Tentmaker Forum

"Behold, I give you the authority to tread upon serpents and scorpions, and upon all the power of the enemy, and nothing will injure you. Nevertheless do not rejoice in this, that the spirits are subject to you, but rejoice that your names are recorded in heaven." (Luke 10:19,20)

..I will put My law in their minds and inscribe it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they will be My people. (Jeremiah 31:33)

For in this, his will, we are made holy in the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.  (Hebrews 10:10)
      - G2178 ephapax - once for all

"This is the covenant I will make with them after those days" declares the Lord. "I will put My Laws in their hearts and inscribe them on their minds." (Hebrews 10:16)

You have come to the joyful gathering of God's first-born, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, who is the judge of all people, and to the spirits of good people made perfect. (Hebrews 12:23)
        - G3831 - panéguris - a festal assembly / G583  - apogegrammenōn -  having been enrolled; inscribe in a register / - G5048 - teteleiōmenōn - having been perfected; to complete, perfect; to consummate, reaching the end-stage, working through the entire process

...only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life. (Revelation 21:27)
    - G1125 -gegrammenoi - having been written; commit to writing (things not to be forgotten), record

..and, in the very place where it was said to them, "You are not my people," there they will be called "children of the living God". (Romans 9:26)

..we have set our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe. (1 Timothy 4:10)

Just some interesting verses, was pondering how they complement one another..

Quote from: marie glen on October 20, 2018, 06:18:49 PM
"Behold, I give you the authority to tread upon serpents and scorpions, and upon all the power of the enemy, and nothing will injure you. Nevertheless do not rejoice in this, that the spirits are subject to you, but rejoice that your names are recorded in heaven." (Luke 10:19,20)

:thumbsup:

Quote from: jabcat on October 20, 2018, 11:21:05 PM

Quote from: marie glen on October 20, 2018, 06:18:49 PM
"Behold, I give you the authority to tread upon serpents and scorpions, and upon all the power of the enemy, and nothing will injure you. Nevertheless do not rejoice in this, that the spirits are subject to you, but rejoice that your names are recorded in heaven." (Luke 10:19,20)

:thumbsup:

Here's a question: our old name or new name? Same with the Book of Life(Christ), is it the old one or new?

I think our names are in the Lamb's Book of Life.. which I believe records all who have eternal life through Jesus.. I 'm inclined to think the name we have now - I read once that the new name is "Christian" whether true or not I have no idea.

The question I have is can a person's name be written in the book of life on judgment day.. I think we're used to assuming no, but I would have to wonder why not..
:gsmile:

Quote from: marie glen on October 21, 2018, 07:02:15 AM
I think our names are in the Lamb's Book of Life.. which I believe records all who have eternal life through Jesus

Are the names of Hitler, Stalin, and Pol Pot in the Lamb's Book of Life?

Quote from: marie glen on October 21, 2018, 07:02:15 AM
I think our names are in the Lamb's Book of Life.. which I believe records all who have eternal life through Jesus.. I 'm inclined to think the name we have now - I read once that the new name is "Christian" whether true or not I have no idea.

The question I have is can a person's name be written in the book of life on judgment day.. I think we're used to assuming no, but I would have to wonder why not..
:gsmile:

I think there's a hymn that says our new name is 'Love' but I may have misremembered.

Quote from: CST on October 23, 2018, 11:29:02 AM
I think there's a hymn that says our new name is 'Love' but I may have misremembered.

Song of Songs (KJV) 2:4 Let him lead me to the banquet hall, and let his banner over me be love.

Quote from: marie glen on October 20, 2018, 06:18:49 PM
"Behold, I give you the authority to tread upon serpents and scorpions, and upon all the power of the enemy, and nothing will injure you. Nevertheless do not rejoice in this, that the spirits are subject to you, but rejoice that your names are recorded in heaven." (Luke 10:19,20)
....
Just some interesting verses, was pondering how they complement one another..

Psalm 69:28 (NIV)  May they be blotted out of the book of life and not be listed with the righteous.
Psalm 69:28 (KJV)  Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous.

Romans 3:10 (KJV)  As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch="book+of+life"&qs_version=KJV (https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch="book+of+life"&qs_version=KJV)
Philippians 4:3 And I intreat thee also, true yokefellow, help those women which laboured with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and with other my fellowlabourers, whose names are in the book of life.
Revelation 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Revelation 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Revelation 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.
Revelation 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

I keep seeing references to blotting out names...

Does this mean we are all written in the book of life, but can be blotted out?

And if so, it's not an immutable book, it can be erased, so it stands to reason it can be added to.

So if someone's name is in the book of life they ARE alive:

John 5:24
24 "Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

If their name is not in the book of life it means they ARE currently dead (spiritually), as we all were at one point:

Eph 2:1
New American Standard Bible
And you were dead in your trespasses and sins,

King James Bible
And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins

Good News Translation
In the past you were spiritually dead because of your disobedience and sins.

So those who are spiritually dead go to the LOF to die a second death...the one that those written in the book of life have already experienced:

Romans 6:6
knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin;

Galatians 2:20
"I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.

Colossians 2:20
If you have died with Christ to the elementary principles of the world, why, as if you were living in the world, do you submit yourself to decrees, such as,

2 Timothy 2:11
It is a trustworthy statement: For if we died with Him, we will also live with Him;

Which means when they pass through the lake of fire they pass from a state of perpetual death aka spiritual death, and die again, to be raised a new creation in Christ.

Because the lake of fire:

Exodus 24:17
17 To the Israelites the glory of the LORD looked like a consuming fire on top of the mountain.

Luke 3:16
16 John answered them all, "I baptize you with water. But one who is more powerful than I will come, the straps of whose sandals I am not worthy to untie. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

Matthew 3:11-12
11 "I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me comes one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. 12 His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor, gathering his wheat into the barn and burning up the chaff with unquenchable fire."

Chaff:
the husks of corn or other seed separated by winnowing or threshing.
synonyms: husks, hulls, pods, shells, bran, shucks
"separating the chaff from the grain"

So every grain of wheat has chaff. Chaff isn't a separate entity but a part of us that will be separated and burned up in His fire.

Amen.. but tares are weeds.. Jesus says when He returns He will gather the wheat into His barn, but the tares will be gathered to be burned.. And I do not believe that refers to afterlife torment or even refining but is metaphor for the gathering to the last war, armageddon.

So again, not a reference to a hell..

I find it interesting that the Lord said, the lof was "created for the devil and his angels" and i do believe they will come out the other end changed and reconciled..

Quote from: DavidFord on October 24, 2018, 05:24:26 AM

Quote from: CST on October 23, 2018, 11:29:02 AM
I think there's a hymn that says our new name is 'Love' but I may have misremembered.

Song of Songs (KJV) 2:4 Let him lead me to the banquet hall, and let his banner over me be love.

No, I mean a more modern hymn, but I forget which.

Quote from: GodIsLove on October 24, 2018, 03:05:55 PM
I keep seeing references to blotting out names...

Does this mean we are all written in the book of life, but can be blotted out?

And if so, it's not an immutable book, it can be erased, so it stands to reason it can be added to.

So if someone's name is in the book of life they ARE alive:

Yes, no, yes. or that's how it's traditionally been held anyway. The idea is that God isn't rash and wouldn't rashly remove names from the Book of Life. It's generally held that God's removal of names is irrevocable because God isn't fickle and wouldn't remove them without very good cause. However it would seem that initially the names in the book are limited so that would suggest that if names can't be added some people have no chance. Which, of course, Calvinists are fine with but. Personally I think that "praising God and enjoying the favor of all the people. And the Lord added to their number daily those who were being saved." (Acts 2:47) and other phrases in Acts like it suggests names can be added indeed.

Quote from: marie glen on October 24, 2018, 05:07:27 PM
Amen.. but tares are weeds.. Jesus says when He returns He will gather the wheat into His barn, but the tares will be gathered to be burned.. And I do not believe that refers to afterlife torment or even refining but is metaphor for the gathering to the last war, armageddon.

So again, not a reference to a hell..

I find it interesting that the Lord said, the lof was "created for the devil and his angels" and i do believe they will come out the other end changed and reconciled..

I see things differently here, the wheat and the tares are generally taken (and translated) to be good and bad people but I don't believe that to be so. If it is so, UR is dead.

Quote from: CST on October 25, 2018, 11:49:04 AM
I see things differently here, the wheat and the tares are generally taken (and translated) to be good and bad people but I don't believe that to be so. If it is so, UR is dead.

Only if one assumes the tares are gathered to hell.. I believe the tares are gathered to Armageddon the final war and battle, depicted / prophesied.

Revelation 16:14-16
14 For they are spirits of demons, performing signs, which go out to the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

15 "Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is he who watches, and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame."

16 And they gathered them together to the place called in Hebrew, Armageddon.

Not really, tares plus fire equals nothing left of tares to save.

 :Chinscratch: I have to ask what you think the parables of Jesus are..

This one of course is in Matthew 13.. What do you think it means?  :gsmile:

24 Another simile he set before them, saying: `The reign of the heavens was likened to a man sowing good seed in his field,

25 and, while men are sleeping, his enemy came and sowed darnel (tares) in the midst of the wheat, and went away,

26 and when the herb sprang up, and yielded fruit, then appeared also the darnel.

27 `And the servants of the householder, having come near, said to him, Sir, good seed didst thou not sow in thy field? whence then hath it the darnel?

28 And he saith to them, A man, an enemy, did this; and the servants said to him, Wilt thou, then, [that] having gone away we may gather it up?

29 `And he said, No, lest -- gathering up the darnel -- ye root up with it the wheat,

30 suffer both to grow together till the harvest, and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather up first the darnel, and bind it in bundles, to burn it, and the wheat gather up into my storehouse.'

Note: this is not wheat and chaff.. chaff is part of the wheat..

my opinion and speculation is -

Two ages are alluded to and outlined in the later chapters of the Book of Revelation. The millennium, into which all believers are resurrected. And the judgment (age) into which the rest of mankind (whom God loves) are raised.

"All the ends of the Earth will remember and turn to the LORD. And all families will worship before Him" Psalm 22:27.

"Every knee shall bow and every tongue will wholeheartedly confess, Jesus is Lord" (according to the original Greek, Philippians 2:10,11, and it shall be "to the glory of God".

"God is love" and "love never (ever) fails" 1 John 4:8 and 1 Corinthians 13:8.

"Behold I make all things new.. as through Adam all die, all will live through Jesus, but each in their own order, Christ the firstfruits, then those that are His at His coming ...then comes "the end" when He submits the kingdom to the Father.. that God may be all in all" 1 Corinthians 15:22-28

"The kingdom is like leaven which a woman took and worked in three loaves, until all-is-leavened" Matthew 13:33; 1 Cor.15:22-28?


The "Day of The LORD" comes suddenly.. The day of the LORD (most commentaries agree) is not the return of Jesus, which occurs within that day..

my opinion - included is Mt 24:28-31 and Rev 20:5 "raised after the 1000 years.."
- "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall be seen.. ..the Son of man coming on the clouds.. and He will send out His angels to gather His elect from the four winds of Earth" - His wheat into His barn. (The tares having been gathered to Armageddon? And will be "raised after the thousand years"/i.e., after the millennium along with all the rest of mankind not yet reconciled to God. The chaff of their character to be winnowed, as believers were, that they become wheat as an offering to God at "the end" when He makes all things new and will now "tabernacle with mankind upon Earth made new. And there shall be no more death, nor pain, tears, or sorrow.." Mt.24:28-31; Rev.21:1-5.

"The bear will graze with the cow, the lion will eat straw like the ox" Isaiah 11:7.

The Pattern of the Day of the LORD which includes the Long Second Advent Of Jesus:

(from) Trumpets (the7,including the last, that are written of in the Book of Rev.) - 10days/1000years later - Day Of Atonement - 5days/500years later - Tabernacles/God is all, in all.

Revelation providing the outline of two ages, plus Daniel 12:2 - `And the multitude of those sleeping in the dust of the ground do awake, some to life age-during, and some to reproaches -- to abhorrence age-during.

Rev. 20:6 - 6 Happy and holy [is] he who is having part in the first rising again; over these the second death hath not authority, but they shall be priests of God and of the Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. 5 and the rest of the dead did not live again till the thousand years may be finished;

We have to put the verses together..

Jesus said, John 5:29, and they shall come forth; those who did the good things to a rising again of life, and those who practised the evil things to a rising again of judgment.

Two literal resurrections, and I think 2 ages, the millennium and day of atonement. To me obvious and unavoidable, lol. :gsmile:

Quote from: marie glen on October 26, 2018, 09:01:26 PM
:Chinscratch: I have to ask what you think the parables of Jesus are..

This one of course is in Matthew 13.. What do you think it means?  :gsmile:

24 Another simile he set before them, saying: `The reign of the heavens was likened to a man sowing good seed in his field,

25 and, while men are sleeping, his enemy came and sowed darnel (tares) in the midst of the wheat, and went away,

26 and when the herb sprang up, and yielded fruit, then appeared also the darnel.

27 `And the servants of the householder, having come near, said to him, Sir, good seed didst thou not sow in thy field? whence then hath it the darnel?

28 And he saith to them, A man, an enemy, did this; and the servants said to him, Wilt thou, then, [that] having gone away we may gather it up?

29 `And he said, No, lest -- gathering up the darnel -- ye root up with it the wheat,

30 suffer both to grow together till the harvest, and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather up first the darnel, and bind it in bundles, to burn it, and the wheat gather up into my storehouse.'

Note: this is not wheat and chaff.. chaff is part of the wheat..

Yes, I'm aware it's not the wheat and the chaff you ask me to explain what I think it means but first  have to remind you what Jesus says it means according to the text of the Bible otherwise I'm speculating outside context:

"Then having let away the multitudes, Jesus came to the house, and his disciples came near to him, saying, 'Explain to us the simile of the darnel of the field.'"
"And he answering said to them, 'He who is sowing the good seed is the Son of Man, and the field is the world, and the good seed, these are the sons of the reign, and the darnel are the sons of the evil one, and the enemy who sowed them is the devil, and the harvest is a full end of the age, and the reapers are messengers."
"'As, then, the darnel is gathered up, and is burned with fire, so shall it be in the full end of this age, the Son of Man shall send forth his messengers, and they shall gather up out of his kingdom all the stumbling-blocks, and those doing the unlawlessness, and shall cast them to the furnace of the fire; there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of the teeth. 'Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the reign of their Father. He who is having ears to hear -- let him hear." (Matthew 13:36-43)

Now, generally, when people read this parable, they see the terms 'sons of the reign' and 'sons of the evil one' they think it means 'good people' who serve God, and 'evil people' who serve Satan. If this is true they UR is dead. the evil people who are the darnel, the tares, are thrown into the fire where they become ash, which is their end for always. There is no provision to turn them into wheat or better tares and nor would it be reasonable to expect one; that's not how the parables work.

Of course I don't believe this, if true it supports Calvinism to an abhorrent degree, the tares are planted by the devil and God has nothing to do with them. He has no obligation to them and they perpetually remain tares which they can never do anything about. They're born, they live their evil life, they die and go to Hell forever: it is an immutable course. Again, I don't believe that.

Evil and Good are in a state of flux in the world, you take some evil away, and some good goes away too. These days the people of the world seem particularly self-righteous about their beliefs, always wanting to destroy any historic symbols of things they now consider abhorrent. Attitudes of the past that have no place in the present so they just erase them from the present. These are the wheat and the tares.

The parable teaches that removing the evil somehow removes the good with it, because people are in this binary Good or Evil state where you can just say which is which for all time. Opposition to evil produces good things, some good things do exist because there is evil in the world. It's a strange concept but I hold that that is what the parable means. If all that was required was for God to kill all the evil people He could do it easily and immediately leaving only the good one, but it doesn't work like that. What the parable teaches is that when the time comes God will removes and destroy, all causes of evil in the world leaving only good the destroyed causes are the tares and they're gone for good.

Notice at the end of His explanation of the parable Jesus states that, "He who is having ears to hear - let him hear." Which would seem to imply that even the explanation of the parable is some sort of parable.

That's how I believe the parable is meant to be read.

Quote from: CST on October 29, 2018, 01:30:19 PM

Quote from: marie glen on October 26, 2018, 09:01:26 PM
:Chinscratch: I have to ask what you think the parables of Jesus are..

This one of course is in Matthew 13.. What do you think it means?  :gsmile:

24 Another simile he set before them, saying: `The reign of the heavens was likened to a man sowing good seed in his field,

25 and, while men are sleeping, his enemy came and sowed darnel (tares) in the midst of the wheat, and went away,

26 and when the herb sprang up, and yielded fruit, then appeared also the darnel.

27 `And the servants of the householder, having come near, said to him, Sir, good seed didst thou not sow in thy field? whence then hath it the darnel?

28 And he saith to them, A man, an enemy, did this; and the servants said to him, Wilt thou, then, [that] having gone away we may gather it up?

29 `And he said, No, lest -- gathering up the darnel -- ye root up with it the wheat,

30 suffer both to grow together till the harvest, and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather up first the darnel, and bind it in bundles, to burn it, and the wheat gather up into my storehouse.'

Note: this is not wheat and chaff.. chaff is part of the wheat..

Yes, I'm aware it's not the wheat and the chaff you ask me to explain what I think it means but first  have to remind you what Jesus says it means according to the text of the Bible otherwise I'm speculating outside context:

"Then having let away the multitudes, Jesus came to the house, and his disciples came near to him, saying, 'Explain to us the simile of the darnel of the field.'"
"And he answering said to them, 'He who is sowing the good seed is the Son of Man, and the field is the world, and the good seed, these are the sons of the reign, and the darnel are the sons of the evil one, and the enemy who sowed them is the devil, and the harvest is a full end of the age, and the reapers are messengers."
"'As, then, the darnel is gathered up, and is burned with fire, so shall it be in the full end of this age, the Son of Man shall send forth his messengers, and they shall gather up out of his kingdom all the stumbling-blocks, and those doing the unlawlessness, and shall cast them to the furnace of the fire; there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of the teeth. 'Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the reign of their Father. He who is having ears to hear -- let him hear." (Matthew 13:36-43)

What age?
This age.

Who was he talking to?
A multitude of Jews, and the privately to his disciples, also Jews

What age was it at the time?
The age of the law.

So when will this happen?
At the end of this age, the age of the law.

What age are we in now?
The age of grace.

Quote from: CST on October 26, 2018, 07:28:57 PM
Not really, tares plus fire equals nothing left of tares to save.

Sure there is: when the tares are transformed into ash, the ash becomes part of the ground out of which more wheat can grow ..... for out of the darkness the light will shine

In my opinion: in His kingdom, Nothing is wasted

Quote from: jugghead on October 29, 2018, 03:22:47 PM

Quote from: CST on October 26, 2018, 07:28:57 PM
Not really, tares plus fire equals nothing left of tares to save.

Sure there is: when the tares are transformed into ash, the ash becomes part of the ground out of which more wheat can grow ..... for out of the darkness the light will shine

In my opinion: in His kingdom, Nothing is wasted

Joh 12:24  Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit. 
Joh 12:25  He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal. 

QuoteWho was he talking to?
A multitude of Jews, and the privately to his disciples, also Jews

Rom 2:28  For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: 
Rom 2:29  But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God. 

Col 2:11  In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: 
Col 2:12  Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. 

I think this would be who it would be talking to, those circumcised in Spirit, cutting off of the flesh WITHOUT HANDS, and not in a physical sense. Or else the entire Bible would basically only be given to those a Jew in a physical sense and not Spiritually.

QuoteSo when will this happen?
At the end of this age, the age of the law.

Oh, and if you were to say that this parable was only applicable to that certain period of time, I think that would be saying that the seed(which is Christ) would no longer be sown in people. Which is absurd, and would say no one can become a Christian anymore and receive Him. And the problem that it happens only to physical Jews, which I addressed above.

"He who is having ears to hear -- let him hear."

Quote from: CST on October 29, 2018, 01:30:19 PM
Of course I don't believe this, if true it supports Calvinism to an abhorrent degree, the tares are planted by the devil and God has nothing to do with them. He has no obligation to them and they perpetually remain tares which they can never do anything about. They're born, they live their evil life, they die and go to Hell forever: it is an immutable course. Again, I don't believe that.

What you're referring to would be the Et interpretation.. which I know I never wrote..

Quote
Evil and Good are in a state of flux in the world you take some evil away, and some good goes away too. These days the people of the world seem particularly self-righteous about their beliefs, always wanting to destroy any historic symbols of things they now consider abhorrent. Attitudes of the past that have no place in the present so they just erase them from the present. These are the wheat and the tares.

That is interesting.. Even though I believe it can be read that way, even as applying to our own psyche even, which is where a lot of metaphor seems to be seen as belonging.. Except the good away with the bad doesn't make a lot of sense in that aspect :laughing7:

I believe good and evil are unchanging constants.. but as to the amounts which I'm assuming is what you mean, in the world.. it's my belief there's lots, but to me, there seems to be the sense of both growing and maturing in the world (toward harvest of both).. which I would - if thinking in metaphor of metaphor? - call wheat and tares.

Quote
Which would seem to imply that even the explanation of the parable is some sort of parable.

You're right! I believe "the furnace of fire" is metaphor for Armageddon. And any weeping, etc will be done on Judgment Day/Age, not in a fictional 'hell'. Which should be obvious even to Et believers. I mean 'hell'/sentence before trial? Puhlease "He shall judge righteously"!

I believe children of the kingdom are believers, but we were all children of the enemy (tares) before that. And I believe those not saved and reconciled during this life, will be so at the Judgment, in the very same ways we all were.. - that's my belief.

No lake of fire until after age of judgment (is my belief) then will be the devil and his angels (oh dear, forget I said that) that go there, for an age/aion/duration.. for it was "made for them" - (the beast (big) and false prophet are already there at that time, but they, I believe are institutions active at the time of Jesus' (physical) return, and are not humans, but world government and the theory of evolution, 2nd death, in their case annihilation :cloud9: ).

It is my belief no humans go to Lof.

That all repentance, weeping.. any gnashing of teeth and outer darkness away from the feast of God's full greatness, and reconciliation, all occurs on Judgment Day/Age. (The setting for the parable/simile of Lazarus and the rich man.)

And that on that day/age, the tares having now too, become wheat, just like we did, will also - like we have and do - experience the harrowing or whatever it's called when you throw the wheat around so the chaff blows away.. upon the winds..


So on the one hand we have Armageddon. On the other, we have "all the ends of Earth will remember and turn to the LORD and all families of the nations will worship before Him" - when? Well, in every generation, many families of the nation are "asleep in the dust of Earth" Dan.12:2.

So, it must occur at the Judgment.. because it cannot be during the millennium - a literal 1000 years - because again, "the rest of the dead come not back to life until the thousand years are ended" (then, is Judgment Day).

And I have to assume it would be before the time when Jesus submits the kingdom to the Father that He may be all in all-when He has made all things new, literally.. (Rev 21:1-5).

So - if the "wheat/children of the kingdom are gathered into His barn when He returns...

And, "so shall it be in the full end of this age, the Son of Man shall send forth his messengers, and they shall gather up out of his kingdom all the stumbling-blocks, and those doing the unlawlessness, and shall cast them to the furnace of the fire See, you're right! It is metaphor within metaphor! :mshock: - metaphor for Armageddon (imo, but if it's at His return, what else could it be?) But definitely NOT et's 'hell'. :faint:
  :gsmile:

Quote from: MusicLover123 on October 29, 2018, 07:56:46 PM

Quote from: jugghead on October 29, 2018, 03:22:47 PM

Quote from: CST on October 26, 2018, 07:28:57 PM
Not really, tares plus fire equals nothing left of tares to save.

Sure there is: when the tares are transformed into ash, the ash becomes part of the ground out of which more wheat can grow ..... for out of the darkness the light will shine

In my opinion: in His kingdom, Nothing is wasted

Joh 12:24  Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.
Joh 12:25  He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.

Very true. :iagree: And, also, we all used to be tares. As the parable says the tares are children of the enemy, which Paul says we all were before we believed.. I believe upon Judgment Day/Age(imo) like Day of Atonement was annually for Israel, all will repent and be reconciled during that day/age, and enter God's sabbath and feast rest.. Once they believe, they become wheat like we did and will go through the process like we do of having the chaff removed.. shaken away..

Quote from: GodIsLove on October 29, 2018, 03:15:47 PM

What age?
This age.

Who was he talking to?
A multitude of Jews, and the privately to his disciples, also Jews

What age was it at the time?
The age of the law.

So when will this happen?
At the end of this age, the age of the law.

What age are we in now?
The age of grace.

   :Chinscratch: the harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are the angels. 40 Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age. 41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather -- This last part reminds me of Matthew 24

29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

And also reminds me of Revelation 14,

14 Then I looked, and behold, a white cloud[/i], and on the cloud sat One like the Son of Man, having on His head a golden crown, and in His hand a sharp sickle. 15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to Him who sat on the cloud, "Thrust in Your sickle and reap, for the time has come for You to reap, for the harvest of the earth is ripe." 16 So He who sat on the cloud thrust in His sickle on the earth, and the earth was reaped.

17 Then another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, who had power over [/i]fire, and he cried with a loud cry to him who had the sharp sickle, saying, "Thrust in your sharp sickle and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth, for her grapes are fully ripe." 19 So the angel thrust his sickle into the earth and gathered the vine of the earth, and threw it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. 20 And the winepress was trampled outside the city metaphor for, I believe, Armageddon. Sickles too of course we know are metaphor..

Armageddon is not something I think God does.. but man. He comes and gathers the children of the kingdom just before Armageddon. But - rev 16:14-16 - they have to "gather" to Armageddon before it's fiery occurrence.

So it's not Et's 'hell' that this parable is referring to. Nor the weeping, etc.. which I believe again, not Et's (adopted pagan myth of) 'hell' but upon Judgment 'Day' (imo, Age, when "all ends of Earth will remember/come to their senses-the greek, and turn to the LORD, and all families of the nations will worship/rejoice :cloud9: before Him" Ps 22:27. It's this 'day' I think the parable of Lazarus and the rich man fit in, as parable, or shadow.. a simile of.)

A.D./C.E.. Though the age of law did surely completely end at 70 a.d. - many believe prophecy is one of the things which telescope.. like the advents.. sometimes the two spoken of in one breath, but quite a span of time between them.. The localized advent, His first, and His larger total, long 2nd advent which grows to encompass all.. AS I believe He returns literally and literally seen by every eye.. (whether they see it at occurrence or at great day of (review?)/Judgment).

So too with prophecy? a localized, more or less immediate fulfilment.. the prophets often seeming like this.. then it expands into a larger fulfillment at 'the end' of man's empires and rule..

Quote from: GodIsLove on October 29, 2018, 03:15:47 PM

Quote from: CST on October 29, 2018, 01:30:19 PM

Quote from: marie glen on October 26, 2018, 09:01:26 PM
:Chinscratch: I have to ask what you think the parables of Jesus are..

This one of course is in Matthew 13.. What do you think it means?  :gsmile:

24 Another simile he set before them, saying: `The reign of the heavens was likened to a man sowing good seed in his field,

25 and, while men are sleeping, his enemy came and sowed darnel (tares) in the midst of the wheat, and went away,

26 and when the herb sprang up, and yielded fruit, then appeared also the darnel.

27 `And the servants of the householder, having come near, said to him, Sir, good seed didst thou not sow in thy field? whence then hath it the darnel?

28 And he saith to them, A man, an enemy, did this; and the servants said to him, Wilt thou, then, [that] having gone away we may gather it up?

29 `And he said, No, lest -- gathering up the darnel -- ye root up with it the wheat,

30 suffer both to grow together till the harvest, and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather up first the darnel, and bind it in bundles, to burn it, and the wheat gather up into my storehouse.'

Note: this is not wheat and chaff.. chaff is part of the wheat..

Yes, I'm aware it's not the wheat and the chaff you ask me to explain what I think it means but first  have to remind you what Jesus says it means according to the text of the Bible otherwise I'm speculating outside context:

"Then having let away the multitudes, Jesus came to the house, and his disciples came near to him, saying, 'Explain to us the simile of the darnel of the field.'"
"And he answering said to them, 'He who is sowing the good seed is the Son of Man, and the field is the world, and the good seed, these are the sons of the reign, and the darnel are the sons of the evil one, and the enemy who sowed them is the devil, and the harvest is a full end of the age, and the reapers are messengers."
"'As, then, the darnel is gathered up, and is burned with fire, so shall it be in the full end of this age, the Son of Man shall send forth his messengers, and they shall gather up out of his kingdom all the stumbling-blocks, and those doing the unlawlessness, and shall cast them to the furnace of the fire; there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of the teeth. 'Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the reign of their Father. He who is having ears to hear -- let him hear." (Matthew 13:36-43)

What age?
This age.

Who was he talking to?
A multitude of Jews, and the privately to his disciples, also Jews

What age was it at the time?
The age of the law.

So when will this happen?
At the end of this age, the age of the law.

What age are we in now?
The age of grace.

I hold age to be a pretty vague term which can apply to many different periods that can overlap with each other. There's clear reason in this parable for thinking what it describes is the final and irrevocable end of evil and the end of the 'age' Jesus was describing. Otherwise what He describes is some sort of failure at that point. Clearly evil is still around so we are currently still in the age as Jesus was describing it.

Quote from: jugghead on October 29, 2018, 03:22:47 PM

Quote from: CST on October 26, 2018, 07:28:57 PM
Not really, tares plus fire equals nothing left of tares to save.

Sure there is: when the tares are transformed into ash, the ash becomes part of the ground out of which more wheat can grow ..... for out of the darkness the light will shine

In my opinion: in His kingdom, Nothing is wasted

A. That's not what the parable says, and
B. The tares do not become the new wheat. The wheat is till wheat, tares are still tares.

Quote from: MusicLover123 on October 29, 2018, 07:56:46 PM

Quote from: jugghead on October 29, 2018, 03:22:47 PM

Quote from: CST on October 26, 2018, 07:28:57 PM
Not really, tares plus fire equals nothing left of tares to save.

Sure there is: when the tares are transformed into ash, the ash becomes part of the ground out of which more wheat can grow ..... for out of the darkness the light will shine

In my opinion: in His kingdom, Nothing is wasted

Joh 12:24  Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.
Joh 12:25  He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.

Again, wheat not tares.

Quote from: MusicLover123 on October 29, 2018, 08:16:44 PM

QuoteWho was he talking to?
A multitude of Jews, and the privately to his disciples, also Jews

Rom 2:28  For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Col 2:11  In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
Col 2:12  Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

I think this would be who it would be talking to, those circumcised in Spirit, cutting off of the flesh WITHOUT HANDS, and not in a physical sense. Or else the entire Bible would basically only be given to those a Jew in a physical sense and not Spiritually.

QuoteSo when will this happen?
At the end of this age, the age of the law.

Oh, and if you were to say that this parable was only applicable to that certain period of time, I think that would be saying that the seed(which is Christ) would no longer be sown in people. Which is absurd, and would say no one can become a Christian anymore and receive Him. And the problem that it happens only to physical Jews, which I addressed above.

"He who is having ears to hear -- let him hear."

Good, yes!

Quote from: marie glen on October 29, 2018, 10:21:23 PM

Quote from: CST on October 29, 2018, 01:30:19 PM
Of course I don't believe this, if true it supports Calvinism to an abhorrent degree, the tares are planted by the devil and God has nothing to do with them. He has no obligation to them and they perpetually remain tares which they can never do anything about. They're born, they live their evil life, they die and go to Hell forever: it is an immutable course. Again, I don't believe that.

What you're referring to would be the Et interpretation.. which I know I never wrote..

Quote
Evil and Good are in a state of flux in the world you take some evil away, and some good goes away too. These days the people of the world seem particularly self-righteous about their beliefs, always wanting to destroy any historic symbols of things they now consider abhorrent. Attitudes of the past that have no place in the present so they just erase them from the present. These are the wheat and the tares.

That is interesting.. Even though I believe it can be read that way, even as applying to our own psyche even, which is where a lot of metaphor seems to be seen as belonging.. Except the good away with the bad doesn't make a lot of sense in that aspect :laughing7:

I believe good and evil are unchanging constants.. but as to the amounts which I'm assuming is what you mean, in the world.. it's my belief there's lots, but to me, there seems to be the sense of both growing and maturing in the world (toward harvest of both).. which I would - if thinking in metaphor of metaphor? - call wheat and tares.

Quote
Which would seem to imply that even the explanation of the parable is some sort of parable.

You're right! I believe "the furnace of fire" is metaphor for Armageddon. And any weeping, etc will be done on Judgment Day/Age, not in a fictional 'hell'. Which should be obvious even to Et believers. I mean 'hell'/sentence before trial? Puhlease "He shall judge righteously"!

I believe children of the kingdom are believers, but we were all children of the enemy (tares) before that. And I believe those not saved and reconciled during this life, will be so at the Judgment, in the very same ways we all were.. - that's my belief.

No lake of fire until after age of judgment (is my belief) then will be the devil and his angels (oh dear, forget I said that) that go there, for an age/aion/duration.. for it was "made for them" - (the beast (big) and false prophet are already there at that time, but they, I believe are institutions active at the time of Jesus' (physical) return, and are not humans, but world government and the theory of evolution, 2nd death, in their case annihilation :cloud9: ).

It is my belief no humans go to Lof.

That all repentance, weeping.. any gnashing of teeth and outer darkness away from the feast of God's full greatness, and reconciliation, all occurs on Judgment Day/Age. (The setting for the parable/simile of Lazarus and the rich man.)

And that on that day/age, the tares having now too, become wheat, just like we did, will also - like we have and do - experience the harrowing or whatever it's called when you throw the wheat around so the chaff blows away.. upon the winds..


So on the one hand we have Armageddon. On the other, we have "all the ends of Earth will remember and turn to the LORD and all families of the nations will worship before Him" - when? Well, in every generation, many families of the nation are "asleep in the dust of Earth" Dan.12:2.

So, it must occur at the Judgment.. because it cannot be during the millennium - a literal 1000 years - because again, "the rest of the dead come not back to life until the thousand years are ended" (then, is Judgment Day).

And I have to assume it would be before the time when Jesus submits the kingdom to the Father that He may be all in all-when He has made all things new, literally.. (Rev 21:1-5).

So - if the "wheat/children of the kingdom are gathered into His barn when He returns...

And, "so shall it be in the full end of this age, the Son of Man shall send forth his messengers, and they shall gather up out of his kingdom all the stumbling-blocks, and those doing the unlawlessness, and shall cast them to the furnace of the fire See, you're right! It is metaphor within metaphor! :mshock: - metaphor for Armageddon (imo, but if it's at His return, what else could it be?) But definitely NOT et's 'hell'. :faint:
  :gsmile:

I know you never wrote an ET interpretation but the ET (or ED) reading tends to be the one usually taken so my interpretation, which you asked for, is already addressed in response to that.

You seem to have got what I was saying, the symbols which people take against was just one example. The point is that the narrative of history is so ingrained people might want to go back in time and kill Hitler before he could appoint himself furor (a dark reading but that's the point). This might seem like a good idea and save many lives, but I can guarantee many people who have now been born won't be born and different people will be, history will unfold completely differently than as it is a a ot of things we take for granted may not happen. This is the world we have, changing major details will change a lot of other details and in killing Hitler you may even kill yourself. Again, the wheat and the tares.

Before trail?

"for because of this Christ both died and rose again, and lived again, that both of dead and of living he may be Lord. And thou, why dost thou judge thy brother? or again, thou, why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand at the tribunal of the Christ; for it hath been written, 'I live! saith the Lord -- to Me bow shall every knee, and every tongue shall confess to God;' so, then, each of us concerning himself shall give reckoning to God;" (Romans 14:9-12)

What people don't get is that God knows all, He doesn't need to trap us into explaining ourselves to Him, He knows if we're yet worth saving of not. The reckoning is called 'life' we're giving it, right now. Don't be deceived, beware!

Musiclover wrote: oh, and if you were to say that this parable was only applicable to that certain period of time, I think that would be saying that the seed(which is Christ) would no longer be sown in people. Which is absurd, and would say no one can become a Christian anymore and receive Him. And the problem that it happens only to physical Jews, which I addressed above.

You called someone stupid in another thead, now absurd.

Let's all remember that we don't all have the answers.

If we were all wrong at some point about ET, we can yet again be misinformed, and I am seeing a lot of people on Tentmaker lately with a bit of arrogance about their beliefs.

And while I quoted Musiclover, I could just have easily quoted most people posting the past few weeks.

I am going to take a break from this forum.

If I speak in the tongues[a] of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing.

Love to you all.

QuoteYou called someone stupid in another thead, now absurd.

:sigh:

Well, I probably did sound like I called that person stupid, but this time I was calling the idea absurd, not you. I apologize again, a since you seem hurt.

Just a suggestion, unless you feel led otherwise, could you please tell me in private first?

Matthew 18
15 "If your brother or sister sins, go and point out their fault, just between the two of you. If they listen to you, you have won them over.
16But if they will not listen, take one or two others along, so that 'every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.'
17If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector.
18 "Truly I tell you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.
19 "Again, truly I tell you that if two of you on earth agree about anything they ask for, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven.
20For where two or three gather in my name, there am I with them."

Quote from: CST on October 30, 2018, 01:57:10 PM
A. That's not what the parable says, and
B. The tares do not become the new wheat. The wheat is till wheat, tares are still tares.

Um.. I was taking into consideration other verses..

Quote
You seem to have got what I was saying, the symbols which people take against was just one example. The point is that the narrative of history is so ingrained people might want to go back in time and kill Hitler before he could appoint himself furor (a dark reading but that's the point). This might seem like a good idea and save many lives, but I can guarantee many people who have now been born won't be born and different people will be, history will unfold completely differently than as it is a a ot of things we take for granted may not happen. This is the world we have, changing major details will change a lot of other details and in killing Hitler you may even kill yourself. Again, the wheat and the tares.

Hmmm, I have no idea what this is from.. not a conversation with me..

Quote
Before trial?

"for because of this Christ both died and rose again, and lived again, that both of dead and of living he may be Lord. And thou, why dost thou judge thy brother? or again, thou, why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand at the tribunal of the Christ; for it hath been written, 'I live! saith the Lord -- to Me bow shall every knee, and every tongue shall confess to God;' so, then, each of us concerning himself shall give reckoning to God;" (Romans 14:9-12)

What people don't get is that God knows all, He doesn't need to trap us into explaining ourselves to Him, He knows if we're yet worth saving of not. The reckoning is called 'life' we're giving it, right now. Don't be deceived, beware!

What I think is that at "the Judgment" - why would God waste such a thoroughly perfect opportunity to doubly pound home His message? That He is life.

Wander away? Not a smart move..

Why waste all that history? all the things people suffered.. Aren't we going to review all that? It would be a shame if it's just forfotten and written up as not important.. Somehow Et got into us the idea of total one on one judgment and review of history.. well, I think sure that happens and will happen too.. "Have the people sit in groups of 50 or a 100, Jesus said" and at Mt Sinai, the whole nation was addressed... together.

Away from Him.. can only be apocalypse.. individual and, or collective. That seems extremely visible to me. Sorry.. I'm not about to change my mind.. Because it's so plain, obvious and visible to me.. Sometimes, CST, I think you are just kind of "contrary". Now I mean that in a friendly way!

Doesn't another parable speak of the difference between things built on The Rock/Truth and things built on sand?

Literal Bible, to me, fits.. the pieces fit. If not literal, but myth or only about what goes on in the psyche.. individual or collective.. I think it's bigger than that.. I guess I feel you can have the metaphor alongside or to complement the literal. But to me it doesn't work vice versa, that is the myth or metaphor without literal. If it can be read as literal, I read it as literal. And considering the attributes of God that's a pretty wide.. bunch of possibility..

Usually, I try to agree with folks, and maybe add something.. otherwise it can seem confrontational and turns people away. So I hope I haven't done that in any way.. I find no difficulty in exchanging ideas and views about God's Word.. And no one has to agree with me.. usually i won't continue in a thread this long.. But frankly I'm a bit shocked with your beliefs.. And I suppose you are with mine.. :Peace2: :girlheart:

Quote from: CST on October 30, 2018, 01:57:10 PM
A. That's not what the parable says, and
B. The tares do not become the new wheat. The wheat is till wheat, tares are still tares.

I had a thought.. to clarify..


In the explanation of the parable Jesus says "38 The field is the world. The good seeds are the sons of the kingdom. But the tares are the sons of the wicked one." Mt 13

And Paul says we were all children of the wicked one. Until born again of the seed of Christ..

So we were all tares (noxious weeds. :laughing7: ) But now as believers, we are wheat.

What is He is saying? "And His disciples came to Him, saying, “Explain to us the parable of the tares of the field.”

37 He answered and said to them: “He who sows the good seed is the Son of Man. 38 The field is the world, the good seeds are the sons of the kingdom. But the tares are the sons of the wicked one. 39 The enemy who sowed them is the devil, the harvest is the end of the age. And the reapers are the angels. 40 Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age." .....But gather the wheat into my barn

Which 70 a.d. (I think) was a microcosm and local version of.. :2c:

"sons of the kingdom" - sons is G5207 --
huios: a son
Definition: a son
Usage: a son, descendent

"41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, 42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear!"


"29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." Mt 24

....gather the wheat into My barn.. and gather the tares where? Clue: Definitely is not hell nor any after life torment - that's the point I'm trying to make -  for this is at the end of this age, 70a.d. and later, His return, I have to think considering all verses - not at end of Judgment Day which does not occur until 1000 years after Jesus' return. "The rest of the dead live not again until the thousand years are ended." (Rev. 20:5)
:Peace2:

Quote from: marie glen on October 31, 2018, 12:55:32 AM

Quote from: CST on October 30, 2018, 01:57:10 PM
A. That's not what the parable says, and
B. The tares do not become the new wheat. The wheat is till wheat, tares are still tares.

Um.. I was taking into consideration other verses..

Quote
You seem to have got what I was saying, the symbols which people take against was just one example. The point is that the narrative of history is so ingrained people might want to go back in time and kill Hitler before he could appoint himself furor (a dark reading but that's the point). This might seem like a good idea and save many lives, but I can guarantee many people who have now been born won't be born and different people will be, history will unfold completely differently than as it is a a ot of things we take for granted may not happen. This is the world we have, changing major details will change a lot of other details and in killing Hitler you may even kill yourself. Again, the wheat and the tares.

Hmmm, I have no idea what this is from.. not a conversation with me..

Quote
Before trial?

"for because of this Christ both died and rose again, and lived again, that both of dead and of living he may be Lord. And thou, why dost thou judge thy brother? or again, thou, why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand at the tribunal of the Christ; for it hath been written, 'I live! saith the Lord -- to Me bow shall every knee, and every tongue shall confess to God;' so, then, each of us concerning himself shall give reckoning to God;" (Romans 14:9-12)

What people don't get is that God knows all, He doesn't need to trap us into explaining ourselves to Him, He knows if we're yet worth saving of not. The reckoning is called 'life' we're giving it, right now. Don't be deceived, beware!

What I think is that at "the Judgment" - why would God waste such a thoroughly perfect opportunity to doubly pound home His message? That He is life.

Wander away? Not a smart move..

Why waste all that history? all the things people suffered.. Aren't we going to review all that? It would be a shame if it's just forfotten and written up as not important.. Somehow Et got into us the idea of total one on one judgment and review of history.. well, I think sure that happens and will happen too.. "Have the people sit in groups of 50 or a 100, Jesus said" and at Mt Sinai, the whole nation was addressed... together.

Away from Him.. can only be apocalypse.. individual and, or collective. That seems extremely visible to me. Sorry.. I'm not about to change my mind.. Because it's so plain, obvious and visible to me.. Sometimes, CST, I think you are just kind of "contrary". Now I mean that in a friendly way!

Doesn't another parable speak of the difference between things built on The Rock/Truth and things built on sand?

Literal Bible, to me, fits.. the pieces fit. If not literal, but myth or only about what goes on in the psyche.. individual or collective.. I think it's bigger than that.. I guess I feel you can have the metaphor alongside or to complement the literal. But to me it doesn't work vice versa, that is the myth or metaphor without literal. If it can be read as literal, I read it as literal. And considering the attributes of God that's a pretty wide.. bunch of possibility..

Usually, I try to agree with folks, and maybe add something.. otherwise it can seem confrontational and turns people away. So I hope I haven't done that in any way.. I find no difficulty in exchanging ideas and views about God's Word.. And no one has to agree with me.. usually i won't continue in a thread this long.. But frankly I'm a bit shocked with your beliefs.. And I suppose you are with mine.. :Peace2: :girlheart:

Other verses? Always worth doing but also highly complicated, it can be hard to know which verses apply especially as you might be inclined to apply the verses that support the conclusion you have already come to about the Bible, the Bible is challenging like that.

You said on October 29, 2018, 11:21:23 PM in the section beginning, 'This is interesting...' things that suggested you understood my point. Otherwise I have no idea what you said so you, quite understandably, don't understand me now.

You're already on record as talking about the big day of review which is hardly likely to be a literal 24 hour day. God couldn't get through all the significant events Adam's life in one day without significant editing. If God asks him (remembering I think this story is a metaphor but this works for the point) why he ate from the Tree of Knowledge again will he give the same answer he did before. What other sins will he struggle to defend when God asks about them? Does it include all his private thoughts that other people don't know about but will be hurt if they find out, until it's their turn to go through the same process? Logically it just sounds like a very long piece of grandstanding on the part of God which can serve only to utterly embarrass everyone else. I'm not sure anyone could survive in any way we could just end up falling out.

And, yes, Glenda, I also suspect I may be 'contrary' or I may be just losing the thread, however Jesus was also contrary and was put to death for being contrary. I'm not entirely convinced I'm contrary like Jesus, that seems unlikely.

That said there are many good things in what you are saying and a parable does speak of things being built on The Rock/Truth but, of course, you have to immediately remember that 'Rock' is not literal and in fact it refers to Jesus. Jesus is that rock.

How many people will we be reviewed in front of? The Bible to me implies everyone which is why the idea bothers me, exposing wicked people in front of equally wicked people seems pointless. I am definitely opposed too years of history being sted. I'm just not sure it's morally right that that is best expressed in gathering everyone together and giving them an extended lecture on how bad everything was and how much responsibility they all bear for the fact.

I may currently not be expressing by beliefs at their best, I'm trying to make cases in a lot of threads simultaneously at the same time with limited time. Your beliefs aren't that surprising, they seem like a good expression of classical Christian positions. The most shocking thing about them is that they're UR which Isn't all that shocking here.

Quote from: CST on November 01, 2018, 05:11:32 PM

You're already on record as talking about the big day of review which is hardly likely to be a literal 24 hour day. God couldn't get through all the significant events Adam's life in one day without significant editing. If God asks him (remembering I think this story is a metaphor but this works for the point) why he ate from the Tree of Knowledge again will he give the same answer he did before. What other sins will he struggle to defend when God asks about them? Does it include all his private thoughts that other people don't know about but will be hurt if they find out, until it's their turn to go through the same process? Logically it just sounds like a very long piece of grandstanding on the part of God which can serve only to utterly embarrass everyone else. I'm not sure anyone could survive in any way we could just end up falling out.

Oh.. you're thinking of individual judgment - i believe that occurs in the heart. I'm talking about a collective day like Israel's Day of Atonement of Lev 23.. --> A collective review of history.

Quote
And, yes, Glenda, I also suspect I may be 'contrary' or I may be just losing the thread, however Jesus was also contrary and was put to death for being contrary. I'm not entirely convinced I'm contrary like Jesus, that seems unlikely.

That said there are many good things in what you are saying and a parable does speak of things being built on The Rock/Truth but, of course, you have to immediately remember that 'Rock' is not literal and in fact it refers to Jesus. Jesus is that rock.

And Truth.. life must (ultimately) be built on truth I believe.

Quote
I may currently not be expressing by beliefs at their best, I'm trying to make cases in a lot of threads simultaneously at the same time with limited time.

   :gsmile: me too.

Quote
Your beliefs aren't that surprising, they seem like a good expression of classical Christian positions. The most shocking thing about them is that they're UR which Isn't all that shocking here.

Really? Judgement Day as a great day of atonement, reconciliation and jubilee? Of course"asleep in the grave" (for example) is what I see on black and white movies :smile: ..but they kind of believe the going to heaven bit..
:Peace2: later!

Quote from: marie glen on November 02, 2018, 02:08:36 AM

Quote from: CST on November 01, 2018, 05:11:32 PM

You're already on record as talking about the big day of review which is hardly likely to be a literal 24 hour day. God couldn't get through all the significant events Adam's life in one day without significant editing. If God asks him (remembering I think this story is a metaphor but this works for the point) why he ate from the Tree of Knowledge again will he give the same answer he did before. What other sins will he struggle to defend when God asks about them? Does it include all his private thoughts that other people don't know about but will be hurt if they find out, until it's their turn to go through the same process? Logically it just sounds like a very long piece of grandstanding on the part of God which can serve only to utterly embarrass everyone else. I'm not sure anyone could survive in any way we could just end up falling out.

Oh.. you're thinking of individual judgment - i believe that occurs in the heart. I'm talking about a collective day like Israel's Day of Atonement of Lev 23.. --> A collective review of history.

Quote
And, yes, Glenda, I also suspect I may be 'contrary' or I may be just losing the thread, however Jesus was also contrary and was put to death for being contrary. I'm not entirely convinced I'm contrary like Jesus, that seems unlikely.

That said there are many good things in what you are saying and a parable does speak of things being built on The Rock/Truth but, of course, you have to immediately remember that 'Rock' is not literal and in fact it refers to Jesus. Jesus is that rock.

And Truth.. life must (ultimately) be built on truth I believe.

Quote
I may currently not be expressing by beliefs at their best, I'm trying to make cases in a lot of threads simultaneously at the same time with limited time.

   :gsmile: me too.

Quote
Your beliefs aren't that surprising, they seem like a good expression of classical Christian positions. The most shocking thing about them is that they're UR which Isn't all that shocking here.

Really? Judgement Day as a great day of atonement, reconciliation and jubilee? Of course"asleep in the grave" (for example) is what I see on black and white movies :smile: ..but they kind of believe the going to heaven bit..
:Peace2: later!

Individual judgement sounds more fitting when thinking about individual salvation, but I lost the vast majority of my thought processes in all these discussions now.

'Life must be built on Truth, ' quite so I very much believe so and expect it to be why I am contrary, much of the world in which we live is not built on Truth ao when I hear important falsehoods being banded around as the Truth I often feel that it is very important to challenge them strongly and swiftly. Of course I may be incorrect and whether I am or not makes me 'contrary' to the general line of thought I'm challenging and etiquette that is often set up to protect it by saying 'You can't challenge that, we've all decided it's true and that's that.'

Hooray, we are also in agreement.

For a UR proponent that is reasonable, and not surprising as things can't end up otherwise. But, yes, sometimes it's surprising in my head because a lot of my objections to the idea are due to a view I formed when there was still an ET idea in my head.

I know there's some sort of judgement but the end of Revelation is a bit vague, books opened people judged according to their works but only saved if their name is in the book of life. Are those works good and bad or are they just bad? People have different views on this.

I myself would say they are good works, no bad, for love keeps no record of wrongs  :2c:

Quote from: CST on November 02, 2018, 12:13:48 PM

I know there's some sort of judgement but the end of Revelation is a bit vague, books opened people judged according to their works but only saved if their name is in the book of life. Are those works good and bad or are they just bad? People have different views on this.

Well, so you have an idea of what it is I often strongly try to communicate, believing it to be important, u.r. supporting truth..

Jesus' return -
His millennium rule of 1000 years and after which -
the resurrection of all those not yet saved - begins "Day of Atonement"(?)
                           lasting roughly 500 years^{due to the pattern of days between the fall holy days of Lev 23}

hence, upon 'Day' of Atonement-(The Judgment) those not yet saved, will experience what we have experienced / i.e. they will repent and be reconciled..

All upon a back drop of realizing and reviewing all of history as the documentary of the wrong way.. That's what I see in that part of Revelation. And I know, I'm right about the other parts of Rev - my only ? being about the 2 witnesses..

Besides, His first advent did fulfill perfectly the Spring Holy Days.. I'd love to see the gospel move along from the judgment being thought a simply dumping folks enmasse into lof to a logical part of God's redeeming (and educating/'programming'?) plan..

It's easy.. lof I believe occurs just as it does now, for us. "Our God is a consuming fire".. If God chooses who believes, and "hardens whom He will" why would their redemption experience be any more frightening than any of ours?  Despots, etc, may gnash their teeth a little more than others.. but Jesus will draw all.. And we know that cannot happen this side of life, as not all are even alive..

If I believed in the state of death for the unsaved who have died, as a state of living, I'd believe they become converted while dead. Because that would be the most logical thing. And by time "the judgment" they would surely "believe" and thus are enrolled in the book of life..

This way of thinking dawned on me one day during prayerful study.. the idea came to mind of what would I think if I were not saved, but then I experienced rising from my grave, and then I witness a review of history at "the judgment".. First thing I thought was, um.. after all that, who's not going to "believe"? And isn't that what it takes to have one's name written in the Book of Life?

After reading the bible for 40 years, including the book of revelation, etc.. And having prayed always for understanding.. when this dawned upon me - how it would be to experience rising after death, still in my sins, so still mortal.. or again mortal :laughing7:

Thinking of it from that point of view and knowing what the scriptures say about the millennium, both in Rev and in the prophets and also Jesus' words.. the thoughts easily settled down into this pattern - of the Fall Holy Days and Rev 20 & 21.

Both being from Trumpets --> -- > to Tabernacles.  (Rev 21:3 KJ or YLT)

"books opened".. is symbol and metaphor, for judgment, discernment, review? :gsmile:

I am going to guess that all our names are written in the Book of Life.
God is the Alpha and the Omega. He knew all that would happen, before the world began.
And, if we on the Tentmaker are correct, He knows that we are all going to go home, with Him, for eternity.

Whether we are the first fruits or the last........

Amen.

D.

Quote from: jugghead on November 03, 2018, 03:41:03 PM
I myself would say they are good works, no bad, for love keeps no record of wrongs  :2c:

You'd think and yet why would their names not be found in the Book of Life. A lot of people thing they're only bad works because a. all good works are wrought in Jesus and b. it says that the dead are judged according to their works and it isn't thought the 'dead' would have a good deed to their name.

Quote from: marie glen on November 04, 2018, 09:17:41 PM

Quote from: CST on November 02, 2018, 12:13:48 PM

I know there's some sort of judgement but the end of Revelation is a bit vague, books opened people judged according to their works but only saved if their name is in the book of life. Are those works good and bad or are they just bad? People have different views on this.

Well, so you have an idea of what it is I often strongly try to communicate, believing it to be important, u.r. supporting truth..

Jesus' return -
His millennium rule of 1000 years and after which -
the resurrection of all those not yet saved - begins "Day of Atonement"(?)
                           lasting roughly 500 years^{due to the pattern of days between the fall holy days of Lev 23}

hence, upon 'Day' of Atonement-(The Judgment) those not yet saved, will experience what we have experienced / i.e. they will repent and be reconciled..

All upon a back drop of realizing and reviewing all of history as the documentary of the wrong way.. That's what I see in that part of Revelation. And I know, I'm right about the other parts of Rev - my only ? being about the 2 witnesses..

Besides, His first advent did fulfill perfectly the Spring Holy Days.. I'd love to see the gospel move along from the judgment being thought a simply dumping folks enmasse into lof to a logical part of God's redeeming (and educating/'programming'?) plan..

It's easy.. lof I believe occurs just as it does now, for us. "Our God is a consuming fire".. If God chooses who believes, and "hardens whom He will" why would their redemption experience be any more frightening than any of ours?  Despots, etc, may gnash their teeth a little more than others.. but Jesus will draw all.. And we know that cannot happen this side of life, as not all are even alive..

If I believed in the state of death for the unsaved who have died, as a state of living, I'd believe they become converted while dead. Because that would be the most logical thing. And by time "the judgment" they would surely "believe" and thus are enrolled in the book of life..

This way of thinking dawned on me one day during prayerful study.. the idea came to mind of what would I think if I were not saved, but then I experienced rising from my grave, and then I witness a review of history at "the judgment".. First thing I thought was, um.. after all that, who's not going to "believe"? And isn't that what it takes to have one's name written in the Book of Life?

After reading the bible for 40 years, including the book of revelation, etc.. And having prayed always for understanding.. when this dawned upon me - how it would be to experience rising after death, still in my sins, so still mortal.. or again mortal :laughing7:

Thinking of it from that point of view and knowing what the scriptures say about the millennium, both in Rev and in the prophets and also Jesus' words.. the thoughts easily settled down into this pattern - of the Fall Holy Days and Rev 20 & 21.

Both being from Trumpets --> -- > to Tabernacles.  (Rev 21:3 KJ or YLT)

"books opened".. is symbol and metaphor, for judgment, discernment, review? :gsmile:

Essentially, but I struggle with the concept of The Last Judgement. The last Judgement is an ET idea, it is the idea that God can gather everyone together on one day and then make a final and irrevocable decision about their fate. People who go the Hell, go to Hell to forever because the decision is final and that is where they belong, God doesn't make it lightly. I don't believe that I don't think judgement works that way. The Bible does suggest God has set apart a time to review His creation on mass but I don't believe it suggests that's not a revisable decision, that there won't be other judgements afterwards the Bible also suggests there will be, this makes it very hard to speculate about what the great judgement will actually look like or what its scope will be.

You ask who is not going to believe, but what do you thinking 'believing' means? What do you think 'faith' means? Modern militant materialists think it is the very essence of folly. That you choose to believe something stupid when there is no evidence to support it at all. They believe that it is stupid to believe God exists when there is no evidence He does, this position, to them, kills off the concept of faith.

They're wrong, however, it isn't and it doesn't. God existence isn't the point here it's His promises that are the point, Adam and Even didn't fall because they didn't believe God existed, they fell because they didn't believe what God told them. That's the story. Who's not going to believe? If your talking about the existence of God nobody, He's right in front of us, but faith is fidelity. It's about believing what God tells us about Himself and responding accordingly, and people have a lot of trouble with that. It's in our nature.

Quote from: Dandelion on November 04, 2018, 11:03:31 PM
I am going to guess that all our names are written in the Book of Life.
God is the Alpha and the Omega. He knew all that would happen, before the world began.
And, if we on the Tentmaker are correct, He knows that we are all going to go home, with Him, for eternity.

Whether we are the first fruits or the last........

Amen.

D.

On the one hand it sounds reasonable that everyone's name will be enrolled yet at the same time it doesn't sound logical. Why would God suggest that some names wouldn't be found if in fact all would be. I have various answer to this but I not one hundred percent satisfied with any of them.

What bothers me the most is that the Book of Life, according to the Revelation, appears to be the book bound with the seven seals. But that's a weird symbol, it implies that the content of the book is immutable, no names can be added or removed, until the Crucifixion. I'm not quite sure what that means but it's a strange sort of metaphor. The seals seem to be their so other the lamb that was slain is worthy of open the Book of Life and read its contents. Technically, of course, those seals aren't going to stop God getting to His book whenever, if He wants to. But the idea of Him doing so seems to undermine the symbolism.

I agree that it is a pretty big "assumption" that the scripture would indicate that some names would be "not found" in the book of life- if in fact they would all be in there.

Too big an assumption against an obvious statement of scripture  to ask a discerning, reasonable theological adversary to accept IMO.

The problem some people have with that is that even as universalists they still seem to fear eternal torment- as if having your name blotted out of the book of life would mean that person would be eternally tormented. what it says is that they would be cast into the lake of fire.

What is the lake of fire?

The place where every hidden thing will be brought to light? An environment where the thoughts of many hearts will be revealed? A place where the adversaries will stand before the one whose eyes are as flames of fire and whose face shines like the sun?

So I believe that aionon fire(mt 25) and the lake of fire(rev 21) and fire and brimstone(rev 14) are metaphors for an experience where adversaries will be dealt with by "the sword of His mouth"- the word of God dividing asunder soul and spirit and making mani9fest the thoughts and intentions of the heart(Heb 4:12).

An experience neither comfortable nor eternal, but one from which every adversary emerge, "you will not escape until you have paid the last penny"...."many stripes few stripes",... repentant and reconciled.

I believe in the salvation of all because the scriptures testify to it. Therefore, I also believe in the chastisement of the wicked, because the scriptures testify to it. But mercy triumphs over judgement, and all God's judgments work toward the instruction and redemption of the wayward soul.