The problem of evil is responsibility, or accountability. Evil does not just "go away". Transgressions forgiven do not just evaporate- they are forgiven. This transaction required Christ to assume responsibility for our evil, for which we are forever greatful, of course. He has also taken responsibilty for the sins of the whole world, becoming accountable for all of us at the cross.
Yet, accessing the result of His act requires something of us. We are forgiven, but it doesnt do us much good until we recognize our need for it. So God labors within us and without, to bring us to transparency, humility, meekness, and contritness before Him- not because He desires obeisance, but rather because He desires our fellowship and because He knows that love only flows through a humble transparent heart.
Of course, transparency scares us to death(literally and figuratively) so we see Adam and Eve, hiding from God covered by leaves.
Some people believe that at the Great White Throne, God will just declare amnesty to all. Personally, I see the Great White Throne as a metaphor for an experience beyond mortal life and words in which every being who ever lived will find transparency and humility. Some, who found it in this life, and walked in it, will rejoice at the GWT, as it is written in Romans 2, "Their consciences excusing them on the day when God judges the secrets of men's hearts by Jesus Christ". Others will not rejoice. They will still be hiding. They will still be justifying themselves. They will need whatever the LOF actually is(I think it is like an intervention for a drug addict) and God will give it to them, "until every knee bows and every tongue confesses" or in other words, until everyone is transparent and humble-" a broken and a contrite heart You will never cast away".
Evil/sin/iniquity/transgression does not just go away. It didnt, and wont just "disappear" for all or for anyone.
Jesus' death on a cross was the necessary action, His becoming accountable for all of our evil deeds and thoughts, reconciling us and cleansing us from all iniquity.
I think sometimes one of the reasons that believers struggle with sin and "sins" after salvation is that some need continual reminders that forgiveness and propitiation- Someone else assuming responsibility and accountability for my evil- is the only way we ever became whole or holy or clean.
Otherwise we might get the idea that we had some righteousness in ourselves.
The problem of evil does not go away until there is a change of heart, a change of consciousness("having our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil consciousness"). However it comes, whenever it comes, this is surely so.
God will bring us all into His transparency- I AM That I AM. In Christ crucified He was being absolutely transparent speaking to every being that ever lived, "This is how much I love you".
:thumbsup: I see the GWT as the true judgements of God being revealed to the people....and when His
judgements are manifest..the people learn 'righteousness' I see this as the culmination of the free gift
of righteousness through Christ......for the people will see what they had not seen before,and hear what they
had not heard before[I have much more to say to you,but at present ye can not bare it]
the people will be given full/complete discernment of the wicked one/evil,what God has done and is doing
the perfection in understanding..is the seeing eye to eye.......and all this shall give the clean cnscience
and remove the shame off of the people[my people shall not be ashamed]
now the 'Leaves' of the TOL are for the healing of the nations...and this healing removes shame and gives a
clear conscience[for a stricken spirit is dryness to the bones]
Children of understanding/wisdom will be the result.Wisdom from Above Is a Tree of Life
EW your post has me pondering. It's so true that evil does not simply go away when transgressions are forgiven. I have been pondering the atonement myself over the past few years. I was always taught that God needed Christ to die for sins so that God would be able to forgive sins. But then I think about all the times Jesus forgave sins before he died. He already had that authority. I think about how God forgave the Jews after the 70 year captivity long before Christ died on the cross. It makes me think that God doesn't actually need that human sacrifice to forgive sin, because that would make God restrained, or less sovereign. I'm thinking that God structured the Law the way he did so that in sending Christ to die, one of the many things it accomplished was to reveal the Love of God to mankind that Christ was willing to become a lamb to satisfy the Law. Maybe not because God was restrained by that to forgive sin, but so that the Jews would understand how much their Messiah loved them, to satisfy the requirements of their Law in his own flesh. Just things I wonder about.
Quote from: eaglesway on July 03, 2014, 03:37:52 PM
Some people believe that at the Great White Throne, God will just declare amnesty to all. Personally, I see the Great White Throne as a metaphor for an experience beyond mortal life and words in which every being who ever lived will find transparency and humility. Some, who found it in this life, and walked in it, will rejoice at the GWT, as it is written in Romans 2, "Their consciences excusing them on the day when God judges the secrets of men's hearts by Jesus Christ". Others will not rejoice. They will still be hiding. They will still be justifying themselves. They will need whatever the LOF actually is(I think it is like an intervention for a drug addict) and God will give it to them, "until every knee bows and every tongue confesses" or in other words, until everyone is transparent and humble-" a broken and a contrite heart You will never cast away".
I learn't that the GWT was the time of the second resurrection and all not in the first would be given a period of time (100 years) in the flesh (?) to learn righteousness and experience the LOF which the elect go through in this eon. All then will be reconciled to God when every thing becomes all in all.
:Chinscratch:
Quote from: Seth on July 03, 2014, 10:21:55 PM
EW your post has me pondering. It's so true that evil does not simply go away when transgressions are forgiven. I have been pondering the atonement myself over the past few years. I was always taught that God needed Christ to die for sins so that God would be able to forgive sins. But then I think about all the times Jesus forgave sins before he died. He already had that authority. I think about how God forgave the Jews after the 70 year captivity long before Christ died on the cross. It makes me think that God doesn't actually need that human sacrifice to forgive sin, because that would make God restrained, or less sovereign. I'm thinking that God structured the Law the way he did so that in sending Christ to die, one of the many things it accomplished was to reveal the Love of God to mankind that Christ was willing to become a lamb to satisfy the Law. Maybe not because God was restrained by that to forgive sin, but so that the Jews would understand how much their Messiah loved them, to satisfy the requirements of their Law in his own flesh. Just things I wonder about.
:cloud9: Just a thought to ponder (or not) here Seth.....I think He had that authority already because He had already gone to the cross and to the HOH within himself before He ever went to the literal one. The literal one was the body (flesh and soul) doing what it saw it's Head (Spirit) do already. The literal one was for OUR benefit, the natural mirrors the spiritual.
It was said that everything the Jews did was for our example; that includes the Jew named Yeshua. Why would we need a natural example of the things pertaining to the law and the temple/tabernacle, except to express spiritual things through natural? My :2c: Blessings....
Quote from: Cardinal on July 04, 2014, 12:04:19 AM
Quote from: Seth on July 03, 2014, 10:21:55 PM
EW your post has me pondering. It's so true that evil does not simply go away when transgressions are forgiven. I have been pondering the atonement myself over the past few years. I was always taught that God needed Christ to die for sins so that God would be able to forgive sins. But then I think about all the times Jesus forgave sins before he died. He already had that authority. I think about how God forgave the Jews after the 70 year captivity long before Christ died on the cross. It makes me think that God doesn't actually need that human sacrifice to forgive sin, because that would make God restrained, or less sovereign. I'm thinking that God structured the Law the way he did so that in sending Christ to die, one of the many things it accomplished was to reveal the Love of God to mankind that Christ was willing to become a lamb to satisfy the Law. Maybe not because God was restrained by that to forgive sin, but so that the Jews would understand how much their Messiah loved them, to satisfy the requirements of their Law in his own flesh. Just things I wonder about.
:cloud9: Just a thought to ponder (or not) here Seth.....I think He had that authority already because He had already gone to the cross and to the HOH within himself before He ever went to the literal one. The literal one was the body (flesh and soul) doing what it saw it's Head (Spirit) do already. The literal one was for OUR benefit, the natural mirrors the spiritual.
It was said that everything the Jews did was for our example; that includes the Jew named Yeshua. Why would we need a natural example of the things pertaining to the law and the temple/tabernacle, except to express spiritual things through natural? My :2c: Blessings....
He died on the cross or stake to the point of saying "I do not want to go through this" and sweated blood in His anguish. He did not already go to the cross before His physical crucifixion. He did not feel like been there done that. IMO
Quote from: Cardinal on July 04, 2014, 12:04:19 AM
:cloud9: Just a thought to ponder (or not) here Seth.....I think He had that authority already because He had already gone to the cross and to the HOH within himself before He ever went to the literal one.
This would have some interesting doctrinal implications. It would mean that literal blood was not needed to bring forgiveness. I definitely agree that Jesus was dead to self already, and was therefore not subject to the Law, to obey it, but rather he naturally walked the path of Love that the Law required. This gave him authority.
John Calvin reasoned that the cross was necessary to satisfy God's sense of justice and without Christ's death, that sense of Justice must overrule his desire to forgive.
Christ's actions in his earthly ministry seem to openly defy that doctrine which most Christians believe today. He forgave without the literal shedding of his blood first. BUT in order to release anyone from the Law for righteousness, he did need to die literally. I don't see God as restricted by the Law in forgiving mankind, but to release man from the Law and bring him into relationship with God, Christ showed the Love of God by becoming that Lamb.
Hebrews 9:22
And almost all things are
by the law purged with blood;
and without shedding of blood is no remission (concering the Law).
It seems to me that this is not saying that God cannot forgive whenever he wants to. He has the authority to forgive whenever he wants and showed it through Christ, who forgave people of sin who never even asked for that. However, he set up the Law to be unable to be phased out without shedding of blood so that Christ would show the Love of God in that one man died for all, a necessity to release the requirements of the Law from man to be bound, and then they can be saved from sin, through the Spirit which comes by faith.
:cloud9: Again, for our example of His humanity. Neither did He need to be tested by the devil in the wilderness, or be baptized of John, but He said to do it to fulfill all righteousness (as an example for us). My :2c:
And the lamb slain from the foundation of the world? Where does that fit for you? Blessings....
Well, literalblood was required as Hebrews says and in reference to Christ's literal death, but not to make God able to forgive whenever he wants. God has always been able to do whatever he wants. Literal shedding of blood was required in order to move from the Old Covenant to the New Covenant. And because God hard-coded blood sacrifice into the Law's demands, it made him able to reveal the Love he has for humanity in sending his Son to be that Lamb, and begin the process of ushering in a new covenant.
....the little children were partakers of flesh and blood,so,too,likewise He partook.
Actually Seth, I was trying to say that transgressions don't just go away- they are forgiven, and repentance must precede the benefits of forgiveness, even tho the forgiveness was given from the foundation of the world. :o) sorry if I was not clear, I was writing as it was coming up from the well.
Purge me with hyssop(bitter herb representing repentence, godly sorrow, humility) and I shall be clean.
My other point was that without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin- it doesnt just go away, the shed blood of Jesus takes it away. "Behold the Lamb who takes away the sin of the world". "For so it pleased the Father for all the fulness to dwell in Him and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself by the blood of His cross"
Joeteekay, I agree that Jesus had to experience the cross and it was terrible for Him. He wasnt just going thru the motions. He was a man suffering torture and death as a man.
Quote from: eaglesway on July 04, 2014, 04:15:01 AM
Purge me with hyssop(bitter herb representing repentence, godly sorrow, humility) and I shall be clean.
Yes I agree. The cleaning happens through continued humility. If we confess our sins he is faithful to forgive AND cleanse us. I see it as the difference between being reconciled by his death and how much more so having been reconciled, saved through his life. The humility is inspired by the Spirit which is what does the cleansing.
QuoteMy other point was that without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin- it doesnt just go away, the shed blood of Jesus takes it away. "Behold the Lamb who takes away the sin of the world"
Yes, this is what I have been pondering lately. Without blood here is no remission of sin concerning the Laws requirements. I don't take that to mean that God cannot forgive sin without blood sacrifice in general. Jesus proved that he could forgive sin without literal shedding of his blood. He did it all throughout his ministry. The no forgiveness without shedding of blood concerns the Laws requirements, not Gods ability to forgive anyone whenever he wanted. That's what I have been thinking about lately.
My personal opinion is that all forgiveness comes through the blood, which is not so much about "blood sacrifice", but the giving of one's life to save another's, for "the life is in the blood".
"No greater love has a man than this, that he lay down his life for a friend"
This is the reason that the blood is so powerful. The giving of the life, the shedding of the blood is the pouring out of one's life. The one who created the world by His word re-invigorated the world by His life, contained in His blood and poured into the soil of earth- all mankind, "He breathed the breath of life into the clay and it became a living soul".
The blood goes deeper, in my understanding, than just remitting sins under the law. Faith came before the Law.
Romans 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Psalm 19 "The heavens declare His glory and the firmament His handy-work/craftsmanship
2 Day unto day utters speech, and night unto night shows knowledge.
3 There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard.
4 Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them hath he set a tabernacle for the sun,
I believe the Law was about the beginnings of priesthood, and spreading it by teaching, in more detail, the glory of God- driving humilty more deeply nto the souls of His servants, for above all else, Israel was to be a Lampstand, a kingddom of priests, a holy nation
In following His usual way- the first creation was marred so that the new creation would understand even more deeply- and achieve the priesthood the marred vessel could not.
Jesus forgave before he shed his blood.
If you see the creation linear, so it was, but I believe God created all things from the sacrifice of Christ.the seed/the Logos) If He had not shed His blood(bear with my foolishness) He could not have forgiven before, during or after.
"He is before all things, and all things hold together in Him."
It played out in time, but it is the core of eternity and creation. it was His blood that certified the covenant. Without it none of the provisions of covenant would stand.
oh yeah, not expecting such a quick reply I amended my previous post.
Quote from: joeteekay on July 04, 2014, 12:15:43 AMHe died on the cross or stake to the point of saying "I do not want to go through this"
That's just one of the interpretations.
Quote from: eaglesway on July 04, 2014, 06:59:09 AM
If you see the creation linear, so it was, but I believe God created all things from the sacrifice of Christ.the seed/the Logos) If He had not shed His blood(bear with my foolishness) He could not have forgiven before, during or after.
"He is before all things, and all things hold together in Him."
It played out in time, but it is the core of eternity and creation. it was His blood that certified the covenant. Without it none of the provisions of covenant would stand.
But if it played out non-linearly, then even faith is not necessary in linear time because everyone is already saved and therefore, nothing is necessary. If repentance and baptism is necessary for the remission of sin (Acts 2:38), then it would make sense to me that forgiveness in linear time would also have to wait for the blood sacrifice.
In other words, in linear time, things still need to play out
in order.
"None of the provisions of the covenant would stand." That's what I am talking about. The death of Christ had to do with the provisions of the Mosaic covenant with respect to blood being necessary.
Hebrews 9:22
And
almost all things are
by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
Purging by blood was demanded
according to the Law of Moses....for almost all things, not even for all things. This is why I believe Christ was able to forgive without having been sacrificed first. He was not subject to the Law, because the Law is not for the righteous, but the unrighteous.
Quoteoh yeah, not expecting such a quick reply I amended my previous post.
No problem, I think we were on at around the same time.
Quote from: Seth on July 04, 2014, 12:40:33 AMGod has always been able to do whatever he wants.
Wrong. God is bound by the laws, agreements, promises, etc. He made. It's against His very nature/personality to break promises. Breaking a promise means the promise was a lie. Can/does God lie? God is limited is lots of ways. Not by external forces but by His very own personality.
For so it pleased the Father to make all the fulness dwell in Him and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself through the blood of His cross Col 1
Quote from: WhiteWings on July 04, 2014, 07:16:43 AM
Quote from: Seth on July 04, 2014, 12:40:33 AMGod has always been able to do whatever he wants.
Wrong. God is bound by the laws, agreements, promises, etc. He made. It's against His very nature/personality to break promises. Breaking a promise means the promise was a lie. Can/does God lie? God is limited is lots of ways. Not by external forces but by His very own personality.
I'm not talking about breaking promises. The LAW is for the unrighteous, not the righteous.
Quote from: eaglesway on July 04, 2014, 07:17:12 AM
For so it pleased the Father to make all the fulness dwell in Him and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself through the blood of His cross Col 1
To me that means nothing that was, is, or will be reconciled is reconciled in any other way than through His blood.
Quote from: eaglesway on July 04, 2014, 07:17:12 AM
For so it pleased the Father to make all the fulness dwell in Him and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself through the blood of His cross Col 1
Yes. Through the blood of the cross, the dividing line came down. I believe that's the reconciliation. The Law divided man and God because it required a temple overseen by men and a holiest place. He was hid away from the world. Christ ended that through his blood.
Why do you believe that God requires 1) repentance and 2) baptism for the remission of sin? I think because that is the reality of the shadow, of how the Israelites placed hands on the lamb to transfer their sin in type.
As Paul said, a new covenant requires new obedience.
Repentance has always been required, since the beginning. That is the covenant of Romans 1.
As I hav said before, I believe all the covenants are about the progression of priesthood. "He that overcomes will sit with me upon my Fathers throne and will inherit all things". The priesthood of sonship is a ministry of reconciliation. Acts2:38 is a declaration to the Sanhedrin(and anyone else who would become His disciple- a priest as He is) of what the terms of entering the new covenat are. It is a covenant of priesthood. God is having His kingdom of priests from among those whose faith allows them to obey. :2c:
In the gospel, imo, there was never a, "just come get forgiveness" offerred. The call is to discipleship. Forgiveness has been given, and we are offering it through the gospel, which calls men to die(repentance) be buried(separation from the world) and be raised up in the image of Christ into a transformation that brings forth a kingdom of priests." many are called, few are chosen.
:cloud9: AMEN :iagree:
I agree with you regarding the priesthood. But, personally, I don't think reconciliation means immediate remission of sin, or repentance and baptism are not necessary for it. Repentance and baptism is FOR the remission of sin.
Romans 3
25God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement,i through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished
The sacrifice of atonement is received by faith, and I think the sins committed "beforehand" is a reference to the Law.
Hebrews 9:15
For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance--now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.
That's why I believe Christ was able to forgive sins before shedding his blood. Lacking a blood sacrifice did not constrain Jesus who is Lord of the Law.
As I see it, Jesus never lacked a blood sacrifice, he was the one and only blood sacrifice.
8First he said, "Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not desire, nor were you pleased with them"—though they were offered in accordance with the law. 9Then he said, "Here I am, I have come to do your will." He sets aside the first to establish the second. 10And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
11Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, 13and since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool. 14For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.
His own priesthood was verified by His willing sacrifice, offering His life through the shedding of His blood
Quote from: eaglesway on July 04, 2014, 07:47:39 AM
As I see it, Jesus never lacked a blood sacrifice, he was the one and only blood sacrifice.
By "lacking a blood sacrifice" I mean before he went to the cross, in the linear frame of time, where it all happens in order, one thing after another. In other words, Jesus was able to forgive before he literally spilled blood because he was Lord of the Law, and the Law is what required blood sacrifice for remission.
Yea :o) We just disagree here I think. Jesus' death was determined before the Law. He is before all things. The Law was not the reason Jesus shed His blood, the Fall was the reason-for the reconciliation of all. The Law was just a shadow/tutor pointing to Him. He never had to fulfill it- He spoke it into being, and then transcended it by the perfect law of liberty. He could forgive sins because He was the Lamb of God, the sacrifice Lamb. All of it was made possible by the blood of His cross, even those sins forgiven before the actual event of His death, because the cross is eternal. It rent the veil between temporal and eternal, His body. We pass through the veil as members of that body, sharing in His death and sharing in His life.
"I have a task, to complete, and oh how constrained I am till it be accomplished"
Jesus forgave some individuals their sins in His earthly ministry, and all men are reconciled through the blood of His cross.
IMO it all comes from the cross, "For this reason God gave Him the name above every name that at the name of Jesus Christ every knee shall bow."
Quote from: eaglesway on July 05, 2014, 07:45:10 AM
Yea :o) We just disagree here I think. Jesus' death was determined before the Law. He is before all things. The Law was not the reason Jesus shed His blood, the Fall was the reason-for the reconciliation of all. The Law was just a shadow/tutor pointing to Him. He never had to fulfill it- He spoke it into being, and then transcended it by the perfect law of liberty. He could forgive sins because He was the Lamb of God, the sacrifice Lamb. All of it was made possible by the blood of His cross, even those sins forgiven before the actual event of His death, because the cross is eternal. It rent the veil between temporal and eternal, His body. We pass through the veil as members of that body, sharing in His death and sharing in His life.
We don't disagree on everything. I agree that his death was determined before the Law, and that he is before all things, and that the Law is not the ONLY reason he died. Certainly the Law is part of the reason.
What I am saying is that the requirement for blood is by the Law. Christ's death was predetermined, but it was also predetermined that the Law should require a blood sacrifice, which Christ fulfilled. He did that for all mankind, to be sure, but I do not believe it was required of Christ to shed his blood to forgive sin.
I understand the explanation of why Christ
did forgive sin before his death has to do with timelessness. That causes too many other problems for me to go with it. If blood sacrifice was necessary for Christ forgive during his earthly ministry, then he could not forgive in linear time until all things were fulfilled.
This is why Christ did not usher in the New Covenant before his death. He could have just said, "the Old Covenant is over NOW, because I am going to die soon." But he didn't do that, because everything has a required order.
If ANY of God's requirements are necessary in linear time, and in order, than ALL requirements are necessary in order, not just some here and there. If faith, repentance and baptism is required in linear time for remission of sins, then blood sacrifice is required to fulfill the Law in linear time also.
Personally, I believe Christ transcends the Law because the Law is not for a righteous man, but for the ungodly, murders etc, things which Christ was not. That he is Lord of the Law is what I believe made him able to forgive before dying.
It's probably not a major disagreement. As you say, we're not majoring in the minors. Whether it's timelessness or transcendence, we both agree on so many other things.
Absolutely and, in some ways we might be splitting hairs here, lol
But we ARE being polite and respectful about it- how refreshing :o)
I dont believe the requirement for blood is just by Law. The Law reflected the true requirement for blood, which was by love and the divine nature. (No greater love has a man than to lay down His life for a friend). Blood (spotless firstborn lamb)was applied to the doorposts before the law was given, and the death angel passed over. IMO, The blood sacrifices under the law did not forgive sins, they bound them over until Christ would be revealed to take away the sins of the world, once for all, at the cross. In Hebrews the writer calls this the consummation.
Hebrews 9:26 Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.
To me this is incontrovertible along with Col 1 and a few other verses that the manifestation, "once, at the consummation of the ages", puts the cross at the apex of creation.
Like a cone standing up, time must walk from the bottom rim to the tip(consummation) and back down again. In eternity, flip the cone upside down and everything starts at the cross. (my allegory, my opinion).In the beginning was the word. Jesus, the Logos, the seed, the Alpha /Omega, the Lamb slain.
Quote from: eaglesway on July 05, 2014, 08:22:01 AM
But we ARE being polite and respectful about it- how refreshing :o)
:thumbsup:
QuoteHebrews 9:26 Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.
To me this is incontrovertible along with Col 1 and a few other verses that the manifestation, "once, at the consummation of the ages", puts the cross at the apex of creation.
Let me be clear, though. I am not saying that Christ forgave the WHOLE WORLD in his earthly ministry, but he did forgive a few people. He did that because he chose to, he decided to do it in his sovereignty. He also chose to reconcile the whole world though his death after that.
What I am saying is that this is the way God CHOSE to do it. God was well within his own rights to forgive everyone whenever he wanted. I do not believe God was constrained by an arbitrary need for blood. I think that codified language in the Law was written for his plan's sake.
I don't believe God has some special need for blood to satiate some other need to punish. That's what I get from Calvanism. I rather think God is more sovereign than that, that he was well within his rights to forgive anyone at any time for any reason he so deemed, and that he CHOSE to use Christ's sacrifice as a means to reveal his love.
I don't view the atonement from the perspective of God NEEDING anything to get his plan done. I view it as God's plan from the beginning and that he was not a subject to the Law, but Lord of it. God the Father was not subject to obey the Sabbath, and neither was Christ. God also did not need Christ to die first either. But he CHOSE that method rather.
God for sure doesnt need anything. He is who He is- so anyhting He does extends directly from Who He Is, reflecting His absolute being and nature. This is why Christ is the image of God and the expressed thought of God and the radiance of the Father's glory. That's why Abraham was the friend of God.
Yeah that's what I am getting at really. I don't have it all figured out necessarily (just what seems to make sense to me), but I just can't help but be suspect about the interpretation that I once had that puts God in the position of having some kind of need for blood to satiate his wrath. I don't think that's what Hebrews 9 is getting at, personally. I'm not saying you do, but the topic just brought up what I have been pondering.
Yes, I understand that. The thing about God needing blood to satisfy His wrath, in the way it is taught, is another corruption of a doctrine in order to justify ET. There are so many.
Since the gospel is about Christ the image of God, becoming partakers of the divine nature, etc. I never did see God having an attitude of, "I must kill myself so I don't destroy my entire creation in my rage", which is sorta how its been portrayed"
I do see that God is perfect justice and perfect mercy at the same time, However, I see the blood more in the nature of, "I have poured my life into all things, so that mercy triumphs over judgment, so that I can do whatever I want and all will be silent when I speak. No one can judge my mercy because I purchased it with my own blood(Acts 20:28). "
Who has known the mind of the Lord and who has been His counselor
Who has given to Him that He should repay
For from Him and to Him and through Him are all things to whom be the glory throughout all ages.
Amen :o)
:thumbsup: he's so awesome
BTW, I do believe repentence and baptism are "necessary".But I believe the new covenant is towards a body(A body thou hast prepared for me), that will do His will(It is written in the scriptures of me, I come to do Your will, O God), which is the ministry of recnciliation(For God was in Christ reconciling the world unto itself and we have been entrusted with the word of reconciliation(God in Christ-Christ in you.)
IMO, the word of reconciliation goes out to all announcing, "You have been forgiven".......How beautiful on the mountaintops are the feet of them...
Repentence is the Gate into the sheepfold and I see it more as being awakened to righteousness by the overwhelming glory of the love of God displayed at the cross of Jesus, than a "willful decision to change". The remorse(godly sorrow) is more the awareness of the price that love paid for our redemption that "I am sorry I did the wrong thing(s)"
Baptism is tricky for folks because of the word "saved" has always been connected to ET theology- but IT ISNT AND NEVER WAS INTENDED TO BE THAT. As Israel was "saved from Egypt" to serve as a kingdom of priests(Let my people go so they can worship me") in stages.....baptism simply delivers a necessary element in the process of becoming a disciple of Jesus, a minister of reconciliation.
Blood of a spotless firstborn Lamb applied to the doorpost with a sprig of Hyssop (cleans me with hyssop and I will be clean, Psalm 51, David's hymm of repentence) The death angel passed over.
Whenever someone believes(sees Christ crucified, believes Christ risen and Lord) the blood is applied to the doorpost. it is IMPOSSIBLE to see Christ crucified in the spirit of revelation and not repent. Those who see, say, intellectually or religiously but have not been broken by it, havent seen in the biblical sense, and in my opinion are "still in Egypt" (the world). The doorpost is the conscience/consciousness- the portal of the heart. "I pray thet the eyes of your heart may be enlightened(Eph 1). They have eternal life. The seed is planted but......many are called(all believrs), few are chosen(for sonship/priesthood/anointing).
They must pass through the Red Sea to get free.
When Peter says, "In the same manner baptism also saves you(refering to the Noahide flood)" he is not talking in ET theological terms. He is not saying if you are not baptized you "are going to hell".
He is simply saying that baptism is"stage two" in the process of being delivered from the grip of the strongman(carnal mind) and escaping the slavery and oppression of the world, the flesh and the devil. Peter called it "the answer" of a clear conscience. Paul called it the "burial of the body of the sins of the flesh) and the "circumscision". IMO, it is about answering God in faith and setting the natural understanding aside. We receive as a benefit, the "answer"... the old man is dead, my past sins are buried, my logic is based on the Logos and the Spirit- not Pharoahs magiciians and jailers, my service is based in the freedom of abundant love.
So, when the Sanhedrin cried out to Peter, "What must we do?, and He replied, Repent and let everyone of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of your sins and you shall receive the promise of the Holy Spirit....it was NOT "or else you will go to hell forever". That was never the gospel.
To be saved was to be made whole, to exit Egyp(the world and the flesh) and enter the promised land(fruitfulness, fulness in God's grace)
So repent(blood on the doorpost)
Be baptized(cross the Red Sea)
You shall receive the promise of the Holy Spirit(pillar of cloud and fire to lead through the wilderness of sanctification where every unbelieving member-adversary, dies -until only the believeing members- TAKE POSSESSION OF THE PROMISES).
It is about the renewing of the mind. It is about becoming conformed to the image of Christ the image of God. It is about transformation into the children of God, serving through the PERFECT LAW OF LIBERTY(Let my people go)
Hell, eternal death, annihilation- none of that ever entered into it.
Now when someone hears that if you werent baptized or baptized in a certain way, you will go to hell, all kinds of bells and whistles go off- and rightly so. Then a huge debate begins about when the blood is applied and all manner of craziness- ALL BECAUSE OF ET SYSTEMATIC THEOLOGY. But as long as that foundation of ET thinking is applied to the word "saved"- baptism will never be fully understood- nor mush else of the wisdom of God for that matter.
A little leaven leavens the whole lump, eh
Acts 2:38 is about entering life in Christ, not escaping hell. IMO anything taught from the perspective of escaping eternal torment or annihilation is tainted with the leaven of oppression and death. All of it is about entering life as servants of God, children of God, disciples of Christ- becoming light, life and love in the freedom of having become a new creature.
' When God gets us into the RENEWED MIND together, renewed in the image of Christ in all humility kindness and compassion- then He will anoint the acceptable offering and send His Spirit in fulness. But is isnt like that, so we labor in the wilderness, seeking to enter His rest, but until death finishes its work in us(sharing in Christ's death through discipleship) we cannot enter His rest- the finished work, WHY? Simple, it is because of the hardness of our hearts- not because we dont know enough or have enough revelation. it is because we dont walk in His ways or hear the still small voice saying, "Come, take my yoke upon you, for I am meek and lowly of heart, and you will find rest for your souls."
Wow this whole thread is wonderful , Thank you Bro John !!!
I so can see this, as many pictures in my minds eye you are describing here of the Word of God by His Spirit of holiness and agree
:HeartThrob: God bless you and yours
So you are convinced that there is a place of Eternal torment.
You know in your heart somehow,
that is where you are going to go ,
because of all the bad stuff you did.
Then you find out through the emotional experience of Receiving Jesus as your Lord and savior,
that you are not going to hell because he personally saved you .
Could you ever really Love Jesus for just being who he is.
I think, if you really "see" Him you can really love Him, even if your theology is messed up- but I think the "witness"(HS) will always be knocking at the door to lead one into all truth, and the salvation of all.
Quote from: eaglesway on September 20, 2014, 02:01:36 AM
I think, if you really "see" Him you can really love Him, even if your theology is messed up- but I think the "witness"(HS) will always be knocking at the door to lead one into all truth, and the salvation of all.
:thumbsup: Yes forgiving our theology and looking upon the heart :HeartThrob:
And the LORD replied unto Samuel, Do not look on his countenance or on the height of his stature because I have refused him, for it is not as man sees, for man looks on the outward appearance, but the LORD looks on the heart.
The mystery for me was solved .
When I truly believed that I could reject Jesus and the idea
that he had chosen me.
I was free to Love Jesus and choose him for all the Love he demonstrated before and on and after the cross.
Jesus is so Lovely that he does not need any form of fear, to help us choose him.
:iagree: :iagree:
Quote from: rosered on September 19, 2014, 07:28:57 PM
Wow this whole thread is wonderful , Thank you Bro John !!!
I so can see this, as many pictures in my minds eye you are describing here of the Word of God by His Spirit of holiness and agree
:HeartThrob: God bless you and yours
:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
...and all the verses believed to refer to a 'hell' (a preChristian myth) are each one, very easily explained.. :smile:
The problem of evil.....without the Lord and His Grace....without the Father drawing a soul to Jesus....evil will be man's evolving and ever interesting little world of human enticement exciting his natural instincts... Yeah that's my opinion.
The evil notion is; that Jesus could or would reject us.
Quote from: dajomaco on September 23, 2014, 07:20:29 PM
The evil notion is; that Jesus could or would reject us.
I've read and re read your post and I, me personally understood it better when I said,
AN evil notion is; that Jesus could or would reject us. No offence just to let you know I got it. :dsunny:
Cheers
American is my second language.
Canadian is my first.
Well congratulations! My second language used to be swearing. :dsunny:
if god can instantly transform or heal a person why does it have to take an age or ages for people to be free from the lof?i hope maybe it means a shorter time then what seems like a very long time...jonah was in the belly of the fish forever but it was only three days!
Nobody really knows how long judgment lasts. But in my opinion the reason God doesn't instantly make everyone perfect is because he is a Potter. He is shaping creation. He is using the ages to reveal his glory to creation over time.
Quote from: lostnbroken on October 15, 2014, 04:38:33 AM
if god can instantly transform or heal a person why does it have to take an age or ages for people to be free from the lof?i hope maybe it means a shorter time then what seems like a very long time...jonah was in the belly of the fish forever but it was only three days!
Exactly Jonah's olam was just 3 days.
You should also read all of what's being said about LoF.
I'm assuming you are referring to the unpardonable sin that will not be forgiven in this age and the next.
Just as an explanation and not to divert this thread in a soul sleep and duration of olam thread a fictive example
Say both this age and the next age both last 10 billion years. Then a person is just dead for 10 billion years. (this age)
Not being forgiven means the person will reap the consequences of his/her action in the next age.
The age itself lasts 10 billion years, but nowhere it says the correction lasts that long too. The correction maybe lasts only 10 seconds. Ask Saul/Paul how fast God can correct....
Also note the word correction. Not vengeance. Correction can impossibly last forever because the aim of the correction is to teach the subject something. Saying correction lasts forever means Jesus is a lousy teacher. And a lousy Shepherd that unable to bring that lost sheep back into the fold.
The whole problem with ET
theology blasphemy is that they ignore all the positive parables and attach pagan meanings to words.
"You shall not surely be saved, said the ET serpent."
Quote from: lostnbroken on October 15, 2014, 04:38:33 AM
if god can instantly transform or heal a person why does it have to take an age or ages for people to be free from the lof?i hope maybe it means a shorter time then what seems like a very long time...jonah was in the belly of the fish forever but it was only three days!
Hi sis !
I agree with you and Know we are mortals and that is what we have to compare things too
is this very short life and we do not know how to fathom Gods wisdom , thus the Need for the Holy Spirit to teach us and give us a new mind /heart and ears and eyes , a healing
I love Peters Words a 1000 years is a day to God and a day is a 1000 years and a mortal man in his thinking is lacking knowledge or awareness in general to that .
and He is long suffering towards us and patient with us that none should suffer complete ruin or destruction.
2peter 3 ;8 Christ's Coming Judgment
...7But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.
8But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day.
9The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness,
but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.
I have a different way of thinking than most and its not accepted as normal nor well received
God bless you :flowerred:
Quote from: lostnbroken on October 15, 2014, 04:38:33 AM
if god can instantly transform or heal a person why does it have to take an age or ages for people to be free from the lof?i hope maybe it means a shorter time then what seems like a very long time...jonah was in the belly of the fish forever but it was only three days!
I think there is much confusion about the fate of the mortals who are judged before the great white throne and then cast into the lake of fire due to the verses preceding that account concerning the Adversary, the false prophet, and the wild beast. Those three are supernatural beings obviously not subject to death, but mortals will die "the second death," and therefore will not "be tormented day and night for the eons of the eons." I think the length of time the dead spend in the lake of fire is irrelevant because the dead know nothing (Ecclesiastes 9:5). So they won't experience any torment or be conscious of how much time passes before they are vivified at the consummation of the eons. In this way God is even merciful to those who aren't chosen for eonain life. I think the judgment itself before the great white throne is when conviction and correction takes place. I realize some folks will think that means some like Hitler will get off too easy, but we're not told exactly what the judgment involves. I think God's judgment is always done for the purpose of correction not persecution, and those of us who have been convicted of our sins by our conscience in the presence of the Lord know what heavy anguish that alone can be. The point is that the lake of fire means death to the mortals not torment.
"And the Adversary who is deceiving them was cast into the lake of fire and sulphur, where the wild beast and where the false prophet are also. And they shall be tormented day and night for the eons of the eons. And I perceived a great white throne, and Him Who is sitting upon it, from Whose face earth and heaven fled, and no place was found for them. And I perceived the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne. And scrolls were opened. And another scroll was opened which is the scroll of life. And the dead were judged by that which is written in the scrolls in accord with their acts. And the sea gives up the dead in it, and death and the unseen give up the dead in them. And they were condemned, each in accord with their acts. And death and the unseen were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death--the lake of fire." (Revelation 20:10-14)
"The Great White Throne judgment has no place for those who are Christ's, for they have all been made alive and have been enjoying eonian life for more than a millennium." (Concordant Commentary pg.404-Revelation 20:11)
Believers will not be judged before the great white throne but will be requited for our work at the dais of Christ.
"For all of us must be manifested in front of the dais of Christ, that each should be requited for that which he puts into practice through the body, whether good or bad." (2 Corinthians 5:10)
"For other foundation can no one lay beside that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if anyone is building on this foundation gold and silver, precious stones, wood, grass, straw, each one's work will become apparent, for the day will make it evident, for it is being revealed by fire. And the fire, it will be testing each one's work--what kind it is. If anyone's work will be remaining which he builds on it, he will get wages. If anyone's work shall be burned up, he will forfeit it, yet he shall be saved, yet thus, as through fire." (1 Corinthians 3:11-15)
"The question here is not salvation, but service. It is not concerned with the conduct of the believer but with the doctrine of those who teach." (Concordant Commentary pg.251-1 Corinthians 3:15)
Great post Tom.
Lostnbroken, even for those who do go into the LOF- unbelievers, the fire is an "olam" fire. Some will bear many stripes, some will bear few stripes. As you pointed out, Job was in the belly of the whalle "olam"- forever being three days.
The LOF, imo, is an experience of being submerged in the light, which is fire to darkness, until every hidden thing is brought to light. Then the knee will bow and the the tongue joyfully confess the Lordship of Jesus, untill all is light- because God has become "ALL IN ALL" and - "God is light and in Him is no darkness at all".
According to Rev 14:10 this is the winepress of the wrath of God and it torments those in it- "in the presence of God and His holy messengers".
This, imo is the assembly of Hebrews 12:
22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
25 See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:
26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.
27 And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.
28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:
29 For our God is a consuming fire.
I believe this is the Lake of Fire. It is a type, a prophetic codeword so to speak for the general assembly,
For, instance- in Rev 14 the type is- the "winepress of the wrath of God".
Is there a literal winepress in heaven, in the presence of God? Not likely right?
It is another type(prophetic codeword) for the same thing the Lake of Fire is a prophetic code word for.
In this age the gospel is made known through the foolishness of preaching. In that age the gospel will be made known, until every knee bows and every tongue confesses and every enemy is subjected- the last adversary being Death which will be consumed when the last knee bows and God becomes ALL IN ALL- by the overwhelming light and love and fire that is the general assembly of the firstborn, composed of myriads of angels and the spirits of righteous men made perfect.
Remember, Paul said, "Know you not that you will judge angels?"
Consider this verse in Daniel::
Daniel 7:9 "As I looked, "thrones were set in place, and the Ancient of Days took his seat. His clothing was as white as snow; the hair of his head was white like wool. His throne was flaming with fire, and its wheels were all ablaze."
What thrones are these?
Luke 22:27 But I am among you as one who serves. You are those who have stood by me in my trials. 29 And I confer on you a kingdom, just as my Father conferred one on me, 30 so that you may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom and sit on thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
Rev 3:21 To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I was victorious and sat down with my Father on his throne.
Ephesians 2:6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus.
Colossians 3:3 Since, then, you have been raised with Christ, set your hearts on things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God. 2 Set your minds on things above, not on earthly things. 3 For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God. 4 When Christ, who is your life, appears, then you also will appear with him in glory.
This is the inheritance of the righteous, and as our Lord and Master- we will excercise it as being those who serve, ministers of reconciliation. The light will shine so brightly in the divine assembly that even the darkest secrets will come to light and the darkness will flee away and as it does the knees will bow and tongues joyfully praise Jesus the Lord to the glory of God the Father- until Revelation 5:13 is fulfilled.
7 He went and took the scroll from the right hand of him who sat on the throne. 8 And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of God's people. 9 And they sang a new song, saying:
"You are worthy to take the scroll
and to open its seals,
because you were slain,
and with your blood you purchased for God
persons from every tribe and language and people and nation.
10 You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God,
and they will reign on the earth."
11 Then I looked and heard the voice of many angels, numbering thousands upon thousands, and ten thousand times ten thousand. They encircled the throne and the living creatures and the elders. 12 In a loud voice they were saying:
"Worthy is the Lamb, who was slain,
to receive power and wealth and wisdom and strength
and honor and glory and praise!"
13 Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, saying:
"To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb
be praise and honor and glory and power,
for ever and ever!"
14 The four living creatures said, "Amen," and the elders fell down and worshiped.
:cloud9: Doing some catching up, and just wanted to say this post is awesome and rang some bells for me....thanks! :banana:
Quote from: eaglesway on July 05, 2014, 09:21:11 PM
BTW, I do believe repentence and baptism are "necessary".But I believe the new covenant is towards a body(A body thou hast prepared for me), that will do His will(It is written in the scriptures of me, I come to do Your will, O God), which is the ministry of recnciliation(For God was in Christ reconciling the world unto itself and we have been entrusted with the word of reconciliation(God in Christ-Christ in you.)
IMO, the word of reconciliation goes out to all announcing, "You have been forgiven".......How beautiful on the mountaintops are the feet of them...
Repentence is the Gate into the sheepfold and I see it more as being awakened to righteousness by the overwhelming glory of the love of God displayed at the cross of Jesus, than a "willful decision to change". The remorse(godly sorrow) is more the awareness of the price that love paid for our redemption that "I am sorry I did the wrong thing(s)"
Baptism is tricky for folks because of the word "saved" has always been connected to ET theology- but IT ISNT AND NEVER WAS INTENDED TO BE THAT. As Israel was "saved from Egypt" to serve as a kingdom of priests(Let my people go so they can worship me") in stages.....baptism simply delivers a necessary element in the process of becoming a disciple of Jesus, a minister of reconciliation.
Blood of a spotless firstborn Lamb applied to the doorpost with a sprig of Hyssop (cleans me with hyssop and I will be clean, Psalm 51, David's hymm of repentence) The death angel passed over.
Whenever someone believes(sees Christ crucified, believes Christ risen and Lord) the blood is applied to the doorpost. it is IMPOSSIBLE to see Christ crucified in the spirit of revelation and not repent. Those who see, say, intellectually or religiously but have not been broken by it, havent seen in the biblical sense, and in my opinion are "still in Egypt" (the world). The doorpost is the conscience/consciousness- the portal of the heart. "I pray thet the eyes of your heart may be enlightened(Eph 1). They have eternal life. The seed is planted but......many are called(all believrs), few are chosen(for sonship/priesthood/anointing).
They must pass through the Red Sea to get free.
When Peter says, "In the same manner baptism also saves you(refering to the Noahide flood)" he is not talking in ET theological terms. He is not saying if you are not baptized you "are going to hell".
He is simply saying that baptism is"stage two" in the process of being delivered from the grip of the strongman(carnal mind) and escaping the slavery and oppression of the world, the flesh and the devil. Peter called it "the answer" of a clear conscience. Paul called it the "burial of the body of the sins of the flesh) and the "circumscision". IMO, it is about answering God in faith and setting the natural understanding aside. We receive as a benefit, the "answer"... the old man is dead, my past sins are buried, my logic is based on the Logos and the Spirit- not Pharoahs magiciians and jailers, my service is based in the freedom of abundant love.
So, when the Sanhedrin cried out to Peter, "What must we do?, and He replied, Repent and let everyone of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of your sins and you shall receive the promise of the Holy Spirit....it was NOT "or else you will go to hell forever". That was never the gospel.
To be saved was to be made whole, to exit Egyp(the world and the flesh) and enter the promised land(fruitfulness, fulness in God's grace)
So repent(blood on the doorpost)
Be baptized(cross the Red Sea)
You shall receive the promise of the Holy Spirit(pillar of cloud and fire to lead through the wilderness of sanctification where every unbelieving member-adversary, dies -until only the believeing members- TAKE POSSESSION OF THE PROMISES).
It is about the renewing of the mind. It is about becoming conformed to the image of Christ the image of God. It is about transformation into the children of God, serving through the PERFECT LAW OF LIBERTY(Let my people go)
Hell, eternal death, annihilation- none of that ever entered into it.
Now when someone hears that if you werent baptized or baptized in a certain way, you will go to hell, all kinds of bells and whistles go off- and rightly so. Then a huge debate begins about when the blood is applied and all manner of craziness- ALL BECAUSE OF ET SYSTEMATIC THEOLOGY. But as long as that foundation of ET thinking is applied to the word "saved"- baptism will never be fully understood- nor mush else of the wisdom of God for that matter.
A little leaven leavens the whole lump, eh
Acts 2:38 is about entering life in Christ, not escaping hell. IMO anything taught from the perspective of escaping eternal torment or annihilation is tainted with the leaven of oppression and death. All of it is about entering life as servants of God, children of God, disciples of Christ- becoming light, life and love in the freedom of having become a new creature.
' When God gets us into the RENEWED MIND together, renewed in the image of Christ in all humility kindness and compassion- then He will anoint the acceptable offering and send His Spirit in fulness. But is isnt like that, so we labor in the wilderness, seeking to enter His rest, but until death finishes its work in us(sharing in Christ's death through discipleship) we cannot enter His rest- the finished work, WHY? Simple, it is because of the hardness of our hearts- not because we dont know enough or have enough revelation. it is because we dont walk in His ways or hear the still small voice saying, "Come, take my yoke upon you, for I am meek and lowly of heart, and you will find rest for your souls."
EW...good post! :iagree:
An incredible post, eaglesway! I so agree. I found this scripture, which I think helps to confirm what you said.
How can we enter heaven, in our earthly way of thinking? We need to enter heaven, in the Spirit, not in the flesh.
1 Corinthians 2 Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
2 And I, having come unto you, brethren, came -- not in superiority of discourse or wisdom -- declaring to you the testimony of God,
2 for I decided not to know any thing among you, except Jesus Christ, and him crucified;
3 and I, in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling, was with you;
4 and my word and my preaching was not in persuasive words of human wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power --
5 that your faith may not be in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.
6 And wisdom we speak among the perfect, and wisdom not of this age, nor of the rulers of this age -- of those becoming useless,
7 but we speak the hidden wisdom of God in a secret, that God foreordained before the ages to our glory,
8 which no one of the rulers of this age did know, for if they had known, the Lord of the glory they would not have crucified;
9 but, according as it hath been written, `What eye did not see, and ear did not hear, and upon the heart of man came not up, what God did prepare for those loving Him --'
10 but to us did God reveal [them] through His Spirit, for the Spirit all things doth search, even the depths of God,
11 for who of men hath known the things of the man, except the spirit of the man that [is] in him? so also the things of God no one hath known, except the Spirit of God.
12 And we the spirit of the world did not receive, but the Spirit that [is] of God, that we may know the things conferred by God on us,
13 which things also we speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Holy Spirit, with spiritual things spiritual things comparing,
14 and the natural man doth not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for to him they are foolishness, and he is not able to know [them], because spiritually they are discerned;
15 and he who is spiritual, doth discern indeed all things, and he himself is by no one discerned;
16 for who did know the mind of the Lord that he shall instruct Him? and we -- we have the mind of Christ.
:iagree: :2c: