Well this topic keeps getting recycled so lets make one that is sticky that we can all share and hopefully newbies can learn from it.
Let's get a picture:
(http://www.what-the-hell-is-hell.com/fire2.jpg)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Problem_of_hell
You had to start with this :)
The biblical doctrine of hell examined (supports ET) sounds familiar :thewife: :hammerhead:
http://www.graceonlinelibrary.org/articles/full.asp?id=9|23|89 (http://www.graceonlinelibrary.org/articles/full.asp?id=9%7C23%7C89)
VS
Absolute Assurance
in
JESUS CHRIST :Peck: :love4: :Urock:
Four Views of the Salvation of Our God
http://www.sigler.org/slagle/absolute.htm
I must say I prefer the Absolute Assurance article :girlheart: :boyheart:
Despite the Roman takeover of Christian doctrine, many people in the Early Church believed that New Testament books such as 1 Peter taught that hell was temporary. See http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Prevailing.html (http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Prevailing.html).
I also like my article http://theoperspectives.blogspot.com/2007/10/orthodoxy-and-gregory-of-nyssas.html (http://theoperspectives.blogspot.com/2007/10/orthodoxy-and-gregory-of-nyssas.html).
QuoteThe Letter From Hell
One day a woman named Louise fell asleep in her bed, and dreamed a very
frightful dream. She dreamed that someone in Hell wrote a letter to her, and it was
to be delivered to her by a messenger. The messenger passed between the lakes
of Hell, and found his way to the door that would lead him to the outside
world.
Louise dreamed that the messenger walked to her house, came inside, and
gently but firmly woke Louise up. He gave her the message, saying only a friend had
written it to her from Hell. Louise, in her dream, with trembling hands took
the letter and read:
My Friend I stand in Judgment now,
And feel that you're to blame somehow.
On earth, I walked with you day by day,
And never did you point the way.
You knew the Lord in truth and glory,
But never did you tell the story.
My knowledge then was very dim;
You could have led me safe to Him.
Though we lived together on the earth,
you never told me of the second birth,
and now I stand this day condemned,
Because you failed to mention Him.
You taught me many things, that's true,
I called you "friend" and trusted you,
But I learn now that it's too late,
You could have kept me from this fate.
We walked by day and talked by night,
And yet you showed me not the light.
You let me live, and love, and die,
You knew I'd never live on high.
Yes, I called you a "friend" in life,
And trusted you through joy and strife.
And yet on coming to the end,
I cannot, now, call you "My Friend."
Marsha
After reading the letter, Louise awoke. The dream was still so real in her
mind and sweat dropped from her body in pools. She swore she could still smell
the acidic stench of brimstone and smoke from her room. As she contemplated the
meaning of her dream, she realized that as a Christian,
she failed in her duty to "Go out to all the world and preach the Gospel." As
she thought of that, she promised herself that the next day, she would call
Marsha and invite her to church with her.
The next morning she called Marsha and this was the conversation:
"Bill, Is Marsha there?"
"Louise, you don't know?"
"No, Bill, know what?"
"Marsha was Killed Last Night In A Car Accident. I thought you knew."
~ Author Unknown ~
Has anyone seen something like this, apparently there's a You Tube clip similar to this, also it seems as if this is based on a Jack Chick comic
Why I brought this up, is that in the past I would always have somehow felt I was to blame, if someone died and I hadn't told them about Christ and getting saved :mshock:(perhaps because I've never been able to embrace the ET doctrine) ie What will happen if I don't accept Christ, will I go to hell
But I have to ask the question, if God wanted her reached then, being All Knowing and Sovereign, he would have found another way
Was it really Louise's fault :sigh:
The trouble is that in churches they tell us that God hates sin so much, His justice is what sends us to hell if we don't choose Christ
How can we be entirely to blame when:
QuoteIsa 45:5 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:
Isa 45:6 That they may know from the rising of the sun,and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.
Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace,and create evil: the LORD do all these things
QuoteRom 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
Rom 8:21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
Rom 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
Rom 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
Here at work there are several people in the plant that forward chain letters and such. This is one I did actually get and I deleted it. It's a play on guilt and intimidation. It's based on the fact that hell is ET. I get aggrivated at church-going people that get behind these sorts of things. Establishing a relationship with God is not based on fear or guilt. I'm not here to seek and save that which is lost . .that was Christ's job and no one could do it better . .but yet that's the expectation. We're supposed to go out and save the world that's going to hell in a hand-basket.
Brace yourself . . .Jesus did not come to save you from going to hell. He didn't come to die. He came to bring you resurrection life . . .but to do so, he had to go through death first. Our focus is always about the death . . .but that cross and tomb is empty. Why focus on something that is empty? God so desires to have "relationship" with us "through" Christ, through the blood, through the redemption. How much greater is one's message when one chooses to focus on Who Christ IS as opposed to the works Jesus did.
It was someone's relligious imagination that schemed up that so called dream . . .to play of the emotions of the innocent. To relay a message that says "no matter how busy you are for God . . .it will never be enough." The message for this generation is not one of works . . .but one of rest.
I do think its all possibly in a persons mind. When something worries you so much it's amazing what you dream or feel. For example I have been praying very hard to understand what the right path is. Should I believe in ET or US? Anyhow the other morning as I awoke the first thing that came into my head was ET is real! Was a very powerful thought, terribly nerve racking. I am now beginning to think the only reason I had that thought is because I obsess so much over what I should believe. When I first woke up and had that thought, I believed it was a higher power telling me it is real.
Does anyone else know what I am talking about? Has anyone here experieced something like that?
Would love your thoughts
Blessings
Dee
Quote from: DeeDee on November 09, 2008, 08:01:52 AM
Anyhow the other morning as I awoke the first thing that came into my head was ET is real!
IMO that means absolutely nothing.
If you have financial problems and fell asleep worrying about them the changes are big you wake up with those thoughts.
If you are a chainsmoker or alcoholic the chances are big you first thought is about a smoke or drink.
If someone you loved just died it's very likely your 1st thought when you wake up.
If you can't decide to buy that house or not you will remeber the thought when you wake up.
etc
etc
Below a quote from something I posted yesterday:
QuoteMaybe not an hoax in all cases but a genuine illusion.
Several years ago I saw an experiment on Discovery Channel.
A group of none related tourists payed for some sort of guide tour. It was in the USA possibly at a place that had reported UFO sighting in the past.
It was some sort of walk in nature. You know the guide telling what type of tree and bird they just walked past.
Then they entered an area with red/white ribbons. Something like a police crimescene.
The guide told 'm he knew very little about it. Basically he just knew they should stay on the path marked with the ribbons. And that something crashed that night.
All there was to be seen was some wreckage that looked more like a collapsed shed instead of spaceship. There was one or 2 guards standing with their backs to the path. They where unarmed. And didn't move.
At the tour continued and the watched some more birds. At the end of the day they where brought to the city by a bus. In the bus some the guide mentioned an UFO in a very vague way. Arrived in the city there the gone their own ways.
6 month later they all where interviewed. What was behind the ribbons.
The place was swarming with aggressive marines that pointed their M16s at the tourists.
There where spaceshuttle like engines. Basically it looked like a huge spaceship has crashed.
Others remembers smoking holes in the ground.
So all remembered something that never was happened. No indoctrination at all.
It was an experiment to test how reliable an eye witness on a crime scene is.
No think what happens with your mind if you often listen to an hellfire sermon....
I have been having another interesting thought concerning hell. Its just a thought and if some of you feel its got no basis in reality please tell me (in a nice way :laughing7:).
Matthew 12:40 is a passage often used to try and affirm that the hell of ET is in the centre of the earth. Now whilst researching this I found something interesting. In this passage we assume Jesus is the one referred to as the son of man right, but Jesus was dead for 2 nights and was raised on the 3rd day, and the "person/persons" referred to here were in the heart of the earth for 3days and 3nights. Could hell / corrections only last 3 days? Now I think I have seen something like that on these boards before but I could'nt find it now. Please steer me to that thread (if it exists) or tell me what you think.
Blessings
DeeDee
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=3570.0
Is a bit about that. Some seem to feel punishment is short.
Martin once wrote something to a similar effect. Something between 1 week and 3 months?
He came to that conclusion from combining verses all over the place. But that's all I can remember...
Let just assume Jesus was 3 days in hell. And that from that you can conclude that punishment also lasts 3 days.
Then there is another problem.
In those 3 days He also had to created hell, make it burn, wake up the dead etc.
Simply because if hell was already functional then some dead sinners will already be inthere for say 5000 years.
Hmm interesting indeed.
QuoteLet just assume Jesus was 3 days in hell. And that from that you can conclude that punishment also lasts 3 days.
Then there is another problem.
In those 3 days He also had to created hell, make it burn, wake up the dead etc.
Simply because if hell was already functional then some dead sinners will already be inthere for say 5000 years.
Yes that is true, if "hell" is "real" then there would be people there from the beginning of time - some would argue that as unfair and others will simply say that what difference does it make how long some have been there for since its for eternity ( i.e a few thousand years longer makes no difference). Its seems to me tho that the ET supporters claim that it wasn't Jesus who created hell, it was God in the beginning when He created all other things. Therefore I do think the theory that hell is simply a place of corrections fits - it would make the most sense now would'nt it
Hell is nowhere mentioned in the creation account. But Heaven isn't either. So that's no proof of anything...
But even if God created it then it will go away. The Bible states that heaven and earth will pass away.
Meaning God will uncreate all we know of. Simply put things go back to before what science calls Big Bang.
Or Biblical speaking before Genesis 1:1
So IF hell is really in the center of the earth as some ETs claim them it's uncreated also.
My main point was:
IF hell exists
AND punishment in hell lasts 3 days
THEN people that died long ago have to be transported from the grave to hell at the start of those 3 days.
QuoteTherefore I do think the theory that hell is simply a place of corrections fits - it would make the most sense now would'nt it
I have my idea's about it. Writing them down will likely get this thread closed within a week.
So let me stay on safe ground by stating:
I do NOT believe in a hell with natural fire as we know it.
IF there is fire is spiritual and teaching. Perhaps unpleasant but no torture.
Hell (if it exists) can look like classic hell but I would be suprised that it looks totally different.
It will have an end.
I have been having new thoughts about all this today. It occured to me how strange it is that people seem to realise that purgatory is a Catholic invention (just like priest confessions etc.), yet they can't accept that the classic fire and brimstone eternal hell is also a man made / church concept. I mean even Pope John Paul II did'nt believe in the "classic" hell. See the below link for proof.
http://www.ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/JP2HEAVN.HTM
I mean that has got to tell you something. I have seen testimonies of priests admitting that hell is an invention (at least the fiery eternal kind).
About hell being in the centre of the earth. That I believe is easily debunked aswell. Our latest technology has allowed for scientists to take types of "scans" of the earths layers using things like earquakes etc. - Classic hell teaches that you can feel everything that is happening to you, that would mean you have a body right, so if people are in hell (like so many testimonies of people who believed they themselves went to hell would claim or like the whole well to hell hoax claimed) right now suffering for all eternity, would'nt something show up on those "scans"?
Stop letting the teaching of hell come inbetween you and the wonderful relationship you can have with God. Let go people.
Blessings
DeeDee
It's always interesting to read these theories and ways of explaining certain phenomenon. I love to philosophize myself, but I think it is important to remember that we are not intended to know all of the details of everything. We don't need to know. Certain things are all important to explaining the message in a way that it can be understood, and in an accurate way. That is our responsibility. All of the other details are open to speculation. As long as we remain open to the instruction of the Holy Spirit of God we can ask those questions and maybe get some answers. We should always focus on the things that we can agree on though. Unity in the body is God's will, and we cannot afford to ignore that responsibility any longer.
I'm not using this as (possible) proof for hell but the scans you mention aren't that great.
Besides of that if hell exists in the core of the earth it's not normal geology at work.
The laws of nature designed by God himself just make it impossible to have underground lakes in a molten lava mass. It simply collapses. If it's there its God keeping it into shape. Then He can also hide it from scans.
If if if. I can just as well claim God has a secret wine storage there where He keeps wine for the Lambs wedding.
My point is its so easy to come up with unreal things. If the proof gets hard just say nothing is impossible for God....
You know purgatory always looked a bit like UR for me.
It teaches you are there a limited period of time. You leave when purged of uncleanes.
Isn't that what UR teaches?
I wonder it's some midway between pure UR and pure Paganism?
Perhaps some sort of political decision to attrackt more pagans into Christan church?
Comments?
Looking for a literal hell? concluding it lasts literally 3 days? Walk in the spirit???
What if it's not about the length of time in hell, but it's about RESURRECTION!! The number 3 is symbolizing resurrection life, not death.
I agree that Catholics may be on to something with the purgatory issue . . .not as they believe it so much, but there may be a thread of truth to it in that hell is not a permant place any more than one's stay in the lake of fire is forever. The fire itself may be for ever, but not our stay in it.
Tear down this temple and in three days I will go to hell??? No . . .in three days I will RAISE IT UP. Our emphasis is in the wrong place in this. At least from where I see things anyway.
how long do u think lasts punishment of the unbeliever?
the jews believe gehenna is for 12 months, older german universalist believed in a literal hell fire for thousands of years, maybe the Year of Jubilee, the 50th year in the Thora is a hint for the length of the punishment?
as i tend to believe in a resurrection on earth not a "spiritiual afterlife", there might be punishment for the wicked on earth, but im not sure how logic that is
Quoteas i tend to believe in a resurrection on earth not a "spiritiual afterlife", there might be punishment for the wicked on earth, but im not sure how logic that is
It's not illogical at all. Nor is it un-biblical. The law of reaping and sewing is in full effect. Not in another life, but in this one. Belief in (UR) turns up the heat on us to be holy as He is holy. Paul points out in 1 Corinthians 6 that we are to be perfected here in this life so that we may be counted worthy to judge the world. There is a calling out there for a remnant who will be set apart as priests and kings.
1 Corinthians 6
1Dare any one of you, having a matter against another, prosecute his suit before the unjust, and not before the saints?
2Do ye not then know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world is judged by you, are ye unworthy of [the] smallest judgments?
3Do ye not know that we shall judge angels? and not then matters of this life?
4If then ye have judgments as to things of this life, set those [to judge] who are little esteemed in the assembly.
5I speak to you [to put you] to shame. Thus there is not a wise person among you, not even one, who shall be able to decide between his brethren!
6But brother prosecutes his suit with brother, and that before unbelievers.
7Already indeed then it is altogether a fault in you that ye have suits between yourselves. Why do ye not rather suffer wrong? why are ye not rather defrauded?
8But *ye* do wrong, and defraud, and this [your] brethren.
When he talks about those who are unrightous not being able to "inherit the kingdom" he is not talking about heaven.
1. Kingdom-Basileia (Transliterated)- royal power, kingship, dominion, rule
a.
not to be confused with an actual kingdom but rather the right or authority to rule over a kingdom b. of the royal power of Jesus as the triumphant Messiah
c. of the royal power and dignity conferred on Christians in the Messiah's kingdom
2. a kingdom, the territory subject to the rule of a king
3. used in the N.T. to refer to the reign of the Messiah
1. Inherit-Kleronomeo (Transliterated)to receive a lot, receive by lot
a. esp. to receive a part of an inheritance, receive as an inheritance, obtain by right of inheritance
b. to be an heir, to inherit
2. to receive the portion assigned to one, receive an allotted portion, receive as one's own or as a possession
3. to become partaker of, to obtain
nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will
inherit the
kingdom of God.
He is talking to believers who are expected to become holy as Christ is holy here in this life. Not some far off place or time. So, believing in (UR) does not give us an excuse to do nothing. On the contrary, it reveals the true purpose of our existance here; to become holy as Christ is holy right here and now.
there were these verses that brought me on the idea:
daniel 12,2
And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to aionon life, and some to reproaches and aionon abhorrence.
proverbs 11,31
If the righteous receive their due on earth, how much more the ungodly and the sinner!
Matthew 26,46 is a judgement about living men not about the dead, and its no judgement about unbelievers in the context but evil-doers, so this might punishment on earth as well
for me the concordant expositions are the most logic:
http://www.concordant.org/expohtml/DeathAndJudgment/TheJudgmentOfTheNations.html
if kolasis aionon is a judgement about nation, how long do u think might last the punishment of individuals?
somethink came to my mind, the jewish tradition says, human is responsible for its sin beginning at the age of 21, psalm 90,10 says:
Our days may come to seventy years, or eighty, if our strength endures; yet the best of them are but trouble and sorrow, for they quickly pass, and we fly away.
from 21 to 70 years are 49 years
the jubile year is the 50th year:
3. Mose 25,10
And ye shall hallow the fiftieth year, and proclaim liberty throughout all the land unto all the inhabitants thereof: it shall be a jubile unto you; and ye shall return every man unto his possession, and ye shall return every man unto his family.
might this a hint to the lenght of the punishment?
50 years of severe punishment might be enough for the most wicked man, what do you think about this thought?
Quote from: sven on November 30, 2008, 08:09:38 PM
if kolasis aionon is a judgement about nation, how long do u think might last the punishment of individuals?
somethink came to my mind, the jewish tradition says, human is responsible for its sin beginning at the age of 21, psalm 90,10 says:
Our days may come to seventy years, or eighty, if our strength endures; yet the best of them are but trouble and sorrow, for they quickly pass, and we fly away.
from 21 to 70 years are 49 years
the jubile year is the 50th year:
3. Mose 25,10
And ye shall hallow the fiftieth year, and proclaim liberty throughout all the land unto all the inhabitants thereof: it shall be a jubile unto you; and ye shall return every man unto his possession, and ye shall return every man unto his family.
might this a hint to the lenght of the punishment?
50 years of severe punishment might be enough for the most wicked man, what do you think about this thought?
Could be, I also had a few theories on this forums about the duration of punishment (based on hints in scripture) but I can't think where it is now. In fact there are many such theories all over these boards. I know Martin had a good one 2. Interesting but only God knows truthfully. The most accepted theory is that punishment can last up to 1000 years.
Blessings
Dee
QuoteI have been having another interesting thought concerning hell. Its just a thought and if some of you feel its got no basis in reality please tell me (in a nice way ).
Matthew 12:40 is a passage often used to try and affirm that the hell of ET is in the centre of the earth. Now whilst researching this I found something interesting. In this passage we assume Jesus is the one referred to as the son of man right, but Jesus was dead for 2 nights and was raised on the 3rd day, and the "person/persons" referred to here were in the heart of the earth for 3days and 3nights. Could hell / corrections only last 3 days? Now I think I have seen something like that on these boards before but I could'nt find it now. Please steer me to that thread (if it exists) or tell me what you think.
Blessings
DeeDee
Here is the quote from my theory Sven and here is what WhiteWings answered. In it is the link to the thread this was discussed.
Quotehttp://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=3570.0
Is a bit about that. Some seem to feel punishment is short.
Martin once wrote something to a similar effect. Something between 1 week and 3 months?
He came to that conclusion from combining verses all over the place. But that's all I can remember...
Let just assume Jesus was 3 days in hell. And that from that you can conclude that punishment also lasts 3 days.
Then there is another problem.
In those 3 days He also had to created hell, make it burn, wake up the dead etc.
Simply because if hell was already functional then some dead sinners will already be inthere for say 5000 years
Blessings
DeeDee
i think Jesus was just dead, i think there is nobody in heaven yet and nobody in "hell" yet, or how you take it, all people are in "hell" (scheol) until ressurection, i think punishment seems to be in future in front of the white throne, i think second death is death, a state of no-existence, for me the concordant expositions are the most logic, but i have no idea how long punishments lasts in front of the white throne, and what second death is.
Acts 2
29 Men, brethren! it is permitted to speak with freedom unto you concerning the patriarch David, that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is among us unto this day;
30 a prophet, therefore, being, and knowing that with an oath God did swear to him, out of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, to raise up the Christ, to sit upon his throne,
31 having foreseen, he did speak concerning the rising again of the Christ, that his soul was not left to hades, nor did his flesh see corruption.
32 `This Jesus did God raise up, of which we are all witnesses;
33 at the right hand then of God having been exalted -- also the promise of the Holy Spirit having received from the Father -- he was shedding forth this, which now ye see and hear;
34 for David did not go up to the heavens, and he saith himself: The Lord saith to my lord, Sit thou at my right hand,
this verse says that David didnt go up to heaven, so i quess nobody except Jesus is in heaven now, so also nobody is punished yet or has been punished after death in my view.
Quote from: sven on November 30, 2008, 09:48:11 PM
i think Jesus was just dead, i think there is nobody in heaven yet and nobody in "hell" yet, or how you take it, all people are in "hell" (scheol) until ressurection, i think punishment seems to be in future in front of the white throne, i think second death is death, a state of no-existence, for me the concordant expositions are the most logic, but i have no idea how long punishments lasts in front of the white throne, and what second death is.
Acts 2
29 Men, brethren! it is permitted to speak with freedom unto you concerning the patriarch David, that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is among us unto this day;
30 a prophet, therefore, being, and knowing that with an oath God did swear to him, out of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, to raise up the Christ, to sit upon his throne,
31 having foreseen, he did speak concerning the rising again of the Christ, that his soul was not left to hades, nor did his flesh see corruption.
32 `This Jesus did God raise up, of which we are all witnesses;
33 at the right hand then of God having been exalted -- also the promise of the Holy Spirit having received from the Father -- he was shedding forth this, which now ye see and hear;
34 for David did not go up to the heavens, and he saith himself: The Lord saith to my lord, Sit thou at my right hand,
this verse says that David didnt go up to heaven, so i quess nobody except Jesus is in heaven now, so also nobody is punished yet or has been punished after death in my view.
Yes there are many different ways of looking at it. Somethings hint toward people being dead / sleeping in the grave until Jesus comes back - the second coming. Other things hint toward people going to Heaven or punishment after they die. That is not the point tho. No one except God knows for sure in what order things happen and that is really not important. If we were meant to know for certain God would have told us. What the point IS tho and what IS important is the fact that there is NO ETERNAL hellfire or punishments, the fact that Jesus came and died for our sins to save us from ourselves and eternal death. Those are the only facts we need in this instance.
Blessings
Dee
QuoteWhat the point IS tho and what IS important is the fact that there is NO ETERNAL hellfire or punishments
thats true, how can a normal human beeing accept the idea of everlasting hell? or say this is just or hope that someone would go there? it will never go in my mind, every person should be glad when telling them, what these words meant, but so many people, they want hell to be real, why?
Because they have something to defend. If they give up on (ET) thay have to rethink their entire belief system.
Quote from: sven on November 30, 2008, 09:48:11 PM
i think punishment seems to be in future in front of the white throne,
Just think about it like this:
If people are already in hell or heaven they are already judged. That would make the White Throne judgement a joke.
I think that after burning 6000 years in hell people get the hint and don't need the White Throne judgement to confirm they are in pain/hell....
Has anyone seen these Youtube videos? I thought the guy did a pretty good job of explaining the universalist view of hell. This is part 1 of 4.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_KARi1p-M_s
Quote from: WhiteWings on December 04, 2008, 09:41:55 PM
Quote from: sven on November 30, 2008, 09:48:11 PM
i think punishment seems to be in future in front of the white throne,
Just think about it like this:
If people are already in hell or heaven they are already judged. That would make the White Throne judgement a joke.
I think that after burning 6000 years in hell people get the hint and don't need the White Throne judgement to confirm they are in pain/hell....
I just thought of something right now. The White Throne is the judgement we experience in this phase of our existence, while we are what we call 'alive' but Jesus calls dead or asleep. The Lake of Fire is where we are CAST. We are cast into death, into a realm that is very dark to our understanding but cast we are into it.
Just my :2c:
cp
Quote from: claypot on February 25, 2009, 03:31:26 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on December 04, 2008, 09:41:55 PM
Quote from: sven on November 30, 2008, 09:48:11 PM
i think punishment seems to be in future in front of the white throne,
Just think about it like this:
If people are already in hell or heaven they are already judged. That would make the White Throne judgement a joke.
I think that after burning 6000 years in hell people get the hint and don't need the White Throne judgement to confirm they are in pain/hell....
I just thought of something right now. The White Throne is the judgement we experience in this phase of our existence, while we are what we call 'alive' but Jesus calls dead or asleep. The Lake of Fire is where we are CAST. We are cast into death, into a realm that is very dark to our understanding but cast we are into it.
Just my :2c:
cp
There is a specific group of people that the lake of fire is reserved for . . .and it ain't us bro . . .it's only for those whose names (identity) is not in the book of life. God is my lake of fire . . . through Christ I am not only redeemed, but also cleansed . .. he's my laver, he's my candlestick, he's my bread, he's my praise and prayer . . .
Hey, I that reminds me . . .I just saw this in our last service . ..kinda cool I thought . . .
I've always seen and understood that the tabernacle is a pattern after the body of Christ . .with his feet as the altar of sacrifice, his pierced side as the laver, his hands as the candlestick holding the 7 flames (churches) which illuminate the bread . . .I got all of that . .but I would then always make the jump over the altar of incense and see the ark as the head . .the holy of holies setting on the shoulders . .but that would always be ignoring the positioning of the altar of incense.
Then it occurred to me . .the altar of incense is my head . . .a prayer is what ascends from the heart into the mind and out of the mouth . . .the head. with my "lips" I will praise thee . . .the entire body is what "leads up" to the holy of holies . . . Then what "is" the holy of holies in relation to the body?
It's the crown.
My head "was" crowned with a curse . .that's why Jesus wore the crown of thorns . .so show that the curse of the mind was crucified with Christ and has been replaced with a crown of gold . . .a crown of God. So now, we to are also crowned with this same crown. That which was once cursed is now reversed an blessed.
Revelation 19:12
His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
No man knows the identity . . no mind of flesh can comprehend and identify with the personal, intimate relationship between the Father and his Son . . .Between the Son and his Bride.
Quote from: Nathan on February 25, 2009, 05:48:48 PM
Quote from: claypot on February 25, 2009, 03:31:26 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on December 04, 2008, 09:41:55 PM
Quote from: sven on November 30, 2008, 09:48:11 PM
i think punishment seems to be in future in front of the white throne,
Just think about it like this:
If people are already in hell or heaven they are already judged. That would make the White Throne judgement a joke.
I think that after burning 6000 years in hell people get the hint and don't need the White Throne judgement to confirm they are in pain/hell....
I just thought of something right now. The White Throne is the judgement we experience in this phase of our existence, while we are what we call 'alive' but Jesus calls dead or asleep. The Lake of Fire is where we are CAST. We are cast into death, into a realm that is very dark to our understanding but cast we are into it.
Just my :2c:
cp
There is a specific group of people that the lake of fire is reserved for . . .and it ain't us bro . . .it's only for those whose names (identity) is not in the book of life. God is my lake of fire . . . through Christ I am not only redeemed, but also cleansed . .. he's my laver, he's my candlestick, he's my bread, he's my praise and prayer . . .
Hey, I that reminds me . . .I just saw this in our last service . ..kinda cool I thought . . .
I've always seen and understood that the tabernacle is a pattern after the body of Christ . .with his feet as the altar of sacrifice, his pierced side as the laver, his hands as the candlestick holding the 7 flames (churches) which illuminate the bread . . .I got all of that . .but I would then always make the jump over the altar of incense and see the ark as the head . .the holy of holies setting on the shoulders . .but that would always be ignoring the positioning of the altar of incense.
Then it occurred to me . .the altar of incense is my head . . .a prayer is what ascends from the heart into the mind and out of the mouth . . .the head. with my "lips" I will praise thee . . .the entire body is what "leads up" to the holy of holies . . . Then what "is" the holy of holies in relation to the body?
It's the crown.
My head "was" crowned with a curse . .that's why Jesus wore the crown of thorns . .so show that the curse of the mind was crucified with Christ and has been replaced with a crown of gold . . .a crown of God. So now, we to are also crowned with this same crown. That which was once cursed is now reversed an blessed.
Revelation 19:12
His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
No man knows the identity . . no mind of flesh can comprehend and identify with the personal, intimate relationship between the Father and his Son . . .Between the Son and his Bride.
There is so much still in my very essence that needs to be cast into the Lake of Fire.
I am seeing some interesting things in your descriptions Brother and I want to check into them more to see how they apply to my life and the lives of all of us. You are good at describing things.
The tabernacle is the divine workings within us would you say? You know, we are the temple.........
cp
Oh, absolutely! We are fashioned after Christ . .our personal walk must first take us through the altar of sacrifice where we are burned, our flesh is consumed and just as the animal sacrifice was transformed from matter to a gas . . .(smoke) we are transfromed from walking in flesh, to walking in Spirit.
The Laver is our water baptism . .it "is" a visible manifestation of an invisible experience . . .but it's the invisible experience that brings the completion, not the water baptism. Our feet were purfied . . our walk was transformed at the altar of sacrifice, our hands are washed at the laver . .our works are purified through the washing of the spirit as it submerges us into the holiness within the body of God.
It also ushers us through the veil that leads into the temple. On the right, a candle stick with six branches . . .the number of man . .and up the center is the trunk that rises above the 6 branches which contains the 7th flame . . .they burn in unison to illuminate the bread. Remember, the laver washes the hands of the priests . .the baptism of water/spirit/fire washes our works . .to illuminate light upon the bread . .the bread . the 12 loaves . . the government of Christ . . .he is the bread. 12 loaves=12 tribes= nation of Israel . . .we are all spiritual Jews . .grafted "in" the kingdom of God.
The bread gives nourishment to the body . . . this would be something to keep in mind in our trivial debates with one another . .to first ask ourselves "Does what I'm about to write have the potential to bring nourishment? Or criticism, rebuke? Is it constructive? Or destructive? Bread of the temple is to bring nourishment to the body.
My mind is not to worry . .but "pray" about everything . .the altar of incense is a picture of a heavenly mind . . .a mind filled with heavenly thoughts . . .praying praise . .and "that" leads me into the very presence . . . the promises . the rewards of the promises . .the crown . . the blessed mind is a mind that is at rest . . .the holy of holies is the realm of rest.
It is an overlay of Christ . .it is an overlay of "me".
:cloud9: Amen Nathan, good post..... :thumbsup:
If I could but add; the bread of faces (faces mean natures) of all 12 of those tribes are formed within us, as we eat of it in the light of Christ. It ALL speaks to us of spiritual realities found in Him. Blessings....
Quote from: Nathan on February 25, 2009, 07:52:20 PM
Oh, absolutely! We are fashioned after Christ . .our personal walk must first take us through the altar of sacrifice where we are burned, our flesh is consumed and just as the animal sacrifice was transformed from matter to a gas . . .(smoke) we are transfromed from walking in flesh, to walking in Spirit.
The Laver is our water baptism . .it "is" a visible manifestation of an invisible experience . . .but it's the invisible experience that brings the completion, not the water baptism. Our feet were purfied . . our walk was transformed at the altar of sacrifice, our hands are washed at the laver . .our works are purified through the washing of the spirit as it submerges us into the holiness within the body of God.
It also ushers us through the veil that leads into the temple. On the right, a candle stick with six branches . . .the number of man . .and up the center is the trunk that rises above the 6 branches which contains the 7th flame . . .they burn in unison to illuminate the bread. Remember, the laver washes the hands of the priests . .the baptism of water/spirit/fire washes our works . .to illuminate light upon the bread . .the bread . the 12 loaves . . the government of Christ . . .he is the bread. 12 loaves=12 tribes= nation of Israel . . .we are all spiritual Jews . .grafted "in" the kingdom of God.
The bread gives nourishment to the body . . . this would be something to keep in mind in our trivial debates with one another . .to first ask ourselves "Does what I'm about to write have the potential to bring nourishment? Or criticism, rebuke? Is it constructive? Or destructive? Bread of the temple is to bring nourishment to the body.
My mind is not to worry . .but "pray" about everything . .the altar of incense is a picture of a heavenly mind . . .a mind filled with heavenly thoughts . . .praying praise . .and "that" leads me into the very presence . . . the promises . the rewards of the promises . .the crown . . the blessed mind is a mind that is at rest . . .the holy of holies is the realm of rest.
It is an overlay of Christ . .it is an overlay of "me".
Wowzer Nathan. I looked into the Tabernacle in Ex 26...... and only the making of a human person could compare in its complexity! You have drawn great comparisons yet I see you have but touched all that is there.
I'm a thinkin we should start a new thread and walk through the Tabernacle and how it is analogous to our beings and how it is us right now.
cp
Quote from: claypot on February 25, 2009, 11:29:17 PM
I'm a thinkin we should start a new thread and walk through the Tabernacle and how it is analogous to our beings and how it is us right now. cp
:cloud9: Well, seeing how Heb. 10 tells us it's the pattern of heavenly (spiritual) things, I don't understand why everyone doesn't study the tabernacle, so sounds like a plan to me.... :thumbsup: Blessings....
Quote from: Cardinal on February 26, 2009, 01:37:42 AM
Quote from: claypot on February 25, 2009, 11:29:17 PM
I'm a thinkin we should start a new thread and walk through the Tabernacle and how it is analogous to our beings and how it is us right now. cp
:cloud9: Well, seeing how Heb. 10 tells us it's the pattern of heavenly (spiritual) things, I don't understand why everyone doesn't study the tabernacle, so sounds like a plan to me.... :thumbsup: Blessings....
been long a coming..gee I like to learn :icon_flower:
Quote from: Cardinal on February 26, 2009, 01:37:42 AM
so sounds like a plan to me.... :thumbsup: Blessings....
I would love to see a thread re: this. I have not studied the tabernacle and would love to learn.
Z
do you think this verse might have a deeper meaning?
Jeremiah 31:40
And the whole valley of the dead bodies, and of the ashes, and all the fields unto the torrent Kidron, unto the corner of the horse-gate toward the east, shall be holy unto Jehovah: it shall not be plucked up, nor overthrown any more for ever
according to the footnote of a German translation, this valley is the valley of Hinnom, Gehenna
Absolutely . . I think EVERY verse has a deeper meaning . . . It's Christmas every day with the Lord . . .he gives us rich and expensive gifts that are wrapped in his word. As exquisite as the wrapping is, the gift is that much greater.
So if hell is not merely a place where people burn and scream forever (because what God is revealing to me is it is not forever, praise God)....than what IS hell exactly?
I know theirs some different ideas and views floating around but what can we make of it? In revelations it says that hell was "cast into the lake of fire" so then also what is the lake of fire...are they both corrective purposes or what?
ive heard some say that the lake of fire is God himself, Im not sure what I think of that just yet but...yeah
:cloud9: I just thought I'd throw this out there for anyone who wants to think on it. I had a dream/vision once that really startled me. I "awoke" spiritually (though still asleep physically), to see NOTHING but lava (lake of fire?) EVERYWHERE. I didn't even see any part of my own body; all I saw or was aware of was this lava and the red glow it gave off.
I then jolted awake from the shock of it and I was like, "WHOA! WHAT IS THIS GOD?!", thinking, this could not be good, I'm in trouble now. :mblush: :winkgrin:
And what He gave me was that lava was as His love, the OVERFLOWING scourge that heals everything that it touches. When He comes, the mountains MELT like wax. It is as His SEED, that comes down from the mount of God, ie. saviors will arise on Mt. Zion. Blessings....
Quote from: NinjaWizards777 on March 31, 2009, 05:32:08 PM
I know theirs some different ideas and views floating around but what can we make of it? In revelations it says that hell was "cast into the lake of fire" so then also what is the lake of fire...are they both corrective purposes or what?
Both?
I think hell simply is another name for grave, tomb and of course helmet :happy3:
QuoteWord History: Hell comes to us directly from Old English hel. Because the Roman Church prevailed in England from an early date, the Roman—that is, Mediterranean—belief that hell was hot prevailed there too; in Old English hel is a black and fiery place of eternal torment for the damned. But because the Vikings were converted to Christianity centuries after the Anglo-Saxons, the Old Norse hel, from the same source as Old English hel, retained its earlier pagan senses as both a place and a person. As a place, hel is the abode of oathbreakers, other evil persons, and those unlucky enough not to have died in battle. It contrasts sharply with Valhalla, the hall of slain heroes. Unlike the Mediterranean hell, the Old Norse hel is very cold. Hel is also the name of the goddess or giantess who presides in hel, the half blue-black, half white daughter of Loki and the giantess Angrbotha. The Indo-European root behind these Germanic words is *kel-, "to cover, conceal" (so hell is the "concealed place"); it also gives us hall, hole, hollow, and helmet.
Why is hell cast in LoF? -> just some thoughts of a heretic so skip to the next post...
Hell=grave and grave of course has a strong link with death. "Death where is your victory", "No more death", "Final enemy"
I think casting hell into LoF is just one of the many ways of repeatingly saying death does no longer exit.
The good people are resurrected long ago. Maybe the hell/graves are completely with people in it are thrown into LoF.
A bit in line with the sheep and goats that are cast into LoF.
You also wrote that some say God is LoF. I'm not sure of anything but that's closesed to what I think.
But I don't see it as fire. I don't think it even remotely looks like fire. Just as I think whole humanity isn't transformed in either a goat or a sheep on judgement day.
Quote from: Cardinal on March 31, 2009, 05:42:18 PM
to see NOTHING but lava (lake of fire?) EVERYWHERE. I didn't even see any part of my own body; all I saw or was aware of was this lava and the red glow it gave off.
So all the :blah: about lava is true but it isn't painful.
:cloud9: Define "painful". :laughing7: I've been in pain one way or another since I met God, as the fire of His Spirit purges me, and really annoys those around me. :winkgrin: Blessings....
Im not personally convinved that that whatever "hell" is supposed to reference to is death. Im not sure that makes sense
"And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into [death]."?
what? everyone must "die"...im not sure thats what is implied
Everybody dies. Everybody is part of the kingdom of Father. But not everybody is part of the kingdom of the Son.
I think your verse refers to that?
Verse altered the way I see it:
And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body not being part of the first resurrection/kingdom.
I'm sure someone will post some relavant comments....
:cloud9: Makes perfect sense to me if hell since I believe "hell" is really Sheol, a type of perdition for the souls of men NOT made perfect or complete IN Him, and for death, as it is the last enemy. There again, I think Christendom missed understanding that and so made this horrendous mistake, because they lost the Jewish influence of the church that they had at the beginning.
So to me all He is saying is that all that is left not in Him being perfected, WILL BE. Blessings...
Hi Card,
I couldn't help but relate lava to [hot rock].
and stones of fire
His Holy Mountain being built up
through this process NEW LAND FORMS[earth]
also to tie in this scripture..the knowledge of the Lord
will cover the earth...and there was no more sea
and for some reason..I want to tie in Law and Bones with stone
Secrets of Enoch 29
And for all the heavenly troops I imaged the image and essence of fire, and my eye looked at the very hard firm rock,
and from the gleam of my eye the lightening received it's very wonderful and delightful nature, which is both fire in water and water in fire,and one does not put out the other,nor does the one dry up the other.Therefore the lightening is brighter than the sun,softer than water and firmer than hard rock.
And from the rock I cut off a great fire, and from the fire I created the orders of the incorpeal 10 troops of angels.
And their weapons are feiry and their rain-ment a burning flame
And I commanded that each one should stand in his order.
Don't know..but when I read the above fiery lava etc all come to mind like your spiritual vision
:cloud9: I like it! The reason you seeing bone and stone, is because our bones are made up of calcium (which is a stony thing), and the law is as stone, which is why not a bone of His was broken, and also our stony heart (Eve) that was made from a rib (covers the TRUE heart of celestial flesh/Christ).
Loved the part about the new land forming from the lava; that speaks to me of the glorified body, as made of molten law, ie. law the Holy Ghost has consumed.
The mountains melt like wax; He showed me that this is as the law melting beneath His feet in us (the ELEMENTAL things that we leave behind to go on unto perfection).
And it makes the waters below the firmament (law realm) solid that we might walk upon (or above) them to walk in the firmament (heaven/realm of Spirit). It's ALL good, isn't it?! Blessings....
Quote from: NinjaWizards777 on March 31, 2009, 11:17:44 PM
Im not personally convinved that that whatever "hell" is supposed to reference to is death. Im not sure that makes sense
"And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into [death]."?
what? everyone must "die"...im not sure thats what is implied
Hi Ninja, you are right in this case.
WW is correct about hell meaning "grave" or "state of the dead". But that is not all the meanings of "hell".
You really need to read some in-depth studies on hell to figure this all out.
Here is a quick summary: Hell is translated from 4 words:
sheol - means "grave" or "state of the dead" in hebrew
hades - means "grave" or "state of the dead" in greek
gehenna - means valley of hinnom or valley of gehenna - this is a place where the garbage and criminals were burned up - can be used as a metaphor for judgement.
tartarus - used one time to refer to the abyss
Yet all of these are translated as "hell" in many bibles.
Too make matters worse, in the KJV, sheol/hades is translated as "grave" about half the time and "hell" about half the time.
The verse you mention above about it being better to cut off your hand than enter hell is talking about "gehenna". Jesus was talking about judgement: it is better to cut off your hand (spiritually) than enter the lake of fire. He was talking about how we need to corrected and purged - spiritually. We need to cut out of the part of heart (spiritually) that causes us to sin. Cut out our spiritual eye, spiritual hand, etc. If we don't we will go into judgement where it will be done for us.
Either we do it now in this life (judged in this life), or do it later in the lake of fire (judged in the lake of fire). One way or another we are judged into righteousness (Isaiah 26:9).
Sorry if I'm rambling a bit here, its getting late....
Legoman,
You are right about Gehenna. And IMO partly right about Tartarus.
Indeed Tartarus is translated as hell; but it's never linked to the faith of humans. Only the most wicked of the angels. Not that is really matters (in this discussion).
QuoteEither we do it now in this life (judged in this life), or do it later in the lake of fire (judged in the lake of fire). One way or another we are judged into righteousness (Isaiah 26:9).
So LoF is an afterlife version of Gehenna? If your answer is yes then I don't understand how.
When I read about LoF I see it as sort of punishment but mostly a way to come to spiritual understanding.
So LoF has a teaching effect. Something I can't say of Gehenna. People cast in Gehenna usally got killed/executed. The majority of them died in a state hate. So I see no teaching.
Hi WW,
Yeah I haven't studied tartarus too much, I just know its used only in one verse.
This is how I see Gehenna. Gehenna, the literal place, was a burning garbage dump, where the city threw its trash, and they burned up the bodies of criminals. Whether the criminals were dead or alive when they were thrown in there, I'm not sure. So it was a place to burn up the refuse, the stuff they didn't want. It was for purging.
Jesus said it would be better if we should cast off our our offending limb or eye, instead of throwing our whole body into Gehenna fire. Now of course Jesus was not talking about the literal valley of Gehenna, but only using it as a symbol. A symbol for throwing away the stuff we don't want - for purging.
What did Jesus mean when he said we should cut off our hand or cut out our eye? He is talking spiritually here - His words are spirit. Say we have a lustful eye that likes to look at pretty women (not that far of a stretch!) - how should we deal with this sinful nature? Cut it out! The physical eye is not the problem - the problem is the "spiritual eye" in our heart. Spiritually, remove the eye so we don't do that behavior anymore.
This is really talking about being judged right now in this life. Part of what this life is about is purging the spiritual limbs that cause us to sin - we can get rid of them by judging ourselves now and with God's help we will be free from sin. Eventually we won't do the sinful behavior if we learn how not to. This is the learning process of Gehenna - and ultimately it won't happen for you unless God wills it. The learning process is the purging effect that the literal Gehenna did, which is analogous to the purging we must do in our own life.
So Jesus is saying its better if we learn ourself now, rather than later in the Lake of Fire. But either way, our sinful behavior is going to be cut out - a little bit at a time in this life - or all at once in the Lake of fire. Perhaps it is a bit gentler to see our flaws slowly in this life, rather than have them all exposed at once in the lake of fire. I'm not really sure.
What is the lake of fire? IMHO it is composed of God and the body of believers who will be the chosen elect. They will be the judges and priests that will help save the mass of unbelievers.
JMHO, and myself, I still have a long way to go before I am done with my spiritual gehenna...
Ok, a spiritual Gehenna.
I assume that it takes place right here, right now.
Because AFAIK the only afterlife 'fire' is LoF.
QuoteSo Jesus is saying its better if we learn ourself now, rather than later in the Lake of Fire. But either way, our sinful behavior is going to be cut out - a little bit at a time in this life - or all at once in the Lake of fire. Perhaps it is a bit gentler to see our flaws slowly in this life, rather than have them all exposed at once in the lake of fire. I'm not really sure.
I'm sure you are not far from the truth because Jesus repeatinly warned for severe afterlife judgement.
So I bet it won't be a process that takes a nano second.
Legoman -
Your post makes a lot of sense to me. The New Testament scriptures urge us to purify ourselves as He is pure. The time we have in this world can be used wisely... to cut off those sinful limbs and pluck out those sinful eyes, etc... so that when it comes our time to pass out of the natural world, we are not hurt by the 2nd death which is the Lake of Fire. There is a scripture that says, "Who shall dwell with the devouring fire....?" and another that says "Our God is a consuming fire". Also, "Flesh and blood can not inherit the Kingdom of God".... I deduce that our ultimate destiny is to be reunited with God completely and there are many spiritual things which will be burned up in His presence. I think while in this body of flesh, we are not able to truly see the brightness of God's glory for all that it is. It all sounds very serious and scary, and perhaps in that sense, we should have more godly fear. Even many devout people have become rather cavalier about spiritual purity (myself included) because this world is constantly tugging on us to become comfortable with our present circumstances. I will grant you that I'm just thinking out loud. I don't know exactly what it is like to 'leave this body'. Some think of it more as a deliverance from suffering - a more heavenly experience in which we are bathed in the light of love. I suppose we will all find out soon enough.
Peace -
Anne
the concept of Hell is still really confusing to me. Because were talking about gehenna, sheol, tartarus, hades (and for the ET person "death")....all these different terms described as one word...Hell. but as gary amiralts poem is titled "what the hell is hell?"
is sheol a place, a "hell" where people go for a time...the dead? to be cast into the lake of fire for purification?
is "hell" in all its essence merely a state of mind here on earth as ive heard it described many times?
blah...im tired. more tomorrow
I see it this way:
Sheol/Hades, the realm of souls both good and evil (I'm convinced of soulsleep)
Gehenna, the valley of Hinnom, symbolic threat of a shamefull death
Tartarus (also Abyssos), prison of angelic beings
the lake of fire = second death, here ones can speculate what second death is
Psalm 21:8, 9 - "Your hand will find out all your enemies; your right hand will find out all who hate you. You will make them as a fiery furnace when-you-appear. The LORD will swallow them up in his wrath, and fire will consume them."
God does not appear until after the second resurrection and judgment day is over.
Where does it say the Book of Life is closed to the adding of any more names before the second resurrection, and closed all during the long 'day' of judgment (the long day of the examination of all things when "all the books will be opened" and "not one thing shall remain hidden that shall not be uncovered")?
The LORD's appearing - Revelation 21:1-5. The above reference is from the New Revised Standard Version, but the Young's Literal is interesting too..
YLT - Psalm 21:8,9 - "Thy hand cometh to all Thine enemies, Thy right hand doth find Thy haters. Thou makest them as a furnace of fire, At the time of Thy presence. Jehovah in His anger doth swallow them, And fire doth devour them."
--- Anyone not born again at His (Jehovah/YHWH/ the LORD's) appearing will be consumed "our God is a consuming fire" - it's His substance.. But! His appearing is not until after the second resurrection and day of judgment.
YLT - Revelation 21
1And I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth did pass away, and the sea is not any more;
2and I, John, saw the holy city -- new Jerusalem -- coming down from God out of the heaven, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband;
3and I heard a great voice out of the heaven, saying, `Lo, the tabernacle of God [is] with men, and He will tabernacle with them, and they shall be His peoples, and God Himself shall be with them -- their God,
4and God shall wipe away every tear from their eyes, and the death shall not be any more, nor sorrow, nor crying, nor shall there be any more pain, because the first things did go away.'
5And He who is sitting upon the throne said, `Lo, new I make all things; and He saith to me, `Write, because these words are true and stedfast;'
getting past other issues, eh hem, i have found something of scripture that is making me wonder about "hell" and these nde's that people have where they go to hell and see people burning in the center of the earth..people say it is volcanic lava which contains sulphur in it...
Deuteronomy 32: 22-26:
For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell (Sheol), and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains. I will heap mischiefs upon them; I will spend mine arrows upon them. They shall be burnt with hunger, and devoured with burning heat, and with bitter destruction: I will also send the teeth of beasts upon them, with the poison of serpents of the dust. The sword without, and terror within, shall destroy both the young man and the virgin, THE SUCKLING ALSO with the man of gray hairs. I said, I would scatter them into corners, I would make the remembrance of them to cease from among men:
under mountains[volcanoes???] and ref. to deepest sheol [hell]...how is this interpreted in cus????? et people think this is where the lof of fire is.... i tend to believe it is spiritual as has been "proven" by spiritual interpretation and that it has to do with cleansing...but if people in this lake of fire are in the center of the earth[only god and angels could be there] then those in the kingdom would not even see them there....out of sight and out of mind so to speak...can you help me with this???? i am wanting to share cus with others too....
Notice the words, "Burnt with hunger". I believe, if you look at the context of the chapter, you will see God is speaking through Moses prophetically about the unfaithfulness of His people Israel. The are references, expressed poetically and prophetically, about the judgment He would bring upon them for worshipping false Gods- which included abominations that would cause them to incur His wrath.Yet, if you look at Hosea, and Jeremiah, and many other similar places where the Lord speaks of judgment upon Israel for their unfaithfulness- God follows with promises of restoration and mercy.
Quote from: lostnbroken on October 15, 2014, 01:34:49 AM
getting past other issues, eh hem, i have found something of scripture that is making me wonder about "hell" and these nde's that people have where they go to hell and see people burning in the center of the earth..people say it is volcanic lava which contains sulphur in it...
Deuteronomy 32: 22-26:
For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell (Sheol), and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains. I will heap mischiefs upon them; I will spend mine arrows upon them. They shall be burnt with hunger, and devoured with burning heat, and with bitter destruction: I will also send the teeth of beasts upon them, with the poison of serpents of the dust. The sword without, and terror within, shall destroy both the young man and the virgin, THE SUCKLING ALSO with the man of gray hairs. I said, I would scatter them into corners, I would make the remembrance of them to cease from among men:
under mountains[volcanoes???] and ref. to deepest sheol [hell]...how is this interpreted in cus????? et people think this is where the lof of fire is.... i tend to believe it is spiritual as has been "proven" by spiritual interpretation and that it has to do with cleansing...but if people in this lake of fire are in the center of the earth[only god and angels could be there] then those in the kingdom would not even see them there....out of sight and out of mind so to speak...can you help me with this???? i am wanting to share cus with others too....
Mystical experiences are perceived differently in different cultures, and I think that is why some folks who have been taught that "hell" is torture in fire have these very negative experiences. Most NDE/OBE folks seem to share the common vision of the peaceful loving light and come back from it not fearing death and believing God is love.
Quote from: lostnbroken on October 15, 2014, 01:34:49 AM
getting past other issues, eh hem, i have found something of scripture that is making me wonder about "hell" and these nde's that people have where they go to hell and see people burning in the center of the earth..people say it is volcanic lava which contains sulphur in it...
Deuteronomy 32: 22-26:
For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell (Sheol), and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains. I will heap mischiefs upon them; I will spend mine arrows upon them. They shall be burnt with hunger, and devoured with burning heat, and with bitter destruction: I will also send the teeth of beasts upon them, with the poison of serpents of the dust. The sword without, and terror within, shall destroy both the young man and the virgin, THE SUCKLING ALSO with the man of gray hairs. I said, I would scatter them into corners, I would make the remembrance of them to cease from among men:
under mountains[volcanoes???] and ref. to deepest sheol [hell]...how is this interpreted in cus????? et people think this is where the lof of fire is.... i tend to believe it is spiritual as has been "proven" by spiritual interpretation and that it has to do with cleansing...but if people in this lake of fire are in the center of the earth[only god and angels could be there] then those in the kingdom would not even see them there....out of sight and out of mind so to speak...can you help me with this???? i am wanting to share cus with others too....
Just to add a bit to what Eaglesway's said, fire can be understood as a symbol for God's judgment, which I think is a great symbol because fire tends to to REDUCE the size of what it consumes, which to me speaks of humbling. In the book of Peter we are told that the early church was experiencing fiery trials of their faith by those who were persecuting them and in that sense, God was using that to humble the church and bring forth the character of Christ.
In the case of the scripture you quoted, what I see is an association of sheol (death/grave) as being a judgment of God through he application of the fire image with it. That association, to me, shows how God uses death as a judgment upon those who are disobedient, both physical death at times, and at other times the metaphysical death of death in sin (prodigal son).
I think the same can be said about the "fire eonian."
http://www.saviourofall.org/charts/ChartOfJudgments.html
this helps...so for those who think the literal "hell" or literal lake of fire being the center of the earth/lava, are just again translating it by their "carnal" understanding and not spiritual...god is spirit and he does everything like-wise...i am ever being convinced he would not send people to such a place as this and it is because he loves everyone, even those he would say are his enemies[love your enemies as he does] when i can see him in this light and not as a vengeful being who only wants to cause harm to others , i feel even more love for him...he truly loves ALL :HeartThrob:
Quote from: lostnbroken on October 15, 2014, 02:55:09 AM
this helps...so for those who think the literal "hell" or literal lake of fire being the center of the earth/lava, are just again translating it by their "carnal" understanding and not spiritual...god is spirit and he does everything like-wise...i am ever being convinced he would not send people to such a place as this and it is because he loves everyone, even those he would say are his enemies[love your enemies as he does] when i can see him in this light and not as a vengeful being who only wants to cause harm to others , i feel even more love for him...he truly loves ALL :HeartThrob:
I believe so. Paul said that to know the things of God we need spiritual discernment, to compare spiritual to spiritual. With the hellfire teaching, we have a comparison of spiritual to carnal. Most of us, in fact I think all of us currently here at tentmaker forum have journeyed to a place of seeing the spiritual in the fire of God as spoken through prophecies, parables, and visions. It doesn't mean that we all see it the same way, but we do see that Jesus really would not burn people will literal fire. I am not even sure how that would be done, given that they believe the body stays in the ground when people go to hell. Go figure. :dontknow:
Quote from: lostnbroken on October 15, 2014, 02:55:09 AM
this helps...so for those who think the literal "hell" or literal lake of fire being the center of the earth/lava, are just again translating it by their "carnal" understanding and not spiritual...god is spirit and he does everything like-wise...i am ever being convinced he would not send people to such a place as this and it is because he loves everyone, even those he would say are his enemies[love your enemies as he does] when i can see him in this light and not as a vengeful being who only wants to cause harm to others , i feel even more love for him...he truly loves ALL :HeartThrob:
Amen, sister.
Btw, you may also come across the symbol of God standing on their ashes. Some folks take that to mean annihilationism. To be under Gods feet means to be placed under his rule and authority. He stands above us, meaning we are under his kingship. The fire of God as judgment, in one way or another, brings pride down to size (ashes). God stands on their ashes showing that the humble have been brought to a place of being under the kingship of Christ. By repenting and turning to Christ shows that he is standing on our ashes. That's how I view that.
1 Cor 15, talks about God will bring everything and everyone under his feet so that God will be all in all. It speaks to Jesus eliminating all rule and authority, then he stands above them. It's a good thing. Not a bad thing,
Amen. All will be justified, reconciled, vivified, and subjected when God is all in all.
:thumbsup:
:cloud9: this gives me new hope in that he will save my family who died without knowing him or being re-born...they and ALL will be made new and whole so we can ALL eb with him...this is my heart..
That is one of the best things about knowing the truth of scripture.
Quote from: lostnbroken on October 15, 2014, 03:19:23 AM
:cloud9: this gives me new hope in that he will save my family who died without knowing him or being re-born...they and ALL will be made new and whole so we can ALL eb with him...this is my heart..
No doubt about it. :HeartThrob:
Jesus really does love them. You can believe that without qualifications. :dsunny:
I remember when I first believed that everyone will be saved my first thought was "so Jesus really does love everyone." :laughing7:
Quote from: lostnbroken on October 15, 2014, 01:34:49 AM
under mountains[volcanoes???]
Mountain can mean just that, a mountain.
But it often means an authority. A mighty nation. Where mountains. Burning those mountains means destroying nations. Mountain Babylon was destroyed. It's power is reduced to zero.
Quote from: lostnbroken on October 15, 2014, 03:19:23 AM
:cloud9: this gives me new hope in that he will save my family who died without knowing him or being re-born...they and ALL will be made new and whole so we can ALL eb with him...this is my heart..
The hell you say? :declare:
God has never not loved anyone in your family.
It really is an awesome thing to look back on history that we once had muddied with false notions and see that even in all the turmoil, God loved.
God loved, God loves, God will love!
:runaroundsayingwhoot!:
WHOOT!
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=FaHEusBG20c
Should this song have been banned or censured? It was a hit in Britain in the 1960s.
I remember that crazy song. No, I don't think they should have banned it. Maybe they should play it in church because all it's doing is telling it like it is even though most people don't want to think about it or talk about it.
It could be used as an anti-hell song.
I think it's a perfect picture of the insanity of the hell doctrine.
:eek:
oh dear. I used to love to dance to that song.. especially the wind at the end.. But never knew the video.. nor the words.. I think it does show the insanity of the hell doctrine.. and maybe it should be required viewing in churches!
First, here's Gary Amirault's video about what Reality Outreach are doing:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2bszxqm6m2E
Then this is the website of Reality Outreach:
www.realityoutreach.org
It seems that Reality Outreach want to get their message of 'be saved or go to hell' across blatently using drama. I think they have got a nerve.
It really is sad that the lie of "hell" is considered to be the best way to get folks to commit to God, and those of us considered to be heretics are going to that imaginary "hell" simply for believing the truth of the word of God that all on the earth and in the heavens will be reconciled to God through Christ's blood on the cross so that God may be all in all.
:cloud9: What's sad is that if that is their only reason for coming to God, He's probably feeling pretty shortchanged, I imagine. :sigh:
Yeah, that really is the saddest thing about the lie of "hell," that it dishonors our loving Father by changing him into a sadistic fiend worse than all of the notorious mass murderers of humanity.
Quote from: Tom on May 19, 2015, 02:55:28 AM
Yeah, that really is the saddest thing about the lie of "hell," that it dishonors our loving Father by changing him into a sadistic fiend worse than all of the notorious mass murderers of humanity.
awesome post :iagree:
Quote from: Joanna on May 11, 2015, 09:44:37 PM
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=FaHEusBG20c
Should this song have been banned or censured? It was a hit in Britain in the 1960s.
I once owned the LP with that song on it, but it eventually got the awl, along with a lot of my rock & roll albums at the time. I'd rather listen to Norman Greenbaum.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=x2sjv386O0Q
A song by the English band Sweet I heard as a child.
Chinn/Chapman
Look out!
Mama let me out on a saturday night, she said now
Go out and get her go and hold her tight
I said now Mama, you don't understand
Ev'ry time I touch her hand
It's like I'm burning in the fires of hell
And if I hold her too long
You never can tell what'll happen to me
I wouldn't want you to see
Look out
She's a hell raiser, star chaser, trail blazer
Natural born raver, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah
She's a hell raiser, star chaser, trail blazer
Natural born raver, yeah, yeah, yeah
Look out!
She's like a live bomb shell
Like a flash out of hell
And when she's shaking her ooh
Everyone fell at her feet
And that's neat and she took me completely
By surprise with her ultra sonic eyes
That were flashing like hysterical danger signs
That said beware where you tread
Or you'll go out of your head
Look out
She's a hell raiser, star chaser, trail blazer
Natural born raver, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah
She's a hell raiser, star chaser, trail blazer
Natural born raver, yeah, yeah, yeah
Look out!
Hell raiser, hell raiser, hell raiser
Hell raiser, hell raiser, ooh
Now Mama, you don't understand
Ev'ry time I touch her hand
It's like I'm burning in the fires of hell
And if I hold her too long
You never can tell what'll happen to me
I wouldn't want you to see...
Jesus didn't go to hell for 3 days and 3 nights, that's isn't what Luke 23:46 taught - his spirit went back to his father after Christ died on the cross!
There ya go, Baptist myth debunked!
Quote from: omegaflare on October 02, 2015, 05:19:04 AM
Jesus didn't go to hell for 3 days and 3 nights, that's isn't what Luke 23:46 taught - his spirit went back to his father after Christ died on the cross!
There ya go, Baptist myth debunked!
I think to say that Jesus went to Hell is close to blasphemy, but then Hell does not exist for Jesus, or anyone else, to go to.
I can't help but think of how Jesus said "unless you repent ye shall all likewise perish".. that says to me, the result of non-reconciliation with God (if it were possible and not merely potential) results in perishing.. He didn't say "unless you repent you will live forever in torturous fire". ThAt, is an ancient pagan belief.. the "place of the dead" instead of the grave, first was a place or maybe state, then it became fiery.. Keep the people in line.. and some mad priest was used to institute fiery sacrifices..
Quote from: Lazarus Short on October 02, 2015, 05:51:02 AM
Quote from: omegaflare on October 02, 2015, 05:19:04 AM
Jesus didn't go to hell for 3 days and 3 nights, that's isn't what Luke 23:46 taught - his spirit went back to his father after Christ died on the cross!
There ya go, Baptist myth debunked!
I think to say that Jesus went to Hell is close to blasphemy, but then Hell does not exist for Jesus, or anyone else, to go to.
Hell (Hades) is the grave physically but what is hell (Hades) spiritually?
God bless you,
SeventhDay
Quote from: omegaflare on October 02, 2015, 05:19:04 AM
Jesus didn't go to hell for 3 days and 3 nights, that's isn't what Luke 23:46 taught - his spirit went back to his father after Christ died on the cross!
There ya go, Baptist myth debunked!
The soul without the spirit is dead! :dsunny:
God bless you,
SeventhDay
Quote from: marie glen on October 03, 2015, 12:57:20 AM
I can't help but think of how Jesus said "unless you repent ye shall all likewise perish".. that says to me, the result of non-reconciliation with God (if it were possible and not merely potential) results in perishing.. He didn't say "unless you repent you will live forever in torturous fire". ThAt, is an ancient pagan belief.. the "place of the dead" instead of the grave, first was a place or maybe state, then it became fiery.. Keep the people in line.. and some mad priest was used to institute fiery sacrifices..
Most of the time Jesus spoke in parables and in figurative language and hell is figurative in most cases whether Gehenna or Hades is mentioned. :dsunny:
God bless you,
SeventhDay
Quote from: Joanna on August 30, 2015, 02:49:51 AM
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=x2sjv386O0Q
A song by the English band Sweet I heard as a child.
Chinn/Chapman
Look out!
Mama let me out on a saturday night, she said now
Go out and get her go and hold her tight
I said now Mama, you don't understand
Ev'ry time I touch her hand
It's like I'm burning in the fires of hell
And if I hold her too long
You never can tell what'll happen to me
I wouldn't want you to see
Look out
She's a hell raiser, star chaser, trail blazer
Natural born raver, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah
She's a hell raiser, star chaser, trail blazer
Natural born raver, yeah, yeah, yeah
Look out!
She's like a live bomb shell
Like a flash out of hell
And when she's shaking her ooh
Everyone fell at her feet
And that's neat and she took me completely
By surprise with her ultra sonic eyes
That were flashing like hysterical danger signs
That said beware where you tread
Or you'll go out of your head
Look out
She's a hell raiser, star chaser, trail blazer
Natural born raver, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah
She's a hell raiser, star chaser, trail blazer
Natural born raver, yeah, yeah, yeah
Look out!
Hell raiser, hell raiser, hell raiser
Hell raiser, hell raiser, ooh
Now Mama, you don't understand
Ev'ry time I touch her hand
It's like I'm burning in the fires of hell
And if I hold her too long
You never can tell what'll happen to me
I wouldn't want you to see...
An unconverted soul is a hell raiser and the soul is a she (figuratively) and the spirit is a he (figuratively).
God bless you,
SeventhDay
Quote from: Tom on May 19, 2015, 02:55:28 AM
Yeah, that really is the saddest thing about the lie of "hell," that it dishonors our loving Father by changing him into a sadistic fiend worse than all of the notorious mass murderers of humanity.
I would not compare God to a good man or a wicked man and God created both!
You do not think man formed him self body and sou and spirit do you? Now what God made does he not determine what it is for and how it will function and how it will end up?
1Co 15:43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
1Co 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
1Co 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
1Co 15:47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
1Co 15:48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
1Co 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
1Co 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
1Co 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
1Co 15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
1Co 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
God bless you,
SeventhDay
God bless you,
SeventhDay
Quote from: Seth on October 15, 2014, 03:33:00 AM
I remember when I first believed that everyone will be saved my first thought was "so Jesus really does love everyone." :laughing7:
I believe many Christians believed that in the first four centuries after Jesus resurrection and it was taught in most of the schools. :dsunny:
God bless you,
SeventhDay
Quote from: SevanthDay on November 21, 2015, 03:39:19 PM
Quote from: Lazarus Short on October 02, 2015, 05:51:02 AM
Quote from: omegaflare on October 02, 2015, 05:19:04 AM
Jesus didn't go to hell for 3 days and 3 nights, that's isn't what Luke 23:46 taught - his spirit went back to his father after Christ died on the cross!
There ya go, Baptist myth debunked!
I think to say that Jesus went to Hell is close to blasphemy, but then Hell does not exist for Jesus, or anyone else, to go to.
Hell (Hades) is the grave physically but what is hell (Hades) spiritually?
God bless you,
SeventhDay
Hell/Hades/Sheol/the grave is nothing spiritually. It is death, non-existence, a blank, a vacuum, nothing. Happily, there is a resurrection from it, when Spirit again breathes into a re-created body, and this time all seven Spirits, not just the Spirit of Life.
Hi all,
In the Old Testament the Hebrew word "sheol" has the same meaning as the Greek word Hades. Both mean grave (the unseen or imperceptible).
So the Hebrew word sheol and the Greek word hades are synonymous in meaning.
And here is the proof from the Scriptures and the inspiration of the Holy Spirit that the Hebrew sheol and the Greek hades are identical in meaning:
Acts 2:27: "Because You will not leave My soul in hell [Gk: hades], neither will You suffer your Holy One to see corruption" is quoted from:
Psalm 16:10: "For You will not leave My soul in hell [Heb: sheol]; neither will You suffer your Holy One to see corruption."
joeteekay,
Good catch. It's great to have a direct old/new translation like this.
Thanks,
Pat
Quote from: joeteekay on November 21, 2015, 10:44:09 PM
Hi all,
In the Old Testament the Hebrew word "sheol" has the same meaning as the Greek word Hades. Both mean grave (the unseen or imperceptible).
So the Hebrew word sheol and the Greek word hades are synonymous in meaning.
And here is the proof from the Scriptures and the inspiration of the Holy Spirit that the Hebrew sheol and the Greek hades are identical in meaning:
Acts 2:27: "Because You will not leave My soul in hell [Gk: hades], neither will You suffer your Holy One to see corruption" is quoted from:
Psalm 16:10: "For You will not leave My soul in hell [Heb: sheol]; neither will You suffer your Holy One to see corruption."
:dsunny:
Has anyone come upon this teaching that there is a good side of sheol for the righteous and the punishment side of sheol for the wicked? :doh:
Yes. It was among the traditional teachings of the rabbis, the good side being "the bosom of Abraham". The book of Enoch portrays 4 chambers in Sheol. it is further taught by some Christians assuming that Jesus' parable of the rich man and Lazarus was based on His understanding of the actual cosmology of Sheol, which of course cant be proved or disproved either way, and to me is speculative and certainly non-essential either way one believes about it. I suppose the passage in Jude 1:6 "And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their proper dwelling--these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day", could be applied in the same way, along with 2 Pet 2:4
"For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell (Lit. Tartarus) and committed them to chains of gloomy darkness to be kept until the judgment; . . ." (2 Peter 2:4, ESV).
some believing tartarus, from tartaroo, the lowest chamber of hades among the Greeks, is in Sheol, as is the abyss(pit)
And Jesus asked him, "What is your name?" And he said, "Legion"; for many demons had entered him. 31They were imploring Him not to command them to go away into the abyss(abysson)
When he opened the Abyss, smoke rose from it like the smoke from a gigantic furnace. The sun and sky were darkened by the smoke from the Abyss.(rev 9:2)
the closer u get to Jesus the more u know His character..His essence is LOVE (1 John 4 :8) ..Love does not torture people forever unceasingly in a fiery lake..'eternall hell' maligns God and upsets me a lot cos i know people take it seriously..oh, let people please please seek God and know His love and know His character..God unconditionally loves us more than we could ever know and it breaks His heart when people think He could do such evil as torture His human beings that He created, forever and ever for no purpose at all other than unleash some kind of vindictive fury on them..eternal torture in hellfire is a horrible satanic lie..God Himself says in Jeremiah 35 :32 that burning people in fire is an abomination to Him...
Ab-so-lute-Ly Darryl! You said it!
I'm reminded of how Paul wrote about the Bereans "these were more noble in that they searched the scriptures, daily, to see if these things were so" - (Instead of dismissing the claims of Jesus was the Messiah out of hand as the previous town had done.. those of the Thessalonian synagogue.)
:Peace2: :smile:
Quote from: EddieFlores on December 24, 2015, 07:42:42 PM
Has anyone come upon this teaching that there is a good side of sheol for the righteous and the punishment side of sheol for the wicked? :doh:
Quote from: eaglesway on December 25, 2015, 12:45:51 PM
Yes. It was among the traditional teachings of the rabbis, the good side being "the bosom of Abraham". The book of Enoch portrays 4 chambers in Sheol. it is further taught by some Christians assuming that Jesus' parable of the rich man and Lazarus was based on His understanding of the actual cosmology of Sheol, which of course cant be proved or disproved either way, and to me is speculative and certainly non-essential either way one believes about it. I suppose the passage in Jude 1:6 "And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their proper dwelling--these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day", could be applied in the same way, along with 2 Pet 2:4
"For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell (Lit. Tartarus) and committed them to chains of gloomy darkness to be kept until the judgment; . . ." (2 Peter 2:4, ESV).
some believing tartarus, from tartaroo, the lowest chamber of hades among the Greeks, is in Sheol, as is the abyss(pit)
And Jesus asked him, "What is your name?" And he said, "Legion"; for many demons had entered him. 31They were imploring Him not to command them to go away into the abyss(abysson)
When he opened the Abyss, smoke rose from it like the smoke from a gigantic furnace. The sun and sky were darkened by the smoke from the Abyss.(rev 9:2)
The "dark side of sheol" as the grave.. as sin/imperfection being its cause, thus is too "the grave" and death.. chamber of sheol most likely, imo, mythical as we know "in sheol is neither thinking nor doing" Eccles.
(I didn't know that was the source of "bosom of Abraham"..
it's good to know.. I think the Lord was poking fun of their mythical, non 'biblical' teachings.. :2c: Or as a reference to outer darkness experienced by some during judgment 'day)
Anoter thought about "the abyss" which the demons of Gadara (the swine) the demons were referencing.. after 'apocalypse' when Satan is thrown into it.. I find myself thinking partly what the abyss surely must be, is the potential of waywardness/sin as a bottomless pit.. In revelation 9, I think of as metaphor for this bottomless potential coming out of the smoke of earth affairs in that day (Joel's smoky day) - and then satan&co are cast into for a thousand years in order to stew in their own darkness for a duration..
"chains of gloom, deepest darkness causing" (Tartarus causing, the Greek) "reserved for judgment".. locked into judgment.. can't reverse their course and become perfect, being imperfect.. and grossly so.. :2c: :2c: :smile:
Quote from: marie glen on January 29, 2016, 04:06:16 AM
Ab-so-lute-Ly Darryl! You said it!
I'm reminded of how Paul wrote about the Bereans "these were more noble in that they searched the scriptures, daily, to see if these things were so" - (Instead of dismissing the claims of Jesus was the Messiah out of hand as the previous town had done.. those of the Thessalonian synagogue.)
:Peace2: :smile:
exactly, Marie ! ..well said ! :gimmefive: :dsunny: :banana: :friendstu:
Quote from: sven on December 01, 2008, 03:50:34 PM
QuoteWhat the point IS tho and what IS important is the fact that there is NO ETERNAL hellfire or punishments
thats true, how can a normal human beeing accept the idea of everlasting hell? or say this is just or hope that someone would go there? it will never go in my mind, every person should be glad when telling them, what these words meant, but so many people, they want hell to be real, why?
I do not know why, Sven..I really don't especially with all the info out there on the web nowadays (like here on Tentmaker) showing 'eternal torment in hell' is not true. :dontknow: :dontknow:
Paul talked about "towers and strongholds" that exalt themselves against the "true knowledge of God".
He spoke also of patiently instructing those who "oppose themselves" and praying for them that they might "escape the snare of the devil in which they have been taken captive".
Also, he says, "And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 4 in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God."
It is spiritual bondage to the fear of hell itself that holds multitudes in captivity, blinded to the glory of the true gospel. God is in control. All we can do is intercede for the churches to get set free by His presence in their midst and for this gospel to go forth in the power of the Spirit of God- and pray individually for any we may have on our hearts.
"Our weapons are not natural/carnal, but mighty through God for the pulling down of every stronghold and fortress that exalts itself against the full knowledge of God."
The servant of the Lord must not strive.....
Reprove, rebuke and exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine... rightly dividing the word of truth.
LOVING everything shared , GOD IS EXCELLENT !!
It is just amazing how clear the WORD OF GOD / JESUS CHRIST is seen
When we see with eyes of the flesh is is still dark and muddy and cannot see but darkly though that glass
the flesh gets in the way of our view of seeing the WORD OF GOD AS PERFECT
But the WORD OF GOD washes away the filth of the flesh eroding it
and His fire /judgments make ashes scattered in the 4 winds blowing
We begin to hear the Spirit blowing that breath of Life back into our very dry bones , than do we begin to understand the meaning becoming bone of his bones and flesh of His flesh
Eph 5 29for no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ also does the church,
30 because we are members of His body.
31FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER AND SHALL BE JOINED TO HIS WIFE,
AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH....
1 Corinthians 6:15
Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ himself? Shall I then take the members of Christ and unite them with a prostitute? Never!
1 Corinthians 12:27
Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it.
Ephesians 1:23
which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.
Ephesians 5:29
After all, no one ever hated their own body, but they feed and care for their body, just as Christ does the church--
Than we can also see the WORD OF GOD made flesh being apart of His body and life giving Spirit breathing and working in us all
GOD said HE WOULD , and so believe HIM :HeartThrob:
Quote from: eaglesway on January 29, 2016, 06:39:32 AM
Paul talked about "towers and strongholds" that exalt themselves against the "true knowledge of God".
He spoke also of patiently instructing those who "oppose themselves" and praying for them that they might "escape the snare of the devil in which they have been taken captive".
Also, he says, "And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 4 in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God."
It is spiritual bondage to the fear of hell itself that holds multitudes in captivity, blinded to the glory of the true gospel. God is in control. All we can do is intercede for the churches to get set free by His presence in their midst and for this gospel to go forth in the power of the Spirit of God- and pray individually for any we may have on our hearts.
"Our weapons are not natural/carnal, but mighty through God for the pulling down of every stronghold and fortress that exalts itself against the full knowledge of God."
The servant of the Lord must not strive.....
Reprove, rebuke and exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine... rightly dividing the word of truth.
good points ! :iagree:
Quote from: rosered on January 29, 2016, 01:33:13 PM
LOVING everything shared , GOD IS EXCELLENT !!
It is just amazing how clear the WORD OF GOD / JESUS CHRIST is seen
When we see with eyes of the flesh is is still dark and muddy and cannot see but darkly though that glass
the flesh gets in the way of our view of seeing the WORD OF GOD AS PERFECT
But the WORD OF GOD washes away the filth of the flesh eroding it
and His fire /judgments make ashes scattered in the 4 winds blowing
We begin to hear the Spirit blowing that breath of Life back into our very dry bones , than do we begin to understand the meaning becoming bone of his bones and flesh of His flesh
Eph 5 29for no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ also does the church,
30 because we are members of His body.
31FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER AND SHALL BE JOINED TO HIS WIFE,
AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH....
1 Corinthians 6:15
Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ himself? Shall I then take the members of Christ and unite them with a prostitute? Never!
1 Corinthians 12:27
Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it.
Ephesians 1:23
which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.
Ephesians 5:29
After all, no one ever hated their own body, but they feed and care for their body, just as Christ does the church--
Than we can also see the WORD OF GOD made flesh being apart of His body and life giving Spirit breathing and working in us all
GOD said HE WOULD , and so believe HIM :HeartThrob:
yup..agreed ! :iagree:
Quote from: eaglesway on December 25, 2015, 12:45:51 PM
When he opened the Abyss, smoke rose from it like the smoke from a gigantic furnace. The sun and sky were darkened by the smoke from the Abyss.(rev 9:2)
When their eyes were opened, they saw that they were naked
and out of the smoke locusts come forth...no power to 'kill' men but to torment for 5 months only......those men without the seal
of God.................our own conscience can torment us..we can also be tormented with lies saying God hates us..we are cursed
and cast off and seperated from the love of God and have no hope in Him..if we believe such things the serpent whispers into our ears...
I was given this dream vision..where High up in the heavens I saw fighter jets over head in formation[war in heaven] and then
I felt a 'crawly' sensation over my skin...and it was the locusts everywhere..crawling and flying in the air..but they did not sting me...
and I just wiped them off and went on my way. If you believe these lies of the abyssed and loosed ones..demonic doctrines
that slander the true nature and heart of our Father and His loving goodwill and intent unto man..it can result in a 'torment' where
men go mad and pray for death/rather then the constant droneing of the accusors wings. this was given in 2001..and shortly preceded
His revelation of the salvation of all men..unto me. so there you see...hell's torment is limited unto 5 months.....
.....It is God..who through His son.who .has covered the nakedness of man with Grace and love..and has sealed them to bear the very
image of the son and Father.Their salvation is sealed and to be testified unto in due time.
Quote from: sheila on February 04, 2016, 05:12:22 PM
.....It is God..who through His son.who .has covered the nakedness of man with Grace and love..and has sealed them to bear the very
image of the son and Father.Their salvation is sealed and to be testified unto in due time.
:thumbsup: Amen sister, and we along with the host of heaven shall rejoice when their eyes are opened to righteousness
:cloud9: Never really paid attention to the "5 months" part before but it occurs to me that it relates to the amount of cleansing needed for man to stop perceiving through his 5 soulish senses. A month relates to the moon, that relates to a woman/soul, a menstrous woman does not produce a son and is unclean. Just thinking out loud this morning.....a good morning to all :dsunny:
I love this , we are all bound up under the law of sin and death [ Romans 6,7 ,8 ] till the LORD comes and frees us , the Woman in Rev 12 with the 12 stars and crown on her head / Victory song , and the moon under her feet ,, overcome death though the LIFE OF THE SON manchild ,
that has the testimony of Jesus Christ , this being the Word of LIFE growing in truth and grace by The Spirit of truth in power over death
Jesus being the firstborn of His brethren , the sons of God by the woman born under law a Mary miriam ''bitter waters '' '' their rebellion because of Israels plunder God has made a way for the gentiles/nations to come in also , and that is ..... all must come though that same way wow!!
Ezekiel 16;4-13
Quote from: Cardinal on February 04, 2016, 05:47:37 PM
:cloud9: Never really paid attention to the "5 months" part before but it occurs to me that it relates to the amount of cleansing needed for man to stop perceiving through his 5 soulish senses. A month relates to the moon, that relates to a woman/soul, a menstrous woman does not produce a son and is unclean. Just thinking out loud this morning.....a good morning to all :dsunny:
Just doing some catching up a saw this thread:
For me, it is also seeing that the moon relates to law, the lesser light rules the darkness ..... the law has to rule in those of darkness ..... for the law is made for the unrighteous
The moon reflects light but does not in itself produce light, just as the law is to be a tutor, it is to think differently (repent) and look for the light source.
When we look at the moon up in the night sky, we know for a fact that the only reason we can see it is because there is a light source shining upon it.
This is what I believe Paul was speaking about when he says ..... the law is righteous ..... but it is not source of life (Light)
my :2c:
Quote from: sheila on February 04, 2016, 06:10:27 PM
Ezekiel 16;4-13
Yes the shedding of own blood striving against sin Under the law all die striving against sin !! the blood and issue , till the birthing of the SON OF RIGHTEOUESNESS ,, Mal 4 The Great Day of the Lord
1"For behold, the day is coming, burning like a furnace; and all the arrogant and every evildoer will be chaff; and the day that is coming will set them ablaze," says the LORD of hosts, "so that it will leave them neither root nor branch." 2"But for you who fear
My name, the sun of righteousness will rise with healing in its wings; and you will go forth and skip about like calves from the stall. 3"You will tread down the wicked, for they will be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day which I am preparing," says the LORD of hosts....https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ezekiel+16%3A4-13&version=NASB (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ezekiel+16%3A4-13&version=NASB)
I see the prophecy of Rev 11 being fulfilled in this the HOLY CITY IS SEALED as those striving to enter kill and are being killed until they LEARN RIGHTEOUS And able to enter the gates of the CITY BY The Son /SUN of righteousness granting them GRACE AMAZING GRACE ...
11 Then there was given me a measuring rod like a staff; and someone said, "
Get up and measure the temple of God and the altar, and those who worship in it.
2 Leave out the court which is outside the temple and do not measure it, for it has been given to the nations; and they will tread under foot the holy city for forty-two months.
3 And I will grant authority to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for twelve hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth."
4 These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth.
5
And if anyone wants to harm them, fire flows out of their mouth and devours their enemies; so if anyone wants to harm them, he must be killed in this way.
6 These have the power to shut up the sky, so that rain will not fall
during the days of their prophesying; and they have power over the waters to turn them into blood, and to strike the earth with every plague, as often as they desire.
Under the law and prophets was the moon and stars of the dark night not giving her light [new moon] barren ] as the reflection of the SUN being ashamed to call them brethren , because it was though VIOLENCE !! not the way of peace as GOD WOULD HAVE THEM COME THOUGH the gates of the city
the sun , son was ashamed and would not give give them rest till another day [HEB4 ] , the DAY OF THE LORD JESUS CHRIST Isaiah 24 God's Judgment on the Earth
...22They will be gathered together Like prisoners in the dungeon, And will be confined in prison;
And after many days they will be punished.
23
Then the moon will be abashed and the sun ashamed, For the LORD of hosts will reign on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem, And His glory will be before His elders. NOT ASHAMED TO CALL THEM brethren equals the same [ we will be like Him ]]]] wow!!! Hebews 2 Jesus Made Like His Brothers
...10For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things, and through whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to perfect the author of their salvation through sufferings.
11
For both He who sanctifies and those who are sanctified are all from one Father; for which reason He is not ashamed to call them brethren, 12saying, "I WILL PROCLAIM YOUR NAME TO MY BRETHREN, IN THE MIDST OF THE CONGREGATION I WILL SING YOUR PRAISE."... All these scriptures by themselves made no sense to me before , just bits here and there and I seeing them coming together in perfect harmony !!
speaking the LIVING WORD IN POWER ,,,,, bowing the knee and lowering the head to be removed ..
Quote from: jugghead on February 04, 2016, 06:13:55 PM
Quote from: Cardinal on February 04, 2016, 05:47:37 PM
:cloud9: Never really paid attention to the "5 months" part before but it occurs to me that it relates to the amount of cleansing needed for man to stop perceiving through his 5 soulish senses. A month relates to the moon, that relates to a woman/soul, a menstrous woman does not produce a son and is unclean. Just thinking out loud this morning.....a good morning to all :dsunny:
Just doing some catching up a saw this thread:
For me, it is also seeing that the moon relates to law, the lesser light rules the darkness ..... the law has to rule in those of darkness ..... for the law is made for the unrighteous
The moon reflects light but does not in itself produce light, just as the law is to be a tutor, it is to think differently (repent) and look for the light source.
When we look at the moon up in the night sky, we know for a fact that the only reason we can see it is because there is a light source shining upon it.
This is what I believe Paul was speaking about when he says ..... the law is righteous ..... but it is not source of life (Light)
my :2c:
:cloud9: Amen :thumbsup:
Isaaih 42;21 but God's mercy and love is ever greater then His righteousness. Sometimes..we like our children to know that
what we spoke to them was right. we say..'look both ways before you cross the street" or you will die if a car runs over you....
if they get killed by a car..do we say'well and good,my being right is the most important thing?" No..we give them mouth to mouth
and manually pump their heart..and say..'LIVE!" Not only that 'we would gladly die in their place/exchange our life for theirs........
mercy triumphs over judgement..over who was right and who was wrong..LOVE RULES!!!!!
Just been reading through the forum,,missed you guys. Needed to feel uplifted and my heart has been warmed. Love you :dsunny:
:HeartThrob: you back.... :dsunny:
Quote from: sven on December 01, 2008, 03:50:34 PM
QuoteWhat the point IS tho and what IS important is the fact that there is NO ETERNAL hellfire or punishments
thats true, how can a normal human beeing accept the idea of everlasting hell? or say this is just or hope that someone would go there? it will never go in my mind, every person should be glad when telling them, what these words meant, but so many people, they want hell to be real, why?
they have believed something so utterly abhorrent, absurd and downright monstrous for so long they have brainwashed themselves...some Calvinists even say they will rejoice to see their own mother tormented in the lake of fire !..if you don't believe me watch this message Calvinist theologian RC Sproul preached where he says this very thing !.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D00_sM-rTCQ
These people arent even being honest. To be happy in heaven while ones loved ones are being tortured forever without end is an insane idea.
Quote from: darryl on March 23, 2016, 10:08:49 AM
they have believed something so utterly abhorrent, absurd and downright monstrous for so long they have brainwashed themselves...some Calvinists even say they will rejoice to see their own mother tormented in the lake of fire !..if you don't believe me watch this message Calvinist theologian RC Sproul preached where he says this very thing !.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D00_sM-rTCQ
These people arent even being honest. To be happy in heaven while ones loved ones are being tortured forever without end is an insane idea.
It
is insane isn't it? I think the idea of hell came forth from a psychotic mind..!
"Calvinist theologian RC Sproul preached where he says this very thing" :faint: imagine!! it twists logic into a totally twisty thing! :Chinscratch: maybe that's why Yahweh gave the serpent, after the fiasco in Eden, the shape He did... twisty! so much twisty, slithering, 'logic' - or rather lack of, that is!
Geesh!
Quote
will rejoice to see their own mother tormented in the lake of fire !
HoW, is this love? "God
is love"
Quote from: marie glen on March 23, 2016, 04:19:52 PM
Quote from: darryl on March 23, 2016, 10:08:49 AM
they have believed something so utterly abhorrent, absurd and downright monstrous for so long they have brainwashed themselves...some Calvinists even say they will rejoice to see their own mother tormented in the lake of fire !..if you don't believe me watch this message Calvinist theologian RC Sproul preached where he says this very thing !.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D00_sM-rTCQ
These people arent even being honest. To be happy in heaven while ones loved ones are being tortured forever without end is an insane idea.
It is insane isn't it? I think the idea of hell came forth from a psychotic mind..!
"Calvinist theologian RC Sproul preached where he says this very thing" :faint: imagine!! it twists logic into a totally twisty thing! :Chinscratch: maybe that's why Yahweh gave the serpent, after the fiasco in Eden, the shape He did... twisty! so much twisty, slithering, 'logic' - or rather lack of, that is!
Geesh!
Quote
will rejoice to see their own mother tormented in the lake of fire !
HoW, is this love? "God is love"
dunno...if God did actually throw people's relatives and loved one's into a ghastly fiery lake to be tortured we can bet heaven would be full of people badgering God to stop that torture..the only way out would be for God to perform a lobotomy on people so they forgot their sons, mothers, husbands, daughters, wives and loved ones being burnt alive..
God would also have to take away the memory of those tormented people from the people in heaven who didn't personally know these tormented people but who merely knew of them..
the entire idea is ridiculous. :laugh:
I have heard the lobotomy idea proposed in a way- that God will block the awareness of the multitudes in torment in the minds f the saved. Whew! Like scary huh? One Flew Over The Cuckoos Nest. The Stepford Bride. Yikes!
Well, folks, I've finished my survey of the KJV, and could not find Hell. *poof* :declare:
Well, hey, the Lake of Fire is bad enough... :eek:
:thumbsup: :thumbsup:
Our Lord Jesus Christ is the Creator and Sustainer of ALL things and ALL people. He either does or allows everything that is done in heaven or on earth. If one hundred billion helpless human beings are being tortured, then Jesus is doing it.
Satan has brought suffering and death to the whole human race. However, if eternal torment IS TRUE, then Jesus Christ will torture forever the whole human race, except the small handful who will be saved. In one hour, in a hot searing hell, our Lord will inflict more pain and agony on each person than Satan inflicted on that person during his entire life.
If this torture lasts throughout eternity, then each unsaved person will suffer more than all the suffering of all the people that ever lived on earth. Think of it! Billions have suffered horrible pain for hours, days, weeks, months, and years, during the time they were alive. And yet, after they die, EVERY unsaved person will suffer more agony than all the suffering of the whole race PUT TOGETHER from Adam until now. This is so horrible, so frightful, that it is difficult for our minds to grasp. Except Satan himself, Pharaoh, Nero, and Hitler were among the most horrible killers of men this world has ever known.
Yet, the doctrine of eternal torture makes Jesus a million times more vicious and vindictive than these three put together. You see, these brutal murderers killed their victims. Death brought sweet relief in a moment of time. However, that Man of Galilee, that Man whom we love, praise, and worship, that Man who taught that we should forgive four hundred and ninety times a day, that Man who told us that we should love our enemies and bless them that curse us, that Man who died for all men, will never, never forgive ANYONE who has rejected Him in this frail life, or, worse yet, who merely failed to believe on Him during this brief time. Instead of torturing them for a season and then ending their suffering with death, He will torture them through all eternity.
Even the hardest, cruelest, most brutal men cannot torture their fellow men for more than two or three hours without growing weak, faint, and sick (see Fox Book of Martyrs). However, Christian leaders teach that our Lord will torture His victims through endless ages. The Scripture reveals that Christ Jesus is the kindest, the most tender-hearted and merciful Person this world has ever known. His mercy endures forever, or to all generations of time. Yet, the doctrine of eternal torment pictures Him to be the most horrible monster, the most beastly, brutal, cruel, vicious Person this world has ever known.
The governments of this world, ruled by unregenerated men, put their rebels in prisons, and the very worst offenders they put to death. But our Lord Jesus Christ, the Creator and Redeemer of the world, will mercilessly torture those who offend Him to the most hideous and incomprehensible degree. Surely, this pagan and Romish doctrine of eternal torture does NOT glorify HIM!
One of the theologians of the Church of England (Jeremy Taylor) speaks of the fate of the wicked in the following terms: "In hell every sense and organ shall be assailed forever with its own appropriate and most exquisite sufferings. We are amazed at the inhumanity of Phalaris who roasted men in his brazen bull, but THAT WAS A JOY IN COMPARISON WITH HELL."
And here is what the renowned evangelist,(C. H. Spurgeon,) said on the same subject: "There is real fire in hell. The body shall be suffused with agony; your head tormented with racking pains; your eyes starting from their sockets; your ears tortured with horrid sounds; your pulse rattling with anguish; your limbs crackling in the flame; every vein a pathway for the fire to tread; every nerve a string on which the devil shall forever play the diabolical tune of hell's unutterable lament."
If it were true, it is so awful that it should never be spoken without tears and a broken heart. How does the mother of a murderer speak of the corning execution of her boy? Yet the prospect to her is only one of time, and in the limits of the physical. If the people believe it, then their attitude about the whole thing reveals that they could care less if the creation burns forever.
The fact is, NO ONE really believes in an eternal burning hell if we are to judge by their actions. If they saw a person in a burning building, they would put forth every effort to save them; they would cry and scream for help; they would be late for work; they would not rest until the victims were rescued.
Yet, those who teach eternal torment can spend their hours relaxing in front of the television screen, visiting and feasting upon rich dainties with their friends, and whole days in camping, vacationing, fishing, and playing, and then lay their heads upon a pillow every night and sleep soundly, while, according to their own teaching, countless millions are going to a place a million times worse than a burning building!
If they believed what they teach, they would never cease, day and night until they dropped, and others came to take their places, in their efforts to save men from such a place! They excuse themselves by saying, "All we can do is warn."
But if they were standing before a burning building would they preach a thirty-minute sermon, then turn and walk away, saying, "All we can do is warn!" And how many do they meet day after day, and never mention their danger?
Ah, precious friend of mine, if my concept of hell were what modern Christendom's is, then it is my conviction that I would not be able to wait for God to send me to preach the Gospel! I would have to spend my every wakened hour pleading, working, struggling, fighting to save men from such a fate. I would be compelled to spend hours upon hours in the chronic wards of hospitals, in rest homes, with the elderly and those working on dangerous jobs, begging men to repent and turn to Jesus before they die.
And I am convinced that anyone with the love of God in his heart would do the same IF HE REALLY BELIEVED the fables that are being taught today about hell. I will say this, either those who teach eternal torture are EXTREMELY CALLOUSED or they do not believe what they teach!
George Hawtin has so aptly written: "Is it any wonder that in the face of such sadistic humbug there has been a wholesale manufacture of infidels? All these statements (by eternal hell-fire preachers) may be a show of oratorical eloquence, but they are nothing more. They hold no part of truth. They deny every attribute of God. They make wisdom foolishness, turn eternal love into exasperated hate, make omnipotence helplessness, and make the justice of God the grossest injustice in the universe.
To say that I believe in such repugnance would be a lie of the first order. I do not believe it because it is contrary to the nature of God. It is contrary to the love of God. It is contrary to the justice of God. It is contrary to the power of God. It is contrary to the Word of God and it puts God in the ridiculous position of being the almighty King of kings and Lord of lords yet having dominion a vast pocket of hate and resistance that even He cannot overcome.
Further than this it makes the mighty sacrifice of Christ that was made for all the world to be almost impotent in its power and scope. Worst of all, it frustrates the purpose of God laid down in the beginning when He said, 'Let us make man in our image and after our likeness.' Some will immediately ask me whether I do not believe in hell.
My answer is very definite on this point. I most certainly DO BELIEVE in hell, but the hell of the Bible and the hell of human tradition are not the same thing at all. The hell of tradition is hopeless and eternal, while the hell of the Scripture like every judgment of God is corrective, remedial, and restorative." -end quote.
I do not like to differ, even in minor things, from those whom I esteem for their devotion to Christ and their valuable service in the cause of His Kingdom. But in the immortal words of the great Martin Luther, "Here I stand - I can do no other. So help me God!" Long centuries ago the faithful apostle Peter penned these inspired words, "Who by the power of God are kept through faith unto a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time" (I Pet. 1:5).
My conviction before God is that the extent of the salvation of Jesus, the Christ, our Lord, is to be known only in the last time. Jesus Himself said to His disciples, "I have yet many things to say unto you, but you cannot bear them now." But He said when the Holy Spirit should come, He would lead his people step by step - patiently lead them into the way of All Truth; so that when the last time (end of the age) came, the full revelation of that salvation would be made.
I believe that I am writing in the last time. Writings of this kind do not endear the hearts of many people. I fear that enemies are made instead. Every time a truth is spoken, many become offended and many are filled with wrath. People always astonish me. It is never possible to know what attitude they will take under any given circumstance. They will believe and trust you and feed from your table, and for many years, only to become suddenly offended because of some point upon which they disagree, and often become hostile and sometimes even vicious, calling you a heretic and a false prophet, cutting you off from an fellowship and spiritual communication, and warning other saints near and far not to have anything to do with you.
I am also perfectly aware that these profound truths will be misapplied by another class, and some will twist and wrest them to their own destruction in their carnal and wicked endeavor to set aside all repentance of sin and annul all holiness of life, as some men in their zeal to display the grace of God have done, ridiculously living in sin and turning the grace of God into lasciviousness (Jude 4). These beautiful truths are not now written to men of corrupt minds who have no desire to walk in the Spirit, but to all who walk in the whole counsel of God, serving God because they love and know Him and not in fear of some dreadful judgment that hangs like a horrible terror before their eyes.
I do not address those who would pervert the right ways of the Lord, using God's gracious plan and His great mercy as an excuse for careless living or unconcern for lost men, but to those children of the Most High God who, seeing their infinite identity in Christ, are consumed with the holy passion of becoming the very instrument of God to fight the good fight of faith, destroying sin and death and hell, and bringing all men back into the loving embrace of their God and Redeemer. So be it!
I recognize that there will be some still unanswered questions in some minds, but there is neither time to write nor finances to print a treatise dealing with every small point. How can we put the ocean of eternal truth into the limited pages of one small book? If God will have all men to be saved, and the Scripture is very clear on this point, then there must be a way by which this truth falls into perfect harmony with every other Scripture which seems to teach otherwise.
We do ourselves much injury when we seize upon every Scripture which proclaims the salvation of all men, but carefully avoid all Scripture which speaks of the fearful judgment of the wicked. Yet even greater harm is done when people insist upon taking the other point of view, as almost the entire Church system has done for centuries, emphasizing only those Scriptures which seem to teach the unending doom of those unfortunate creatures who never once heard that God had a Son and skillfully avoiding every direct statement of Scripture which indicates that God has reconciled all things to Himself, and that every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess to God of things in heaven and things in earth and under the earth.
There is always a place of harmony if we look for it, and it is not usually difficult to find. Otherwise we will be forced onto that untenable ground of having to say that the Bible contradicts itself - which, of course, it never does. Whenever you find two Scriptures that seem to set forth conflicting views, there is always a simple explanation, and, if we will diligently inquire of the Lord, He will give us a definite answer.
Human understanding is almost always prone to seize upon one side of a statement and will cling to that with the grip of death, refusing to even investigate or seek the wisdom of God to harmonize the truth. Worldly wise men are forever saying that the Bible contradicts itself.
I have never believed that by teaching the ultimate salvation of all men we were pitting one group of Scriptures against another, for it is my conviction that the solution can only be found in the correct HARMONIZATION of all the Scriptures, not ignoring one group while advancing the other.
I believe I speak by the Spirit of God when I assert that the only sensible harmonization of all the Scriptures lies in the fact that Jesus is indeed THE SAVIOUR OF ALL MEN, that He is in very fact THE SAVIOUR OF THE WORLD, and that HE WILL HAVE ALL MEN TO BE SAVED and come to the knowledge of the truth, DRAWING ALL MEN UNTO HIMSELF. To me this is a most glorious and wonderful fact! I find all the judgments of God to be correctional and disciplinary rather than vindictive and final. Therein lies the harmonization of which I speak.
This leaves us free to believe ALL of God's Word. It magnifies the cross. It glorifies God. It honors the atonement. It gives meaning to the ministry of the Sons of God. It gives purpose to the ages yet to come, all planned and arranged beforehand by our wonderful Creator. Sin, judgment, and death are temporary, all to be dealt with by the mighty power of God invested in His saints. The entire universe will be reconciled to God through the blood of Christ's cross. God will become All-in-All. Here is a God worthy of your worship and adoration!
Several brethren have written or discussed this subject with me through the years, adamant against the truth I see. But their arguments are shallow and twisted and their spirits generally harsh against men whom God loves and for whom the Christ died, as though they wanted to make CERTAIN that everybody gets every thing they "deserve."
Their theology is lopsided, distorted, out of balance, and it will be smashed in the end! Those who walk in that attitude know but little of the love of Him who is at the same time the JUDGE OF ALL and the SAVIOUR OF ALL. He is not the Judge of some and the Saviour of some, but both Judge and Saviour of ALL! If "Judge of ALL" means that He judges all, then "Saviour of ALL" must mean that He saves all, for the Scriptures plainly make both statements. Within that one fact again can be seen the HARMONIZATION of the justice and the love of God - His judgment leading to repentance and a knowledge of His mercy. Praise His wonderful name!
Yes My Brotha, YES!
I don't know how to do it James, but I think Darryl's post should be stickied up near the top somewhere.
:iagree:
Amen, amen.. I agree! :thumbsup: -- A :teaching: very, very :goodpost:
I especially like what was said about the Word.. (In essence being real good Bereans no matter what doctrine or how long or strongly heldl! Examining aLL pertaining verses) and if "Judge of all" means all, then "savior of all" means all.
But! Too many great points to say "especially liked" about!
Quote from: marie glen on March 21, 2017, 07:52:10 PM
Amen, amen.. I agree! :thumbsup: -- A :teaching: very, very :goodpost:
I especially like what was said about the Word.. (In essence being real good Bereans no matter what doctrine or how long or strongly heldl! Examining aLL pertaining verses) and if "Judge of all" means all, then "savior of all" means all.
But! Too many great points to say "especially liked" about!
:thumbsup:
Quote from: darryl on March 21, 2017, 07:37:10 AM
I find all the judgments of God to be correctional and disciplinary rather than vindictive and final. Therein lies the harmonization of which I speak.
:thumbsup: Judgment does not imply guilty until proven innocent, which is pretty much what many churches are teaching.
Judgment is indeed correction, pointing out the errors of our ways.
Amen that our saviour points this out quite clearly to each of us.
Rom 14;10 " Why do you pass judgment on your brother? Or again, why do you hold your brother in contempt?
For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God."
Rom 14;12,13 " So then each one of us will give an account of himself to God. Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another
but resolve this instead, NEVER to place an obstacle or trap in a brother's way."
1 Cor 4;5 " So then, stop passing judgement on anything before the time, before the Lord comes.
He will bring to light the hidden things of darkness and will disclose the motives of the heart.
At THAT time, praise will come to each from God."
2 Tim 4;1,2 " I Solemnly charge you in the presence of God and Christ Jesus, Who is about to judge the living and the dead,
by His appearing and by His kingdom; preach the word.
Be prepared when it is opportune, or inopportune; confront, rebuke, exhort, WITH COMPLETE PATIENCE AND TEACHING."
Gal 6;15 "For neither circumcision or uncircumcision is anything, but a new creation."
So indeed, why does the church effectively implement their own judgment on their own community, attempting to win some for Christ.
We do not threaten our own children to love us or else, so I cannot fathom our real Father doing that very thing.
Instead His patience and love go beyond our ability to fully understand until He reveals this to us from His perspective instead of man's.
Cut out the miss-understanding of the "ages" and this makes even more sense of the development phases for all mankind.
After all; NOTHING can keep us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord- a literal statement- not request.
its not a get out of jail free card though...I still believe unbelievers probably/ possibly go to 'hell' OF SOME TYPE but it's not eternal....the belief in a non eternal hell was prevalent in the early church for the 1st 500 years of Christianity... if u study it u will see...the belief in eternal torment in hell only came later thru the Roman Catholic church and it came from paganism...God is truly good and He does not torture his creation, human beings, forever without mercy or pity....still, wicked people will suffer some kind of 'eternal loss' ...though their spirit is saved, their soul, all or part of it, may be destroyed in the Lake of Fire...far better to accept Christ now in this life
Great selection of verses Ross.
Quote from: darryl on September 12, 2017, 05:07:11 AM
....still, wicked people will suffer some kind of 'eternal loss' ...
Not to hijack this thread but this jumped out at me and I wondered ...... what is the "eternal loss" that they will suffer?
Is it that they will come to realize their physical life was a loss in that they did not know Christ because of their wickedness?
but wouldn't that justify the question "why did you allow me to be wicked?" or "why did you not allow me to know Christ?" (the pot asking the potter)
IMO the "eternal loss" they will suffer is that they did not know "the end" for mankind ...... that being "that ALL will be saved"
because in the end (the grand picture of it) will it actually make a difference that some came to understand it before others when they understand that they too were chosen to be saved before the foundation of the world?
just some thoughts
I don't believe any loss will be eternal. Eonian, maybe. But at some point God will be all in all. If in the end all will be in Christ, then in the end "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for you are all one in Christ Jesus." and if we are all one with Christ there is no one who is less than.
Just my opinion.
I agree. No "essential" loss that is eternal anyway. Paul spoke of some saints refusing deliverance in order to "obtain a better resurrection". When God is all and all, and all rule power and authority are done away, whatever any will be, will blessed in the "joy unspeakable and full of glory" of perfect love.
Quote from: GodIsLove on September 14, 2017, 03:32:28 AM
I don't believe any loss will be eternal. Eonian, maybe. But at some point God will be all in all. If in the end all will be in Christ, then in the end "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for you are all one in Christ Jesus." and if we are all one with Christ there is no one who is less than.
Just my opinion.
I never thought of that in quite that way! :thumbsup: :thumbsup: Amen! (And Glory! ...He's
so wise..!)
Quote from: marie glen on September 15, 2017, 12:49:39 AM
Quote from: GodIsLove on September 14, 2017, 03:32:28 AM
I don't believe any loss will be eternal. Eonian, maybe. But at some point God will be all in all. If in the end all will be in Christ, then in the end "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for you are all one in Christ Jesus." and if we are all one with Christ there is no one who is less than.
Just my opinion.
I never thought of that in quite that way! :thumbsup: :thumbsup: Amen! (And Glory! ...He's so wise..!)
Yes and it is a great way to think indeed !!!
Some good stuff on this thread , What a blessing !!!
Quote from: GodIsLove on September 14, 2017, 03:32:28 AM
I don't believe any loss will be eternal. Eonian, maybe. But at some point God will be all in all. If in the end all will be in Christ, then in the end "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for you are all one in Christ Jesus." and if we are all one with Christ there is no one who is less than.
Just my opinion.
hmmm,this is difficult to put into words because it's dealing with abstract concepts, but I'll try...a question : will a Pol Pot (as a stereotypical evil person) be in heaven without being stripped of his evil ?...without suffering eternal loss of the depraved elements of his soul' ?...hmmm, didnt Jesus say better to lose the entire world than lose ones soul ?. ..surely the loss of the wicked and depraved parts of his soul will take place..that's the eternal loss I'm speaking of...the eternal loss of that which is no good in the first place ...btw, the Bible NEVER talks about the loss of the Spirit..only the 'Soul'.I know God will be 'all in all'..but the 'All' that is in Him must be holy and pure. not wicked..and God will dash and remake the wicked ones, like Hitler or Pol Pot..like a potter remodels clay...so that only the pure burnished 'good' remains.I believe this concept of the 'loss of the soul' that Jesus spoke of best fits the UR eschatological narrative.Of course I'm not God and I could be wrong but it seems both Biblical and logical to me that God will not allow 'evil' in heaven.
Quote from: darryl on September 15, 2017, 02:12:46 AM
Quote from: GodIsLove on September 14, 2017, 03:32:28 AM
I don't believe any loss will be eternal. Eonian, maybe. But at some point God will be all in all. If in the end all will be in Christ, then in the end "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for you are all one in Christ Jesus." and if we are all one with Christ there is no one who is less than.
Just my opinion.
hmmm,this is difficult to put into words because it's dealing with abstract concepts, but I'll try...a question : will a Pol Pot (as a stereotypical evil person) be in heaven without being stripped of his evil ?...without suffering eternal loss of the depraved elements of his soul' ?...hmmm, didnt Jesus say better to lose the entire world than lose ones soul ?. ..surely the loss of the wicked and depraved parts of his soul will take place..that's the eternal loss I'm speaking of...the eternal loss of that which is no good in the first place ...btw, the Bible NEVER talks about the loss of the Spirit..only the 'Soul'.I know God will be 'all in all'..but the 'All' that is in Him must be holy and pure. not wicked..and God will dash and remake the wicked ones, like Hitler or Pol Pot..like a potter remodels clay...so that only the pure burnished 'good' remains.I believe this concept of the 'loss of the soul' that Jesus spoke of best fits the UR eschatological narrative.Of course I'm not God and I could be wrong but it seems both Biblical and logical to me that God will not allow 'evil' in heaven.
Ok, that makes sense. I agree no evil will remain so in that sense they "lose" a part of them, and the more evil a person is the more they will stand to lose. It will likely be a process and probably very difficult.
Speaking from personal experience as a non-Hitler, lots of my sin and tendency to want to sin have been lost but I don't miss it! I don't even view a lot of what I've done in the past as "me." Lots more still present within since we are yet to be perfected and I am happy for it to be gone some day! I think, though we are clearly speculating about things, that when Hitler is perfected and at one with Christ, he will feel glad to be rid of the evil that was within him even if it was a big part of him/his soul. I'd speculate he would feel anguish and torture and regret for a time but that can't, in my opinion, last forever, or else that is basically an eternal hell of sorts.
What a beautiful way to express the sinful nature, GodisLove !
Thankful for you both ,and Darryl you are right such wonderful thoughts !
I see this separation as to when the clay pots are broken[body counts for nothing] and the soul [life one lived [ seat of emotions ] are still joined to the Spirit for further processing .and possible things I cannot even imagine really but .
When my sister Pam had been separated from her mortal body , she was expressing to me that she was not that body she saw laying on the ground ,
but was having a near death experience , or separation [out of the body of death ] and her true self [soul ] was bound too was still with the Spirit of Life .What was keeping her alive still .
And during this separation , she told me with great joy that she had never felt this kind of Love and connection her entire mortal life and knew it was Jesus presence with her .
She began seeing everything take place from an above view of how the neighbor man come over and had called 911 and the ambulance had come and paramedics to work on her .
She remembered little else , but being awakened back into her own body again , and in the hospital after a bad bleeding arm .
but the change in her was remarkable after her experience .
I do not know why , but this always encouraged me and found her ''confession ''to be very believable ,a real faith booster in the Lord , She began to read the bible and seek a church and considered the Lord from that point on in everything .
I am one whom believes there is so much more to come than just this mortal existence now .
And do have pity on those whom do not feel this way . Whom live there lives with no considering the Lord Jesus Christ what so ever .
I had heard as a child , but did not know anything as I ought too . Everyone learns though their own experiences .
No one can confess the Lord Jesus Christ except by the HOLY SPIRIT being our witness and sees and knows everything ...
Quote from: GodIsLove on September 15, 2017, 03:22:52 AM
Quote from: darryl on September 15, 2017, 02:12:46 AM
Quote from: GodIsLove on September 14, 2017, 03:32:28 AM
I don't believe any loss will be eternal. Eonian, maybe. But at some point God will be all in all. If in the end all will be in Christ, then in the end "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for you are all one in Christ Jesus." and if we are all one with Christ there is no one who is less than.
Just my opinion.
hmmm,this is difficult to put into words because it's dealing with abstract concepts, but I'll try...a question : will a Pol Pot (as a stereotypical evil person) be in heaven without being stripped of his evil ?...without suffering eternal loss of the depraved elements of his soul' ?...hmmm, didnt Jesus say better to lose the entire world than lose ones soul ?. ..surely the loss of the wicked and depraved parts of his soul will take place..that's the eternal loss I'm speaking of...the eternal loss of that which is no good in the first place ...btw, the Bible NEVER talks about the loss of the Spirit..only the 'Soul'.I know God will be 'all in all'..but the 'All' that is in Him must be holy and pure. not wicked..and God will dash and remake the wicked ones, like Hitler or Pol Pot..like a potter remodels clay...so that only the pure burnished 'good' remains.I believe this concept of the 'loss of the soul' that Jesus spoke of best fits the UR eschatological narrative.Of course I'm not God and I could be wrong but it seems both Biblical and logical to me that God will not allow 'evil' in heaven.
Ok, that makes sense. I agree no evil will remain so in that sense they "lose" a part of them, and the more evil a person is the more they will stand to lose. It will likely be a process and probably very difficult.
Speaking from personal experience as a non-Hitler, lots of my sin and tendency to want to sin have been lost but I don't miss it! I don't even view a lot of what I've done in the past as "me." Lots more still present within since we are yet to be perfected and I am happy for it to be gone some day! I think, though we are clearly speculating about things, that when Hitler is perfected and at one with Christ, he will feel glad to be rid of the evil that was within him even if it was a big part of him/his soul. I'd speculate he would feel anguish and torture and regret for a time but that can't, in my opinion, last forever, or else that is basically an eternal hell of sorts.
that's right , anguish and torment cant last forever otherwise there'd be 'tears in heaven' and the Bible says there's no tears there.
Quote from: GodIsLove on September 15, 2017, 03:22:52 AM
Quote from: darryl on September 15, 2017, 02:12:46 AM
Quote from: GodIsLove on September 14, 2017, 03:32:28 AM
I don't believe any loss will be eternal. Eonian, maybe. But at some point God will be all in all. If in the end all will be in Christ, then in the end "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for you are all one in Christ Jesus." and if we are all one with Christ there is no one who is less than.
Just my opinion.
hmmm,this is difficult to put into words because it's dealing with abstract concepts, but I'll try...a question : will a Pol Pot (as a stereotypical evil person) be in heaven without being stripped of his evil ?...without suffering eternal loss of the depraved elements of his soul' ?...hmmm, didnt Jesus say better to lose the entire world than lose ones soul ?. ..surely the loss of the wicked and depraved parts of his soul will take place..that's the eternal loss I'm speaking of...the eternal loss of that which is no good in the first place ...btw, the Bible NEVER talks about the loss of the Spirit..only the 'Soul'.I know God will be 'all in all'..but the 'All' that is in Him must be holy and pure. not wicked..and God will dash and remake the wicked ones, like Hitler or Pol Pot..like a potter remodels clay...so that only the pure burnished 'good' remains.I believe this concept of the 'loss of the soul' that Jesus spoke of best fits the UR eschatological narrative.Of course I'm not God and I could be wrong but it seems both Biblical and logical to me that God will not allow 'evil' in heaven.
Ok, that makes sense. I agree no evil will remain so in that sense they "lose" a part of them, and the more evil a person is the more they will stand to lose. It will likely be a process and probably very difficult.
Speaking from personal experience as a non-Hitler, lots of my sin and tendency to want to sin have been lost but I don't miss it! I don't even view a lot of what I've done in the past as "me." Lots more still present within since we are yet to be perfected and I am happy for it to be gone some day! I think, though we are clearly speculating about things, that when Hitler is perfected and at one with Christ, he will feel glad to be rid of the evil that was within him even if it was a big part of him/his soul. I'd speculate he would feel anguish and torture and regret for a time but that can't, in my opinion, last forever, or else that is basically an eternal hell of sorts.
I suspect there'll be more grace there than what we thought possible for example i have personally been there when 2 people close to me died neither of whom were believers in Christ and both had positive experiences before they died...right before one died he smiled past me at something that only he could see and the other person a couple days before he died spoke in a spiritual sense of the room being full of 'gold'.Also my own personal experience of God tells me that He is a very loving, soft and gentle.I know there's stuff in the Bible about God's judgement and wrath but I do not think He's going around all furious and angry with his creation...perhaps He is angry with sin and injustice in the world but does not hate people He loves them. As I said though, I'm not God and can only speak from my own tiny experience and knowledge...we will all find out the Truth soon enough when we pass from this world.
Quote from: darryl on September 15, 2017, 02:12:46 AM
Quote from: GodIsLove on September 14, 2017, 03:32:28 AM
I don't believe any loss will be eternal. Eonian, maybe. But at some point God will be all in all. If in the end all will be in Christ, then in the end "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for you are all one in Christ Jesus." and if we are all one with Christ there is no one who is less than.
Just my opinion.
hmmm,this is difficult to put into words because it's dealing with abstract concepts, but I'll try...a question : will a Pol Pot (as a stereotypical evil person) be in heaven without being stripped of his evil ?...without suffering eternal loss of the depraved elements of his soul' ?...hmmm, didnt Jesus say better to lose the entire world than lose ones soul ?. ..surely the loss of the wicked and depraved parts of his soul will take place..that's the eternal loss I'm speaking of...the eternal loss of that which is no good in the first place ...btw, the Bible NEVER talks about the loss of the Spirit..only the 'Soul'.I know God will be 'all in all'..but the 'All' that is in Him must be holy and pure. not wicked..and God will dash and remake the wicked ones, like Hitler or Pol Pot..like a potter remodels clay...so that only the pure burnished 'good' remains.I believe this concept of the 'loss of the soul' that Jesus spoke of best fits the UR eschatological narrative.Of course I'm not God and I could be wrong but it seems both Biblical and logical to me that God will not allow 'evil' in heaven.
Absolutely!! :iagree: ...but I kind of think of "better to lose this or that to to lose one's soul" as better than to lose one's life.. though I don't know if that's accurate or not as the word soul is translated from a word that we get psyche from.. so self? But I can't think of us as having a "soul" as in an immortal part as - well, just yesterday, I think it was (for example) I was reading in the interlinear a word which had in its meaning - incorruptable, imperishable and immortal.
Since none of us thus far are incorruptible, I figure we are also not yet 'immortal'.. though I tend to think all life is in Jesus, He and the Father and God's Spirit (Presence?) as being the only ones with immortality.. all others' life is, and will be in them..
"Spirit" being breath.. life force.. breath and spark of life, but which vitality returns to God.. and "soul" as psych.. and self, but not as immortal.. this is how I think anyway.. "better to lose a hand, or etc, than to lose one's life in the valley of Geheena" (war? judgment? of that day coming in 70 a.d? :dontknow: )
Now what did I read the other day in the interlinear.. I think it was in the Hebrew, something about the dead resting in their beds.. :Chinscratch: maybe I can find it through search..
oh yes, now I remember, after a google search ("bible verse dead resting in bed") - I was reading in Isaiah,
Isaiah 57:1-2, "The righteous perish,
and no one takes it to heart;
the devout are taken away,
and no one understands
that the righteous are taken away
to be spared from evil.
2 Those who walk uprightly
enter into peace;
they find rest as they lie in death."
Of course other translations say it differently "...no one understands that the righteous are taken away to be spared from evil. 2 They shall enter into peace: they shall rest in their beds, each one walking in his uprightness." (KJ)
...verse #1 sure sounds like death.. :dontknow: or so i have always assumed..
Amplified bible - "2 He [in death] enters into peace; they rest in their beds, each one who walks straight and in his uprightness."
and Young's - "2 He entereth into peace, they rest on their beds, [Each] is going straightforward."
The interlinear - "2 He shall enter into peace they shall rest in their beds [each one] walking [in] his uprightness"
(the righteous) he shall enter, is "bo: to come in, come, go in, go" -- into peace, is "shalom: completeness, soundness, welfare, peace -- they shall rest is "nuach: to rest -- in is "al: upon, above, over" -- in their beds is "mishkab: place of lying, a couch, act of lying" -- [each one, added] - walking, is "halak: to go, come, walk" -- in his righteousness is "nakoach: straight, right, straightness"
? :dontknow:
Um.. just a little study review for me..
-----------
Quote from: darryl on September 15, 2017, 02:12:46 AM
I suspect there'll be more grace there than what we thought possible for example i have personally been there when 2 people close to me died neither of whom were believers in Christ and both had positive experiences before they died...right before one died he smiled past me at something that only he could see and the other person a couple days before he died spoke in a spiritual sense of the room being full of 'gold'.Also my own personal experience of God tells me that He is a very loving, soft and gentle.I know there's stuff in the Bible about God's judgement and wrath but I do not think He's going around all furious and angry with his creation...perhaps He is angry with sin and injustice in the world but does not hate people He loves them.
:thumbsup:
Quote from: GodIsLove on September 15, 2017, 03:22:52 AM
Ok, that makes sense. I agree no evil will remain so in that sense they "lose" a part of them, and the more evil a person is the more they will stand to lose. It will likely be a process and probably very difficult.
Speaking from personal experience as a non-Hitler, lots of my sin and tendency to want to sin have been lost but I don't miss it! I don't even view a lot of what I've done in the past as "me."
I know just what you mean! I think that's very true of us believers..
Quote from: GodIsLove on September 15, 2017, 03:22:52 AM
Lots more still present within since we are yet to be perfected and I am happy for it to be gone some day! I think, though we are clearly speculating about things, that when Hitler is perfected and at one with Christ, he will feel glad to be rid of the evil that was within him even if it was a big part of him/his soul. I'd speculate he would feel anguish and torture and regret for a time but that can't, in my opinion, last forever, or else that is basically an eternal hell of sorts.
:thumbsup: amen..
Him I'm or gaheena- gay (valley) Hinnom is still a bit mysterious.. where body and soul/psych can be killed.. as in perish?
The wages of sin is death.. God so loved the world He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believes in Him shall not perish..
It was a great indignant humiliation to a Hebrew to lie unburied at death..
Isaiah 66 with its reference to all (the whole/pas?) will look upon the dead remains of the transgressors and be abhorred..
It is after resurrection that the lake of fire is a possibility.. in it, I'm assuming, one can indeed "perish"..?
:Chinscratch: just some thoughts..
Quote from: marie glen on September 15, 2017, 04:02:31 PM
Him I'm or gaheena- gay (valley) Hinnom is still a bit mysterious.. where body and soul/psych can be killed.. as in perish?
It is after resurrection that the lake of fire is a possibility.. in it, I'm assuming, one can indeed "perish"..?
:Chinscratch: just some thoughts..
these concepts are really difficult and abstract because they're dealing with the next life/world/ existence/experience ...my feeling is its kinda like an ant trying to understand this world and we are the ants...even though elements of the next world are described in literal terms in the Bible ( see the Book of Revelation, the New Jerusalem etc ) maybe it was like that to give us some little idea of it but the reality will be something we could never have even comprehended in this world...
well, I'm not God and I'm not dead yet so anything I say about it could be all wrong..I just base my thoughts about the next world on the Bible, on my own experiences with Jesus and maybe some other stuff maybe thrown into the 'mix'........the 'perish' bit maybe refers to the soul perishing but its found again like the lost coin ?...or maybe God 'perishes/ destroys' the evil elements of the soul but leaves the Spirit be (I believe in a tri-une nature of human beings,Spirit, Soul, Body) ...hmmm, food for thought...
I'm the first to admit I don't know everything and I could be wrong and I've been wrong about stuff in this life let alone the next but my opinion/ feelings/ beliefs about it all are probably/ possibly as good as the next persons...I dunno, it's all just chatting, opinions etc, not 'written in stone'.I try not to be too 'pretentious' about stuff like I know everything. We are all on a journey, all on the Road.
However, Jesus did say 'Seek and Ye shall find' and I have found that to be true in my own experience.I have 'found' a lot but there's still much more to 'find' !.
Here's something I found interesting in the sermon on the mount Jesus was talking to his disciples "first of all" - luke12:4 (Mt 5:21-26)
In Luke it's remembered as being in danger of hellfire/Gehenna (judgment?) which I am believing to be during this lifetime.. immediately after that admonishment he says "fear not you are worth more than many sparrows for the very hairs of your head are counted" (so loved you are!)
So it seems kind of like he was saying .. fear not but if you must fear, fear He who is able to destroy both psych/soul and body in Gehenna (valley of Hinnom fires)
And the fire that is not quenched is one not extinguished but burns til all is consumed that can be.. as one of the prophets (Isaiah?) sail the fire of jerusalem's judgment would never be quenched.. but we can see there is no fire there now, so evidently it did go out.. but it was not extinguished but burned itself out.
The worm can be seen as maggots and they too do not cease to devour refuse, trash, morbidity (all of ones yuckiness) until all is consumed..
...this being the aim of judgment
:2c: :Peace2:
another perspective re; the worm that does not die.....Jacob you worm...and transformation into a butterfly[new creature]ISRAEL
sown in corruption and weakness[worm] raised up in incorruption,power. the image of the corrupt/the image of the incorruptible
that which is corruptible[weak flesh] must put on incorruption[spirit]
Quote from: sheila on September 17, 2017, 05:27:48 PM
another perspective re; the worm that does not die.....Jacob you worm...and transformation into a butterfly[new creature]ISRAEL
sown in corruption and weakness[worm] raised up in incorruption,power. the image of the corrupt/the image of the incorruptible
that which is corruptible[weak flesh] must put on incorruption[spirit]
Amen, Sheila! I love that image.. of the worm being transformed into the beautiful free flying butterfly.. a living parable!
Trivia on the butterfly :laughing7: - i googled "bible verse butterfly" and came up those great verses, be renewed in mind by washing of the word and we are transformed from image to image into the likeness of the Lord..
But also I came across this, how the butterfly (Monarch) goes through four stages in its transformation, the egg, the worm, the pupa (chrysalis), and then the butterfly! this reminded me of the child or childhood, the sinner, the larvae/chrysalis, nestled up with God learning, being transformed.. til at his return when is put on incorruptibility and immortality, the butterfly..
the worm does not die but becomes a butterfly... yes !...brilliant. :dsunny:
Quote from: darryl on September 18, 2017, 05:17:07 AM
the worm does not die but becomes a butterfly... yes !...brilliant. :dsunny:
:faint: ..Amen!! I for one, didn't even notice that! ...man! He certainly is a brilliant communicator (among all other things too of course!)
:cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9:
...and I was wondering, about this today, after reading about it today, if this which Jesus said makes - "wherefore if your hand or your foot offend you, cut them off, and cast them from you: it is better for you to enter into life disabled, than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting (
aionian/'age-lasting') fire. And if your eye offend you, pluck it out" (the offending impulse) "and cast it from you: it is better for you to enter into life with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell (
Gehenna) fire" -
And then elsewhere He says "
aionios/'age-abiding' (translated everlasting)
fire,
prepared for the devil and his angels" which we know(?) is the lake of fire - does this make all these the same fire?
Jesus told his disciples who had come to him apart from the crowd, if they were called their brother fool, they would be in danger of gehenna fire.. which I am coming to believe occurs to believers/followers during this lifetime.. we daily appearing before the judgment seat of Jesus(?) - salted with fire, encouraged, and admonished when we need it, to honestly judge ourselves.. and also He says He has already kindled his fire.. and judgment begins in the house of God..
...
1 Corinthians 11:31-32 - "For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world." :dontknow: :dontknow:
Quote from: marie glen on September 18, 2017, 06:07:11 AM
Jesus told his disciples who had come to him apart from the crowd, if they were called their brother fool, they would be in danger of gehenna fire.. which I am coming to believe occurs to believers/followers during this lifetime.. we daily appearing before the judgment seat of Jesus(?) - salted with fire, encouraged, and admonished when we need it, to honestly judge ourselves.. and also He says He has already kindled his fire.. and judgment begins in the house of God..
...
1 Corinthians 11:31-32 - "For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world."
:dontknow: :dontknow:
yes...a strange coincidence in regards to your comment but i was thinking today that maybe sometimes this life is the 'Gehenna' Jesus spoke of 'cos of some of the strange challenging things we go through...hmmm, very interesting !.
:Chinscratch:
That is exActly what I've been thinking! This morning it's been 'missing the mark (translated sin, but I think of it as imperfection- God being perfection and also life)
missing the mark is tribulation and tribulation is the lake of fire..
?
P.S. where the worm does not die.. but is transformed.. (living parable, butterfly)
(because of the fire / life? / Him, which is never quenched / put out..)
I believe hell is a place of punishments for the unsaved, but that it is not everlasting.
If the unsaved believes in Jesus in hell, they will become the saved.
Quote from: hishandmaiden on January 23, 2019, 06:19:46 AM
I believe hell is a place of punishments for the unsaved, but that it is not everlasting.
If the unsaved believes in Jesus in hell, they will become the saved.
I believe the same in part.
I do
not believe there is any real fire involved.
I
do believe many Christians (believers in Christ) go there as the Sheep and Goat parable teaches.
Quote from: hishandmaiden on January 23, 2019, 06:19:46 AM
I believe hell is a place of punishments for the unsaved, but that it is not everlasting.
If the unsaved believes in Jesus in hell, they will become the saved.
I sort of agree, but I think of it as the purifying Spirit of God - "our God is a consuming fire" / consuming all impurity - and just like we have experienced it! Burning shame for sins (Greek "missing the mark").. I think it's during Judgment 'Day' that "all the ends of Earth will remember and turn to the LORD, and all families of the nation's will worship before Him". (Psalm 22:27)
A bit like MG said, what if "hell" is the presence of God? None can escape His presence anyway.
Or, at other times (lol) I think the lake of fire, where death and the grave, translated hell, are cast, as no humans actually going there, having all been drawn to Jesus, asHe said - He will draw all to Himself, Jn.12:32 - during “the Judgment”. Lof being “the second death”. And those thrown to it in Rev 19, I think are 2 “things” - a world institution (beast one of chapter 13) and a belief / false prophet/teacher/teaching.. the “strong delusion” which caused/is causing the “falling away” of western civilization, once called Christendom, from the faith.. These two institutions of man cast to lof “alive/active” at Jesus’ return.
:gsmile:
Quote from: sven on December 01, 2008, 03:50:34 PM
QuoteWhat the point IS tho and what IS important is the fact that there is NO ETERNAL hellfire or punishments
thats true, how can a normal human beeing accept the idea of everlasting hell? or say this is just or hope that someone would go there? it will never go in my mind, every person should be glad when telling them, what these words meant, but so many people, they want hell to be real, why?
'cas some cant feel like WINNERS unless theres LOSERS ?....
i question eternal damnation. somebody can say in thy seed all nations- singular vs so shall thy seed be-many. other words limit the application. it seems european capitalism and calvanism worked together to curse anybody who cant keep up with the born against bourgeois.