The Hell Thread

[darryl]

I don't believe any loss will be eternal. Eonian, maybe. But at some point God will  be all in all. If in the end all will be in Christ, then in the end "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for you are all one in Christ Jesus." and if we are all one with Christ there is no one who is less than.

Just my opinion.

hmmm,this is difficult to put into words because it's dealing with abstract concepts, but I'll try...a question : will a Pol Pot  (as a stereotypical evil person)  be in heaven without being stripped of his evil ?...without suffering eternal loss of the depraved elements of his soul' ?...hmmm, didnt Jesus say better to lose the entire world than lose ones soul ?. ..surely the loss of the wicked and depraved parts of his soul will take place..that's the eternal loss I'm speaking of...the eternal loss of that which is no good in the first place ...btw, the Bible NEVER talks about the loss of the Spirit..only the 'Soul'.I know God will be 'all in all'..but the 'All' that is in Him must be holy and pure. not wicked..and God will dash and remake the wicked ones, like Hitler or Pol Pot..like a potter remodels clay...so that only the pure burnished 'good' remains.I believe this concept of the 'loss of the soul' that Jesus spoke of best fits the UR eschatological narrative.Of course I'm not God and I could be wrong but it seems both Biblical and logical to me that God will not allow 'evil' in heaven.

Ok, that makes sense. I agree no evil will remain so in that sense they "lose" a part of them, and the more evil a person is the more they will stand to lose. It will likely be a process and probably very difficult. 

Speaking from personal experience as a non-Hitler, lots of my sin and tendency to want to sin have been lost but I don't miss it! I don't even view a lot of what I've done in the past as "me."  Lots more still present within since we are yet to be perfected and I am happy for it to be gone some day! I think, though we are clearly speculating about things, that when Hitler is perfected and at one with Christ, he will feel glad to be rid of the evil that was within him even if it was a big part of him/his soul. I'd speculate he would feel anguish and torture and regret for a time but that can't, in my opinion, last forever, or else that is basically an eternal hell of sorts.

I suspect there'll be more grace there than what we thought possible for example i have personally been there when 2 people close to me died neither of whom were believers in Christ and both had positive experiences  before they died...right before one died he smiled past me at something that only he could see and the other person a couple days before he died spoke in a spiritual sense of the room being full of 'gold'.Also my own personal experience of God tells me that He is a very loving, soft and gentle.I know there's stuff in the Bible about God's judgement and wrath but I do not think He's going around all furious and angry with his creation...perhaps He is angry with sin and injustice in the world  but does not hate people He loves them. As I said though, I'm not God and can only speak from my own tiny experience and knowledge...we will all find out the Truth soon enough when we pass from this world.

[marie glen]

I don't believe any loss will be eternal. Eonian, maybe. But at some point God will  be all in all. If in the end all will be in Christ, then in the end "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for you are all one in Christ Jesus." and if we are all one with Christ there is no one who is less than.

Just my opinion.

hmmm,this is difficult to put into words because it's dealing with abstract concepts, but I'll try...a question : will a Pol Pot  (as a stereotypical evil person)  be in heaven without being stripped of his evil ?...without suffering eternal loss of the depraved elements of his soul' ?...hmmm, didnt Jesus say better to lose the entire world than lose ones soul ?. ..surely the loss of the wicked and depraved parts of his soul will take place..that's the eternal loss I'm speaking of...the eternal loss of that which is no good in the first place ...btw, the Bible NEVER talks about the loss of the Spirit..only the 'Soul'.I know God will be 'all in all'..but the 'All' that is in Him must be holy and pure. not wicked..and God will dash and remake the wicked ones, like Hitler or Pol Pot..like a potter remodels clay...so that only the pure burnished 'good' remains.I believe this concept of the 'loss of the soul' that Jesus spoke of best fits the UR eschatological narrative.Of course I'm not God and I could be wrong but it seems both Biblical and logical to me that God will not allow 'evil' in heaven.

Absolutely!!  :iagree: ...but I kind of think of "better to lose this or that to to lose one's soul" as better than to lose one's life.. though I don't know if that's accurate or not as the word soul is translated from a word that we get psyche from.. so self? But I can't think of us as having a "soul" as in an immortal part as - well, just yesterday, I think it was (for example) I was reading in the interlinear a word which had in its meaning - incorruptable, imperishable and immortal.

Since none of us thus far are incorruptible, I figure we are also not yet 'immortal'.. though I tend to think all life is in Jesus, He and the Father and God's Spirit (Presence?) as being the only ones with immortality.. all others' life is, and will be in them..

"Spirit" being breath.. life force.. breath and spark of life, but which vitality returns to God.. and "soul" as psych.. and self, but not as immortal.. this is how I think anyway.. "better to lose a hand, or etc, than to lose one's life in the valley of Geheena" (war? judgment? of that day coming in 70 a.d?  :dontknow: )

Now what did I read the other day in the interlinear.. I think it was in the Hebrew, something about the dead resting in their beds..  :Chinscratch: maybe I can find it through search..

oh yes, now I remember, after a google search ("bible verse dead resting in bed") - I was reading in Isaiah,

Isaiah 57:1-2, "The righteous perish,
    and no one takes it to heart;
the devout are taken away,
    and no one understands
that the righteous are taken away
    to be spared from evil.
2 Those who walk uprightly
    enter into peace;
    they find rest as they lie in death."

Of course other translations say it differently "...no one understands that the righteous are taken away to be spared from evil. 2 They shall enter into peace: they shall rest in their beds, each one walking in his uprightness." (KJ)

...verse #1 sure sounds like death.. :dontknow: or so i have always assumed..

Amplified bible - "2 He [in death] enters into peace; they rest in their beds, each one who walks straight and in his uprightness."

and Young's - "2 He entereth into peace, they rest on their beds, [Each] is going straightforward."

The interlinear - "2 He shall enter into peace they shall rest in their beds [each one] walking [in] his uprightness"

(the righteous) he shall enter, is "bo: to come in, come, go in, go" -- into peace, is "shalom: completeness, soundness, welfare, peace -- they shall rest is "nuach: to rest -- in is "al: upon, above, over" -- in their beds is "mishkab: place of lying, a couch, act of lying" -- [each one, added] - walking, is "halak: to go, come, walk" -- in his righteousness is "nakoach: straight, right, straightness"

                       ?  :dontknow:

Um.. just a little study review for me..
-----------

I suspect there'll be more grace there than what we thought possible for example i have personally been there when 2 people close to me died neither of whom were believers in Christ and both had positive experiences  before they died...right before one died he smiled past me at something that only he could see and the other person a couple days before he died spoke in a spiritual sense of the room being full of 'gold'.Also my own personal experience of God tells me that He is a very loving, soft and gentle.I know there's stuff in the Bible about God's judgement and wrath but I do not think He's going around all furious and angry with his creation...perhaps He is angry with sin and injustice in the world  but does not hate people He loves them.

   :thumbsup:

Ok, that makes sense. I agree no evil will remain so in that sense they "lose" a part of them, and the more evil a person is the more they will stand to lose. It will likely be a process and probably very difficult. 

Speaking from personal experience as a non-Hitler, lots of my sin and tendency to want to sin have been lost but I don't miss it! I don't even view a lot of what I've done in the past as "me."

I know just what you mean! I think that's very true of us believers..

  Lots more still present within since we are yet to be perfected and I am happy for it to be gone some day! I think, though we are clearly speculating about things, that when Hitler is perfected and at one with Christ, he will feel glad to be rid of the evil that was within him even if it was a big part of him/his soul. I'd speculate he would feel anguish and torture and regret for a time but that can't, in my opinion, last forever, or else that is basically an eternal hell of sorts.

  :thumbsup: amen..

[marie glen]

Him I'm or gaheena- gay (valley) Hinnom is still a bit mysterious.. where body and soul/psych can be killed.. as in perish?

The wages of sin is death.. God so loved the world He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believes in Him shall not perish..

It was a great indignant humiliation to a Hebrew to lie unburied at death..

Isaiah 66 with its reference to all (the whole/pas?) will look upon the dead remains of the transgressors and be abhorred..

It is after resurrection that the lake of fire is a possibility.. in it, I'm assuming, one can indeed "perish"..?

:Chinscratch: just some thoughts..

[darryl]

Him I'm or gaheena- gay (valley) Hinnom is still a bit mysterious.. where body and soul/psych can be killed.. as in perish?


It is after resurrection that the lake of fire is a possibility.. in it, I'm assuming, one can indeed "perish"..?

:Chinscratch: just some thoughts..

these concepts are really difficult and abstract because they're dealing with the next life/world/ existence/experience ...my feeling is its kinda like an ant trying to understand this world and we are the ants...even though elements of the next world are described in literal terms in the Bible ( see the Book of Revelation, the New  Jerusalem etc ) maybe it was like that to give us some little idea of it but the reality will be something we could never have even comprehended in this world...

well, I'm not God and I'm not dead yet so anything I say about it could be all wrong..I just base my thoughts about the next world on the Bible, on my own experiences with Jesus and maybe some other stuff maybe thrown into the 'mix'........the 'perish' bit maybe refers to the soul perishing but its found again like the lost coin ?...or maybe God 'perishes/ destroys' the evil elements of the soul but leaves the Spirit be (I believe in a tri-une nature of human beings,Spirit, Soul, Body) ...hmmm, food for thought...

I'm the first to admit I don't know everything and I could be wrong and I've been wrong about stuff in this life let alone the next but my opinion/ feelings/ beliefs about it all are probably/ possibly as good as the next persons...I dunno, it's all just chatting, opinions  etc, not 'written in stone'.I try not to be too 'pretentious' about stuff like I know everything. We are all on a journey, all on the Road.

However,  Jesus did say 'Seek and Ye shall find' and I have found that to be true in my own experience.I have 'found' a lot but there's still much more to 'find' !.

[marie glen]

Here's something I found interesting in the sermon on the mount Jesus was talking to his disciples "first of all" - luke12:4 (Mt 5:21-26)

In Luke it's remembered as being in danger of hellfire/Gehenna (judgment?) which I am believing to be during this lifetime.. immediately after that admonishment he says "fear not you are worth more than many sparrows for the very hairs of your head are counted" (so loved you are!)

So it seems kind of like he was saying .. fear not but if you must fear, fear He who is able to destroy both psych/soul and body in Gehenna (valley of Hinnom fires)

And the fire that is not quenched is one not extinguished but burns til all is consumed that can be.. as one of the prophets (Isaiah?) sail the fire of jerusalem's judgment would never be quenched.. but we can see there is no fire there now, so evidently it did go out.. but it was not extinguished but burned itself out.

The worm can be seen as maggots and they too do not cease to devour refuse, trash, morbidity (all of ones yuckiness) until all is consumed..

...this being the aim of judgment
:2c: :Peace2:

[sheila]

another perspective re; the worm that does not die.....Jacob you worm...and transformation into a butterfly[new creature]ISRAEL

  sown in corruption and weakness[worm] raised up in incorruption,power.   the image of the corrupt/the image of the incorruptible

   that which is corruptible[weak flesh] must put on incorruption[spirit]

[marie glen]

another perspective re; the worm that does not die.....Jacob you worm...and transformation into a butterfly[new creature]ISRAEL

  sown in corruption and weakness[worm] raised up in incorruption,power.   the image of the corrupt/the image of the incorruptible

   that which is corruptible[weak flesh] must put on incorruption[spirit]

Amen, Sheila! I love that image.. of the worm being transformed into the beautiful free flying butterfly.. a living parable!

Trivia on the butterfly :laughing7: - i googled "bible verse butterfly" and came up those great verses, be renewed in mind by washing of the word and we are transformed from image to image into the likeness of the Lord..

But also I came across this, how the butterfly (Monarch) goes through four stages in its transformation, the egg, the worm, the pupa (chrysalis), and then the butterfly! this reminded me of the child or childhood, the sinner, the larvae/chrysalis, nestled up with God learning, being transformed.. til at his return when is put on incorruptibility and immortality, the butterfly..

[darryl]

the worm does not die but becomes a butterfly... yes !...brilliant. :dsunny:

[marie glen]

the worm does not die but becomes a butterfly... yes !...brilliant. :dsunny:

    :faint: ..Amen!! I for one, didn't even notice that! ...man! He certainly is a brilliant communicator (among all other things too of course!)

                        :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9:


...and I was wondering, about this today, after reading about it today, if this which Jesus said makes - "wherefore if your hand or your foot offend you, cut them off, and cast them from you: it is better for you to enter into life disabled, than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting (aionian/'age-lasting') fire. And if your eye offend you, pluck it out" (the offending impulse) "and cast it from you: it is better for you to enter into life with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell (Gehenna) fire" -

And then elsewhere He says "aionios/'age-abiding' (translated everlasting) fire, prepared for the devil and his angels" which we know(?) is the lake of fire - does this make all these the same fire?

Jesus told his disciples who had come to him apart from the crowd, if they were called their brother fool, they would be in danger of gehenna fire.. which I am coming to believe occurs to believers/followers during this lifetime.. we daily appearing before the judgment seat of Jesus(?) - salted with fire, encouraged, and admonished when we need it, to honestly judge ourselves.. and also He says He has already kindled his fire.. and judgment begins in the house of God..
   ...
1 Corinthians 11:31-32 - "For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world."

   :dontknow: :dontknow:

[darryl]

Jesus told his disciples who had come to him apart from the crowd, if they were called their brother fool, they would be in danger of gehenna fire.. which I am coming to believe occurs to believers/followers during this lifetime.. we daily appearing before the judgment seat of Jesus(?) - salted with fire, encouraged, and admonished when we need it, to honestly judge ourselves.. and also He says He has already kindled his fire.. and judgment begins in the house of God..
   ...
1 Corinthians 11:31-32 - "For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world."

   :dontknow: :dontknow:

yes...a strange coincidence in regards to your comment but i was thinking today that maybe sometimes this life is the 'Gehenna' Jesus spoke of 'cos of some of the strange challenging things we go through...hmmm, very interesting !.

[marie glen]

 :Chinscratch:

That is exActly what I've been thinking! This morning it's been 'missing the mark (translated sin, but I think of it as imperfection- God being perfection and also life)

missing the mark is tribulation and tribulation is the lake of fire..
                   ?

P.S. where the worm does not die.. but is transformed.. (living parable, butterfly)
(because of the fire / life? / Him, which is never quenched / put out..)

[hishandmaiden]

I believe hell is a place of punishments for the unsaved, but that it is not everlasting.
If the unsaved believes in Jesus in hell, they will become the saved.

[WhiteWings]

I believe hell is a place of punishments for the unsaved, but that it is not everlasting.
If the unsaved believes in Jesus in hell, they will become the saved.

I believe the same in part.
I do not believe there is any real fire involved.
I do believe many Christians (believers in Christ) go there as the Sheep and Goat parable teaches.

[marie glen]

I believe hell is a place of punishments for the unsaved, but that it is not everlasting.
If the unsaved believes in Jesus in hell, they will become the saved.

I sort of agree, but I think of it as the purifying Spirit of God - "our God is a consuming fire" / consuming all impurity - and just like we have experienced it! Burning shame for sins (Greek "missing the mark").. I think it's during Judgment 'Day' that "all the ends of Earth will remember and turn to the LORD, and all families of the nation's will worship before Him". (Psalm 22:27)

[MusicLover123]

A bit like MG said, what if "hell" is the presence of God? None can escape His presence anyway.

[marie glen]

Or, at other times (lol) I think the lake of fire, where death and the grave, translated hell, are cast, as no humans actually going there, having all been drawn to Jesus, asHe said - He will draw all to Himself, Jn.12:32 - during “the Judgment”. Lof being “the second death”. And those thrown to it in Rev 19, I think are 2 “things” - a world institution (beast one of chapter 13) and a belief / false prophet/teacher/teaching.. the “strong delusion” which caused/is causing the “falling away” of western civilization, once called Christendom, from the faith.. These two institutions of man cast to lof “alive/active” at Jesus’ return.
:gsmile:

[darryl]

What the point IS tho and what IS important is the fact that there is NO ETERNAL hellfire or punishments

thats true, how can a normal human beeing accept the idea of everlasting hell? or say this is just or hope that someone would go there? it will never go in my mind, every person should be glad when telling them, what these words meant, but so many people, they want hell to be real, why?

'cas some cant feel like WINNERS unless theres LOSERS ?....

[billsull]

 i question eternal damnation. somebody can say in thy seed all nations- singular vs so shall thy seed be-many. other words limit the application. it seems  european capitalism and calvanism worked together to curse anybody who cant keep up with the born against bourgeois.