The problem of evil

[eaglesway]

 The problem of evil is responsibility, or accountability. Evil does not just "go away". Transgressions forgiven do not just evaporate- they are forgiven. This transaction required Christ to assume responsibility for our evil, for which we are forever greatful, of course. He has also taken responsibilty for the sins of the whole world, becoming accountable for all of us at the cross.

Yet, accessing the result of His act requires something of us. We are forgiven, but it doesnt do us much good until we recognize our need for it. So God labors within us and without, to bring us to transparency, humility, meekness, and contritness before Him- not because He desires obeisance, but rather because He desires our fellowship and because He knows that love only flows through a humble transparent heart.

Of course, transparency scares us to death(literally and figuratively) so we see Adam and Eve, hiding from God covered by leaves.

Some people believe that at the Great White Throne, God will just declare amnesty to all. Personally, I see the Great White Throne as a metaphor for an experience beyond mortal life and words in which every being who ever lived will find transparency and humility. Some, who found it in this life, and walked in it, will rejoice at the GWT, as it is written in Romans 2, "Their consciences excusing them on the day when God judges the secrets of men's hearts by Jesus Christ". Others will not rejoice. They will still be hiding. They will still be justifying themselves. They will need whatever the LOF actually is(I think it is like an intervention for a drug addict) and God will give it to them, "until every knee bows and every tongue confesses" or in other words, until everyone is transparent and humble-" a broken and a contrite heart You will never cast away".

Evil/sin/iniquity/transgression does not just go away. It didnt, and wont just "disappear" for all or for anyone.

Jesus' death on a cross was the necessary action, His becoming accountable for all of our evil deeds and thoughts, reconciling us and cleansing us from all iniquity.

I think sometimes one of the reasons that believers struggle with sin and "sins" after salvation is that some need continual reminders that forgiveness and propitiation- Someone else assuming responsibility and accountability for my evil- is the only way we ever became whole or holy or clean.

Otherwise we might get the idea that we had some righteousness in ourselves.

The problem of evil does not go away until there is a change of heart, a change of consciousness("having our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil consciousness"). However it comes, whenever it comes, this is surely so.

God will bring us all into His transparency- I AM That I AM. In Christ crucified He was being absolutely transparent speaking to every being that ever lived, "This is how much I love you".

[sheila]

 :thumbsup:     I see the GWT as the true judgements of God being  revealed to the people....and when His

  judgements are manifest..the people learn 'righteousness' I see this as the culmination of the free gift

of righteousness through Christ......for the people will see what they had not seen before,and hear what they

  had not heard before[I have much more to say to you,but at present ye can not bare it]

   the people will be given full/complete discernment of the wicked one/evil,what God has done and is doing

  the perfection in understanding..is the seeing eye to eye.......and all this shall give the clean cnscience

  and remove the shame off of the people[my people shall not be ashamed]   

   now the 'Leaves' of the TOL are for the healing of the nations...and this healing removes shame and gives a

clear conscience[for a stricken spirit is dryness to the bones]

   Children of understanding/wisdom will be the result.Wisdom from Above Is a Tree of Life

[Seth]

EW your post has me pondering. It's so true that evil does not simply go away when transgressions are forgiven. I have been pondering the atonement myself over the past few years. I was always taught that God needed Christ to die for sins so that God would be able to forgive sins. But then I think about all the times Jesus forgave sins before he died. He already had that authority. I think about how God forgave the Jews after the 70 year captivity long before Christ died on the cross. It makes me think that God doesn't actually need that human sacrifice to forgive sin, because that would make God restrained, or less sovereign. I'm thinking that God structured the Law the way he did so that in sending Christ to die, one of the many things it accomplished was to reveal the Love of God to mankind that Christ was willing to become a lamb to satisfy the Law. Maybe not because God was restrained by that to forgive sin, but so that the Jews would understand how much their Messiah loved them, to satisfy the requirements of their Law in his own flesh. Just things I wonder about.

[joeteekay]

Some people believe that at the Great White Throne, God will just declare amnesty to all. Personally, I see the Great White Throne as a metaphor for an experience beyond mortal life and words in which every being who ever lived will find transparency and humility. Some, who found it in this life, and walked in it, will rejoice at the GWT, as it is written in Romans 2, "Their consciences excusing them on the day when God judges the secrets of men's hearts by Jesus Christ". Others will not rejoice. They will still be hiding. They will still be justifying themselves. They will need whatever the LOF actually is(I think it is like an intervention for a drug addict) and God will give it to them, "until every knee bows and every tongue confesses" or in other words, until everyone is transparent and humble-" a broken and a contrite heart You will never cast away".

I learn't that the GWT was the time of the second resurrection and all not in the first would be given a period of time (100 years) in the flesh (?) to learn righteousness and experience the LOF which the elect go through in this eon. All then will be reconciled to God when every thing becomes all in all.

:Chinscratch:

[Cardinal]

EW your post has me pondering. It's so true that evil does not simply go away when transgressions are forgiven. I have been pondering the atonement myself over the past few years. I was always taught that God needed Christ to die for sins so that God would be able to forgive sins. But then I think about all the times Jesus forgave sins before he died. He already had that authority. I think about how God forgave the Jews after the 70 year captivity long before Christ died on the cross. It makes me think that God doesn't actually need that human sacrifice to forgive sin, because that would make God restrained, or less sovereign. I'm thinking that God structured the Law the way he did so that in sending Christ to die, one of the many things it accomplished was to reveal the Love of God to mankind that Christ was willing to become a lamb to satisfy the Law. Maybe not because God was restrained by that to forgive sin, but so that the Jews would understand how much their Messiah loved them, to satisfy the requirements of their Law in his own flesh. Just things I wonder about.

:cloud9: Just a thought to ponder (or not) here Seth.....I think He had that authority already because He had already gone to the cross and to the HOH within himself before He ever went to the literal one. The literal one was the body (flesh and soul) doing what it saw it's Head (Spirit) do already. The literal one was for OUR benefit, the natural mirrors the spiritual.

It was said that everything the Jews did was for our example; that includes the Jew named Yeshua. Why would we need a natural example of the things pertaining to the law and the temple/tabernacle, except to express spiritual things through natural? My  :2c:  Blessings....

[joeteekay]

EW your post has me pondering. It's so true that evil does not simply go away when transgressions are forgiven. I have been pondering the atonement myself over the past few years. I was always taught that God needed Christ to die for sins so that God would be able to forgive sins. But then I think about all the times Jesus forgave sins before he died. He already had that authority. I think about how God forgave the Jews after the 70 year captivity long before Christ died on the cross. It makes me think that God doesn't actually need that human sacrifice to forgive sin, because that would make God restrained, or less sovereign. I'm thinking that God structured the Law the way he did so that in sending Christ to die, one of the many things it accomplished was to reveal the Love of God to mankind that Christ was willing to become a lamb to satisfy the Law. Maybe not because God was restrained by that to forgive sin, but so that the Jews would understand how much their Messiah loved them, to satisfy the requirements of their Law in his own flesh. Just things I wonder about.

:cloud9: Just a thought to ponder (or not) here Seth.....I think He had that authority already because He had already gone to the cross and to the HOH within himself before He ever went to the literal one. The literal one was the body (flesh and soul) doing what it saw it's Head (Spirit) do already. The literal one was for OUR benefit, the natural mirrors the spiritual.

It was said that everything the Jews did was for our example; that includes the Jew named Yeshua. Why would we need a natural example of the things pertaining to the law and the temple/tabernacle, except to express spiritual things through natural? My  :2c:  Blessings....

He died on the cross or stake to the point of saying "I do not want to go through this" and sweated blood in His anguish. He did not already go to the cross before His physical crucifixion.  He did not feel like been there done that. IMO

[Seth]

:cloud9: Just a thought to ponder (or not) here Seth.....I think He had that authority already because He had already gone to the cross and to the HOH within himself before He ever went to the literal one.

This would have some interesting doctrinal implications. It would mean that literal blood was not needed to bring forgiveness. I definitely agree that Jesus was dead to self already, and was therefore not subject to the Law, to obey it, but rather he naturally walked the path of Love that the Law required. This gave him authority.

John Calvin reasoned that the cross was necessary to satisfy God's sense of justice and without Christ's death, that sense of Justice must overrule his desire to forgive.

Christ's actions in his earthly ministry seem to openly defy that doctrine which most Christians believe today. He forgave without the literal shedding of his blood first. BUT in order to release anyone from the Law for righteousness, he did need to die literally. I don't see God as restricted by the Law in forgiving mankind, but to release man from the Law and bring him into relationship with God, Christ showed the Love of God by becoming that Lamb.

Hebrews 9:22
And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission (concering the Law).

It seems to me that this is not saying that God cannot forgive whenever he wants to. He has the authority to forgive whenever he wants and showed it through Christ, who forgave people of sin who never even asked for that. However, he set up the Law to be unable to be phased out without shedding of blood so that Christ would show the Love of God in that one man died for all, a necessity to release the requirements of the Law from man to be bound, and then they can be saved from sin, through the Spirit which comes by faith.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Again, for our example of His humanity. Neither did He need to be tested by the devil in the wilderness, or be baptized of John, but He said to do it to fulfill all righteousness (as an example for us). My  :2c:

And the lamb slain from the foundation of the world? Where does that fit for you? Blessings....

[Seth]

Well, literalblood was required as Hebrews says and in reference to Christ's literal death, but not to make God able to forgive whenever he wants. God has always been able to do whatever he wants. Literal shedding of blood was required in order to move from the Old Covenant to the New Covenant. And  because God hard-coded blood sacrifice into the Law's demands, it made him able to reveal the Love he has for humanity in sending his Son to be that Lamb, and begin the process of ushering in a new covenant.

[sheila]

....the little children were partakers of flesh and blood,so,too,likewise He partook.

[eaglesway]

Actually Seth, I was trying to say that transgressions don't just go away- they are forgiven, and repentance must precede the benefits of forgiveness, even tho the forgiveness was given from the foundation of the world. :o) sorry if I was not clear, I was writing as it was coming up from the well.

Purge me with hyssop(bitter herb representing repentence, godly sorrow, humility) and I shall be clean.

My other point was that without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin- it doesnt just go away, the shed blood of Jesus takes it away. "Behold the Lamb who takes away the sin of the world". "For so it pleased the Father for all the fulness to dwell in Him and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself by the blood of His cross"

[eaglesway]

Joeteekay, I agree that Jesus had to experience the cross and it was terrible for Him. He wasnt just going thru the motions. He was a man suffering torture and death as a man.

[Seth]

Purge me with hyssop(bitter herb representing repentence, godly sorrow, humility) and I shall be clean.

Yes I agree. The cleaning happens through continued humility. If we confess our sins he is faithful to forgive AND cleanse us. I see it as the difference between being reconciled by his death and how much more so having been reconciled, saved through his life. The humility is inspired by the Spirit which is what does the cleansing.

My other point was that without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin- it doesnt just go away, the shed blood of Jesus takes it away. "Behold the Lamb who takes away the sin of the world"

Yes, this is what I have been pondering lately. Without blood here is no remission of sin concerning the Laws requirements. I don't take that to mean that God cannot forgive sin without blood sacrifice in general. Jesus proved that he could forgive sin without literal shedding of his blood. He did it all throughout his ministry. The no forgiveness without shedding of blood concerns the Laws requirements, not Gods ability to forgive anyone whenever he wanted. That's what I have been thinking about lately.

[eaglesway]

My personal opinion is that all forgiveness comes through the blood, which is not so much about "blood sacrifice", but the giving of one's life to save another's, for "the life is in the blood".

"No greater love has a man than this, that he lay down his life for a friend"

This is the reason that the blood is so powerful. The giving of the life, the shedding of the blood is the pouring out of one's life. The one who created the world by His word re-invigorated the world by His life, contained in His blood and poured into the soil of earth- all mankind, "He breathed the breath of life into the clay and it became a living soul".

The blood goes deeper, in my understanding, than just remitting sins under the law. Faith came before the Law.

Romans 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Psalm 19 "The heavens declare His glory and the firmament His handy-work/craftsmanship

2 Day unto day utters speech, and night unto night shows knowledge.

3 There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard.

4 Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them hath he set a tabernacle for the sun,


I believe the Law was about the beginnings of priesthood, and spreading it by teaching, in more detail, the glory of God- driving humilty more deeply nto the souls of His servants, for above all else, Israel was to be a Lampstand, a kingddom of priests, a holy nation

In following His usual way- the first creation was marred so that the new creation would understand even more deeply- and achieve the priesthood the marred vessel could not.

[Seth]

Jesus forgave before he shed his blood.

[eaglesway]

If you see the creation linear, so it was, but I believe God created all things from the sacrifice of Christ.the seed/the Logos) If He had not shed His blood(bear with my foolishness) He could not have forgiven before, during or after.

"He is before all things, and all things hold together in Him."

It played out in time, but it is the core of eternity and creation. it was His blood that certified the covenant. Without it none of the provisions of covenant would stand.

[eaglesway]

oh yeah, not expecting such a quick reply I amended my previous post.

[WhiteWings]

He died on the cross or stake to the point of saying "I do not want to go through this"

That's just one of the interpretations.

[Seth]

If you see the creation linear, so it was, but I believe God created all things from the sacrifice of Christ.the seed/the Logos) If He had not shed His blood(bear with my foolishness) He could not have forgiven before, during or after.

"He is before all things, and all things hold together in Him."

It played out in time, but it is the core of eternity and creation. it was His blood that certified the covenant. Without it none of the provisions of covenant would stand.

But if it played out non-linearly, then even faith is not necessary in linear time because everyone is already saved and therefore, nothing is necessary. If repentance and baptism is necessary for the remission of sin (Acts 2:38), then it would make sense to me that forgiveness in linear time would also have to wait for the blood sacrifice.

In other words, in linear time, things still need to play out in order.

"None of the provisions of the covenant would stand." That's what I am talking about. The death of Christ had to do with the provisions of the Mosaic covenant with respect to blood being necessary.

Hebrews 9:22
And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

Purging by blood was demanded according to the Law of Moses....for almost all things, not even for all things. This is why I believe Christ was able to forgive without having been sacrificed first. He was not subject to the Law, because the Law is not for the righteous, but the unrighteous.

oh yeah, not expecting such a quick reply I amended my previous post.

No problem, I think we were on at around the same time.

[WhiteWings]

God has always been able to do whatever he wants.

Wrong. God is bound by the laws, agreements, promises, etc. He made. It's against His very nature/personality to break promises. Breaking a promise means the promise was a lie. Can/does God lie? God is limited is lots of ways. Not by external forces but by His very own personality.

[eaglesway]

For so it pleased the Father to make all the fulness dwell in Him and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself through the blood of His cross Col 1

[Seth]

God has always been able to do whatever he wants.

Wrong. God is bound by the laws, agreements, promises, etc. He made. It's against His very nature/personality to break promises. Breaking a promise means the promise was a lie. Can/does God lie? God is limited is lots of ways. Not by external forces but by His very own personality.

I'm not talking about breaking promises. The LAW is for the unrighteous, not the righteous.

[eaglesway]

For so it pleased the Father to make all the fulness dwell in Him and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself through the blood of His cross Col 1

To me that means nothing that was, is, or will be reconciled is reconciled in any other way than through His blood.

[Seth]

For so it pleased the Father to make all the fulness dwell in Him and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself through the blood of His cross Col 1

Yes. Through the blood of the cross, the dividing line came down. I believe that's the reconciliation. The Law divided man and God because it required a temple overseen by men and a holiest place. He was hid away from the world. Christ ended that through his blood.

Why do you believe that God requires 1) repentance and 2) baptism for the remission of sin? I think because that is the reality of the shadow, of how the Israelites placed hands on the lamb to transfer their sin in type.

[eaglesway]

As Paul said, a new covenant requires new obedience.

Repentance has always been required, since the beginning. That is the covenant of Romans 1.

As I hav said before, I believe all the covenants are about the progression of priesthood. "He that overcomes will sit with me upon my Fathers throne and will inherit all things". The priesthood of sonship is a ministry of reconciliation. Acts2:38 is a declaration to the Sanhedrin(and anyone else who would become His disciple- a priest as He is) of what the terms of entering the new covenat are. It is a covenant of priesthood. God is having His kingdom of priests from among those whose faith allows them to obey. :2c: