's".
When reading, and the Lord said "and the rich man died and was in hades" I imagined the rich man in a grave, as if I was looking down upon it, and it was transparent.. "and having lifted up the eyes of him" it struck me that he was dreaming..
And father Abraham tells him he having lived in selfish "splendor" was now in torments (and nightmare?) and Lazarus was being comforted..
...yes I know, I've totally lost it now.
What stood out to me is this:
"...having lived in selfish splendor was now in torments (and nightmare?)
THIS is what I would tend, as of now, to believe "punishment" entails...our own torments when we realize the horror of our past deeds. How do we reach the point of the realization that our deeds were sinful is IMO an individual process, likely involving God's spirit opening our eyes in whatever ways he sees fit.
Quote from: marie glen on September 29, 2018, 09:14:14 PMI've studied 'on my own' for almost 40 years.... I'm going to reread the parable in the interlinear.. And let the Lord guide / minister
An interlinear of the Aramaic is at
http://aramaicdb.lightofword.org/index.php/en/interlinear-search
Another interlinear can be gotten to using the Peshi+ta tool at
http://dukhrana.com
by checking the box for Khabouris and/or 'BFBS/UBS,' finding a passage, and clicking 'analyze.'
Quote from: GodIsLove on September 30, 2018, 08:55:08 PM
What stood out to me is this:
"...having lived in selfish splendor was now in torments (and nightmare?)
THIS is what I would tend, as of now, to believe "punishment" entails...our own torments when we realize the horror of our past deeds. How do we reach the point of the realization that our deeds were sinful is IMO an individual process, likely involving God's spirit opening our eyes in whatever ways he sees fit.
In Melvin's account, one guy seen in hell was in a prison similar to what he'd sent an innocent person, and was questioning himself over his having done that evil deed. Another person in hell had come to realize that 'white magic' was actually harmful.
Quote from: DavidFord on September 30, 2018, 09:08:25 PM
Quote from: marie glen on September 29, 2018, 09:14:14 PMI've studied 'on my own' for almost 40 years.... I'm going to reread the parable in the interlinear.. And let the Lord guide / minister
An interlinear of the Aramaic is at
http://aramaicdb.lightofword.org/index.php/en/interlinear-search
Another interlinear can be gotten to using the Peshi+ta tool at
http://dukhrana.com
by checking the box for Khabouris and/or 'BFBS/UBS,' finding a passage, and clicking 'analyze.'
Thank you! I'll check that out! And likely add it to my regularly used links :thumbsup:
Quote from: GodIsLove on September 30, 2018, 08:55:08 PM
What stood out to me is this:
"...having lived in selfish splendor was now in torments (and nightmare?)
THIS is what I would tend, as of now, to believe "punishment" entails...our own torments when we realize the horror of our past deeds. How do we reach the point of the realization that our deeds were sinful is IMO an individual process, likely involving God's spirit opening our eyes in whatever ways he sees fit.
I, as of now, believe that too.. I thought it interesting today reading the interlinear translation of "testing" in the greek - included "testing one's genuineness" etc.. https://biblehub.com/greek/1381.htm
Quote
G1381. dokimazo ►
Strong's Concordance
dokimazo: I put to the test, prove, examine
Cognate: 1381 dokimázō (from 1384 /dókimos, "approved") – properly, to try (test) to show something is acceptable (real, approved); put to the test to reveal what is good (genuine). See 1384 (dokimos).
1381 /dokimázō ("to approve by testing") is done to demonstrate what is good, i.e. passes the necessary test. 1381 (dokimázō) does not focus on disproving something (i.e. to show it is bad).
I thought that is very interesting.
Quote from: DavidFord on September 30, 2018, 09:41:15 PM
In Melvin's account, one guy seen in hell was in a prison similar to what he'd sent an innocent person, and was questioning himself over his having done that evil deed. Another person in hell had come to realize that 'white magic' was actually harmful.
:Chinscratch: interesting.. maybe the unsaved in hades (not hell) - in the state of death, or perhaps even in the state of dying, really do have nightmares..
Quote from: marie glen on October 01, 2018, 08:07:53 PMinteresting.. maybe the unsaved in hades (not hell) - in the state of death, or perhaps even in the state of dying, really do have nightmares
Dr. Maurice Rawlings, _Beyond Death's Door_ (1978), 172pp. On 19:
Each time he regained heartbeat and respiration, the patient screamed, "I am in hell!" ....he had a terrified look.... a grotesque grimace expressing sheer horror.... he said, "Don't you unerstand? I am in hell. Each time you quit I go back to hell! Don't let me go back to hell!"
:2c: reconsider.......what you are crediting to God's name here.the gates of hell shall Not prevail..BECAUSE OF GOD AND CHRIST.....
discerning the profane from the Holy........discern the loving Father[God is love] from this'portrayl' and'image'and 'likeness'of the
'god/prince'of this world.whose image and likeness?I can see this same scenario playingout in
thenews..psychopaths torturing..serial killers..and various waterboarding and such techniques..of corrupt governments.
can't you just see Jesus doing these things?HaveIbeen that long withyou andyou don't know me?
He who says 'O''death,I shall be thy plagues!" if...the 'light' that be in thee,be darkness...how greatis that darkness...
no doubt satan would love to torture mankind in spirit form,also. didn't he say..Iwillraisemy throne abovethe starsof heaven.?
bad enough his works in man's weak corruptible flesh. But the accusorofthe brethren[allmen] was thrown to the earth. He can
kill our body then do nothing else.
dowe want aneye for eye,tooth for tooth..for others..but mercy and grace for ourselves? acheating pairof scales..usedby thosewith
scalesover their eyes . FOR GOD HAS BOUND UP ALL MEN IN DISOBEDIECE,IN ORDER TO SHOW MERCY UNTO ALL.
are we to carefully measure outthe tenth,mint/dill..and forget the weightier matters. Like justice..andImean God'sjustice
ofgiving/restoring the Kingdom untomen..the kingdom/dominion that the liar/thief andmurderer of man usurped in the garden
Babylon she-ol[le[d]] and been around alongtime. Proverbs 7;21-27 she seduced him with her smooth talk....her houseis ahighway
to the grave,leading down to the chambers of death.
Is torture really a 'Good" way to get someone to confess? seems it brings about false confessions,also. Iv'e read different papers on it.
seems to me the prodigal realized the love his Father had for him in spite of his behavior is what made the son set out for home..and
the reception of open arms in love is what made him say what he did.
Quote from: sheila on October 03, 2018, 04:35:00 PM
Is torture really a 'Good" way to get someone to confess? seems it brings about false confessions,also. Iv'e read different papers on it.
seems to me the prodigal realized the love his Father had for him in spite of his behavior is what made the son set out for home..and
the reception of open arms in love is what made him say what he did.
:thumbsup:
Yes, but what has to happen before the prodigal son realises the love of his father and sets out for his home? And I'm not referring to those who come to repentance during their life on earth; personally, I have found it helpful to pursue this avenue of thought a little further.
Perhaps most people who have known the Love of the Saviour, in part at least, are right in thinking that most people are basically decent, but some get a little misguided and selfish, and a few go well off the rails; but that it's not all too serious that it can't be sorted with prayers for guidance from Christ. Well, perhaps in many cases this is true. But I would propose it is not as simplistic as that in some cases, and I will try to explain this point of view.
Is it really that hard to realise that there are some beings – once human – who do not want light, love and spiritual joy? Indeed, it is in their apparent nature to hate such things and to war against them. So how does such a one become tender enough to receive Divine guidance and to seek the love of his father? How?
Perhaps an angel, bright and holy, should approach such a one and tell him that he is loved and to repent? But such a one as I have in mind will hate the angel and will seek to hurt the angel; such a one would have the deepest loathing for anything or anyone exhibiting goodness; such a one seeks to dominate and rule and cause pain.
Do I exaggerate? Have you not heard of even humans in the flesh who commit abominations against the innocent, accounts of which are not suitable for publishing – and they do it for the satisfaction of their perverted desires? Then I speak of those and worse.
Such a one has turned from good on purpose; such a one delights in evil; such a one relishes seeing others in anguish; such a one cannot abide to see one in joy because the only urge is to see others suffer, and then suffer some more; for such a one only exists to see others writhe in agony, either at his hand or at the hand of one that he has already subjugated. I exaggerate? My opinion is that I have not even touched the surface of the blackness in their souls.
Why do humans assume that because a person passes out of his physical body that he is somehow going to be converted to a loving, caring, gentle humble being when he arrives on the other side? Where does such an idea come from? An instant perfected character from doctrinal belief perhaps? "I am saved and therefore I am fit to reside in the highest heaven" or some such fancy? Not in my opinion.
God's children must learn by experience, they must learn to be all-wise, they must learn to be completely selfless. For God to give His children the power that He has in store for them, then selfishness must be totally absent lest destruction comes about to the soul. Is a human being ready for such power simply because they have left their one and only life on earth in the flesh? I would say: "No, not in my opinion".
I would say that some further thought needs to go into this subject.
Why is it considered that the habits of a lifetime of filth and vice are somehow miraculously abandoned on the arrival in another state of being – and, for the sake of making a point, I will say that there are beings who have sought darkness and evil, indeed who have practiced it for decades while in the earth body, have relished in the thought of making a pact with a darker being. Can anyone say in all knowledge that there have never been any like this? I would say there have been a fair number of devils to pass out of the flesh like this – I say "devils" but I must clarify that I speak of those once children of God and still children of God in essence.
I have said this before: In my view, in the earth life such a character does not wish to escape the growing cravings for vice but chooses instead to willingly reject the influences of God and His holy angelic ministers, and of preferring, of having a propensity for, and even relishing, the death caused by vice, impurity and evil in contrast to the life of holiness and purity and love.
Such a one exalts the animal instincts to the practical extinction of the spiritual instincts; such a one degrades even the lowest of the physical, the corporeal; of feeding, cultivating and obsessing over sensual earthly lusts; of depraving the sensations and the lowest of tastes until they are grotesque distortions; of reducing the human to the level of the lowest beast.
And so he passes out of the earth life: Yet, in such a one the Divine essence is suffocated and quenched, the baser elements of the carnal were highlighted, fostered, forced on, and developed to improper excess. They achieved absolute dominance, they quenched the spirit and extinguished all desire for progress which not only had no meaningful purpose, but which was abhorrent even in contemplation.
He who is filthy, let him be filthy still. The habits of the vices which were all-in-all sustain and perpetuate themselves, they blackens further his soul-body, and what is more, he wills it; and habits of vice drag the rogue who has submitted himself totally to the animal recreations further and further away from the path of progress, until even the soul-body resembles a beast-like being, diseased and afflicted; the unhealthily stimulated passions now seek to devour themselves as they have each gained the desire to rule; and the voice of the spirit is obscured and cannot be heard for a terrible period.
Down the soul must sink, down and down, down, further and further, until it is "lost" in all but impenetrable unintelligibility.
Now, if you have come this far, please bear with me. On the way down to the uttermost outer darkness, do you think that this soul was alone? Yes, alone perhaps inside, but not alone from other similar inhabitants; similar and yet different; they are different because they have different individual characters and they are different because their wills are of various strengths, and the stronger wills can cause the greatest pain to others; and they are similar because they preferred darkness to light.
And what of these "fellow" creatures? Each wants to rule the others, each wants the power to cause anguish to any rival. And pity those foolish enough to have fallen that far who arrive afresh from a lighter place, for in the context of such a situation it should not be difficult to see the evil glee of existing inhabitants as they fall upon the newcomer and devise unthinkable ways to bring pain.
I think that perhaps I ought to stop here because if I have not made my point by now then perhaps I should hold my tongue, so to speak. This is not the picture painted by the experiences of fundamentalist Christians who report their near death experiences, but I think I can understand why their accounts come out as they do.
But one should always be reminded that God cannot fail and that He has ensured that even such souls who have fallen, no, who have consciously and willingly taken themselves to the teeming pits of the outer darkness – even such as these shall be revived by the constant love poured upon them by the One who gave them life, perhaps slowly and after a while, but even such as these shall return to the Father, they shall bow their heads in adoration and gratitude to the Divine beauty of the One True God – they shall be renewed, restored, perfected – even such as these.
Peace and Peace again.
..have you not read of the demoniac possessed of a legion?that when Jesus cast them out..the man was in his 'right'mind?
men couldn't approach him..without injury..he hung out among the tombs.the 'beast'and beastly behavior that
accompanies it..is cast into the LOF when Jesus seperates them. :2c:
not to debate..just thoughts expressed in reply to your reasoning.
Quote from: sheila on October 04, 2018, 12:26:36 AM
..have you not read of the demoniac possessed of a legion?that when Jesus cast them out..the man was in his 'right'mind?
men couldn't approach him..without injury..he hung out among the tombs.the 'beast'and beastly behavior that
accompanies it..is cast into the LOF when Jesus seperates them. :2c:
not to debate..just thoughts expressed in reply to your reasoning.
Sheila,
Personally, I see a
vast difference between a man who is vacant enough to allow wandering spirits to inhabit and abuse his physical body...
...and a man who is as evil as all those wandering spirits put together...
Quote from: lastpost on October 04, 2018, 01:00:10 AMPersonally, I see a vast difference between a man who is vacant enough to allow wandering spirits to inhabit and abuse his physical body...
...and a man who is as evil as all those wandering spirits put together...
One boy started an extreme interest in Hitler, and even hung up a poster of him, and then one day came into church cursing in fluent German. The demon was cast out, and supposedly was one of 6,000 demons associated with Hitler's earthly life. I recall reading this in
_Do Greater Things: Activating the Kingdom to Heal the Sick and Love the Lost_ (2018) by Robby Dawkins.
https://www.amazon.com/Do-Greater-Things-Activating-Kingdom/dp/0800798589/
Quote from: sheila on October 03, 2018, 04:35:00 PMIs torture really a 'Good" way to get someone to confess? seems it brings about false confessions,also. Iv'e read different papers on it.
seems to me the prodigal realized the love his Father had for him in spite of his behavior is what made the son set out for home..and
the reception of open arms in love is what made him say what he did.
Your recollection of the prodigal son story differs from mine.
"Is torture really a 'Good" way to get someone to confess?"
Confess what? (that torture is A Bad Thing?)
Quote from: sheila on October 03, 2018, 04:27:35 PMreconsider.......what you are crediting to God's name here.the gates of hell shall Not prevail
Who is crediting what to God's name? (creating humans and angels that have the free will to harm and to do good to others?) Yes, ultimately hell won't prevail, but in the meantime, the kingdom of darkness is bringing pain misery and death to far too many humans.
"no doubt satan would love to torture mankind in spirit form,also.... bad enough his works in man's weak corruptible flesh"
Indeed.
"he can kill our body then do nothing else"
Reference? Can satan attack many humans' spirits while those humans are alive on earth?
Quote from: DavidFord on October 04, 2018, 02:40:07 AM
Quote from: sheila on October 03, 2018, 04:35:00 PMIs torture really a 'Good" way to get someone to confess? seems it brings about false confessions,also. Iv'e read different papers on it.
seems to me the prodigal realized the love his Father had for him in spite of his behavior is what made the son set out for home..and
the reception of open arms in love is what made him say what he did.
Your recollection of the prodigal son story differs from mine.
"Is torture really a 'Good" way to get someone to confess?"
Confess what? (that torture is A Bad Thing?)
I think she means this:
Phillipians 2
10That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father
1 Corinthians 12
3wherefore, I give you to understand that no one, in the Spirit of God speaking, saith Jesus [is] anathema, and no one is able to say Jesus [is] Lord, except in the Holy Spirit.
Quote from: lastpost on October 03, 2018, 11:24:21 PMwhat has to happen before the prodigal son realises the love of his father and sets out for his home?
The prodigal had to 'hit rock bottom' before heading home.
"the evil glee of existing inhabitants as they fall upon the newcomer and devise unthinkable ways to bring pain"
A refrain in Melvin's account is demons doing to people exactly what those people had done on earth to others. Something similar was said in
Philip Mantofa Goes To Hell - WP Films (2011)
https://youtu.be/RVwtbR2DHc4
I didn't watch the video but I did read this comment from someone who claims to also have had a hell vision:
"He told me to pray for the people in hell as Him and the angels watched in the elevator that leads to Heaven"
I like to see people are having universal salvation revealed to them.
Quote from: CST on September 27, 2018, 01:20:03 PMDo you believe that Satan is literally, a great, red (fire-like) dragon, with wings that once flew around Heaven cooking and/or eating God's angels? Because if you don't it's difficult to claim Satan is 'literally' anything.
I don't recall reading anything about Satan "cooking and/or eating God's angels." I bet Satan can take the form of a dragon. Praying Medic once saw a dragon when praying against the Orphan Spirit. The devil can appear as a seemingly-good thing:
2 Cor 11:13-15 (DLNT)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Corinthians%2011:13-15&version=DLNT
13 For such _ones are_ false-apostles, deceitful workers, transforming _themselves_ into apostles of Christ. 14 And no wonder, for Satan himself transforms _himself_ into _an_ angel _of_ light. 15 Therefore _it is_ no great _thing_ if also his ministers are disguising _themselves_ as ministers _of_ righteousness— whose end shall be according to their works.
QuoteBut that's the problem. It's easy to say 'satan' doesn't mean 'Satan' whenever it doesn't suit you so what's to stop you saying 'satan' never means 'Satan?
Anyone can say anything. Context often provides insight as to how a word is best understood. Sometimes people will disagree about a word's meaning. Do you agree with me that God conversed with a malicious, conscious entity about Job?
7854. שָׂטָן (satan)
https://biblehub.com/hebrew/strongs_7854.htm
Numbers 22:32
HEB: אָנֹכִי֙ יָצָ֣אתִי לְשָׂטָ֔ן כִּֽי־ יָרַ֥ט
NAS: I have come out as an adversary, because
KJV: behold, I went out to withstand thee, because [thy] way
INT: I have come an adversary because was contrary
....
Job 2:2
HEB: תָּבֹ֑א וַיַּ֨עַן הַשָּׂטָ֤ן אֶת־ יְהוָה֙
NAS: have you come from? Then Satan answered
KJV: comest thou? And Satan answered
INT: come answered Satan the LORD and said
Job 2:3
HEB: יְהוָ֜ה אֶל־ הַשָּׂטָ֗ן הֲשַׂ֣מְתָּ לִבְּךָ֮
NAS: said to Satan, Have you considered
KJV: said unto Satan, Hast thou
INT: the LORD to Satan thou considered
Job 2:4
HEB: וַיַּ֧עַן הַשָּׂטָ֛ן אֶת־ יְהוָ֖ה
NAS: Satan answered the LORD
KJV: And Satan answered the LORD,
INT: answered Satan the LORD and said
Job 2:6
HEB: יְהוָ֛ה אֶל־ הַשָּׂטָ֖ן הִנּ֣וֹ בְיָדֶ֑ךָ
NAS: said to Satan, Behold,
KJV: said unto Satan, Behold, he [is] in thine hand;
INT: God to Satan behold your power
Job 2:7
HEB: וַיֵּצֵא֙ הַשָּׂטָ֔ן מֵאֵ֖ת פְּנֵ֣י
NAS: Then Satan went out from the presence
KJV: So went Satan forth from the presence
INT: went Satan the presence of the LORD
Psalm 109:6
HEB: עָלָ֣יו רָשָׁ֑ע וְ֝שָׂטָ֗ן יַעֲמֹ֥ד עַל־
NAS: over him, And let an accuser stand
KJV: thou a wicked man over him: and let Satan stand
INT: over A wicked an accuser stand over
I believe people in sheol are sleeping, awaiting resurrection. People ion the lake of fire will be looking into the eyes of Jesus(His eyes were as flames Rev 1)- the ultimate soul mirror/heart piercer- where they will have the secrets of their hearts exposed to the light(light is fire to darkness....transforms the and consumes the earthly into the heavenly) leading to repentance(every knee shall bow) and forgives(every tongue confess).
There is no penalty phase which could somehow pay for sins committed. It is for the purpose of awakening and transformation that God disciplines the wicked. That awakening is portrayed in Acts chapter 2
"'The Lord said to my Lord,
"Sit at my right hand,
35until I make your enemies your footstool."'
36Let all the house of Israel therefore know for certain that God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified."
37Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Brothers, what shall we do?" 38And Peter said to them, "Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself." 40And with many other words he bore witness and continued to exhort them, saying, "Save yourselves from this crooked generation."
When a soul is convinced of the Lordship and salvation of Christ through the gospel they are "cut to the heart"- as surely all will be before His mighty throne and in His flaming presence.
they, too, will drink the wine of God's fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented(basanos) with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. (Rev 14:10)
Perhaps remotely from the same as basis (through the notion of going to the bottom); a touch-stone, i.e. (by analogy) torture -- torment.(Strong)
Strong's definition of "bassanos"(Gr. for "tormented") makes an assumption that "touch-stone" or "basis" is a metaphor for torment. It is rather a metaphor for "assaying" a stone, to get to the core(imo)
This is, to me anyway, is made clear in Hebrews 4:12-16
12For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart. 13And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are open and laid bare to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do.
All things are open to Him with whom we have to do. All things are disposed for the purpose of reconciling all, gathering all things into one in Christ so that God may be all in all. The mysteries of the scriptures do not render well for literalists, which is exactly how the Logos planned it to be.
As carnal people, judgement is seen as "out of anger for the purpose of retribution"
As we grow judgement is seen as corrective and for the purpose of redressing injustices
As spiritually mature people all judgment is seen as awakening repentance and reconciliation for the purpose of union, oneness and transformation into the image of Christ.
Quote from: eaglesway on October 05, 2018, 02:35:10 AM
I believe people in sheol are sleeping, awaiting resurrection. .... There is no penalty phase.... It is for the purpose of awakening and transformation that God disciplines the wicked
Do you think people in Hades "are sleeping"?
Luke 16 (DLNT)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke+16&version=DLNT
....And the rich man also died and was buried. 23 And having lifted-up his eyes in Hades while being in torments, he sees Abraham from a-distance, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 And he, having called, said, 'Father Abraham, have-mercy-on me and send Lazarus in order that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool-off my tongue, because I am suffering-pain in this flame'. .... warn them in order that they also might not come to this place of torment'.
Do you think the rich man was: in Hades? in Sheol? sleeping? experiencing discipline?
Luke 16 (based on Younan, from Aramaic), http://www.dukhrana.com
19. Now there was a certain rich man, and he would wear purple and linen.
And everyday he would luxuriously make merry.
20. And there was a certain poor man whose name (was) Lazar.
And he would lay at the gate of that rich man, while being afflicted with sores.
21. And he was longing to fill his stomach
from the crumbs that fell from the table of that rich man.
But even the dogs would come lick his sores.
22. And now this happened:
that poor man died and the angels carried him to the bosom of Awraham,
and also that rich man died and was buried.
23. And while he was tormented in Sheol,
he lifted up his eyes and gazed from afar upon Awraham and upon Lazar at his bosom.
24. And he cried out in a loud voice and said,
'Abbi [my father] Awraham, have compassion on me
and send to Lazar that he may dip the tip (of) his finger in water
and to moisten my tongue for me,
for behold, I'm tormented in this flame!'
25. Awraham said to him,
'My son, remember that you received your good things during your life,
and Lazar his bad things.
And now behold, he is comfortable here
and you are tormented.
26. Besides all these things, a great chasm is placed between you and us
so that those who desire to pass over from here to you are not able,
and neither (are) those from there (able) to pass over to us.'
27. He said to him,
'If so, I beseech you Abbi
that you send him to Abbi's house,
28. for I have five brothers.
Let him go witness (to) them
that they not also come to this place of torment.'
29. Awraham said to him,
'They have Moshe and the nabia [prophets]--
let them hear them.'
30. But he said to him,
'No Abbi Awraham,
but if a man from the dead should go to them,
they will repent.'
31. Awraham said to him,
'If they do not listen to Moshe and to the nabia,
if a man should rise from the dead,
they would also not believe him.'"
Quote from: eaglesway on October 05, 2018, 02:35:10 AMActs chapter 2
"'The Lord said to my Lord,
"Sit at my right hand,
35until I make your enemies your footstool."'
36Let all the house of Israel therefore know for certain that God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified."
37Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Brothers, what shall we do?" 38And Peter said to them, "Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself." 40And with many other words he bore witness and continued to exhort them, saying, "Save yourselves from this crooked generation."
....
Hebrews 4:12-16
12For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart. 13And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are open and laid bare to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do.
All things are open to Him with whom we have to do. All things are disposed for the purpose of reconciling all, gathering all things into one in Christ so that God may be all in all. The mysteries of the scriptures do not render well for literalists, which is exactly how the Logos planned it to be
Acts 2 (based on Younan), http://www.dukhrana.com
34-35. For it was not Dawid (that) did ascend into Heaven, because he said,
MrYa [Master YHWH] said to Mari [my Lord],
Sit yourself at my right hand,
until I place your enemies (as) a footstool for your feet'.'
36. Certainly, therefore, let all the house of Israel know that Allaha has made this Yeshua, whom you crucified, MrYa [Master YHWH] and Meshikha [Messiah/ Annointed One]."
37. And when they heard these things they were touched in their hearts, and they said to Shimon and the rest of the Shelikha [Apostles], "What should we do, our brothers?" 38. Shimon said to them, "Repent and be baptized each of you in the name of MrYa Yeshua for the forgiveness of sins, that you may receive the gift of the Rukha d'Qudsha [Spirit of Holiness]. 39. For the promise was to you and to your children and to all those who are far away, he whom Allaha will call them." 40. And with many other words he would witness to them and he would beseech them while saying, "Save (yourselves) from this perverse generation."
Hebrews 4:12-16 (from Aramaic), http://www.dukhrana.com
12 (Etheridge) For living is the Word of Aloha, and all-acting, and more penetrating than a two-edged sword [The sword of two mouths] , and entereth to the separation of the soul and the spirit, and of the joints, and of the marrow, and the bones, and discerneth the reasonings and counsel of the heart.
13 (Murdock) neither is there any creature, which is concealed from before him; but every thing is naked and manifest before his eyes, to whom we are to give account.
14 (Etheridge) Therefore having such a great High Priest, Jeshu Meshiha, the Son of Aloha, who hath ascended to heaven, let us persevere in the confession of him.
15 (Murdock) For we have not a high priest, who cannot sympathize with our infirmity; but [one] who was tempted in all respects like us, aside from sin.
16 (Etheridge) Let us therefore approach with confidence [With revealed eye] to the throne of his grace, that we may receive mercy [Mercies] , and find grace for help in the time of affliction.
Sheol is the abode of all the dead. Sleep, to me, is a metaphor for the unknown state in sheol. sheol is hidden from view for us, so I make no hard statement about that state. As to whether Jesus' parable about the beggar and the rich man- I am not certain that that is a definition of the state of the dead in sheol at all, since it dissent seem to line up with a lot of what the scriptures say about the dead., but I have no axe to grind either way. According to Romans 2 no one will receive judgment until they stand before the throne of Christ.
For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; 13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.
Perhaps when we die, as when we go to sleep, we are not conscious of the passing of time, awakening at the judgment seat of Christ. This state possibly, "out of time" in a holding pattern, so to speak. I have no ax to grind about it because I don't think the scriptures define it clearly, on purpose. Some mysteries are meant to remain mysteries, which is why Jesus said
This is why I speak to them in parables: "Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand." Mt 13;10
"So was fulfilled what was spoken through the prophet: "I will open my mouth in parables, I will utter things hidden since the creation of the world." Mt 13:35
Quote from: DavidFord on October 04, 2018, 02:49:16 PM
I don't recall reading anything about Satan "cooking and/or eating God's angels." I bet Satan can take the form of a dragon. Praying Medic once saw a dragon when praying against the Orphan Spirit. The devil can appear as a seemingly-good thing:
That question wasn't meant for you so for you to try to answer it is irrelevant. The current Western image of a dragon is a large winged lizard that breaths fire and eats people. My reference was to this because I feel that to perceive Satan in this way is obviously ridiculous. 'Dragon' however may not be the best translation.
QuoteBut that's the problem. It's easy to say 'satan' doesn't mean 'Satan' whenever it doesn't suit you so what's to stop you saying 'satan' never means 'Satan?
Anyone can say anything. Context often provides insight as to how a word is best understood. Sometimes people will disagree about a word's meaning. Do you agree with me that God conversed with a malicious, conscious entity about Job?
No!
Quote from: CST on October 05, 2018, 01:21:40 PMThe current Western image of a dragon is a large winged lizard that breaths fire and eats people. My reference was to this because I feel that to perceive Satan in this way is obviously ridiculous. 'Dragon' however may not be the best translation.
Maybe monster or serpent are better translations.
Jeremiah 51:34
https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/Jeremiah%2051:34
ESV "Nebuchadnezzar the king of Babylon has devoured me; he has crushed me; he has made me an empty vessel; he has swallowed me like a monster; he has filled his stomach with my delicacies; he has rinsed me out. ....
HCSB "Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon has devoured me; he has crushed me. He has set me aside like an empty dish; he has swallowed me like a sea monster; he filled his belly with my delicacies; he has vomited me out," ....
NIV "Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon has devoured us, he has thrown us into confusion, he has made us an empty jar. Like a serpent he has swallowed us and filled his stomach with our delicacies, and then has spewed us out. ....
YLT Devoured us, crushed us, hath Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon, He hath set us [as] an empty vessel, He hath swallowed us as a dragon, He hath filled his belly with my dainties, He hath driven us away.
Do you agree with me that following a 40-day fast, Jesus was tested by a malicious, conscious entity? With who or what did Jesus have this conversation?:
Mt 4 (from Aramaic, based on Paul Younan), http://dukhrana.com
1. Then Yeshua was taken by the Rukha d'Qudsha [Spirit of Holiness] to the desert to be tempted by Akelqartza [the Accuser/ Slanderer/ Backbiter]. 2. And he fasted forty days and forty nights, and after which he hungered. 3. And he that was tempting approached and said to him, "If you (are) the Son of Allaha, say to these rocks, 'Become bread.'" 4. And he answered and said,
"(It) is written that,
'barnasha [man] does not live by bread alone,
but by all the words that proceed from the mouth of Allaha.'"
5. Then Akelqartza took him to the holy medintha [city] and raised him upon the edge of the temple 6. and said to him, "If you (are) the Son of Allaha, cast yourself down, for it is written that,
'His angels He commands concerning you,
and upon their hands they will bear you up,
that your foot should not strike upon a rock'."
7. Yeshua said to him,
"Again, it is written that,
'you shall not test MrYa [Master YHWH] Allahak [your Allaha].'"
8. Again Akelqartza took him to a tuora [mountain] that (was) very high and showed him all the kingdoms of the ailma [world] and shubkhen [their glory], 9. and said to him, "All these I (will) give to you if you will fall (and) thesagud [worship] me." 10. Then Yeshua said to him,
"Leave Satana [Adversary], for it is written that,
'thesagud [you shall worship] MrYa Allahak,
and Him alone thepalukh [you shall serve].'"
11. Then Akelqartza left him and behold, malaka [angels] approached and were ministering to him.
Quote from: eaglesway on October 05, 2018, 09:00:07 AMAs to whether Jesus' parable about the beggar and the rich man- I am not certain that that is a definition of the state of the dead in sheol at all, since it dissent seem to line up with a lot of what the scriptures say about the dead., but I have no axe to grind either way. According to Romans 2 no one will receive judgment until they stand before the throne of Christ.
In Aramaic, Jesus' story mentions sheol. In Greek, the story mentions hades.
"it dissent seem to line up with a lot of what the scriptures say about the dead"
What are 3 of the scriptures you're thinking of?
Romans 2 (NKJV)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=romans+2&version=NKJV
3 And do you think this, O man, you who judge those practicing such things, and doing the same, that you will escape the judgment of God? 4 Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance? 5 But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
6 who "will render to each one according to his deeds":
7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath,
9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil,
of the Jew first and also of the Greek;
10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good,
to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
11 For there is no partiality with God.
Do you think evildoers open themselves up to harm and suffering-- well before "they stand before the throne of Christ"-- because of their evildoing?
Romans 1
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+1&version=NKJV
26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. 27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.
Quote from: eaglesway on October 05, 2018, 09:00:07 AMPerhaps when we die, as when we go to sleep, we are not conscious of the passing of time, awakening at the judgment seat of Christ.
Do you think God "knows how.... to reserve the unjust under punishment for the day of judgment"?
2 Peter 2 (NKJV)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Peter+2&version=NKJV
4 For if God....
9 then the Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of temptations and to reserve the unjust under punishment for the day of judgment, 10 and especially those who walk according to the flesh in the lust of uncleanness and despise authority. ....
Do you agree with me that:
at one point, "the gospel was preached also to those who are dead"?
at one point, Jesus the Messiah "preached to the souls imprisoned in Sheol"?
https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?qs_version=NKJV&quicksearch=preach&begin=67&end=67&limit=500
1 Peter 3:19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison,
1 Peter 4:6 For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
1Peter 3:18 (from Aramaic), http://dukhrana.com
(Etheridge) Because the Meshiha also once died on account of sins, the just on account of sinners, that he might bring [Or, present.] us unto Aloha. And dead in the body and alive in the Spirit,
(Murdock) For the Messiah also once died for our sins, the righteous for sinners; that he might bring you to God. And he died in body, but lived in spirit.
1Peter 3:19
(Etheridge) he preached unto those souls who were held in sheul,
(Lamsa) And he preached to the souls imprisoned in Sheol;
1Peter 3:20
(Etheridge) those who before were disobedient in the days of Nuch;[Or, Nooch.] while the long-suffering of Aloha commanded that he should make the ark, upon the hope of their conversion, and eight souls only entered therein, and were saved in the waters.
(Murdock) which were formerly disobedient, in the days of Noah, when the long suffering of God commanded an ark to be made, in hope of their repentance; and eight souls only entered into it, and were kept alive in the waters.
Quote from: DavidFord on October 06, 2018, 01:01:59 AM
Quote from: CST on October 05, 2018, 01:21:40 PMThe current Western image of a dragon is a large winged lizard that breaths fire and eats people. My reference was to this because I feel that to perceive Satan in this way is obviously ridiculous. 'Dragon' however may not be the best translation.
Maybe monster or serpent are better translations.
Jeremiah 51:34
https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/Jeremiah%2051:34
ESV "Nebuchadnezzar the king of Babylon has devoured me; he has crushed me; he has made me an empty vessel; he has swallowed me like a monster; he has filled his stomach with my delicacies; he has rinsed me out. ....
HCSB "Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon has devoured me; he has crushed me. He has set me aside like an empty dish; he has swallowed me like a sea monster; he filled his belly with my delicacies; he has vomited me out," ....
NIV "Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon has devoured us, he has thrown us into confusion, he has made us an empty jar. Like a serpent he has swallowed us and filled his stomach with our delicacies, and then has spewed us out. ....
YLT Devoured us, crushed us, hath Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon, He hath set us [as] an empty vessel, He hath swallowed us as a dragon, He hath filled his belly with my dainties, He hath driven us away.
Do you agree with me that following a 40-day fast, Jesus was tested by a malicious, conscious entity? With who or what did Jesus have this conversation?:
Mt 4 (from Aramaic, based on Paul Younan), http://dukhrana.com
1. Then Yeshua was taken by the Rukha d'Qudsha [Spirit of Holiness] to the desert to be tempted by Akelqartza [the Accuser/ Slanderer/ Backbiter]. 2. And he fasted forty days and forty nights, and after which he hungered. 3. And he that was tempting approached and said to him, "If you (are) the Son of Allaha, say to these rocks, 'Become bread.'" 4. And he answered and said,
"(It) is written that,
'barnasha [man] does not live by bread alone,
but by all the words that proceed from the mouth of Allaha.'"
5. Then Akelqartza took him to the holy medintha [city] and raised him upon the edge of the temple 6. and said to him, "If you (are) the Son of Allaha, cast yourself down, for it is written that,
'His angels He commands concerning you,
and upon their hands they will bear you up,
that your foot should not strike upon a rock'."
7. Yeshua said to him,
"Again, it is written that,
'you shall not test MrYa [Master YHWH] Allahak [your Allaha].'"
8. Again Akelqartza took him to a tuora [mountain] that (was) very high and showed him all the kingdoms of the ailma [world] and shubkhen [their glory], 9. and said to him, "All these I (will) give to you if you will fall (and) thesagud [worship] me." 10. Then Yeshua said to him,
"Leave Satana [Adversary], for it is written that,
'thesagud [you shall worship] MrYa Allahak,
and Him alone thepalukh [you shall serve].'"
11. Then Akelqartza left him and behold, malaka [angels] approached and were ministering to him.
Not really, there'd be utterly different translations made me cry, 'serpent' is vague and 'monster' gives no information at all. So no I don't think those words are helpful. Satan at the the time (allow his existence for the moment) was an angel in rebellion and would have looked like every other angel.
I've already answer the other question.
Quote from: CST on September 26, 2018, 12:29:28 PM
Right, continuing.
I've said this before somewhere but, to me, in the book of Job, Satan represents Job's enemies. These are also his (false) friends who are increasingly unhelpful to him during the course of the book. These people are envious of Job and have brought complaints about him to God. Satan represents these complaints. I have come to this conclusion because Satan disappears from the text once he's all but got his way. After this the three 'friends' appear and try to get Job to deny his righteousness and do all sorts of other things he shouldn't do. Basically the sort of things Satan wants Job to do. Satan never appears again but the 'friends' are upbraided by God at the end. Hence why I suspect they are actually the same.
"to me, in the book of Job, Satan represents Job's enemies. These are also his (false) friends"
If I substitute "Job's (false) friends" for "Satan" in the Bible passages below, the passages wouldn't make sense to me. It seems to me that Satan (not Job's false friends) killed almost all of Job's servants by getting the Sabeans and Chaldeans to attack, and by having fire fall from heaven to burn many up, and Satan (not Job's false friends) had all of Job's children killed from a great wind that collapsed a house, and Satan (not Job's false friends) afflicted Job with painful boils.
Job 1 (NKJV)
9 So Satan answered the Lord and said, "Does Job fear God for nothing? 10 Have You not made a hedge around him, around his household, and around all that he has on every side? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions have increased in the land. 11 But now, stretch out Your hand and touch all that he has, and he will surely curse You to Your face!"
12 And the Lord said to Satan, "Behold, all that he has is in your power; only do not lay a hand on his person."
So Satan went out from the presence of the Lord.
13 Now there was a day when his sons and daughters were eating and drinking wine in their oldest brother's house; 14 and a messenger came to Job and said, "The oxen were plowing and the donkeys feeding beside them, 15 when the Sabeans raided them and took them away—indeed they have killed the servants with the edge of the sword; and I alone have escaped to tell you!"
16 While he was still speaking, another also came and said, "The fire of God fell from heaven and burned up the sheep and the servants, and consumed them; and I alone have escaped to tell you!"
17 While he was still speaking, another also came and said, "The Chaldeans formed three bands, raided the camels and took them away, yes, and killed the servants with the edge of the sword; and I alone have escaped to tell you!"
18 While he was still speaking, another also came and said, "Your sons and daughters were eating and drinking wine in their oldest brother's house, 19 and suddenly a great wind came from across the wilderness and struck the four corners of the house, and it fell on the young people, and they are dead; and I alone have escaped to tell you!"
20 Then Job arose, tore his robe, and shaved his head; and he fell to the ground and worshiped. 21 And he said:
"Naked I came from my mother's womb,
And naked shall I return there.
The Lord gave, and the Lord has taken away;
Blessed be the name of the Lord."
22 In all this Job did not sin nor charge God with wrong.
Job 2
4 So Satan answered the Lord and said, "Skin for skin! Yes, all that a man has he will give for his life. 5 But stretch out Your hand now, and touch his bone and his flesh, and he will surely curse You to Your face!"
6 And the Lord said to Satan, "Behold, he is in your hand, but spare his life."
7 So Satan went out from the presence of the Lord, and struck Job with painful boils from the sole of his foot to the crown of his head.
Quote from: CST on September 26, 2018, 12:29:28 PMOh, my! Finish the quote:
'And He said to them, I saw Satan fall like lightening from heaven. Behold, I have given you authority to tread upon serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy; and nothing shall hurt you. Nevertheless do not rejoice in this, that the spirits are subject to you; but rejoice that your names are written in heaven."
I suspect the serpents and scorpions may well not be literal here. To go from demons to serpents and scorpions seems a bit of a downward step. Even I can tread on and crush scorpions and serpents if I'm quick enough but I think it safer not to try. But note the part at the end I have highlighted, I think it's quite curious that a. Jesus has them prioritise there place in heaven in their rejoicing and b. when Jesus gives His answer He doesn't say 'demons' He says 'spirits'. Obviously a much broader term. Of course, Jesus does use the word demons but here He appears to be correcting the disciples and the fact He doesn't use the word 'demons' is curious.
In the Aramaic for the passage, Jesus does use 'demons':
Luke 10 (from Aramaic, based on Younan), http://dukhrana.com
17. And those seventy whom he had sent returned with great joy and said to him, "Maran [our Lord], even shada [demons] were subject to us by your name!" 18. And he said to them,
"I did see him, Satana, falling like lightning from heaven.
19. Behold I give shultana [authority] to you
to be tread(ing) on snakes and scorpions and all the power of the enemy,
and nothing will harm you.
20. Nevertheless, do not rejoice in this, d'shada [that demons] are subject to you,
rather be glad that your names are written in heaven."
interlinear search for: luk 10:20
http://aramaicdb.lightofword.org/index.php/en/interlinear-search
Do you think 'unclean spirits' are demons?
search of YLT for: unclean spirits
https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=unclean+spirits&version=YLT&resultspp=500
Matthew 12:43-45
`And, when the unclean spirit may go forth from the man, it doth walk through dry places seeking rest, and doth not find; then it saith, I will turn back to my house whence I came forth; and having come, it findeth [it] unoccupied, swept, and adorned: then doth it go, and take with itself seven other spirits more evil than itself, and having gone in they dwell there, and the last of that man doth become worse than the first; so shall it be also to this evil generation.'
Matthew 10:1 And having called to him his twelve disciples, he gave to them power over unclean spirits, so as to be casting them out, and to be healing every sickness, and every malady.
Mark 1:27 and they were all amazed, so as to reason among themselves, saying, `What is this? what new teaching [is] this? that with authority also the unclean spirits he commandeth, and they obey him!'
Mark 3:11 and the unclean spirits, when they were seeing him, were falling down before him, and were crying, saying -- `Thou art the Son of God;'
Mark 5:13 and immediately Jesus gave them leave, and having come forth, the unclean spirits did enter into the swine, and the herd did rush down the steep place to the sea -- and they were about two thousand -- and they were choked in the sea.
Mark 6:7 and he doth call near the twelve, and he began to send them forth two by two, and he was giving them power over the unclean spirits,
Luke 4:36 and amazement came upon all, and they were speaking together, with one another, saying, `What [is] this word, that with authority and power he doth command the unclean spirits, and they come forth?'
Luke 6:18 and those harassed by unclean spirits, and they were healed,
Acts 5:16 and there were coming together also the people of the cities round about to Jerusalem, bearing ailing persons, and those harassed by unclean spirits -- who were all healed.
Acts 8:7 for unclean spirits came forth from many who were possessed, crying with a loud voice, and many who have been paralytic and lame were healed,
Revelation 16:13 and I saw [come] out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet, three unclean spirits like frogs --
Quote from: CST on September 26, 2018, 12:29:28 PMDo you believe Satan is an actual dragon? What is an actual dragon doing in heaven, there are none on Earth. The dragon is symbolic of something so is Satan. It doesn't mean Satan is either a literal dragon or anything you might think he is.
Satan isn't "an actual dragon," nor is he an actual lion, nor an actual snake. But he can drastically change appearance, and can act in a dragon-like, lion-like, and snake-like manner.
(from Aramaic, Jan Magiera)
http://aramaicdb.lightofword.org/index.php/en/english-word-search
1Pe 5:8 Be watchful and remember, because your enemy, Satan, roars as a lion and walks about and seeks whom he may swallow.
2Co 11:3 But I fear, that even as the serpent lead Eve astray by his deceit, so your minds will be corrupted from the simplicity that is to Christ.
Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was thrown out, that chief serpent, who is called the Accuser and Satan, who deceived the whole earth. And he was thrown out on the earth and his angels were thrown out with him.
"dragon... there are none on Earth"
Komodo Dragon - Epic Wildlife
https://youtu.be/WCjNQqRdv7U
"Why would Jesus need to distribute drugs when the power of God worked perfectly well?"
Jesus had to make 2 attempts to get a blind man seeing properly. Jesus struggled a little in casting the demons out of the demon-oppressed guy that lived in the cemetary.
"The Bible.... is, however, concerned with our spiritual welfare and some equip us for maintaining is sufficiently. A lack of proper information on demons is a pretty big lack to me."
Many people are unnecessarily suffering from demons that promote disease and mayhem. Agreed, "a lack of proper information on demons"-- and how to dislodge them-- "is a pretty big lack" among far too many people.
do a control-f/ find for: mimic
to get to: Unbound: Expelling the Influence of Demons
http://podbay.fm/show/665532730
"If the fallen angels are in Tartarus, they are somewhere different from the dead in Sheol/Hades aren't they? So I would expect some difference in the state they are in. But obviously your Aramaic doesn't say that, so you don't. Another reason to suspect that the Bible perhaps should properly be in Greek because the Aramaic appears to have no equivalent to 'Tartarus'"
Yes, "if the fallen angels are in Tartarus, they are somewhere different from the dead in Sheol/Hades." Do you think Tartarus exists?
2 Peter 2:4 (Young's Literal Translation)
https://biblehub.com/ylt/2_peter/2.htm
For if God messengers who sinned did not spare, but with chains of thick gloom, having cast [them] down to Tartarus, did deliver [them] to judgment, having been reserved,
2 Peter 2:4 (Aramaic Bible in Plain English)
https://biblehub.com/aramaic-plain-english/2_peter/2.htm
And if God did not spare the Angels who sinned, but cast them down in chains of darkness into the lowest depths and handed them over to be kept for the judgment of torment,
_The Original Aramaic New Testament in Plain English- with Psalms & Proverbs_ 7th edition (2012), 610pp. On 559:
Greek has ... -"Tatarused", "Cast into Tartarus"? - a participle from "Tartarus" not found anywhere else in Greek literature. The noun form - "T..." is found in The LXX (Job 40:20) where it refers to "the quadrapeds in _the deep_". This use of the noun is much more in keeping with the meaning of the Aramaic in this verse ... (tekhtytha) - "the depths".
QuoteBut I don't believe in UR for demons because demons are always presented as being utterly evil and cannot be redeemed. It is their nature to be evil and they take absolute pleasure from causing harm to humans and only from causing pain to humans. It is what they exist for and I have a major moral problem with this.
"demons are always presented as being utterly evil"
Was there ever any point at which the beings now called demons _weren't_ "utterly evil"?
Colossians 1:16 (NKJV)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Colossians+1:16&version=NKJV
For by Him all things were created
that are in heaven and that are on earth,
visible and invisible,
whether thrones or dominions
or principalities or powers.
All things were created through Him and for Him.
"tartarus" I believe began as simply deepest darkness (state of) but then evolved into Greek myth.. Just a theory, I have not researched it. Same with hades, meant hidden/gone/not seen.. But became Greek myth for a level of an afterlife..
Deepest darkness, locked into because they cannot now change their course toward perfection, what with being imperfect, and locked into darkness, so chained and reserved in that state for judgment ('day').. imo. :Peace2:
Quote
Was there ever any point at which the beings now called demons _weren't_ "utterly evil"?
If always evil, where did the angels "fall" from? As we know, it takes all verses..
If the adversary is merely the carnal character within us all.. Why all the metaphor to describe something already openly described?
If there's no belief in rebel angels? Is there belief in angels? They are fully programmed, but man was not? If so, would there be rationality?
Are angels beings? with thought and reaction? Or are they "winds" only? Thoughts? And if so, from whence came evil thoughts? From what source? This to me presents a big problem.
Remedied by the idea of thinking ability including the ability of choice. Doesn't it? Does rationality, naturally, include within it (sooner or later /ultimately) the ability to make choices?
If no.. why or how not?
So say you create a perfect universe. Now what?? Flowers, trees, plants.. animals.. no dog eat dog..
Can you, or how can you, create thinking, reasoning, learning beings?
And keep everything perfect? Can it be done? How can it be done, and still have rational, thinking, pondering, creative beings, with true power of thought? Will very limited power of thought work? Could that be perfect? "Good"? ...Satisfying to the creator?
:Peace2: :2c:
QuoteSome mysteries are meant to remain mysteries, which is why Jesus said
This is why I speak to them in parables: "Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand." Mt 13;10
In my view, understanding that we know very little about everything Divine in its immense totality, is an absolute pre-requisite to learning more about God.
Yet,
understanding (comprehension) that is appropriate to this stage of being (the tabernacle of the flesh) is given to those who sincerely and humbly ask, seek and knock (Matthew 7:7-8).
Therefore, mysteries remain mysteries for some perhaps, but to others it is given to know:
And the disciples came up and said to him, Why speakest thou to them in parables?
And he answering said to them, Because to you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of the heavens, but to them it is not given...
Matthew 13:10-11
Quote from: marie glen on October 06, 2018, 08:03:57 PMAre angels beings? with thought and reaction? Or are they "winds" only?
Yes; yes; no.
Luke 1 (from Aramaic, based on Younan), http://dukhrana.com
11. And a malaka [messenger] of MrYa [Master YHWH] who stood at the right of the altar of incense appeared to him-- to Zakharyah. 12. And when Zakharyah saw him he was dumbfounded and fear fell upon him. 13. And the malaka said to him,
"Do not have fear Zakharyah,
because your prayer has been heard
and your wife Elishwa will bear you a son,
and you will call his name Yukhanan.
14. And you will have joy and gladness
and many will rejoice at his birth.
15. For he will be great before MrYa.
And he will not drink shakra [strong drink] and wine,
and he will be filled with the Rukha d'Qudsha [Spirit of Holiness]
while he is in the womb of his mother.
16. And he will turn many of the sons of Israel to MrYa Allahuon [their Allaha].
17. And he will go before Him in the rukha and in the might of Eliyah the nabia [prophet], that he might
turn the heart of the fathers unto the children,
and those that are not obedient to the knowledge of the just,
and he will prepare a perfect people for MrYa."
18. And Zakharyah said to the malaka, "How should I understand this, for I'm an elderly man and my wife, she is many in her days?" 19. And the malaka answered and said to him, "Ena-na [I am] Gawriel who stands before Allaha, and I have been sent to speak with you and to declare these things. 20. Now you will be dumb and you will not be able to speak until the day that these things happen, because you did not believe these my words which will be fulfilled in their time."
Acts 12 (based on Younan)
5. And as Shimon was watched in prison, a constant prayer was offered by the eidta [congregation] to Allaha for his sake. 6. And in it-- in that very night toward the dawn-- he [Herod] was preparing to deliver him as Shimon was sleeping among two soldiers and he was bound by two chains and others were guarding the gate of the prison. 7. A malaka of MrYa stood above from him, and a nuhra [light] shined in all the building. And he struck him on his side and woke him and said to him, "Arise quickly!" And the chains fell from his hands. 8. And the malaka said to him, "Gird up your loins and put on your sandals." And he did so, and again he said to him, "Wrap (yourself with) your garment and come after me." 9. And he went out and he was following after him while he was not realizing that it was true that (it) was happening by the malaka, for he was thinking that he was seeing a vision. 10. And after they passed the first watch and the second, they came all the way to the gate of iron. And (it) was opened to them of its own will. And after they went out and passed one street, the malaka departed from his presence. 11. Then Shimon realized and said,
"Now I know in truth that MrYa sent malakeh [His angel] and freed me from the hand of the malka [king] Herodus and from the thing which the Yehudeans had planned against me."
Quote from: CST on September 26, 2018, 08:12:12 PMJesus teaches that: "...every one who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart." (Matthew 5:28) This is some sort of hyperbole, surely?
Maybe, and maybe not. Perhaps it's the case that people can influence and do things in the spiritual world with their imaginations. Perhaps a married guy imagining having sex with someone not his wife results in him actually having sex with something not his wife-- not in the physical realm, but in the spiritual realm. Healy saw a young guy's thoughts of mentally stripping a female singer.
Blake Healy, _The Veil: An Invitation to the Unseen Realm_
https://www.amazon.com/Veil-Invitation-Unseen-Realm/dp/1629994901/
Quote from: CST on October 06, 2018, 02:02:21 PM
Quote from: DavidFord on October 06, 2018, 01:01:59 AM
Do you agree with me that following a 40-day fast, Jesus was tested by a malicious, conscious entity? With who or what did Jesus have this conversation?:
Mt 4 (from Aramaic, based on Paul Younan), http://dukhrana.com
I've already answer the other question.
In looking through your posts, the closest to an answer I could find was this:
"As I said i don't believe in Satan, Jesus is using a text from Isaiah which usually refers to the King of Babylon to make a point about the defeat of evil. We know now that 'Heaven' isn't actually, literally 'up there', we've sent spaceships 'up there' and not found Heaven so it is not literally possible for Satan to fall from Heaven to Earth like that Jesus is speaking in parables as usual you need to discern what He is actually saying."
You don't think Satan exists: "As I said i don't believe in Satan."
I think that following a 40-day fast, Jesus was tested by a malicious, conscious entity, aka Satan. I think Jesus had the conversation below with Satan:
Mt 4 (from Aramaic, based on Paul Younan), http://dukhrana.com
1. Then Yeshua was taken by the Rukha d'Qudsha [Spirit of Holiness] to the desert to be tempted by Akelqartza [the Accuser/ Slanderer/ Backbiter]. 2. And he fasted forty days and forty nights, and after which he hungered. 3. And he that was tempting approached and said to him, "If you (are) the Son of Allaha, say to these rocks, 'Become bread.'" 4. And he answered and said,
"(It) is written that,
'barnasha [man] does not live by bread alone,
but by all the words that proceed from the mouth of Allaha.'"
5. Then Akelqartza took him to the holy medintha [city] and raised him upon the edge of the temple 6. and said to him, "If you (are) the Son of Allaha, cast yourself down, for it is written that,
'His angels He commands concerning you,
and upon their hands they will bear you up,
that your foot should not strike upon a rock'."
7. Yeshua said to him,
"Again, it is written that,
'you shall not test MrYa [Master YHWH] Allahak [your Allaha].'"
8. Again Akelqartza took him to a tuora [mountain] that (was) very high and showed him all the kingdoms of the ailma [world] and shubkhen [their glory], 9. and said to him, "All these I (will) give to you if you will fall (and) thesagud [worship] me." 10. Then Yeshua said to him,
"Leave Satana [Adversary], for it is written that,
'thesagud [you shall worship] MrYa Allahak,
and Him alone thepalukh [you shall serve].'"
11. Then Akelqartza left him and behold, malaka [angels] approached and were ministering to him.
You don't think Satan exists. Do you think malicious, conscious entities called 'demons' exist?
Quote from: lastpost on October 06, 2018, 08:58:44 PM
In my view, understanding that we know very little about everything Divine in its immense totality, is an absolute pre-requisite to learning more about God.
Yet, understanding (comprehension) that is appropriate to this stage of being (the tabernacle of the flesh) is given to those who sincerely and humbly ask, seek and knock (Matthew 7:7-8).
Therefore, mysteries remain mysteries for some perhaps, but to others it is given to know:
And the disciples came up and said to him, Why speakest thou to them in parables?
And he answering said to them, Because to you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of the heavens, but to them it is not given...
Matthew 13:10-11
http://www.quotationspage.com/quote/30297.html
I do not know what I may appear to the world; but to myself I seem to have been only like a boy playing on the seashore, and diverting myself in now and then finding a smoother pebble or a prettier shell than ordinary, whilst the great ocean of truth lay all undiscovered before me.
Isaac Newton, From Brewster, Memoirs of Newton (1855)
English mathematician & physicist (1642 - 1727)
Quote from: CST on September 25, 2018, 07:48:41 PMFirst, did Jesus believe He had done things things in the sense we would understand Him having done these things? Because that's a very important question
Most of us don't have access to exorcists, they're pretty thin on the ground these days and people with demons tend to be in no position to seek them themselves. This is my first problem with demons. Real demons can actively seek people out and injure then I have a huge moral problem with this.
Yes, God made the world good but that's a big part of my problem. I don't literally believe in Adam and Eve either but if they existed I doubt that God put it into their hands to so ruin the world the way them seem to have under this reason. God called the world good and it remains so even though we do much bad and evil.
People with demons tend to incline against doing the things described in though verses which makes them hard to for them to fight.
In answer to your question about those four things, yes. Satan doesn't literally exist so didn't literally do those things. when Satan appears in the Bible however he represents something, not always the same thing, and what he represents does exist.
"did Jesus believe He had done things things in the sense we would understand Him having done these things?"
Yes.
Luke 7 (from Aramaic, based on Younan), http://dukhrana.com
18. And his talmida [students/disciples] reported all these things to Yukhanan. 19. And Yukhanan called two of his talmida and he sent them to Yeshua and said, "Are you he that is to come or should we wait for another?" 21. And they came to Yeshua and said to him,
"Yukhanan the baptizer sent us to you and said, '(Are) you he that is to come or should we wait for another?'" 21. And in that same hour, he healed many of their sickness and of plagues and of evil rukha [spirits], and he gave sight to many blind. 22. And Yeshua answered and said to them,
"Go tell Yukhanan everything that you have seen and heard,
that the blind see
and the lame walk
and the lepers are cleansed
and the deaf hear
and the dead arise
and the poor are given hope.
23. And blessed is he who is not offended at me."
"Most of us don't have access to exorcists, they're pretty thin on the ground these days"
Jesus has given every follower of his the authority and power to cast out demons. It's sad that few Christians today imitate Jesus in casting out demons. A low-key approach to expelling demons is the Unbound approach explained by Lozano; Kraft has used a similar approach to help over 2,000 people obtain much freedom.
Charles Kraft, _Two Hours to Freedom: A Simple and Effective Model for Healing and Deliverance_ (2010)
https://www.amazon.com/Two-Hours-Freedom-Effective-Deliverance/dp/0800794982/
Neil Lozano, _Unbound: A Practical Guide to Deliverance_
https://www.amazon.com/Unbound-Practical-Deliverance-Neal-Lozano/dp/0800794125/
do a control-f/ find for: mimic
to get to: Unbound: Expelling the Influence of Demons
http://podbay.fm/show/665532730
"Real demons can actively seek people out and injure then"
Indeed. I knew a young person that was killed, and demons played a large role in that person's violent death.
"Satan... in the Bible... what he represents does exist"
In your view, what are some of the things that the Bible's mentions of Satan represent?
"I don't literally believe in Adam and Eve"
Do you in addition disbelieve Jesus had Adam as an ancestor?
Luke 3 (NKJV)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=luke+3&version=NKJV
23 Now Jesus Himself began His ministry at about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, the son of Heli, 24 the son of Matthat, the son of Levi.... 38 the son of Enosh, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God.
"Adam and Eve... if they existed I doubt that God put it into their hands to so ruin the world the way them seem to have"
God gives people choices. Often people choose poorly, bringing heartache to both themselves and many others.
Deut 30:19
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy+30&version=NKJV
I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you,
that I have set before you
life and death,
blessing and cursing;
therefore choose life,
that both you and your descendants may live;
One time, early, actually, very early in my walk in the faith, I had been reading lots, the New Testament, so I knew the things Paul wrote about “principalities and powers” and I knew how Jesus had said to His followers that he gave them power over serpents and scorpions.. and the swept house.. but no receiving of the Holy Spirit/Presence of God so the house was too empty, and the negative/evil spirit came back w/ comrads.
One day I was at a house where likely I shouldn’t have been. I was with my husband to be. The first thing I noticed was some very disturbing posters hanging on the walls. Then someone in the kitchen broke something glass and things sounded a bit strange. We went with my husband’s friend to see what was going on and here was this guy almost on all fours on the floor among broken glass stirring it around and growling.
I kid you not. Well, I think reflex just sort of took over and I stepped into the room, pointed at him and said “be gone in the name of Jesus” and he kind of half stood up and backed up (quickly) against the wall.. yes kind of flew back against the wall as he had been more or less towards the middle of the (smallish?) room.
:mshock:
His friend called the cops.. I remember not wanting to make eye contact with the guy.. which I’m not sure I should’ve felt that way, as it was fear.. And maybe the guy could’ve used some eye contact. :dontknow: (There had been no more growling, etc.)
Pretty weird huh?
I heard Ray had an experience of demons. Around his early 30's, he and four other men went to see this 75 year old grandmother. Then, all of a sudden, she starts growling and screaming and trying to kill them. So, they quickly sat her in a chair. It took these 5 big strong men just to hold her down while demons where in her.
Are you kidding me? What sort of grandma would be that strong?
Quote from: MusicLover123 on October 07, 2018, 06:45:40 PMIt took these 5 big strong men just to hold her down while demons where in her.
Are you kidding me? What sort of grandma would be that strong?
Mark 5 (based on Younan, from Aramaic)
2. And when he [Jesus] went out from the boat, a man who had an unclean rukha [spirit] in him happened upon him from the cemetery, 3. and he was dwelling in the cemetery. And no man was able to bind him with chains, because whenever he was bound with fetters and with chains, he would break the chains and he would cut the fetters and no man was able to subdue him.
Quote from: marie glen on October 07, 2018, 04:28:24 PMhere was this guy almost on all fours on the floor among broken glass stirring it around and growling
Bobby Jindal, "Beating a Demon: Physical Dimensions of Spiritual Warfare" _New Oxford Review_ (Dec 1994)
http://www.demon-slayer.org/the-bobby-jindal-exorcism-full-text/
In a voice I had never heard before or since, Susan accused me: "Bobby, you cannot even love Susan." Before I even noticed the sound of her voice, I thought it funny that Susan would refer to herself in the third person. .... Knowing that I was doing Susan no good, I quickly retreated to the opposite side of the room. Susan proceeded to denounce every individual in the room, often citing very private and confidential information she could not possibly have known on her own. It was information capable of hurting individuals — attacking people, as she did, by revealing their hidden feelings, fears, and worries.
Quote from: MusicLover123 on October 07, 2018, 06:45:40 PM
I heard Ray had an experience of demons. Around his early 30's, he and four other men went to see this 75 year old grandmother. Then, all of a sudden, she starts growling and screaming and trying to kill them. So, they quickly sat her in a chair. It took these 5 big strong men just to hold her down while demons where in her.
Are you kidding me? What sort of grandma would be that strong?
agreed....i worry bout over talk about demons...well, i dont exactly 'worry' bout it but it kinda 'irritates' me as some ppl see demons everywhere n its a bit silly to me...sure, demons exist but ppl need to keep it in perspective.
Quote from: darryl on October 08, 2018, 02:45:46 AM
Quote from: MusicLover123 on October 07, 2018, 06:45:40 PM
I heard Ray had an experience of demons. Around his early 30's, he and four other men went to see this 75 year old grandmother. Then, all of a sudden, she starts growling and screaming and trying to kill them. So, they quickly sat her in a chair. It took these 5 big strong men just to hold her down while demons where in her.
Are you kidding me? What sort of grandma would be that strong?
agreed....i worry bout over talk about demons...well, i dont exactly 'worry' bout it but it kinda 'irritates' me as some ppl see demons everywhere n its a bit silly to me...sure, demons exist but ppl need to keep it in perspective.
What if they where everywhere? We see through the glass darkly. But wherever they are, God is much more powerful than they. NOTHING can separate us from the Love of God, it isn't even a contest.
Quote from: darryl on October 08, 2018, 02:45:46 AMi worry bout over talk about demons...well, i dont exactly 'worry' bout it but it kinda 'irritates' me as some ppl see demons everywhere n its a bit silly to me...sure, demons exist but ppl need to keep it in perspective.
Have you personally known anyone who sees demons?
Interview: Blake Healy, 17 April 2018
https://spiritdaily.org/blog/angels/interview-blake-healy
....Blake W. Healy, a fellow from Atlanta who, since childhood, as we have related before, has had the gift of seeing into the supernatural — angels and demons. Blake believes, interestingly enough, that many have the same gift but lose it in part by neglecting it; it fades with age. "I have been stunned by how many have come up to me and told me they grew up seeing in the spirit and shut it down," he explains.
Quote from: MusicLover123 on October 08, 2018, 02:59:58 AM
What if they where everywhere? We see through the glass darkly. But wherever they are, God is much more powerful than they. NOTHING can separate us from the Love of God, it isn't even a contest.
Coming early next year:
_Profound Good: See God Through the Lens of His Love_
https://www.amazon.com/Profound-Good-Through-Lens-Love/dp/1629995657/
What you see of God is only part of the story.
From the time Blake Healy was a small child, he has seen angels, demons, and other spiritual things. He sees them with his naked eyes, as vividly and clearly as anything else. ....
After thirty years of seeing in the spirit, one thing has consistently been the most painful for him to see. It is not when he sees someone trapped in demonic oppression. It is not when he sees the gaping wounds of emotional trauma. It is when he sees the goodness of God go unclaimed by His people. In this book Healy takes readers on a journey of rediscovering the goodness of God.
Speaking of goodness, I learned recently that His goodness and Glory are basically the same thing. For example, when Moses asked to see God's Glory, he got the goodness. But, it was the same thing. Same thing when God called everything good and very good.
Just asking, how do people see these spirits? Is it just looking around, or doing some other actions to see?
Quote from: MusicLover123 on October 08, 2018, 05:05:47 AMJust asking, how do people see these spirits? Is it just looking around, or doing some other actions to see?
Healy just looks around. Praying Medic closes his eyes and looks. The spirit man's eyesight usually has to be developed/ trained to see the typically-not-visible. The guy shortly into the youtube video below merely looked around after getting a full-blown gift of seeing in the spirit.
Blake Healy, _The Veil: An Invitation to the Unseen Realm_ (2018)
https://www.amazon.com/Veil-Invitation-Unseen-Realm/dp/1629994901/
Praying Medic, _Seeing in the Spirit Made Simple_ (2015)
https://www.amazon.com/Seeing-Spirit-Made-Simple-Kingdom-ebook/dp/B00VJI0DJK/
If we could see into the Spiritual World, what would we see? - Heavens Catalyst
https://youtu.be/mBt0iynPe0o
Quote from: MusicLover123 on October 08, 2018, 06:31:12 AMWell, I am still unsure what I am seeing when I close my eyes. It started around March of this year, and basically these black thin things are flying around in locations that look familiar rarely, yet not so. Most times I don't even understand what it is.
It is really dark most of the time, with sometimes orange light there too. Still trying to discern of I am actually seeing spirits, and if it is from the devil or not.
Oh, and a couple times, all of a sudden this gate would appear. A black one, and some designs to it.
Even if it was a "gift" I don't even know what the purpose of it would be. In fact, when it started it caused more sleep problems, and being scared at first as I don't know what I am even seeing.
Does that sound what the other people you mentioned see?
I don't recall reading about things along the lines of what you describe.
I think it was Praying Medic who said that often people developing their spiritual sight will early on see eyes glowing in the dark, which he considers the kingdom of darkness's attempting to scare people away from improving their spiritual sight.
"I don't even know what the purpose of it would be"
For one thing, it'd be an additional way God could communicate to you, which would enhance your relationship with Him, and a tool for you to better help people:
Along the lines of a Praying Medic account: 'God, did I hear you right-- you _don't_ want to bring your healing to this person now?-- what's wrong with her?' Close eyes, and see snakes, scorpions, coffins, mummies: she has way too many spiritual problems to be remotely adequately addressed during the medical transport of her.
Near the end of an Unbound session: 'God, what's something you want me to tell him?' Close eyes, and see the guy hacking his way through a forest, leading others through.
Interpretation: God sees you, sir, as a leader who is leading others to safety.
You could also see things that need to be addressed: during a prayer session for someone that came forward for prayer: close eyes, and see a dagger, spear, and fish hook in the person: those items could then be taken out of him.
If you wish to develop your spiritual sight, Praying Medic's book on the topic is good.
Quote from: darryl on October 08, 2018, 02:45:46 AM
Quote from: MusicLover123 on October 07, 2018, 06:45:40 PM
I heard Ray had an experience of demons. Around his early 30's, he and four other men went to see this 75 year old grandmother. Then, all of a sudden, she starts growling and screaming and trying to kill them. So, they quickly sat her in a chair. It took these 5 big strong men just to hold her down while demons where in her.
Are you kidding me? What sort of grandma would be that strong?
agreed....i worry bout over talk about demons...well, i dont exactly 'worry' bout it but it kinda 'irritates' me as some ppl see demons everywhere n its a bit silly to me...sure, demons exist but ppl need to keep it in perspective.
Absolutely :thumbsup: as with seeking 'experiences' and strange extra-biblical things.. myths.. disputings over the law.. etc, etc., but especially seeking miracles and experiences.. -- Jus give me God's Word! -- It's real good to know, however, that negative thoughts and ideas are untruths.. no matter where they come from. God's Word - knowing it, being aware of what it says, and knowing what is true (real) and what is not true.. (sealed on the forehead? a virgin mind/consciousness?) What we believe becomes part of us. And it all bears fruit..
:Peace2: :HeartThrob:
I think MG, that God is still active today. The key thing is discernment. The Holy Spirit is to guide us in all truth, and that may be manifested in different ways. If someone where to have an experience, the thing to do is compare it to God's Word.
If someone does not feel comfortable seeking out experiences from God, then I would not try to force them to do otherwise. The main thing would be, how do you see God? If you think you are unworthy to feel His presence, to hear His voice, then why would you expect otherwise than what you think of Him? If someone thinks that He is not active with people today, then again, why expect otherwise? I think that sort of mentality limits someone from experiencing more of Him.
The hardest part is that there are many false spirits out there, and learning to discern from what is truth and what is not.
Even His Word is Spiritually discerned. If it is not read and compared in Spirit, then it is just ink on a page. I think too, that He may reveal the meaning of these things in different ways, where He leads you by His Spirit.
Quote from: MusicLover123 on October 08, 2018, 05:05:47 AM
Speaking of goodness, I learned recently that His goodness and Glory are basically the same thing. For example, when Moses asked to see God's Glory, he got the goodness. But, it was the same thing. Same thing when God called everything good and very good.
Just asking, how do people see these spirits? Is it just looking around, or doing some other actions to see?
I believe that there are varying degrees to which people "see" and "hear" that which is non-physical.
Some people "see" from childhood, without any "training", such as the woman in this autobiography...
http://www.jhardaker.plus.com/pdf/The%20Ministry%20of%20Angels.pdf
I know one such person well. In my opinion, to see with the innocence provided by an early age before any religious conditioning has taken place, is an aid to avoiding too much doctrinal bias during later recall.
Extract from above book...
I
"The first of my many strange experiences, from which I long ago learned that at
times I see things which to most people are invisible, and hear sounds which to
them are inaudible, occurred when I was twelve years old. With a brother two years
older than myself, I was then living with an aunt in the north of Ireland. My father, a
captain in the British army, was stationed in India.
I awoke one night to find the room filled with light, as though flooded with sunlight,
and pervaded by a delicious odour such as emanates from the most exquisitely
fragrant flowers, but the fragrance was imbued with an exhilarating quality that is
not possessed by any perfume with which I am acquainted.
I heard a rushing sound, like that which might be made by the beating of many
wings, and suddenly there appeared, standing in the middle of the room, two forms.
One was that of a man, the other that of a woman. They were clad in shining white
robes. Around the head of each was a bright halo. The man stretched forth his hand
and said:
"Be not dismayed; blessed shalt thou be",
Then the woman spoke and said:
"Behold the Saviour! And I am His mother".
The face of the man was bearded and his hair was long, falling below the shoulders;
both beard and hair were of a reddish hue. The features closely resembled those of
the traditional portraits of the Saviour. But in most of them the predominant
expression is one of sadness, while the face which beheld expressed joy far beyond
that which I have ever seen depicted on any human face. And yet there was that
about it which proclaimed infinite compassion."
Honest question without researching it; is there any solid scriptural evidence of anyone physically "seeing' demons, satan, etc.?
I do believe the imagination (and mental illnesses) can be powerful things, and things need to considered with much discernment and prayer, as well as not contradict or "unnecessarily" add to scriptural precedent/verification. :2c:
Quote from: DavidFord on October 08, 2018, 03:59:54 AM
Quote from: darryl on October 08, 2018, 02:45:46 AMi worry bout over talk about demons...well, i dont exactly 'worry' bout it but it kinda 'irritates' me as some ppl see demons everywhere n its a bit silly to me...sure, demons exist but ppl need to keep it in perspective.
Have you personally known anyone who sees demons?
Interview: Blake Healy, 17 April 2018
https://spiritdaily.org/blog/angels/interview-blake-healy
....Blake W. Healy, a fellow from Atlanta who, since childhood, as we have related before, has had the gift of seeing into the supernatural — angels and demons. Blake believes, interestingly enough, that many have the same gift but lose it in part by neglecting it; it fades with age. "I have been stunned by how many have come up to me and told me they grew up seeing in the spirit and shut it down," he explains.
#
'...know anyone who sees demons' ?....yes, I know of a Muslim fellow who i come across fairly often who claims to see 'Jinns' ( Koranic devils ) ....as for me, well, such a thing kind of offends my innate sense of rationality....also, it does not seem Biblical.....i.e. did Paul see demons ?...Peter ?....John ?....hmmmm, they don't appear to say they did....if such mighty pillars of the Faith never claimed to have seen demons why would somebody else have that ability....sounds 'fishy' to me....this fellow Healy claimed he saw demons....how do we know he did ?...to what purpose did God allow him to see demons ?...anyway, I'm mainly interested in Universal Reconciliation not peripheral issues like this so I shall leave it there.
Quote from: jabcat on October 09, 2018, 12:22:48 AM
Honest question without researching it; is there any solid scriptural evidence of anyone physically "seeing' demons, satan, etc.?
I do believe the imagination (and mental illnesses) can be powerful things, and things need to considered with much discernment and prayer, as well as not contradict or "unnecessarily" add to scriptural precedent/verification. :2c:
isn't this sidetracking us from discussing the all- important topic of Universal Reconciliation ?...seems like most threads these days aren't even about what this website is supposed to be focussing on, which is UR, and risks causing pointless arguments about peripheral matters...sorry to have to say this but the threads getting away from Universal Reconciliation and into other totally non- related issues is a reason I don't come here as often as I used to.
Yeah, I've been out of town for several days and just catching up. Unless this is tied back into a UR -related point, it indeed could be a rabbit hole. It's tough sometimes, and the "trigger" can be pulled too quickly on whether something is in any way related to UR, so room is given. But again, yeah, it needs to go somewhere productive and able to be fairly readily traceable back to UR or we may be wandering too far off the rails of the site. I'll try to sort this out a little more, given the time, but in the meantime, maybe the membership can take the initiative to move this in a useful direction..
Quote from: darryl on October 09, 2018, 12:35:41 AMisn't this sidetracking us from discussing the all- important topic of Universal Reconciliation ?
Some claim that Satan doesn't exist, and that demons don't exist. If they don't exist, they can't be reconciled to God, and they can't be bothering people, neither on earth nor in Sheol/hades/hell, nor in Gehenna.
Quote from: MusicLover123 on October 08, 2018, 07:22:31 PMThe hardest part is that there are many false spirits out there, and learning to discern from what is truth and what is not.
Even His Word is Spiritually discerned. If it is not read and compared in Spirit, then it is just ink on a page. I think too, that He may reveal the meaning of these things in different ways, where He leads you by His Spirit.
Working with the OT, the Scribes, Pharisees, and Sadducees worked to crucify Jesus.
1 Thess 5:21 (DLNT)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Thessalonians%205%3A21&version=DLNT
but be testing all things.
Be holding-on-to the good
Quote from: jabcat on October 09, 2018, 12:22:48 AMis there any solid scriptural evidence of anyone physically "seeing' demons, satan, etc.?
Satan is said to be a fallen angel. In the Bible, people are reported to have seen angels, e.g. Gabriel. Paul detected the presence of a demon in a future-predicting girl, and demons and Satan communicated to Jesus on several occasions. The ill effects of demons' adverse influence on several people was observed during Jesus' ministry. Peter's friends once thought that not Peter, but Peter's angel was standing outside the door.
Quote from: jabcat on October 09, 2018, 12:22:48 AM
Honest question without researching it; is there any solid scriptural evidence of anyone physically "seeing' demons, satan, etc.?
I do believe the imagination (and mental illnesses) can be powerful things, and things need to considered with much discernment and prayer, as well as not contradict or "unnecessarily" add to scriptural precedent/verification. :2c:
Still not sure of what I believe the nature of demons/Satan to be but yeah biblically speaking I'd say Jesus saw something unless it's metaphor:
Luke 10:18
Jesus answered them, "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.
Matthew 4
8 Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor. 9 "All this I will give you," he said, "if you will bow down and worship me."
10 Jesus said to him, "Away from me, Satan! For it is written: 'Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.'
It's peripheral but i think discussing Satan/demons is related to UR and I often wonder of these things and how they fit into UR and have questions like:
1) How does free will and accountability fit in if demons are allowed to influence us in unseen ways?
2) Why do we wrestle with sin and imperfection? Is it only our carnality we are battling?
3) Are demons and Satan beings and if so will they be reconciled to God in the UR paradigm?
4) if there is a temporary place of purification/teaching/testing after this life how does it work?
5) How do we overcome what we need to to become closer to God?
6) If they are not beings what are they and what is the Bible talking about?
7) Is the spirit realm interacting with us today (aka angels and demons) and if so what are the implications of this?
Quote from: darryl on October 09, 2018, 12:29:41 AM'...know anyone who sees demons' ?....yes, I know of a Muslim fellow who i come across fairly often who claims to see 'Jinns' ( Koranic devils ) ....as for me, well, such a thing kind of offends my innate sense of rationality....also, it does not seem Biblical.....i.e. did Paul see demons ?...Peter ?....John ?....hmmmm, they don't appear to say they did....if such mighty pillars of the Faith never claimed to have seen demons why would somebody else have that ability....sounds 'fishy' to me....this fellow Healy claimed he saw demons....how do we know he did ?...to what purpose did God allow him to see demons ?
It's often easier to fight something you can see, compared with fighting an invisible opponent. During ministry sessions, it's apparently easier to extract knives, spears, and meat hooks from people when you can see those implements.
"such a thing kind of offends my innate sense of rationality"
There are many things in the Bible that offend many peoples' "innate sense of rationality," e.g. the notion that God would make a lake of fire, and throw people He made into it.
"if such mighty pillars of the Faith never claimed to have seen demons why would somebody else have that ability"
Jesus is the biggest pillar of the faith around. And yet he said this:
John 14:12 (YLT)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=john+14%3A12&version=DLNT;YLT;KJV
`Verily, verily, I say to you,
he who is believing in me,
the works that I do --
that one also shall do,
and greater than these he shall do,
because I go on to my Father;
Quote from: GodIsLove on October 09, 2018, 02:12:01 AM
7) Is the spirit realm interacting with us today (aka angels and demons) and if so what are the implications of this?
As much as I believe there are fallen angels, and faithful angels, I seldom think about this! I did one day think of a phrase one day from a novel.. I was running around in kind of a bad mood, and the phrase 'in the grip of a fowl spirit" came to mind, which kind of stopped me up short.. (wait.. what?) I think the deviousness of the rebel angels / servants of God!
proves UR.
How? I'm not sure. :gsmile: But I know it's true. ...Because there's only two paths? Full union w/ God. Or not. One is life and one is death. If the whole Pandora box of there being thinking, reasoning creatures, is opened, where does it lead?
What's the other option?
If the law of the universe is to be do as thy will.. Well, right off, it seems kind of natural that woman would spend some time being "ruled by man".. why? because man was physically stronger.. and was flawed..
And if you have freedom to choose.. some just may choose to mistreat and even oppress others.. it's an abyss.. That all in heaven and earth have to learn to deeply abhor..? To know that we know, that we know, that the wrong way only leads to self destruction (apocalypse) and horrors unimaginable.. as we shall all find out on Judgment 'Day'? (Of review?)
And I think His engineering of things so that seditious angels are involved, is His works to speed things along. And fully teach, convince “all in heaven and earth”..
:gsmile: :2c:
And "just as in Adam all die, even so, in Jesus shall all live.." The devils thrown to the LOF.. 2nd death.. I don't think any humans will go there (there being 2 ages in between His return and the lof) only as the baptism of fire after salvation and every day always. But for the angels in darkness.. I think maybe there is that crucible of refining for aion.. or olam.. but wait, it has to be before God makes all things new.. yes?
Quote from: DavidFord on October 06, 2018, 07:58:40 PM
Quote from: CST on September 26, 2018, 12:29:28 PMDo you believe Satan is an actual dragon? What is an actual dragon doing in heaven, there are none on Earth. The dragon is symbolic of something so is Satan. It doesn't mean Satan is either a literal dragon or anything you might think he is.
Satan isn't "an actual dragon," nor is he an actual lion, nor an actual snake. But he can drastically change appearance, and can act in a dragon-like, lion-like, and snake-like manner.
"Why would Jesus need to distribute drugs when the power of God worked perfectly well?"
Jesus had to make 2 attempts to get a blind man seeing properly. Jesus struggled a little in casting the demons out of the demon-oppressed guy that lived in the cemetary.
"The Bible.... is, however, concerned with our spiritual welfare and some equip us for maintaining is sufficiently. A lack of proper information on demons is a pretty big lack to me."
Many people are unnecessarily suffering from demons that promote disease and mayhem. Agreed, "a lack of proper information on demons"-- and how to dislodge them-- "is a pretty big lack" among far too many people.
"If the fallen angels are in Tartarus, they are somewhere different from the dead in Sheol/Hades aren't they? So I would expect some difference in the state they are in. But obviously your Aramaic doesn't say that, so you don't. Another reason to suspect that the Bible perhaps should properly be in Greek because the Aramaic appears to have no equivalent to 'Tartarus'"
Yes, "if the fallen angels are in Tartarus, they are somewhere different from the dead in Sheol/Hades." Do you think Tartarus exists?
QuoteBut I don't believe in UR for demons because demons are always presented as being utterly evil and cannot be redeemed. It is their nature to be evil and they take absolute pleasure from causing harm to humans and only from causing pain to humans. It is what they exist for and I have a major moral problem with this.
"demons are always presented as being utterly evil"
Was there ever any point at which the beings now called demons _weren't_ "utterly evil"?
Really, show me because I've never seen a dragon, I was of the impression they don't exist in reality. And in the world the only place that I've actually seen lions and snakes is a zoo and I doubt any of them were Satan. Jesus is also describe as both a lion and a lamb but the Gospels don't record Him taking the form of either creature, why should i believe Satan can when the appearance you argue for in the Gospel doesn't seem to convey any form of Satan.
Satan is described as a dragon symbolically, I can't see why God would convey on Satan the power to turn into a mythical monster (and Satan can't have any powers not conveyed to him by God) just to aid him in his rebellion. Nor can I see any reason to convey that power when there are better ones He could convey. Satan turning into a dragon in Heaven isn't going to fool anyone which is Satan's primary weapon. It makes no sense for Satan to be a dragon in Heaven, in fact it makes the kingdom of God sound more fallen than the Earth which I think is a massive problem.
The only person that comes of badly when Jesus struggles to heal is Jesus since God fails at nothing. So it's best you not mention that. Especially if the drugs actually turned out to work better.
Yes, my point was is that if the Bible was clearer on demons we might have less reason to doubt they exist and therefore be less likely to abandon our fight against them. But we have abandoned our fight which suggests to me that given what Jesus said about them they'll have possessed the whole world by now. If they actually existed.
Peter's description of Tartarus, as I understand seems to recall a pseudepigraphal work we currently don't recognise so we should probably be careful how we read it. And, of course I don't think Tartarus exists. It's the place in Greek mythology which all the bad gods went these were the gods before the gods of Olympus and they were involved in a lot of the universes creation but then there was a battle and the got overthrown and ended up receiving special punishments in Tartarus. Believing in Tartarus means believing in the gods whose stories are connected to it. I can still believe in what it represents however.
In theory their should be a time when demons were not utterly evil but the Bible doesn't support this which I why I think it doesn't support the existence of demons.
Quote from: CST on October 09, 2018, 02:41:46 PM
Really, show me because I've never seen a dragon, I was of the impression they don't exist in reality.
I've seen a video about one:
Komodo Dragon - Epic Wildlife
https://youtu.be/WCjNQqRdv7U
I've never seen a leviathan, but I accept that they existed. And its description sounds dragon-like to me:
Job 41 (KJV)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Job+41&version=KJV
1 Canst thou draw out leviathan with an hook? or his tongue with a cord which thou lettest down?
2 Canst thou put an hook into his nose? or bore his jaw through with a thorn?
3 Will he make many supplications unto thee? will he speak soft words unto thee?
4 Will he make a covenant with thee? wilt thou take him for a servant for ever?
5 Wilt thou play with him as with a bird? or wilt thou bind him for thy maidens?
6 Shall the companions make a banquet of him? shall they part him among the merchants?
7 Canst thou fill his skin with barbed irons? or his head with fish spears?
8 Lay thine hand upon him, remember the battle, do no more.
9 Behold, the hope of him is in vain: shall not one be cast down even at the sight of him?
10 None is so fierce that dare stir him up: who then is able to stand before me?
11 Who hath prevented me, that I should repay him? whatsoever is under the whole heaven is mine.
12 I will not conceal his parts, nor his power, nor his comely proportion.
13 Who can discover the face of his garment? or who can come to him with his double bridle?
14 Who can open the doors of his face? his teeth are terrible round about.
15 His scales are his pride, shut up together as with a close seal.
16 One is so near to another, that no air can come between them.
17 They are joined one to another, they stick together, that they cannot be sundered.
18 By his neesings a light doth shine, and his eyes are like the eyelids of the morning.
19 Out of his mouth go burning lamps, and sparks of fire leap out.
20 Out of his nostrils goeth smoke, as out of a seething pot or caldron.
21 His breath kindleth coals, and a flame goeth out of his mouth.
22 In his neck remaineth strength, and sorrow is turned into joy before him.
23 The flakes of his flesh are joined together: they are firm in themselves; they cannot be moved.
24 His heart is as firm as a stone; yea, as hard as a piece of the nether millstone.
25 When he raiseth up himself, the mighty are afraid: by reason of breakings they purify themselves.
26 The sword of him that layeth at him cannot hold: the spear, the dart, nor the habergeon.
27 He esteemeth iron as straw, and brass as rotten wood.
28 The arrow cannot make him flee: slingstones are turned with him into stubble.
29 Darts are counted as stubble: he laugheth at the shaking of a spear.
30 Sharp stones are under him: he spreadeth sharp pointed things upon the mire.
31 He maketh the deep to boil like a pot: he maketh the sea like a pot of ointment.
32 He maketh a path to shine after him; one would think the deep to be hoary.
33 Upon earth there is not his like, who is made without fear.
34 He beholdeth all high things: he is a king over all the children of pride.
Psalm 74:13-14 (KJV)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm+74&version=KJV
Thou didst divide the sea by thy strength:
thou brakest the heads of the dragons in the waters.
Thou brakest the heads of leviathan in pieces,
and gavest him to be meat to the people inhabiting the wilderness.
Isaiah 26:21-27:1 (KJV)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah+26&version=KJV
For, behold, the Lord cometh out of his place
to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity:
the earth also shall disclose her blood,
and shall no more cover her slain.
In that day the Lord with his sore and great and strong sword
shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent,
even leviathan that crooked serpent;
and he shall slay the dragon that is in the sea.
"Especially if the drugs actually turned out to work better"
Are you aware of any drugs that can cure blindness?
"The only person that comes of badly when Jesus struggles to heal is Jesus since God fails at nothing"
Jesus had to make 2 attempts to get a blind man seeing properly, and Jesus struggled a little in casting the demons out of the demon-oppressed guy that lived in the cemetary:
Mark 8 (from Aramaic, based on Younan)
22. And he came to Beth-Saida and they brought a blind man to him and were entreating him to touch him. 23. And he took the hand of the blind man and led him outside of the village. And he spat on his eyes and placed his hands (on him) and asked him what he saw. 24. He looked and said, "I see the sons of men resembling trees that are walking." 25. He again placed his hand upon his eyes. And he was restored and was seeing everything clearly.
Lk 8
26. And they journeyed and came to the land of the Gadarenes which is on the other side opposite of Galeela. 27. And when he went out onto land, a certain man from the medintha [city] caught up to him in whom had been a deewa [demon] for a long time. And he would not wear clothing and he would not dwell in a house, but in the cemetery. 28. And when he saw Yeshua, he cried out and fell down before him and in a loud voice said, "What have we to do with each other, Yeshua, the Son of the Most High Allaha? I beseech you, do not torment me." 29. For Yeshua was commanding to him-- to the unclean rukha [spirit]-- to go out from the man. For much time had passed since he was held captive by him. And he was bound with chains and he was restrained with bonds, but he would break his bonds and would be driven by the shada [demons] into the wilderness. 30. And Yeshua asked him,
"What is your name?"
He said to him, "Legion," because many deewa [demons] had entered into him. 31. And they were beseeching him that he would not command them to go to the abyss. 32. And there was there a herd of numerous swine that was feeding on the tuora [mountain], and they were beseeching him to permit them to enter into the swine. And he permitted them. 33. And the shada went out from the man and entered in the swine. And that whole herd rushed to a cliff and fell into the lake and they drowned. 34. And when the herders saw what happened, they fled and reported it in the medintha and in the villages. 35. And men came out to see what happened, and they came to Yeshua and found that man shadohy [whose shada] had departed, dressed and sober and sitting at the feet of Yeshua, and they were afraid. 36. And those who had seen (it) reported to them how he healed that possessed man.
"And Yeshua asked him, 'What is your name?'
Knowing a demon's name can assist in expelling it.
Praying Medic, _Divine Healing Made Simple_ (2013), 266pp.,173-4:
Steve Harmon shared his personal experiences on his Facebook page and allowed me to publish them here:
There was a time when I didn't feel it was necessary to know the name of the demon, until one night. It was a cold and rainy night and we were on our way to pray for a friend, driving on the freeway. Suddenly my girl friend started to feel dizzy and nauseous. Then her legs started hurting so badly that they felt like they were being crushed. Then her head started hurting. I knew this was a demonic attack. I put my hand on her and commanded healing. She could feel power and heat come off my hand but the demon would override it, making it ineffective. Her vision started to go black and white and she was about to pass out. I prayed for ten minutes and nothing worked, not even a little. I told her to start worshiping. That didn't work. I told her to speak her identity in Christ over herself. That didn't work. I told her to plead the blood Christ over herself. That didn't work. I put my hand on her stomach and released joy on her. She felt joy come off my hand but the demon literally suppressed it.
This went on for 25 minutes and nothing was working. I felt completely powerless. I told infirmity and trauma to go and nothing worked. I said, "Demon leave," several times and there was no progress at all. Through this whole time, I'm asking God for help, but I heard nothing. I thought to myself, "Jesus calmed the storm by living from rest." So, I calmed down. Once I was at rest, I put my hand on her and spoke peace into her. She felt peace come off my hand, but the demon suppressed it. I didn't know what to do. I did everything that I had ever been taught through all my training in deliverance. I parked the car to the side of the road and sat there. All of sudden, I hear the Lord speak to me and say, "It is witchcraft and it was put on her." Immediately I turned and said, "Witchcraft — come out!" Instantly, she felt something move in her body. The demon left within 20 seconds and she was totally healed. ....
"Especially if the drugs actually turned out to work better"
Perhaps psychiactric drugs failed to help Jersey.
Re: M. Scott Peck, _Glimpses of the Devil: A Psychiatrist's Personal Accounts of Possession_ (2009)
https://www.amazon.com/Glimpses-Devil-Psychiatrists-Personal-Possession/dp/1439167265
Until the day Dr. Peck first met the young woman called Jersey, he did not believe in the devil. In fact, as a mature, highly experienced psychiatrist, he expected that this case would resolve his ongoing effort to prove to himself, as scientifically as possible, that there were absolutely no grounds for such beliefs. Yet what he discovered could not be explained away simply as madness or by any standard clinical diagnosis. Through a series of unanticipated events, Dr. Peck found himself thrust into the role of exorcist, and his desire to treat and help Jersey led him down a path of blurred boundaries between science and religion. Once there, he came face-to-face with deeply entrenched evil and ultimately witnessed the overwhelming healing power of love.
"if the Bible was clearer on demons we might have less reason to doubt they exist and therefore be less likely to abandon our fight against them. But we have abandoned our fight which suggests to me that given what Jesus said about them they'll have possessed the whole world by now. If they actually existed"
"given what Jesus said about them"
What are 2 remarks by Jesus you're thinking of?
Has the Arizona Deliverance Center abandoned its fight against demons?
https://www.hardcorechristianity.com/about-us/
Our Mission
Acts 26:18/Mark 7:27: "To open the eyes of Christians to turn them from the deception of seducing spirits to the real truth of Christianity. To turn them from the lies of the devil to the Truth of God, that they might understand that evil spirits have over-run the churches in North America & that Christians can be infected (not possessed) with spirits and need deliverance & that they can receive forgiveness of sins, physical healing & deliverance from demonic disease & mental illness & that they can receive an inheritance among those that are sanctified by Faith in Christ & understand that the Children's Bread of deliverance is for all saints."
Do you think those at Heart of the Father Ministries have abandoned their fight against demons?
https://www.heartofthefather.com/about/the-five-keys/
Every child of God carries the authority of the Father in the name of Jesus. In Luke 1:71, we learn that in Christ, you have "salvation from our enemies and from the hand of all who hate us." You do have enemies that have sought to rob you of your freedom. In the authority of Jesus, you can take our stand against them through repentance, forgiveness, and renunciation. Then the leader will declare victory by saying, "In the name of Jesus Christ, I command every spirit that (your name) has renounced to leave... right now." The command is an expression of faith that the enemy's power has been broken in our lives.
"the Bible... doesn't support the existence of demons"
Do you think the Bible supports the existence of unclean spirits?
23 Bible results for "unclean spirit."
https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=unclean+spirit&qs_version=KJV
"I can still believe in what it represents however"
What do you think the Tartarus mentioned here represents?:
2 Peter 2:4 (Young's Literal Translation)
https://biblehub.com/ylt/2_peter/2.htm
For if God messengers who sinned did not spare, but with chains of thick gloom, having cast [them] down to Tartarus, did deliver [them] to judgment, having been reserved,
Quote from: marie glen on October 06, 2018, 08:03:57 PM
"tartarus" I believe began as simply deepest darkness (state of) but then evolved into Greek myth.. Just a theory, I have not researched it. Same with hades, meant hidden/gone/not seen.. But became Greek myth for a level of an afterlife..
Deepest darkness, locked into because they cannot now change their course toward perfection, what with being imperfect, and locked into darkness, so chained and reserved in that state for judgment ('day').. imo. :Peace2:
Quote
Was there ever any point at which the beings now called demons _weren't_ "utterly evil"?
If always evil, where did the angels "fall" from? As we know, it takes all verses..
If the adversary is merely the carnal character within us all.. Why all the metaphor to describe something already openly described?
If there's no belief in rebel angels? Is there belief in angels? They are fully programmed, but man was not? If so, would there be rationality?
Are angels beings? with thought and reaction? Or are they "winds" only? Thoughts? And if so, from whence came evil thoughts? From what source? This to me presents a big problem.
Remedied by the idea of thinking ability including the ability of choice. Doesn't it? Does rationality, naturally, include within it (sooner or later /ultimately) the ability to make choices?
If no.. why or how not?
So say you create a perfect universe. Now what?? Flowers, trees, plants.. animals.. no dog eat dog..
Can you, or how can you, create thinking, reasoning, learning beings?
And keep everything perfect? Can it be done? How can it be done, and still have rational, thinking, pondering, creative beings, with true power of thought? Will very limited power of thought work? Could that be perfect? "Good"? ...Satisfying to the creator?
:Peace2: :2c:
I don't believe in Satan as a conscious being that invisibly walks the planet and tempts us to sin at best I believe that there might be some more abstract agency in nature that provokes are carnal mind and thus us to sin, that hides from us the weaknesses in the things that tempt us, stop us recognise bad ideas so not to act on that. As I said I don't believe in Satan as a fallen angel I do believe the word represents something but only a conscious entity needs to be saved.
You can argue that if Satan is merely the carnal character, which is plainly described, why do we need all the metaphor? But the response to that is that given that the carnal character is described so clearly why is it not sufficient to explain our sin?
The Bible is clear, we are in slavery to the carnal mind and cannot be rescued from it's siren song unless God blocks our ears. What exactly does Satan add to the equation?
I'm not sure what I believe about angels, I'm more inclined to believe in them than Satan and demons but at that point I must conclude I have no idea what they are. The word means 'messenger' but beyond that I don't know what the corresponds to because the Bible doesn't tell me.
And, yes, the ability to make choices for good or evil is highly important in a rational world but to me Satan threatens that choice he doesn't enable it. I am perfectly capable of having ideas for good or ill and weighing them up in my mind and coming to what I think is the correct decision of whether to act on the idea (because it is good) or abandon it (because it is evil) obviously I am often wrong in my conclusion.
Adding Satan into the equation means introducing ideas that are not my own, giving an unreasonably strong argument or set of arguments for the evil idea. Maybe an angel will argue for the good (though the Bible never supports this) idea as in numerous comedies. But they're comedies and by their nature make the idea ridiculous. If I can't come to the right or wrong conclusion by myself what have I learned? What do I gain? My own reason and logic, oh so important and what you are trying to defend in this equation, is rendered all but useless.
Quote from: lastpost on October 06, 2018, 08:58:44 PM
QuoteSome mysteries are meant to remain mysteries, which is why Jesus said
This is why I speak to them in parables: "Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand." Mt 13;10
In my view, understanding that we know very little about everything Divine in its immense totality, is an absolute pre-requisite to learning more about God.
Yet, understanding (comprehension) that is appropriate to this stage of being (the tabernacle of the flesh) is given to those who sincerely and humbly ask, seek and knock (Matthew 7:7-8).
Therefore, mysteries remain mysteries for some perhaps, but to others it is given to know:
And the disciples came up and said to him, Why speakest thou to them in parables?
And he answering said to them, Because to you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of the heavens, but to them it is not given...
Matthew 13:10-11
Indeed, and yet everyone can read the Bible where the 'mysteries' are supposedly clearly explained.
I read recently, and thus relearned that in theological usage 'mystery' does not mean something puzzling or difficult to get your head around as in common usage. Rather it means something that can only be known if God reveals it. The mysteries simply refer to whatever God has or hasn't revealed.
Quote from: DavidFord on October 06, 2018, 11:12:15 PM
Quote from: CST on September 26, 2018, 08:12:12 PMJesus teaches that: "...every one who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart." (Matthew 5:28) This is some sort of hyperbole, surely?
Maybe, and maybe not. Perhaps it's the case that people can influence and do things in the spiritual world with their imaginations. Perhaps a married guy imagining having sex with someone not his wife results in him actually having sex with something not his wife-- not in the physical realm, but in the spiritual realm. Healy saw a young guy's thoughts of mentally stripping a female singer.
Blake Healy, _The Veil: An Invitation to the Unseen Realm_
https://www.amazon.com/Veil-Invitation-Unseen-Realm/dp/1629994901/
Hmm, I've thought about that before. Under that line of reasoning human imagination can create both angels and demons that didn't formally exist. This is the only proposition I'm even prepared to consider for the existence of demons: that belief in demons creates demons. But, obviously, that may be the most dangerous idea ever proposed.
Quote from: DavidFord on October 06, 2018, 11:33:33 PM
Quote from: CST on October 06, 2018, 02:02:21 PM
Quote from: DavidFord on October 06, 2018, 01:01:59 AM
Do you agree with me that following a 40-day fast, Jesus was tested by a malicious, conscious entity? With who or what did Jesus have this conversation?:
Mt 4 (from Aramaic, based on Paul Younan), http://dukhrana.com
I've already answer the other question.
In looking through your posts, the closest to an answer I could find was this:
"As I said i don't believe in Satan, Jesus is using a text from Isaiah which usually refers to the King of Babylon to make a point about the defeat of evil. We know now that 'Heaven' isn't actually, literally 'up there', we've sent spaceships 'up there' and not found Heaven so it is not literally possible for Satan to fall from Heaven to Earth like that Jesus is speaking in parables as usual you need to discern what He is actually saying."
You don't think Satan exists: "As I said i don't believe in Satan."
I think that following a 40-day fast, Jesus was tested by a malicious, conscious entity, aka Satan. I think Jesus had the conversation below with Satan:
Mt 4 (from Aramaic, based on Paul Younan), http://dukhrana.com
1. Then Yeshua was taken by the Rukha d'Qudsha [Spirit of Holiness] to the desert to be tempted by Akelqartza [the Accuser/ Slanderer/ Backbiter]. 2. And he fasted forty days and forty nights, and after which he hungered. 3. And he that was tempting approached and said to him, "If you (are) the Son of Allaha, say to these rocks, 'Become bread.'" 4. And he answered and said,
"(It) is written that,
'barnasha [man] does not live by bread alone,
but by all the words that proceed from the mouth of Allaha.'"
5. Then Akelqartza took him to the holy medintha [city] and raised him upon the edge of the temple 6. and said to him, "If you (are) the Son of Allaha, cast yourself down, for it is written that,
'His angels He commands concerning you,
and upon their hands they will bear you up,
that your foot should not strike upon a rock'."
7. Yeshua said to him,
"Again, it is written that,
'you shall not test MrYa [Master YHWH] Allahak [your Allaha].'"
8. Again Akelqartza took him to a tuora [mountain] that (was) very high and showed him all the kingdoms of the ailma [world] and shubkhen [their glory], 9. and said to him, "All these I (will) give to you if you will fall (and) thesagud [worship] me." 10. Then Yeshua said to him,
"Leave Satana [Adversary], for it is written that,
'thesagud [you shall worship] MrYa Allahak,
and Him alone thepalukh [you shall serve].'"
11. Then Akelqartza left him and behold, malaka [angels] approached and were ministering to him.
You don't think Satan exists. Do you think malicious, conscious entities called 'demons' exist?
I've already answered that question too. I thought it was the root of this discussion. Of course if you didn't flood the threads with post after post of various translations and definitions it would be easier to find what I put where.
Quote from: DavidFord on October 07, 2018, 01:09:29 AM
Quote from: CST on September 25, 2018, 07:48:41 PMFirst, did Jesus believe He had done things things in the sense we would understand Him having done these things? Because that's a very important question
Most of us don't have access to exorcists, they're pretty thin on the ground these days and people with demons tend to be in no position to seek them themselves. This is my first problem with demons. Real demons can actively seek people out and injure then I have a huge moral problem with this.
Yes, God made the world good but that's a big part of my problem. I don't literally believe in Adam and Eve either but if they existed I doubt that God put it into their hands to so ruin the world the way them seem to have under this reason. God called the world good and it remains so even though we do much bad and evil.
People with demons tend to incline against doing the things described in though verses which makes them hard to for them to fight.
In answer to your question about those four things, yes. Satan doesn't literally exist so didn't literally do those things. when Satan appears in the Bible however he represents something, not always the same thing, and what he represents does exist.
"did Jesus believe He had done things things in the sense we would understand Him having done these things?"
Yes.
Luke 7 (from Aramaic, based on Younan), http://dukhrana.com
18. And his talmida [students/disciples] reported all these things to Yukhanan. 19. And Yukhanan called two of his talmida and he sent them to Yeshua and said, "Are you he that is to come or should we wait for another?" 21. And they came to Yeshua and said to him,
"Yukhanan the baptizer sent us to you and said, '(Are) you he that is to come or should we wait for another?'" 21. And in that same hour, he healed many of their sickness and of plagues and of evil rukha [spirits], and he gave sight to many blind. 22. And Yeshua answered and said to them,
"Go tell Yukhanan everything that you have seen and heard,
that the blind see
and the lame walk
and the lepers are cleansed
and the deaf hear
and the dead arise
and the poor are given hope.
23. And blessed is he who is not offended at me."
"Most of us don't have access to exorcists, they're pretty thin on the ground these days"
Jesus has given every follower of his the authority and power to cast out demons. It's sad that few Christians today imitate Jesus in casting out demons. A low-key approach to expelling demons is the Unbound approach explained by Lozano; Kraft has used a similar approach to help over 2,000 people obtain much freedom.
Charles Kraft, _Two Hours to Freedom: A Simple and Effective Model for Healing and Deliverance_ (2010)
https://www.amazon.com/Two-Hours-Freedom-Effective-Deliverance/dp/0800794982/
Neil Lozano, _Unbound: A Practical Guide to Deliverance_
https://www.amazon.com/Unbound-Practical-Deliverance-Neal-Lozano/dp/0800794125/
do a control-f/ find for: mimic
to get to: Unbound: Expelling the Influence of Demons
http://podbay.fm/show/665532730
"Real demons can actively seek people out and injure then"
Indeed. I knew a young person that was killed, and demons played a large role in that person's violent death.
"Satan... in the Bible... what he represents does exist"
In your view, what are some of the things that the Bible's mentions of Satan represent?
"I don't literally believe in Adam and Eve"
Do you in addition disbelieve Jesus had Adam as an ancestor?
Luke 3 (NKJV)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=luke+3&version=NKJV
23 Now Jesus Himself began His ministry at about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, the son of Heli, 24 the son of Matthat, the son of Levi.... 38 the son of Enosh, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God.
"Adam and Eve... if they existed I doubt that God put it into their hands to so ruin the world the way them seem to have"
God gives people choices. Often people choose poorly, bringing heartache to both themselves and many others.
Deut 30:19
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy+30&version=NKJV
I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you,
that I have set before you
life and death,
blessing and cursing;
therefore choose life,
that both you and your descendants may live;
Haven't we gone over much of this? Your repetitive posting is making this discussion very hard to follow.
Quote from: MusicLover123 on October 08, 2018, 05:05:47 AM
Speaking of goodness, I learned recently that His goodness and Glory are basically the same thing. For example, when Moses asked to see God's Glory, he got the goodness. But, it was the same thing. Same thing when God called everything good and very good.
Just asking, how do people see these spirits? Is it just looking around, or doing some other actions to see?
For future reference God is self-entailing: all of God's qualities are the same thing.
Quote from: marie glen on October 08, 2018, 06:07:17 PM
Quote from: darryl on October 08, 2018, 02:45:46 AM
Quote from: MusicLover123 on October 07, 2018, 06:45:40 PM
I heard Ray had an experience of demons. Around his early 30's, he and four other men went to see this 75 year old grandmother. Then, all of a sudden, she starts growling and screaming and trying to kill them. So, they quickly sat her in a chair. It took these 5 big strong men just to hold her down while demons where in her.
Are you kidding me? What sort of grandma would be that strong?
agreed....i worry bout over talk about demons...well, i dont exactly 'worry' bout it but it kinda 'irritates' me as some ppl see demons everywhere n its a bit silly to me...sure, demons exist but ppl need to keep it in perspective.
Absolutely :thumbsup: as with seeking 'experiences' and strange extra-biblical things.. myths.. disputings over the law.. etc, etc., but especially seeking miracles and experiences.. -- Jus give me God's Word! -- It's real good to know, however, that negative thoughts and ideas are untruths.. no matter where they come from. God's Word - knowing it, being aware of what it says, and knowing what is true (real) and what is not true.. (sealed on the forehead? a virgin mind/consciousness?) What we believe becomes part of us. And it all bears fruit..
:Peace2: :HeartThrob:
Really? Because I think belief in demons is a rather negative idea.
Quote from: GodIsLove on October 09, 2018, 02:12:01 AM
It's peripheral but i think discussing Satan/demons is related to UR and I often wonder of these things and how they fit into UR and have questions like:
1) How does free will and accountability fit in if demons are allowed to influence us in unseen ways?
2) Why do we wrestle with sin and imperfection? Is it only our carnality we are battling?
3) Are demons and Satan beings and if so will they be reconciled to God in the UR paradigm?
4) if there is a temporary place of purification/teaching/testing after this life how does it work?
5) How do we overcome what we need to to become closer to God?
6) If they are not beings what are they and what is the Bible talking about?
7) Is the spirit realm interacting with us today (aka angels and demons) and if so what are the implications of this?
Quite so, it's questions like these that make me doubt the existence of demons. Demons seem to block the access of the possessed to God. When I believed in the tradition view of Hell I often wondered what happened if someone died while still possessed by a demon. How did their being possessed after their standing before God when judged. Since the effect didn't sound promising I started to doubt demons exist. I still do, I don't see unfair for God to judge people for their offences against others which they chose to commit. However offences they committed that they were compelled or tricked into committing by Satan or demons. To me UR has to pertain to the actual process of being saved and whatever responsibility we have in that process. It can't simply be 'Don't worry everyone, there's a light even at the end of the Hell tunnel.' ET proponents rightly criticise that sort of thinking that they imagine we have.
the answers are in the scriptures..the Holy city camp surrounded[under seige/cut off living water/food sustenance/true wordof GOd]
also known as 'shroud" covering the people..or 'like a cloudcome up over the land"
also,Jesus stated he would 'seperate'the people from the mingled seed..and appear again unto us 'seperate' from sin.
God teaches by positive andnegative examples ..our whole TOKOGAE expierence inthis temporal realm issuch.
Tol of freegift of righteousness and eternal life through Christis thepeace we are led forth to from this warring of good and evil..or
man's sore travail. make the tree either good or evil.[tokogae].unlawful mixing of good/evil in man[known as sin in flesh]
God is good....and He shall lead all men to TOL through Jesus Christ.Let us make man in our image and likeness
=immortal/incorruptible. :2c:
I think it's the ability to make choices.. an abyss of possibility.. so what, God would teach all in heaven at a different time than teaching all on Earth? Jesus is the exact representation of His person. "have the ppl sit down in groups of fifty or one hundred.."
Negatives like.. I don't like that person.. Gee is that cancer?... or whatever.. ideas.. can be (peacefully) ordered away in the name of Jesus, in fact I'd advise it.... resist the adversary and he will flee from you.. (whether a spirit or a thought) every good thing comes from above..
Quote
"The answer is in the scriptures.."
:thumbsup: bottom line.. always :banana: :cloud9:
Is it fair to say that the "answers are in the Scriptures" but revealed by the Spirit?
The Scriptures meaning are only revealed to a Spiritually minded person. Otherwise it is just ink on a page, and makes no sense to
the carnally minded.
of course,2 Cor 3;13-17 :2c:each in their order..all loved by God...and brought into it at His timeing. No-one
can boast..anything we have in the way of understanding..was given. To build upthe household of faith..not tear down. We can't
disenfranchise any man of his birthright in Christ or his free gift,orofthe Love ofHis Father[prodigal or not]
progressive..prospering in the spirit...the light growing brighter...........
Maythe Lord cause His face to shine uponyou. Those eyes of fire are jealous for all our sakes...He desires to burn the chaff andtares away
in our understanding,that weknow the intensity of His and the Father's love for all of us.
Zech 1;14,8;2,3
Quote from: MusicLover123 on October 10, 2018, 03:56:39 PM
Is it fair to say that the "answers are in the Scriptures" but revealed by the Spirit?
The Scriptures meaning are only revealed to a Spiritually minded person. Otherwise it is just ink on a page, and makes no sense to
the carnally minded.
Amen, :iagree: totally.. Though I think there can be
some understanding.. but then again, that too is the light via His Spirit (Which I think is His Presence) his giving and guiding..
As Sister Sheila said..!
...Amen! His jealousy is like a fire.. burns away the chaff.. what we believe becomes part of us.. to be submitted.. "progressing" to being (spiritual) virgins.. who follow only the Lord, whithersoever
He goeth.. As a furnace of fire, his Spirit is at work in us.. the fruit of thankfulness.. for what has anyone but what they are given.. why call Me good? Jesus said. "There is only One good.."
:cloud9: :girlheart:
Quote from: CST on October 10, 2018, 12:01:40 PMThis is the only proposition I'm even prepared to consider for the existence of demons: that belief in demons creates demons.
Do you agree with me that according to the Bible, there existed: familiar spirits? unclean spirits? evil spirits?
Do you agree with me that some people (e.g., witches) have been in touch with 'familiar spirits'?
some searches of Young's Literal Translation
https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=familiar+spirit&qs_version=YLT&limit=500
https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=unclean+spirit&qs_version=YLT&limit=500
https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=evil+spirit&qs_version=YLT&limit=500
=============================.
FAMILIAR SPIRITS
Leviticus 19:31 (YLT)
`Ye do not turn unto those having familiar spirits; and unto wizards ye do not seek, for uncleanness by them; I [am] Jehovah your God.
Leviticus 20:6, 27
`And the person who turneth unto those having familiar spirits, and unto the wizards, to go a-whoring after them, I have even set My face against that person, and cut him off from the midst of his people. .... `And a man or woman -- when there is in them a familiar spirit, or who [are] wizards -- are certainly put to death; with stones they stone them; their blood [is] on them.'
Deuteronomy 18:11
and a charmer, and one asking at a familiar spirit, and a wizard, and one seeking unto the dead.
1 Samuel 28:3-9
And Samuel hath died, and all Israel mourn for him, and bury him in Ramah, even in his city, and Saul hath turned aside those having familiar spirits, and the wizards, out of the land.
1 Samuel 28:7-9
And Saul saith to his servants, `Seek for me a woman possessing a familiar spirit, and I go unto her, and inquire of her;' and his servants say unto him, `Lo, a woman possessing a familiar spirit in En-dor.' And Saul disguiseth himself and putteth on other garments, and goeth, he and two of the men with him, and they come in unto the woman by night, and he saith, `Divine, I pray thee, to me by the familiar spirit, and cause to come up to me him whom I say unto thee.' And the woman saith unto him, `Lo, thou hast known that which Saul hath done, that he hath cut off those having familiar spirits, and the wizards, out of the land; and why art thou laying a snare for my soul -- to put me to death?'
2 Kings 21:6
and he hath caused his son to pass through fire, and observed clouds, and used enchantment, and dealt with a familiar spirit and wizards; he hath multiplied to do the evil thing in the eyes of Jehovah -- to provoke to anger.
2 Kings 23:24
And also, those having familiar spirits, and the wizards, and the teraphim, and the idols, and all the abominations that were seen in the land of Judah, and in Jerusalem, hath Josiah put away, in order to establish the words of the law that are written on the book that Hilkiah the priest hath found in the house of Jehovah.
1 Chronicles 10:13
And Saul dieth because of his trespass that he trespassed against Jehovah, against the word of Jehovah that he kept not, and also for asking at a familiar spirit -- to inquire, --
2 Chronicles 33:6
And he hath caused his sons to pass over through fire in the valley of the son of Hinnom, and observed clouds and used enchantments and witchcraft, and dealt with a familiar spirit, and a wizard; he hath multiplied to do the evil thing in the eyes of Jehovah, to provoke him to anger.
Isaiah 8:19
And when they say unto you, `Seek unto those having familiar spirits, And unto wizards, who chatter and mutter, Doth not a people seek unto its God? -- For the living unto the dead!
Isaiah 19:3
And emptied out hath been in its midst the spirit of Egypt. And its counsel I swallow up, And they have sought unto the idols, And unto the charmers, And unto those having familiar spirits, And unto the wizards.
=============================.
UNCLEAN SPIRITS
Matthew 10:1
And having called to him his twelve disciples, he gave to them power over unclean spirits, so as to be casting them out, and to be healing every sickness, and every malady.
Matthew 12:43
`And, when the unclean spirit may go forth from the man, it doth walk through dry places seeking rest, and doth not find;
Mark 1:23-27
And there was in their synagogue a man with an unclean spirit, and he cried out, .... and the unclean spirit having torn him, and having cried with a great voice, came forth out of him, .... and they were all amazed, so as to reason among themselves, saying, `What is this? what new teaching [is] this? that with authority also the unclean spirits he commandeth, and they obey him!'
Mark 3:11
and the unclean spirits, when they were seeing him, were falling down before him, and were crying, saying -- `Thou art the Son of God;'
Mark 5:2-13
and he having come forth out of the boat, immediately there met him out of the tombs a man with an unclean spirit, .... (for he said to him, `Come forth, spirit unclean, out of the man,') .... and immediately Jesus gave them leave, and having come forth, the unclean spirits did enter into the swine, and the herd did rush down the steep place to the sea -- and they were about two thousand -- and they were choked in the sea.
Mark 6:7
and he doth call near the twelve, and he began to send them forth two by two, and he was giving them power over the unclean spirits,
Mark 7:25
for a woman having heard about him, whose little daughter had an unclean spirit, having come, fell at his feet, --
Mark 9:25
Jesus having seen that a multitude doth run together, rebuked the unclean spirit, saying to it, `Spirit -- dumb and deaf -- I charge thee, come forth out of him, and no more thou mayest enter into him;'
Luke 4:33
And in the synagogue was a man, having a spirit of an unclean demon, and he cried out with a great voice, .... and amazement came upon all, and they were speaking together, with one another, saying, `What [is] this word, that with authority and power he doth command the unclean spirits, and they come forth?'
Luke 6:18
and those harassed by unclean spirits, and they were healed,
Luke 8:29
For he commanded the unclean spirit to come forth from the man, for many times it had caught him, and he was being bound with chains and fetters -- guarded, and breaking asunder the bonds he was driven by the demons to the deserts.
Luke 9:42
and as he is yet coming near, the demon rent him, and tore [him] sore, and Jesus rebuked the unclean spirit, and healed the youth, and gave him back to his father.
Luke 11:24
`When the unclean spirit may go forth from the man it walketh through waterless places seeking rest, and not finding, it saith, I will turn back to my house whence I came forth;
Acts 5:16
and there were coming together also the people of the cities round about to Jerusalem, bearing ailing persons, and those harassed by unclean spirits -- who were all healed.
Acts 8:7
for unclean spirits came forth from many who were possessed, crying with a loud voice, and many who have been paralytic and lame were healed,
Revelation 16:13
and I saw [come] out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet, three unclean spirits like frogs --
Revelation 18:2
and he did cry in might -- a great voice, saying, `Fall, fall did Babylon the great, and she became a habitation of demons, and a hold of every unclean spirit, and a hold of every unclean and hateful bird,
=============================.
EVIL SPIRITS
Judges 9:23
and God sendeth an evil spirit between Abimelech and the masters of Shechem, and the masters of Shechem deal treacherously with Abimelech,
1 Kings 22:23
And now, lo, Jehovah hath put a spirit of falsehood in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and Jehovah hath spoken concerning thee -- evil.'
Matthew 12:45
then doth it go, and take with itself seven other spirits more evil than itself, and having gone in they dwell there, and the last of that man doth become worse than the first; so shall it be also to this evil generation.'
Luke 7:21
And in that hour he cured many from sicknesses, and plagues, and evil spirits, and to many blind he granted sight.
Luke 8:2
and certain women, who were healed of evil spirits and infirmities, Mary who is called Magdalene, from whom seven demons had gone forth,
Luke 11:26
then doth it go, and take to it seven other spirits more evil than itself, and having entered, they dwell there, and the last of that man becometh worst than the first.'
Acts 19:12-16
so that even unto the ailing were brought from his body handkerchiefs or aprons, and the sicknesses departed from them; the evil spirits also went forth from them. And certain of the wandering exorcist Jews, took upon [them] to name over those having the evil spirits the name of the Lord Jesus, saying, `We adjure you by Jesus, whom Paul doth preach;' .... and the evil spirit, answering, said, `Jesus I know, and Paul I am acquainted with; and ye -- who are ye?' .... And the man, in whom was the evil spirit, leaping upon them, and having overcome them, prevailed against them, so that naked and wounded they did flee out of that house,
I've got an idea. Why don't you go ask a witch to put a curse on you? If you don't believe in demons, there is absolutely nothing to worry about according to you.
No, don't actually do that, but if you really wanted to(a bad idea) you could test your beliefs out.
To me, I think the question is, can angels think and reason?
..in all fairness...that evil spirits exist does'freak' a lot of people out. fear?unbelief in the scriptures[Jesus/wordof God come inflesh}?
arrogance ofmodern man?/and in reality the ignorance of people in the past in these matters[evileye/superstitions etc] have played it's
part in it.Really,it's up to God to reveal these things..whether through a dream,manifestation or in whatever way He decides.
we areNOT to fear them..but draw/stay close to God.my :2c:
Quote from: CST on October 10, 2018, 12:06:33 PMI think belief in demons is a rather negative idea
For some, belief that wer beasts exist "is a rather negative idea." Rebecca Brown describes a frightening encounter she had with a werwolf in
_He Came to Set the Captives Free_ (1986), 288pp., 228-9.
https://www.amazon.com/He-Came-Set-Captives-Free/dp/0883683237/
Quoteit's questions like these that make me doubt the existence of demons. Demons seem to block the access of the possessed to God. When I believed in the tradition view of Hell I often wondered what happened if someone died while still possessed by a demon. How did their being possessed after their standing before God when judged. Since the effect didn't sound promising I started to doubt demons exist. I still do, I don't see unfair for God to judge people for their offences against others which they chose to commit. However offences they committed that they were compelled or tricked into committing by Satan or demons.
Apparently demons can at times prevent people from turning their allegiance to Jesus. Brown recalls one guy she was witnessing to who'd been put under a voodoo curse and consequently couldn't become a Christ-follower for over 50 years. "I then, out loud, addressed Satan and his demons and in the name of Jesus bound them." The guy subsequently became a Christian. Brown, 151-2.
Everything that happened God allowed to happen. Including people being cursed or tricked.
2 Thessalonians 2:9-12 (NIV)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Thessalonians%202&version=DLNT;YLT;KJV;NIV
The coming of the lawless one
will be in accordance with how Satan works.
He will use all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders that serve the lie,
and all the ways that wickedness deceives those who are perishing.
They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.
For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion
so that they will believe the lie
and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth
but have delighted in wickedness.
Romans 1:28 (NIV)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+1&version=DLNT;YLT;KJV;NIV
Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile
to retain the knowledge of God,
so God gave them over to a depraved mind,
so that they do what ought not to be done.
Quote from: sheila on October 11, 2018, 03:29:53 AMthat evil spirits exist does'freak' a lot of people out .... we areNOT to fear them..but draw/stay close to God
1 John 4:3-4 (KJV)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20John+4&version=KJV
And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God:
and this is that spirit of antichrist,
whereof ye have heard that it should come;
and even now already is it in the world.
Ye are of God, little children,
and have overcome them:
because greater is he that is in you,
than he that is in the world.
James 4:7-8 (KJV)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=James+4&version=KJV
Submit yourselves therefore to God.
Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
Draw nigh to God,
and he will draw nigh to you. ....
Quote from: marie glen on October 11, 2018, 03:13:14 AMTo me, I think the question is, can angels think and reason?
In the Bible accounts of angels doing 2-way communicating with people, could the angels: think? reason?
Quote from: MusicLover123 on October 11, 2018, 03:07:25 AMI've got an idea. Why don't you go ask a witch to put a curse on you? If you don't believe in demons, there is absolutely nothing to worry about according to you.
No, don't actually do that, but if you really wanted to(a bad idea) you could test your beliefs out.
I once knew someone who somebody cursed with a particular form of sudden, violent death, and the cursed person subsequently died in just such a manner. No witches were involved, but demons definitely were.
control-f/ find for: unspoken
Death-inviting Curses, and How to Break Them
http://podbay.fm/show/665532730
:2c:it is always better to let our Father and the Holy spirit teach us about these things...and not go out on our own to 'verify'or try
His word on it.Neither should mere curiosity be indulged in. If He thinks you need to know certain things..He definitely will prepare
and educate you regarding it.He prepares us for whatever manner of service He desires. We can always pray and ask the Father
about things.
Quote from: sheila on October 11, 2018, 06:12:13 AM
:2c:it is always better to let our Father and the Holy spirit teach us about these things...and not go out on our own to 'verify'or try
His word on it.Neither should mere curiosity be indulged in. If He thinks you need to know certain things..He definitely will prepare
and educate you regarding it.He prepares us for whatever manner of service He desires. We can always pray and ask the Father
about things.
:thumbsup:
Quote from: sheila on October 11, 2018, 06:12:13 AM
:2c:it is always better to let our Father and the Holy spirit teach us about these things...and not go out on our own to 'verify'or try
His word on it.Neither should mere curiosity be indulged in. If He thinks you need to know certain things..He definitely will prepare
and educate you regarding it.He prepares us for whatever manner of service He desires. We can always pray and ask the Father
about things.
Prayer may be difficult for some at times but it becomes all there is, because God becomes more and more into our lives with every thought of Him, helping through every obstacle – and, it seems to me, that without obstacles we never get to utilise the prayer that deeply touches the Lord; and without obstacles we pass out of this life empty. So, as strange as it may sound, overcoming the 'demons' with prayer will show them to have been blessings in regard to the fullness they have brought when this short life is over. Faith Faith Faith...
Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, that there may be food in my house. 'Test me in this', says the Lord Almighty, 'and see if I will not throw open the floodgates of heaven and pour out so much blessing that there will not be room enough to store it'.
There is no place in the scripture that says anything about people being tormented by devils/demons in hell or sheol or gehenna or hades. Milton and Dante were fiction writers. Their fiction was written out of the popular myths of their time and the recent historical myths of their cultures, sort of like fantasy writers today.
As far as the judgments of the age(s) to come, they are spoken of(imo) in metaphorical language,, but the nature of these judgments is made clear in a number of places, but especially in 1 Corinthians 15.
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed(katargeo) is death. 27 For he "has put everything under his feet." Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.
Jesus has conquered death and sin and is enthroned by the Father for the purpose of subjecting all the adversaries "so that God may be all in all"...... not so that most can be eternally separated from God. If death is anulled then it is because sin is no more and whatever the second death is it will also be made void, when all things are reconciled and God is "all in all"(katargeo- .From kata and argeo; to be (render) entirely idle (useless), literally or figuratively -- abolish, cease, cumber, deliver, destroy, do away, become (make) of no (none, without) effect, fail, loose, bring (come) to nought, put away (down), vanish away, make void.
Colossians 1 says
For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.
The reason it pleased the Father to make all His fulness dwell in Jesus was for the purpose of reconciling all things to Himself, again- so that He will be all in all.
Eph 1 speaks of that purpose as a "His good pleasure which He purposed in Christ"
With all wisdom and understanding, 9 he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, 10 to be put into effect when the times reach their fulfillment—to bring unity to all things in heaven and on earth under Christ.
Heaven is coming to earth. Heaven is the reign of God's love through Christ's kingdom. All things will be in "heaven" and heaven will be in all things when God is "all in all". Already, even now Paul says, "For in Him we live and breath and have our being"(Acts 17)
David says, "Tho I make my bed in Sheol, there you are with me." There is no place where He does not reign, and the gates of Sheol cannot prevail against the ecclesia, His first fruits of Creation, "Behold, I am making all things new".
A 500 page fairy tale is still a fairy tale. The scriptures are clear. "Mercy triumphs over judgment" God will teach the wicked grace, forgiveness and righteousness through all He does, most of which we cannot yet understand, but, "every knee shall bow, whether in heaven or on earth or under the earth, and every tongue confess, that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father." \o/
Quote from: sheila on October 11, 2018, 06:12:13 AM
:2c:it is always better to let our Father and the Holy spirit teach us about these things...and not go out on our own to 'verify'or try
His word on it.Neither should mere curiosity be indulged in. If He thinks you need to know certain things..He definitely will prepare
and educate you regarding it.He prepares us for whatever manner of service He desires. We can always pray and ask the Father
about things.
:thumbsup: :iagree: :cloud9:
Quote from: lastpost on October 11, 2018, 10:25:37 PM
Prayer may be difficult for some at times but it becomes all there is, because God becomes more and more into our lives with every thought of Him, helping through every obstacle – and, it seems to me, that without obstacles we never get to utilise the prayer that deeply touches the Lord; and without obstacles we pass out of this life empty. So, as strange as it may sound, overcoming the 'demons' with prayer will show them to have been blessings in regard to the fullness they have brought when this short life is over. Faith Faith Faith...
Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, that there may be food in my house. 'Test me in this', says the Lord Almighty, 'and see if I will not throw open the floodgates of heaven and pour out so much blessing that there will not be room enough to store it'.
Amen! :cloud9: :cloud9:
Quote from: eaglesway on October 12, 2018, 07:42:27 AM
There is no place in the scripture that says anything about people being tormented by devils/demons in hell or sheol or gehenna or hades. Milton and Dante were fiction writers. Their fiction was written out of the popular myths of their time and the recent historical myths of their cultures, sort of like fantasy writers today.
As far as the judgments of the age(s) to come, they are spoken of(imo) in metaphorical language,, but the nature of these judgments is made clear in a number of places, but especially in 1 Corinthians 15.
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed(katargeo) is death. 27 For he “has put everything under his feet.” Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.
Jesus has conquered death and sin and is enthroned by the Father for the purpose of subjecting all the adversaries "so that God may be all in all"...... not so that most can be eternally separated from God. If death is anulled then it is because sin is no more and whatever the second death is it will also be made void, when all things are reconciled and God is "all in all"(katargeo- .From kata and argeo; to be (render) entirely idle (useless), literally or figuratively -- abolish, cease, cumber, deliver, destroy, do away, become (make) of no (none, without) effect, fail, loose, bring (come) to nought, put away (down), vanish away, make void.
Colossians 1 says
For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.
The reason it pleased the Father to make all His fulness dwell in Jesus was for the purpose of reconciling all things to Himself, again- so that He will be all in all.
Eph 1 speaks of that purpose as a "His good pleasure which He purposed in Christ"
With all wisdom and understanding, 9 he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, 10 to be put into effect when the times reach their fulfillment—to bring unity to all things in heaven and on earth under Christ.
Heaven is coming to earth. Heaven is the reign of God's love through Christ's kingdom. All things will be in "heaven" and heaven will be in all things when God is "all in all". Already, even now Paul says, "For in Him we live and breath and have our being"(Acts 17)
David says, "Tho I make my bed in Sheol, there you are with me." There is no place where He does not reign, and the gates of Sheol cannot prevail against the ecclesia, His first fruits of Creation, "Behold, I am making all things new".
A 500 page fairy tale is still a fairy tale. The scriptures are clear. "Mercy triumphs over judgment" God will teach the wicked grace, forgiveness and righteousness through all He does, most of which we cannot yet understand, but, "every knee shall bow, whether in heaven or on earth or under the earth, and every tongue confess, that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father." \o/
:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :dsunny:
...p.s. "...2nd death, void, etc.." ....gone. Came to mind when reading that.. :gsmile: also no more opposition.. yaay..
Quote from: DavidFord on October 10, 2018, 04:36:28 AM
Quote from: CST on October 09, 2018, 02:41:46 PM
Really, show me because I've never seen a dragon, I was of the impression they don't exist in reality.
I've seen a video about one:
Komodo Dragon - Epic Wildlife
https://youtu.be/WCjNQqRdv7U
I've never seen a leviathan, but I accept that they existed. And its description sounds dragon-like to me:
Job 41 (KJV)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Job+41&version=KJV
1 Canst thou draw out leviathan with an hook? or his tongue with a cord which thou lettest down?
2 Canst thou put an hook into his nose? or bore his jaw through with a thorn?
3 Will he make many supplications unto thee? will he speak soft words unto thee?
4 Will he make a covenant with thee? wilt thou take him for a servant for ever?
5 Wilt thou play with him as with a bird? or wilt thou bind him for thy maidens?
6 Shall the companions make a banquet of him? shall they part him among the merchants?
7 Canst thou fill his skin with barbed irons? or his head with fish spears?
8 Lay thine hand upon him, remember the battle, do no more.
9 Behold, the hope of him is in vain: shall not one be cast down even at the sight of him?
10 None is so fierce that dare stir him up: who then is able to stand before me?
11 Who hath prevented me, that I should repay him? whatsoever is under the whole heaven is mine.
12 I will not conceal his parts, nor his power, nor his comely proportion.
13 Who can discover the face of his garment? or who can come to him with his double bridle?
14 Who can open the doors of his face? his teeth are terrible round about.
15 His scales are his pride, shut up together as with a close seal.
16 One is so near to another, that no air can come between them.
17 They are joined one to another, they stick together, that they cannot be sundered.
18 By his neesings a light doth shine, and his eyes are like the eyelids of the morning.
19 Out of his mouth go burning lamps, and sparks of fire leap out.
20 Out of his nostrils goeth smoke, as out of a seething pot or caldron.
21 His breath kindleth coals, and a flame goeth out of his mouth.
22 In his neck remaineth strength, and sorrow is turned into joy before him.
23 The flakes of his flesh are joined together: they are firm in themselves; they cannot be moved.
24 His heart is as firm as a stone; yea, as hard as a piece of the nether millstone.
25 When he raiseth up himself, the mighty are afraid: by reason of breakings they purify themselves.
26 The sword of him that layeth at him cannot hold: the spear, the dart, nor the habergeon.
27 He esteemeth iron as straw, and brass as rotten wood.
28 The arrow cannot make him flee: slingstones are turned with him into stubble.
29 Darts are counted as stubble: he laugheth at the shaking of a spear.
30 Sharp stones are under him: he spreadeth sharp pointed things upon the mire.
31 He maketh the deep to boil like a pot: he maketh the sea like a pot of ointment.
32 He maketh a path to shine after him; one would think the deep to be hoary.
33 Upon earth there is not his like, who is made without fear.
34 He beholdeth all high things: he is a king over all the children of pride.
Psalm 74:13-14 (KJV)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm+74&version=KJV
Thou didst divide the sea by thy strength:
thou brakest the heads of the dragons in the waters.
Thou brakest the heads of leviathan in pieces,
and gavest him to be meat to the people inhabiting the wilderness.
Isaiah 26:21-27:1 (KJV)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah+26&version=KJV
For, behold, the Lord cometh out of his place
to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity:
the earth also shall disclose her blood,
and shall no more cover her slain.
In that day the Lord with his sore and great and strong sword
shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent,
even leviathan that crooked serpent;
and he shall slay the dragon that is in the sea.
"Especially if the drugs actually turned out to work better"
Are you aware of any drugs that can cure blindness?
"The only person that comes of badly when Jesus struggles to heal is Jesus since God fails at nothing"
Jesus had to make 2 attempts to get a blind man seeing properly, and Jesus struggled a little in casting the demons out of the demon-oppressed guy that lived in the cemetary:
Mark 8 (from Aramaic, based on Younan)
22. And he came to Beth-Saida and they brought a blind man to him and were entreating him to touch him. 23. And he took the hand of the blind man and led him outside of the village. And he spat on his eyes and placed his hands (on him) and asked him what he saw. 24. He looked and said, "I see the sons of men resembling trees that are walking." 25. He again placed his hand upon his eyes. And he was restored and was seeing everything clearly.
Lk 8
26. And they journeyed and came to the land of the Gadarenes which is on the other side opposite of Galeela. 27. And when he went out onto land, a certain man from the medintha [city] caught up to him in whom had been a deewa [demon] for a long time. And he would not wear clothing and he would not dwell in a house, but in the cemetery. 28. And when he saw Yeshua, he cried out and fell down before him and in a loud voice said, "What have we to do with each other, Yeshua, the Son of the Most High Allaha? I beseech you, do not torment me." 29. For Yeshua was commanding to him-- to the unclean rukha [spirit]-- to go out from the man. For much time had passed since he was held captive by him. And he was bound with chains and he was restrained with bonds, but he would break his bonds and would be driven by the shada [demons] into the wilderness. 30. And Yeshua asked him,
"What is your name?"
He said to him, "Legion," because many deewa [demons] had entered into him. 31. And they were beseeching him that he would not command them to go to the abyss. 32. And there was there a herd of numerous swine that was feeding on the tuora [mountain], and they were beseeching him to permit them to enter into the swine. And he permitted them. 33. And the shada went out from the man and entered in the swine. And that whole herd rushed to a cliff and fell into the lake and they drowned. 34. And when the herders saw what happened, they fled and reported it in the medintha and in the villages. 35. And men came out to see what happened, and they came to Yeshua and found that man shadohy [whose shada] had departed, dressed and sober and sitting at the feet of Yeshua, and they were afraid. 36. And those who had seen (it) reported to them how he healed that possessed man.
"And Yeshua asked him, 'What is your name?'
Knowing a demon's name can assist in expelling it.
Praying Medic, _Divine Healing Made Simple_ (2013), 266pp.,173-4:
Steve Harmon shared his personal experiences on his Facebook page and allowed me to publish them here:
There was a time when I didn't feel it was necessary to know the name of the demon, until one night. It was a cold and rainy night and we were on our way to pray for a friend, driving on the freeway. Suddenly my girl friend started to feel dizzy and nauseous. Then her legs started hurting so badly that they felt like they were being crushed. Then her head started hurting. I knew this was a demonic attack. I put my hand on her and commanded healing. She could feel power and heat come off my hand but the demon would override it, making it ineffective. Her vision started to go black and white and she was about to pass out. I prayed for ten minutes and nothing worked, not even a little. I told her to start worshiping. That didn't work. I told her to speak her identity in Christ over herself. That didn't work. I told her to plead the blood Christ over herself. That didn't work. I put my hand on her stomach and released joy on her. She felt joy come off my hand but the demon literally suppressed it.
This went on for 25 minutes and nothing was working. I felt completely powerless. I told infirmity and trauma to go and nothing worked. I said, "Demon leave," several times and there was no progress at all. Through this whole time, I'm asking God for help, but I heard nothing. I thought to myself, "Jesus calmed the storm by living from rest." So, I calmed down. Once I was at rest, I put my hand on her and spoke peace into her. She felt peace come off my hand, but the demon suppressed it. I didn't know what to do. I did everything that I had ever been taught through all my training in deliverance. I parked the car to the side of the road and sat there. All of sudden, I hear the Lord speak to me and say, "It is witchcraft and it was put on her." Immediately I turned and said, "Witchcraft — come out!" Instantly, she felt something move in her body. The demon left within 20 seconds and she was totally healed. ....
"Especially if the drugs actually turned out to work better"
Perhaps psychiactric drugs failed to help Jersey.
Re: M. Scott Peck, _Glimpses of the Devil: A Psychiatrist's Personal Accounts of Possession_ (2009)
https://www.amazon.com/Glimpses-Devil-Psychiatrists-Personal-Possession/dp/1439167265
Until the day Dr. Peck first met the young woman called Jersey, he did not believe in the devil. In fact, as a mature, highly experienced psychiatrist, he expected that this case would resolve his ongoing effort to prove to himself, as scientifically as possible, that there were absolutely no grounds for such beliefs. Yet what he discovered could not be explained away simply as madness or by any standard clinical diagnosis. Through a series of unanticipated events, Dr. Peck found himself thrust into the role of exorcist, and his desire to treat and help Jersey led him down a path of blurred boundaries between science and religion. Once there, he came face-to-face with deeply entrenched evil and ultimately witnessed the overwhelming healing power of love.
"if the Bible was clearer on demons we might have less reason to doubt they exist and therefore be less likely to abandon our fight against them. But we have abandoned our fight which suggests to me that given what Jesus said about them they'll have possessed the whole world by now. If they actually existed"
"given what Jesus said about them"
What are 2 remarks by Jesus you're thinking of?
Has the Arizona Deliverance Center abandoned its fight against demons?
https://www.hardcorechristianity.com/about-us/
Our Mission
Acts 26:18/Mark 7:27: "To open the eyes of Christians to turn them from the deception of seducing spirits to the real truth of Christianity. To turn them from the lies of the devil to the Truth of God, that they might understand that evil spirits have over-run the churches in North America & that Christians can be infected (not possessed) with spirits and need deliverance & that they can receive forgiveness of sins, physical healing & deliverance from demonic disease & mental illness & that they can receive an inheritance among those that are sanctified by Faith in Christ & understand that the Children's Bread of deliverance is for all saints."
Do you think those at Heart of the Father Ministries have abandoned their fight against demons?
https://www.heartofthefather.com/about/the-five-keys/
Every child of God carries the authority of the Father in the name of Jesus. In Luke 1:71, we learn that in Christ, you have "salvation from our enemies and from the hand of all who hate us." You do have enemies that have sought to rob you of your freedom. In the authority of Jesus, you can take our stand against them through repentance, forgiveness, and renunciation. Then the leader will declare victory by saying, "In the name of Jesus Christ, I command every spirit that (your name) has renounced to leave... right now." The command is an expression of faith that the enemy's power has been broken in our lives.
"the Bible... doesn't support the existence of demons"
Do you think the Bible supports the existence of unclean spirits?
23 Bible results for "unclean spirit."
https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=unclean+spirit&qs_version=KJV
"I can still believe in what it represents however"
What do you think the Tartarus mentioned here represents?:
2 Peter 2:4 (Young's Literal Translation)
https://biblehub.com/ylt/2_peter/2.htm
For if God messengers who sinned did not spare, but with chains of thick gloom, having cast [them] down to Tartarus, did deliver [them] to judgment, having been reserved,
Nice a joke, well done.
I don't know what a Leviathan is meant to be so i can't know whether i'm supposed to believe they exist or not though whatever it is I suspect it and Satan are the same thing unless it's a real creature like the giant squid or something.
I think there are drugs that can treat certain types of blindness if given at the right time but I'm not absolutely sure. But if there aren't that doesn't mean such things are impossible. Remember the principle lesson of Jesus healing the blind: we are all blind unless He gives us sight.
Does the Bible say knowing a demon's name a can assist in expelling it or is that extrabiblical demon lore?
I think I've already answered most of the rest of those questions.
Jesus struggled to heal? That's not the impression I get when I read just the 1st chapter of Mark..
When He put mud on the man's eyes, etc. I'm sure it was as a lesson for the man.. or to help the man's faith, and, or is a lesson to all of us.. But I can't believe it was because Jesus struggled to be able to heal.. Now if you meant sought to increase a person's faith so they could be healed.. that I get. "Your faith has made you whole.." and the like..
:Peace2: God bless..
I was thinking a struggle maybe because of the person's unbelief, that makes it hard to heal them...
Amen, thanks.. :girlheart:
Quote from: eaglesway on October 12, 2018, 07:42:27 AM
There is no place in the scripture that says anything about people being tormented by devils/demons in hell or sheol or gehenna or hades.
Does scripture say anything about people being tormented by:
devils while on earth?
heat in Sheol?
heat in Hades?
fire in Gehenna?
QuoteDavid says, "Tho I make my bed in Sheol, there you are with me." There is no place where He does not reign, and the gates of Sheol cannot prevail against the ecclesia, His first fruits of Creation, "Behold, I am making all things new".
Yes, God is omnipresent.
"There is no place where He does not reign"
Do you think God reigns over Las Vegas, which had a mass shooting last year? Does God currently reign in the hearts of all humans now alive on earth?
Quote from: CST on October 12, 2018, 05:59:25 PM
Does the Bible say knowing a demon's name a can assist in expelling it or is that extrabiblical demon lore?
The Bible doesn't "say knowing a demon's name a can assist in expelling it."
I don't know how widespread Harmon's experiential knowledge is about the usefulness at times of knowing a demon's name.
Praying Medic, _Divine Healing Made Simple_ (2013), 266pp.,173-4:
Steve Harmon shared his personal experiences on his Facebook page and allowed me to publish them here: ....
I had another situation where the person was having bad lower abdominal pain. I prayed for two hours for healing and nothing worked. I commanded witchcraft, parasite, sickness and tons of other names to leave, but nothing would change. It was 12 midnight and I was tired. I felt bad because I couldn't pray anymore. I laid on the couch and then a word came into my head, "Death." I said, "Death come up." This person said, "It just moved." Then I got another word, "Sorcery." It moved again. All of a sudden I was full of energy and back in the game. I commanded "Death" to come up. I asked death how many demons there were. He said, "Five." I Said, "Name them." He said, "death, sorcery, sickness, word curses, and insomnia." I said to death, "Where do you want to go? The feet of Jesus or the abyss?" He said, "The feet of Jesus." (For some reason, demons choose that option the most.) I said, "I'll send you there if you kick out the four other demons that you are in charge of. If you do that, I'll send you there." The demon agreed. The first four demons came out easy and then I told death to go and the person was completely healed right then.
There were times when Jesus told the demon to leave without getting its name and the demon would go. Then there were times when Jesus would first call out the name of the demon and then it would it go. He would say, "Deaf and dumb spirit, come out," "Unclean spirit," or "Legion." The thing is, with some demons, having its name allows you to assert more of your will over it, breaking its power. But just because you get the name of a demon that doesn't mean it will come out easily every time. It will only come out easily sometimes. Other times it will take longer and in some cases, getting its name won't matter.
Quote from: marie glen on October 12, 2018, 07:02:28 PM
Jesus struggled to heal? That's not the impression I get when I read just the 1st chapter of Mark..
When He put mud on the man's eyes, etc. I'm sure it was as a lesson for the man.. or to help the man's faith, and, or is a lesson to all of us.. But I can't believe it was because Jesus struggled to be able to heal
Did Jesus heal the blindness of the 'I now see men walking like trees' guy on the: 1st attempt? 2nd attempt?
When Jesus told the demons bothering the guy that lived in the cemetery to leave, did the demons:
immediately obey Jesus and leave? 'drag their heels,' eventually negotiating with Jesus the terms of their leaving?
Quote from: MusicLover123 on October 12, 2018, 08:30:25 PM
I was thinking a struggle maybe because of the person's unbelief, that makes it hard to heal them...
While in an unglorified human body, Jesus:
1) benefited from angelic assistance
Matthew 4:11 (KJV) Then the devil leaveth him, and, behold, angels came and ministered unto him.
Luke 22 (KJV) 42 Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done. 43 And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him. 44 And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly....
2) was on at-least one occasion tired
John 4:6 (YLT) and there was there a well of Jacob. Jesus therefore having been weary from the journeying, was sitting thus on the well; it was as it were the sixth hour;
3) was on at-least two occasions hungry
Luke 4:2 (YLT) forty days being tempted by the Devil, and he did not eat anything in those days, and they having been ended, he afterward hungered,
Matthew 21:18 (YLT)
and in the morning turning back to the city, he hungered,
4) probably was thirsty while on the cross
John 19:28 (YLT) After this, Jesus knowing that all things now have been finished, that the Writing may be fulfilled, saith, `I thirst;'
"a struggle maybe because of the person's unbelief, that makes it hard to heal"
Jesus didn't let others' unbelief stop him from bringing God's healing to those people that'd been presented to Jesus for healing.
Mark 9 (KJV)
24 And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.
25 When Jesus saw that the people came running together, he rebuked the foul spirit, saying unto him, Thou dumb and deaf spirit, I charge thee, come out of him, and enter no more into him.
26 And the spirit cried, and rent him sore, and came out of him: and he was as one dead; insomuch that many said, He is dead.
27 But Jesus took him by the hand, and lifted him up; and he arose.
Matthew 17 (from Aramaic, based on Younan), http://dukhrana.com
14. And when they came towards the crowds, a man approached him and bowed down on his knees, 15. and said to him, "Mari [my lord], have mercy upon me, for my son-- who has a demon of lunacy and is badly afflicted-- many times he has fallen in the fire, and many times in water. 16. And I brought him to your talmida [students], and they were not able to heal him."
17. Yeshua answered and said,
"Oh generation which is crooked and not mahaymina [faithful]!
Until when must I be with you?
And until when must I endure you?
Bring him here to me."
18. And Yeshua rebuked it, and the shada [demon] went out from him. And the boy was healed from that moment. 19. Then the talmida drew near towards Yeshua (while he was) alone and said to him, "Why were we not able to heal him?" 20. Yeshua said to them,
"Because of your unbelief.
For amain I say to you that
if (you) had faith in you like a grain of mustard seed,
you could say to this tuora [mountain],
'move away from here,' and it would move.
And not a thing would be able to prevail over you.
21. But this kind does not go out except by fasting and by prayer."
:2c: Matt 13;58 and he did notdo any miracles there because of their lack of faith. prophet without honour. Now,whether He didn't
because of that..and did not reward their lack of faith[he who has more will be given]or couldn't because of it[personally I think
didn't..not couldn't......] I suppose people may have differing pov's
Quote from: DavidFord on October 13, 2018, 03:25:57 AM
Quote from: CST on October 12, 2018, 05:59:25 PM
Does the Bible say knowing a demon's name a can assist in expelling it or is that extrabiblical demon lore?
Then it doesn't help in a way to make that statement that it does.
Quote from: CST on October 13, 2018, 01:51:20 PM
Quote from: DavidFord on October 13, 2018, 03:25:57 AM
Quote from: CST on October 12, 2018, 05:59:25 PM
Does the Bible say knowing a demon's name a can assist in expelling it or is that extrabiblical demon lore?
Then it doesn't help in a way to make that statement that it does.
In your phrase "it does," I don't know what "it" refers to (the Bible? knowing what a demon's name is can be helpful in expelling that demon?)
Do you see anything below you consider incorrect?
Praying Medic, _Divine Healing Made Simple_ (2013), 266pp.,173-4:
Steve Harmon shared his personal experiences on his Facebook page and allowed me to publish them here: ....
I had another situation where the person was having bad lower abdominal pain. I prayed for two hours for healing and nothing worked. I commanded witchcraft, parasite, sickness and tons of other names to leave, but nothing would change. It was 12 midnight and I was tired. I felt bad because I couldn't pray anymore. I laid on the couch and then a word came into my head, "Death." I said, "Death come up." This person said, "It just moved." Then I got another word, "Sorcery." It moved again. All of a sudden I was full of energy and back in the game. I commanded "Death" to come up. I asked death how many demons there were. He said, "Five." I Said, "Name them." He said, "death, sorcery, sickness, word curses, and insomnia." I said to death, "Where do you want to go? The feet of Jesus or the abyss?" He said, "The feet of Jesus." (For some reason, demons choose that option the most.) I said, "I'll send you there if you kick out the four other demons that you are in charge of. If you do that, I'll send you there." The demon agreed. The first four demons came out easy and then I told death to go and the person was completely healed right then.
There were times when Jesus told the demon to leave without getting its name and the demon would go. Then there were times when Jesus would first call out the name of the demon and then it would it go. He would say, "Deaf and dumb spirit, come out," "Unclean spirit," or "Legion." The thing is, with some demons, having its name allows you to assert more of your will over it, breaking its power. But just because you get the name of a demon that doesn't mean it will come out easily every time. It will only come out easily sometimes. Other times it will take longer and in some cases, getting its name won't matter.
Quote from: sheila on October 13, 2018, 07:32:29 AMMatt 13;58 and he did notdo any miracles there because of their lack of faith. prophet without honour. Now,whether He didn't because of that..and did not reward their lack of faith[he who has more will be given]or couldn't because of it[personally I think didn't..not couldn't......] I suppose people may have differing pov's
Jesus healed those people that were brought to him for healing. I bet that when Jesus visited his hometown, since on the whole the hometown people didn't believe Jesus could bring healing, few sick people were brought to him for healing. Hence, Jesus healed only a few there, since only a few were brought to him.
Mark 6 (NIV)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark+6&version=NIV
1 Jesus left there and went to his hometown, accompanied by his disciples. 2 When the Sabbath came, he began to teach in the synagogue, and many who heard him were amazed.
"Where did this man get these things?" they asked. "What's this wisdom that has been given him? What are these remarkable miracles he is performing? 3 Isn't this the carpenter? Isn't this Mary's son and the brother of James, Joseph, Judas and Simon? Aren't his sisters here with us?" And they took offense at him.
4 Jesus said to them, "A prophet is not without honor except in his own town, among his relatives and in his own home." 5 He could not do any miracles there, except lay his hands on a few sick people and heal them. 6 He was amazed at their lack of faith.
Compare:
NIV
https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?qs_version=NIV&quicksearch=BROUght+healed&begin=47&end=73
Matthew 4:24 News about him spread all over Syria, and people brought to him all who were ill with various diseases, those suffering severe pain, the demon-possessed, those having seizures, and the paralyzed; and he healed them.
Matthew 8:16 When evening came, many who were demon-possessed were brought to him, and he drove out the spirits with a word and healed all the sick.
Matthew 12:22 Then they brought him a demon-possessed man who was blind and mute, and Jesus healed him, so that he could both talk and see.
Luke 4:40 At sunset, the people brought to Jesus all who had various kinds of sickness, and laying his hands on each one, he healed them.
I'm always way impressed with the last verses of the very first chapter of Mark. All in one chapter and by end of that fist chapter.. :gsmile:
32 When evening came, after the sun had set, they began bringing to Him all who were ill and those who were demon-possessed. 33 And the whole city had gathered at the door. 34 And He healed many who were ill with various diseases, and cast out many demons; and He was not permitting the demons to speak, because they knew who He was.
35 In the early morning, while it was still dark, Jesus got up, left the house, and went away to a secluded place, and was praying there. 36 Simon and his companions searched for Him; 37 they found Him, and *said to Him, "Everyone is looking for You." 38 He *said to them, "Let us go somewhere else to the towns nearby, so that I may preach there also; for that is what I came for." 39 And He went into their synagogues throughout all Galilee, preaching and casting out the demons.
40 And a leper *came to Jesus, beseeching Him and falling on his knees before Him, and saying, "If You are willing, You can make me clean." 41 Moved with compassion, Jesus stretched out His hand and touched him, and *said to him, "I am willing; be cleansed." 42 Immediately the leprosy left him and he was cleansed. 43 And He sternly warned him and immediately sent him away, 44 and He *said to him, "See that you say nothing to anyone; but go, show yourself to the priest and offer for your cleansing what Moses commanded, as a testimony to them." 45 But he went out and began to proclaim it freely and to spread the news around, to such an extent that Jesus could no longer publicly enter a city, but stayed out in unpopulated areas; and they were coming to Him from everywhere.
Quote from: marie glen on October 13, 2018, 05:41:05 PM
I'm always way impressed with the last verses of the very first chapter of Mark
let us leave vs. you leave and go before me: Mk 1:38
claim: Jesus was informed people needing healing were looking for him, and he replied in Mark 1:38, 'Let us get out of here.'
reality: The Greek text is too clear-cut in Mark 1:38, while the Aramaic is more ambiguous: maybe Jesus is saying 'let us move on,' but maybe Jesus is instead saying, 'you go on before me.' On several occasions Jesus sent his disciples on ahead of him, and this might very well be one such instance.
Mark 1 (NKJV, which was translated from Greek)
37 When they found Him, they said to Him, "Everyone is looking for You."
38 But He said to them, "Let us go into the next towns, that I may preach there also, because for this purpose I have come forth."
39 And He was preaching in their synagogues throughout all Galilee, and casting out demons.
Mark 1 (based on Younan; translated from Aramaic)
32. And in the evening at the setting of the sun, they brought to him all those who were severely diseased and possessed. 33. And all the medintha [city] was assembled at the door. 34. And he healed many who were severely diseased with diverse weaknesses. And he cast out many deewa [demons], and he did not allow the deewa to speak, because they knew him. 35. And in the morning, he arose very early and went to a secluded place, and he was praying there. 36. And Shimon and those with him were looking for him, 37. and when they found him they said to him, "All the people are looking for you." And he said to them,
"Walk into the villages and into the medintha [cities]
that are nearby, for I will preach there also.
For for this (reason) I have come."
39. And he would preach in all their assemblies in all (of) Galeela and cast out shada [demons].
Jesus sending out the 12, messengers, and the 70
Matthew 10
5. Yeshua sent these twelve and commanded them and said,
"By the way of the heathen do not go,
and to the medintha [cities] of the Samaritans do not enter.
But you go, rather, to the sheep that are lost from the house (of) Israel.
7. And when you go, preach and say that the kingdom of heaven is near.
8. Heal the sick and cleanse the lepers and cast out deewa [demons].
Freely you have received,
freely give.
Luke 9:51-52 And it happened that when the days of his journey were fulfilled, he hardened his face to go to Urishlim. And he sent messengers before his face, and they came (and) entered a village of the Shamaritans in order to prepare for him.
Luke 10:1 After these things, Yeshua appointed seventy from his other talmida [students] and sent them two by two before his face to all regions and medintha [cities] that he was about to go (to).
Quote from: DavidFord on October 13, 2018, 03:59:40 PM
Quote from: CST on October 13, 2018, 01:51:20 PM
Quote from: DavidFord on October 13, 2018, 03:25:57 AM
Quote from: CST on October 12, 2018, 05:59:25 PM
Does the Bible say knowing a demon's name a can assist in expelling it or is that extrabiblical demon lore?
Then it doesn't help in a way to make that statement that it does.
In your phrase "it does," I don't know what "it" refers to (the Bible? knowing what a demon's name is can be helpful in expelling that demon?)
Do you see anything below you consider incorrect?
Praying Medic, _Divine Healing Made Simple_ (2013), 266pp.,173-4:
Steve Harmon shared his personal experiences on his Facebook page and allowed me to publish them here: ....
I had another situation where the person was having bad lower abdominal pain. I prayed for two hours for healing and nothing worked. I commanded witchcraft, parasite, sickness and tons of other names to leave, but nothing would change. It was 12 midnight and I was tired. I felt bad because I couldn't pray anymore. I laid on the couch and then a word came into my head, "Death." I said, "Death come up." This person said, "It just moved." Then I got another word, "Sorcery." It moved again. All of a sudden I was full of energy and back in the game. I commanded "Death" to come up. I asked death how many demons there were. He said, "Five." I Said, "Name them." He said, "death, sorcery, sickness, word curses, and insomnia." I said to death, "Where do you want to go? The feet of Jesus or the abyss?" He said, "The feet of Jesus." (For some reason, demons choose that option the most.) I said, "I'll send you there if you kick out the four other demons that you are in charge of. If you do that, I'll send you there." The demon agreed. The first four demons came out easy and then I told death to go and the person was completely healed right then.
There were times when Jesus told the demon to leave without getting its name and the demon would go. Then there were times when Jesus would first call out the name of the demon and then it would it go. He would say, "Deaf and dumb spirit, come out," "Unclean spirit," or "Legion." The thing is, with some demons, having its name allows you to assert more of your will over it, breaking its power. But just because you get the name of a demon that doesn't mean it will come out easily every time. It will only come out easily sometimes. Other times it will take longer and in some cases, getting its name won't matter.
Yes, you recognising anything Steve Harmon says as authoritative.
While I'm still unsure about the nature of evil forces, I think they exist in some capacity, and I think we can invite or expel them with how we live our lives similar to the law of attraction. Whether it's sentient beings or just forces or spirits or what I don't know yet.
However things like this story don't ring true to me.
One: isn't witchcraft and sorcery the same thing?
Two: why does he give the evil spirits a choice in where they go and where is the biblical support that they will go to either place at this time? Mostly Jesus just told them to leave except when legion asked to go into pigs.
Three: you can command parasites to leave?
Maybe he's just more in the know than me, I'll try to keep myself humble, but I'm just confused by the account.
I tend to think of most things except the bible as fiction, whether in whole or in part.. Sure history's documented.. and science does have some facts.. but even they are subject to man's bent and bias! So as far as truth, for me it's the bible. Some folks may think that's pretty narrow, or ignorant or what not.. but I don't think so.. I just don't care about any of the rest of it.. Extra biblical that is.. Whether visions, or works of fiction.. or accounts of people.. "What is wheat to chaff?" (Hopefully that verse fits! :laughing7: Kind of popped into my head..)
:Peace2:
His Spirit is to lead us in all truth, and He still does speak to us. Not that it will contradict it, but add to it(note that I don't mean an extra set of Scriptures lol. Mainly as another witness.) It is the glory of kings to search out these matters. :2c:
Quote from: MusicLover123 on October 15, 2018, 11:13:20 PM
His Spirit is to lead us in all truth, and He still does speak to us. Not that it will contradict it, but add to it(note that I don't mean an extra set of Scriptures lol. Mainly as another witness.) It is the glory of kings to search out these matters. :2c:
Agree that He still speaks to us.
That IMO is why we must test the spirits to see if they are from God.
Quote from: GodIsLove on October 15, 2018, 06:28:00 PM
While I'm still unsure about the nature of evil forces, I think they exist in some capacity, and I think we can invite or expel them with how we live our lives similar to the law of attraction. Whether it's sentient beings or just forces or spirits or what I don't know yet.
However things like this story don't ring true to me.
One: isn't witchcraft and sorcery the same thing?
Two: why does he give the evil spirits a choice in where they go and where is the biblical support that they will go to either place at this time? Mostly Jesus just told them to leave except when legion asked to go into pigs.
Three: you can command parasites to leave?
Maybe he's just more in the know than me, I'll try to keep myself humble, but I'm just confused by the account.
1. Witchcraft and sorcery sure sound the same to me. One person says witches and sorcerers are different:
Witches vs. Sorcerers: What's the Difference?
https://multoghost.wordpress.com/2015/08/18/witches-vs-sorcerers-whats-the-difference/
2. I wouldn't give demons I'm expelling a choice. I'd send them to Jesus, with instructions that they never bother another human ever again. Perhaps with a difficult-to-expel demon I might have to concede it an option as to where it'd go. On one occasion, demons begged Jesus not to send them to the abyss:
https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=abyss&qs_version=DLNT
Luke 8:31 And they were begging Him that He not command them to go into the abyss.
3. I'd think you can command parasites to leave, just as you can command cancer to leave.
Quote from: GodIsLove on October 16, 2018, 01:27:57 AM
Agree that He still speaks to us.
That IMO is why we must test the spirits to see if they are from God.
1 John 4 (KJV)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20John+4&version=KJV
1 Beloved, believe not every spirit,
but try the spirits whether they are of God:
because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God:
Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God:
and this is that spirit of antichrist,
whereof ye have heard that it should come;
and even now already is it in the world.
John 10 (KJV)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+10&version=KJV
1 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.
2 But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.
3 To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.
4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.
5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.
Quote from: CST on October 15, 2018, 02:36:38 PM
Yes, you recognising anything Steve Harmon says as authoritative.
One woman opened herself up to interaction with a sexual demon through an ungodly use of her imagination.
https://www.psychforums.com/delusional-disorder/topic52533.html
I am going to have an exorcism this week. Four years ago I began to have episodes of what can only be described as sex with a spirit. ....
Immortality: The Drew Lecture Delivered October 11, 1912
by Robert Henry Charles
https://archive.org/details/immortalitydrew00chargoog/page/n6
By adopting this conclusion we bring once more eschatology into harmony with Christian theology.
Quote from: GodIsLove on October 15, 2018, 06:28:00 PM
While I'm still unsure about the nature of evil forces, I think they exist in some capacity, and I think we can invite or expel them with how we live our lives similar to the law of attraction. Whether it's sentient beings or just forces or spirits or what I don't know yet.
However things like this story don't ring true to me.
One: isn't witchcraft and sorcery the same thing?
Two: why does he give the evil spirits a choice in where they go and where is the biblical support that they will go to either place at this time? Mostly Jesus just told them to leave except when legion asked to go into pigs.
Three: you can command parasites to leave?
Maybe he's just more in the know than me, I'll try to keep myself humble, but I'm just confused by the account.
As I said I lean much more towards non-conscious evil agency that conscious evil being:
1. I believe in witchcraft and sorcery least. Sometimes these people get surprises. Usually they are con artists and thieves.
2. One of my biggest objections, what happens to demons which aren't in possession of someone.
3. I think command probably isn't literal, that's my point
Quote from: DavidFord on October 16, 2018, 02:23:04 AM
Quote from: GodIsLove on October 15, 2018, 06:28:00 PM
While I'm still unsure about the nature of evil forces, I think they exist in some capacity, and I think we can invite or expel them with how we live our lives similar to the law of attraction. Whether it's sentient beings or just forces or spirits or what I don't know yet.
However things like this story don't ring true to me.
One: isn't witchcraft and sorcery the same thing?
Two: why does he give the evil spirits a choice in where they go and where is the biblical support that they will go to either place at this time? Mostly Jesus just told them to leave except when legion asked to go into pigs.
Three: you can command parasites to leave?
Maybe he's just more in the know than me, I'll try to keep myself humble, but I'm just confused by the account.
2. I wouldn't give demons I'm expelling a choice. I'd send them to Jesus, with instructions that they never bother another human ever again. Perhaps with a difficult-to-expel demon I might have to concede it an option as to where it'd go. On one occasion, demons begged Jesus not to send them to the abyss:
Ah, but the Bible suggests it's not that easy.
Quote from: DavidFord on October 16, 2018, 02:59:00 PM
Quote from: CST on October 15, 2018, 02:36:38 PM
Yes, you recognising anything Steve Harmon says as authoritative.
One woman opened herself up to interaction with a sexual demon through an ungodly use of her imagination.
https://www.psychforums.com/delusional-disorder/topic52533.html
I am going to have an exorcism this week. Four years ago I began to have episodes of what can only be described as sex with a spirit. ....
Ooh, an incubus! :laugh:
Quote
Immortality: The Drew Lecture Delivered October 11, 1912
by Robert Henry Charles
https://archive.org/details/immortalitydrew00chargoog/page/n6
Amen God became realized as “Father” .. a big difference. I believe Rev chapter 20 explains the resurrection at Jesus’ return, and the one “1000 years later of all the rest”.
I believe “dead” - “nekros” is “to lack life”. I believe Judgment Day / “the Judgment” occurs after the resurrection(s) [of all of course,Rev.20]. And it’s my belief Judgment Day equates to Day Of Atonement.
doa for the doa? / day of atonement for those who rise, initially, “still in their sins”?And because of the spacing of the Autumn holy days (Lev.23) I believe Day of Judgment/Atonement will last 500 years. ..Give or take a little to account for the uprising against Jerusalem of the Millennium, just before the 2nd resurrection. Oh dear I was trying to keep this very uncomplicated, but I’m somewhat compulsive I guess.
Quote from: CST on October 17, 2018, 01:00:19 PM
Ah, but the Bible suggests it's not that easy.
Which if any of the demon-expellings below seem "not that easy" to you?
spirit of infirmity behind a bent-over posture
Luke 13 (from Aramaic, based on Younan of peshi+ta.org, dukhrana.com)
Now while Yeshua [Jesus] taught on the Shabbata [Sabbath] in one of the assemblies, 11. there was there a woman who had a rukha [spirit] of infirmity eighteen years. And she was bent down and she was not able to straighten herself at all. 12. And Yeshua saw her and called her and said to her,
"Woman, you are freed from your infirmity."
13. And he placed his hand on her, and she straightened herself immediately and glorified Allaha [God].
daughter badly bothered by a demon (cf. Mt 15:21+)
Mark 7
25. For immediately a certain woman whose daughter had an unclean rukha [spirit] heard about him, and she came (and) fell before his feet. 26. Now that woman was kanapta [a heathen/ foreigner] from Phoenicia in Syria, and was entreating him to cast out the shada [demon] from her daughter. 27. And Yeshua said to her,
"First allow the children to be satisfied,
for it is not right to take the bread of the children
and throw it to the dogs."
28. But she answered and said to him, "Yes Mari [my lord, i.e. sir], even the dogs eat from under the tables the crumbs of the children."
29. Yeshua said to her,
"Because of this word (you said), go.
The shada [demon] has gone out from your daughter."
30. And she went to her house and found her daughter lying on a pallet, and shadah [her shada] was gone from her.
son with a spirit of muteness that also prompted hitting the ground, violent shaking, teeth-gnashing, foaming at the mouth, paralysis, and suicide attempts
Mark 9
17. And one from the crowd answered and said, "Malapna [Teacher], I brought my son to you because he has a rukha [spirit] that does not speak. 18. And whenever it overtakes him, it knocks him down and he foams (at the mouth) and gnashes his teeth and becomes paralyzed. And I asked your talmida [students/ disciples] to cast him out, and they were not able." 19. Yeshua answered and said to him,
"Oh generation that is not mahaymina [faithful]!
How long must I remain with you,
and how long must I endure you?
Bring him to me."
20. And they brought him to him and when the rukha [spirit] saw him, it knocked him down at once, and he fell on the ground and was violently shaken and he foamed (at the mouth). 21. And Yeshua asked his father,
"How long has it been since he has been this way?"
He said to him, "Since his youth, 22. and many times it has cast him into the fire and into the water to destroy him. But whatever you are able (to do), have compassion on me and help me!" 23. Yeshua said to him,
"If you are able to believe,
anything is possible to be,
for him who believes."
24. And at once the abba [father] of the boy cried out while mourning and said, "I believe, Mari [my lord, i.e. sir]. Help the lack of my faith!" 25. And when the people that saw Yeshua ran and gathered around him, he rebuked that unclean rukha [spirit] and said to him,
"Dumb rukha [spirit] that does not speak,
I command that you come out from him,
and never enter him again!"
26. And that shada [demon] cried out greatly, and he bruised him and came out. And he was like a dead man so that many said that, "He is dead!" 27. But Yeshua took him by his hand and raised him.
Paul expels a spirit of divination from a girl
Acts 16
16. And it happened that while we were going to the house of prayer, a certain maiden met up with us who had a rukha [spirit] of divination, and she made her masters much commerce by the divination that she was divining. 17. And she was following after Polous and after us, and she was crying out and said, "These men are the servants of Him-- of Allaha the exalted! And they preach to you the path of life!" 18. And thus she was doing many days. And Polous was angered and said to her-- to that rukha-- "I command you to depart from her in the name of Yeshua the Meshikha!"
And at that moment it departed. 19. And when her lords saw that the expectation of their trade had departed from her, they seized Polous and Shila and led them (and) brought them to the public square.
Quote from: CST on October 17, 2018, 01:00:19 PMAs I said I lean much more towards non-conscious evil agency that conscious evil being:
1. I believe in witchcraft and sorcery least. Sometimes these people get surprises. Usually they are con artists and thieves.
2. One of my biggest objections, what happens to demons which aren't in possession of someone.
3. I think command probably isn't literal, that's my point
"what happens to demons which aren't in possession of someone"
Mt 12 (from Aramaic, based on Younan), http://dukhrana.com
43-45. Now when an unclean rukha [spirit] goes out from a man,
it wanders in places that have no water in them,
and seeks rest, but does not find (it).
Then it says, 'I will return to my house from where I came out.'
And it comes (and) finds that it is empty and swept and orderly.
Then it will go (and) lead seven other rukha with it who are worse than it,
and they will enter and dwell in it,
and the end of the man will be worse than his beginning.
Like this, to this evil generation (it) will be."
"command probably isn't literal"
Mark 1 (from Aramaic)
23. And there was a man in their assembly in whom was an unclean rukha [spirit], and he cried out 24. and said, "What have we to do with you, Yeshua the Nasraya? Have you come to destroy us? I know who you are. You are the Holy One of Allaha!" And Yeshua rebuked him and said,
"Shut your mouth,
and come out from him!"
25. And the unclean rukha threw him down and cried out in a loud voice and came out of him. 27. And all of them were astonished and were asking each other and saying that, "What is this, and what is this new teaching? For with shultana [authority] he even commands unclean rukha, and they obey him!"
Quote from: DavidFord on October 18, 2018, 04:08:43 AM
Quote from: CST on October 17, 2018, 01:00:19 PMAs I said I lean much more towards non-conscious evil agency that conscious evil being:
1. I believe in witchcraft and sorcery least. Sometimes these people get surprises. Usually they are con artists and thieves.
2. One of my biggest objections, what happens to demons which aren't in possession of someone.
3. I think command probably isn't literal, that's my point
"what happens to demons which aren't in possession of someone"
Mt 12 (from Aramaic, based on Younan), http://dukhrana.com
43-45. Now when an unclean rukha [spirit] goes out from a man,
it wanders in places that have no water in them,
and seeks rest, but does not find (it).
Then it says, 'I will return to my house from where I came out.'
And it comes (and) finds that it is empty and swept and orderly.
Then it will go (and) lead seven other rukha with it who are worse than it,
and they will enter and dwell in it,
and the end of the man will be worse than his beginning.
Like this, to this evil generation (it) will be."
:laugh: You quote that and yet utterly fail to see my point. Well at least you've saved me some time. That passage and it's partner at Luke 11 is the only time the Bible actually gives any indication of the operation and behaviour of demons and yet it is so obviously a parable and yet you read it and quote it and yet you still can't see it.
Obviously a 'person' (here the demon's former home) is not literally a house in any proper sense. What sort of 'rest' is the demon meant to be seeking. I'd rather it found rest if it stopped bothering us. I suspect we're meant to read that demons are fundamentally restless beings. They exist to torment humans and don't really want rest in the sense we understand it.
So the demon doesn't find rest so it goes back, apparently without difficulty, to the person that was formerly possessed but had been, so we imagine, been exorcised. They seem to have been demon free for some time and the 'house' which here appears to represent inside the person is not, as you might expect, a filthy, rubbish-strewn ruin of the type likely to attract rats (demons might be comparable to rats in our imagination), no it's a clean, swept and tidy place that suggest the person has put some effort in it and tried to keep themselves clear of sin.
And the demon likes this and it goes off and finds, again without apparent difficultly, seven more demons that it would seem also have nowhere to be. And they come back and they enter this apparently clean and well kept house and "the end of the man will be worse than the beginning." Not at all what you would expect when your listening to stories about sinful women having sex with incubi.
But what I wanted to make clear that what you said " I wouldn't give demons I'm expelling a choice. I'd send them to Jesus, with instructions that they never bother another human ever again." isn't how it works. I'm sure everyone who was expelling demons would do this if they could but clearly according to this parable, and it is a parable, demons can't be sent away like that. They go away but then later they're able to come back again.
But, as I said, this is a parable. Jesus is addressing the scribes and Pharisees who have just falsely accused Him of have a demon He hasn't got. The scribes and Pharisees would seem to be the clean and empty houses the demons like so much. This would strongly suggest that it is self-righteousness the demons are attracted to and not particularly sinful ones, who, let's be honest are probably separated from God enough already.
Quote from: CST on October 17, 2018, 01:00:19 PM1. I believe in witchcraft and sorcery least. Sometimes these people get surprises. Usually they are con artists and thieves.
Do you think the account below is bogus?
Do you think that witch doctor: was a con artist? got lucky?
Derek Prince, _Blessing or Curse: You Can Choose_ (2006), 303pp. On 156-7:
The following account comes from a missionary friend of mine who has lived his whole life in Zambia, in central Africa, and is intimately acquainted with the languages and the customs of the people there.
"At a General Conference of Christians in our rural district of Zambia, the Holy Spirit had spoken a strong prophetic word calling for holiness in the Church. Many Christians were convicted of sin in their lives and had truly repented, confessing their sin and pleading for God's forgiveness. After the service, an elder from one of our remote village churches came to the preacher in tears, trembling all over, confessing to the terrible sin of murder through witchcraft. The elder told him that for some years he had been fighting with his fellow elder in the church who was senior to him. The situation had gotten so bad that he had decided to punish him by going to a local witch doctor and paying him to curse this other elder. The witch doctor had been happy to do so, especially as he knew that these men were supposed to be Christians. He asked for a large down payment, and then told the man to come back the following day.
When he returned, the elder found the witch doctor sitting under a tree with a mirror in his hand and a bowl of witchcraft medicine on the ground before him. The witch doctor then proceeded to sponge the medicine all over the mirror, and asked the elder to look carefully at the mirror and tell him what he could see. Startled, the elder saw the face of his fellow elder quite clearly. Whereupon the witch doctor took a razor blade and cut across the throat of the face reflected in the mirror. Immediately the mirror was covered in blood. The elder cried out, "You have killed him! I only asked you to curse him." The witch doctor replied with a chuckle, "I thought I would do the job properly whilst I was at it!" The elder hurried home. To his horror he learned that his fellow elder was indeed dead, having died mysteriously of a sudden hemorrhage. The elder was terrified of the consequences of his action, so he had kept quiet about it. Now the Holy Spirit had powerfully convicted him of his sin.
Fortunately for him, "where sin abounded, grace did much more abound." Through confession, repentance and faith in Jesus Christ, the man was not only brought to forgiveness and peace with God, but to the reality of the new birth."
Quote from: CST on October 17, 2018, 01:00:19 PM
Ooh, an incubus! :laugh:
Three women in a family reported being sexually molested by a demon. And they were _not_ laughing.
_Deliver Us from Evil: A New York City Cop Investigates the Supernatural_ by Ralph Sarchie and Lisa Collier Cool (2001), 356pp., 122-125.
https://www.amazon.com/Deliver-Us-Evil-Investigates-Supernatural/dp/1250059496/
Quote from: DavidFord on October 20, 2018, 09:16:22 PM
Quote from: CST on October 17, 2018, 01:00:19 PM1. I believe in witchcraft and sorcery least. Sometimes these people get surprises. Usually they are con artists and thieves.
Do you think the account below is bogus?
Do you think that witch doctor: was a con artist? got lucky?
Derek Prince, _Blessing or Curse: You Can Choose_ (2006), 303pp. On 156-7:
The following account comes from a missionary friend of mine who has lived his whole life in Zambia, in central Africa, and is intimately acquainted with the languages and the customs of the people there.
"At a General Conference of Christians in our rural district of Zambia, the Holy Spirit had spoken a strong prophetic word calling for holiness in the Church. Many Christians were convicted of sin in their lives and had truly repented, confessing their sin and pleading for God's forgiveness. After the service, an elder from one of our remote village churches came to the preacher in tears, trembling all over, confessing to the terrible sin of murder through witchcraft. The elder told him that for some years he had been fighting with his fellow elder in the church who was senior to him. The situation had gotten so bad that he had decided to punish him by going to a local witch doctor and paying him to curse this other elder. The witch doctor had been happy to do so, especially as he knew that these men were supposed to be Christians. He asked for a large down payment, and then told the man to come back the following day.
When he returned, the elder found the witch doctor sitting under a tree with a mirror in his hand and a bowl of witchcraft medicine on the ground before him. The witch doctor then proceeded to sponge the medicine all over the mirror, and asked the elder to look carefully at the mirror and tell him what he could see. Startled, the elder saw the face of his fellow elder quite clearly. Whereupon the witch doctor took a razor blade and cut across the throat of the face reflected in the mirror. Immediately the mirror was covered in blood. The elder cried out, "You have killed him! I only asked you to curse him." The witch doctor replied with a chuckle, "I thought I would do the job properly whilst I was at it!" The elder hurried home. To his horror he learned that his fellow elder was indeed dead, having died mysteriously of a sudden hemorrhage. The elder was terrified of the consequences of his action, so he had kept quiet about it. Now the Holy Spirit had powerfully convicted him of his sin.
Fortunately for him, "where sin abounded, grace did much more abound." Through confession, repentance and faith in Jesus Christ, the man was not only brought to forgiveness and peace with God, but to the reality of the new birth."
Neither I think Derek Prince is either deceived or deceiving.
Quote from: DavidFord on October 20, 2018, 11:38:39 PM
Quote from: CST on October 17, 2018, 01:00:19 PM
Ooh, an incubus! :laugh:
Three women in a family reported being sexually molested by a demon. And they were _not_ laughing.
_Deliver Us from Evil: A New York City Cop Investigates the Supernatural_ by Ralph Sarchie and Lisa Collier Cool (2001), 356pp., 122-125.
https://www.amazon.com/Deliver-Us-Evil-Investigates-Supernatural/dp/1250059496/
I'm laughing because the idea of incubi and succubi are quite obviously ridiculous and not remotely supported by the Bible. If a demon can possess someone then having sex with them, apparently by consent as your reports seem to to be describing, it is small fry for their purposes..
Quote from: CST on October 22, 2018, 11:49:24 AM
Neither I think Derek Prince is either deceived or deceiving.
Do you think Jindal "is either deceived or deceiving"?
Bobby Jindal, "Beating a Demon: Physical Dimensions of Spiritual Warfare" _New Oxford Review_ (Dec 1994)
http://www.demon-slayer.org/the-bobby-jindal-exorcism-full-text/
In a voice I had never heard before or since, Susan accused me: "Bobby, you cannot even love Susan." Before I even noticed the sound of her voice, I thought it funny that Susan would refer to herself in the third person. .... Knowing that I was doing Susan no good, I quickly retreated to the opposite side of the room. Susan proceeded to denounce every individual in the room, often citing very private and confidential information she could not possibly have known on her own. It was information capable of hurting individuals — attacking people, as she did, by revealing their hidden feelings, fears, and worries.
If he believes in demons, yes and so may Susan be. It easy to say, information she couldn't possibly have known on her own but that's not entirely provable. Fraudulent mediums (or mediums as they're usually called) have means of extracting the information they think you want to hear and you imagine there's no way you could possibly have known it when they actually tricked you into giving it to them. There are many possible explanations for this that doesn't mean a demon was involved but Susan was probably in contact with some form of evil.
Quote from: CST on October 24, 2018, 11:30:07 AM
If he believes in demons, yes
So you think Jindal "is either deceived or deceiving" "if he believes in demons."
Which if any of these individuals believed in the existence of demons?:
Matthew. Mark. Luke. John. Jesus. Paul. James.
In the NT, do you think "unclean spirit" is the same thing as "demon"?
/////////////////////////////////////////////
"demon" in HCSB
https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=demon&qs_version=HCSB&limit=500
Leviticus 17:7 They must no longer offer their sacrifices to the goat-demons that they have prostituted themselves with. This will be a permanent statute for them throughout their generations.
Deuteronomy 32:17 They sacrificed to demons, not God, to gods they had not known, new gods that had just arrived, which your fathers did not fear.
2 Chronicles 11:15 Jeroboam appointed his own priests for the high places, the goat-demons, and the golden calves he had made.
Psalm 106:37 They sacrificed their sons and daughters to demons.
Matthew 4:24 Then the news about Him spread throughout Syria. So they brought to Him all those who were afflicted, those suffering from various diseases and intense pains, the demon-possessed, the epileptics, and the paralytics. And He healed them.
Matthew 8:16 When evening came, they brought to Him many who were demon-possessed. He drove out the spirits with a word and healed all who were sick,
Matthew 8:28 When He had come to the other side, to the region of the Gadarenes, two demon-possessed men met Him as they came out of the tombs. They were so violent that no one could pass that way.
Matthew 8:31 "If You drive us out," the demons begged Him, "send us into the herd of pigs."
Matthew 8:33 Then the men who tended them fled. They went into the city and reported everything-especially what had happened to those who were demon-possessed.
Matthew 9:32-33 Just as they were going out, a demon-possessed man who was unable to speak was brought to Him. When the demon had been driven out, the man spoke. And the crowds were amazed, saying, "Nothing like this has ever been seen in Israel!"
Matthew 10:8 Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse those with skin diseases, drive out demons. You have received free of charge; give free of charge.
Matthew 12:22 Then a demon-possessed man who was blind and unable to speak was brought to Him. He healed him, so that the man could both speak and see.
Matthew 12:28 If I drive out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come to you.
Matthew 15:22 Just then a Canaanite woman from that region came and kept crying out, "Have mercy on me, Lord, Son of David! My daughter is cruelly tormented by a demon."
Matthew 17:18 Then Jesus rebuked the demon, and it came out of him, and from that moment the boy was healed.
Mark 1:32 When evening came, after the sun had set, they began bringing to Him all those who were sick and those who were demon-possessed.
Mark 1:34 and He healed many who were sick with various diseases and drove out many demons. But He would not permit the demons to speak, because they knew Him.
Mark 1:39 So He went into all of Galilee, preaching in their synagogues and driving out demons.
Mark 3:14-15 He also appointed 12-- He also named them apostles-- to be with Him, to send them out to preach, and to have authority to drive out demons.
Mark 5:12 The demons begged Him, "Send us to the pigs, so we may enter them."
Mark 5:15 They came to Jesus and saw the man who had been demon-possessed by the legion, sitting there, dressed and in his right mind; and they were afraid.
Mark 5:16 The eyewitnesses described to them what had happened to the demon-possessed man and told about the pigs.
Mark 5:18 As He was getting into the boat, the man who had been demon-possessed kept begging Him to be with Him.
Mark 6:13 And they were driving out many demons, anointing many sick people with olive oil, and healing them.
Mark 7:26 Now the woman was Greek, a Syrophoenician by birth, and she kept asking Him to drive the demon out of her daughter.
Mark 7:29 Then He told her, "Because of this reply, you may go. The demon has gone out of your daughter."
Mark 7:30 When she went back to her home, she found her child lying on the bed, and the demon was gone.
Mark 9:38 John said to Him, "Teacher, we saw someone driving out demons in Your name, and we tried to stop him because he wasn't following us."
Mark 16:9 Early on the first day of the week, after He had risen, He appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom He had driven seven demons.
Mark 16:17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: In My name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new languages;
Luke 4:33 In the synagogue there was a man with an unclean demonic spirit who cried out with a loud voice,
Luke 4:35 But Jesus rebuked him and said, "Be quiet and come out of him!" And throwing him down before them, the demon came out of him without hurting him at all.
Luke 4:41 Also, demons were coming out of many, shouting and saying, "You are the Son of God!" But He rebuked them and would not allow them to speak, because they knew He was the Messiah.
Luke 8:2 and also some women who had been healed of evil spirits and sicknesses: Mary, called Magdalene (seven demons had come out of her);
Luke 8:27 When He got out on land, a demon-possessed man from the town met Him. For a long time he had worn no clothes and did not stay in a house but in the tombs.
Luke 8:29 For He had commanded the unclean spirit to come out of the man. Many times it had seized him, and though he was guarded, bound by chains and shackles, he would snap the restraints and be driven by the demon into deserted places.
Luke 8:30 "What is your name?" Jesus asked him. "Legion," he said-because many demons had entered him.
Luke 8:32-33 A large herd of pigs was there, feeding on the hillside. The demons begged Him to permit them to enter the pigs, and He gave them permission. The demons came out of the man and entered the pigs, and the herd rushed down the steep bank into the lake and drowned.
Luke 8:35 Then people went out to see what had happened. They came to Jesus and found the man the demons had departed from, sitting at Jesus' feet, dressed and in his right mind. And they were afraid.
Luke 8:36 Meanwhile, the eyewitnesses reported to them how the demon-possessed man was delivered.
Luke 8:38 The man from whom the demons had departed kept begging Him to be with Him. But He sent him away and said,
Luke 9:1 Summoning the Twelve, He gave them power and authority over all the demons, and power to heal diseases.
Luke 9:42 As the boy was still approaching, the demon knocked him down and threw him into severe convulsions. But Jesus rebuked the unclean spirit, cured the boy, and gave him back to his father.
Luke 9:49 John responded, "Master, we saw someone driving out demons in Your name, and we tried to stop him because he does not follow us."
Luke 10:17 The Seventy returned with joy, saying, "Lord, even the demons submit to us in Your name."
Luke 11:14 Now He was driving out a demon that was mute. When the demon came out, the man who had been mute, spoke, and the crowds were amazed.
Luke 11:20 If I drive out demons by the finger of God, then the kingdom of God has come to you.
Luke 13:32 He said to them, "Go tell that fox, 'Look! I'm driving out demons and performing healings today and tomorrow, and on the third day I will complete My work.'
John 8:49 "I do not have a demon," Jesus answered. "On the contrary, I honor My Father and you dishonor Me.
1 Corinthians 10:20 No, but I do say that what they sacrifice, they sacrifice to demons and not to God. I do not want you to participate with demons!
1 Corinthians 10:21 You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons. You cannot share in the Lord's table and the table of demons.
1 Timothy 4:1 Now the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will depart from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and the teachings of demons,
James 2:19 You believe that God is one; you do well. The demons also believe-and they shudder.
James 3:15 Such wisdom does not come from above but is earthly, unspiritual, demonic.
Revelation 9:20 The rest of the people, who were not killed by these plagues, did not repent of the works of their hands to stop worshiping demons and idols of gold, silver, bronze, stone, and wood, which are not able to see, hear, or walk.
Revelation 16:14 For they are spirits of demons performing signs, who travel to the kings of the whole world to assemble them for the battle of the great day of God, the Almighty.
Revelation 18:2 He cried in a mighty voice: It has fallen, Babylon the Great has fallen! She has become a dwelling for demons, a haunt for every unclean spirit, a haunt for every unclean bird, and a haunt for every unclean and despicable beast.
/////////////////////////////////////////////
"unclean spirit" in HCSB
https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=%22unclean+spirit%22&qs_version=HCSB
Matthew 10:1 Summoning His 12 disciples, He gave them authority over unclean spirits, to drive them out and to heal every disease and sickness.
Matthew 12:43 "When an unclean spirit comes out of a man, it roams through waterless places looking for rest but doesn't find any.
Mark 1:23 Just then a man with an unclean spirit was in their synagogue. He cried out,
Mark 1:26 And the unclean spirit convulsed him, shouted with a loud voice, and came out of him.
Mark 1:27 Then they were all amazed, so they began to argue with one another, saying, "What is this? A new teaching with authority! He commands even the unclean spirits, and they obey Him."
Mark 3:11 Whenever the unclean spirits saw Him, those possessed fell down before Him and cried out, "You are the Son of God!"
Mark 5:2 As soon as He got out of the boat, a man with an unclean spirit came out of the tombs and met Him.
Mark 5:8 For He had told him, "Come out of the man, you unclean spirit!"
Mark 5:13 And He gave them permission. Then the unclean spirits came out and entered the pigs, and the herd of about 2,000 rushed down the steep bank into the sea and drowned there.
Mark 6:7 He summoned the Twelve and began to send them out in pairs and gave them authority over unclean spirits.
Mark 7:25 Instead, immediately after hearing about Him, a woman whose little daughter had an unclean spirit came and fell at His feet.
Mark 9:25 When Jesus saw that a crowd was rapidly coming together, He rebuked the unclean spirit, saying to it, "You mute and deaf spirit, I command you: come out of him and never enter him again!"
Luke 4:36 Amazement came over them all, and they kept saying to one another, "What is this message? For He commands the unclean spirits with authority and power, and they come out!"
Luke 6:18 They came to hear Him and to be healed of their diseases; and those tormented by unclean spirits were made well.
Luke 8:29 For He had commanded the unclean spirit to come out of the man. Many times it had seized him, and though he was guarded, bound by chains and shackles, he would snap the restraints and be driven by the demon into deserted places.
Luke 9:42 As the boy was still approaching, the demon knocked him down and threw him into severe convulsions. But Jesus rebuked the unclean spirit, cured the boy, and gave him back to his father.
Luke 11:24 "When an unclean spirit comes out of a man, it roams through waterless places looking for rest, and not finding rest, it then says, 'I'll go back to my house where I came from.'
Acts 5:16 In addition, a large group came together from the towns surrounding Jerusalem, bringing sick people and those who were tormented by unclean spirits, and they were all healed.
Acts 8:7 For unclean spirits, crying out with a loud voice, came out of many who were possessed, and many who were paralyzed and lame were healed.
Revelation 16:13 Then I saw three unclean spirits like frogs coming from the dragon's mouth, from the beast's mouth, and from the mouth of the false prophet.
Revelation 18:2 He cried in a mighty voice: It has fallen, Babylon the Great has fallen! She has become a dwelling for demons, a haunt for every unclean spirit, a haunt for every unclean bird, and a haunt for every unclean and despicable beast.
Quote from: DavidFord on October 25, 2018, 02:04:43 AM
Quote from: CST on October 24, 2018, 11:30:07 AM
If he believes in demons, yes
So you think Jindal "is either deceived or deceiving" "if he believes in demons."
Which if any of these individuals believed in the existence of demons?:
Matthew. Mark. Luke. John. Jesus. Paul. James.
In the NT, do you think "unclean spirit" is the same thing as "demon"?
/////////////////////////////////////////////
"demon" in HCSB
https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=demon&qs_version=HCSB&limit=500
Leviticus 17:7 They must no longer offer their sacrifices to the goat-demons that they have prostituted themselves with. This will be a permanent statute for them throughout their generations.
Deuteronomy 32:17 They sacrificed to demons, not God, to gods they had not known, new gods that had just arrived, which your fathers did not fear.
2 Chronicles 11:15 Jeroboam appointed his own priests for the high places, the goat-demons, and the golden calves he had made.
Psalm 106:37 They sacrificed their sons and daughters to demons.
Matthew 4:24 Then the news about Him spread throughout Syria. So they brought to Him all those who were afflicted, those suffering from various diseases and intense pains, the demon-possessed, the epileptics, and the paralytics. And He healed them.
Matthew 8:16 When evening came, they brought to Him many who were demon-possessed. He drove out the spirits with a word and healed all who were sick,
Matthew 8:28 When He had come to the other side, to the region of the Gadarenes, two demon-possessed men met Him as they came out of the tombs. They were so violent that no one could pass that way.
Matthew 8:31 "If You drive us out," the demons begged Him, "send us into the herd of pigs."
Matthew 8:33 Then the men who tended them fled. They went into the city and reported everything-especially what had happened to those who were demon-possessed.
Matthew 9:32-33 Just as they were going out, a demon-possessed man who was unable to speak was brought to Him. When the demon had been driven out, the man spoke. And the crowds were amazed, saying, "Nothing like this has ever been seen in Israel!"
Matthew 10:8 Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse those with skin diseases, drive out demons. You have received free of charge; give free of charge.
Matthew 12:22 Then a demon-possessed man who was blind and unable to speak was brought to Him. He healed him, so that the man could both speak and see.
Matthew 12:28 If I drive out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come to you.
Matthew 15:22 Just then a Canaanite woman from that region came and kept crying out, "Have mercy on me, Lord, Son of David! My daughter is cruelly tormented by a demon."
Matthew 17:18 Then Jesus rebuked the demon, and it came out of him, and from that moment the boy was healed.
Mark 1:32 When evening came, after the sun had set, they began bringing to Him all those who were sick and those who were demon-possessed.
Mark 1:34 and He healed many who were sick with various diseases and drove out many demons. But He would not permit the demons to speak, because they knew Him.
Mark 1:39 So He went into all of Galilee, preaching in their synagogues and driving out demons.
Mark 3:14-15 He also appointed 12-- He also named them apostles-- to be with Him, to send them out to preach, and to have authority to drive out demons.
Mark 5:12 The demons begged Him, "Send us to the pigs, so we may enter them."
Mark 5:15 They came to Jesus and saw the man who had been demon-possessed by the legion, sitting there, dressed and in his right mind; and they were afraid.
Mark 5:16 The eyewitnesses described to them what had happened to the demon-possessed man and told about the pigs.
Mark 5:18 As He was getting into the boat, the man who had been demon-possessed kept begging Him to be with Him.
Mark 6:13 And they were driving out many demons, anointing many sick people with olive oil, and healing them.
Mark 7:26 Now the woman was Greek, a Syrophoenician by birth, and she kept asking Him to drive the demon out of her daughter.
Mark 7:29 Then He told her, "Because of this reply, you may go. The demon has gone out of your daughter."
Mark 7:30 When she went back to her home, she found her child lying on the bed, and the demon was gone.
Mark 9:38 John said to Him, "Teacher, we saw someone driving out demons in Your name, and we tried to stop him because he wasn't following us."
Mark 16:9 Early on the first day of the week, after He had risen, He appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom He had driven seven demons.
Mark 16:17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: In My name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new languages;
Luke 4:33 In the synagogue there was a man with an unclean demonic spirit who cried out with a loud voice,
Luke 4:35 But Jesus rebuked him and said, "Be quiet and come out of him!" And throwing him down before them, the demon came out of him without hurting him at all.
Luke 4:41 Also, demons were coming out of many, shouting and saying, "You are the Son of God!" But He rebuked them and would not allow them to speak, because they knew He was the Messiah.
Luke 8:2 and also some women who had been healed of evil spirits and sicknesses: Mary, called Magdalene (seven demons had come out of her);
Luke 8:27 When He got out on land, a demon-possessed man from the town met Him. For a long time he had worn no clothes and did not stay in a house but in the tombs.
Luke 8:29 For He had commanded the unclean spirit to come out of the man. Many times it had seized him, and though he was guarded, bound by chains and shackles, he would snap the restraints and be driven by the demon into deserted places.
Luke 8:30 "What is your name?" Jesus asked him. "Legion," he said-because many demons had entered him.
Luke 8:32-33 A large herd of pigs was there, feeding on the hillside. The demons begged Him to permit them to enter the pigs, and He gave them permission. The demons came out of the man and entered the pigs, and the herd rushed down the steep bank into the lake and drowned.
Luke 8:35 Then people went out to see what had happened. They came to Jesus and found the man the demons had departed from, sitting at Jesus' feet, dressed and in his right mind. And they were afraid.
Luke 8:36 Meanwhile, the eyewitnesses reported to them how the demon-possessed man was delivered.
Luke 8:38 The man from whom the demons had departed kept begging Him to be with Him. But He sent him away and said,
Luke 9:1 Summoning the Twelve, He gave them power and authority over all the demons, and power to heal diseases.
Luke 9:42 As the boy was still approaching, the demon knocked him down and threw him into severe convulsions. But Jesus rebuked the unclean spirit, cured the boy, and gave him back to his father.
Luke 9:49 John responded, "Master, we saw someone driving out demons in Your name, and we tried to stop him because he does not follow us."
Luke 10:17 The Seventy returned with joy, saying, "Lord, even the demons submit to us in Your name."
Luke 11:14 Now He was driving out a demon that was mute. When the demon came out, the man who had been mute, spoke, and the crowds were amazed.
Luke 11:20 If I drive out demons by the finger of God, then the kingdom of God has come to you.
Luke 13:32 He said to them, "Go tell that fox, 'Look! I'm driving out demons and performing healings today and tomorrow, and on the third day I will complete My work.'
John 8:49 "I do not have a demon," Jesus answered. "On the contrary, I honor My Father and you dishonor Me.
1 Corinthians 10:20 No, but I do say that what they sacrifice, they sacrifice to demons and not to God. I do not want you to participate with demons!
1 Corinthians 10:21 You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons. You cannot share in the Lord's table and the table of demons.
1 Timothy 4:1 Now the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will depart from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and the teachings of demons,
James 2:19 You believe that God is one; you do well. The demons also believe-and they shudder.
James 3:15 Such wisdom does not come from above but is earthly, unspiritual, demonic.
Revelation 9:20 The rest of the people, who were not killed by these plagues, did not repent of the works of their hands to stop worshiping demons and idols of gold, silver, bronze, stone, and wood, which are not able to see, hear, or walk.
Revelation 16:14 For they are spirits of demons performing signs, who travel to the kings of the whole world to assemble them for the battle of the great day of God, the Almighty.
Revelation 18:2 He cried in a mighty voice: It has fallen, Babylon the Great has fallen! She has become a dwelling for demons, a haunt for every unclean spirit, a haunt for every unclean bird, and a haunt for every unclean and despicable beast.
/////////////////////////////////////////////
"unclean spirit" in HCSB
https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=%22unclean+spirit%22&qs_version=HCSB
Matthew 10:1 Summoning His 12 disciples, He gave them authority over unclean spirits, to drive them out and to heal every disease and sickness.
Matthew 12:43 "When an unclean spirit comes out of a man, it roams through waterless places looking for rest but doesn't find any.
Mark 1:23 Just then a man with an unclean spirit was in their synagogue. He cried out,
Mark 1:26 And the unclean spirit convulsed him, shouted with a loud voice, and came out of him.
Mark 1:27 Then they were all amazed, so they began to argue with one another, saying, "What is this? A new teaching with authority! He commands even the unclean spirits, and they obey Him."
Mark 3:11 Whenever the unclean spirits saw Him, those possessed fell down before Him and cried out, "You are the Son of God!"
Mark 5:2 As soon as He got out of the boat, a man with an unclean spirit came out of the tombs and met Him.
Mark 5:8 For He had told him, "Come out of the man, you unclean spirit!"
Mark 5:13 And He gave them permission. Then the unclean spirits came out and entered the pigs, and the herd of about 2,000 rushed down the steep bank into the sea and drowned there.
Mark 6:7 He summoned the Twelve and began to send them out in pairs and gave them authority over unclean spirits.
Mark 7:25 Instead, immediately after hearing about Him, a woman whose little daughter had an unclean spirit came and fell at His feet.
Mark 9:25 When Jesus saw that a crowd was rapidly coming together, He rebuked the unclean spirit, saying to it, "You mute and deaf spirit, I command you: come out of him and never enter him again!"
Luke 4:36 Amazement came over them all, and they kept saying to one another, "What is this message? For He commands the unclean spirits with authority and power, and they come out!"
Luke 6:18 They came to hear Him and to be healed of their diseases; and those tormented by unclean spirits were made well.
Luke 8:29 For He had commanded the unclean spirit to come out of the man. Many times it had seized him, and though he was guarded, bound by chains and shackles, he would snap the restraints and be driven by the demon into deserted places.
Luke 9:42 As the boy was still approaching, the demon knocked him down and threw him into severe convulsions. But Jesus rebuked the unclean spirit, cured the boy, and gave him back to his father.
Luke 11:24 "When an unclean spirit comes out of a man, it roams through waterless places looking for rest, and not finding rest, it then says, 'I'll go back to my house where I came from.'
Acts 5:16 In addition, a large group came together from the towns surrounding Jerusalem, bringing sick people and those who were tormented by unclean spirits, and they were all healed.
Acts 8:7 For unclean spirits, crying out with a loud voice, came out of many who were possessed, and many who were paralyzed and lame were healed.
Revelation 16:13 Then I saw three unclean spirits like frogs coming from the dragon's mouth, from the beast's mouth, and from the mouth of the false prophet.
Revelation 18:2 He cried in a mighty voice: It has fallen, Babylon the Great has fallen! She has become a dwelling for demons, a haunt for every unclean spirit, a haunt for every unclean bird, and a haunt for every unclean and despicable beast.
They believed in something that the word 'demons' represents, and you believe in Satan if you're right then somewhere along the line they definitely are or have been deceived.
To be fair these people you're quoting may be using the same model and only you are deceived because you take it literally.
Quote from: CST on October 25, 2018, 11:52:10 AM
Quote from: DavidFord on October 25, 2018, 02:04:43 AM
Quote from: CST on October 24, 2018, 11:30:07 AM
If he believes in demons, yes
So you think Jindal "is either deceived or deceiving" "if he believes in demons."
Which if any of these individuals believed in the existence of demons?:
Matthew. Mark. Luke. John. Jesus. Paul. James.
In the NT, do you think "unclean spirit" is the same thing as "demon"?
/////////////////////////////////////////////
"demon" in HCSB
https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=demon&qs_version=HCSB&limit=500
....
/////////////////////////////////////////////
"unclean spirit" in HCSB
https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=%22unclean+spirit%22&qs_version=HCSB
....
They believed in something that the word 'demons' represents, and you believe in Satan if you're right then somewhere along the line they definitely are or have been deceived.
To be fair these people you're quoting may be using the same model and only you are deceived because you take it literally.
So you think "they believed in something that the word 'demons' represents," and you think demons don't exist, so therefore Jesus was deceived about demons, in your estimation. What are some other things you think Jesus was deceived about, besides demons?
https://www.anewdaydawning.com/blog-1/2017/9/27/what-are-demons-part-1
https://www.anewdaydawning.com/blog-1/2017/9/27/why-didnt-jesus-explain-demons-what-are-demons-part-2
https://www.anewdaydawning.com/blog-1/2017/10/26/what-exactly-goes-bump-in-the-night-what-are-demons-part-3
I've been reading this blogger, he's a Christian universalist and a convincing preterist and I am already leaning toward that view from my own searching...and I'm now reading his series on demons. Just sharing if anyone is interested, as he goes into a lot of history and scripture.
Quote from: DavidFord on October 26, 2018, 06:04:35 AM
Quote from: CST on October 25, 2018, 11:52:10 AM
Quote from: DavidFord on October 25, 2018, 02:04:43 AM
Quote from: CST on October 24, 2018, 11:30:07 AM
If he believes in demons, yes
So you think Jindal "is either deceived or deceiving" "if he believes in demons."
Which if any of these individuals believed in the existence of demons?:
Matthew. Mark. Luke. John. Jesus. Paul. James.
In the NT, do you think "unclean spirit" is the same thing as "demon"?
/////////////////////////////////////////////
"demon" in HCSB
https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=demon&qs_version=HCSB&limit=500
....
/////////////////////////////////////////////
"unclean spirit" in HCSB
https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=%22unclean+spirit%22&qs_version=HCSB
....
They believed in something that the word 'demons' represents, and you believe in Satan if you're right then somewhere along the line they definitely are or have been deceived.
To be fair these people you're quoting may be using the same model and only you are deceived because you take it literally.
So you think "they believed in something that the word 'demons' represents," and you think demons don't exist, so therefore Jesus was deceived about demons, in your estimation. What are some other things you think Jesus was deceived about, besides demons?
Deceived is generally a strong word used carefully it doesn't mean much, used frequently it sounds more problematic. Jesus presumably believed the Genesis creation myth and not in evolution of life, geology and geography. He believed that Moses wrote the first five books of the Bible, I share this belief actually. But I think at least as possible, if not more so, He was fully aware these beliefs were incorrect but felt it would be distracting and less than constructive to correct the wider populace in these belief. Or the Father did which is why He continued to withhold that particular information from His Son once He had 'emptied Himself'.
Quote from: CST on October 27, 2018, 02:20:40 PM
Quote from: DavidFord on October 26, 2018, 06:04:35 AM
So you think "they believed in something that the word 'demons' represents," and you think demons don't exist, so therefore Jesus was deceived about demons, in your estimation. What are some other things you think Jesus was deceived about, besides demons?
Deceived is generally a strong word used carefully it doesn't mean much, used frequently it sounds more problematic. Jesus presumably believed the Genesis creation myth and not in evolution of life, geology and geography. He believed that Moses wrote the first five books of the Bible, I share this belief actually. But I think at least as possible, if not more so, He was fully aware these beliefs were incorrect but felt it would be distracting and less than constructive to correct the wider populace in these belief. Or the Father did which is why He continued to withhold that particular information from His Son once He had 'emptied Himself'.
"Jesus presumably believed the Genesis creation myth"
What leads you to conclude that "the Genesis creation myth" is a "myth"?
"Jesus presumably believed... not in evolution of life"
'Evolution' has numerous definitions. Meaning there of [CST]"evolution"?
Do you think Jesus was involved in the creation of: matter-energy? biology?
"I think at least as possible, if not more so, He was fully aware these beliefs were incorrect"
Do you think Jesus believed things that Jesus believed "were incorrect"?
Quote from: GodIsLove on October 26, 2018, 04:55:03 PM
https://www.anewdaydawning.com/blog-1/2017/9/27/what-are-demons-part-1
https://www.anewdaydawning.com/blog-1/2017/9/27/what-are-demons-part-1
So let's go ahead and state the obvious. The Christian Bible does often use the word demon. Jesus cast/drove out demons. He commissioned those disciples (notice who he was speaking to... them not us) to cast out demons.
Jesus commissioning others to expel demons: the 12, the 70, and later generations of Christians
Mt 10:1, 8
And he called (on) his twelve talmida [students/disciples] and gave them shultana [authority] over unclean rukha [spirits], that they may cast them out, and to heal every affliction and disease. .... Heal the sick and cleanse the lepers and cast out deewa [demons]. Freely you have received, freely give.
Mk 6
7 And he called his twelve and began to send them two by two, and he gave them shultana over unclean rukha to cast (them) out. .... 12. And they went out and preached that (men) should repent. 13. And many shada [demons] were cast out, and they were anointing many (who were) sick with oil and they were healing them.
Lk 9
1. And Yeshua called his twelve and gave to them power and shultana [authority] over all shada and to heal sickness. 2. And he sent them to preach the Kingdom of Allaha and to heal the sick. .... 6. And the Shelikha [sent ones/ Apostles] departed and were going around in the villages and in the medintha [cities] and were preaching hope and healing in every place.
Lk 10
1. After these things, Yeshua appointed seventy from his other talmida [students/ disciples] and sent them two by two before his face to all regions and medintha that he was about to go (to). 2. And he said to them, ....
3. Go! Behold, I send you as sheep among wolves. ....
8. And into whatever medintha [city] that you enter,
and they receive you,
eat whatever that they set before you.
9. And heal those who are ill in it and say to them,
'The Kingdom of Allaha is (drawing) near to you.' ....
17. And those seventy whom he had sent returned with great joy and said to him, "Maran, even shada were subject to us by your name!" 18. And he said to them,
"I did see him, Satana, falling like lightning from heaven.
19. Behold, I give shultana [authority] to you
to be tread(ing) on snakes and scorpions and all the power of the enemy,
and nothing will harm you.
20. Nevertheless, do not rejoice in this, that shada are subject to you,
rather be glad that your names are written in heaven."
Mt 28
18. And Yeshua drew near and spoke with them and said to them,
"All shultana [authority] in heaven and on earth is given to me.
And as Abbi [my Father] has sent me,
I send you.
19. Go therefore (and) make talmida (of) all nations,
and baptize them in the name (of) Abba [the Father] and (of) the Son and (of) the Rukha d'Qudsha [Spirit of Holiness].
20. And teach them to keep all that I have commanded you.
And behold, I (am) with you all the days until the end of the ailma [world]."
Amain.
John 14
12. Amain, amain I say to you that,
whoever believes in me,
these works that I do,
he will do also,
and will do more than these,
because I go to Abba [the Father].
13. And whatever you ask in my name,
I will do for you,
that Abba might be glorified by His Son.
14. And if you ask of me in my name,
I will do it.
15. If you love me,
keep my commandments.
Mk 16
15. And he said to them,
"Go into all the ailma [world] and preach
my Sebartha [message of hope/ good news] to all of creation.
16. Whoever believes and is baptized will live,
and whoever does not believe will be condemned.
17. And these signs will follow those who believe in my name:
they will cast out shada
and they will speak in new tongues,
18. and they will handle serpents,
and if they should drink a deadly poison it will not harm them.
And they will place their hands on the sick,
and they will be healed."
Quote from: GodIsLove on October 26, 2018, 04:55:03 PM
he's a Christian universalist...and I'm now reading his series on demons
https://www.anewdaydawning.com/blog-1/2017/9/27/why-didnt-jesus-explain-demons-what-are-demons-part-2
In the very well researched work by Duncan Heaster called The Real Devil, he notes...
"When we read in Acts 8:7 of unclean spirits crying out, the Eastern (Aramaic) text reads: "Many who were mentally afflicted cried out". This is because, according to George Lamsa, ""Unclean spirits" is an Aramaic term used to describe lunatics" (3). It should be noted that Lamsa was a native Aramaic speaker with a fine understanding of Aramaic terms. He grew up in a remote part of Kurdistan which had maintained the Aramaic language almost unchanged since the time of Jesus. It's significant that Lamsa's extensive writings indicate that he failed to see in the teachings of Jesus and Paul any support for the popular conception of the devil and demons- he insisted that the Semitic and Aramaic terms used by them have been misunderstood by Western readers and misused in order to lend support for their conceptions of a personal devil and demons."
Lamsa's prejudice against the supernatural warped his translation of the NT. Thus for Acts 8:7, Lamsa speaks of people "mentally afflicted" instead of those oppressed by "unclean spirits."
Acts 8:7, http://dukhrana.com
(Etheridge) For many whom unclean spirits possessed cried with a high voice, and they came out from them; and others, palsied and lame, were healed:
(Murdock) For many who were possessed by unclean spirits, cried with a loud voice, and came out of them: and others, who were paralytic and lame, were healed.
(Lamsa) Many who were mentally afflicted, cried with loud voices and were restored; and others who were paralytic and lame, were healed.
(KJV) For unclean spirits, crying with loud voice, came out of many that were possessed with them: and many taken with palsies, and that were lame, were healed.
Quote from: GodIsLove on October 26, 2018, 04:55:03 PM
he goes into a lot of history and scripture
I'm not noticing "a lot of... scripture." Or history, for that matter.
https://www.anewdaydawning.com/blog-1/2017/9/27/why-didnt-jesus-explain-demons-what-are-demons-part-2
Did you ever notice that the effect of "casting out demons" is always associated with what we would call largely curable diseases or mental disorders today?
How would you classify: muteness? ability to accurately predict the future?
woman with a spirit of infirmity preventing her from straightening up for 18 years
father's only son with demons of muteness, deafness, and suicide
man with demons of muteness and blindness
man with a demon of muteness
girl with a spirit of divination
Glossary
rukha: wind, _spirit_, breath
unclean rukha: evil spirit, i.e. a demon
deewa: demon
shada: demon
woman with a spirit of infirmity preventing her from straightening up for 18 years
Lk 13 (based on Paul Younan, dukhrana.com)
10. Now while Yeshua [Jesus] taught on the Shabbata [Sabbath] in one of the assemblies, 11. there was there a woman who had a rukha of infirmity eighteen years. And she was bent down and she was not able to straighten herself at all. 12. And Yeshua saw her and called her and said to her,
"Woman, you are freed from your infirmity."
13. And he placed his hand on her, and she straightened herself immediately and glorified Allaha. 14. But the leader of the assembly answered while he was angered because Yeshua had healed on the Shabbata, and said to the assembly, "Six are the days in which it is right to labor in them. You should come (and) be healed, but not on the day of the Shabbata." 15. But Yeshua answered and said to him,
"Hypocrite!
Does not each one of you on the Shabbata
loose his ox or his donkey from the stable
and goes (and) waters it?
16. And this (woman) because she is a daughter of Awraham,
and Akelqartza [the Accuser] has bound her behold eighteen years,
was it not right to free her from this bondage
on the day of the Shabbata?"
father's only son with demons of muteness, deafness, and suicide
Mt 17
14. And when they came towards the crowds, a man approached him and bowed down on his knees, 15. and said to him, "Mari [my lord], have mercy upon me, for my son-- who has a demon of lunacy and is badly afflicted-- many times he has fallen in the fire, and many times in water. 16. And I brought him to your talmida [students/disciples], and they were not able to heal him."
[PY had rendered one idiom present 'a devil.' The literal words are 'bar-agara'/ 'son of a rooftop/terrace,' which Lamsa interprets as being an epileptic and Errico interprets as being a lunatic. GB gives "my son has a lunatic demon." Hogg notes that the Syriac/Aramaic 'son of the roof' means 'demon of lunacy.']
17. Yeshua answered and said,
"Oh generation which is crooked and not mahaymina [faithful]!
Until when must I be with you?
And until when must I endure you?
Bring him here to me."
18. And Yeshua rebuked it, and the shada went out from him. And the boy was healed from that moment. 19. Then the talmida drew near towards Yeshua (while he was) alone and said to him, "Why were we not able to heal him?" 20. Yeshua said to them,
"Because of your unbelief.
For amain I say to you that
if (you) had faith in you like a grain of mustard seed,
you could say to this tuora [mountain],
'move away from here,' and it would move.
And not a thing would be able to prevail over you.
21. But this kind does not go out except by fasting and by prayer."
Mk 9
17. And one from the crowd answered and said, "Malpana [Teacher], I brought my son to you because he has a rukha that does not speak. 18. And whenever it overtakes him, it knocks him down and he foams (at the mouth) and gnashes his teeth and becomes paralyzed. And I asked your talmida to cast him out, and they were not able." 19. Yeshua answered and said to him,
"Oh generation that is not mahaymina [faithful]!
How long must I remain with you,
and how long must I endure you?
Bring him to me."
20. And they brought him to him and when the rukha saw him, it knocked him down at once, and he fell on the ground and was violently shaken and he foamed (at the mouth). 21. And Yeshua asked his father,
"How long has it been since he has been this way?"
He said to him, "Since his youth, 22. and many times it has cast him into the fire and into the water to destroy him. But whatever you are able (to do), have compassion on me and help me!" 23. Yeshua said to him,
"If you are able to believe,
anything is possible to be,
for him who believes."
24. And at once the abba [father] of the boy cried out while mourning and said, "I believe, mari [my lord]. Help the lack of my faith!" 25. And when the people that saw Yeshua ran and gathered around him, he rebuked that unclean rukha and said to him,
"Dumb rukha that does not speak,
I command that you come out from him,
and never enter him again!"
26. And that shada cried out greatly, and he bruised him and came out. And he was like a dead man so that many said that, "He is dead!" 27. But Yeshua took him by his hand and raised him. 28. Now when Yeshua entered the house, his talmida asked him privately, "Why were we not able to cast him out?" 29. He said to them,
"This kind is not able to be cast out by
anything except by fasting and by prayer."
Lk 9
37. And it happened (that) on the next day when they descended from the tuora [mountain], large crowds met up with them. 38. And a certain man from the crowd cried out and he said, "Malpana [Teacher], I beseech you, take notice of me! He is my only son to me, 39. and a rukha seizes him and suddenly he cries out and gnashes his teeth and foams, and with difficulty it departs from him when it has tormented him. 40. And I beseeched your talmida to cast it out, and they were not able." 41. And Yeshua answered and said,
"Oh generation that is not mahaymina [faithful] and is perverse!
How long must I be among you and endure you?
Bring your son here."
42. And while he was bringing him, that deewa cast him down and bruised him, and Yeshua rebuked that unclean rukha and he healed the boy and gave him to his father.
43. And all of them were amazed by the greatness of Allaha. ....
man with demons of muteness and blindness
Mt 12
22. They then brought to him a certain possessed man who was mute and blind, and he healed him, so that the mute and blind man could speak and could see. 23. And all the crowds were marveling and were saying that, "Is this not the Son of Dawid?" 24. But when the Pharisees heard, they said, "This (man) does not cast out shada but by Baal-Zebub, the head of deewa." 25. But Yeshua knew their thoughts and said to them,
"Any kingdom
that is divided against itself
will be destroyed,
and any house and medintha [city]
that is divided against itself
will not stand.
26-28.
And if Satana casts out Satana,
he is divided against himself.
How then does his kingdom stand?
And if I cast out deewa by Baal-Zebub,
with what do your sons cast them out?
Because of this they will be judges to you.
And if by the Rukha of Allaha I cast out deewa,
the kingdom of Allaha has come near to you.
Lk 11
14. And as he was casting out a shada that was dumb, it happened that when that shada went out, that dumb man spoke and the crowds were amazed. 15. And some of them said, "This (man) casts out deewa by Baal-Zebub, the head of deewa." 16. But others while tempting him were asking (for) a sign from Heaven (from) him. 17. But Yeshua who was aware (of) their thoughts said to them,
"Every kingdom that is divided against itself
will become desolate,
and a house that is divided against its own nature
will fail.
18. And if Satana is divided against himself,
how will his kingdom stand?
Because you say that I cast out deewa by Baal-Zebub,
19. and if I cast out deewa by Baal-Zebub,
by whom do your sons cast (them) out?
Because of this they will be judges to you.
20. But if I cast out deewa by the finger of Allaha,
the Kingdom of Allaha, it is drawing near to you.
man with a demon of muteness
Mt 9
32. And when Yeshua went out they brought a mute to him that had a deewa in him. 33. And after the deewa went out, that mute spoke and the crowds were amazed and they said, "Not ever has it been seen such in Israel." 34. But the Pharisees were saying, "He casts out deewa by the chief of deewa."
girl with a spirit of divination
Acts 16
16. And it happened that while we were going to the house of prayer, a certain maiden met up with us who had a rukha of divination, and she made her masters much commerce by the divination that she was divining. 17. And she was following after Polous [Paul] and after us, and she was crying out and said, "These men are the servants of Him-- of Allaha the exalted! And they preach to you the path of life!" 18. And thus she was doing many days. And Polous was angered and said to her-- to that rukha-- "I command you to depart from her in the name of Yeshua the Meshikha [Messiah]!" And at that moment it departed.
To me, in the interlinear, if there is the word "the" would be an indication.. like when the exorcists trying to exorcise on behalf of a person, it said Jesus I know and Paul, but who are you and they beat the man, or was it men?
Acts 19
11 Now God worked unusual miracles by the hands of Paul, 12 so that even handkerchiefs or aprons were brought from his body to the sick, and the diseases left them and the evil spirits went out of them. 13 Then some of the itinerant Jewish exorcists took it upon themselves to call the name of the Lord Jesus over those who had evil spirits, saying, "We exorcise you by the Jesus whom Paul preaches." 14 Also there were seven sons of Sceva, a Jewish chief priest, who did so.
- 15 And the evil spirit answered and said, "Jesus I know, and Paul I know; but who are you?"
16 Then the man in whom the evil spirit was leaped on them, overpowered them, and prevailed against them, so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded. 17 This became known both to all Jews and Greeks dwelling in Ephesus; and fear fell on them all, and the name of the Lord Jesus was magnified. 18 And many who had believed came confessing and telling their deeds. 19 Also, many of those who had practiced magic brought their books together and burned them in the sight of allhttps://biblehub.com/interlinear/acts/19-12.htm "the" is G#3588 :dontknow: made sense to me when I first thought it, about "the" being included indicating something..
But I suppose it could be
the affliction.. or
the mental disorder.. :dontknow: Not saying that's what I believe. The idea of disobedient angels as well as humans seems logical to me.
how about these verses, I wonder..
no, but that the things that the nations sacrifice -- they sacrifice to demons and not to God; and I do not wish you to come into the fellowship of the demons. 1 Cor 10:20
Ps. 106:37
And they sacrifice their sons And their daughters to destroyers some versions,
demons :
https://biblehub.com/interlinear/psalms/106-37.htm ?
https://biblehub.com/hebrew/7700.htm :Chinscratch: -- There's other O.T. verses with the word "shed" H#7700 :dontknow: -
Like
They sacrificed to demons ("sheds") that were no gods, to gods they had never known, to new gods that had come recently, whom your fathers had never feared. Deuteronomy 32:17
Quote
shed: probably demon..
Brown-Driver-Briggs -- [שֵׁד] noun [masculine] apparently demon (loan-word from Assyrian šêdu, a protecting spirit, especially of bull-colossus, DlPa 153 f.; WB 645 COTDeuteronomy 32:17 ZimKAT3. 460 f., 455, 649; compare Aramaic שֵׁידָא, demon, and (perhaps) Phoenician proper name גדשד NöZMG xiii (1888), 481 Lzb249; originally √שׁוד ( = Arabic rule) according to Thes BaudSemitic Rei. i. 130 ff. DlWB and others; > Arabic (III, IV aid, HomZMG xlvi (1892), 529, against this Ziml. c); — יִזְבְּחוּ לַשֵּׁדִים לֹא אֱלֹהַּ Deuteronomy 32:17 (compare Dr), Psalm 106:37 (human sacrifice).
Not much to dis-agree with that human sacrifice is a mental disorder! :mshock:
:Chinscratch: This is interesting... (?)
1 Samuel 5 New King James Version (NKJV)
The Philistines and the Ark
5 Then the Philistines took the ark of God and brought it from Ebenezer to Ashdod. 2 When the Philistines took the ark of God, they brought it into the house of Dagon and set it by Dagon. 3 And when the people of Ashdod arose early in the morning, there was Dagon, fallen on its face to the earth before the ark of the Lord. So they took Dagon and set it in its place again. 4 And when they arose early the next morning, there was Dagon, fallen on its face to the ground before the ark of the Lord. The head of Dagon and both the palms of its hands were broken off on the threshold; only Dagon’s torso was left of it. 5 Therefore neither the priests of Dagon nor any who come into Dagon’s house tread on the threshold of Dagon in Ashdod to this day.
Not as support one way or another.. just interesting..
Trying to tempt Jesus - "9 And he said to him, “All these I will give you, if you will fall down and worship me.” Mt. 4:9
1 Timothy 4:1
Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons, - https://biblehub.com/interlinear/1_timothy/4-1.htm
Quote from: marie glen on October 28, 2018, 12:08:50 AM
Quoteshed: probably demon..
Brown-Driver-Briggs -- [שֵׁד] noun [masculine] apparently demon (loan-word from Assyrian šêdu, a protecting spirit, especially of bull-colossus, DlPa 153 f.; WB 645 COTDeuteronomy 32:17 ZimKAT3. 460 f., 455, 649; compare Aramaic שֵׁידָא, demon, and (perhaps) Phoenician proper name גדשד NöZMG xiii (1888), 481 Lzb249; originally √שׁוד ( = Arabic rule) according to Thes BaudSemitic Rei. i. 130 ff. DlWB and others; > Arabic (III, IV aid, HomZMG xlvi (1892), 529, against this Ziml. c); — יִזְבְּחוּ לַשֵּׁדִים לֹא אֱלֹהַּ Deuteronomy 32:17 (compare Dr), Psalm 106:37 (human sacrifice).
Not much to dis-agree with that human sacrifice is a mental disorder!
Do pregnant women that go to abortuaries to get their children killed have "a mental disorder"?
Do individuals that perform human sacrifices as part of their witchcraft practices have "a mental disorder"?
Quote from: DavidFord on October 28, 2018, 01:49:21 AM
Quote from: marie glen on October 28, 2018, 12:08:50 AM
Quoteshed: probably demon..
Brown-Driver-Briggs -- [שֵׁד] noun [masculine] apparently demon (loan-word from Assyrian šêdu, a protecting spirit, especially of bull-colossus, DlPa 153 f.; WB 645 COTDeuteronomy 32:17 ZimKAT3. 460 f., 455, 649; compare Aramaic שֵׁידָא, demon, and (perhaps) Phoenician proper name גדשד NöZMG xiii (1888), 481 Lzb249; originally √שׁוד ( = Arabic rule) according to Thes BaudSemitic Rei. i. 130 ff. DlWB and others; > Arabic (III, IV aid, HomZMG xlvi (1892), 529, against this Ziml. c); — יִזְבְּחוּ לַשֵּׁדִים לֹא אֱלֹהַּ Deuteronomy 32:17 (compare Dr), Psalm 106:37 (human sacrifice).
Not much to dis-agree with that human sacrifice is a mental disorder!
Do pregnant women that go to abortuaries to get their children killed have "a mental disorder"?
Do individuals that perform human sacrifices as part of their witchcraft practices have "a mental disorder"?
If you haven't seen, the testimony links from a witch mentions this. Apparently happens around Halloween mostly. He also mentioned how people get demons attached to them when casting spells, and the addiction makes drug addictions look like child's play, kindergarten level.
Ok the guy has lots of scripture in most of his articles, maybe not the ones I linked.
Overall what I personally got out of his articles that maybe didn't come across are the following thoughts:
1) we should NOT be constantly thinking about demons, casting them out, warring with them, being scared of them etc because our focus should be on Jesus.
2) his experiences were coming from a Pentecostal background where he lived this kind of life of spiritual warfare and exorcisms...but when he and his wife decided to stop engaging in this kind of stuff the weird demonic experiences stopped. Which to me is very interesting that they stopped focusing on it and it ceased.
3) They also said (possibly in another article) they used to go to mission trips to places like India and cast out demons...when they switched to just hugging/holding and loving the people possessed it had the same effect. Why would this be?
4) He believes in angels. He also goes into how historically demons were thought to be human spirits who died.
5) the third article about the scientific study of the power of inner peace on terrorism really wowed me
So I will reiterate that I don't know what I believe about demons but I do know that focusing on them
Isn't how I believe we should live as Christians.
Greater is He who is in us.
Quotewe should NOT be constantly thinking about demons, casting them out, warring with them, being scared of them etc because our focus should be on Jesus.
Phillipian 4:8
QuoteThey also said (possibly in another article) they used to go to mission trips to places like India and cast out demons...when they switched to just hugging/holding and loving the people possessed it had the same effect. Why would this be?
Because perfect love casts out fear.
Seems most only think of demons in terms of one being possessed. There is more to that. If objects move by themselves, rooms get bone chilling cold sporadically, etc. on their own without "demons", then we're all crazy.
We all see throught he mirror darkly though, but it is hard to beat a person with experience.
Quote from: MusicLover123 on October 28, 2018, 03:09:46 AM
Quotewe should NOT be constantly thinking about demons, casting them out, warring with them, being scared of them etc because our focus should be on Jesus.
Phillipian 4:8
QuoteThey also said (possibly in another article) they used to go to mission trips to places like India and cast out demons...when they switched to just hugging/holding and loving the people possessed it had the same effect. Why would this be?
Because perfect love casts out fear.
Seems most only think of demons in terms of one being possessed. There is more to that. If objects move by themselves, rooms get bone chilling cold sporadically, etc. on their own without "demons", then we're all crazy.
We all see throught he mirror darkly though, but it is hard to beat a person with experience.
Did the Bible talk of demons moving objects in rooms or making them cold?
Like I said I have no position one way or the other at this time. I've had a fair amount of my own weird experiences in my life too, but without the doctrines of men how would I have interpreted these experiences? The author of the article had his own experiences as well. I've gone through periods of not believing in demons, believing in them, ignoring them, focusing on them and casting them out left and right, fearing them, etc. and right now I'm unsure about their nature but firmly believe we are to focus on God/Jesus/love instead.
The third article I linked talked about his personal experiences with demonic stuff in his house, and how not focusing on it make it cease to exist. Then he had some theories about our own beliefs, fears etc influencing our surroundings, or others' feelings and beliefs influencing our surroundings. Quantum physics coming into play possibly.
"So if you are looking for definitive absolutes here, then you may be disappointed. This is partially so because a vast number of things that we have attributed to "demonic" activity simply aren't. For instance, we suppose that if cabinet doors swing open and things fall off the walls or plates jump off shelves... it must be a demon in the house. Yet, the truth is we never find these things associated with demons anywhere in the Bible. In fact, demons are only associated with people experiencing sickness or mental disease or occasionally seemingly superhuman strength. So then what IS the source of some of the wild, seemingly dark experiences? That is so broad that books would need to be written I suppose. But more importantly, what if we have neglected the simplest answer to why things move, fall off the walls, etc.? What if you are the cause? That's right. What if your beliefs in demons, darkness and fear actually set things in motion in the spiritual-physical realm? What if you are more powerful than you thought and are doing nothing but shadow boxing yourself?
I know from personal experience that when we quit believing demons were the source of the problems in our home those things just stopped. I believe it was OUR fear and focus that caused those things to happen."
If there are demons and they are real, I still believe the best course of action is just more Jesus. Like you said, Phillipians 4:8 and perfect love casting out fear.
QuoteDid the Bible talk of demons moving objects in rooms or making them cold?
I'm in no mood to talk about this anymore, but just end it with this:
John 21
25Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written.
John 20
30And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
John 16:12
12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
Quote from: MusicLover123 on October 28, 2018, 02:21:55 AM
Quote from: DavidFord on October 28, 2018, 01:49:21 AM
Do pregnant women that go to abortuaries to get their children killed have "a mental disorder"?
Do individuals that perform human sacrifices as part of their witchcraft practices have "a mental disorder"?
If you haven't seen, the testimony links from a witch mentions this. Apparently happens around Halloween mostly. He also mentioned how people get demons attached to them when casting spells, and the addiction makes drug addictions look like child's play, kindergarten level.
I haven't seen that testimony-- link? Any person's involvement with the occult including ouija boards and phychic readings is an invitation for demons to influence that person. I could understand how the ability to control other people-- power-- could be addictive.
Testimony of a Former Witch
http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Testimonies/witch.htm
Yes witchcraft works. It's all about power and control and the power is INSTANT. Immediate gratification. .... When I was in the occult, I had an elitist mentality and felt special and chosen. There was power and control over people, yet I was always depressed.
Former Satanist: "I Performed Satanic Rituals Inside Abortion Clinics"
http://www.lepantoinstitute.org/abortion/former-satanist-i-performed-satanic-rituals-inside-abortion-clinics/
....in satanism, killing something or the death of something is the most effective way of getting your spell accomplished. As far as trying to get satan's approval, to give you something that you want, killing something is the best way to go. Killing something is the ultimate offering to satan, and if you can kill an unborn, that is his ultimate goal.
Part 1:
https://youtu.be/7Nf8WPQT4WE
Part 2:
https://youtu.be/LrZaiPXtEqU
Part 3:
https://youtu.be/IDK1Bnbd1eI
Part 4:
https://youtu.be/9SP-Qc2FwaA
John Todd on the music industry:
https://youtu.be/3_p14nClVTA
I try to focus on good things(Phillipians 4:8) all the time. If I started looking more and more into these things, I could see how it would be walking in both light and darkness, and open doors you don't want open.
Quote from: GodIsLove on October 28, 2018, 02:47:21 AM
Overall what I personally got out of his articles that maybe didn't come across are the following thoughts:
1) we should NOT be constantly thinking about demons, casting them out, warring with them, being scared of them etc because our focus should be on Jesus.
2) his experiences were coming from a Pentecostal background where he lived this kind of life of spiritual warfare and exorcisms...but when he and his wife decided to stop engaging in this kind of stuff the weird demonic experiences stopped. Which to me is very interesting that they stopped focusing on it and it ceased.
3) They also said (possibly in another article) they used to go to mission trips to places like India and cast out demons...when they switched to just hugging/holding and loving the people possessed it had the same effect. Why would this be?
4) He believes in angels. He also goes into how historically demons were thought to be human spirits who died.
5) the third article about the scientific study of the power of inner peace on terrorism really wowed me
So I will reiterate that I don't know what I believe about demons but I do know that focusing on them Isn't how I believe we should live as Christians.
Greater is He who is in us.
"we should NOT be constantly thinking about demons"
Agreed.
"our focus should be on Jesus"
I'd say, our main focus should be on Jesus (if one thought _only_ about Jesus, one wouldn't be able to think about e.g. which car to buy, shirt to wear, etc. Of course, one could consult Jesus when making those decisions). Jesus frequently cast out demons, and yet few present-day Christ-followers imitate Jesus' example in casting out demons.
"Why would this be?"
Maybe the demons couldn't stand being in the presence of God's love. For how long afterwards did those hugged remain free? Were those hugged instructed on how to remain demon-free?
"they stopped focusing on it and it ceased"
It is possible to empower the demonic by a wrong approach to it, e.g. by trying to win a battle with demons that Christ already won by his death and resurrection. This guy had a good approach:
_Listen To Me Satan!_ by Carlos Annacondia
https://www.amazon.com/Listen-To-Me-Satan/dp/1629986585
From a book review of it:
....this book portrays what christianity should and can be. This book portrays the same power of the first century church that sadly, so many churches/christians have moved away from.
Quote from: MusicLover123 on October 28, 2018, 03:09:23 AM
John Todd on the music industry:
https://youtu.be/3_p14nClVTA
I try to focus on good things(Phillipians 4:8) all the time. If I started looking more and more into these things, I could see how it would be walking in both light and darkness, and open doors you don't want open.
I've heard of some people avoiding 'the news' because it can be depressing to hear regularly.
Philippians 4:8 (HCSB)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Phillipians%204%3A8&version=YLT;HCSB
Finally brothers, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is commendable—if there is any moral excellence and if there is any praise—dwell on these things.
Quote from: GodIsLove on October 28, 2018, 03:15:32 AM
Did the Bible talk of demons moving objects in rooms or making them cold?
Like I said I have no position one way or the other at this time. I've had a fair amount of my own weird experiences in my life too, but without the doctrines of men how would I have interpreted these experiences? The author of the article had his own experiences as well. I've gone through periods of not believing in demons, believing in them, ignoring them, focusing on them and casting them out left and right, fearing them, etc. and right now I'm unsure about their nature but firmly believe we are to focus on God/Jesus/love instead. .... If there are demons and they are real, I still believe the best course of action is just more Jesus.
"Fearing them" is a lousy approach.
Matthew 10:28 (YLT)
https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=fear+body&qs_version=DLNT%3BYLT
'And be not afraid of those killing the body, and are not able to kill the soul, but fear rather Him who is able both soul and body to destroy in gehenna.
Do you agree with this sentiment?: If there's a hell and there are people in it and going to it, the best course of action is to focus on God/Jesus/love instead.
"Did the Bible talk of demons moving objects in rooms or making them cold?"
No. Incidentally, angels and demons can do far more that what the Bible says they've done.
Quote....this book portrays what christianity should and can be. This book portrays the same power of the first century church that sadly, so many churches/christians have moved away from.
Mar 16:14 Finally he appeared to his eleven disciples while they were eating. He rebuked them for their unbelief and stubbornness, because they had not believed those who had seen him after he had risen.
Heb 3:19 So we see that they were unable to enter because of their unbelief.
Remember, these are the same people who have the faith of most Christians nowadays. Who believe in Christ and are "born again." Is that enough faith? No. Many believe nowadays that God does not give Spiritual gifts anymore, or speaks, and the main reason why you don't see much of it anymore. It is not our own faith though. It is a gift of God. There is MUCH more for us to experience, and I especially found this out very recently(Hint: baptism of the Holy Spirit - most are baptised in John's baptism to repentance, but being baptized in the Spirit would be Pentecost experience)
Mar 9:23 Jesus told him, "'If you are able?' Everything is possible for the person who believes!"
QuoteI'd say, our main focus should be on Jesus (if one thought _only_ about Jesus, one wouldn't be able to think about e.g. which car to buy, shirt to wear, etc. Of course, one could consult Jesus when making those decisions)
Psalm 23
1The Lord is my shepherd;
I shall not want.
Matthew 6
8
Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.25
Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink; or about your body, what you will wear. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothes?26Look at the birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not much more valuable than they?
31
So do not worry, saying, 'What shall we eat?' or 'What shall we drink?' or 'What shall we wear?Phillipians 4
6
Do not be anxious about anything, but in every situation, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your requests to God. 7And the peace of God, which transcends all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus.CLV has it "don't worry about anything."
Mark 4
19
but the worries of this life, the deceitfulness of wealth and the desires for other things come in and choke the word, making it unfruitful.We eventually get to this point through an increase of faith. This takes A LOT of faith, and I'm not even at this point yet. It means literally not worrying about anything, even your needs. Trusting Him for everything, that He shall supply it for you as a father supplies his own children their needs, and the children trusting their father that they will be provided for.
Quote from: GodIsLove on October 28, 2018, 02:47:21 AM
Ok the guy has lots of scripture in most of his articles, maybe not the ones I linked.
Overall what I personally got out of his articles that maybe didn't come across are the following thoughts:
1) we should NOT be constantly thinking about demons, casting them out, warring with them, being scared of them etc because our focus should be on Jesus.
Amen!! Evil thoughts, for instance are to be resisted and they will flee from us.. wherever they come from at any time.. and things more dire, should they come up, I take it can be ordered to be still.. to be removed.. in the all powerful name of Jesus.. if we believe.. No matter the source of the terrible thing.. However, evil things do still win, that's obvious, as diseases.. wars..
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2) his experiences were coming from a Pentecostal background where he lived this kind of life of spiritual warfare and exorcisms...but when he and his wife decided to stop engaging in this kind of stuff the weird demonic experiences stopped. Which to me is very interesting that they stopped focusing on it and it ceased.
oh yes.. I think every single thing there is, has its extreme(s) and sometimes I think we are a little prone to going from one extreme to the other. :doh: :laughing7:
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3) They also said (possibly in another article) they used to go to mission trips to places like India and cast out demons...when they switched to just hugging/holding and loving the people possessed it had the same effect. Why would this be?
:Chinscratch: ..like law of attraction..? and as mentioned already, the Spirit of God brings liberty.. (has to be maintained/continued though? like the parable of the ousting of one, being like cleaning the house and then the one comes back with seven more.. whether spirits or thoughts, impulses.. the cleaned home has to then be filled with His Spirit, the (spiritual) bread and wine being the sustenance?
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4) He believes in angels. He also goes into how historically demons were thought to be human spirits who died.
..this one worries me.. :gsmile:
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5) the third article about the scientific study of the power of inner peace on terrorism really wowed me
:cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :Chinscratch: thank you.. I gotta remember that.. "rest in the Lord.. wait upon Him.. (and He will renew your strength.. you will walk and not be weary you shall run and not faint.. rise up on wings like eagles.." (very poorly paraphrased?)
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So I will reiterate that I don't know what I believe about demons but I do know that focusing on them
Isn't how I believe we should live as Christians.
Greater is He who is in us.
Amen! (..absolutely!)
Quote from: MusicLover123 on October 28, 2018, 06:56:09 AM
QuoteI'd say, our main focus should be on Jesus (if one thought _only_ about Jesus, one wouldn't be able to think about e.g. which car to buy, shirt to wear, etc. Of course, one could consult Jesus when making those decisions)
Psalm 23
1The Lord is my shepherd; I shall not want.
Matthew 6
8Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.
25 Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink; or about your body, what you will wear. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothes?
26Look at the birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not much more valuable than they?
31So do not worry, saying, 'What shall we eat?' or 'What shall we drink?' or 'What shall we wear?
Phillipians 4
6Do not be anxious about anything, but in every situation, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your requests to God. 7And the peace of God, which transcends all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus.
CLV has it "don't worry about anything."
:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :cloud9:
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Mark 4
19but the worries of this life, the deceitfulness of wealth and the desires for other things come in and choke the word, making it unfruitful.
We eventually get to this point through an increase of faith. This takes A LOT of faith, and I'm not even at this point yet.
....you aren't alone brother... :mshock:
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It means literally not worrying about anything, even your needs. Trusting Him for everything, that He shall supply it for you as a father supplies his own children their needs, and the children trusting their father that they will be provided for.
:cloud9: the joy.. the resting.. won't it be wonderful.. :Peace2:
I was thinking about 1 Tim. 4:1 - But the Spirit expressly states that in later times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons,
-- https://biblehub.com/interlinear/1_timothy/4-1.htm
..The phrase "teaching of demons"
There's not really a word for "of" or "about" in it..
It's didaskalia: instruction, teaching (G1319)
and, daimonion: an evil-spirit, demon; a heathen deity ...[1140 /daimónion ("demon"), the diminutive form of 1142 /daímōn ("demon"), conveys how utterly powerless demons (fallen angels) are against Christ (His plan). :thumbsup:
And, about "azazel", Sister Sheila talks about it, called the "scapegoat" -
Leviticus 16:8,10 - And Aaron shall cast lots over the two goats, one lot for the LORD and the other lot for Azazel. ...But the goat chosen by lot to be the scapegoat shall be presented alive before the LORD to make purification by sending it into the wilderness as the scapegoat.
https://biblehub.com/interlinear/leviticus/16-10.htm
(https://biblehub.com/interlinear/leviticus/16-8.htm (https://biblehub.com/interlinear/leviticus/16-8.htm))
azazel: entire removal (H5799) - I found this very interesting.. that the scapegoat is sent away into the wilderness (outer) and the word means "entire removal"
Fall Holy Day, Day of Atonement (DOA)
6 "Aaron shall offer the bull as a sin offering, which is for himself, and make atonement for himself and for his house. 7 He shall take the two goats and present them before the Lord at the door of the tabernacle of meeting. 8 Then Aaron shall cast lots for the two goats: one lot for the Lord and the other lot for the scapegoat. 9 And Aaron shall bring the goat on which the Lord's lot fell, and offer it as a sin offering. 10 But the goat on which the lot fell to be the scapegoat shall be presented alive before the Lord, to make atonement upon it, and to let it go as the scapegoat into the wilderness.. the goat of the sin offering, which is for the people, bring its blood inside the veil, do with that blood as he did with the blood of the bull, and sprinkle it on the mercy seat and before the mercy seat. (typifying our Lord's crucifixion) 21 Aaron shall lay both his hands on the head of the live goat, confess over it all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions, concerning all their sins, putting them on the head of the goat, and shall send it away into the wilderness by the hand of a suitable man. 22 The goat shall bear on itself all their iniquities to an uninhabited land; and he shall release the goat in the wilderness. ..29 "This shall be a statute forever for you: In the seventh month, on the tenth day of the month, you shall afflict your souls, and do no work at all, whether a native of your own country or a stranger who dwells among you. 30 For on that day the priest shall make atonement for you, to cleanse you, that you may be clean from all your sins before the Lord.
:Chinscratch: my own thoughts, speculations, Azazel.. scapegoat.. is that what the adversary is? How gracious.. engineering (waiting) for the fall of a powerful/radiant one - believers will be radiant in the age(s) to come - and the fall of all mankind reckoned unto that one.. one stronger than Adam/earthly (now mortal anyway, so way weaker) - not only speeds things along - to the inevitable crash and apocalypse.. because the life/world/empires are not built on the Rock, but on sand/untruth.. not only the adversary (&co) speed things along (greatly) but in a double way (the 2 goats on DOA) declaring all (ultimately) innocent..(?) [on DOA]?
Quote from: DavidFord on October 27, 2018, 05:19:14 PM
Quote from: CST on October 27, 2018, 02:20:40 PM
Quote from: DavidFord on October 26, 2018, 06:04:35 AM
So you think "they believed in something that the word 'demons' represents," and you think demons don't exist, so therefore Jesus was deceived about demons, in your estimation. What are some other things you think Jesus was deceived about, besides demons?
Deceived is generally a strong word used carefully it doesn't mean much, used frequently it sounds more problematic. Jesus presumably believed the Genesis creation myth and not in evolution of life, geology and geography. He believed that Moses wrote the first five books of the Bible, I share this belief actually. But I think at least as possible, if not more so, He was fully aware these beliefs were incorrect but felt it would be distracting and less than constructive to correct the wider populace in these belief. Or the Father did which is why He continued to withhold that particular information from His Son once He had 'emptied Himself'.
"Jesus presumably believed the Genesis creation myth"
What leads you to conclude that "the Genesis creation myth" is a "myth"?
"Jesus presumably believed... not in evolution of life"
'Evolution' has numerous definitions. Meaning there of [CST]"evolution"?
Do you think Jesus was involved in the creation of: matter-energy? biology?
"I think at least as possible, if not more so, He was fully aware these beliefs were incorrect"
Do you think Jesus believed things that Jesus believed "were incorrect"?
I probably shouldn't really use the word 'myth' is has baggage I don't really want to bring in, however it's also simple for shorthand conversation.
Evolution may have many definitions but not of the feature it the most literal readings of God creating the world in an historic seven day period. According to that God just built everything and assembled it in situ.
No, Jesus wouldn't believe anything He know to be incorrect, but He would know that other members of society believed them and may employ them for use as lessons if they served the term, unless there is a more major issue of honesty here which i don't yet see the ramifications off. But this seems difficult to believe but it would seem to require God to tell us everything and withhold nothing lest He be accused of deceit by omission and that doesn't seem to be how things are prevented. God isn't held as deceiving us by forbidding John from writing down what the seven thunders said.
Quote from: DavidFord on October 27, 2018, 09:29:40 PM
Quote from: GodIsLove on October 26, 2018, 04:55:03 PM
he's a Christian universalist...and I'm now reading his series on demons
https://www.anewdaydawning.com/blog-1/2017/9/27/why-didnt-jesus-explain-demons-what-are-demons-part-2
In the very well researched work by Duncan Heaster called The Real Devil, he notes...
"When we read in Acts 8:7 of unclean spirits crying out, the Eastern (Aramaic) text reads: "Many who were mentally afflicted cried out". This is because, according to George Lamsa, ""Unclean spirits" is an Aramaic term used to describe lunatics" (3). It should be noted that Lamsa was a native Aramaic speaker with a fine understanding of Aramaic terms. He grew up in a remote part of Kurdistan which had maintained the Aramaic language almost unchanged since the time of Jesus. It's significant that Lamsa's extensive writings indicate that he failed to see in the teachings of Jesus and Paul any support for the popular conception of the devil and demons- he insisted that the Semitic and Aramaic terms used by them have been misunderstood by Western readers and misused in order to lend support for their conceptions of a personal devil and demons."
Lamsa's prejudice against the supernatural warped his translation of the NT. Thus for Acts 8:7, Lamsa speaks of people "mentally afflicted" instead of those oppressed by "unclean spirits."
Acts 8:7, http://dukhrana.com
(Etheridge) For many whom unclean spirits possessed cried with a high voice, and they came out from them; and others, palsied and lame, were healed:
(Murdock) For many who were possessed by unclean spirits, cried with a loud voice, and came out of them: and others, who were paralytic and lame, were healed.
(Lamsa) Many who were mentally afflicted, cried with loud voices and were restored; and others who were paralytic and lame, were healed.
(KJV) For unclean spirits, crying with loud voice, came out of many that were possessed with them: and many taken with palsies, and that were lame, were healed.
Or maybe he's correct. I continue to find how easily interchangeable to words translated as 'demon' and 'unclean spirit' are odd. If something is a demon and demon means what it seems to mean you call it a demon, the term 'unclean spirit' dilutes the idea. Lamsa's confusion (if that's what it is) is hardly surprising.
Quote from: marie glen on October 28, 2018, 12:08:50 AM
To me, in the interlinear, if there is the word "the" would be an indication.. like when the exorcists trying to exorcise on behalf of a person, it said Jesus I know and Paul, but who are you and they beat the man, or was it men?
Acts 19
11 Now God worked unusual miracles by the hands of Paul, 12 so that even handkerchiefs or aprons were brought from his body to the sick, and the diseases left them and the evil spirits went out of them. 13 Then some of the itinerant Jewish exorcists took it upon themselves to call the name of the Lord Jesus over those who had evil spirits, saying, "We exorcise you by the Jesus whom Paul preaches." 14 Also there were seven sons of Sceva, a Jewish chief priest, who did so.
- 15 And the evil spirit answered and said, "Jesus I know, and Paul I know; but who are you?"
16 Then the man in whom the evil spirit was leaped on them, overpowered them, and prevailed against them, so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded. 17 This became known both to all Jews and Greeks dwelling in Ephesus; and fear fell on them all, and the name of the Lord Jesus was magnified. 18 And many who had believed came confessing and telling their deeds. 19 Also, many of those who had practiced magic brought their books together and burned them in the sight of all
https://biblehub.com/interlinear/acts/19-12.htm "the" is G#3588 :dontknow: made sense to me when I first thought it, about "the" being included indicating something..
But I suppose it could be the affliction.. or the mental disorder.. :dontknow: Not saying that's what I believe. The idea of disobedient angels as well as humans seems logical to me.
how about these verses, I wonder..
no, but that the things that the nations sacrifice -- they sacrifice to demons and not to God; and I do not wish you to come into the fellowship of the demons. 1 Cor 10:20
Ps. 106:37 And they sacrifice their sons And their daughters to destroyers some versions, demons :
https://biblehub.com/interlinear/psalms/106-37.htm ?
https://biblehub.com/hebrew/7700.htm :Chinscratch: -- There's other O.T. verses with the word "shed" H#7700 :dontknow: -
Like They sacrificed to demons ("sheds") that were no gods, to gods they had never known, to new gods that had come recently, whom your fathers had never feared. Deuteronomy 32:17
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shed: probably demon..
Brown-Driver-Briggs -- [שֵׁד] noun [masculine] apparently demon (loan-word from Assyrian šêdu, a protecting spirit, especially of bull-colossus, DlPa 153 f.; WB 645 COTDeuteronomy 32:17 ZimKAT3. 460 f., 455, 649; compare Aramaic שֵׁידָא, demon, and (perhaps) Phoenician proper name גדשד NöZMG xiii (1888), 481 Lzb249; originally √שׁוד ( = Arabic rule) according to Thes BaudSemitic Rei. i. 130 ff. DlWB and others; > Arabic (III, IV aid, HomZMG xlvi (1892), 529, against this Ziml. c); — יִזְבְּחוּ לַשֵּׁדִים לֹא אֱלֹהַּ Deuteronomy 32:17 (compare Dr), Psalm 106:37 (human sacrifice).
Not much to dis-agree with that human sacrifice is a mental disorder! :mshock:
Gah, did you see that there are four different words in that first sentence all apparently translated as 'the'?
Quote from: marie glen on October 28, 2018, 12:17:38 AM
:Chinscratch: This is interesting... (?)
1 Samuel 5 New King James Version (NKJV)
The Philistines and the Ark
5 Then the Philistines took the ark of God and brought it from Ebenezer to Ashdod. 2 When the Philistines took the ark of God, they brought it into the house of Dagon and set it by Dagon. 3 And when the people of Ashdod arose early in the morning, there was Dagon, fallen on its face to the earth before the ark of the Lord. So they took Dagon and set it in its place again. 4 And when they arose early the next morning, there was Dagon, fallen on its face to the ground before the ark of the Lord. The head of Dagon and both the palms of its hands were broken off on the threshold; only Dagon's torso was left of it. 5 Therefore neither the priests of Dagon nor any who come into Dagon's house tread on the threshold of Dagon in Ashdod to this day.
Not as support one way or another.. just interesting..
Trying to tempt Jesus - "9 And he said to him, "All these I will give you, if you will fall down and worship me." Mt. 4:9
1 Timothy 4:1
Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons, - https://biblehub.com/interlinear/1_timothy/4-1.htm
Indeed, so. You notice that in the Bible demons aren't generally shown as worshipping God in any capacity. I've always thought of Dagon as a graven image, from the hands and imagination of men. A will-less statue which God can easily manipulate in order to prove this point and there's no actual supernatural being connected to it.
Quote from: DavidFord on October 28, 2018, 01:49:21 AM
Quote from: marie glen on October 28, 2018, 12:08:50 AM
Quoteshed: probably demon..
Brown-Driver-Briggs -- [שֵׁד] noun [masculine] apparently demon (loan-word from Assyrian šêdu, a protecting spirit, especially of bull-colossus, DlPa 153 f.; WB 645 COTDeuteronomy 32:17 ZimKAT3. 460 f., 455, 649; compare Aramaic שֵׁידָא, demon, and (perhaps) Phoenician proper name גדשד NöZMG xiii (1888), 481 Lzb249; originally √שׁוד ( = Arabic rule) according to Thes BaudSemitic Rei. i. 130 ff. DlWB and others; > Arabic (III, IV aid, HomZMG xlvi (1892), 529, against this Ziml. c); — יִזְבְּחוּ לַשֵּׁדִים לֹא אֱלֹהַּ Deuteronomy 32:17 (compare Dr), Psalm 106:37 (human sacrifice).
Not much to dis-agree with that human sacrifice is a mental disorder!
Do pregnant women that go to abortuaries to get their children killed have "a mental disorder"?
Do individuals that perform human sacrifices as part of their witchcraft practices have "a mental disorder"?
In both cases, some of them. Do of them are just some form of wicked, but they don't have to have a demon for that. It's a binary choice between 'demon' or 'mental illness' for the explanation of human wickedness.
Quote from: CST on October 29, 2018, 01:44:16 PM
Quote from: DavidFord on October 27, 2018, 05:19:14 PM
"Jesus presumably believed the Genesis creation myth"
What leads you to conclude that "the Genesis creation myth" is a "myth"?
"Jesus presumably believed... not in evolution of life"
'Evolution' has numerous definitions. Meaning there of [CST]"evolution"?
Do you think Jesus was involved in the creation of: matter-energy? biology?
"I think at least as possible, if not more so, He was fully aware these beliefs were incorrect"
Do you think Jesus believed things that Jesus believed "were incorrect"?
I probably shouldn't really use the word 'myth' is has baggage I don't really want to bring in, however it's also simple for shorthand conversation.
Evolution may have many definitions but not of the feature it the most literal readings of God creating the world in an historic seven day period. According to that God just built everything and assembled it in situ.
No, Jesus wouldn't believe anything He know to be incorrect, but He would know that other members of society believed them and may employ them for use as lessons if they served the term, unless there is a more major issue of honesty here which i don't yet see the ramifications off. But this seems difficult to believe but it would seem to require God to tell us everything and withhold nothing lest He be accused of deceit by omission and that doesn't seem to be how things are prevented. God isn't held as deceiving us by forbidding John from writing down what the seven thunders said.
What leads you to conclude that "the Genesis creation myth" is a "myth" (or whatever less-baggage word or phrase you wish to substitute)?
"Evolution... definitions but not of the feature it the most literal readings of God creating the world in an historic seven day period"
If 'evolution' is defined as 'change over time,' then "God creating the world in an historic seven day period" has the world undergoing evolution/'change over time' during the 7 days.
"Jesus presumably believed... not in evolution of life" Meaning there of [CST]"evolution"?
"Jesus wouldn't believe anything He know to be incorrect"
Agreed. Do you think that Jesus' remarks about demons were remarks that Jesus believed to be correct?
Quote from: CST on October 29, 2018, 01:44:16 PM
Quote from: DavidFord on October 27, 2018, 05:19:14 PM
Do pregnant women that go to abortuaries to get their children killed have "a mental disorder"? Do individuals that perform human sacrifices as part of their witchcraft practices have "a mental disorder"?
In both cases, some of them. Do of them are just some form of wicked, but they don't have to have a demon for that. It's a binary choice between 'demon' or 'mental illness' for the explanation of human wickedness.
You think demons don't exist, so you can't use 'demonic influence' to explain any wickedness.
A Nazi plucked the beautiful eyes of a Jewish girl out of her head, while her mother watched. Did that plucking arise from "a mental disorder"?
What's your view of the remark below?
Ana Mendez Ferrell, _Regions of Captivity_ (2015), 171pp., 80.
https://www.amazon.com/Regions-Captivity-Ana-Mendez-Ferrell/dp/1933163224/
He [Hitler] studied the occult extensively. The devil asked him to reproduce a replica of hell on earth.
Quote from: CST on October 29, 2018, 01:44:16 PM
You notice that in the Bible demons aren't generally shown as worshipping God in any capacity. I've always thought of Dagon as a graven image, from the hands and imagination of men. A will-less statue which God can easily manipulate in order to prove this point and there's no actual supernatural being connected to it.
Do you think it's possible for a non-sentient/non-conscious entity to: believe something? will something? ask for permission?
James 2:19
https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/James%202:19
DLNT You believe that God is one? You do well. Even the demons believe and shudder!
YLT thou -- thou dost believe that God is one; thou dost well, and the demons believe, and they shudder!
Mt 12:44
https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/Matthew%2012:44
DLNT Then it says, 'I will return to my house from where I came-out'. And having come, it finds it being unoccupied, having been swept and put-in-order.
YLT then it saith, I will turn back to my house whence I came forth; and having come, it findeth [it] unoccupied, swept, and adorned:
Lk 8:32
https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/Luke%208:32
NIV A large herd of pigs was feeding there on the hillside. The demons begged Jesus to let them go into the pigs, and he gave them permission.
Quote from: CST on October 29, 2018, 01:44:16 PM
Indeed, so. You notice that in the Bible demons aren't generally shown as worshipping God in any capacity. I've always thought of Dagon as a graven image, from the hands and imagination of men. A will-less statue which God can easily manipulate in order to prove this point and there's no actual supernatural being connected to it.
True, I just thought it was interesting.
Quick note - some of the graphic details/links have become disturbing to some member(s). Perhaps we could wrap up this dwelling on reported demons and demonic activity and move on to things more uplifting and profitable, i.e., Victorious :) . That would keep the thread from getting locked. Thanks.
Quote from: jabcat on October 30, 2018, 05:39:37 PM
Quick note - some of the graphic details/links have become disturbing to some member(s). Perhaps we could wrap up this dwelling on reported demons and demonic activity and move on to things more uplifting and profitable, i.e., Victorious :) . That would keep the thread from getting locked. Thanks.
Romans 16:20 (HCSB)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%2016%3A20&version=YLT;HCSB;DLNT
The God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet.
The grace of our Lord Jesus be with you.
From
http://holloway270.rssing.com/chan-26172398/all_p3.html
So how do we avoid doing battle with him unwisely?
How do you think?
I guess you're going to say listen to you.
Yes. You could try another approach, but if you want to do damage and come out undamaged yourself, then you're going to have to listen to me. I could do nothing worth doing, and neither can you, without hearing the voice. Simple as that. But let's keep talking about doing damage, hunting him down, inflicting pain, pushing him back. Because Mark either you're going to do that to him, or he's going to do it to you. Your choice. .... Will somebody PLEASE go downstairs and get stuck into him. No I'm not too weak to do it myself, but here's the picture I want you to see. I want YOU to inflict the harm on him, it will teach him AND YOU such an important lesson about the order of things. I so badly want people to see this. ....I want you ALL to go downstairs and give him a DARNED GOOD THRASHING, on a daily basis. .... I could remove him with a thought, frizzle him, uncreate him. But how much more humiliating for him if you do it. Can you see that?
God people want you to do it for them. To somehow just make him not there.
Yes they do, but that's not going to happen. I want YOU to teach him a lesson. YOU! I did it and said that you'd do greater things. Paul did it and said to imitate him. ....I want you to go downstairs, upstairs, outside, inside and give the supreme hater, the liar and the destroyer, that one, and his sidekicks -- I want you ALL to give them a thrashing. BECAUSE IF YOU DO IT, YOU WILL AVENGE YOURSELVES. If I do it, then it will just be me doing it. .... Mark I think you're all so wonderful, I champion you, I want to stand on the side lines and cheer while you knock him to his knees and while he's down, kick him under his jaw, snap his neck and then get out your sword and cut off his head. Do you understand? And if your detractors want a scripture – give them this one... EPH 3:10. And this one, Gen 3:15. And if they want more, tell them to search for more. They're all in there.
I like this verse in Galatians.. "above all.. the large covering shield of faith with which all adversarial darts fall" against.. are broken and fall harmless to the ground.. And I believe in peaceful authority, and peaceful trusting faith.. a "resting in Him". And in that condition I believe we progressively learn to hear and trust the Lord's voice, teaching and leading. Which He is SO good at doing, and we are being remade into His likeness, "we shall be like Him for we shall see Him as He is". And no spiritual enemy can touch us. God is faithful to finish in us all He has started.
The Lord is my Shepherd I shall not want.. If the mountains were to fall into the sea we shall not be afraid for He is our refuge.. our strong and high tower.. (ps.)
Quote from: marie glen on October 31, 2018, 04:12:36 PMand peaceful trusting faith.. a "resting in Him". And in that condition I believe we progressively learn to hear and trust the Lord's voice, teaching and leading
How frequently do you converse with God in 2-way conversations?
From
http://holloway270.rssing.com/chan-26172398/all_p2.html
God it's a bit frightening to suggest that I heard the above explanation direct from you.
Mark what you heard me say was look it up. Now it's up to you and anyone else who has seen what the original Greek says to ask me what it means.
Remember that other scripture that says 'You do not need anyone to teach you, but as the anointing teaches you...' I'm the anointing Mark. Ask me about anything you want to know, bible verses included, and I'll be glad to explain.
And don't just wait for my answer to waft through the universe. Take action. Write, speak, think, sing, play, dance, draw your question and then proceed to do the same for my answer – you start and I'll supply the words.
Wow thanks.
You're welcome.
Quote from: jabcat on October 30, 2018, 05:39:37 PM
things more uplifting and profitable, i.e., Victorious
Prayer is profitable, and can generate uplifting news through victory in Jesus.
Ex-witch Elaine, in Rebecca Brown, _He Came to Set the Captives Free_ (1986), 288pp., 79-80:
Then, suddenly, after about six months, I began to realize that every time I did an incantation in the direction of that doctor the ... came back to me unable to get through. They were not pleased! This was a complication that I didn't need just then! I was puzzled as I had never experienced such a thing before. I did not talk to anyone else about the problem because to admit that my power was failing would have been fatal for me.
Then about three weeks before I turned to Jesus, I received a phone call from Helen. That doctor who had left the hospital dying four months earlier had just that day returned to work. Not only had she returned, but she was completely healed! I was shocked. How could that be? I realized then that a power much greater than anything I had ever seen had blocked us and again I remembered the link angels in California. This doctor must possess the same power that that [angel-protected] family had. I realized that that power was Jesus Christ. ....
Later that day ... showed up again, most unhappy, to ask me why we had failed. "Don't you know?!" I asked. "Yes," he replied, "but I want to know if you know."
"Well I assume somebody must have blocked us by prayer."
"That is right," was his curt answer, then he vanished.
A great victory will be achieved when the gates of hell come down.
From
http://holloway270.rssing.com/chan-26172398/all_p3.html
Why?
Because that's the order of things. The ... are afraid of the angels, they're even more afraid of you humans.
Really? Why God?
Because you're so unpredictably powerful. You have little idea of your power, scant idea of the damage you are often doing to them and the enormous damage you could do if only you knew how. They understand that one day a whole generation of you are going to stand up, be counted and pursue them with a vengeance. They know that when that day comes the gates of hell will be kicked aside by small children, the greatest strongman will be tortured and taunted by old ladies. They have heard the whisper, they know the legend and they are desperately trying to tell each of you – Muslim, Buddhist, Christian, Hindu, Atheist, Agnostic and every other religion – they're desperately telling you that you are NOT dangerous, that you DON'T have any power over them.
Regarding the 2 way conversation thing, we are told to "test every Spirit." Thanks to someone else's comment here, In realize it does not say "reject every Spirit" but to test them. You know this by it exalting the one who sent it. If God sent it, it will exalt Him. Everything else though, if it does not exalt God, you know to not listen to it.
Discernment will go to those who ask for it, and if it is His will. I question a couple things from there, but mostly it seems OK. This rule of discernment applies to anything though. Including hearing God's voice, dreams, visions, taken up in the Spirit, etc.
I also realize now why God calls a lot of Muslims out through dreams. They see dreams as important, and willing to listen to them. Most western people don't think of God as personal sadly, that He actually speaks in different ways. No wonder you hardly hear of experiences around here like that.
Quote from: MusicLover123 on November 01, 2018, 02:48:51 AM
Regarding the 2 way conversation thing, we are told to "test every Spirit." Thanks to someone else's comment here, In realize it does not say "reject every Spirit" but to test them. You know this by it exalting the one who sent it. If God sent it, it will exalt Him. Everything else though, if it does not exalt God, you know to not listen to it.
Discernment will go to those who ask for it, and if it is His will. I question a couple things from there, but mostly it seems OK. This rule of discernment applies to anything though. Including hearing God's voice, dreams, visions, taken up in the Spirit, etc.
I also realize now why God calls a lot of Muslims out through dreams. They see dreams as important, and willing to listen to them. Most western people don't think of God as personal sadly, that He actually speaks in different ways. No wonder you hardly hear of experiences around here like that.
Are you interested in pursuing doing 2-way dialogue with God? Besides Mark Holloway, some others that have done it are
David Manuel, _Once Upon a Prayer: How to Hear God in Your Heart_ (2004), 111pp.
Merlin Carothers, _Prison to Praise_ (1970)
Bob Beaudine, _2 Chairs: The Secret That Changes Everything_ (2018), 170pp.
Brad Jersak and Eden Jersak, _Rivers from Eden: 40 Days of Intimate Conversation with God_ (2004), 175pp.
"Discernment will go to those who ask for it"
Practicing helps, too.
Hebrews 5:14 (KJV)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews+5:14&version=KJV
But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
I'm not against those things happening. In fact, I would like to have lots of those experiences, like the ones I listed. Unbelief is my main problem though, if it was/will be just all in my own head.
I do write down my experiences, and things I think God told me. Other than maybe a couple short tines, it haven't been "2 way conversations" yet.
I'm not interested in anybody's coaching. When I pray and study I've learned to also 'listen'. Just a matter of quietness of Spirit.. seeking.. a "waiting upon Him".. the teacher I trust is the Holy Spirit .. Which also, is different from my own heart / self interest. Like anything.. practice, consistency, or, I.e. faithfulness, and experience.. A big diversion these days, I think, is the Internet! :laughing7: An open door for communicating the great news, but too much if we find ourselves neglecting our quality time with Him, via His Word and Spirit (prayer), the bread & wine? If we don't feed our spirit both.. the fruit will tend to wither on the vine..
Hope I don't sound argumentative. :eek: I've always shied away from teachers and teachings. But of course I know there is many/some good, even needed(?) teachers! :gsmile:
Quote from: DavidFord on October 30, 2018, 04:06:29 AM
Quote from: CST on October 29, 2018, 01:44:16 PM
Quote from: DavidFord on October 27, 2018, 05:19:14 PM
"Jesus presumably believed the Genesis creation myth"
What leads you to conclude that "the Genesis creation myth" is a "myth"?
"Jesus presumably believed... not in evolution of life"
'Evolution' has numerous definitions. Meaning there of [CST]"evolution"?
Do you think Jesus was involved in the creation of: matter-energy? biology?
"I think at least as possible, if not more so, He was fully aware these beliefs were incorrect"
Do you think Jesus believed things that Jesus believed "were incorrect"?
I probably shouldn't really use the word 'myth' is has baggage I don't really want to bring in, however it's also simple for shorthand conversation.
Evolution may have many definitions but not of the feature it the most literal readings of God creating the world in an historic seven day period. According to that God just built everything and assembled it in situ.
No, Jesus wouldn't believe anything He know to be incorrect, but He would know that other members of society believed them and may employ them for use as lessons if they served the term, unless there is a more major issue of honesty here which i don't yet see the ramifications off. But this seems difficult to believe but it would seem to require God to tell us everything and withhold nothing lest He be accused of deceit by omission and that doesn't seem to be how things are prevented. God isn't held as deceiving us by forbidding John from writing down what the seven thunders said.
What leads you to conclude that "the Genesis creation myth" is a "myth" (or whatever less-baggage word or phrase you wish to substitute)?
"Evolution... definitions but not of the feature it the most literal readings of God creating the world in an historic seven day period"
If 'evolution' is defined as 'change over time,' then "God creating the world in an historic seven day period" has the world undergoing evolution/'change over time' during the 7 days.
"Jesus presumably believed... not in evolution of life" Meaning there of [CST]"evolution"?
"Jesus wouldn't believe anything He know to be incorrect"
Agreed. Do you think that Jesus' remarks about demons were remarks that Jesus believed to be correct?
This is not the thread to discuss most of those things, we're hugely off topic already and I've alluded to my feelings on another thread recently. Do I believe Jesus remarks about demons were remarks He believed to be correct? As long as you remember He was speaking in parables, yes. If you think He was trying to teach people actual demons directly exist as we tend to understand them your mistaken.
Quote from: DavidFord on October 30, 2018, 04:22:10 AM
Quote from: CST on October 29, 2018, 01:44:16 PM
Quote from: DavidFord on October 27, 2018, 05:19:14 PM
Do pregnant women that go to abortuaries to get their children killed have "a mental disorder"? Do individuals that perform human sacrifices as part of their witchcraft practices have "a mental disorder"?
In both cases, some of them. Do of them are just some form of wicked, but they don't have to have a demon for that. It's a binary choice between 'demon' or 'mental illness' for the explanation of human wickedness.
You think demons don't exist, so you can't use 'demonic influence' to explain any wickedness.
A Nazi plucked the beautiful eyes of a Jewish girl out of her head, while her mother watched. Did that plucking arise from "a mental disorder"?
What's your view of the remark below?
Ana Mendez Ferrell, _Regions of Captivity_ (2015), 171pp., 80.
https://www.amazon.com/Regions-Captivity-Ana-Mendez-Ferrell/dp/1933163224/
He [Hitler] studied the occult extensively. The devil asked him to reproduce a replica of hell on earth.
I don't believe demons exist as generally understood and I don't believe they have the effects the are purported to have. I'm not complete closed to the idea that the only source for evil in the world is man. The term demonic influence can be held as valid especially if people allow themselves to be influence by it. People have committed murders after watching horror movies. None of the demons in horror movies exist but the effect is the same.
Quote from: DavidFord on October 30, 2018, 04:39:23 AM
Quote from: CST on October 29, 2018, 01:44:16 PM
You notice that in the Bible demons aren't generally shown as worshipping God in any capacity. I've always thought of Dagon as a graven image, from the hands and imagination of men. A will-less statue which God can easily manipulate in order to prove this point and there's no actual supernatural being connected to it.
Do you think it's possible for a non-sentient/non-conscious entity to: believe something? will something? ask for permission?
James 2:19
https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/James%202:19
DLNT You believe that God is one? You do well. Even the demons believe and shudder!
YLT thou -- thou dost believe that God is one; thou dost well, and the demons believe, and they shudder!
Mt 12:44
https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/Matthew%2012:44
DLNT Then it says, 'I will return to my house from where I came-out'. And having come, it finds it being unoccupied, having been swept and put-in-order.
YLT then it saith, I will turn back to my house whence I came forth; and having come, it findeth [it] unoccupied, swept, and adorned:
Lk 8:32
https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/Luke%208:32
NIV A large herd of pigs was feeding there on the hillside. The demons begged Jesus to let them go into the pigs, and he gave them permission.
Hmm, the Rich Man in the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus asks for wated. He exists in the context of the parable and the lesson and can ask, just not in reality.
Quote from: marie glen on October 30, 2018, 02:42:27 PM
Quote from: CST on October 29, 2018, 01:44:16 PM
Indeed, so. You notice that in the Bible demons aren't generally shown as worshipping God in any capacity. I've always thought of Dagon as a graven image, from the hands and imagination of men. A will-less statue which God can easily manipulate in order to prove this point and there's no actual supernatural being connected to it.
True, I just thought it was interesting.
It is - very. I'm just not just how instructive it is when we don't know what the four words mean and why they are different.
Quote from: jabcat on October 30, 2018, 05:39:37 PM
Quick note - some of the graphic details/links have become disturbing to some member(s). Perhaps we could wrap up this dwelling on reported demons and demonic activity and move on to things more uplifting and profitable, i.e., Victorious :) . That would keep the thread from getting locked. Thanks.
I'd started creating my reply before I saw this, I don't think the mentioned inks are helpful because I think they're a bunch of lies from false people so I don't read them and am all the more glad I didn't. Yet the tangent seems generally relevant to the subject of the thread so I'm going to stop replying for the moment now although I'm not entirely satisfied with doing so.
Quote from: CST on November 01, 2018, 05:38:15 PM
I'm not complete closed to the idea that the only source for evil in the world is man.
How about angels?-- the OT and especially the NT make many mentions of angels. Do you think angels exist as a source for good in the world?
Matthew 18:10 (HCSB)
https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?qs_version=HCSB&quicksearch=angel&limit=500
"See that you don't look down on one of these little ones, because I tell you that in heaven their angels continually view the face of My Father in heaven.
Quote from: MusicLover123 on November 01, 2018, 05:03:16 AM
I'm not against those things happening. In fact, I would like to have lots of those experiences, like the ones I listed. Unbelief is my main problem though, if it was/will be just all in my own head.
I do write down my experiences, and things I think God told me. Other than maybe a couple short tines, it haven't been "2 way conversations" yet.
Here's one way to push past unbelief/ doubt when doing 2-way dialogues with God:
How to Hear God's Voice
https://www.cwgministries.org/Four-Keys-to-Hearing-Gods-Voice
I have found two-way journaling to be a fabulous catalyst for clearly discerning God's inner, spontaneous flow, because as I journal I am able to write in faith for long periods of time, simply believing it is God. I know that what I believe I have received from God must be tested. However, testing involves doubt and doubt blocks divine communication, so I do not want to test while I am trying to receive. (See James 1:5-8.) With journaling, I can receive in faith, knowing that when the flow has ended I can test and examine it carefully.
_The Message of Sadhu Sundar Singh: A Study in Mysticism on Practical Religion_, by B.H. Streeter (1921), 100-102 https://archive.org/stream/themessageofsadh00streuoft/themessageofsadh00streuoft_djvu.txt
https://preview.tinyurl.com/y294ubn2 which redirects to a specific page of https://books.google.com/books?id=w0AXAAAAYAAJ
hat tip: Peter Tan, _The Spiritual World_ (2007), 144pp., Appendix
http://johannministries.com/site/messages/book.html
hat tip for Peter Tan: Praying Medic, _Seeing in the Spirit Made Simple_ (2015), 157pp., 43
https://www.amazon.com/Seeing-Spirit-Made-Simple-Kingdom/dp/0692427929/
HELL
"I was also told that the love of God operates even in Hell. God does not shine in His full light, because those there could not bear it, but He gradually shows them more and more light, and by and by brings them on and moves their conscience towards something better, although they think that the desire is entirely their own. Thus God works on their minds from within, something in the same way, though in the opposite direction, as that in which Satan suggests temptation to us here. Thus, what with God's work within and the Light without, almost all those in Hell will ultimately be brought to Christ's feet. It will perhaps take millions of ages, but when it is attained they will be full of joy and thankfulness towards God; though they will still be less happy than those who have accepted Christ on earth. Thus Hell also is a training school, a place of preparation for Home. Those in Hell know that it is not their home because they suffer there. Men were not created for Hell and therefore do not enjoy it, and, when there, desire to escape to Heaven. They do so, but they find Heaven even more uncongenial than Hell, so they return. But this convinces them that there is something wrong in their lives, and thus they are gradually led to repentance. At least, that is the case with the majority, but there are some few personalities, Satan for instance, in regard to whom I was told, 'Don't ask about them.' And so I didn't like to ask, but I hoped that for them also there was some hope.
"They also told me that the Saints help in the work of saving souls in Hell, because there can be no idleness in Heaven. Those in Hell will ultimately be brought to Heaven like the prodigal son, but with regard to the ultimate fate of a certain number you must not ask." The Sadhu is inclined to think that perhaps these few will be annihilated.
"Once I said, 'So many people will be lost because they have not heard of Christ.' They said, 'The contrary will be the case; very few will be lost.' There is a kind of heavenly joke, no, joke is not a good word for it. 'Very few will be lost but many will be saved. It is so, but don't tell' they said, as it were, in jest, 'because it will make men careless, and we want them to enjoy the First Heaven-- that is the Heaven on earth-- as well.' "
"If there were no hope for all the non-Christians in the world and all the Christians who die in sin, God would stop creating men. We must do our part here on earth to save sinners, but if they refuse we need not be without hope for them."
The Sadhu's "universalism" recalls the famous "Shewing" to Mother Juliana of Norwich, "All manner of things shall be well," and her comments thereon except that her respect for the authority of the Church precludes her making any suggestion how this may be possible. The Sadhu faithfully obeys the injunction, "Don't tell." In his popular teachings, as we shall see in the next chapter, he stresses the need of repentance, and the certainty of immediate judgment in the next life, but he never speaks of his hope of ultimate salvation even for the unrepentant.
As you probably know, the study apps and programs - as far as I know - don't work well for copy and pasting the interlinear word for word of verses, so I look for the closest translation (available) to copy/paste.
As we know, the word translated by King James' translators (and others?) as hell in the OT, was "sheol".
According to the OT "all go to one place" (Ecclesiastes 3:19-20). Psalm 89:48 says, "What man can live and never see death? Who can deliver his soul from the power of Sheol?"
Job said "oh if only you, LORD, would hide me in sheol" (Job 13:14). When Jacob thought Joseph was killed by wild animals, he said "I will go down to sheol grieving.." To a subterranean basement? Or "I will go to my grave grieving"..?
Ecclesiastes 9:10 says (suggests? no, lol) "All that your hand finds to do, with your power do, for there is no work, and device, and knowledge, and wisdom in Sheol where you (we, all) are going." Youngs Literal Version
I thought I would look at the verbs of the verse -
No work - from H4639 - maaseh - "a deed, work.. translated as no accomplishing, achieving, activity, deeds, actions, etc." -- From "asah" - H6213 - "accomplish, do, make" ----- No doing? in sheol.
No device - H2808 - cheshbon - "reckoning, account" - No reckoning?!
No knowledge - H1847 - daath - "knowledge" -- From "yada" H3045 - "to know" ---- Is this where that annoying yada, yada, yada comes from? :laughing7: No knowing.
And, no wisdom - H2451 - chokmah - "wisdom" -- From H2449 - chakam - "to be wise"
The words with links interlinear on biblehub -
https://biblehub.com/interlinear/ecclesiastes/9-10.htm
:2c:no work,wisdom,knowledge...ofcoarse...for we can do NOTHING[vanity]of ourselves. But..if the same spirit that was in Christ..isin you
then..you can do allthings...and nothing is impossible foryou.
our flesh 'rests/dissolves/returnsto dust' sparedfrom the 'sin works' imposed onit..by the princeof this world.Flesh and blood does
notinherit...but the new spiritual creature does.
our terresteral 'body consciouness' will be dissolved.....'whether in the body or not,Iknow not"is a small glimse of this 'change?
donot eat of that tree or ye shall die in the day[no flesh lived past the 1000 year day] thus God in His mercy give the free gift
of eternallife unto man...that which was sown in weaknes/corruption shall be raised up anew creation in spirit..with power/incorruption
and immortality[nomore death]
satan and his demons will receive what they dished out to man....their 'flesh' will also dissolve and disappear in the LOF.
yes..they have 'flesh'made of invisible dust of heaven. It is notof the same 'type' as Jesus said when He appeared after resurrection.
GOD IS NOT COUNTING OUR TRESSPASSES AGAINST OUR ETERNAL LIVES[the new creature]though man has reaped what satan
has sownunto our corruptible weak flesh..even the suffering/corruption and death of our terrestrial flesh.
If He died for us while we were still 'sinners=in corruption] willHe not freely give us allthings? Really,you think God isgoing to torment
the 'NEW INCORRUPTIBLE/IMMORTAL CREATURE RAISED UP IN CHRIST'S IMAGE?"
_Visions of The Spiritual World_ by Sadhu Sundar Singh (1926)
https://archive.org/stream/VisionsOfTheSpiritualWorldBySadhuSundarSingh-1926-UploadedBy/VisionsOfTheSpiritualWorldBySadhuSundarSingh-1926_djvu.txt
The Manifestation of Christ
I saw in a vision the spirit of an idolater, on reaching the world of spirits, begin at once to search for his god. Then the saints said to him, "There is no god here save the One True God, and Christ, Who is His manifestation." At this the man was a good deal astonished, but being a sincere seeker after truth, he frankly admitted that he had been in error. He eagerly sought to know the correct view of truth, and asked if he might see the Christ. Shortly after this Christ manifested Himself in a dim light to him, and to others who had newly arrived in the world of spirits, because at this stage they could not have endured a full exhibition of His glory, for His glory is so surpassing that even the angels look on Him with difficulty, and cover their faces with their wings (Isaiah vi. 2). When He does reveal Himself to any one He takes into account the particular stage of progress to which that soul has attained, so He appears dimly, or in the fuller light of His glory, that the sight of Him may be endured. So, when these spirits saw Christ in this dim but attractive light, they were filled with a joy and peace which is beyond our power to describe. Bathed in the rays of His life-giving light, and with the waves of His love, which constantly flow out from Him, flowing over them, all their error was washed away. Then with all their hearts they acknowledged Him as the Truth, and found healing, and, bowing in lowly adoration before Him, thanked and praised Him. And the saints who had been appointed for their instruction also rejoiced over them.
_Visions of The Spiritual World_ by Sadhu Sundar Singh - 1926
https://archive.org/stream/VisionsOfTheSpiritualWorldBySadhuSundarSingh-1926-UploadedBy/VisionsOfTheSpiritualWorldBySadhuSundarSingh-1926_djvu.txt
Death of a Philosopher
The soul of a German philosopher entered into the world of spirits and saw from afar the incomparable glory of the spiritual world and the boundless happiness of its people. He was delighted with what he saw, but his stubborn intellectualism stood in the way of his entering into it and enjoying its happiness. Instead of admitting that it was real, he argued thus with himself, "There is no doubt at all that I see all this, but what proof is there that it has objective existence, and is not some illusion conjured up by my mind? From end to end of all this scene I will apply the tests of logic, philosophy and science, and then only will I be convinced that it has a reality of its own and is no illusion."
Then the angels answered him, "It is evident from your speech that your intellectualism has warped your whole nature, for as spiritual and not bodily eyes are needed to see the spiritual world, so spiritual understanding is necessary to comprehend its reality, and not mental exercises in the fundamentals of logic and philosophy. Your science that deals with material facts has been left behind with your physical skull and brain in the world. Here, only that spiritual wisdom is of use which arises out of the fear and love of God."
Then said one of the angels to another, "What a pity it is that people forget that precious word of our Lord, 'Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall in no wise enter into the Kingdom of Heaven'" (Matt, xviii. 3).
I asked one of the angels what the end of this man would be, and he replied, "If this man's life had been altogether bad, then he would at once have joined the spirits of darkness, but he is not without a moral sense, so for a very long time he will wander blindly round in the dim light of the lower parts of the intermediate state, and keep on bumping his philosophical head, until, tired of his foolishness, he repents. Then he will be ready to receive the necessary instruction from the angels appointed for that purpose, and, when instructed, will be fit to enter into the fuller light of God in the higher sphere."
This is a mind-blowing book.
_My Journey Beyond Beyond: An autobiographical record of deep calling to deep in pursuit of intimacy with God_ by Mike Parsons (2018), 244pp., 206-208
https://www.amazon.com/My-Journey-Beyond-Autobiographical-Intimacy/dp/1789630088/
Jesus... gave me a silver trumpet and pointed towards a door that I had not seen there before. I asked, "Where did that door come from?" Smiling, Jesus said, "It has always been there, but your mind would not allow you to see it."
The door opened and we walked into a place I could only describe as fire but as I discovered myself, when engaging the fires of the judgment seat or the altar, this was also a manifestation of God who is a consuming fire. Fire is an expression of God's love, not punishment, and what I observed was multitudes of people standing consumed by fire, in anguish or torment of soul facing the reality of their life's choices. There were no demons or devils with pitchforks-- those ideas are more aligned with Dante's _Inferno_ and Hieronymus Bosch's paintings than the reality of what I was seeing-- and God was certainly not punishing, torturing or tormenting anyone either. ....
I looked at Jesus and he was saying nothing. So rather tongue-tied and feebly I began to preach the good news. When I finished, Jesus turned to walk out and I thought "I am not staying here on my own." Noticing the silver trumpet in my hand, I thought I had better blow it, so on my way to the door I did so. We walked what seemed like a long way through the fiery tunnel and back through the door, which now had the appearance of a fiery sword. We turned towards the door and I saw that some people had followed us through the fire and as they approached the door, they kneeled and I heard them confess Jesus as Lord and walk through the door, entering through the gate into Zion.
I turned to look at Jesus and said "What have you done to me now? I am ruined! What am I supposed to say to people?" Jesus smiled again and said "Tell them that you are doing what I did, and that I have told everyone to do what I did and greater." ....
I have been back to the fire many times now for each of my family lines with varying degrees of success-- but tens of thousands have responded, accepting and confessing Jesus as Lord and joining the ranks of the cloud of witnesses. .... Since beginning to share this publicly as others are now doing, I have had many emails and messages thanking me because others have had similar experiences, but have been apprehensive to share them for fear of being branded a heretic.
245. What Jesus Did - 2 years ago
https://freedomarc.blog/2018/04/13/245-what-jesus-did/
Some years ago, I was a given a seal and staff and went through a door on Wisdom's heights. It was a tunnel of fire which opened into a place of extreme restriction and sadness: satan's trophy room. There I saw 3 things:
The sparkling diamond trophies of the destinies of those living and dead who had not believed the good news
Stolen mantles and crowns
An area of the heritage of my generational family lines
Now Jesus took me back there. He showed me the heritage area and I looked at the family line of my father's father. Jesus said to me, "Do you want to see this restored?" I asked "How?"
Into the fire
Then He showed me a door I had not seen when I came before. He explained that the door had been there all along, but my framework of beliefs would not allow me to see it. Then He gave me a silver heralding trumpet and we went through the door into the fire. There were thousands of people there from that part of my family line, not talking to one another; isolated individuals who appeared to be in anguish of soul. They were not being tormented; there was no devil there with a pitchfork or anything like that. They were there, on their own, in a place of consuming fire.
So I looked to Jesus, hoping He was going to do something. He just stood there looking right back at me. So eventually I preached the good news to them, though not very well! I felt rather tongue-tied and overwhelmed. Overwhelmed with love, actually, and of course completely unprepared. But at least I told them that they could accept Jesus and come out.
I figured Jesus must have given me the trumpet for a reason, so I blew it. He turned to walk out, and there was no way I was going to stay in there on my own, so I followed Him back through the tunnel of fire. I went through the door back to Wisdom's heights and this time I saw that the door was like a fiery sword (I knew that a fiery sword guards the way to the Tree of Life).
I looked back and a few hundred people had followed us to the door. As they approached I saw them kneel, I heard them confess Jesus as Lord and they walked out and through the gates into Zion.
Authority
I turned to Jesus. "What have you done to me? I'm in trouble now! How do I explain this?"
Jesus said "Just tell people that you are doing what I did -- and I told you to do what I did, and greater things. This is just the beginning".
I asked Jesus why so few of them had followed us out of the fire. If it was me and someone offered me a way out, I would have been out of there as fast as I could. This is what He told me:
"You can only preach with authority to the degree that the fire has consumed generational things in you. That is why not everyone responded. Keep presenting yourself to the fire of the altar and you will be able to reach more of your generational lines. Embrace the coals to touch areas of your life that have come from your generations; that will give you authority."
So I present myself as a living sacrifice on the altar in the temple every day.
Back again -- and again
Since that first time, I have been back to engage each of my 4 generational family lines and preached the good news to them. When I was in China in 2017 someone gave me a silver heralding trumpet just like the one Jesus had given me. One morning while I was there I woke at 3am and felt a strong desire to engage the altar and ask for the fiery coals to touch a specific area of behaviour, the area of divorce.
As I did, I began to feel intensely loving towards everyone in my generations who had been divorced, not angry or resentful, and I began forgiving them and blessing them. Once I finished I went to the fiery place again. I preached to all my generational lines with boldness, blew the silver trumpet and this time many more responded. They followed me out, came to the door, confessed Jesus as Lord and went through.
Later, on a Sunday morning here at Freedom as I was embracing the fire another area surfaced. I again went back and preached with renewed boldness and once again many more responded. Another time, I wondered what it might be like if I took communion down into the fire. So I went back there and offered communion, the body and blood of Jesus, to those who were in the fire. Yet again, many responded!
More recently I became aware that there were many in that place with fractured souls, what we sometimes call "stuck parts", mostly caused by trauma in their lives. They were double-minded, triple-minded or worse and were unable to make a decision to follow Jesus. So I asked Jesus to come with me and I told them they could come to the Prince of Peace (shalom means "wholeness") and be made whole. Vast numbers of them did so.
My strong desire is to empty that place, but for that to happen I need to embrace the fire myself. I need to be good news and demonstrate that good news in my own life.
I have now had many experiences of going into the place of fire both for personal refining and on rescue missions. The fire of God is for purifying and refining and removing all the dross in people's lives. They are waiting for someone to come and share the good news with them.
Testimony
One day, before I even mentioned this publicly, a friend I meet with online said he had something to share with me. He had been engaging in heaven when some of his family members came up to him. He was surprised and said "I didn't know you were believers in Jesus!" And they said, "We weren't. But we remembered that you said your whole household would be saved, and Jesus came and preached the good news to us, and that's why we are here." This really did not fit my friend's theological box, as he put it. He was encouraged when I then shared my experiences too.
Since then (and especially after this topic cropped up in several of my regular online mentoring groups) I have had conversations with others and I have heard many testimonies of people who have gone into the fire and preached the good news as Jesus did. After I shared this in the Vision Destiny 2017 series I had a number of emails from people thanking me for opening up the discussion as they had been afraid of sharing their experiences because of the reaction they knew it would cause (a reaction I have experienced for myself).
Q: Why would it had been better if Judas was never born if even he is saved by Jesus?
A: Hell is a very unpleasant place to be. A stillborn baby goes right to heaven. Judas died and made a trip to hell. Who knows, maybe he's still there. But even Judas will eventually be in heaven, if he isn't there already.
It is this believers opinion that if we understand that what they did was evil along with the understanding they are receiving back the same for what they did, it goes against what Jesus taught "do not repay evil for evil"
It just doesn't make sense to me that those who torment will be tormented.
But again, this is just my opinion
Quote from: jugghead on August 20, 2020, 06:14:14 PM
It just doesn't make sense to me that those who torment will be tormented.
Does this make sense?:
Colossians 3:25 (NIV), https://biblehub.com/colossians/3-25.htm
Anyone who does wrong will be repaid for their wrongs, and there is no favoritism.
Proverbs 14:14 (NIV), https://biblehub.com/proverbs/14-14.htm
The faithless will be fully repaid for their ways, and the good rewarded for theirs.
Proverbs 13:21 (NIV), https://biblehub.com/proverbs/13-21.htm
Trouble pursues the sinner, but the righteous are rewarded with good things.
Revelation 18:6 (NIV), https://biblehub.com/revelation/18-6.htm
Give back to her as she has given; pay her back double for what she has done.
Pour her a double portion from her own cup.
Matthew 7:2 (NIV), https://biblehub.com/matthew/7-2.htm
For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged,
and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.
Galatians 6:7 (NIV), https://biblehub.com/galatians/6-7.htm
Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows.
Many of the dead suffer, and the living can help them.
_Healing the Family Tree_ (1999) by Kenneth McAll
https://www.amazon.com/Healing-Family-Tree-Kenneth-McAll/dp/0859695328/
The author explains how through his medical and religious experiences he has discovered another method of healing. He believes that many supposedly "incurable" patients are the victims of ancestral control. He therefore seeks to liberate them from this control. By drawing up a family tree he can identify the ancestor who is causing his patient harm. He then cuts the bond between the ancestor and the patient by celebrating, with a clergyman, a service of Holy Communion in which he delivers the tormented ancestor to God.
Re: the nature of hell, do you think it:
is a place of never-ending torture?
serves a beneficial purpose that ultimately is for the good of those that go there?
Do you think Jesus has burdened his followers with the well-being of the living?
Do you think Jesus:
exercised god-like power?
wants his followers to imitate him in exercising god-like power for the benefit of others?
"ceased, just as Paul said they would"
Reference?
Was Jesus mistaken in saying this?:
John 14:12 (NIV) Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father.
Supposedly, in the 1st third of the 1900s, Sadhu Sundar Singh met a guy in the Himalayas who was a close relative of someone converted by Francis Xavier-- 400+ years earlier.
Apparently in the documentary movie series that includes "Finger of God," in some of the bonus material, someone says he met someone deep in the forest (of the Amazon?) who was praying as God led him, and he was 140+ years old.
"there is no hell"
Has anyone ever been in a hellish realm?
Luke 16 (Aramaic Bible in Plain English), biblehub
19 "There was a certain rich man, and he wore fine white linen and purple and everyday he celebrated luxuriously." 20 "And there was a certain poor man whose name was Lazar and he lay at the gate of that rich man, being stricken with abscesses." 21 "And he longed to fill his belly with the fragments that fell from the rich man's table, but also the dogs would come licking his abscesses." 22 "But that poor man died and Angels brought him to The Bosom of Abraham. And the rich man also died and he was buried."
23 *"And suffering in Sheol, he lifted up his eyes from afar off and he saw Abraham, and Lazar in his bosom." 24 "And he called in a loud voice and he said, 'My father, Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazar to dip the tip of his finger in water and moisten my tongue for me; behold, I am suffering in this flame.' "*
A Course in Miracles -- Chapter 2 -- III. The Altar of God
https://acourseinmiraclesnow.com/course-miracles-chapter-2-iii-altar-god/
T-2.III.3. The acceptance of the Atonement by everyone is only a matter of time. 2 This may appear to contradict free will because of the inevitability of the final decision, but this is not so. 3 You can temporize and you are capable of enormous procrastination, but you cannot depart entirely from your Creator, Who set the limits on your ability to miscreate. 4 An imprisoned will engenders a situation which, in the extreme, becomes altogether intolerable. 5 Tolerance for pain may be high, but it is not without limit. 6 Eventually everyone begins to recognize, however dimly, that there must be a better way. 7 As this recognition becomes more firmly established, it becomes a turning point. 8 This ultimately reawakens spiritual vision, simultaneously weakening the investment in physical sight. 9 The alternating investment in the two levels of perception is usually experienced as conflict, which can become very acute. 10 But the outcome is as certain as God.
Quote from: CST on September 03, 2018, 01:28:45 PM
John Milton (imagining the mind of the Devil) - "It is better to rule in Hell than serve in Heaven"
The Bible (according to Revelation 20:10) '...and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulphur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.'
(and Matthew 8:29) 'And behold, they cried out, "What have you to do with us, O Son of God? Have you come here to torment us before the time?"'
The Devil is not in Hell to rule it or to continue to torment those He deceived and tormented on Earth. Neither so are the demons. Hell is exclusively a place of torment and none but torment has any authority over others there. It is possible that this is represented, for a time, by the presence in the Lake of Fire of Death and Hades but no the suggestion that demons torment people in Hell is not Biblical.
the torment may be the fire o Gods LOVE burning away dross, filth, decay...same the WORM....worms eat decaying flesh....not VINDICTIVE torment/ torture for Gods PLEASURE...NO...NEVER !...btw, HELL word isnt in Bible, its GEHENNA.
Young Criminal Attempts Suicide, Leaves His Body, Enters "Hell"-- And Is Shown the Errors of His Ways
https://www.theepochtimes.com/young-criminal-attempts-suicide-leaves-his-body-enters-hell-and-is-shown-the-errors-of-his-ways_4768925.html
A spirit being took his hand and pulled him away. He could see his own body and a doctor and nurse working to revive him. The being took him into a "column of light." At first, he was in a place that he thought was heaven, with cloud-like walls. There he saw his grandmother.
Then suddenly, he was in a foul-smelling field with people who had jackal faces. A demonic creature grabbed him and brought him to a place with a bunch of cubes stacked up.
The demonic creature told him that each person gets a custom-made hell.
"He told me this was hell, and in every cube was a custom-made hell for every soul," Jeffrey said. "He explained that people adapt to every kind of hell, and some people are more tolerant of some things than others, so hell is ever changing. He took great joy out of watching people suffer."
Jeffrey was sucked into one of the cubes, where people fed him rank food and laughed.
Then he was shown flashes of all the bad things he had ever done. "I was being put into other people's shoes as I was doing bad things to them," he said. "I could see how insensitive I was to people and didn't even know it. It was excruciating and overwhelming to relive things that I had forgotten about, or just didn't care about. I was made to feel the way I made others feel."
....
"I began to sob quietly as the flashes of my evil ways rushed in, and I heard a voice. It said, "If you ask him, maybe he will save you."
Jeffrey pleaded again and again for salvation.
He was brought before a spiritual being who asked what brought him there. Jeffrey replied that the world is not fair and he didn't want to be a part of it anymore. .... The being explained that Jeffrey had begged to be born into the material world, and had even chosen when and to whom he would be born.
....
He was then shown future events, including how he would break his back and how that would impact him. These things later came true.
He was told that he had chosen these things for a reason before he was born, aware of the consequences, and he must return to finish them. He didn?t want to go back, but as he returned to his body he felt comfort and peace from God.