names enrolled

[marie glen]

"Behold, I give you the authority to tread upon serpents and scorpions, and upon all the power of the enemy, and nothing will injure you. Nevertheless do not rejoice in this, that the spirits are subject to you, but rejoice that your names are recorded in heaven." (Luke 10:19,20)

..I will put My law in their minds and inscribe it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they will be My people. (Jeremiah 31:33)

For in this, his will, we are made holy in the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.  (Hebrews 10:10)
      - G2178 ephapax - once for all

"This is the covenant I will make with them after those days" declares the Lord. "I will put My Laws in their hearts and inscribe them on their minds." (Hebrews 10:16)

You have come to the joyful gathering of God's first-born, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, who is the judge of all people, and to the spirits of good people made perfect. (Hebrews 12:23)
        - G3831 - panéguris - a festal assembly / G583  - apogegrammenōn -  having been enrolled; inscribe in a register / - G5048 - teteleiōmenōn - having been perfected; to complete, perfect; to consummate, reaching the end-stage, working through the entire process

...only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life. (Revelation 21:27)
    - G1125 -gegrammenoi - having been written; commit to writing (things not to be forgotten), record

..and, in the very place where it was said to them, "You are not my people," there they will be called "children of the living God". (Romans 9:26)

..we have set our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe. (1 Timothy 4:10)

Just some interesting verses, was pondering how they complement one another..

[jabcat]

"Behold, I give you the authority to tread upon serpents and scorpions, and upon all the power of the enemy, and nothing will injure you. Nevertheless do not rejoice in this, that the spirits are subject to you, but rejoice that your names are recorded in heaven." (Luke 10:19,20)

:thumbsup:

[MusicLover123]

"Behold, I give you the authority to tread upon serpents and scorpions, and upon all the power of the enemy, and nothing will injure you. Nevertheless do not rejoice in this, that the spirits are subject to you, but rejoice that your names are recorded in heaven." (Luke 10:19,20)

:thumbsup:

Here's a question: our old name or new name? Same with the Book of Life(Christ), is it the old one or new?

[marie glen]

I think our names are in the Lamb's Book of Life.. which I believe records all who have eternal life through Jesus.. I 'm inclined to think the name we have now - I read once that the new name is "Christian" whether true or not I have no idea.

The question I have is can a person's name be written in the book of life on judgment day.. I think we're used to assuming no, but I would have to wonder why not..
:gsmile:

[DavidFord]

I think our names are in the Lamb's Book of Life.. which I believe records all who have eternal life through Jesus

Are the names of Hitler, Stalin, and Pol Pot in the Lamb's Book of Life?

[CST]

I think our names are in the Lamb's Book of Life.. which I believe records all who have eternal life through Jesus.. I 'm inclined to think the name we have now - I read once that the new name is "Christian" whether true or not I have no idea.

The question I have is can a person's name be written in the book of life on judgment day.. I think we're used to assuming no, but I would have to wonder why not..
:gsmile:

I think there's a hymn that says our new name is 'Love' but I may have misremembered.

[DavidFord]

I think there's a hymn that says our new name is 'Love' but I may have misremembered.

Song of Songs (KJV) 2:4 Let him lead me to the banquet hall, and let his banner over me be love.

[DavidFord]

"Behold, I give you the authority to tread upon serpents and scorpions, and upon all the power of the enemy, and nothing will injure you. Nevertheless do not rejoice in this, that the spirits are subject to you, but rejoice that your names are recorded in heaven." (Luke 10:19,20)
....
Just some interesting verses, was pondering how they complement one another..

Psalm 69:28 (NIV)  May they be blotted out of the book of life and not be listed with the righteous.
Psalm 69:28 (KJV)  Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous.

Romans 3:10 (KJV)  As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch="book+of+life"&qs_version=KJV
Philippians 4:3 And I intreat thee also, true yokefellow, help those women which laboured with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and with other my fellowlabourers, whose names are in the book of life.
Revelation 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Revelation 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Revelation 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.
Revelation 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

[GodIsLove]

I keep seeing references to blotting out names...

Does this mean we are all written in the book of life, but can be blotted out?

And if so, it's not an immutable book, it can be erased, so it stands to reason it can be added to.

So if someone's name is in the book of life they ARE alive:

John 5:24
24 "Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

If their name is not in the book of life it means they ARE currently dead (spiritually), as we all were at one point:

Eph 2:1
New American Standard Bible
And you were dead in your trespasses and sins,

King James Bible
And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins

Good News Translation
In the past you were spiritually dead because of your disobedience and sins.

So those who are spiritually dead go to the LOF to die a second death...the one that those written in the book of life have already experienced:

Romans 6:6
knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin;

Galatians 2:20
"I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.

Colossians 2:20
If you have died with Christ to the elementary principles of the world, why, as if you were living in the world, do you submit yourself to decrees, such as,

2 Timothy 2:11
It is a trustworthy statement: For if we died with Him, we will also live with Him;

Which means when they pass through the lake of fire they pass from a state of perpetual death aka spiritual death, and die again, to be raised a new creation in Christ.

Because the lake of fire:

Exodus 24:17
17 To the Israelites the glory of the LORD looked like a consuming fire on top of the mountain.

Luke 3:16
16 John answered them all, "I baptize you with water. But one who is more powerful than I will come, the straps of whose sandals I am not worthy to untie. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

Matthew 3:11-12
11 "I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me comes one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. 12 His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor, gathering his wheat into the barn and burning up the chaff with unquenchable fire."

Chaff:
the husks of corn or other seed separated by winnowing or threshing.
synonyms: husks, hulls, pods, shells, bran, shucks
"separating the chaff from the grain"

So every grain of wheat has chaff. Chaff isn't a separate entity but a part of us that will be separated and burned up in His fire.

[marie glen]

Amen.. but tares are weeds.. Jesus says when He returns He will gather the wheat into His barn, but the tares will be gathered to be burned.. And I do not believe that refers to afterlife torment or even refining but is metaphor for the gathering to the last war, armageddon.

So again, not a reference to a hell..

I find it interesting that the Lord said, the lof was "created for the devil and his angels" and i do believe they will come out the other end changed and reconciled..

[CST]

I think there's a hymn that says our new name is 'Love' but I may have misremembered.

Song of Songs (KJV) 2:4 Let him lead me to the banquet hall, and let his banner over me be love.

No, I mean a more modern hymn, but I forget which.

I keep seeing references to blotting out names...

Does this mean we are all written in the book of life, but can be blotted out?

And if so, it's not an immutable book, it can be erased, so it stands to reason it can be added to.

So if someone's name is in the book of life they ARE alive:

Yes, no, yes. or that's how it's traditionally been held anyway. The idea is that God isn't rash and wouldn't rashly remove names from the Book of Life. It's generally held that God's removal of names is irrevocable because God isn't fickle and wouldn't remove them without very good cause. However it would seem that initially the names in the book are limited so that would suggest that if names can't be added some people have no chance. Which, of course, Calvinists are fine with but. Personally I think that "praising God and enjoying the favor of all the people. And the Lord added to their number daily those who were being saved." (Acts 2:47) and other phrases in Acts like it suggests names can be added indeed.

Amen.. but tares are weeds.. Jesus says when He returns He will gather the wheat into His barn, but the tares will be gathered to be burned.. And I do not believe that refers to afterlife torment or even refining but is metaphor for the gathering to the last war, armageddon.

So again, not a reference to a hell..

I find it interesting that the Lord said, the lof was "created for the devil and his angels" and i do believe they will come out the other end changed and reconciled..

I see things differently here, the wheat and the tares are generally taken (and translated) to be good and bad people but I don't believe that to be so. If it is so, UR is dead.

[marie glen]

I see things differently here, the wheat and the tares are generally taken (and translated) to be good and bad people but I don't believe that to be so. If it is so, UR is dead.

Only if one assumes the tares are gathered to hell.. I believe the tares are gathered to Armageddon the final war and battle, depicted / prophesied.

Revelation 16:14-16
14 For they are spirits of demons, performing signs, which go out to the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

15 "Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is he who watches, and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame."

16 And they gathered them together to the place called in Hebrew, Armageddon.

[CST]

Not really, tares plus fire equals nothing left of tares to save.

[marie glen]

 :Chinscratch: I have to ask what you think the parables of Jesus are..

This one of course is in Matthew 13.. What do you think it means? :gsmile:

24 Another simile he set before them, saying: `The reign of the heavens was likened to a man sowing good seed in his field,

25 and, while men are sleeping, his enemy came and sowed darnel (tares) in the midst of the wheat, and went away,

26 and when the herb sprang up, and yielded fruit, then appeared also the darnel.

27 `And the servants of the householder, having come near, said to him, Sir, good seed didst thou not sow in thy field? whence then hath it the darnel?

28 And he saith to them, A man, an enemy, did this; and the servants said to him, Wilt thou, then, [that] having gone away we may gather it up?

29 `And he said, No, lest -- gathering up the darnel -- ye root up with it the wheat,

30 suffer both to grow together till the harvest, and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather up first the darnel, and bind it in bundles, to burn it, and the wheat gather up into my storehouse.'

Note: this is not wheat and chaff.. chaff is part of the wheat..

[marie glen]

my opinion and speculation is -

Two ages are alluded to and outlined in the later chapters of the Book of Revelation. The millennium, into which all believers are resurrected. And the judgment (age) into which the rest of mankind (whom God loves) are raised.

"All the ends of the Earth will remember and turn to the LORD. And all families will worship before Him" Psalm 22:27.

"Every knee shall bow and every tongue will wholeheartedly confess, Jesus is Lord" (according to the original Greek, Philippians 2:10,11, and it shall be "to the glory of God".

"God is love" and "love never (ever) fails" 1 John 4:8 and 1 Corinthians 13:8.

"Behold I make all things new.. as through Adam all die, all will live through Jesus, but each in their own order, Christ the firstfruits, then those that are His at His coming ...then comes "the end" when He submits the kingdom to the Father.. that God may be all in all" 1 Corinthians 15:22-28

"The kingdom is like leaven which a woman took and worked in three loaves, until all-is-leavened" Matthew 13:33; 1 Cor.15:22-28?


The "Day of The LORD" comes suddenly.. The day of the LORD (most commentaries agree) is not the return of Jesus, which occurs within that day..

my opinion - included is Mt 24:28-31 and Rev 20:5 "raised after the 1000 years.."
- "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall be seen.. ..the Son of man coming on the clouds.. and He will send out His angels to gather His elect from the four winds of Earth" - His wheat into His barn. (The tares having been gathered to Armageddon? And will be "raised after the thousand years"/i.e., after the millennium along with all the rest of mankind not yet reconciled to God. The chaff of their character to be winnowed, as believers were, that they become wheat as an offering to God at "the end" when He makes all things new and will now "tabernacle with mankind upon Earth made new. And there shall be no more death, nor pain, tears, or sorrow.." Mt.24:28-31; Rev.21:1-5.

"The bear will graze with the cow, the lion will eat straw like the ox" Isaiah 11:7.

The Pattern of the Day of the LORD which includes the Long Second Advent Of Jesus:

(from) Trumpets (the7,including the last, that are written of in the Book of Rev.) - 10days/1000years later - Day Of Atonement - 5days/500years later - Tabernacles/God is all, in all.

Revelation providing the outline of two ages, plus Daniel 12:2 - `And the multitude of those sleeping in the dust of the ground do awake, some to life age-during, and some to reproaches -- to abhorrence age-during.

Rev. 20:6 - 6 Happy and holy [is] he who is having part in the first rising again; over these the second death hath not authority, but they shall be priests of God and of the Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. 5 and the rest of the dead did not live again till the thousand years may be finished;

We have to put the verses together..

Jesus said, John 5:29, and they shall come forth; those who did the good things to a rising again of life, and those who practised the evil things to a rising again of judgment.

Two literal resurrections, and I think 2 ages, the millennium and day of atonement. To me obvious and unavoidable, lol. :gsmile:

[CST]

:Chinscratch: I have to ask what you think the parables of Jesus are..

This one of course is in Matthew 13.. What do you think it means? :gsmile:

24 Another simile he set before them, saying: `The reign of the heavens was likened to a man sowing good seed in his field,

25 and, while men are sleeping, his enemy came and sowed darnel (tares) in the midst of the wheat, and went away,

26 and when the herb sprang up, and yielded fruit, then appeared also the darnel.

27 `And the servants of the householder, having come near, said to him, Sir, good seed didst thou not sow in thy field? whence then hath it the darnel?

28 And he saith to them, A man, an enemy, did this; and the servants said to him, Wilt thou, then, [that] having gone away we may gather it up?

29 `And he said, No, lest -- gathering up the darnel -- ye root up with it the wheat,

30 suffer both to grow together till the harvest, and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather up first the darnel, and bind it in bundles, to burn it, and the wheat gather up into my storehouse.'

Note: this is not wheat and chaff.. chaff is part of the wheat..

Yes, I'm aware it's not the wheat and the chaff you ask me to explain what I think it means but first  have to remind you what Jesus says it means according to the text of the Bible otherwise I'm speculating outside context:

"Then having let away the multitudes, Jesus came to the house, and his disciples came near to him, saying, 'Explain to us the simile of the darnel of the field.'"
"And he answering said to them, 'He who is sowing the good seed is the Son of Man, and the field is the world, and the good seed, these are the sons of the reign, and the darnel are the sons of the evil one, and the enemy who sowed them is the devil, and the harvest is a full end of the age, and the reapers are messengers."
"'As, then, the darnel is gathered up, and is burned with fire, so shall it be in the full end of this age, the Son of Man shall send forth his messengers, and they shall gather up out of his kingdom all the stumbling-blocks, and those doing the unlawlessness, and shall cast them to the furnace of the fire; there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of the teeth. 'Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the reign of their Father. He who is having ears to hear -- let him hear." (Matthew 13:36-43)

Now, generally, when people read this parable, they see the terms 'sons of the reign' and 'sons of the evil one' they think it means 'good people' who serve God, and 'evil people' who serve Satan. If this is true they UR is dead. the evil people who are the darnel, the tares, are thrown into the fire where they become ash, which is their end for always. There is no provision to turn them into wheat or better tares and nor would it be reasonable to expect one; that's not how the parables work.

Of course I don't believe this, if true it supports Calvinism to an abhorrent degree, the tares are planted by the devil and God has nothing to do with them. He has no obligation to them and they perpetually remain tares which they can never do anything about. They're born, they live their evil life, they die and go to Hell forever: it is an immutable course. Again, I don't believe that.

Evil and Good are in a state of flux in the world, you take some evil away, and some good goes away too. These days the people of the world seem particularly self-righteous about their beliefs, always wanting to destroy any historic symbols of things they now consider abhorrent. Attitudes of the past that have no place in the present so they just erase them from the present. These are the wheat and the tares.

The parable teaches that removing the evil somehow removes the good with it, because people are in this binary Good or Evil state where you can just say which is which for all time. Opposition to evil produces good things, some good things do exist because there is evil in the world. It's a strange concept but I hold that that is what the parable means. If all that was required was for God to kill all the evil people He could do it easily and immediately leaving only the good one, but it doesn't work like that. What the parable teaches is that when the time comes God will removes and destroy, all causes of evil in the world leaving only good the destroyed causes are the tares and they're gone for good.

Notice at the end of His explanation of the parable Jesus states that, "He who is having ears to hear - let him hear." Which would seem to imply that even the explanation of the parable is some sort of parable.

That's how I believe the parable is meant to be read.

[GodIsLove]

:Chinscratch: I have to ask what you think the parables of Jesus are..

This one of course is in Matthew 13.. What do you think it means? :gsmile:

24 Another simile he set before them, saying: `The reign of the heavens was likened to a man sowing good seed in his field,

25 and, while men are sleeping, his enemy came and sowed darnel (tares) in the midst of the wheat, and went away,

26 and when the herb sprang up, and yielded fruit, then appeared also the darnel.

27 `And the servants of the householder, having come near, said to him, Sir, good seed didst thou not sow in thy field? whence then hath it the darnel?

28 And he saith to them, A man, an enemy, did this; and the servants said to him, Wilt thou, then, [that] having gone away we may gather it up?

29 `And he said, No, lest -- gathering up the darnel -- ye root up with it the wheat,

30 suffer both to grow together till the harvest, and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather up first the darnel, and bind it in bundles, to burn it, and the wheat gather up into my storehouse.'

Note: this is not wheat and chaff.. chaff is part of the wheat..

Yes, I'm aware it's not the wheat and the chaff you ask me to explain what I think it means but first  have to remind you what Jesus says it means according to the text of the Bible otherwise I'm speculating outside context:

"Then having let away the multitudes, Jesus came to the house, and his disciples came near to him, saying, 'Explain to us the simile of the darnel of the field.'"
"And he answering said to them, 'He who is sowing the good seed is the Son of Man, and the field is the world, and the good seed, these are the sons of the reign, and the darnel are the sons of the evil one, and the enemy who sowed them is the devil, and the harvest is a full end of the age, and the reapers are messengers."
"'As, then, the darnel is gathered up, and is burned with fire, so shall it be in the full end of this age, the Son of Man shall send forth his messengers, and they shall gather up out of his kingdom all the stumbling-blocks, and those doing the unlawlessness, and shall cast them to the furnace of the fire; there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of the teeth. 'Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the reign of their Father. He who is having ears to hear -- let him hear." (Matthew 13:36-43)

What age?
This age.

Who was he talking to?
A multitude of Jews, and the privately to his disciples, also Jews

What age was it at the time?
The age of the law.

So when will this happen?
At the end of this age, the age of the law.

What age are we in now?
The age of grace.

[jugghead]

Not really, tares plus fire equals nothing left of tares to save.

Sure there is: when the tares are transformed into ash, the ash becomes part of the ground out of which more wheat can grow ..... for out of the darkness the light will shine

In my opinion: in His kingdom, Nothing is wasted

[MusicLover123]

Not really, tares plus fire equals nothing left of tares to save.

Sure there is: when the tares are transformed into ash, the ash becomes part of the ground out of which more wheat can grow ..... for out of the darkness the light will shine

In my opinion: in His kingdom, Nothing is wasted

Joh 12:24  Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit. 
Joh 12:25  He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal. 

[MusicLover123]

Who was he talking to?
A multitude of Jews, and the privately to his disciples, also Jews

Rom 2:28  For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: 
Rom 2:29  But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God. 

Col 2:11  In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: 
Col 2:12  Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. 

I think this would be who it would be talking to, those circumcised in Spirit, cutting off of the flesh WITHOUT HANDS, and not in a physical sense. Or else the entire Bible would basically only be given to those a Jew in a physical sense and not Spiritually.

So when will this happen?
At the end of this age, the age of the law.

Oh, and if you were to say that this parable was only applicable to that certain period of time, I think that would be saying that the seed(which is Christ) would no longer be sown in people. Which is absurd, and would say no one can become a Christian anymore and receive Him. And the problem that it happens only to physical Jews, which I addressed above.

"He who is having ears to hear -- let him hear."

[marie glen]

Of course I don't believe this, if true it supports Calvinism to an abhorrent degree, the tares are planted by the devil and God has nothing to do with them. He has no obligation to them and they perpetually remain tares which they can never do anything about. They're born, they live their evil life, they die and go to Hell forever: it is an immutable course. Again, I don't believe that.

What you're referring to would be the Et interpretation.. which I know I never wrote..

Evil and Good are in a state of flux in the world you take some evil away, and some good goes away too. These days the people of the world seem particularly self-righteous about their beliefs, always wanting to destroy any historic symbols of things they now consider abhorrent. Attitudes of the past that have no place in the present so they just erase them from the present. These are the wheat and the tares.

That is interesting.. Even though I believe it can be read that way, even as applying to our own psyche even, which is where a lot of metaphor seems to be seen as belonging.. Except the good away with the bad doesn't make a lot of sense in that aspect :laughing7:

I believe good and evil are unchanging constants.. but as to the amounts which I'm assuming is what you mean, in the world.. it's my belief there's lots, but to me, there seems to be the sense of both growing and maturing in the world (toward harvest of both).. which I would - if thinking in metaphor of metaphor? - call wheat and tares.

Which would seem to imply that even the explanation of the parable is some sort of parable.

You're right! I believe "the furnace of fire" is metaphor for Armageddon. And any weeping, etc will be done on Judgment Day/Age, not in a fictional 'hell'. Which should be obvious even to Et believers. I mean 'hell'/sentence before trial? Puhlease "He shall judge righteously"!

I believe children of the kingdom are believers, but we were all children of the enemy (tares) before that. And I believe those not saved and reconciled during this life, will be so at the Judgment, in the very same ways we all were.. - that's my belief.

No lake of fire until after age of judgment (is my belief) then will be the devil and his angels (oh dear, forget I said that) that go there, for an age/aion/duration.. for it was "made for them" - (the beast (big) and false prophet are already there at that time, but they, I believe are institutions active at the time of Jesus' (physical) return, and are not humans, but world government and the theory of evolution, 2nd death, in their case annihilation :cloud9: ).

It is my belief no humans go to Lof.

That all repentance, weeping.. any gnashing of teeth and outer darkness away from the feast of God's full greatness, and reconciliation, all occurs on Judgment Day/Age. (The setting for the parable/simile of Lazarus and the rich man.)

And that on that day/age, the tares having now too, become wheat, just like we did, will also - like we have and do - experience the harrowing or whatever it's called when you throw the wheat around so the chaff blows away.. upon the winds..


So on the one hand we have Armageddon. On the other, we have "all the ends of Earth will remember and turn to the LORD and all families of the nations will worship before Him" - when? Well, in every generation, many families of the nation are "asleep in the dust of Earth" Dan.12:2.

So, it must occur at the Judgment.. because it cannot be during the millennium - a literal 1000 years - because again, "the rest of the dead come not back to life until the thousand years are ended" (then, is Judgment Day).

And I have to assume it would be before the time when Jesus submits the kingdom to the Father that He may be all in all-when He has made all things new, literally.. (Rev 21:1-5).

So - if the "wheat/children of the kingdom are gathered into His barn when He returns...

And, "so shall it be in the full end of this age, the Son of Man shall send forth his messengers, and they shall gather up out of his kingdom all the stumbling-blocks, and those doing the unlawlessness, and shall cast them to the furnace of the fire See, you're right! It is metaphor within metaphor! :mshock: - metaphor for Armageddon (imo, but if it's at His return, what else could it be?) But definitely NOT et's 'hell'. :faint:
  :gsmile:

[marie glen]

Not really, tares plus fire equals nothing left of tares to save.

Sure there is: when the tares are transformed into ash, the ash becomes part of the ground out of which more wheat can grow ..... for out of the darkness the light will shine

In my opinion: in His kingdom, Nothing is wasted

Joh 12:24  Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.
Joh 12:25  He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.

Very true. :iagree: And, also, we all used to be tares. As the parable says the tares are children of the enemy, which Paul says we all were before we believed.. I believe upon Judgment Day/Age(imo) like Day of Atonement was annually for Israel, all will repent and be reconciled during that day/age, and enter God's sabbath and feast rest.. Once they believe, they become wheat like we did and will go through the process like we do of having the chaff removed.. shaken away..

[marie glen]

What age?
This age.

Who was he talking to?
A multitude of Jews, and the privately to his disciples, also Jews

What age was it at the time?
The age of the law.

So when will this happen?
At the end of this age, the age of the law.

What age are we in now?
The age of grace.

   :Chinscratch: the harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are the angels. 40 Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age. 41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather -- This last part reminds me of Matthew 24

29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

And also reminds me of Revelation 14,

14 Then I looked, and behold, a white cloud[/i], and on the cloud sat One like the Son of Man, having on His head a golden crown, and in His hand a sharp sickle. 15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to Him who sat on the cloud, "Thrust in Your sickle and reap, for the time has come for You to reap, for the harvest of the earth is ripe." 16 So He who sat on the cloud thrust in His sickle on the earth, and the earth was reaped.

17 Then another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, who had power over [/i]fire, and he cried with a loud cry to him who had the sharp sickle, saying, "Thrust in your sharp sickle and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth, for her grapes are fully ripe." 19 So the angel thrust his sickle into the earth and gathered the vine of the earth, and threw it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. 20 And the winepress was trampled outside the city metaphor for, I believe, Armageddon. Sickles too of course we know are metaphor..

Armageddon is not something I think God does.. but man. He comes and gathers the children of the kingdom just before Armageddon. But - rev 16:14-16 - they have to "gather" to Armageddon before it's fiery occurrence.

So it's not Et's 'hell' that this parable is referring to. Nor the weeping, etc.. which I believe again, not Et's (adopted pagan myth of) 'hell' but upon Judgment 'Day' (imo, Age, when "all ends of Earth will remember/come to their senses-the greek, and turn to the LORD, and all families of the nations will worship/rejoice :cloud9: before Him" Ps 22:27. It's this 'day' I think the parable of Lazarus and the rich man fit in, as parable, or shadow.. a simile of.)

A.D./C.E.. Though the age of law did surely completely end at 70 a.d. - many believe prophecy is one of the things which telescope.. like the advents.. sometimes the two spoken of in one breath, but quite a span of time between them.. The localized advent, His first, and His larger total, long 2nd advent which grows to encompass all.. AS I believe He returns literally and literally seen by every eye.. (whether they see it at occurrence or at great day of (review?)/Judgment).

So too with prophecy? a localized, more or less immediate fulfilment.. the prophets often seeming like this.. then it expands into a larger fulfillment at 'the end' of man's empires and rule..

[CST]

:Chinscratch: I have to ask what you think the parables of Jesus are..

This one of course is in Matthew 13.. What do you think it means? :gsmile:

24 Another simile he set before them, saying: `The reign of the heavens was likened to a man sowing good seed in his field,

25 and, while men are sleeping, his enemy came and sowed darnel (tares) in the midst of the wheat, and went away,

26 and when the herb sprang up, and yielded fruit, then appeared also the darnel.

27 `And the servants of the householder, having come near, said to him, Sir, good seed didst thou not sow in thy field? whence then hath it the darnel?

28 And he saith to them, A man, an enemy, did this; and the servants said to him, Wilt thou, then, [that] having gone away we may gather it up?

29 `And he said, No, lest -- gathering up the darnel -- ye root up with it the wheat,

30 suffer both to grow together till the harvest, and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather up first the darnel, and bind it in bundles, to burn it, and the wheat gather up into my storehouse.'

Note: this is not wheat and chaff.. chaff is part of the wheat..

Yes, I'm aware it's not the wheat and the chaff you ask me to explain what I think it means but first  have to remind you what Jesus says it means according to the text of the Bible otherwise I'm speculating outside context:

"Then having let away the multitudes, Jesus came to the house, and his disciples came near to him, saying, 'Explain to us the simile of the darnel of the field.'"
"And he answering said to them, 'He who is sowing the good seed is the Son of Man, and the field is the world, and the good seed, these are the sons of the reign, and the darnel are the sons of the evil one, and the enemy who sowed them is the devil, and the harvest is a full end of the age, and the reapers are messengers."
"'As, then, the darnel is gathered up, and is burned with fire, so shall it be in the full end of this age, the Son of Man shall send forth his messengers, and they shall gather up out of his kingdom all the stumbling-blocks, and those doing the unlawlessness, and shall cast them to the furnace of the fire; there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of the teeth. 'Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the reign of their Father. He who is having ears to hear -- let him hear." (Matthew 13:36-43)

What age?
This age.

Who was he talking to?
A multitude of Jews, and the privately to his disciples, also Jews

What age was it at the time?
The age of the law.

So when will this happen?
At the end of this age, the age of the law.

What age are we in now?
The age of grace.

I hold age to be a pretty vague term which can apply to many different periods that can overlap with each other. There's clear reason in this parable for thinking what it describes is the final and irrevocable end of evil and the end of the 'age' Jesus was describing. Otherwise what He describes is some sort of failure at that point. Clearly evil is still around so we are currently still in the age as Jesus was describing it.

Not really, tares plus fire equals nothing left of tares to save.

Sure there is: when the tares are transformed into ash, the ash becomes part of the ground out of which more wheat can grow ..... for out of the darkness the light will shine

In my opinion: in His kingdom, Nothing is wasted

A. That's not what the parable says, and
B. The tares do not become the new wheat. The wheat is till wheat, tares are still tares.

Not really, tares plus fire equals nothing left of tares to save.

Sure there is: when the tares are transformed into ash, the ash becomes part of the ground out of which more wheat can grow ..... for out of the darkness the light will shine

In my opinion: in His kingdom, Nothing is wasted

Joh 12:24  Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.
Joh 12:25  He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.

Again, wheat not tares.

Who was he talking to?
A multitude of Jews, and the privately to his disciples, also Jews

Rom 2:28  For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Col 2:11  In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
Col 2:12  Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

I think this would be who it would be talking to, those circumcised in Spirit, cutting off of the flesh WITHOUT HANDS, and not in a physical sense. Or else the entire Bible would basically only be given to those a Jew in a physical sense and not Spiritually.

So when will this happen?
At the end of this age, the age of the law.

Oh, and if you were to say that this parable was only applicable to that certain period of time, I think that would be saying that the seed(which is Christ) would no longer be sown in people. Which is absurd, and would say no one can become a Christian anymore and receive Him. And the problem that it happens only to physical Jews, which I addressed above.

"He who is having ears to hear -- let him hear."

Good, yes!

Of course I don't believe this, if true it supports Calvinism to an abhorrent degree, the tares are planted by the devil and God has nothing to do with them. He has no obligation to them and they perpetually remain tares which they can never do anything about. They're born, they live their evil life, they die and go to Hell forever: it is an immutable course. Again, I don't believe that.

What you're referring to would be the Et interpretation.. which I know I never wrote..

Evil and Good are in a state of flux in the world you take some evil away, and some good goes away too. These days the people of the world seem particularly self-righteous about their beliefs, always wanting to destroy any historic symbols of things they now consider abhorrent. Attitudes of the past that have no place in the present so they just erase them from the present. These are the wheat and the tares.

That is interesting.. Even though I believe it can be read that way, even as applying to our own psyche even, which is where a lot of metaphor seems to be seen as belonging.. Except the good away with the bad doesn't make a lot of sense in that aspect :laughing7:

I believe good and evil are unchanging constants.. but as to the amounts which I'm assuming is what you mean, in the world.. it's my belief there's lots, but to me, there seems to be the sense of both growing and maturing in the world (toward harvest of both).. which I would - if thinking in metaphor of metaphor? - call wheat and tares.

Which would seem to imply that even the explanation of the parable is some sort of parable.

You're right! I believe "the furnace of fire" is metaphor for Armageddon. And any weeping, etc will be done on Judgment Day/Age, not in a fictional 'hell'. Which should be obvious even to Et believers. I mean 'hell'/sentence before trial? Puhlease "He shall judge righteously"!

I believe children of the kingdom are believers, but we were all children of the enemy (tares) before that. And I believe those not saved and reconciled during this life, will be so at the Judgment, in the very same ways we all were.. - that's my belief.

No lake of fire until after age of judgment (is my belief) then will be the devil and his angels (oh dear, forget I said that) that go there, for an age/aion/duration.. for it was "made for them" - (the beast (big) and false prophet are already there at that time, but they, I believe are institutions active at the time of Jesus' (physical) return, and are not humans, but world government and the theory of evolution, 2nd death, in their case annihilation :cloud9: ).

It is my belief no humans go to Lof.

That all repentance, weeping.. any gnashing of teeth and outer darkness away from the feast of God's full greatness, and reconciliation, all occurs on Judgment Day/Age. (The setting for the parable/simile of Lazarus and the rich man.)

And that on that day/age, the tares having now too, become wheat, just like we did, will also - like we have and do - experience the harrowing or whatever it's called when you throw the wheat around so the chaff blows away.. upon the winds..


So on the one hand we have Armageddon. On the other, we have "all the ends of Earth will remember and turn to the LORD and all families of the nations will worship before Him" - when? Well, in every generation, many families of the nation are "asleep in the dust of Earth" Dan.12:2.

So, it must occur at the Judgment.. because it cannot be during the millennium - a literal 1000 years - because again, "the rest of the dead come not back to life until the thousand years are ended" (then, is Judgment Day).

And I have to assume it would be before the time when Jesus submits the kingdom to the Father that He may be all in all-when He has made all things new, literally.. (Rev 21:1-5).

So - if the "wheat/children of the kingdom are gathered into His barn when He returns...

And, "so shall it be in the full end of this age, the Son of Man shall send forth his messengers, and they shall gather up out of his kingdom all the stumbling-blocks, and those doing the unlawlessness, and shall cast them to the furnace of the fire See, you're right! It is metaphor within metaphor! :mshock: - metaphor for Armageddon (imo, but if it's at His return, what else could it be?) But definitely NOT et's 'hell'. :faint:
  :gsmile:

I know you never wrote an ET interpretation but the ET (or ED) reading tends to be the one usually taken so my interpretation, which you asked for, is already addressed in response to that.

You seem to have got what I was saying, the symbols which people take against was just one example. The point is that the narrative of history is so ingrained people might want to go back in time and kill Hitler before he could appoint himself furor (a dark reading but that's the point). This might seem like a good idea and save many lives, but I can guarantee many people who have now been born won't be born and different people will be, history will unfold completely differently than as it is a a ot of things we take for granted may not happen. This is the world we have, changing major details will change a lot of other details and in killing Hitler you may even kill yourself. Again, the wheat and the tares.

Before trail?

"for because of this Christ both died and rose again, and lived again, that both of dead and of living he may be Lord. And thou, why dost thou judge thy brother? or again, thou, why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand at the tribunal of the Christ; for it hath been written, 'I live! saith the Lord -- to Me bow shall every knee, and every tongue shall confess to God;' so, then, each of us concerning himself shall give reckoning to God;" (Romans 14:9-12)

What people don't get is that God knows all, He doesn't need to trap us into explaining ourselves to Him, He knows if we're yet worth saving of not. The reckoning is called 'life' we're giving it, right now. Don't be deceived, beware!

[GodIsLove]

Musiclover wrote: oh, and if you were to say that this parable was only applicable to that certain period of time, I think that would be saying that the seed(which is Christ) would no longer be sown in people. Which is absurd, and would say no one can become a Christian anymore and receive Him. And the problem that it happens only to physical Jews, which I addressed above.

You called someone stupid in another thead, now absurd.

Let's all remember that we don't all have the answers.

If we were all wrong at some point about ET, we can yet again be misinformed, and I am seeing a lot of people on Tentmaker lately with a bit of arrogance about their beliefs.

And while I quoted Musiclover, I could just have easily quoted most people posting the past few weeks.

I am going to take a break from this forum.

If I speak in the tongues[a] of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing.

Love to you all.